Toyota Chooses Canada over the Southern US [Archive]

Oye Oye

04-07-2005, 01:16

Educational reform in America: where to begin... I have a teacher for a brother (7th grade math to be specific) and he states that "while I like that President Bush and the republican Congress are making an effort to reform education, it is just not working. The NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND PROGRAM more hurts the outstanding children than helps the struggling ones." Again, this is his personal opinion, but I thought I would spread the word....

Mind you, I voted for Bush twice, and like his policies as a whole, I just think we as a nation have been going about our education all wrong...

Any suggestions?? (and please do not take this as your opportunity to attack our president nor congress)

You voted twice for a President who is spending billions of dollars in a vain attempt to fight two wars simultaneously and your wondering why your education system sucks?

P.S. that's not an attack on G.W. that's an attack on you.

CSW

04-07-2005, 01:19

Vetalia

04-07-2005, 01:23

An attack on anyone isn't allowed by the rules. Watch it.

And anyway, it's not really correct. Throwing money at the problem has been the policy for decades, and we have done nothing but lose ground on all fronts. What we need are strict standards and accountability imposed by well-trained teachers. Discipline needs to be enforced, and it has to be realistic (schools go insane over toy guns but are oblivious to harassment and drugs), and it has to be tough.

Oye Oye

04-07-2005, 01:26

And anyway, it's not really correct. Throwing money at the problem has been the policy for decades, and we have done nothing but lose ground on all fronts. What we need are strict standards and accountability imposed by well-trained teachers. Discipline needs to be enforced, and it has to be realistic (schools go insane over toy guns but are oblivious to harassment and drugs), and it has to be tough.

Wouldn't smaller classrooms, better trained teachers and better facilities be resolved with higher government spending and equal distribution?

Vetalia

04-07-2005, 01:31

Wouldn't smaller classrooms, better trained teachers and better facilities be resolved with higher government spending and equal distribution?

Yes, but rather than being spent on real, beneficial things, the money we give the Department of Education is unsupervised and undirected. It ends up wasted on bureaucracy and overpaid administration with no accountability. Hell, the DoE lost 1 billion dollars in 2000 with no idea where it went!

Efficency and accountability have to come before money.

StephenTheBOB

04-07-2005, 01:33

Wouldn't smaller classrooms, better trained teachers and better facilities be resolved with higher government spending and equal distribution?

That's soooo naive.

The simple answer is: yes.

The complex answer is : That'll never happen.
You know why? First of all, there is no money to go there. As mentionned earlier, a certain president has been throwing away millions each year to fight two wars at once, and there is no more money to go around. Unlike in NationStates, you can't commit to any expense no matter how insane and simply raise taxes to compensate.
Second of all, If something was going to happen like that, it already would have. Public schools are going downhill, not up. :eek:
Third: That would be like, A GOOD THING! :eek: :eek: :eek: Such a thing could never happen! :eek: :eek:

NERVUN

04-07-2005, 01:34

*sighs* Here we go again. Before some of the more radical ideas pop up, let me state a few things.

The United States education system has both good points and bad points, along with every other country in the world.

Tossing more money at schools won't fix everything, but more money, if wisely used, would be extreamly helpful, especially in teacher recruitment and retention.

The US education system handles more students longer than any other system in the world. We are required to edcuate everyone to a high school graduate level. To my knowledge, no other country has that requierment, and means it; at least not on the scale of the US system.

Since schools are a reflection of the society (not the other way around), there has to be great changes made WITHIN society before this will be reflected within schools.

Conclusion: Yes, the US system has problems that need to be addressed, but in order to fully address them, it will take lots of time, money, and involvement of communities and people within the schools. It cannot be done within an election cycle or within a few years, so I doubt the majority of Americans would be willing to actually do what needs to be done.

Oye Oye

04-07-2005, 01:37

Yes, but rather than being spent on real, beneficial things, the money we give the Department of Education is unsupervised and undirected. It ends up wasted on bureaucracy and overpaid administration with no accountability. Hell, the DoE lost 1 billion dollars in 2000 with no idea where it went!

Efficency and accountability have to come before money.

I'm not from the U.S., but I have relatives there, two of my cousins are grade school teachers in Orange County, California and I was very impressed by the conditions of the classroom. But this is mainly because the school is located in a wealthy neighbourhood. Do you think taxes from wealthy neighbourhoods should be redistributed equally so that inner city students have the same opportunities?

NERVUN

04-07-2005, 01:37

Yes, but rather than being spent on real, beneficial things, the money we give the Department of Education is unsupervised and undirected. It ends up wasted on bureaucracy and overpaid administration with no accountability. Hell, the DoE lost 1 billion dollars in 2000 with no idea where it went!

Efficency and accountability have to come before money.
The Department of Education does not have any control over local school districts, actually the federal goverment has very little control or infulance in schools. No Child Left Behind is a first in federal interfearence that has been traditionally a local issue.

Gun toting civilians

04-07-2005, 01:39

there are a lot of problems with the american education system. The largest problems are that teachers are not in charge of thier classes any more. The ACLU has sued school districts for such things as: kicking an unruly student out of class; giving an F to a studint caught cheating; not giving some distingushment to a student who didn't earn it.

The school I went to was one of the award winning schools for long term accidemic excelence. If you didn't preform to the standard, you got held back. If you were unruly, you got throw out of class. Period.

Someone will say that the US doesn't spend enough money on education. Considering on that only Iceland spends more on average per student that the us does, this just doesn't hold up.

:headbang:

CSW

04-07-2005, 01:40

Vetalia

04-07-2005, 01:41

The Department of Education does not have any control over local school districts, actually the federal goverment has very little control or infulance in schools. No Child Left Behind is a first in federal interfearence that has been traditionally a local issue.

You are right, I stand corrected. Still it is an example of the inefficency that paralyzes the system and prevents reform.

Gun toting civilians

04-07-2005, 01:45

Please cite those 'ACLU' cases please.

Give me some time, I'm trying to google them now

I originally heard about these cases in Readers Digest.

Oye Oye

04-07-2005, 01:51

AkhPhasa

04-07-2005, 01:58

The US education system handles more students longer than any other system in the world. We are required to edcuate everyone to a high school graduate level. To my knowledge, no other country has that requierment, and means it; at least not on the scale of the US system.

Guess again.

Vetalia

04-07-2005, 02:00

Guess again.

Ummm...Canada? :p

Haverton

04-07-2005, 02:05

Hmm, Nissan builds a factory in some podunk little town and Toyota sees that as a mistake. Really? Let's look at Woodstock, Ontario versus Canton, Mississippi.

Canton: http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/SAFFFacts?_event=Search&geo_id=&_geoContext=&_street=&_county=Canton&_cityTown=Canton&_state=04000US28&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010

Woodstock, Ontario: http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/products/highlight/Education/Page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo=CSD&View=3b&Code=544&Table=1a&StartRec=1&Sort=2&B1=Counts01&B2=Both

I've got a couple of ideas for why Canton's shitty, but those are irrelevant. Toyota made the right choice.

The Chinese Republics

04-07-2005, 02:11

Toyota's 2nd car plant in Woodstock, Ont is really Canada's birthday gift. :D

Wouldn't smaller classrooms, better trained teachers and better facilities be resolved with higher government spending and equal distribution?
I wish we had that in BC

Stupid Gordon Campbell and his "Liberal" party! :mad:

Dakini

04-07-2005, 02:11

Woot!

This sounds good for Ontario, it's never a bad thing to have more job opportunities opening up around here. It is funny how the educational record of the south bites them in the ass.

And I've never heard anything about the health care system here being an advantage to employers before this.

Upitatanium

04-07-2005, 02:21

And I've never heard anything about the health care system here being an advantage to employers before this.

Yeah, first time for me too. Makes sense though since it takes the burden off the companies to pay for the insurance. I don't want this to be another healthcare thread though.

Sarkasis

04-07-2005, 02:40

With Canada losing a few General Motors plants (and one Hyunday plant) over the last few years, this is good news. Toyota is a nice company, they really treat their employees & business partners well. They have many car plants in the US already, so it's fair to give Canada one more (ideally a multinational company should balance sales <--> production on a regional or national level).

As for the education system, attending classes is mandatory in Canada until you're 16 years old. I know some persons who haven't got more than Secondary 3 or 4 (no diploma). Well they have decent jobs at least, but you can always fail often enough till you're 16, and then byebye.

A friend of mine managed to get a Professional diploma (Secondary 5 + 1 year) in diesel mechanic, because his mother promised him a 4WD pickup if he does. Best use of pickups, ever!!! Now the guy works on 10-tons mining trucks and earns a lot of cash.

Canad a

04-07-2005, 02:49

Do you want to know why Toyota chose Eastern Canada over the Southern United States? The reason is natural resources, Canada sends a lot of ore resources to Japan to build their automobiles. Toyota vehicles within Canada are quite popular then in the Southern US, because they mostly drive Ford Trucks and massive Suburbans.

This creates more employments. Southern United States - agricultural land. Toronto, is the largest major urban centre in Canada. If they were to build it in the South, a lot of people would leave their farming jobs. (I am sure they have other jobs, but agricultural is the major employment opportunity within that area, correct?)

