NationStates Jolt Archive

Link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/g8/story/0,13365,1520793,00.html)

Humiliated once more

The recent focus on Africa reinforces our perception of it as picturesque, pitiful, psychopathic and passive

Madeleine Bunting
Monday July 4, 2005
The Guardian

Call me naive, but I thought it was possible that 2005 could achieve even more than a historic breakthrough deal on debt relief and aid for Africa. The conjunction of this key political moment with a huge cultural festival, Africa 05 - television and radio programmes, festivals of music, museums all over the country hosting exhibitions - seemed to hold the promise of achieving one of those lasting shifts in public understanding of Africa.

What seemed within grasp was the start of a new relationship between the neighbouring continents of Europe and Africa - at last. Could Britain open a new page in its long engagement with Africa, finally drawing a line under the colonial themes of "saving" and "civilising" the continent? The wealth of African creativity evident everywhere - art, music, sculpture, film - would reinject into the public sphere a perception of the immense ingenuity, resourcefulness and reflective inquiry of Africans. It would shatter the myth of Africans as powerless victims at the mercy of western generosity and do-goodery.
It would help us to put back into the political landscape a sense of African agency. It would correct the media myth that the fate of millions of Africans is passively lying in the hands of eight men arriving in Gleneagles on Wednesday, and make clear that, given half a chance, Africans can shape the circumstances of their daily lives - and their often-precarious survival - far more powerfully and effectively than the G8.

The hope was that people would get to see more of Africa than starving black babies on their screens. We would get to hear about Africans much like ourselves - with the same hopes, fears and aspirations; we would, finally, begin to identify with them as human beings. That shift of perception offered a radical potential for a more equal engagement between Europe and Africa - the kind of sustained long-term relationship necessary to deal with the huge challenges to our species of climate change and Aids.

You may say that was ludicrously naive. And I begin to fear that you are right. What we are seeing now in this unprecedented media focus on Africa is a very old theme. In 1787 the slogan of the Quaker abolitionists was "Am I not a man and a brother?" But the radicalism of this rallying cry was belied by the image on the Anti-Slavery Society's seal of the African slave - he was on his knees. His liberty and dignity was ours for the giving, not his for the taking. The relationship at this G8, more than 200 years later, is similarly framed: African as supplicant to the (mostly) white men.

An entire continent has been reduced to a "scar on the conscience of the world", stripped of its dignity and left more powerless than at any intervening point since 1787. The images we saw of Africans at Live 8 on Saturday were the dying, the starving and the desperately impoverished. Postcolonialism in a globalising economy is proving even more humiliating for Africa than colonialism: its huge wealth in natural resources sequestered in secret bank accounts; its commodities commanding ever-smaller prices; its vicious wars with the exported arms of the industrial world; its government policies dictated from Washington and Geneva. Even its suffering exploited to jerk us into attention and to supply our emotional self-gratification. To the partying Hyde Park crowd, Kofi Annan said "thank you". But for what?

Blair's Africa agenda is yet another expression of what Professor John Lonsdale, the Cambridge historian of Africa, described in a lecture last week as "the self-righteously civilising mission of the past two centuries" of Europe towards its neighbour. He concluded that "it is a construction that infantilises not only Africans, unable to fend for themselves, but us too, like babies demanding the instant gratification of self-importance".

What the past few weeks have reinforced in popular perception is the absurd simplification of an entire continent so that it is explicable in terms of just four adjectives: picturesque, pitiful, psychopathic and, above all, passive. This is the formula used by such interlocutors as Bob Geldof and Rolf Harris (the BBC seems to think we won't watch Africa without a white face to show us around). In the Geldof episodes I forced myself to watch, I heard only two Africans speak - a few whispers from a frightened child, a few words from a wizened elder - and none in Harris. Sumptuous maybe, but these programmes were riddled with stereotypes - setting suns, crowds of smiling children, inexplicable crazed violence - and had little new to say. This kind of TV reflects a profound lack of curiosity in Africa; a sharp contrast to the early 20th century, when Africa revolutionised western art, or the 60s, when a wave of new African leaders drew nervous respect across Europe.

The lost opportunity that 2005 may come to represent is not for want of trying. Visit the near-empty galleries of the Crafts Council's Africa exhibition to marvel at the beauty and skill of the basket-making, the beaten silver, the woven clothes; visit the British Museum's Africa galleries to admire the beauty of El Anatsui's woven tapestries of bottle tops. All over the country this year are examples of African art's use of recycled materials - from bottle tops to bed springs, machine guns to petrol cans. But Africa 05's director, Augustus Caseley-Hayford, is bitterly frustrated at the refusal of the mainstream media to engage - a kind of wilful incomprehension that he can only see as racism.

It is almost as if the west can't accept African agency: we want the simplification of the four Ps because it so neatly caters for our fears, derived from the colonial history of the "dark continent" of Joseph Conrad fame. Is this the price that has to be paid for an instant of western attention?

The west, in its rapacious and impatient greed, destroys with contempt or indifference all that it can't appropriate for its own aggrandisement. Africa exposes - like no other continent - the hubristic arrogance of the western industrialised countries that dominate the globe and are forcing an entire species into one model of human development - a model with catastrophic shortcomings.

Now is precisely the point at which we need to learn about the genius of Africa's own history of development, which, Lonsdale suggests, lies in the extraordinary resilience and self-sufficiency to survive and adapt in habitats not always conducive to human life. The resilience is derived in part from an investment in relationships (rather than things); partly it lies in the qualities of self-disciplined willpower that sustain individuals against all the odds. These are skills we've forgotten or may never have had, but the coming centuries suggest we'll need to learn them from Africans.

If we recognised the immensity of this achievement of human endeavour over thousands of years, it might help to dismantle the self-satisfied superiority by which the west lays claim to a monopoly on concepts of progress and development. We - Africans and westerners - might begin to reframe the debate and ask ourselves if it isn't the grossly polluting G8 which is a scar on the conscience of the world.

I think that the western world should save every last ounce of livestock droppings for the next ten years and then dump it all in the middle of Africa, where it will slowly spread and cover the continient.
Thereby everything there will be fertilized and they can grow as much food as they please.
We can call it "Shit for Africa".

That was actually kinda interesting until it turned into the standard tirade against the West.

That was actually kinda interesting until it turned into the standard tirade against the West.
What do you take issue with?

That was actually kinda interesting until it turned into the standard tirade against the West.
If its rhetoric then its for good reason- namely that westerners arn't getting the message.

What do you take issue with?

The west, in its rapacious and impatient greed, destroys with contempt or indifference all that it can't appropriate for its own aggrandisement. Africa exposes - like no other continent - the hubristic arrogance of the western industrialised countries that dominate the globe and are forcing an entire species into one model of human development - a model with catastrophic shortcomings.

Now, there's an obvious and fair argument to be made regarding the Europe of centuries past and our exploitation of Africa, but the fact that most of us don't care about African art and culture is not at all contemptuous or nationalistic. Indeed, given the current state of the British art scene - wavering between the real self-aggrandizement of the Tate Modern and the simple lack of caring of the uninformed hordes - I am entirely not surprised that there's little public concern for getting to know the 'real Africa'. It's nothing to do with the West, or imperialism, it's to do with the current state of the art world.

Had this piece instead rallied us to restore our incredibly rich Western heritage of arts, I would have been behind it all the way. As it was, it took the easy - and popular - route of blaming the successful and wealthy.

Now, there's an obvious and fair argument to be made regarding the Europe of centuries past and our exploitation of Africa, but the fact that most of us don't care about African art and culture is not at all contemptuous or nationalistic. Indeed, given the current state of the British art scene - wavering between the real self-aggrandizement of the Tate Modern and the simple lack of caring of the uninformed hordes - I am entirely not surprised that there's little public concern for getting to know the 'real Africa'. It's nothing to do with the West, or imperialism, it's to do with the current state of the art world.

Had this piece instead rallied us to restore our incredibly rich Western heritage of arts, I would have been behind it all the way. As it was, it took the easy - and popular - route of blaming the successful and wealthy.
I'd feared a rather different response, but that's a very good analysis of the British art scene.

Mostly, I agree. Most recent (last 300 years) dark pages of human civilization have been written with Africa's blood. Slavery, colonialism, corporations, political agendas, racism, wars...

