NationStates Jolt Archive

I find it rather interesting, and or amusing that so many threads clutter the general forum on how society ought to ban religion. Now, for one thing I will say that I respect all views that people will hold (although I dont agree with all of them), but honestly, what will be the fruit on banning religion? Some people claim that it is because Christians bash on Athiests over religion and what we ought to believe. However, I see more threads in the general forum bashing on Christians over what we ought not to believe, or how we ought to have our free rights taken away from us to believe what we do. For one thing, which is notable and important, I have never seen so many generalisations as Athiests make toward Christians, verses the other way around. Athiests will claim that 'Christians do this!' or that 'Christians do that!', yet they fail to account that Christians are in fact, individual people each with individual characteristics. So if their friend was one day harrassed by a Christian trying to conform them to their own beliefs, then why doesnt one consider that person on an individual level rather than one of a collective nature.

With regards to this vast generalization against Christian individuals, into some kind of stereotype you heard off you're neighbour's pet dog, and also with regards to the fact that I see so many claims that 'ZOMG RELIGION CAUSES WARS!', I put this to the athiest folk who read this forum, why dont you start looking at the problem, rather than finding someone to blame? Why not actually look at the true cause of the wars et cetera, and realise that either a) human error is to blame, b) humans decided to make a bad choice, or c) humans decided to fight rather than think. Its time to stop pointing the finger at 'Christians' and its time to stop pointing the finger at 'God' or whatnot. What I wonder the most is why cant people seem to realise the true reality, that perhaps people are responsible for the crap that happens around the world. For example, religion didnt cause September 11, People caused September 11. God didnt cause September 11, People caused September 11. Homosexuals didnt cause September 11, some People under the guise of religion caused September 11. Notice a trend?

In all honesty, every time I read someone screaming that we ought to ban religion I get a little ticked off at the ignorance of these few. Everyone deserves their rights, everyone deserves to believe in what they choose to believe, and everyone deserves to get treated as an individual. In an essense, I also put it out to Christians, (and islamics, etc alike) to start standing up for our individual rights. I dont want to see religion cut down because someone happens to be a little biased or ignorant towards the fact that the world is made up of individual people. Sometimes you know, individual people do wrong, and hey, I have no charge against someone who points the finger at those people individually. But you also know that individual people do the right thing, which believe it or not make up the vast majority of any general group, such as Christianity.

Anyhow, I think I made my point. I just wanted to put it out to those ignorant few the actual truth, rather than their own biased, selfish views. I would like to hear some thoughts on this matter anyhow. Opinions? [/rant]

Instead of reading such a long post, im just going to agree with the topic title. Its easier.

Instead of reading such a long post, im just going to agree with the topic title. Its easier.
COMPLETELY went past your head then. :D


I gotta agree with you Austar Union (btw, long time, eh?). But one thing, he was talking about us Muslims and the Jews too. Not just Chrisitians.

Instead of reading such a long post, im just going to agree with the topic title. Its easier.
How about we just ban long posts instead? At least an initial post.

Leave the long posts for later in the thread. Give people a chance to get interested. To get hooked. Before you tell them "Hey look, I made a long post."

If you do it for the first post, it looks like you're trying to say "I'm important and have a lot to say because my post is long." But if you wait until at least the second page, you're just defending a position...

How about we just ban long posts instead? At least an initial post.

Leave the long posts for later in the thread. Give people a chance to get interested. To get hooked. Before you tell them "Hey look, I made a long post."

If you do it for the first post, it looks like you're trying to say "I'm important and have a lot to say because my post is long." But if you wait until at least the second page, you're just defending a position...

I actually just dont like threads with misleading titles, even if they are blatantly misleading. Not that I dont dislike long posts.

or religion, for that matter...

How about we just ban long posts instead? At least an initial post.

Leave the long posts for later in the thread. Give people a chance to get interested. To get hooked. Before you tell them "Hey look, I made a long post."

If you do it for the first post, it looks like you're trying to say "I'm important and have a lot to say because my post is long." But if you wait until at least the second page, you're just defending a position...