Dontgonearthere

04-07-2005, 02:54

Why? Canadians are literate and Southerners need to be taught with pictures.
You sir, are a jackass.
I havent spent any time in the 'Souther education system', but I know that a number of my friends are no more or less intelligent than me, and they HAVE.
This is just one example of the irrational hatred of anybody who lives in the SouthEast United States simply because. It boggles my mind how so called 'equal-rights advocates' can say that they want everybody equal, and then turn around and hurl strings of unfounded insults at a group of people who are relativly inoffensive.
I have seen minor racism in my time down there, but nothing that justifies this kind of behaviour.
Seriously. Oh my God! A guy didnt say 'Your welcome." to a black guy who bought a bag of popcorn after he said 'Thank you."! RACISM!
End Rant.

NERVUN

04-07-2005, 02:58

Guess again.
Hmm, ok, let me be a wee bit more specific.

US laws mandates education till age 18 or high school graduation, whichever comes first. US laws also do not allow for tracking of students into college bound or techincal schools (though within a school you find them). US laws also mandate education to the same degree for all students regardless of disability, if the parents so request, or language situation. Universal education within the US is really universal and our system handles 61,480,530 kids (or there abouts). So what other system does the same?

Dakini

04-07-2005, 03:01

You sir, are a jackass.
I havent spent any time in the 'Souther education system', but I know that a number of my friends are no more or less intelligent than me, and they HAVE.
This is just one example of the irrational hatred of anybody who lives in the SouthEast United States simply because. It boggles my mind how so called 'equal-rights advocates' can say that they want everybody equal, and then turn around and hurl strings of unfounded insults at a group of people who are relativly inoffensive.
I have seen minor racism in my time down there, but nothing that justifies this kind of behaviour.
Seriously. Oh my God! A guy didnt say 'Your welcome." to a black guy who bought a bag of popcorn after he said 'Thank you."! RACISM!
End Rant.
It's not racism, the company has had problems in the past with workers in the same area who have had to be taught with pictures how to use the equipment because they were illiterate. Perhaps your friends are from different states or richer areas than the location of the proposed plant.

Sarkasis

04-07-2005, 03:04

I think the most important part in this article is:

"In addition to lower training costs, Canadian workers are also $4 to $5 cheaper to employ partly thanks to the taxpayer-funded health-care system in Canada (...)"

So what do you get in Canada?
1) less expensive medical coverage (an incentive for the industry)
2) people looking for a job in a car plant seem to have a better educational background

I think there's nothing here to become racist or to brag about.

OceanDrive2

04-07-2005, 03:09

....
This is just one example of the irrational hatred of anybody who lives in the SouthEast United States simply because....Hollywood image of the southern men can sometimes be resumed to one word "redneck".

other Hollywood projections are "racist"..."rustic"..."over-religious"
Hollywood did not bother to project enough good sides for the Southern men

Hollywood is a very powerful "matrix"...

Im afraid your friends from the south are going to have a very hard time shaking that pre-conceived image.

also...the election charts showing "the south" to be (in a big way) responsible for the reelection of Bush...is not going to help you with Foreigners...including Japanese investors.

Sarkasis

04-07-2005, 03:19

OK. Here's an altered version of the article -- I've flipped the information. Now the plant is to be built in Ohio, and China has lost the bid because people there are illiterate and have bad living conditions.

Anyone feels outraged?

The American public is so used to see the US as the "all around winner" in all situations, that if the US ever loses something, there is giant wave of outrage/disgust/rage across the country. Sad.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Toyota to build 100,000 vehicles per year in Dayton, Ohio, starting 2008 [Note: HOAX]

DAYTON, Ohio (CP) - Ohio workers are well-trained.

That simple explanation was cited as a main reason why Toyota turned its back on hundreds of millions of dollars in subsidies offered from several Chinese states in favour of building a second Ohio plant.

Industry experts say Ohio citizens are easier and cheaper to train - helping make it more cost-efficient to train workers when the new Dayton plant opens in 2008, 40 kilometres away from its skilled workforce in Cincinnatti.

"The level of the workforce in general is so high that the training program you need for people, even for people who have not worked in a Toyota plant before, is minimal compared to what you have to go through in the far east," said Gerry Fedchun, president of the Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association, whose members will see increased business with the new plant.

Acknowledging it was the "worst-kept secret" throughout Ohio's automotive industry, Toyota confirmed months of speculation Thursday by announcing plans to build a 1,300-worker factory in the southwestern Ohio city.

"Welcome to Dayton - that's something I've been waiting a long time to say," Ray Tanguay, president of Toyota Motor Manufacturing China, told hundreds gathered at a high school gymnasium.

The plant will produce the RAV-4, dubbed by some as a "mini sport-utility vehicle" that Toyota currently makes only in Japan. It plans to build 100,000 vehicles annually.

The factory will cost $800 million to build, with the federal and state governments kicking in $125 million of that to help cover research, training and infrastructure costs.

Several Chinese cities were reportedly prepared to offer more than double that amount of subsidy. But Fedchun said much of that extra money would have been eaten away by higher training costs than are necessary for the Dayton project.

He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new plants up to full production in recent years in Beijing and Shanghai due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce. In Shanghai, trainers had to use "pictorials" to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment.

"The educational level and the skill level of the people down there is so much lower than it is in Ohio," Fedchun said.

In addition to lower training costs, U.S. workers are also $4 to $5 cheaper to employ partly thanks to the longest lifespan and better living conditions in the US, said federal Industry Minister David Emmerson.

"Most people don't think of our healthy life conditions as being a competitive advantage," he said.

Tanguay said Toyota's decision on where to build its seventh North American plant was "not only about money."

"It's about being in the right place," he said, noting the company can rely on the expertise of experienced Cincinnati workers to help get Dayton up and running.

Premier Dalton McGuinty said the money the state and Washington are pledging for the project is well-spent. His government has committed $400 million, including the latest Toyota package, to the state's auto sector, which helped finance $5-billion worth of industry projects.

"I think that's a great investment that will more than pay for itself in terms of new jobs and new economic returns," McGuinty said.

The state-originated funds for the auto sector were drawn from a fund set up to attract investments specifically in that industry. McGuinty said no similar industry funds are being planned for other sectors, but added the state wants to attract biotechnology companies - those working on multibillion-dollar advanced medical research.

"What we have done for auto we would like to be able to do for biotech," he said. "That's where we're lending some real focus to at the present time."

Similarly, Emmerson said Washington is looking to help out industries that create "clusters" of jobs around them - such as in aerospace, shipbuilding, telecommunications and forestry - where supply bases build around a large manufacturer.

OceanDrive2

04-07-2005, 03:26

Celtlund

04-07-2005, 03:34

It is a shame that our educational system in the US is in such shambles. Both Dewy and Prosser would be appalled.

And more of the story; "In addition to lower training costs, Canadian workers are also $4 to $5 cheaper to employ partly thanks to the taxpayer-funded health-care system in Canada, said federal Industry Minister David Emmerson."

Sarkasis

04-07-2005, 03:37

while we are at it...why did Hyundai close down a brand new facility in your area?
They sucked as much government funding as they could, over a few years, then moved away when they couldn't get more.

OceanDrive2

04-07-2005, 03:45

They sucked as much government funding as they could, over a few years, then moved away when they couldn't get more.I understand Hyundai wanted to buid their new Sonata at Bromont

Sarkasis

04-07-2005, 03:52

I understand Hyundai wanted to buid their new Sonata at Bromont
The Bromont plant is actually vacant/empty.
Hyundai is not the current owner.
It's been like this since 1994.

OceanDrive2

04-07-2005, 04:02

They sucked as much government funding as they could, over a few years, then moved away when they couldn't get more.
The reason Hyundai gave to the Korean media was excessive Unionism...They did lose millions at Bromont

They are currently building the Sonata in Alabama...

http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/img/news_daily/063005/BIZ_sonata.jpg
Hyundai Sonatas are lined up for their final checks at the Montgomery manufacturing plant in this April photo. A customer survey by J.D. Power and Associates showed Hyundai made the most improvement among all automakers

Celtlund

04-07-2005, 04:11

Any suggestions?? (and please do not take this as your opportunity to attack our president nor congress)

Lots, so where do I start?
1. Allow competition in primary and secondary education by approving vouchers. The public education system will be forced to improve in order to stay in business.

2. Abolish tenure in the public education system. Incompetent teachers should be fired and good teachers should be rewarded.

3. Put more of the education dollars into career education. Unfortunately, our public education system is geared toward college. Most high school graduates do not go on to college and of those who do a very small percent graduate in four years. Those who do not go to college or drop out of college are ill prepared to compete in the job market.

4. Put more emphasis on educating the child and less emphasis on testing the child to see if he/she meets grade level or some “national standard.” The child should be taught the material, evaluated on what is taught, and then advanced or retained based on the evaluation. No more social promotions if you don’t pass you don’t move on.

I could go on, but I'm not ready to write a thesis.

Sonic The Hedgehogs

04-07-2005, 04:20

How strong is the UAW in Canada compared to The United States?

Celtlund

04-07-2005, 04:25

Wouldn't smaller classrooms, better trained teachers and better facilities be resolved with higher government spending and equal distribution?

Part of the problem now is a lot of that money is being spent on administration not in the classroom. If the administrative bloat were reduced, more money would be available for the classroom and class sizes could be reduced.

Celtlund

04-07-2005, 04:26

Vetalia

04-07-2005, 04:27

Part of the problem now is a lot of that money is being spent on administration not in the classroom. If the administrative bloat were reduced, more money would be available for the classroom and class sizes could be reduced.