I only have meandering knowledge of their contribution to modern civilization, but I've studied enough history to know that most "civilized" countries have raped, milked and experimented on the continent at the expense of its denizens, and this still goes on pretty silently too.

The significance of turning some attention towards Africa, is not only cultural, commercial, or to silence the UN pressure toward the G's.

Seeing a continent drift towards oblivion as the globe's "landfill", only shows how far down the drain our "civilization" really is...

What do you take issue with?


Give me ten years without a genocide taking place on African soil, and I'll start listening to African Moral Superiority.

Give me ten years without a genocide taking place on African soil, and I'll start listening to African Moral Superiority.
So you don't lsiten to Europes modern superiority then?

So you don't lsiten to Europes modern superiority then?


Not at all.

I think anyone who preaches to be morally superior, is neither.

People are also starving to death in the former Solviet Union. What the hell is the West doing for them?! As I suspected, same old crap. If Africa wants to save itself its time to do it themselves and they can start by getting rid of their homegrown, petty, tin pot dictators!

People are also starving to death in the former Solviet Union. What the hell is the West doing for them?! As I suspected, same old crap. If Africa wants to save itself its time to do it themselves and they can start by getting rid of their homegrown, petty, tin pot dictators!

Nice rhetoric, but some points;

The former Soviet Union is made up of a number of naitons, which one are you referring to? Because none of the ones I've heard of have anywhere near the level of starvation that African nations do.

So you quesiton becomes, "Why haven't we helped nations that need less help first?" And it basically answers itself.

Secondly, many of those tinpot dictators are not homegrown. Many are import models, trained and schooled in the West.

Moreover, aside from the ideal of glorious revolution you tout...how would your proposal solve their problems of overburdening debt, infrastructure weaknesses, lack of solid bearucratic institutions, and lack of faith in the rule of law? I do belive Africa in general has better things to do than to go around starting civil wars every time they want reform. (of course if a few dictators were toppled in the reform process, nobody would complain)

Not at all.

I think anyone who preaches to be morally superior, is neither.

agreed,thats what annoys me with the west in general

Give me ten years without a genocide taking place on African soil, and I'll start listening to African Moral Superiority.
Blimey. That's missing the point and then some.

Not at all.

I think anyone who preaches to be morally superior, is neither.
Correct. My view entirly.

Nice rhetoric, but some points;

The former Soviet Union is made up of a number of naitons, which one are you referring to? Because none of the ones I've heard of have anywhere near the level of starvation that African nations do.

The Solviet Union in general. I know people there and they are starving! By the way, the their population is decreasing....

So you quesiton becomes, "Why haven't we helped nations that need less help first?" And it basically answers itself.

Secondly, many of those tinpot dictators are not homegrown. Many are import models, trained and schooled in the West.

Do you have any proof of that? I'm quite fed up of the additude that "if there's something wrong in africa (or elsewhere) it's the West, white man etc...fault". I'm not buying that crap anymore! Basically what people are saying is this; "If you have been treated like crap as a kid, than its a good accuse to be a total loser, bum, vagrent, Chav, criminal, drug addict etc...
Bullshit! You pick yourself up and do something about it! That's what Africa, and all poorer areas of the world need to do! They need to pick themselves up and work at improving their own lot in life!

Moreover, aside from the ideal of glorious revolution you tout...how would your proposal solve their problems of overburdening debt, infrastructure weaknesses, lack of solid bearucratic institutions, and lack of faith in the rule of law? I do belive Africa in general has better things to do than to go around starting civil wars every time they want reform. (of course if a few dictators were toppled in the reform process, nobody would complain)

Funny they seem very capable of murdering each other on a large scale as witnessed by the Hutsi/Tutsi genecides of the late 90's.

The Solviet Union in general. I know people there and they are starving! By the way, the their population is decreasing....

Do you have any proof of that? I'm quite fed up of the additute that "if there's something wrong in africa (or elsewhere) it's the West, white man etc...fault". I'm not buying that crap anymore! Basically what people are saying is this; "If you have been treated like crap as a kid, than its a good accuse to be a total loser, bum, vagrent, Chav, criminal, drug addict etc...
Bullshit! You pick yourself up and do something about it! That's what Africa, and all poorer areas of the world need to do! They need to pick themselves up and work at improving their own lot in life!

Funny they seem very capable of murdering each other on a large scale as witnessed by the Hutsi/Tutsi genecides of the late 90's.

A population that is decreasing is not that same thing as one that is dying of starvation. If you know people there, what nations? You should be able to provide at least a general are of "where" Which nation is the Africa-level starvation occuring?

So your argument is that africa should magically grow infrastructure? How does one just "make a bridge" that will hold up a truck? Who's gonna make that bridge, and how much will it cost? Where will the money come from?

How can you pick yourself up when you have debt collecters garnishing your wages, bills that never stop coming in, conflicts that eat up time and money, and no high paying jobs to dig your way out with? That is what Africa is facing, its not a loser that just needs to "get with the program", its a nation that is being crushed under the weight of its past.

I really don't care if you "buy" it or not; its the simple truth and your temper tantrums and moralizing aren't really going to help. Take a history class, read a book or something. If you lack the basic education needed to take part in an intelligent conversation, go bone up on some research and come back when you are ready.

And finally, you make my point for me. How was mass murdering and ethnic killing over power disputes going to help? It won't. Every new war in Africa just delays the progress they need to make. Overthrowing tinpot dictatorships is just going to add to the Chaos.

Do you have any proof of that? I'm quite fed up of the additude that "if there's something wrong in africa (or elsewhere) it's the West, white man etc...fault". I'm not buying that crap anymore! Basically what people are saying is this; "If you have been treated like crap as a kid, than its a good accuse to be a total loser, bum, vagrent, Chav, criminal, drug addict etc...
Bullshit! You pick yourself up and do something about it! That's what Africa, and all poorer areas of the world need to do! They need to pick themselves up and work at improving their own lot in life!
You think people in Africa aren't trying to do so? This is the problem with the media coverage of Africa (in the UK, at least). Africans are portrayed as helpless victims of circumstance, the only individuals capable of wielding influence being irredeemably corrupt thugs. The fact is that there are countless individuals and groups trying to make a difference, but their efforts are neutered by the absecne of essential infrastructure and finance, the debt burden, by the lack of reward for their efforts due to existing trade terms, the punitive restrictions placed by the North on their ability to not just produce but process their resources and, yes, by poor government as well.

Funny they seem very capable of murdering each other on a large scale as witnessed by the Hutsi/Tutsi genecides of the late 90's.
In what way are Africans unique in their capacity for genocide?

Before I say what I think I should point out that I am biased in the extreme, I am a 25 year old white Zimbabwean journo living in exile in Scotland working in Higher education. My partner is mixed Black Zimbabwean and Scotish, and our families were on opposite sides of our war "of Liberation" which liberated only those Mugabe chose to be liberated.

Africa's problems will not be solved by geriatric rockers or colourful rubber bands, they will not be solved by the eight most powerful people in the world and they will not be resolved by European/US based liberals pontificating on about Fair trade and democracy, colonialism and how bad white people are. Africa's problems all have different solutions and they require the developed world's power and the intelecual classes of Africa's knowledge. My country can be saved by quickly putting a bullet between the eyes of Robert Mugabe and wrestling away power from ZANU (PF) but, Nigeria's problems can be solved by slowly, quitely negotiating and creating more accountability, Congo and Sudan need to be broken up into governable states and Botswana needs to diversify its ecconomy (the best in Africa) and promote imigration. AIDS in Africa can't be solved with drugs or religion or condoms, it requires that the wealth of countries be spead outside of the main cities of Harare, Nairobi, Johannesburg etc, etc, to prevent the rural-urban pull, also we have got to give up the bad traditions we have like poligamy and stop listening to the charlletans (Traditional healers and televangalists) who preach warmed up centuaries old dogma and superstition.

Any one who is prepared to talk sense, country by country will be listened to by Africa, everyone else is just making noise. Also the Neo-Liberal free trade idea is bad, bad, bad! Give us a decade or two of reform and we will be ready for it, but until then all it is is rape and that will only lead to something far worse than the reaction from the middle east.

As an american I find that article immensely insulting. Not that I'm unaccustomed to being insulted, I'm an american. It's par for the course for people to salve their own conscience by saying "Well atleast we're not those bastard americans!"