I think if people cant read, then they shouldnt be browsing these forums with an arguement to give. ;)

Yeeeaahhh...that first post has more sentences in paragraphs than I put in my English essays. But just the right amount of paragraphs. ;)

Hmm. You're right, I can't read.

However, if you look through some of my posts, you'll notice I try avoiding long posts too early into a discussion...especially because early on you pick up lots of trolls, but then eventually you'll see that one person stands out as a clear opponent to your position, yet level headed and willing to maturely debate you...then you bring out the long, drawn-out arguments...

Just my two-cents...but because I don't like religious discussion that much, I'll give you your thread back...

Yeeeaahhh...that first post has more sentences in paragraphs than I put in my English essays. But just the right amount of paragraphs. ;)

Seriously, I think he wrote more than I did for my AP US DBQ...

Not that I wrote very much, or well for the matter, for that test.

Can we stick to the topic at hand please?

Seriously, I think he wrote more than I did for my AP US DBQ...

Not that I wrote very much, or well for the matter, for that test.
I wrote some B.S. about how the deaths of Romeo and Juliet lead to the social and economic downfall of...the...one city they all lived in.

I agree, totaly right.
Extend 'Christianity' to 'all religions except the wierd warmonger ones, like warinism or whatever'

*waits for somebody to post 'omg, stupid troll. religon iz stoopid."

omg, stupid troll. religon iz stoopid

I can't get past the premise. How many threads actually call for the banning of religion? I've seen people argue religion, I've seen people argue religions place in 'public spaces' but I can't remember even running across a call to ban religion. Now, I'm not saying that there hasn't been someone at some point saying that religion should be banned, or even a cheerleader or two for the idea-but to suggest that the forum is littered with them-frankly I just don't see it.

It would seem to me that this is in fact a specific response to a specific incident that would have been better served addressed to the offender rather than to paint this as an 'epidemic' and martyring yourself.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I spend a lot of time on the forums here and I just haven't seen what is being claimed.

To Austar Union: Do you think 11th September would have happened if the hijackers didnt beleive in god?

I dont call for the bannin of religion at all and most people who do are probably just being stupid which you must have seen that a lot of people are on NS. But I do think religion causes about as many problems as it solves.

I can't get past the premise. How many threads actually call for the banning of religion? I've seen people argue religion, I've seen people argue religions place in 'public spaces' but I can't remember even running across a call to ban religion. Now, I'm not saying that there hasn't been someone at some point saying that religion should be banned, or even a cheerleader or two for the idea-but to suggest that the forum is littered with them-frankly I just don't see it.

It would seem to me that this is in fact a specific response to a specific incident that would have been better served addressed to the offender rather than to paint this as an 'epidemic' and martyring yourself.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I spend a lot of time on the forums here and I just haven't seen what is being claimed.

There is one floating around the forum as we speak.

For one thing, which is notable and important, I have never seen so many generalisations as Athiests make toward Christians, verses the other way around. Athiests will claim that 'Christians do this!' or that 'Christians do that!', yet they fail to account that Christians are in fact, individual people each with individual characteristics.

Does anyone else spot the irony here?

I'm 99% sure you didnt intentionally try to totally generalise atheists in your statement that "Athiests will claim......". Atheists are individuals too.

However i do agree with the main thrust of the topic. Banning religion is a stupid idea. Even as an atheist i can see that a) a lot of good people derive a lot of comfort and inspiration from their religion, and b) trying to ban religion is about as realistic as banning a certain style of music.

However tolerance and some realism on all sides of religion and non-religion would be nice. Just live and let live.

So, in short, you're saying that religions aren't a Borg collective?

Well that was easy. Only took me one sentence. :p

I gotta say...if all religions were banned...nothing too bad would happen.
Or at least, the good would outweigh any ill effects.

Look at what organized religions have brought us to:

2000 years of torture and misery....

Several parts of the world that will never again know peace, becuase the different religions can NOT get along.

Zealots of all kinds treating others like shit, for one reason or another...

thousands, maybe even millions of children being, or have been molested, by the clergy they trusted..