The local school district in Mentor, Ohio recently had a huge budget crisis due to the incompetence of the school administration. However, instead of resigning or taking a pay cut, they kept their jobs and instead closed schools and laid off teachers. This is the problem with the schools.

Vetalia

04-07-2005, 04:30

And unfunded federal mandates have to be eliminated.

They don't help and just create more paperwork Accountability should be based upon how the students do in the classes and how well prepared they are, not how they do on some test that attempts to standardize all students.

Dobbsworld

04-07-2005, 04:30

How strong is the UAW in Canada compared to The United States?

The CAW is one of Canada's largest unions, and reputedly quite powerful, though I am uncertain of the veracity of that last.

Celtlund

04-07-2005, 04:36

This creates more employments. Southern United States - agricultural land. Toronto, is the largest major urban centre in Canada. If they were to build it in the South, a lot of people would leave their farming jobs. (I am sure they have other jobs, but agricultural is the major employment opportunity within that area, correct?)

You might want to do a little more research on this before you come to a conclusion about the "major employment opportunity" in the Southern USA.

NERVUN

04-07-2005, 04:38

Lots, so where do I start?
1. Allow competition in primary and secondary education by approving vouchers. The public education system will be forced to improve in order to stay in business.
Goverment is not a business, nor do business practices translate into good educational practices. A few more points on this, the amount of students needed to be educated is staggering, then add in the remote locations that students live in where it is not cost effective to open a school (as case in point, rural Nevada schools sometimes operate with around 15 students because busing them to the nearest school would require over 3 hours of travel). You can't really expect to pull a kid out and do comparision shopping for schools (I think I'll try CHS vs DHS this week) like you can for supermarkets. Finally, no one has ever really said what happens when said businesses go belly up, except that usually the local school district suddenly has to absorb more students than were counted and budgeted for.

2. Abolish tenure in the public education system. Incompetent teachers should be fired and good teachers should be rewarded.
Good idea, to a point. Two questions, how would you define a 'good' teacher? And are you willing to raise your taxes in order to pay good teachers better?

3. Put more of the education dollars into career education. Unfortunately, our public education system is geared toward college. Most high school graduates do not go on to college and of those who do a very small percent graduate in four years. Those who do not go to college or drop out of college are ill prepared to compete in the job market.
A little iffy, many students go on to some form of post secondary schooling, the number is actually quite high, and an icreasing number of students go on to full college or university for a four year degree. The problem with the job market isn't so much as our students are not geared for it, as the jobs that require only a high school diploma are shrinking. Right now, many non-service industry jobs that pay well are either being moved, downsized, or changed to needing a 4 year degree. Also, part of the problem we're having with getting boys to college is that the career track offers good money fast, and looks easier to boys in high school than a college track where they would earn more over their lifetime, if they work and graduate. Meaning asking students to make their career choices in their freshman year of high school might be a bit much.

4. Put more emphasis on educating the child and less emphasis on testing the child to see if he/she meets grade level or some “national standard.” The child should be taught the material, evaluated on what is taught, and then advanced or retained based on the evaluation. No more social promotions if you don’t pass you don’t move on.Most teachers would love this and usually follow this. I just love the irony that parents are the ones who scream the loudest for this, until I fail their son or daughter THEN they suddenly just start yelling (Usually along the lines of 'How DARE you!').

Celtlund

04-07-2005, 04:40

Hmm, ok, let me be a wee bit more specific.

US laws mandates education till age 18 or high school graduation, whichever comes first.

The mandantory education age/level is set by the states or individual school districts, not the Federal government. Not all of them mandate age 18 or graduation. In some districts students can drop out at age 16.

Celtlund

04-07-2005, 04:43

The local school district in Mentor, Ohio recently had a huge budget crisis due to the incompetence of the school administration. However, instead of resigning or taking a pay cut, they kept their jobs and instead closed schools and laid off teachers. This is the problem with the schools.

And not just in Ohio.

Daydream Nation

04-07-2005, 04:44

It's nice to see my hometown of Woodstock, Ontario recognized for something other than for briefly holding the world milking record (and our cow statue, to that effect).

Celtlund

04-07-2005, 05:08

Goverment is not a business, nor do business practices translate into good educational practices.

This is true, but under the present system, there is no incentive for the public education system to make any meaningful improvement. Obviously, vouchers would not work in the more rural areas of the US, but the major problems are in the urban areas, and we must start some place. What are the alternatives?

Good idea, to a point. Two questions, how would you define a 'good' teacher? And are you willing to raise your taxes in order to pay good teachers better?

As each school district is at least semi-autonomous, it would be up to them to define what is a good, average, or poor teacher. As far as the money goes, if the school districts did away with the administrative bloat, and the Feds did away with the unfunded mandates perhaps there would be enough money available without raising taxes.

A little iffy, many students go on to some form of post secondary schooling, the number is actually quite high, and an icreasing number of students go on to full college or university for a four year degree.

The research I did on this 6 or 7 years ago does not support this. Only about 30% went on to some form of higher education and a majority of them did not graduate. I hope you are right and the statistics have changed. I do hope more are going on to higher Ed and completing their course of study.

As for the boys taking a career or vocational track is concerned, we must remember that not all students want to go to college. Some actually do want to become mechanics, plumbers, etc. Unfortunately, the public education system does a very poor job of preparing them for careers.

Most teachers would love this and usually follow this. I just love the irony that parents are the ones who scream the loudest for this, until I fail their son or daughter THEN they suddenly just start yelling (Usually along the lines of 'How DARE you!').

Unfortunately, very true.

NERVUN

04-07-2005, 05:51

This is true, but under the present system, there is no incentive for the public education system to make any meaningful improvement. Obviously, vouchers would not work in the more rural areas of the US, but the major problems are in the urban areas, and we must start some place. What are the alternatives?
I would disagree that there isn't any incentive, most public education teachers I've run into/worked with/studied with want to improve and are looking for ways to improve. What we run into is the quick fix idea. The quick fix idea is the notion that schools can be magically changed by implimentation of x program or of the addition of x amount of dollars. This is usually done within an election cycle so said politician can claim credit for 'fixing' the schools. Usually after x program is implimented, there is a slight rise in grades or whatever factor it is, but that is usually do to the novlety of whatever program x WAS. The notion that schools reflect the society that built them is never really serously considered (think of how we refer to them, as if they are somehow immune and apart from the 'real world'). Given that schools DO reflect society, it will take much, much more to start to fix them than any politican or the public is willing to do.

As each school district is at least semi-autonomous, it would be up to them to define what is a good, average, or poor teacher. As far as the money goes, if the school districts did away with the administrative bloat, and the Feds did away with the unfunded mandates perhaps there would be enough money available without raising taxes.
The fear I have and it is starting to come true, is that the mark would be tied into test scores, which causes teachers to teach the test and only the test. As for the money, the money a teacher is paid is very, very small. Tenure is actually one of the few perks to the job. There's a really large gap between teaching and other profesional positions unfortuneately.

The research I did on this 6 or 7 years ago does not support this. Only about 30% went on to some form of higher education and a majority of them did not graduate. I hope you are right and the statistics have changed. I do hope more are going on to higher Ed and completing their course of study.
When last I looked at this for my master's program (About a year ago), some 42% of the US population has some form of secondary schooling and the number is rising quickly. It is very quickly becoming an issue of space and trying to handle all these students. The national adverage of compleating a 4 year degree is around 72%, however the adverage time is now 5.5 years.

As for the boys taking a career or vocational track is concerned, we must remember that not all students want to go to college. Some actually do want to become mechanics, plumbers, etc. Unfortunately, the public education system does a very poor job of preparing them for careers.
I agree. The concern with tracking students though is still valid, how do you make sure that students really know what they want and are not forced into one track or the other? In my own case, my high school 'guide' flat out told me that a technical track was the best I could hope for, and maybe I might go to community college.

Too bad she retired before I could go back and rub my MS in her face. Oh well.

Unfortunately, very true.
Yup!

Oye Oye

04-07-2005, 14:33

Part of the problem now is a lot of that money is being spent on administration not in the classroom. If the administrative bloat were reduced, more money would be available for the classroom and class sizes could be reduced.

I'm curious if you or anyone else could tell me how the allotment of funds to the U.S. education system works. As I mentioned I have two cousins who work as teachers in Orange County. The grade school they teach in has facilities that rival most post secondary institutes I have seen in South America, the Phillipines and even Canada. Yet I have also seen the conditions of inner city schools in the U.S. which are much lower than several "third world" equivalents.

Iztatepopotla

04-07-2005, 15:34

I don't really think it has to do with the quality of education. Southern Ontario has lost a few plants in the past months, which has left a lot of trained people without a job. Understandably, these people will now be easier to train for any new employer moving in.

It's simply free markets in action, levelling themselves.

[NS]Ihatevacations

04-07-2005, 15:39

Nimharamafala

04-07-2005, 15:45

Why? Canadians are literate and Southerners need to be taught with pictures.

I don't necissarily think that's the whole idea of the move. Autoparts are Canada's biggest industry (that's right, autoparts, NOT beaver pelts). I'd like to think that they made the decition based on experance, available labour, knowlege in the field ect. and maybe a little bit of literacy.

GrandBill

04-07-2005, 17:48

I would have had a good laugh at you, but unfortunately our Quebec school system is also falling apart. The best way they found to help less intelligent kid, is lowering the standard...