If Africa needs help I suggest they help themselves for once instead of looking for the nearest handout. Who ever helps America? No one, no one helped us during the great depression we pulled ourselves out of poverty and starvation. Don't blame the successful because someone else is a damned loser. Africa has had civilization for millenia, they have every advantage that could be afforded to anyone. Vast resources, an unending stream of foreign money, a long and celebrated history of culture, and they squander it. Corruption is commonplace, they take what they have and they behave foolishly with it.

Gold, Diamonds, Oil, Africa is wealthy in such things, but they're greedy also, so they sell these things readily, but in their haste to make money they sell themselves short, and the people getting this money pocket it. It's not the West's fault Africa is a shithole, you need look no further than Africa to figure out why.

-snip-

Bravo. I was wondering when someone would show up with direct knowledge from the area. Your words have much wisdom in them. I made an error in a previous post where I mistyped Africa as a "nation" which is false. Africa is a collection of widely differing, very unique states that all have different problems, solutions, and needs.

I do believe certain actions could have benifits across all of Africa regardless, and one of those is debt relief. Rather than pouring money into Africa without carefully and closely deciding where the FDI goes, debt relief allows Africa a one-time opportunity to relieve itself of a burden that did not help it.

Take away the money drain, the budget squeeze, from African nations; and all will benifit. The only potential downside is the idea that lenders will grow afraid of a repeat of the debt forgivness, which could prove damaging...But considering all the work it has taken to get debt forgivness on the table in the first place, I question just how serious a threat that is.

What they really need to do is stop fucking themselves into poverty. Now who the hell is repsonsible for that, I wonder....

Some sort of birth control would help, but one thing is for sure, just throwing money at the situation never does any real good. They can also start by orginaiozing themselves on a local level to start producing enough food to feed themselves and slowly work up from there. Actually they can even use food as currency if money is not available.

When I read arcticals like the one posted on this thread, with its high morallizing, all it tells me as I can read behind the lines is that the "big bad west" is the source of all there problems!

And quite frankly, I.m sick and tired of hearing that bullcrap! Roll up your shirtsleaves and do something about it. That's what I did! I made it happen for me, god dammit! They can do the same.

Thanks, Roderick, that was illuminating.

Thanks, Khadgar, you're winning my 'offensive, ignorant, simple-minded arsehole of the day' contest.

EDIT: no, here comes a late bid from Sskiss. Fucking hell, what planet do you guys live on?

"Tomorrow, 280 million Africans will wake up for the first time in their lives without owing you or me a penny from the burden of debt that has crippled them for so long."

How's this for a good start? Can we rejoice a little now?

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:nkJWvefSnoQJ:news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4084574.stm+g8+debt+relief&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:nkJWvefSnoQJ:news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4084574.stm+g8+debt+relief&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Oh do I get a prize? I'd ever so like to have a prize. Prove me wrong, thirty years ago China was a shithole too, look at them today. I don't recall them crying for money all the time, all it took was a decision by the people to look for help no further than themselves. Ever hear the saying "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day"? Same principle, stop giving them money all the time! Sooner or later they have to learn they cannot continue to rely upon our gullibility.

"Tomorrow, 280 million Africans will wake up for the first time in their lives without owing you or me a penny from the burden of debt that has crippled them for so long."

How's this for a good start? Can we rejoice a little now?

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:nkJWvefSnoQJ:news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4084574.stm+g8+debt+relief&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:nkJWvefSnoQJ:news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4084574.stm+g8+debt+relief&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
Ah, but those wonderful conditionalities... rejoice? No.

Oh do I get a prize? I'd ever so like to have a prize. Prove me wrong, thirty years ago China was a shithole too, look at them today. I don't recall them crying for money all the time, all it took was a decision by the people to look for help no further than themselves. Ever hear the saying "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day"? Same principle, stop giving them money all the time! Sooner or later they have to learn they cannot continue to rely upon our gullibility.
1) That's an African proverb
2) The call is for better trade terms and debt relief; aid is not a priority
3) Try reading - and maybe, y'know, understanding - the earlier comments about how the poor are already trying to help themselves
4) Do you want your prize embossed with diamonds? Unfortunately, they'll have been processed in the developed world 'cos trade agreements with Sierra Leone penalise the locals if they do it themselves.

Oh do I get a prize? I'd ever so like to have a prize. Prove me wrong, thirty years ago China was a shithole too, look at them today. I don't recall them crying for money all the time, all it took was a decision by the people to look for help no further than themselves. Ever hear the saying "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day"? Same principle, stop giving them money all the time! Sooner or later they have to learn they cannot continue to rely upon our gullibility.

Oh Khadgar, he's just envious that we both believe that anyone can solve their problems with good ol' fashioned hard work! This hold true on both individual and collective levels. Handouts are not what Africa needs, what they really need is self-determination! They need to realize that you can't point the finger at anyone except yourself if something is wrong, you do something about it - if its broke, fix it, dammit! And for heavens sake, I wish they would stop dwelling on their past - its one of the things that's holding them back.

1) That's an African proverb
Maybe they should take the advice to heart.
2) The call is for better trade terms and debt relief; aid is not a priority
You're an idiot if you don't think that's the same thing. Instead of giving them money you're saying they can borrow all they like and not bother to repay it.
3) Try reading - and maybe, y'know, understanding - the earlier comments about how the poor are already trying to help themselves Hmm oddly I don't see that, do provide some links. I'd like to see where Africans are working by themselves to educate themselves, to promote birth control, to govern themselves without turning into genocidal maniacs.
4) Do you want your prize embossed with diamonds? Unfortunately, they'll have been processed in the developed world 'cos trade agreements with Sierra Leone penalise the locals if they do it themselves. Absolutely, they're dumbasses if they signed such an agreement.

Ah, but those wonderful conditionalities... rejoice? No.

What conditions? Wouldn't surprise me if there were, but I am unaware of any. Got links?

The concept of conditional debt relief is in itself not outrageous - things work like that in real life. This is a $55 billion forgiveness but the question is whether the conditions are unreasonable or harmful.

Oh Khadgar, he's just envious that we both believe that anyone can solve their problems with good ol' fashioned hard work!

This is why I'm often mistaken for a Republican.

All of this criticism seems like a lot of rubbish, especially that written by the American... I am an American currently in Mauritania, first off, and as to the argument about the Soviet union, I have also spent quite a lot of time in Tajikistan, the poorest country in the former Soviet Union, and more specifically in Badakhshan, the poorest region of that country. As to starvation... in my experience starvation as it is portrayed by the Western media is a rarity, while chronic malnutrition seems to be. A family I lived with in Tajikistan, for example, had plenty to eat, but only potatoes and occassionally some apples and pears, and powdered milk from the NGOs operating there. You would expect the people there to want more, and some do, turning to heroin smuggling and organised crime for a living, but the vast majority just continue to do what they can to survive, and in an area with average monthly earnings of less 20 to 30 dollars, there is a popular proverb that says 'Money is dirty'.
The main issue with the arguments I've read here is statements about Africa as a whole. While there is a sense of continental identity, there is also a range of diversity undreamt of in the West, and it seems ridiculous to me to say that Africa is morally superior or inferior... still, the fact is there are a lot of people in Africa, a lot of ethnic groups, 99 percent of the people I meet, poor, starving, or not, seem to glow with happiness and energy, friendliness and hospitality. I know several Africans who would be internationally classified as starving and poverty stricken who happily share their food with me from time to time.

'Don't blame the successful because someone else is a damned loser.'

Africans are losers... Americans are losers, as long as any humans are losing, in the material sense, like many Africans are losing, or in the spiritual and emotional sense, as many Americans are losing, all humans are losing. Of course, I suppose we'll have to come into contact with an alien race before we start to think of humanity as one group, but hopefully that will happen soon enough. According to my observations throughout my travels in the world, this article is more or less correct in it's opinions.

Oh do I get a prize? I'd ever so like to have a prize. Prove me wrong, thirty years ago China was a shithole too, look at them today. I don't recall them crying for money all the time, all it took was a decision by the people to look for help no further than themselves. Ever hear the saying "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day"? Same principle, stop giving them money all the time! Sooner or later they have to learn they cannot continue to rely upon our gullibility.

Ah, China, which already had rule of law, significant infrastructure (though they'e had to build so much more, that their government has subsidized the heck out of it), and most importantly that was not suffering under a massive debt load like Africa.