So even though an impossible notion...If all organized religions could be eliminated, but spirituality enforced.....i just dont see the problem.

I gotta say...if all religions were banned...nothing too bad would happen.
Or at least, the good would outweigh any ill effects.

Look at what organized religions have brought us to:

2000 years of torture and misery....

Several parts of the world that will never again know peace, becuase the different religions can NOT get along.

Zealots of all kinds treating others like shit, for one reason or another...

thousands, maybe even millions of children being, or have been molested, by the clergy they trusted..

So even though an impossible notion...If all organized religions could be eliminated, but spirituality enforced.....i just dont see the problem.

And without religion we would have had...
2000 years of tourture and misery
Several parts of the world that wouldnt know peace anyway because people are selfish bastards and would have found a reason to kill each other.
Crazy people treating each other like shit for one reason or another.
Thosands, maybe even millions of children, being, or have been molested by paedophiles because there werent crazy religious laws to stop them

Look at what organized religions have brought us to:

2000 years of torture and misery....


There've been organised religions around a heck of a lot longer than that. I'd say those ancient Hebrews and Egyptians were pretty damned organised. Though I've never met an Egyptian Sun worshipper I didn't like!

And without religion we would have had...
2000 years of tourture and misery
Several parts of the world that wouldnt know peace anyway because people are selfish bastards and would have found a reason to kill each other.
Crazy people treating each other like shit for one reason or another.
Thosands, maybe even millions of children, being, or have been molested by paedophiles because there werent crazy religious laws to stop them


Crap.

You think the Crusades would have happened without religion?

Or the Inquisitions?

Or the current trouble in the Middle East?

You believe that the millions of children would have been molested by someone else of their own spiritual advisors hadnt gotten them first?

Again, I say crap.

There've been organised religions around a heck of a lot longer than that. I'd say those ancient Hebrews and Egyptians were pretty damned organised. Though I've never met an Egyptian Sun worshipper I didn't like!


Sure, there have been many organized religions before Christianity, but you must admit a peticular downward spiral since then.

Sure, there have been many organized religions before Christianity, but you must admit a peticular downward spiral since then.

I think people in general have been on a downward spiral. I don't so much blame Christianity as I do all the nutjobs that have used it as an excuse. Without the religion, they'd still be just as much of a nutjob.

Senseless murders, rape, incest, bestiality, same sex marriage, racial hatred, disrespect, rebellion, abortion, euthanesia, and the degradation of society just to name a few, is due to lack of morality.

Just a small rebuttal. Good day!

Senseless murders, rape, incest, bestiality, same sex marriage, racial hatred, disrespect, rebellion, abortion, euthanesia, and the degradation of society just to name a few, is due to lack of Religion.

Just a small rebuttal. Good day!

I think you'll find all of those things have been done by the religous as well as the non religous.

Crap.

You think the Crusades would have happened without religion?

Or the Inquisitions?

Or the current trouble in the Middle East?

You believe that the millions of children would have been molested by someone else of their own spiritual advisors hadnt gotten them first?

Again, I say crap.

They would not have the same names, but they would have happened.
You deny that the Crusades were basically a landgrab with a nice excuse? The Inquisitions, at least, the worst parts, were the result of a guy who was pissed off at Moores and Jews, sound familiar?
The Arab tribes fought each other long before the big splits in Islam.
Paedophiles have been around forever as well.

Senseless murders

Like Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, killed by good Christian boys?

rape

Like the hundreds of thousands of wives raped daily by their husbands who demand they fulfill their "wifely duties" because Jesus said so?

incest

Like the countless generations of aristocrats who ruled by Divine Providence and built empires on Manifest Destiny and screwed their sisters to keep the bloodline pure a la Adam and Eve?

bestiality

I got nothin' on this one.

same sex marriage

Two words: King David. Look him up.

racial hatred

KKK, Aryan Knights, Church of the Creator?

disrespect

godhatesfags.com

rebellion

Like the American Revolution?

abortion

The Bible clearly states that a person isn't a person until born. The Talmud gives instructions on how to cut limb from limb and remove a baby from a woman's womb if her life is in danger.

euthanesia

Like the evisceration and/or boiling in oil of countless thousands of Pagans and Jews who refused to convert?

degradation of society

Nothing helps society stay afloat more than the alienation and oppression of ideaologies and the sciences, after all.