Elementary and high school don't give mark/grade anymore to evaluate student. Instead they give a appreciation on different competence. Ex: ability to understand a text; exceed expectation, above average, average, improve difficulty, fail.

To help the massive college dropout (in Quebec we have a 2 years of college between high school and university, 3 years if you take a professional program like dental technician) they now give them a diploma saying they did the program but didn't finish it.

The university standard are falling apart, in most program anybody can obtain there degree with little to no effort. the result is that we have a shipload of graduated people with shitty job. Internet company recruit engineer for there technical assistance help line and business graduate for customer support.

Sarkasis

04-07-2005, 18:09

Elementary and high school don't give mark/grade anymore to evaluate student. Instead they give a appreciation on different competence. Ex: ability to understand a text; exceed expectation, above average, average, improve difficulty, fail.
The Quebec school board is moving back to mark/grades. Most teachers are happy, anyway, some of them weren't even using the "competency-based evaluation" thing, which nobody could understand anyway.
By the way, this system was based on the Switzerland school system... which has shown to be a total failure recently.
In the 1980s, the biggest problem in Quebec was the number of students in classrooms; having 35+ students for 1 teacher, in primary school, was common. It has been improved over time.
The current problem is multifold.
- school libraries are empty (lack of books, lack of funding)
- children have trouble learning to read/write
- parents don't give a shit, won't help at home, and expect the school to teach life, good manners & morale to their kids... but still they keep complaining at any problem (I pay --> I complain)
- too many "reforms"; time to choose one system and keep it for a few years, whatever the provincial elections & change of minister give (minister: "Oh, I'll reform it all, I'll be remembered as a great reformer" -- yeah right, they all think that way)

King Graham IV

04-07-2005, 18:53

Celtlund

04-07-2005, 19:32

The current problem is multifold.
- school libraries are empty (lack of books, lack of funding)
- children have trouble learning to read/write
- parents don't give a shit, won't help at home, and expect the school to teach life, good manners & morale to their kids... but still they keep complaining at any problem (I pay --> I complain)
- too many "reforms"; time to choose one system and keep it for a few years, whatever the provincial elections & change of minister give (minister: "Oh, I'll reform it all, I'll be remembered as a great reformer" -- yeah right, they all think that way)

Exactly the same problems we are having in the US.

Celtlund

04-07-2005, 19:37

I think this is a major problem in the States that you HAVE to stay on till you are 18, as some people at 16 want to be independant and don't want to be told what to do.

In most states in the US allows students to drop out at 16. I like your idea of looking at other successful systems, see what they are doing right, and adopting some of their practices. I believe Japan also has an excellent system.

Oye Oye

04-07-2005, 20:25

In Britain, America has always been the basis of all jokes especially with their seemingly lack of interllect on the whole (no offence). There are people that are very clever in the States, Bill Gates being the obvious example, even the President is clever its just that he does not show it very well due to his tendency to say things before he thinks them through ( I believe he has a degree from Harvard).

So...as it seems that the US educational system is not exactly in a good one, perhaps they should try basing it on other countries, such as the UK. I am not saying the UK system is perfect (far from it in fact!) but in comparison (on results) it scores much higher than the US system, so perhaps a good course of action would be to look at and improve upon the British educational system and also other countries.

The educational system in Britain is very intensive on scholars, basically they are tested (seriously, written exams which are externally marked by exam boards) at ages 7, 11, 13, 16 and 18 if they stay on after 16. So as you can see, pupils learn how to pass exams from an early age and grow up with exams, this obviously has drawbacks (like any system) but seems to create good results.

I believe in the States all people are forced to stay on until they are 18? In Britain, this age is reduced to 16 so that people can leave and find work or got to college at this age, as lets face it not everyone is up for school and will not want to do academic studies when they could be doing some kind of apprenticeship or something. I think this is a major problem in the States that you HAVE to stay on till you are 18, as some people at 16 want to be independant and don't want to be told what to do.

Money is good, bu it has to be spent wisely, and the only way you can spend money wisely is by having a plan of action which is likely to work, you have to do research and this should be on other systems that work better than your own.

I am not saying our system is perfect, just that it seems to work better than yours lol!!!

It seems that both the Canadian and the American education system suffer from similar flaws, although the direction of U.S. education appears far worse considering that "football" (I'm guessing this is rugby with helmets) is such a high priority. But other than the fact that you say students should be allowed to leave school at 16 to find jobs, most of your observations regarding the British education system don't really demonstrate why the U.S. or Canada should look to the U.K. as a model.

You can test students all you want and make the tests as difficult as possible, but what good does it do society if the subject matter is academic? For example, I had a teacher who would give us multiple choice tests that would say;

The minute men were; a. British Expatriates b. American Colonials c. Pioneers d. (both a and b) e. (both b and c) f. All of the above g. none of the above

We'd have an hour to answer one hundred questions like that, but this was nothing more than a regurgitation of facts. You could get a perfect score on a test like that and still not understand why the War for Independence occured.

GrandBill

04-07-2005, 21:17

The Quebec school board is moving back to mark/grades. Most teachers are happy, anyway, some of them weren't even using the "competency-based evaluation" thing, which nobody could understand anyway.
By the way, this system was based on the Switzerland school system... which has shown to be a total failure recently.

Yeah, I remember reading they recognized it was a failure, but I have red on cyberpresse this morning that high school was going to adopt the system in September :(

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/actualites/article/article_complet.php?path=/actualites/article/04/1,63,0,072005,1090445.php

google translation for non-french

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cyberpresse.ca%2Factualites%2Farticle%2Farticle_complet.php%3Fpath%3D%2 Factualites%2Farticle%2F04%2F1%2C63%2C0%2C072005%2C1090445.php&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

In the 1980s, the biggest problem in Quebec was the number of students in classrooms; having 35+ students for 1 teacher, in primary school, was common. It has been improved over time.
The current problem is multifold.
- school libraries are empty (lack of books, lack of funding)
- children have trouble learning to read/write
- parents don't give a shit, won't help at home, and expect the school to teach life, good manners & morale to their kids... but still they keep complaining at any problem (I pay --> I complain)
- too many "reforms"; time to choose one system and keep it for a few years, whatever the provincial elections & change of minister give (minister: "Oh, I'll reform it all, I'll be remembered as a great reformer" -- yeah right, they all think that way)

Very true, especially the last 2 IMO

Epsonee

04-07-2005, 22:06

According to the propaganda, Canada does better than the US in international testing. which is good, but our education has flaws too. For example, in B.C. schools the following apply....

- school libraries are empty (lack of books, lack of funding)
- children have trouble learning to read/write
- parents don't give a shit, won't help at home, and expect the school to teach life, good manners & morale to their kids... but still they keep complaining at any problem (I pay --> I complain)
that way)

plus
-some schools have libraries open only one or two days a week
-in some regions, schools are open only four days a week
-if important maintenience is needed (heater breaks down) the school has to wait for parent to phone before they fix it, it won't get fixed if the teachers or students complain.

In regards to the problem with the US system, it think the problem may be the schools are not allowing compition between students. According to a author who appeared on the Daily Show, stundents are not allowed to play tag at some schools because parents complain about it. The child is sad (s)he lost, tells parent, parent doesn't want to deal with the problem so (s)he complains to the schoolboard. In other schools they cannot give students bad grades because it makes them sad. Here in Canada, many student spend the some of the year failing at least one course and had to get allot of help to avoid failing. The US system is being made a little easier to get through and ours trying to make it harder to get through (our provincial exams are being taken by younger students and are being made harder). There are other problems with the system but I think this problem is important and relatively overlooked.

OceanDrive2

04-07-2005, 22:33

- too many "reforms"; time to choose one system and keep it for a few years, whatever the provincial elections & change of minister give (minister: "Oh, I'll reform it all, I'll be remembered as a great reformer" -- yeah right, they all think that way)
Yeah, I remember reading they recognized it was a failure, but I have red on cyberpresse this morning that high school was going to adopt the system in September :(
this is how I grade the Education Boards & Education Ministers:

F

for Failing

Swimmingpool

04-07-2005, 23:27

I'll bet that B0zzy and Myromidisia (sp?) completely ignore this thread, since it is at odds with their ideology.

You voted twice for a President who is spending billions of dollars in a vain attempt to fight two wars simultaneously and your wondering why your education system sucks?
That's fine, but cutting taxes while doing it is just plain foolish.

GrandBill

05-07-2005, 00:07

this is how I grade the Education Boards & Education Ministers:

F

for Failing

My theory on civil is servant from different ministry is they will stop doing nothing and create/invent a reform every now and then to justify there grossly overpaid job

Oye Oye

05-07-2005, 00:26

I'll bet that B0zzy and Myromidisia (sp?) completely ignore this thread, since it is at odds with their ideology.

That's fine, but cutting taxes while doing it is just plain foolish.

I realise the War for Independence began when a bunch of wealthy slave owners decided they didn't want to pay their taxes, (I got that from Dazed and Confused) but why are people from the U.S. so uptight about increasing taxes when it might benefit them in the long run?

Vetalia

05-07-2005, 00:30

I realise the War for Independence began when a bunch of wealthy slave owners decided they didn't want to pay their taxes, (I got that from Dazed and Confused) but why are people from the U.S. so uptight about increasing taxes when it might benefit them in the long run?