So, Khadgar...You've made Y(our) point. Get rid of the debt, and in 30 years, Africa, assuming its run like a command economy, has similar education levels, has significant infrastructure already in place, and somehow gains the rule of law...will be just like China, a rising power.

You have 1 valid point. If this were merely aid donations to Africa, this would be stupid. But its not that, is it? Its debt relief. This is the world preventing some African nations from sinking into spiraling debt. Thats very different from what you suggest it is.

I like the whole debt/cancellation relief thing for Africa, wasn't it offered to a number of african and otherwise poor countries? That would aid the whole starvation thing a bit, as countries wouldn't feel obliged to grow cash crops for western nations in order to make more money, instead they could feed themselves.

I think it would also be a good idea to keep misionaries from converting arficans. Aside from the whole destruction of culture there, you've also got catholic people out there saying that condoms cause aids and that it's wrong to use them, even with married couples... AIDS education in general would be an excellent idea.

Oh yes, the myth of the happy poor. I'm sure as a world traveler it makes you feel better that even though they're slowly wasting away because they can't get proper nutrition they're happy.

I've been poor, I have zero respect for anyone who can't figure out subsistance farming. It doesn't take much land, more kids you have the harder it is to make it work. I've worked the land with my own two hands, I've eaten the food I raise myself, had chicken so fresh it was squawking an hour before. Blood sweat and tears, that's the life of the poor, regardless of where. You can succeed regardless, if you're willing to work. I learned from my mother to never ever take a handout if there's any way in hell you can do without it. So yeah, we'd of shared our food with a stranger, even if we didn't have much. Generosity is known to those who have little, I have no issue at all with being generous, but at a certain point you either realize you're being taken advantage of or you're a fool.

Maybe that's the difference in having been poor, I have to get conned fewer times before I realize it's not going to do any good and keep my wallet a bit closer.

Providing technical assistance and training can help - knowledge is permanent where aid is often not. I'm referring to medical, agricultural, water,forestry, etc. Specifically training to the people who live in the poverty-stricken areas.

The Peace Corps is one good example of such, and an additional benefit of sending out volunteers from the developed world is the understanding that returns home.

http://www.peacecorps.gov/index.cfm?shell=learn.wherepc

Ah, China, which already had rule of law, significant infrastructure (though they'e had to build so much more, that their government has subsidized the heck out of it), and most importantly that was not suffering under a massive debt load like Africa.

So, Khadgar...You've made Y(our) point. Get rid of the debt, and in 30 years, Africa, assuming its run like a command economy, has similar education levels, has significant infrastructure already in place, and somehow gains the rule of law...will be just like China, a rising power.

You have 1 valid point. If this were merely aid donations to Africa, this would be stupid. But its not that, is it? Its debt relief. This is the world preventing some African nations from sinking into spiraling debt. Thats very different from what you suggest it is.

They have rule of law, it may not be law you or I like, but they have it. I don't like China's laws either, or Canada's for that matter, but I can't deny they are infact ruled by law. The only place in Africa that does not have a proper government I'm aware of is Somalia, and only about half of it. Somaliland has a government, police, passports and currency. South Africa is succeeding, there are large areas doing just fine without anyone giving them vast sums of money, or functionally the same by saying we'll just forget about all those billions we've given you.

Providing technical assistance and training can help - knowledge is permanent where aid is often not. I'm referring to medical, agricultural, water,forestry, etc. Specifically training to the people who live in the poverty-stricken areas.

The Peace Corps is one good example of such, and an additional benefit of sending out volunteers from the developed world is the understanding that returns home.

http://www.peacecorps.gov/index.cfm?shell=learn.wherepc

That I agree with whole heartedly, the only way we'll ever make a positive difference to Africa is with education, and until people realize that dollars are piss poor teachers we'll never stop feeding the problem.

Quote [If Africa needs help I suggest they help themselves for once instead of looking for the nearest handout. Who ever helps America? No one, no one helped us during the great depression we pulled ourselves out of poverty and starvation. Don't blame the successful because someone else is a damned loser.]

Some of you really scare me, the kind of anti American rhetoric that is thrown arround Europe is justified every time you make some of these stupid statements.

Africa is fucked primarily because of the cold war and political expeediancy, when Russia, China, the UK, France, the US, Spain, Portugal, Cuba etc etc all supported who ever served their purposes best, that is why Lamumba was exicuted, why Samora Michel's plane was sabotaged, why coup and assasination after coup and assasination has taken place, the genocide in Rwanda was as much a proxi war between the France and the US as it was between Hutu and Tutsi, Apathied only really ended when soviet Russia collapsed because the US and Britain no longer needed someone to do its wet work against the Russian backed Angolans and Mozambiqans. Like many Africans of all colours I am just plain tired of this shit, why has nothing been done about Dafour - because China threaterns to veto a UN resolution because she gets oil from Dafour, why has nothing been done about Zimbabwe - beause we haven't enough resourses to make it worth falling out with South Africa for and they profit from our poor state. There are plenty of Liberals and Conservative or all kinds in the Western democracies who want to help, but it all gets screwed over by Kisssenger-esk prudence, and duplicity.

Quote [If Africa needs help I suggest they help themselves for once instead of looking for the nearest handout. Who ever helps America? No one, no one helped us during the great depression we pulled ourselves out of poverty and starvation. Don't blame the successful because someone else is a damned loser.]

Some of you really scare me, the kind of anti American rhetoric that is thrown arround Europe is justified every time you make some of these stupid statements.

Africa is fucked primarily because of the cold war and political expeediancy, when Russia, China, the UK, France, the US, Spain, Portugal, Cuba etc etc all supported who ever served their purposes best, that is why Lamumba was exicuted, why Samora Michel's plane was sabotaged, why coup and assasination after coup and assasination has taken place, the genocide in Rwanda was as much a proxi war between the France and the US as it was between Hutu and Tutsi, Apathied only really ended when soviet Russia collapsed because the US and Britain no longer needed someone to do its wet work against the Russian backed Angolans and Mozambiqans. Like many Africans of all colours I am just plain tired of this shit, why has nothing been done about Dafour - because China threaterns to veto a UN resolution because she gets oil from Dafour, why has nothing been done about Zimbabwe - beause we haven't enough resourses to make it worth falling out with South Africa for and they profit from our poor state. There are plenty of Liberals and Conservative or all kinds in the Western democracies who want to help, but it all gets screwed over by Kisssenger-esk prudence, and duplicity.

Gee it must suck to always be the helpless victim. Darfur is happening because Africans are doing it to themselves. Tribal conflict, same thing. Spare me the conspiracy theories. Plain and simple fact is if Africans would organize, value education over supersitition and myth life would improve by leaps and bounds. Instead it's an endless cycle of the same short sighted problems over and over again, and asking the western world you hate so much to pony up some cash when you run out.

Gee it must suck to always be the helpless victim. Darfur is happening because Africans are doing it to themselves. Tribal conflict, same thing. Spare me the conspiracy theories. Plain and simple fact is if Africans would organize, value education over supersitition and myth life would improve by leaps and bounds. Instead it's an endless cycle of the same short sighted problems over and over again, and asking the western world you hate so much to pony up some cash when you run out.


Bull, and the sooner you realise that the better. Dafour is probably the one conflict at the moment that the US is doing some good, and taking a principled stand, but to dismiss the outside world's influence and manipulation of ethnic and racial differeces is foolish. My ancestors did exactly the same thing a hundred years ago so don't dear tell me this is purely indigenous. Darfour is clearances, the same as the clearances in the Scottish highlands, Ireland and the American plains, the Zimbabwean higlands, but the question has to be why and the only logical answer is oil, because there is nothing else there in Dafour, so for who? The US - hell their protesting and Iraq disprove that point, Britain or France - not their style, too dirty and nowhere near subtle enough, Russia - too weak in Africa at the moment, China - now we are talking, anyone else Saudi - unlikely as it it brings competative source of oil into the market, Osama - ten years ago maybe, but General Bashir wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole here and now.

Now dear tell me this is just about Africans killing Africans (anyway the Khatoum government considers themselves Arab not Africans)

Quote [If Africa needs help I suggest they help themselves for once instead of looking for the nearest handout. Who ever helps America? No one, no one helped us during the great depression we pulled ourselves out of poverty and starvation. Don't blame the successful because someone else is a damned loser.]