No ... none of the above can be attributed to lack of religion, though religion has been a catalyst for all of the above at one time or another.

There is one floating around the forum as we speak.
One, huh? Certainly supports my conclusion then, doesn't it?

Senseless murders, rape, incest, bestiality, same sex marriage, racial hatred, disrespect, rebellion, abortion, euthanesia, and the degradation of society just to name a few, is due to lack of Religion.

Just a small rebuttal. Good day!

-Senseless murders have occured in the name of religion
-Rape, ditto
-Incest, ditto
-Bestiality... I've never met an atheist with an animal fetish. I'd be surprised if there were a disproportionate number of atheists within the people who indulge in bestiality.
-Same sex marriage... sorry what exactly is the problem here?
-Racial hatred, ermmm. you are joking right?
-Disrespect (aparently your definition doesnt include disrespect of other peoples religion)
- Rebellion has also occured in the name of religion
- Abortion, some religions used to leave unwanted girl babies out to die from exposure.... I'd rather have the abortions. Also its not like all atheists support abortion and all theists are pro-life
- Euthanasia, coming from someone who has had a close relative go through torment in the late stages of incurable cancer, I would rather let someone die in peace and dignity rather than in a drooling, incapacited mess in constant and horiffic pain... thank you very much. Also see the point above, this issue isnt split down the middle between religious people and atheists.
- Degredation of Society? please explain. I'm sure society is no worse than it has been in the past when religion was much more prevalent. As far as I can see religion doesnt really have much effect at all on social quality. People are people and do as they will regardless.

Just a small reply to your rebuttal. Good Day.

-Senseless murders have occured in the name of religion
-Rape, ditto
-Incest, ditto
-Bestiality... I've never met an atheist with an animal fetish. I'd be surprised if there were a disproportionate number of atheists within the people who indulge in bestiality.
-Same sex marriage... sorry what exactly is the problem here?
-Racial hatred, ermmm. you are joking right?
-Disrespect (aparently your definition doesnt include disrespect of other peoples religion)
- Rebellion has also occured in the name of religion
- Abortion, some religions used to leave unwanted girl babies out to die from exposure.... I'd rather have the abortions. Also its not like all atheists support abortion and all theists are pro-life
- Euthanasia, coming from someone who has had a close relative go through torment in the late stages of incurable cancer, I would rather let someone die in peace and dignity rather than in a drooling, incapacited mess in constant and horiffic pain... thank you very much. Also see the point above, this issue isnt split down the middle between religious people and atheists.
- Degredation of Society? please explain. I'm sure society is no worse than it has been in the past when religion was much more prevalent. As far as I can see religion doesnt really have much effect at all on social quality. People are people and do as they will regardless.

Just a small reply to your rebuttal. Good Day.

The point is, they would have happend ANYWAY. Religion is a good excuse for those with somewhat lower ideals than the rest of us.

The point is, they would have happend ANYWAY. Religion is a good excuse for those with somewhat lower ideals than the rest of us.

Agreed. In general, religion was just an excuse not a cause. However, lack of religion doesn't cause these things either.

Agreed. In general religion was just an excuse not a cause. Lack of religion doesnt cause these things either.
You have succedded in suprising me, congratulations sir.
I was expecting something along the lines of what Squatches posted.

You have succedded in suprising me, congratulations sir.
I was expecting something along the lines of what Squatches posted.

Any problems i have had with religion i put down to the individuals personality. Its all about how people decide they will personally use their beliefs.

As for Sqautches.... the words "chip on shoulder" spring to mind. Sounds like there is some history there with some religious people who werent so tolerant. But hey this is just an internet forum and i'm not a psychologist.

Any problems i have had with religion i put down to the individuals personality. Its all about how people decide they will personally use their beliefs.