It's cultural. A lot of Americans would rather keep their money and spend it on what they believe is best for them rather than giving it to the government to decide this for them. Taxes sparked our Revolution, so it became firmly intrenched in our culture. Good thing in my opinion as a worker.

NERVUN

05-07-2005, 00:31

I'm curious if you or anyone else could tell me how the allotment of funds to the U.S. education system works. As I mentioned I have two cousins who work as teachers in Orange County. The grade school they teach in has facilities that rival most post secondary institutes I have seen in South America, the Phillipines and even Canada. Yet I have also seen the conditions of inner city schools in the U.S. which are much lower than several "third world" equivalents.
Since no one answered your question, it depends a great deal on the state and local school board, with each state doing it a different way. My own state devleoped what is known as the Nevada formula, which is used as a basis in funding for a good chunk of the US, your actual milage may vary of course.

How this works is that the state legislature meets and decides upon what level the schools will be funded per student. The more students, the more money. Once this level is decreed (In Nevada, it's around $2,000 per student), the state then looks at the taxes collected by the district and matches that against the funding level already decided. If a district is able to, through taxes, able to fund students at $1,500 per, the state give $500 per student to the district to bring the level to whatever the funding level is that year. Given Nevada's legislature meets every other year, they also tack on a growth persentage to cover growth (and it never does, unless the school shrinks).

Sometime within the first week of school is the great nose count to determine student enrollment for the funds per school, and schools try to boost their count as much as they can.

Each district also has the power to float bonds for construction/renovation (usually with voter approval), and each school receives federal funds for various federal programs such as free and reduced lunchs/breakfasts, as well as grants.

Where the dispardy of schools starts croping up is in each school's ability to fund raise on its own. The state monies never cover all expenses or programs, so this is where grant writing as well as parent contrabutions come in. Schools in more afluent neighborhoods have an advantage in getting suchs funds as opposed to those who are not in weathly neighborhoods.

Long post, so sorry about that, but I hope it answers your question. Again though, each state goes about this a different way.

NERVUN

05-07-2005, 00:35

In most states in the US allows students to drop out at 16. I like your idea of looking at other successful systems, see what they are doing right, and adopting some of their practices. I believe Japan also has an excellent system.
It's a mixed bag over here. My kids do things that I would love to see my American students do, but there are also problems and short comings here that I am amazed have been going on as they have been controled in America.

BTW, you are correct in that American states will allow a student to drop out at 16 if they so wish, but in my orginal post I should have explained what I was comparing to. In many countries, high school is optional. Our kids quit, some of theirs never go.

Oye Oye

05-07-2005, 00:48

[QUOTE]Since no one answered your question, it depends a great deal on the state and local school board, with each state doing it a different way. My own state devleoped what is known as the Nevada formula, which is used as a basis in funding for a good chunk of the US, your actual milage may vary of course.

How this works is that the state legislature meets and decides upon what level the schools will be funded per student. The more students, the more money. Once this level is decreed (In Nevada, it's around $2,000 per student), the state then looks at the taxes collected by the district and matches that against the funding level already decided. If a district is able to, through taxes, able to fund students at $1,500 per, the state give $500 per student to the district to bring the level to whatever the funding level is that year. Given Nevada's legislature meets every other year, they also tack on a growth persentage to cover growth (and it never does, unless the school shrinks).

Sometime within the first week of school is the great nose count to determine student enrollment for the funds per school, and schools try to boost their count as much as they can.

Does this mean schools intentionally overcrowd the classrooms in order to get more money?

Each district also has the power to float bonds for construction/renovation (usually with voter approval), and each school receives federal funds for various federal programs such as free and reduced lunchs/breakfasts, as well as grants.

In Colombia education for minors is compulsory, yet children have to pay tuition beginning in grade school and in addition they must buy their books, uniforms etc. Yet they have great respect for their teachers. I know several teachers from the U.S. who have moved to Colombia and stay because even though they earn less money they feel more appreciated. How would you compare this with the lack of respect many teachers receive in the U.S.?
Do you think this lack of respect is one of the main reasons why students don't learn? Would this lack of respect be cured by raising teachers salaries, thus raising their level of stature in society?

Where the dispardy of schools starts croping up is in each school's ability to fund raise on its own. The state monies never cover all expenses or programs, so this is where grant writing as well as parent contrabutions come in. Schools in more afluent neighborhoods have an advantage in getting suchs funds as opposed to those who are not in weathly neighborhoods.

Do you know what percentage the community contribution accounts for? Personally I see huge differences between schools in the state of California.

NERVUN

05-07-2005, 01:21

Does this mean schools intentionally overcrowd the classrooms in order to get more money?
Not in quite that way. What I have seen though is during the day of the great nose count, EVERYONE is required to be at school, even students who are then more or less allowed to go their own way are at school. Pretty much a school will try to get any child within its boundries to the building on that day, even if the day after the count, said child is moving out of state.

In Colombia education for minors is compulsory, yet children have to pay tuition beginning in grade school and in addition they must buy their books, uniforms etc. Yet they have great respect for their teachers. I know several teachers from the U.S. who have moved to Colombia and stay because even though they earn less money they feel more appreciated. How would you compare this with the lack of respect many teachers receive in the U.S.?
Do you think this lack of respect is one of the main reasons why students don't learn? Would this lack of respect be cured by raising teachers salaries, thus raising their level of stature in society?
It's a part of it, but not the whole of it. There are many, many reasons why children don't learn. They range from trouble at home, to learning disabilities, to just flat out refusal. I think part of the problem is that education is not held in high regard, not to what I have seen in other countries. In America, we are taught as part of our national heratage that anyone, regardless of education, can become president, and that many of our most famous and rich people did not compleate or have an education (or somehow over came a poor education). When you look at the sports or entertainment world, a lot of these folks quit or dropped out to go after their whatever it was, and education does not play a part in their current careers, which is making them rich and famous.

Teching though, has also been viewed in America as the job you go to when you can't do anything else, those who can't teach as it is said. It's almost like the majority of America thinks that since they survived 12 years of school, they are better qualified to be a teacher. Paying teachers more would be nice, but American views of teachers and school needs to be changed. I do earn more money in Japan as an assistant English teacher than I would at home, but the respect that the Japanese show to ANYONE called sensei is amazing when I compare it to how it was at home when I told people I was a teacher. The community support is much higher as well.

Do you know what percentage the community contribution accounts for? Personally I see huge differences between schools in the state of California.
I do not, but I do know that no state I am aware of says that school districts cannot spend more than the state level if they so choose. Richer districts will often go far beyond the level to create schools. Like I said, the state level is never enough, so yes, districts right next to each other will show some startling disparides just because one draws from affluent neighborhoods, and one is industrial.

Oye Oye

05-07-2005, 01:42

Not in quite that way. What I have seen though is during the day of the great nose count, EVERYONE is required to be at school, even students who are then more or less allowed to go their own way are at school. Pretty much a school will try to get any child within its boundries to the building on that day, even if the day after the count, said child is moving out of state.

It's a part of it, but not the whole of it. There are many, many reasons why children don't learn. They range from trouble at home, to learning disabilities, to just flat out refusal. I think part of the problem is that education is not held in high regard, not to what I have seen in other countries. In America, we are taught as part of our national heratage that anyone, regardless of education, can become president, and that many of our most famous and rich people did not compleate or have an education (or somehow over came a poor education). When you look at the sports or entertainment world, a lot of these folks quit or dropped out to go after their whatever it was, and education does not play a part in their current careers, which is making them rich and famous.

Teching though, has also been viewed in America as the job you go to when you can't do anything else, those who can't teach as it is said. It's almost like the majority of America thinks that since they survived 12 years of school, they are better qualified to be a teacher. Paying teachers more would be nice, but American views of teachers and school needs to be changed. I do earn more money in Japan as an assistant English teacher than I would at home, but the respect that the Japanese show to ANYONE called sensei is amazing when I compare it to how it was at home when I told people I was a teacher. The community support is much higher as well.

I do not, but I do know that no state I am aware of says that school districts cannot spend more than the state level if they so choose. Richer districts will often go far beyond the level to create schools. Like I said, the state level is never enough, so yes, districts right next to each other will show some startling disparides just because one draws from affluent neighborhoods, and one is industrial.

I've highlighted what appears to be your thesis statement. Yet in the paragraph that follows you go over several examples of why teachers are not respected in U.S. culture. Since U.S. culture is essentially a capitalist society in which material wealth is often viewed with higher regard than spiritual well being or intellect, wouldn't respect for teachers increase if they were given higher salaries? Wouldn't raising the wage for the average teacher at least ensure that more qualified instructors were in the classroom?

NERVUN

05-07-2005, 02:01

I've highlighted what appears to be your thesis statement. Yet in the paragraph that follows you go over several examples of why teachers are not respected in U.S. culture. Since U.S. culture is essentially a capitalist society in which material wealth is often viewed with higher regard than spiritual well being or intellect, wouldn't respect for teachers increase if they were given higher salaries? Wouldn't raising the wage for the average teacher at least ensure that more qualified instructors were in the classroom?Hmm... a complicated question. Money does not always equal respect within America (CEOs and politicans make a lot, but usually do not command respect, except among their followers). I think higher pay would help a great deal when it comes to getting better qualified teachers into the classrooms. Teachers are expected to somehow be highly learned, a master at their given subject, but are also willing to be paid less than their skills would command just becuse of their love of teaching. Which might work if all teachers didn't need to support familes or this was the days when teachers were women and did this as something to do while their husbands were at work.