Some of you really scare me, the kind of anti American rhetoric that is thrown arround Europe is justified every time you make some of these stupid statements.

Africa is fucked primarily because of the cold war and political expeediancy, when Russia, China, the UK, France, the US, Spain, Portugal, Cuba etc etc all supported who ever served their purposes best, that is why Lamumba was exicuted, why Samora Michel's plane was sabotaged, why coup and assasination after coup and assasination has taken place, the genocide in Rwanda was as much a proxi war between the France and the US as it was between Hutu and Tutsi, Apathied only really ended when soviet Russia collapsed because the US and Britain no longer needed someone to do its wet work against the Russian backed Angolans and Mozambiqans. Like many Africans of all colours I am just plain tired of this shit, why has nothing been done about Dafour - because China threaterns to veto a UN resolution because she gets oil from Dafour, why has nothing been done about Zimbabwe - beause we haven't enough resourses to make it worth falling out with South Africa for and they profit from our poor state. There are plenty of Liberals and Conservative or all kinds in the Western democracies who want to help, but it all gets screwed over by Kisssenger-esk prudence, and duplicity.

I don't understand what it is you are speaking of in most of this. I understand about Darfour, and agree it's a bad situation. Maybe that's the issue, we in the west don't have a clue what the real situation is and therefor trot out some simple answers to complex problems.

There's a lot to do, and even wealthy western nations need to prioritize spending - Africa is only going to get so much. Personally I don't have any warm feelings for governments in Africa; they are there to carry out the functions of government and many of them do that poorly.

Question is how to help the people with the money we decide to spend, or how to help in other ways.

Quote:
"Plain and simple fact is if Africans would organize, value education over supersitition and myth life would improve by leaps and bounds. Instead it's an endless cycle of the same short sighted problems over and over again..."

Value education like they do in America, where people get angry that creationism isn't taught? Or the fact that Americans have enacted laws that prevent equality, even though that was one of the founding principles of that country?

Yah, yah... I see what you're saying... boiling down every problem to it's jingoistic dichotomous root... that's the ticket.

Seriously, stop watching Fox News.

I don't understand what it is you are speaking of in most of this. I understand about Darfour, and agree it's a bad situation. Maybe that's the issue, we in the west don't have a clue what the real situation is and therefor trot out some simple answers to complex problems.

There's a lot to do, and even wealthy western nations need to prioritize spending - Africa is only going to get so much. Personally I don't have any warm feelings for governments in Africa; they are there to carry out the functions of government and many of them do that poorly.

Question is how to help the people with the money we decide to spend, or how to help in other ways.

Sorry I went off in a tangent on the last two messages responding to some pointlessness. All I am saying is that 1) Africa's problems are more complicated than debt releif can solve 2) Africas problems if not fixed (or seen to be acted upon) will create problems in the long run for the rest of the world 3) they can be solved, one problem at a time one country at a time if there is the will on the part of the developed world to listen to the few Africans who know what we are talking about and then act decisively 4) as long as Africa is used as a battlefeild between the five major powers and the hand full of other countries out there nothing will be done 5) I don't want to die of bordom or a heartattack in exile neither do the hundreds of thousands of the best educated and intelectual exiles sidelined because the outside world either can't be bothered or profits from the tyrants.

We don't need pity and we don't want food aid, while rock and/or elastic bands are a sweet idea what we really need is for you to make your leaders care enough to DO something, thats done by you at the ballot box!

Stable, multi-ethnic governments is what African countries need. Without that, no amount of money is going to be enough.

Sadly, given the history of ethnic conflict and quarreling interests (foreign and domestic), I believe that's going to be even harder to get than debt relief.

Quote:
"Plain and simple fact is if Africans would organize, value education over supersitition and myth life would improve by leaps and bounds. Instead it's an endless cycle of the same short sighted problems over and over again..."

Value education like they do in America, where people get angry that creationism isn't taught? Or the fact that Americans have enacted laws that prevent equality, even though that was one of the founding principles of that country?

Yah, yah... I see what you're saying... boiling down every problem to it's jingoistic dichotomous root... that's the ticket.

Seriously, stop watching Fox News.

Seriously, stop being a dumbass. Point out the most rural and backward part of the nation and claim it as the gold standard for the whole thing. Way to generalize. Go you!

Of course if you have a better solution than giving Africans education rather than money, I'm open to suggestions, but money won't do it. Education will.

Of course if you have a better solution than giving Africans education rather than money, I'm open to suggestions, but money won't do it. Education will.
OK, but how do you propose that heavily indebted nations fund this education? Many pay over half of their entire budget simply servicing - not even paying off - their debt. I absolutely agree that education - universal and not just to primary level - has to be at the heart of any attempt to resolve the continent's problems, but as things stand, most nations can't afford to give it the funding needed.

Then, of course, there's the issue of health.

I apologise for my brazen flaming earlier. I think some of your comments have been pretty despicable, but you didn't deserve to be flagrantly insulted in such a manner. Needless to say, this is an issue I care a great deal about.

I love this... On one side, Europe throws crap on the US while the US does the same for Europe. When we aren't busy blaming eachother, we patronize the people of Africa by pretending that money alone is what is needed. Live 8, the G8, or whoever else you want to throw in, will not be able to help. Africa cannot be helped by throwing money at it. Rather than throwing in lots of money and saying "There, I feel so good about myself." you need to throw in less money, and use it more wisely. Minimum effort, maximimum result.

Africa's problems stem partially from debt, and forgiving it is a good step in the right direction. What is needed more is improved sex education, specifically in the prevention of AIDS, the overthrow of the military regimes which continue to suck any money in the economy out, and the creation of stable states which protect their people from harm and prevent the destablization of the economy by further violence. The last one is not necessarily one you can solve by keeping the current states. Nationalism is a force which cannot be suppressed for long, we've seen that in World War One, we've seen it in the fall of the Soviet Union, and we will continue to see it in the course of human history. Sometimes, a united state cannot happen, and divided states must be made to keep the peace and prosperity.

Bottom line is, your money might be a good thing, but not if it gets used stupidly. Just like the saying about fish and fishing we must not keep giving Africa fish, we must give it the ability to fish for itself. Stop blaming each other, stop with the feel-good charity, stop patronizing Africa by pretending that its problems are simple or true throughout the continent, if you intend to help, do so in a way that WILL help. Simlarly, cut-and-paste programs will not help, the World Bank seems to have the right idea, but they need to understand that they cannot take a program and paste it into the government of each country expecting it to work the same.

I wish there were more kinda sensible people out there.

Now, there's an obvious and fair argument to be made regarding the Europe of centuries past and our exploitation of Africa
The argument is still quite current. Look at the effect of DeBeers' greed. They have done pretty much everything from toppling governments to engineering gang wars all in hte name of holding their monopoly as the sellers of diamonds. Completely fucked over the zimbabwean market sometime in the 80s.

Sensible people is very sensible

The argument is still quite current. Look at the effect of DeBeers' greed. They have done pretty much everything from toppling governments to engineering gang wars all in hte name of holding their monopoly as the sellers of diamonds. Completely fucked over the zimbabwean market sometime in the 80s.

Not entirely true Zim's ecconomy did very well in the eighties, in 1994 the IMF came in and from that point we were screwed because they tried to open up things too quickly, in 1998 we reached the height of our post colonial econamic range so far but that was due to private enterprise (both black and white) not the state and not the IMF. Also of all the companies in the world De Beers' has the clossest historical link to Zim, because it is the last part of Rhodes economic Empire (the British South Africa Company). I genuinely think that if we got rid of Mugabe they would be the first company in and that they would be trying to do good - which is out of character for them I'll admit. The Openheimers in South Africa really love Zimbabwe and last time I checked they still have controling shares in De Beers'

The Solviet Union in general. I know people there and they are starving! By the way, the their population is decreasing....


...
Do me a favour.

Russia and the CIS on the whole, however that may be, has no starvation, esspecially on the scale of Ethiopia-Somali. I meet people from all part of Russia and the former Soviet Union on a daily basis - I am a doctor in a leading Moscow hospital. I've got friends, with whom I studied medicine, practising in our remote provinces. I know what I am talking about.