As for Sqautches.... the words "chip on shoulder" spring to mind. Sounds like there is some history there with some religious people who werent so tolerant. But hey this is just an internet forum and i'm not a psychologist.
I try to apply that to everything, I fail sometimes, but I try :P

I think Squatches just spends too much time on NS...this place...it does something...to your MIND.
>_>
<_<

Any problems i have had with religion i put down to the individuals personality. Its all about how people decide they will personally use their beliefs.

As for Sqautches.... the words "chip on shoulder" spring to mind. Sounds like there is some history there with some religious people who werent so tolerant. But hey this is just an internet forum and i'm not a psychologist.


I have absolutely no chip on my shoulder in regards to Christianity, I merely point out some horrible events in history, that were directly caused by religious zealots.

As for The Crusades, yes it was indeed a land grab, but one that was inspired by religious zealotism.

Same with the Inquisitions.

As for Pedophiles, yes...they have always existed, and will always exist...BUT...with the fact that so few of the clergy members who have molested children are being prosecuted in comparison to the number that are being protected by the Church....THAT is a negative aspect directly caused by religion.

Yes...people have been murdered in the past, and even if such events like the Crusades never happened, people would have still died.

But think of it this way...

If 5000 people would have died in battles during that time, due to other events...then the Crusades added to that number.

If one million children would have been molested in the last 2 years...then the Catholic Church..added to that number.

So..yes...it would have happened anyway....but not to the extents that they did.

Organized religion exacerbates existing problems.

I try to apply that to everything, I fail sometimes, but I try :P

I think Squatches just spends too much time on NS...this place...it does something...to your MIND.
>_>
<_<


I blame Jesus?

I think the great discussion here is, who really commits these crimes of indecency, and who breaks society? Is it religion as a whole, per say, or is it rather the people whom believe in the religion? To the question of; do I think that September 11 would have happened even if the terrorists didnt believe in god? To that answer a simple, yes. Because although these terrorists claimed it in the name of 'God', isnt there thousands of examples of athiest terrorists also? Does this mean that athiesm ought to be banned? I doubt so, but rather we should be fighting against the specific groups of people, rather than the blanket they hide within.

Crusades happened in the name of 'God'. But did every Christian launch into a crusade? Again, those who launched themselves into violent crusades ought to be fought, because it is they who commit the murders, the senseless brutalities. Not me. I am a christian (obviously), so should I be denied my right to practise and believe in what I believe in? I didnt commit any crimes, and I sure believe that 99% of Christians havent also. As for the comments that there would be more good than bad coming from banning religion... think about this. Imagine if the government banned athiests from not practising a religion. Wouldnt you fight back, violently if nessasary for the right to not practise a religion, as I would fight to believe and follow in my God? There are probably about... 3 Billion people who practise a religion world-wide. I dont want to be in that fight... and I wouldnt wish it upon the world anyday.

In the meantime, note that not every war fought in the name of God was a legitamate and fair calling. I rather consider these people, warmongerers trying to hide under a blanket of generalisation. Imagine if someone fought a war in the name of athiesism, against every religion, and brutally murdered millions of children etc. Would you think it fair that the entire principals of an athiest be banned, because of one smaller group who decided to misuse the name of the masses?

I have absolutely no chip on my shoulder in regards to Christianity, I merely point out some horrible events in history, that were directly caused by religious zealots.

As for The Crusades, yes it was indeed a land grab, but one that was inspired by religious zealotism.

Same with the Inquisitions.

As for Pedophiles, yes...they have always existed, and will always exist...BUT...with the fact that so few of the clergy members who have molested children are being prosecuted in comparison to the number that are being protected by the Church....THAT is a negative aspect directly caused by religion.

Yes...people have been murdered in the past, and even if such events like the Crusades never happened, people would have still died.

But think of it this way...

If 5000 people would have died in battles during that time, due to other events...then the Crusades added to that number.

If one million children would have been molested in the last 2 years...then the Catholic Church..added to that number.

So..yes...it would have happened anyway....but not to the extents that they did.

Organized religion exacerbates existing problems.