So I think it would help, but to start to gain respect? Not really. America almost seems to wallow in anti-intellectualism. A serious insult is being called an intellectual elist, whatever that is. We put them in the ivory tower and state that they are out of touch with 'real' America (whatever that is as well). People who come to America from cultures who value teachers treat teachers better, their children see that and pass it on. Americans however (not all of them of course) can be seen yelling at teachers, or declaring that teachers or schools are worthless. What message does that send to their children?

In many cases, teachers hold compariable degrees to parents, if not higher, but they are still treated as if teaching is something you do when you can't get a 'real' job. That's why I don't think money would change it a whole lot as it is this attitude that needs to be changed. It's also why I said that to actually fix or change schools is going to take a lot of work, more than anyone is really willing to put into it.

Oye Oye

05-07-2005, 02:23

[QUOTE]Hmm... a complicated question. Money does not always equal respect within America (CEOs and politicans make a lot, but usually do not command respect, except among their followers). I think higher pay would help a great deal when it comes to getting better qualified teachers into the classrooms. Teachers are expected to somehow be highly learned, a master at their given subject, but are also willing to be paid less than their skills would command just becuse of their love of teaching. Which might work if all teachers didn't need to support familes or this was the days when teachers were women and did this as something to do while their husbands were at work.

I don't know how far back you're going, but I was always under the impression that teaching in the Americas began with the missionaries. This is definitely true in Latin America and Canada. Both French and Spanish culture had a great deal of reverence for religion.

So I think it would help, but to start to gain respect? Not really. America almost seems to wallow in anti-intellectualism. A serious insult is being called an intellectual elist, whatever that is. We put them in the ivory tower and state that they are out of touch with 'real' America (whatever that is as well). People who come to America from cultures who value teachers treat teachers better, their children see that and pass it on. Americans however (not all of them of course) can be seen yelling at teachers, or declaring that teachers or schools are worthless. What message does that send to their children?

But don't you think the lack of respect parents have for teachers comes from the fact that they don't see them as economic equals?

In many cases, teachers hold compariable degrees to parents, if not higher, but they are still treated as if teaching is something you do when you can't get a 'real' job. That's why I don't think money would change it a whole lot as it is this attitude that needs to be changed. It's also why I said that to actually fix or change schools is going to take a lot of work, more than anyone is really willing to put into it.

My geography teacher had a saying; "Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach, teach phys ed."

If teachers had higher salaries wouldn't it become a sought after position. Instead of something that is viewed as something to fall back on in case plan A doesn't work?

P.S. You also mentioned the scenario of the CEO. But if you were to run into someone who made millions of dollars a day, wouldn't you treat him as someone who had some advice to offer you? From what I understand, there are a lot of kids in inner cities who can make more money on a few drug deals than their teacher makes in an entire year. What do they have to learn from someone who makes less then they do?

NERVUN

05-07-2005, 02:43

I don't know how far back you're going, but I was always under the impression that teaching in the Americas began with the missionaries. This is definitely true in Latin America and Canada. Both French and Spanish culture had a great deal of reverence for religion.
Very true, but only along the west coast or the Mississippi. I was actually refrencing the colonial period and from the Revolution on up, and that is mainly British and German.

But don't you think the lack of respect parents have for teachers comes from the fact that they don't see them as economic equals?
Part of it yes, but I honestly do think there's more too it, a sence that education is not a valuable as other things. Equal pay WOULD raise the regard, but not compleatly eliminate it.

My geography teacher had a saying; "Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach, teach phys ed."

If teachers had higher salaries wouldn't it become a sought after position. Instead of something that is viewed as something to fall back on in case plan A doesn't work? It might, again though, it is still seen as a soft option. Most of my friends were engineers, they had a saying that a student started out in Engineering, goes to Business, trys Journalism, and ends up in Education. I usually responded by threating to lock them in a room with my students and see how they delt with it. ;) Again, it's seen as the soft option and I don't think it's really has to do with money. Part of it, I think, is this idea that they went through 12 years of school and to a kid, teaching seems so easy with kids not seeing half of what teachers actually DO (nor does the general public). So the assumtion is that all teachers do is stand in front of a class of kids and read from a textbook, how much easier can you get?

P.S. You also mentioned the scenario of the CEO. But if you were to run into someone who made millions of dollars a day, wouldn't you treat him as someone who had some advice to offer you? From what I understand, there are a lot of kids in inner cities who can make more money on a few drug deals than their teacher makes in an entire year. What do they have to learn from someone who makes less then they do?
Quite right, but I'm talking as a class. Most people have great respect for indivdual teachers (I'm sure you have warm regards for some of yours, right?) but as a class... Same with CEOs.

But your final point is part of the problem, they see easy money that doesn't require sitting through boring classes. Why study if you can get more if you leave school? Kids aren't known for long term planning after all.

Haverton

05-07-2005, 02:54

It's not racism, the company has had problems in the past with workers in the same area who have had to be taught with pictures how to use the equipment because they were illiterate. Perhaps your friends are from different states or richer areas than the location of the proposed plant.

Perhaps because the town is a shit-poor dumbass ghetto!

It doesn't really matter, anyway. At least 2 or 3 other companies have built plants in Alabama and Mississippi. It's only one stumble in the general economic improvement of the Sun Belt over the traditional Northern manufacturing areas.

Oye Oye

05-07-2005, 03:08

[QUOTE]Part of it yes, but I honestly do think there's more too it, a sence that education is not a valuable as other things. Equal pay WOULD raise the regard, but not compleatly eliminate it.

Could you give me examples of things that are valued in the U.S. other than money?

It might, again though, it is still seen as a soft option. Most of my friends were engineers, they had a saying that a student started out in Engineering, goes to Business, trys Journalism, and ends up in Education. I usually responded by threating to lock them in a room with my students and see how they delt with it. ;) Again, it's seen as the soft option and I don't think it's really has to do with money. Part of it, I think, is this idea that they went through 12 years of school and to a kid, teaching seems so easy with kids not seeing half of what teachers actually DO (nor does the general public). So the assumtion is that all teachers do is stand in front of a class of kids and read from a textbook, how much easier can you get?

Yes, but how many years of school did Shaquil O'Neil go through? I bet he's far more respected by U.S. highschool kids than your engineering friends.

Quite right, but I'm talking as a class. Most people have great respect for indivdual teachers (I'm sure you have warm regards for some of yours, right?) but as a class... Same with CEOs.

I respected the teachers who demonstrated a passion for what they were teaching and the patience to properly explain the material, much in the way you are demonstrating patience with me. But there were a lot of teachers who I felt did not belong in front of the classroom. I have felt this way about several teachers from grade school to university.

But your final point is part of the problem, they see easy money that doesn't require sitting through boring classes. Why study if you can get more if you leave school? Kids aren't known for long term planning after all.

But if students saw someone who stood at the front of the class who possessed a bit of affluence, lived in a nice house, drove a nice car and didn't have to break the law to do it, maybe they would think twice about dealing rocks.

But let's digress from the issue of money for a moment. Who do you think teenagers should have for a role model?

MILITARISTIC CYBORGS

05-07-2005, 03:24

The CAW is one of Canada's largest unions, and reputedly quite powerful, though I am uncertain of the veracity of that last.

It's one of the powerful ones (the big 3) you got the CAW (Canadian Auto Workers. which I am a member of ;) ) CUPE (Canadian Union of Public Employees) But i can't remember the third member of the 'Big 3' Can anyone refresh my memory?? :D

NERVUN

05-07-2005, 03:58

Could you give me examples of things that are valued in the U.S. other than money?
I think it's not so much as other things are valued than money (and there are more than enough people on THIS forum who will state what) as it's other ways than a good education in getting said money are considered more valuable.

Yes, but how many years of school did Shaquil O'Neil go through? I bet he's far more respected by U.S. highschool kids than your engineering friends.True, but is he respcted due to his MBA, or the fact that he plays basketball? Holding an MBA makes him rather unique or in a minority amoung pro players who hit the draft as soon as they can in college.

I respected the teachers who demonstrated a passion for what they were teaching and the patience to properly explain the material, much in the way you are demonstrating patience with me. But there were a lot of teachers who I felt did not belong in front of the classroom. I have felt this way about several teachers from grade school to university.
Myself as well, inlcuding teachers I have worked with as a teacher. No, in that aspect, I agree with the reformers, tenure does protect those teachers who should NOT be in a class. The problem is, how do you seperate the good from the bad?

But if students saw someone who stood at the front of the class who possessed a bit of affluence, lived in a nice house, drove a nice car and didn't have to break the law to do it, maybe they would think twice about dealing rocks.
I would hope so, and teachers do have an infulance and have changed lives (my own inlcluded), but teachers are not the only infulance upon children.

But let's digress from the issue of money for a moment. Who do you think teenagers should have for a role model?
That IS hard. I think I better way to look at it, for me at least, is should people whom children look up to (be it the president/teacher/parent/sports star/actor/etc.) be more aware of being idolized by these kids and act accordingly. To me, that answer is yes. I can't really make kids choose a role model I would like, and some role models do a really good job at being aware of their influance and act in a way to steer kids well.

It's those who don't...

What do you think?