The reasons for Russian population decrease are: vodka, depression, and kitchen knives.

do you like chocolate i do look at my name hes called :fluffle: :sniper: :headbang: :gundge:

... The wealth of African creativity evident everywhere - art, music, sculpture, film - would reinject into the public sphere a perception of the immense ingenuity, resourcefulness and reflective inquiry of Africans. It would shatter the myth of Africans as powerless victims at the mercy of western...
Uh, okeydoky.
We'll leave you alone, and you can get back to whatever it was you were doing in Rowanda.
I'm unsure of one point though.
Could you show me a link to the Arms Manufacturer over here that getting filthy rich by exporting machetes to Africa?

Sorry I went off in a tangent on the last two messages responding to some pointlessness. All I am saying is that 1) Africa's problems are more complicated than debt releif can solve 2) Africas problems if not fixed (or seen to be acted upon) will create problems in the long run for the rest of the world 3) they can be solved, one problem at a time one country at a time if there is the will on the part of the developed world to listen to the few Africans who know what we are talking about and then act decisively 4) as long as Africa is used as a battlefeild between the five major powers and the hand full of other countries out there nothing will be done 5) I don't want to die of bordom or a heartattack in exile neither do the hundreds of thousands of the best educated and intelectual exiles sidelined because the outside world either can't be bothered or profits from the tyrants.

We don't need pity and we don't want food aid, while rock and/or elastic bands are a sweet idea what we really need is for you to make your leaders care enough to DO something, thats done by you at the ballot box!

No problem, thanks for clearing that up for me. And I'm sorry to hear about your exile - that's got to be an intensely frustrating position to be in.

Taking your last sentence first, I think the problem for us in the west is gaining an understanding of what is actually happening thousands of miles away.

Our media are good at keeping us informed of domestic politics and not particularly good on the Africa issues; frankly you hear a lot of the same sort of thing and become numb after a bit - more aid needed, not enough aid given,westerners should feel guilty, etc. Coupled with the human tendency to focus on matters directly affecting ones self this leaves most of us not paying much attention to Africa's issues at the ballot box. Simply put, we need to have a better understanding of the issues, and I appreciate hearing from you since you have first-hand knowledge to share.

Your points:

1. "Africa's problems are more complicated than debt releif can solve" - Ok, so it's a bigger problem than we think. On the other hand, it is (I hope) a selfless act that keeps a lot of money in-country - but it's up to the govt.'s how wisely they use it.

2. "Africas problems if not fixed (or seen to be acted upon) will create problems in the long run for the rest of the world". Obviously will need to be fixed on an individual basis - but how much business should we have in fixing problems? We seem to get into mischief running around fixing things because the fixes tend to be oriented toward benefiting the fixer. Why not provide assistance and education and so help the people to repair their own problems; that's a long-term thing, though, requiring a decade or two.

3. "they can be solved, one problem at a time one country at a time if there is the will on the part of the developed world to listen to the few Africans who know what we are talking about and then act decisively". That make a hell of a lot of sense, so it is virtually guaranteed not to occur. I agree completely.

4. "as long as Africa is used as a battlefeild between the five major powers and the hand full of other countries out there nothing will be done" Well, there are our leaders getting into mischief out of sight of their constituents. To our, and the media's, discredit that we aren't paying more attention. But in reality there's little to be done about this and we'll have to find work-arounds to help where we can in spite of this.

No problem, thanks for clearing that up for me.

To our, and the media's, discredit that we aren't paying more attention. But in reality there's little to be done about this and we'll have to find work-arounds to help where we can in spite of this.

Fox will do that to people.... bad habit. Truth be said, I fear you are right. I have a Canadian army officer friend who suggests that I just move there and start afresh, forget home because it will just make me twisted - the scary thing is he is probably right. The best thing you can do if you are not in government is tell people what is going on, and read stuff from all around the world. I just got back from India and the poverty there is worse, but they are dealing with it slowly.

The one thing that gives me hope about Zimbabwe, but not the rest of Africa, the regeme is based around one old man, and even though he isn't making these decisions, as long as he is in power no one will stop him. The grim reaper does visit us all eventually, and when Mugabe dies, his party will rip itself to pieces as all the yes men squabble for power, that will present an opening for the forces of democracy. I hope.


P.S thought I would add this link for some sort of idea of what is going on

http://www.newzimbabwe.com/pages/bmarket29.12818.html

This is some of the stuff we have to deal with

http://www.thezimbabwean.co.uk/1-july-2005/streetkids.html

The one thing that gives me hope about Zimbabwe, but not the rest of Africa, the regeme is based around one old man, and even though he isn't making these decisions, as long as he is in power no one will stop him. The grim reaper does visit us all eventually, and when Mugabe dies, his party will rip itself to pieces as all the yes men squabble for power, that will present an opening for the forces of democracy. I hope.


We can only hope, but history does not indicate this is true. Did communism in the USSR fall with Stalin's death? Did democracy come to Ghana after Nkruma's government was overturned? Zimbabwe will need more than just the death of Mugabe, it will need a dedicated effort by the Movement for Democratic Reform, and even then I do not see democracy without the shedding of more blood.

Some of us (my self included) argued against war in 2000, now I wish we hadn't. Unfortunately without bases in a bourdering country we can't even fight let alone win and even South Africa would be reticent about takin on the ZNA - they are very good. Our best hope is that the junior officers mutiny, opt for patriotism over professionalism.

Some of us (my self included) argued against war in 2000, now I wish we hadn't. Unfortunately without bases in a bourdering country we can't even fight let alone win and even South Africa would be reticent about takin on the ZNA - they are very good. Our best hope is that the junior officers mutiny, opt for patriotism over professionalism.

Well, it has happened before historically, but is it likely in Zimbabwe. I am working off of a secondary-school education on Africa with an emphasis on Western African history, so I can't claim as much knowledge about Zimbabwe as I would like.

Well, it has happened before historically, but is it likely in Zimbabwe. I am working off of a secondary-school education on Africa with an emphasis on Western African history, so I can't claim as much knowledge about Zimbabwe as I would like.
There are secondary schools teaching African history of any kind? That's an improvement on my time at school (which wasn't that long ago).

There are secondary schools teaching African history of any kind? That's an improvement on my time at school (which wasn't that long ago).

Yeah, but not very in-depth. We get it as a part of our European history course thrown in at the end with little detail so they can call it "World History". They do the same with Asian history by tagging on South America for about a month and calling it "Pac Rim Studies". Hardly doing justice to their historys, but hey we get 3.5 years for American History... All 300 years of it. :rolleyes:

Well if you ever want some history books on Southern Africa, you know where to come. My father is writing a history of the British South Africa Company, I have to edit it to make sure he doesn't piss of Uncle Bob's cronies.

There are secondary schools teaching African history of any kind? That's an improvement on my time at school (which wasn't that long ago).
Not really. They just deal with European history in Africa. Nothing about what went on before colonization.

Before I say what I think I should point out that I am biased in the extreme, I am a 25 year old white Zimbabwean journo living in exile in Scotland working in Higher education. My partner is mixed Black Zimbabwean and Scotish, and our families were on opposite sides of our war "of Liberation" which liberated only those Mugabe chose to be liberated.

Africa's problems will not be solved by geriatric rockers or colourful rubber bands, they will not be solved by the eight most powerful people in the world and they will not be resolved by European/US based liberals pontificating on about Fair trade and democracy, colonialism and how bad white people are. Africa's problems all have different solutions and they require the developed world's power and the intelecual classes of Africa's knowledge. My country can be saved by quickly putting a bullet between the eyes of Robert Mugabe and wrestling away power from ZANU (PF) but, Nigeria's problems can be solved by slowly, quitely negotiating and creating more accountability, Congo and Sudan need to be broken up into governable states and Botswana needs to diversify its ecconomy (the best in Africa) and promote imigration. AIDS in Africa can't be solved with drugs or religion or condoms, it requires that the wealth of countries be spead outside of the main cities of Harare, Nairobi, Johannesburg etc, etc, to prevent the rural-urban pull, also we have got to give up the bad traditions we have like poligamy and stop listening to the charlletans (Traditional healers and televangalists) who preach warmed up centuaries old dogma and superstition.

Any one who is prepared to talk sense, country by country will be listened to by Africa, everyone else is just making noise. Also the Neo-Liberal free trade idea is bad, bad, bad! Give us a decade or two of reform and we will be ready for it, but until then all it is is rape and that will only lead to something far worse than the reaction from the middle east.