No. Religious zealotism was a handy tool for initiating a landgrab. It got the peasants all riled up and ready to go.

No. The Inquisition was, as I said, the result of a Hitleresque personality problem. Again, religion was merely a tool to a persons means.

People kill other people. It happens, its BEEN happening since Og hit Zog with a log and threw him in a bog.
Religion is, to repeat, on occasion a tool for people to get OTHER people to kill people.

I think the great discussion here is, who really commits these crimes of indecency, and who breaks society? Is it religion as a whole, per say, or is it rather the people whom believe in the religion? To the question of; do I think that September 11 would have happened even if the terrorists didnt believe in god? To that answer a simple, yes. Because although these terrorists claimed it in the name of 'God', isnt there thousands of examples of athiest terrorists also? Does this mean that athiesm ought to be banned? I doubt so, but rather we should be fighting against the specific groups of people, rather than the blanket they hide within.

Crusades happened in the name of 'God'. But did every Christian launch into a crusade? Again, those who launched themselves into violent crusades ought to be fought, because it is they who commit the murders, the senseless brutalities. Not me. I am a christian (obviously), so should I be denied my right to practise and believe in what I believe in? I didnt commit any crimes, and I sure believe that 99% of Christians havent also. As for the comments that there would be more good than bad coming from banning religion... think about this. Imagine if the government banned athiests from not practising a religion. Wouldnt you fight back, violently if nessasary for the right to not practise a religion, as I would fight to believe and follow in my God? There are probably about... 3 Billion people who practise a religion world-wide. I dont want to be in that fight... and I wouldnt wish it upon the world anyday.

In the meantime, note that not every war fought in the name of God was a legitamate and fair calling. I rather consider these people, warmongerers trying to hide under a blanket of generalisation. Imagine if someone fought a war in the name of athiesism, against every religion, and brutally murdered millions of children etc. Would you think it fair that the entire principals of an athiest be banned, because of one smaller group who decided to misuse the name of the masses?


So would you say that an equal number of people have been killed in the name of atheism?

So would you say that an equal number of people have been killed in the name of atheism?
I would say that an equal number of people have been killed for secular reasons.

No. Religious zealotism was a handy tool for initiating a landgrab. It got the peasants all riled up and ready to go.

No. The Inquisition was, as I said, the result of a Hitleresque personality problem. Again, religion was merely a tool to a persons means.

People kill other people. It happens, its BEEN happening since Og hit Zog with a log and threw him in a bog.
Religion is, to repeat, on occasion a tool for people to get OTHER people to kill people.


Right, so you agree that religion exacerbates pre-existing problems, into worse ones.

And the Inquisitions were a purge built on intolerance and greed.

I would say that an equal number of people have been killed for secular reasons.


But thats not what I asked.

I asked you if an equal niumber of people have been murdered in the name of Atheism.

I would say that an equal number of people have been killed for secular reasons.

Notably, World War Two (which wasnt fought in the name of the Jewish Religion but rather against the Jewish PEOPLE if you like, was the bloodiest war in human history, and as a result 50 Million People were killed.

Right, so you agree that religion exacerbates pre-existing problems, into worse ones.

And the Inquisitions were a purge built on intolerance and greed.
I say that on occasion people twist it to their own purposes.
Communism, for example, was used as an excuse to kill millions of people. Should we go on a campaign to stamp out Communism? No. That leads to more deaths as the result of the crusade against Communism.

Attempting to destroy any set of beleifs, especialy extremly popular ones, is a bad idea.

So would you say that an equal number of people have been killed in the name of atheism?

I wouldn't know about equality in numbers, but the Chinese have busied themselves with the massacre of millions of Buddhists and Taoists in Tibet between 1950 and 1980 ... in the name of wiping out religion.

I'm sure there are plenty more such examples.

I say that on occasion people twist it to their own purposes.
Communism, for example, was used as an excuse to kill millions of people. Should we go on a campaign to stamp out Communism? No. That leads to more deaths as the result of the crusade against Communism.

Attempting to destroy any set of beleifs, especialy extremly popular ones, is a bad idea.