Gulf Republics

05-07-2005, 04:03

Honestly does it really matter? canada is an ally, if toyota picked like Iran or Europe or something then everybody can be pissed about it.

We need a North American Union just to piss off the Europe people some more.

Sarkasis

05-07-2005, 04:06

CSN
Teamsters

MILITARISTIC CYBORGS

05-07-2005, 04:06

Oye Oye

05-07-2005, 05:43

lol then what would we call it? "The United States Of North America"? :D

How about the Gringo Canuck Connection? (or NAFTA)

Leonstein

05-07-2005, 05:49

We need a North American Union just to piss off the Europe people some more.
:D
Knowing that Unions are such a socialist thing to have.....

Oye Oye

05-07-2005, 05:58

[QUOTE]I think it's not so much as other things are valued than money (and there are more than enough people on THIS forum who will state what) as it's other ways than a good education in getting said money are considered more valuable.

But what do you think is a common thread among people living in the U.S.?

True, but is he respcted due to his MBA, or the fact that he plays basketball? Holding an MBA makes him rather unique or in a minority amoung pro players who hit the draft as soon as they can in college.

I think he's respected more because he makes millions of dollars effortlessly.

Myself as well, inlcuding teachers I have worked with as a teacher. No, in that aspect, I agree with the reformers, tenure does protect those teachers who should NOT be in a class. The problem is, how do you seperate the good from the bad?

My solution would be to raise wages and make classes smaller. This way there are no excuses like that the class is too big or the teachers need to go on strike and if a student or students fail to learn the material, the principle is in a better position to analyse if it is the student's fault or the teachers.

I would hope so, and teachers do have an infulance and have changed lives (my own inlcluded), but teachers are not the only infulance upon children.

True, but at the very least they should be someone students can look up to and go to get advice. The other day, there was a thread about a teacher in Texas who got two of her students to steal her car and set it on fire so she could collect the insurance. How do people like this get into the education system?

That IS hard. I think I better way to look at it, for me at least, is should people whom children look up to (be it the president/teacher/parent/sports star/actor/etc.) be more aware of being idolized by these kids and act accordingly. To me, that answer is yes. I can't really make kids choose a role model I would like, and some role models do a really good job at being aware of their influance and act in a way to steer kids well. It's those who don't...

What do you think?

I think it's the priorities that a culture instills on the individual. You said that people in Japan refer to you as "sensei", a term of respect. I think the problem with North american culture is that too much value is placed on materialism and not enough on intellect.

Schrandtopia

05-07-2005, 06:08

of course they chose Canada, they don't have to put up with American auto unions there

Seangolia

05-07-2005, 07:24

The major problem with Education in the US: Not enough funding. And not enough people willing to pay a tiny amount more for said funding.

A little anecdote:

I went to school in a small town in Mid-Minnesota. They are going through extreme financial problems currently(They need to make up several million dollars). Now, a land-tax levy was put to vote for the past few years, and every time it was shot down. The kicker? The average rate would increase only about 40-50 cents per year. Hardly a strain on people's backs. If the levy had passed, my school would be in good shape. But no... people are stupid. Infact, I remember the exact percent it would be raised by... .009243%. Now, that's a miniscual amount. YOu would not miss this. But, quite frankly, the people in the are are hillybilly hicks(I live here, and I admit this), who can barely do basic math. AND THEN PEOPLE WONDER WHY WE HAVE TO CUT SO MANY PROGRAMS! I have lost all faith in human intelligence.

We also had a bunch of farm-land owners and lake-side owners saying, after the Vote, that they didn't want their land taxed, because it would be alot more money for them. The kicker? THE LEVY SPECIFICALLY SAID THAT FARM LAND AND LAKE LAND WOULD NOT BE AFFECTED BY THE LEVY.

Do you know how frustrating this is? It's not like it was a big secret-over a dozen of open meetings were scheduled, and over half of them nobody showed up. To many people are to lazy to spend a half an hour in their god damn unimportant lives to go and actually learn about things. Damn. Them.

Life is far more frustrating than it needs to be.

On second thought, I have a brilliant idea. Wrestling in our town is really big, we were number one in the state the past few years, and have some of the best wrestlers in the state. Now if the school were to threaten to cut the wrestling program, that would get alot of people's attention. But, one can only hope.

Gulf Republics

05-07-2005, 07:50

Seangolia---

Curious about the funding levels, I looked up your nations 2003 budget. You currently spend 26.4% of the 1.84 trillion total budget on Health and Human Services (department of education recieves 63.2% of the 26.4%)

the biggest piece of the pie. (intrestingly defence was 15.2% of the pie and Social Security 24%)

How can you say they arnt getting enough money? I think the real problem is what they are teaching, and the fact that your nations teacher union has a death grip on any bill that might make them somewhat responsible for how well their students do.

A doctor is responsible for how he treats his patents, a cop is responsible for how he treats the criminals he catches, why not a teacher?

NERVUN

05-07-2005, 07:56

How can you say they arnt getting enough money? I think the real problem is what they are teaching, and the fact that your nations teacher union has a death grip on any bill that might make them somewhat responsible for how well their students do.

A doctor is responsible for how he treats his patents, a cop is responsible for how he treats the criminals he catches, why not a teacher?
Please read my postings in this thread. The federal goverment does not fund schools. It funds SOME federal programs as mandated by law. It also does not set curricula guidelines or evaluates teacher/student performance, all of that is in the hands of the states and the local school boards.

And my question still stands, how do you tell a good teacher from the bad?

NERVUN

05-07-2005, 08:03

But what do you think is a common thread among people living in the U.S.?
*LOL* We're STILL trying to figure that one out ourselves. "What IS this American, this new man?"

I think he's respected more because he makes millions of dollars effortlessly.
Excatly. And the kids see the way to make the money is to play basketball, not go to college or excel in school. Ironically, he, himself, said the MBA was so he had/has something to fall back on should basketball not work out. But many kids aren't getting that message.

My solution would be to raise wages and make classes smaller. This way there are no excuses like that the class is too big or the teachers need to go on strike and if a student or students fail to learn the material, the principle is in a better position to analyse if it is the student's fault or the teachers.
May your solution come true. It still presents the problem of measuring student devlopment, which is a complicated issue, and a hot one in education.

True, but at the very least they should be someone students can look up to and go to get advice. The other day, there was a thread about a teacher in Texas who got two of her students to steal her car and set it on fire so she could collect the insurance. How do people like this get into the education system?
I'd like to say I wish I knew, but right now the teaching profession is rather short staffed. Schools are opening in parts of the country at a terrific rate, but we don't have enough teachers, particularly math and science, to staff them. Furthermore, we have many older teachers about ready to retire and on adverage, most young teachers last two years before changing jobs.

Like the US military, sometimes it's just finding bodies for spots.

I think it's the priorities that a culture instills on the individual. You said that people in Japan refer to you as "sensei", a term of respect. I think the problem with North american culture is that too much value is placed on materialism and not enough on intellect.
And I happen to agree with you on that.

Seangolia

05-07-2005, 08:14

A doctor is responsible for how he treats his patents, a cop is responsible for how he treats the criminals he catches, why not a teacher?

The question is: Why should teachers be held responsible if students don't give a damn? Seriously. A teacher can only do so much. Alot of the disrespect comes straight from parents. Parents, as stated before, do not really consider teaching as a profession. It doesn't make the big bucks. Thus, students are shown by their parents that school is, more or less, pointless.

Also, a great deal of it has to do with the fact that so much emphasis is put on money, and who makes the most money? Athletes. Unfortunately, every 4th-string JV bench warmer thinks that they have an actual shot at becoming a professional athlete. Of course, the number who actually make it to even being considered for recruitment is stageringly low... but by the time these people realize this, they're fat and old, ripe and ready to teach their kids that school is unimportant.

Also, the fact that actual intelligence is shunned in high school.

I could go on and on about how defunct American society is.

NERVUN

05-07-2005, 08:26

I could go on and on about how defunct American society is.
Well, you can join me in this, I've been having fun with it all day long. ;)

Seangolia

05-07-2005, 08:36

Well, you can join me in this, I've been having fun with it all day long. ;)

I would barely consider what we call "culture" as an actually culture. We are a greedy, materialistic people who only care about how to either gain an extra buck or screw the next person over for an extra buck(Or at least the majority appear to be this way). We go from fad to fad trying to be "cool" or "fit in", and in real life we go to jobs of menial importance grinding away doing a job dozens of other people in the same firm or company do, all while living a mundain and boring life, trying to be "normal" and act exactly the same as everybody else because being cool and normal is, of course, the most important thing in life. I barely call America an actual society.

It's truly frustrating how things work here...

And how did we get to talking about American society in a thread about Canadians again? I feel like we may have hijacked it by accident(Or maybe I did by myself).

Gulf Republics

05-07-2005, 08:54

Im telling you guys! We need to form a grandos American Union from Canada to Terra del Fuego! Then..we all get on boats...and go discover europe, then colonize it.

I heard france is willing to trade Paris for a couple of beads and some gunpowder. I honestly think we are getting the short end of the deal...

MILITARISTIC CYBORGS

05-07-2005, 17:32

Seangolia

I don't think you hijacked the thread at least not intentionally. Both Canada and The US pretty much have the same issues that's being discussed. (whether it's outsourcing of jobs, or education and healthcare) I don't know why a change of subject that's indirectly related to the thread at hand is considered hijacking and therefore verboten. Mods care to clarify this for us please?? :D

Whispering Legs

05-07-2005, 18:20

You voted twice for a President who is spending billions of dollars in a vain attempt to fight two wars simultaneously and your wondering why your education system sucks?