Thank you very much for this excellent post.

Africa simply cannot survive as it is. There need to be major changes from within, beginning with a unification of the continent. There are two many small, squablling countries in Africa to achieve anything. It is a similar situation with African-Americans over here in the U.S. You can't give the people everything, they have to be charged with unifying and taking the place in this world that is rightfully theirs, alongside the other races and civilizations of this world. The biggest help Africa will recieve must come from itself.

Not really. They just deal with European history in Africa. Nothing about what went on before colonization.


Not in my school we didn't. Our history lessons were divided into two sections the History of the ruling party, and the history of everything else.

Most countries do not teach European history anymore becase 1) the French Revolution (give the people dangerous ideas about freedom, Equality and Fraternity) 2) Magna Carta (another bad idea) 3) the second world war (shouldn't show colonial powers wining wars, very demoralising).

We did learn about the Soviet revolutions - but not the civil war, the rise of Chairman Mao - but not about the purges, Martin Luther King Jnr and Malcom X - because the evil white people killed these great men. The anti-colonial movements but not how their leaders invariably ended up put against a wall (because we wouldn't want to give people dangerous ideas).

Have you any idea what it is like being one of about a third of the class who are white and having some near illiterate low level party yes man teach you his-story that effectively says because of your skin colour you are automatically an imperialist dog and a oppressor even if you were two months old when the war ended and never knew what Rhodesia was let alone learned to love it.

Before you ask my country name is my real name - my father's last act of patriatism not mine, and I couldn't think up a sutable country name.

Africa is fucked primarily because of the cold war and political expeediancy, when Russia, China, the UK, France, the US, Spain, Portugal, Cuba etc etc all supported who ever served their purposes best,

When all else fail, blame the West. When are people going to start taking responsibility for their own actions? Zimbabwe is being destroyed by the people that live there. Dafour is being destroyed by the people that live there. A once prosperous Liberia was destroyed by people who live there. Need I continue? And when they need help, who do they call to bail them out, not Russia, not China, not Brazil.

When all else fail, blame the West. When are people going to start taking responsibility for their own actions? Zimbabwe is being destroyed by the people that live there. Dafour is being destroyed by the people that live there. A once prosperous Liberia was destroyed by people who live there. Need I continue? And when they need help, who do they call to bail them out, not Russia, not China, not Brazil.

... And we return to square one. Rather than adressing an issue for which the west is partially responsible, we try to cast the blame and drop the hot potatoe on someone else.

African poverty is real, Africa faces other serious issues as well, and they are all connected. It no longer matters who is at fault, it now matters that it be fixed. This can be done with the smart use of money.

Being fair, the west is partially responsible. Being equally fair, Africa has made its own bed partially. So, rather than blaming each other, fix the problem.

...the overthrow of the military regimes which continue to suck any money in the economy out, and the creation of stable states which protect their people from harm and prevent the destablization of the economy by further violence.

First, I agree with what you are saying? Secondly, how do you propose this be done, a revolution or outside intervention? Any other way to do it.

First, I agree with what you are saying? Secondly, how do you propose this be done, a revolution or outside intervention? Any other way to do it.

A difficult question to answer. I am all for self-determination, but that doesn't stop western pro-democracy groups from offering a helping hand.

[QUOTE=Rhoderick] The grim reaper does visit us all eventually, and when Mugabe dies, his party will rip itself to pieces as all the yes men squabble for power, that will present an opening for the forces of democracy. I hope.[QUOTE]

Or civil war. :(

African poverty is real, Africa faces other serious issues as well, and they are all connected. It no longer matters who is at fault, it now matters that it be fixed. This can be done with the smart use of money.

I do agree that African poverty is real. I also agree that we must stop pointing the finger and start working on reasonable and rational solutions. That was my point. Perhaps I didn't make it very well.

Not in my school we didn't. Our history lessons were divided into two sections the History of the ruling party, and the history of everything else.
I see. I didn't know your country, so it is fitting that the focus is different. Too bad about the history of the ruling party, though. I expect those times will change.

Most countries do not teach European history anymore becase 1) the French Revolution (give the people dangerous ideas about freedom, Equality and Fraternity) 2) Magna Carta (another bad idea) 3) the second world war (shouldn't show colonial powers wining wars, very demoralising).
As far as I know they're still teaching European history in most of Latin America, including the French Revolution, Illustration, the World Wars and the Soviet Revolution. The Magna Carta is not taught because that's more relevant to the English world, not so much to the rest.

For the same reason we don't learn about Malcolm X or Martin Luther King Jr in school. They have very limited relevance outside the US. However, Latin American countries are not lacking in leaders, liberators and human rights fighters of their own, and one usually gets to know about them.

Perhaps when our countries were as young as yours education was like that too. I hope things improve and stability, equality and democracy are soon achieved.

Rhoderick, since you're more educated on the realities of Africa and are for real solutions to problems I wanted to ask your input on something.

When it comes to Sudan, it isn't tribal conflict or anything close. It's Islam. Even though it has been happening in Africa since the 1200's this seems to be more of the same. The ultra violent "convert or die" jihad against all non Muslims. Until recent times the peoples of southern Sudan were able to repel the advances but with the advent of automatic weapons, aircraft, etc they've become hopelessly outclassed. The government of Khartoum regularly bombs their fields, livestock and villages in the ongoing war of attrition to starve the southern tribes to death. The Islamic government denies any food or medical aid from getting into the nation to hasten this goal. So I want to know what you think of a different solution outside of international inspections, treaties and other things ignored by Islamofasicts.

Arm the people of Southern Sudan. Arm the Nuba, Dinka and Shilluks not just with small arms but with more advanced weapons like Stinger missiles to shoot down the government bombers and AT4/Law launchers to fight the tanks sent south from Khartoum. Also we should train them with the necessary tactics and fighting skills to survive in battle. These people are struggling just to live in the face of total extinction, why not give them a fighting chance. If they were able to resist on an equal footing the genocide would come to a screeching halt.

Arm the people of Southern Sudan. Arm the Nuba, Dinka and Shilluks not just with small arms but with more advanced weapons like Stinger missiles to shoot down the government bombers and AT4/Law launchers to fight the tanks sent south from Khartoum. Also we should train them with the necessary tactics and fighting skills to survive in battle. These people are struggling just to live in the face of total extinction, why not give them a fighting chance. If they were able to resist on an equal footing the genocide would come to a screeching halt.

I hope you are not suggesting the US do this. If we were to do so we would be portrayed as waging a war against Islam, etc., etc, etc. Kind of catch 22, no matter what we do we will be condemned. So, how about the European countries taking up the gauntlet? Better yet, a coalition of some stable African countries, some Asian countries, or South/Central American countries. Hey, Canada is a big stable country. Oh, and don’t forget the not so radical Gulf states.

bump

Link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/g8/story/0,13365,1520793,00.html)
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Africa? Eh, who gives a damn?

Rhoderick, since you're more educated on the realities of Africa and are for real solutions to problems I wanted to ask your input on something.

Thank you Northern Fox, but that is not true, my knowledge is on Southern and Central Africa really.

When it comes to Sudan, it isn't tribal conflict or anything close. It's Islam. Even though it has been happening in Africa since the 1200's this seems to be more of the same. The ultra violent "convert or die" jihad against all non Muslims. Until recent times the peoples of southern Sudan were able to repel the advances but with the advent of automatic weapons, aircraft, etc they've become hopelessly outclassed. The government of Khartoum regularly bombs their fields, livestock and villages in the ongoing war of attrition to starve the southern tribes to death. The Islamic government denies any food or medical aid from getting into the nation to hasten this goal. So I want to know what you think of a different solution outside of international inspections, treaties and other things ignored by Islamofasicts.

From my reading of what is going on in Dafour, there are three major factors, Racism (Arab vs Black), there is conflicting between different agrerian modle (Pastuaralists vs farmers) and there is Chinese interfereance in Africa for oil. In Southern Sudan the issues were definately racism (Arab vs Black), religious rivalry (Christian and Traditionalists vs Muslims) and Nationalism (Southern Sudan should really be a seperate country and that is Britain's and the OAU's fault).

Arm the people of Southern Sudan. Arm the Nuba, Dinka and Shilluks not just with small arms but with more advanced weapons like Stinger missiles to shoot down the government bombers and AT4/Law launchers to fight the tanks sent south from Khartoum. Also we should train them with the necessary tactics and fighting skills to survive in battle. These people are struggling just to live in the face of total extinction, why not give them a fighting chance. If they were able to resist on an equal footing the genocide would come to a screeching halt.