Perhaps youve heard of Joe McCarthy?

We did have nearly a crusade against Communism.

It inspired the war in Vietnam.
"The Red Scare" and all that.

and of course, wiping out, (or attempting to wipe out) religion is silly.
It couldnt be done, and shouldnt, even if it could...

BUT.....without it...a lot less people would have died.

Perhaps youve heard of Joe McCarthy?

We did have nearly a crusade against Communism.

It inspired the war in Vietnam.
"The Red Scare" and all that.

and of course, wiping out, (or attempting to wipe out) religion is silly.
It couldnt be done, and shouldnt, even if it could...

BUT.....without it...a lot less people would have died.
My point.

And again, people kill each other, for land, money, resources of some kind, its all the same.
Perhaps one out of every ten 'Holy Wars' is declared for the above reasons, regardless of what the participants think.

I have absolutely no chip on my shoulder in regards to Christianity, I merely point out some horrible events in history, that were directly caused by religious zealots.

Sorry about that. Like i said I'm no psychologist, and just seemed like you were rather overly vehement over this forum. NS does strange things to... minds.... I keep hearing this weird ringing noise... and it only stops if i pick up the phone.. but then the voices start!!

Anyway. I dont think religiones per se cause these problems at all. But it would seem religions are a very convenient excuse.

Like the molesting priests. Do they molest children because they are catholic priests? Or do they join the clergy because they have that tendency and realise its a position of trust and power they can 'scratch the itch' in.

but less peole would have a cause to live for without religion

My point.

And again, people kill each other, for land, money, resources of some kind, its all the same.
Perhaps one out of every ten 'Holy Wars' is declared for the above reasons, regardless of what the participants think.


My point:

Do you think a terrorist straps on a bomb, and walks into a coffee shop becuase he wants money, or rescources?

Or becuase, when you boil it down, he believes that his god is better than yours, and you are "the great Satan".

Do you think that Muhammed Atta was doing it for the money, or do you think it boiled down to religion?

Sorry about that. Like i said I'm no psychologist, and just seemed like you were rather overly vehement over this forum. NS does strange things to... minds.... I keep hearing this weird ringing noise... and it only stops if i pick up the phone.. but then the voices start!!

Anyway. I dont think religiones per se cause these problems at all. But it would seem religions are a very convenient excuse.

Like the molesting priests. Do they molest children because they are catholic priests? Or do they join the clergy because they have that tendency and realise its a position of trust and power they can 'scratch the itch' in.


See, I think that the Church, and ultimately the religion, plays a HUGE role in its priests molesting children.

After all, its the religion, that forbids them to marry.
Sexual desires will eventually refuse to be suppressed.

Im not saying that all priests are perverts...but how many of them would not have done what they did, if they had been allowed an outlet for those instincts?

My point:

Do you think a terrorist straps on a bomb, and walks into a coffee shop becuase he wants money, or rescources?

Or becuase, when you boil it down, he believes that his god is better than yours, and you are "the great Satan".

Do you think that Muhammed Atta was doing it for the money, or do you think it boiled down to religion?
No, I think he is being manipulated to an end by a politician for money, resources or land.
HE does, but only because a leader of some kind has told him so, IE: twisted a religion to his end.
See above.

My point:

Do you think a terrorist straps on a bomb, and walks into a coffee shop becuase he wants money, or rescources?

Or becuase, when you boil it down, he believes that his god is better than yours, and you are "the great Satan".

Do you think that Muhammed Atta was doing it for the money, or do you think it boiled down to religion?

Good point. Although maybe they just strap on the bombs because they are having their land or civil rights taken away and want to make a point... Bit of an extreme way to make a point nonetheless.

No, I think he is being manipulated to an end by a politician for money, resources or land.
HE does, but only because a leader of some kind has told him so, IE: twisted a religion to his end.
See above.


So then, if that religion, and thusly, its followers, are so easily twisted and manipulated, into such acts, then isnt the religion itself, inherently flawed?

See, I think that the Church, and ultimately the religion, plays a HUGE role in its priests molesting children.

After all, its the religion, that forbids them to marry.
Sexual desires will eventually refuse to be suppressed.

Im not saying that all priests are perverts...but how many of them would not have done what they did, if they had been allowed an outlet for those instincts?

True. Maybe if the Church wasn't so sexually repressive in the first place this wouldnt be the problem it is. Then we get into the sticky area of trying to filter true religion from church policy.

True. Maybe if the Church wasn't so sexually repressive in the first place this wouldnt be the problem it is. Then we get into the sticky area of trying to filter true religion from church policy.


I think thats been an issue since the invention of modern religion.

Chistianity, for example, has a ton of positive lessons, and morals all about it.
However, its too rare that the average follower can use those as guidelines for living, instead of an inpenetrable logic for intolerance.

So then, if that religion, and thusly, its followers, are so easily twisted and manipulated, into such acts, then isnt the religion itself, inherently flawed?
People are flawed, theres nothing essentialy wrong with most religions, I say most because I feel that, as an example, the ancient Aztecs had things moderatly wrong, what with the human sacrifice and flaying alive.

People are flawed, theres nothing essentialy wrong with most religions, I say most because I feel that, as an example, the ancient Aztecs had things moderatly wrong, what with the human sacrifice and flaying alive.


If people are inherently flawed.....

and people invent religions.......

Then subsequently....are not those religions, flawed?

I think thats been an issue since the invention of modern religion.

Chistianity, for example, has a ton of positive lessons, and morals all about it.
However, its too rare that the average follower can use those as guidelines for living, instead of an inpenetrable logic for intolerance.

Sad but true. Take any belief or institution and individuals put their own spin on its meaning, often to a negative effect. If someone wants to wage a war on someone they will find justification for it somehow, with or without religion. Religion just makes it easier.

Crap.

You think the Crusades would have happened without religion?

Or the Inquisitions?

Or the current trouble in the Middle East?

You believe that the millions of children would have been molested by someone else of their own spiritual advisors hadnt gotten them first?

Again, I say crap.
Where do i get the idea that you want to only ban Christianity and any any other religions that get thrown out with is so much icing on the cake? Oh Yeah, from reading your post

Sad but true. Take any belief or institution and individuals put their own spin on its meaning, often to a negative effect. If someone wants to wage a war on someone they will find justification for it somehow, with or without religion. Religion just makes it easier.


Agreed.

The problem with religion:

Too open for interperetation.

If people are inherently flawed.....

and people invent religions.......

Then subsequently....are not those religions, flawed?
The thing is...people didnt invent religion ;)
Of course, thats just my religious view.

Where do i get the idea that you want to only ban Christianity and any any other religions that get thrown out with is so much icing on the cake? Oh Yeah, from reading your post


I think your mistaken.

I personally believe that all organized religions are based mostly in crap.

Christians just prefer to wallow in it.

The thing is...people didnt invent religion ;)
Of course, thats just my religious view.


Heh..ok.

So if God created Christianity....who created the Norse Pantheon?

Heh..ok.

So if God created Christianity....who created the Norse Pantheon?
That depends on who you ask.
IMO, it was made up by some people who were bored and drunk.
That is, of course, my opinion, I imagine they have the same, or equivalent anyway, opinion of Christianity.

Agreed.

The problem with religion:

Too open for interperetation.

Absolutely. The belief that Jesus was the son of God and died for our sins isn't a problem.... But you only have to look at the fact there are currently over 100 translations of the bible. see: http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Scriptures/
And that all the christian denominations are forever disagreeing on what the scriptures mean.


The thing is...people didnt invent religion Of course, thats just my religious view.

My view is that religion is entirely man-mad. But no point arguing about it. Not like we can positively prove or disprove it.

That depends on who you ask.
IMO, it was made up by some people who were bored and drunk.
That is, of course, my opinion, I imagine they have the same, or equivalent anyway, opinion of Christianity.


You see...you and I are not so different!

An atheist feels the same way about ALL religions.

You see...you and I are not so different!

An atheist feels the same way about ALL religions.
Were no differnt except on one point :P