As long as the African Union is dominated by a few southern leaders (Mugabe and Mbeki) and northern Arab dictators (Giddaffi, Oma Bashir, Mubarak and the King of Morroco) there will not be change. really Kenya, Nigeria, Senegal and Ghana should try to wrestle power away. The AU adopted the OAU's principle that colonial bourders could never be changed because of Biafra (Nigeria 1960s) and that is the reason why Sudan and Congo are so screwed up


When all else fail, blame the West. When are people going to start taking responsibility for their own actions? Zimbabwe is being destroyed by the people that live there. Dafour is being destroyed by the people that live there. A once prosperous Liberia was destroyed by people who live there. Need I continue? And when they need help, who do they call to bail them out, not Russia, not China, not Brazil..

Listen carefully, Africa's problems are about 1/3 African origin, 1/3 external origin 1/3 bad luck, overly simple equation, but close to the thruth. We Africans are portrayed as savages killing each other over pointless rivalries, and that is not entirely untrue, but likewise if you look at each major African incident wheither it was end of white rule in South Africa (A good thing) or the killing of thousands in Rwanda or Congo you can either see an external body making a profit, cutting its losses or trying to wash its hands of responsibility. Let me give you the best example I can, home, When the Rhodesians were refused independance by Britain the Republicans took ofice and the kicked out the Governour General, the Royalists and undermined the Liberals who were going to slowly introduce Universal Adult Sufferage (G Todd) and declared Unilateral Declaration of Independance AFTER the US and SA promissed them they would be supported (Rhodesia and the US are the only two Colonial administrations to kick the British out) this aid came in against the sanctions imposed by Britain. Four Rhodesian resistance movements were born, the Liberals who thought through law and reason they could change Ian Smith's rule, they were supported by the vatican and the Church of England and indirectly the Labour government in Britain (Ndabalingi Sitole Zims First Black Priminster was one of them), the ANC an exension of the ANC in South Africa with no backing, (Patriotic Frount) Zimbabwean African People's Union who were predominatly Ndebele (Related to Zulus) who were Soviet backed, Zimbabwean African National Union (Then lead by Leopold Takawira and Tongogara - both great reasonable patriots) who were backed by the Chinese. When the war seemed lost in 1977 the US shifted their backing away from the Rhodesian Frount (Republicans) to ZANU (by then Mugabe had killed off his opposition within the party) because they did not want the Russian backed forces of (PF) ZAPU to control a border with South Africa and give a staging ground to the South African Socialist party (Lead by Steve Biko). While the War was ours entirely, the support recieved on all sides drew the conflict out consderably and the two better trained and equiped armies of ZAPU and the RF were supperseeded by the peasant army of ZANU because of the cold war.

Add your own commentary from now on. Otherwise, this is nothing more than spam.
Would a single line stating something along the lines of "I would be interested to see what others make of this article" be sufficient? The intention of posting the piece was to provoke debate; my own opinion/commentary is almost incidental and dependent on the responses of others. OK, so I got stroppy (bad me, slapped wrist), but that's a separate issue.

Would a single line stating something along the lines of "I would be interested to see what others make of this article" be sufficient? The intention of posting the piece was to provoke debate; my own opinion/commentary is almost incidental and dependent on the responses of others. OK, so I got stroppy (bad me, slapped wrist), but that's a separate issue.

Here is a response, I'm an African and I have seen some shit in Africa, but last month I went to India and it was far worse poverty than anything I had ever seen. The one redeeming thing was that I could probably count the number of armed people I saw on both my hands, unlike Africa where the place is crawling with AKs

Here is a response, I'm an African and I have seen some shit in Africa, but last month I went to India and it was far worse poverty than anything I had ever seen. The one redeeming thing was that I could probably count the number of armed people I saw on both my hands, unlike Africa where the place is crawling with AKs
I wonder if that has anything to do with the degree of urbanisation... where in India were you? Friends of mine have told me various horror stories from Mumbai, Calcutta, etc.

Blimey. That's missing the point and then some.


I dont see how, frankly.

Was not the author writing a tirade, preaching moral superiority, and complaining that his (her?) nation had been plundered, raped, and generally abused for centuries?

This all may be true, but when you look at Africa today, and you see areas that are 75% HIV positive, and who believe that raping a virgin will cure you of your AIDS, (not making this up), or that infection from female circumcision is due to evil spirits...thus spreading HIV to dozens of women a day...

or...

When millions of Hutus and tutsies are sluaghtered for reasons westerners cant really understand, and the death tolls climb into the millions...
(killing each other, mind you....)

Can we really look at that nation and say "Oh what a shame"?

Or should we first try to educate the ignorant masses on that continent, and maybe save what we can of Africas soon to be dwindling population?

Does that Author have the right to take the moral high ground when there are such horrible problems occuring, that are among the worst on the planet?
Most of wich are the result of its own denizens, not outside influence.

Mumbai, Calcutta then Delhi

I dont see how, frankly.

Was not the author writing a tirade, preaching moral superiority, and complaining that his (her?) nation had been plundered, raped, and generally abused for centuries?
Madeleine Bunting is not from Africa, nor was she arguing that Africans are morally superior. Her commentary concerns the condescension and paternalism in western discourse on the continent's poverty.

As for the rest of your points, the fact remains that viewing Africans as hapless victims in need of western guidance and ways of life, irrespective of cultural differences*, isn't going to get us anywhere. As others have argued, struggling African nations will ultimately succeed or fail based on their own efforts.

*This doesn't mean condoning any act because it constitutes a 'cultural difference', it means not forcing an alien way of life on people who are capable of, eventually, forging a successful society on their own terms. One-size-fits-all policies as instituted by the IMF, World Bank and WTO are of little use.

Mumbai, Calcutta then Delhi
Ah, I'm not surprised you saw a lot of poverty.

Madeleine Bunting is not from Africa, nor was she arguing that Africans are morally superior. Her commentary concerns the condescension and paternalism in western discourse on the continent's poverty.

As for the rest of your points, the fact remains that viewing Africans as hapless victims in need of western guidance and ways of life, irrespective of cultural differences*, isn't going to get us anywhere. As others have argued, struggling African nations will ultimately succeed or fail based on their own efforts.

True, but considering the general state of many african nations, it would seems as though, largely, the entire continent is failing.

Real estate is going to be very cheap in Africa in about ten years.

The aids epidemic is out of control in many parts of the continent, and largely due to ignorance.

Left to its own devices...what will happen?

If by your statement, you believe that the west should basically back off, and let africa take care of africa....its going to end poorly..and not just for africa.

On one hand, the west really cant do enough for the place, and at the same time, is doing far too little.

Making sure that cultures are kept intact, and yet, educating its people about blood-born pathogens, and the spread of disease, are two different things I believe.

True, but considering the general state of many african nations, it would seems as though, largely, the entire continent is failing.

Real estate is going to be very cheap in Africa in about ten years.

The aids epidemic is out of control in many parts of the continent, and largely due to ignorance.
Let's not forget the lack of resources to deal with the problem. You're right though (to some degree), here's an area where certain cultural elements can be swept aside.

Left to its own devices...what will happen?

If by your statement, you believe that the west should basically back off, and let africa take care of africa....its going to end poorly..and not just for africa.

On one hand, the west really cant do enough for the place, and at the same time, is doing far too little.
No, no, no, you misunderstand! Probably my fault for being selective in my earlier reply. I don't think the west should back off. I meant that ultimately it's down to the people of the poor countries as to whether or not they succeed. The west's role here, as such, is to give the people the opportunity to determine their own destiny. I'm very much for renegotiation of trade terms, unconditional debt relief, targeted, specific aid and, vitally, full consultation with the people of the poor countries. Let's listen to what Africans want (and this will, of course, vary from country to country).

Making sure that cultures are kept intact, and yet, educating its people about blood-born pathogens, and the spread of disease, are two different things I believe.
Absolutely not. You're assuming some kind of African monoculture based on superstition and a rejection of science. That's no more true for Africa than it is for the US. Of course this superstition and ignorance exists, but it's far from being universal.

I hope to be able to discuss this with firsthand experience in a year from now, if all goes well.