P.S. that's not an attack on G.W. that's an attack on you.

The effectiveness of schools has more to do with the effectiveness of parents than it does the qualifications of teachers, the wages of teachers, the equipment present in a building, or how new and spacious the building is.

The education system sucks because the parents suck.

Case in point: The schools in Washington, D.C.

The suburbs are governmentally separate from the city. Some of the suburbs are in Maryland, and some in Virginia.

The schools in the city receive more money per student than any school district in the country. Far more than even the affluent suburbs of Fairfax and Montgomery County. Their teachers are paid far more. Yet the grades, graduation rates, test scores, and any other measure you care to name (let's add "number of students shot to death before graduation") is far worse in Washington, D.C. than in practically any other school district in the country.

By comparison, Fairfax County and Montgomery County are consistently high rated school districts, 30 years running.

Why? Because their parents suck. Stop thinking that government can solve a problem just by throwing money at it - it is completely fallacious and stupid to believe that a government can put up a building, spend money, and magically your children will become more educated and utilize their intelligence in productive ways without the intervention or support of their parents.

Sarkasis

05-07-2005, 18:28

of course they chose Canada, they don't have to put up with American auto unions there
Nope. Same unions run the show in Canada.

Oye Oye

06-07-2005, 01:41

[QUOTE]*LOL* We're STILL trying to figure that one out ourselves. "What IS this American, this new man?"

I might sound ignorant in this assumption but I thought the American dream has always been hailed as economic opportunity and political/religious freedoms. This seems to be what has drawn immigrants to the U.S. dating back to the May Flower.

Excatly. And the kids see the way to make the money is to play basketball, not go to college or excel in school. Ironically, he, himself, said the MBA was so he had/has something to fall back on should basketball not work out. But many kids aren't getting that message.

Then is it an issue of the media's influence on the public's perception of reality? ie. There are a handful of celebrities who make the kind of money shaq does, but because we see them all the time we think this is the norm.

May your solution come true. It still presents the problem of measuring student devlopment, which is a complicated issue, and a hot one in education.

I would think the best way to measure student development is to compare public school students, homeschooled students and private school students to see which system works best then find out why it works best.

I'd like to say I wish I knew, but right now the teaching profession is rather short staffed. Schools are opening in parts of the country at a terrific rate, but we don't have enough teachers, particularly math and science, to staff them. Furthermore, we have many older teachers about ready to retire and on adverage, most young teachers last two years before changing jobs.

In a capitalist society doesn't demand mean an increase in the value of service rendered?

Oye Oye

06-07-2005, 01:47

The effectiveness of schools has more to do with the effectiveness of parents than it does the qualifications of teachers, the wages of teachers, the equipment present in a building, or how new and spacious the building is.

The education system sucks because the parents suck.

Case in point: The schools in Washington, D.C.

The suburbs are governmentally separate from the city. Some of the suburbs are in Maryland, and some in Virginia.

The schools in the city receive more money per student than any school district in the country. Far more than even the affluent suburbs of Fairfax and Montgomery County. Their teachers are paid far more. Yet the grades, graduation rates, test scores, and any other measure you care to name (let's add "number of students shot to death before graduation") is far worse in Washington, D.C. than in practically any other school district in the country.

By comparison, Fairfax County and Montgomery County are consistently high rated school districts, 30 years running.

Why? Because their parents suck. Stop thinking that government can solve a problem just by throwing money at it - it is completely fallacious and stupid to believe that a government can put up a building, spend money, and magically your children will become more educated and utilize their intelligence in productive ways without the intervention or support of their parents.

1. I have seen posts in this forum from Canadians and people from the U.S. who claim that schools are overcrowded. I think Sarkasis mentioned there were over 35 students to a class. You don't think proper allocation of funds would solve this problem?

2. Who has a better chance of succeeding in life in the U.S. a child who attends a private school, a child who is homeschooled, or a child who attends public school?

Bob Greene

06-07-2005, 02:19

Oye Oye

06-07-2005, 03:16

There is no evidence that smaller class sizes make a difference.

Could you direct me to any websites that deal with this issue?

Deviltrainee

06-07-2005, 03:30

this is irony at the best: in the 50's-70's the japanese produced goods and then dumped them here at prices lower than the production cost, and ppl ate it up even while our own companies were falling apart because they could not compete. they did that with all types of products from tvs to cars. and now we cant get them to come here even if we pay them.(the funniest part of all this is that our government just let them do this for decades without imposing tariffs or anything)(oh wait thats not funny at all)

for a little history and a good read everyone should read the book "Rising Sun" i forget who its by right now and im too lazy to google it but its a well known author and its a great book about the japs (economic) warfare during the 70's and how we didnt fight back, arent we a great country?

--edit--
i think it might have been written by tom clancy maybe

Deviltrainee

06-07-2005, 03:33

Could you direct me to any websites that deal with this issue?
smaller class sizes really dont make a difference i went to a (public) school where my 6th grade math class had 39 ppl in it and i learned shitloads more there than in my 7th grade (private) school where there were only 12

i put in the public and private things because some ppl think that all public schools are crap and are terrible and everything and all private schools are great and have great curiculums

i actually relearned the exact same stuff for 5-8 grades at 3 different schools because the 2 private schools with good reputations didnt teach any more than basic algebra, then i still somehow got in the accelerated math and science programs in high school

Oye Oye

06-07-2005, 03:42

smaller class sizes really dont make a difference i went to a (public) school where my 6th grade math class had 39 ppl in it and i learned shitloads more there than in my 7th grade (private) school where there were only 12

i put in the public and private things because some ppl think that all public schools are crap and are terrible and everything and all private schools are great and have great curiculums

i actually relearned the exact same stuff for 5-8 grades at 3 different schools because the 2 private schools with good reputations didnt teach any more than basic algebra, then i still somehow got in the accelerated math and science programs in high school

Perhaps you are a brilliant exception to the rule, but you haven't addressed the question.

Sarkasis

06-07-2005, 03:42

smaller class sizes really dont make a difference i went to a (public) school where my 6th grade math class had 39 ppl in it and i learned shitloads more there than in my 7th grade (private) school where there were only 12

It depends. If they segregate the classes (remove the slow learners and children who have affective problems), then you can make the class as big as you wish.
But in reality, we DON'T want to segregate. Our system tries to include a number of slow learners and problem children in each class. It's not good for them to pack them in a "special" class and let them rot in silence. They can show genuine progress when they are with other kids. Besides, special classes are awefully expensive and don't give good results; problem kids get worse in such a wasteland.
My mother used to work as a "special aide" for slow kids. She was helping the teacher by giving guidance to the small bunch of 3-4 kids who really need a little more help. But really, in the class is too large you just lose control.

So it really depends on what kind of society you want to build. If you want it to be "all inclusive", then you have to reduce the class size. And add a few helpers.

Whispering Legs

06-07-2005, 13:37

1. I have seen posts in this forum from Canadians and people from the U.S. who claim that schools are overcrowded. I think Sarkasis mentioned there were over 35 students to a class. You don't think proper allocation of funds would solve this problem?

2. Who has a better chance of succeeding in life in the U.S. a child who attends a private school, a child who is homeschooled, or a child who attends public school?

There are only 15 students per class on average in DC public schools. They get more money per student than any school district in the United States.

They still rank at the bottom of any measure you care to name, including violence and death at school (guns are completely illegal in DC).

Since this is an obvious example of extreme allocation of more funds, and it's obviously not working (I could use Baltimore, Maryland as another example compared to the rest of the state of Maryland), are you saying that money is the answer to everything?

Teachers in Fairfax County are big on the idea of parental involvement - there's a saying here that if you're parents don't care enough to be involved, neither will your child - and by and large that appears to be true. You can't blame the school system or the amount of money spent - you have to blame parents who don't care if their child does well in school or not.

Cabra West

06-07-2005, 13:42

There are only 15 students per class on average in DC public schools. They get more money per student than any school district in the United States.

They still rank at the bottom of any measure you care to name, including violence and death at school (guns are completely illegal in DC).

Since this is an obvious example of extreme allocation of more funds, and it's obviously not working (I could use Baltimore, Maryland as another example compared to the rest of the state of Maryland), are you saying that money is the answer to everything?

Teachers in Fairfax County are big on the idea of parental involvement - there's a saying here that if you're parents don't care enough to be involved, neither will your child - and by and large that appears to be true. You can't blame the school system or the amount of money spent - you have to blame parents who don't care if their child does well in school or not.

Well, how do you educate the parents, then?

Whispering Legs

06-07-2005, 13:58

Well, how do you educate the parents, then?

It's not a matter of "educating" parents. A parent can be pretty well uneducated, and still make a substantial impact on whether or not the child achieves anything in school.

Studying at home, instilling a sense of discipline and a work ethic, instilling a study habit, and being involved in the child's school life have more of an impact on educational achievement than the teacher's pay, the new school building, the low class size, or the fancy computers on every desk.

Fairfax County starts when the child first goes to kindergarten - parents have to be involved in the child's schoolwork (not that they're doing it, but there's so much of it, and some recordkeeping that goes back and forth between parent and teacher). If you fail to keep up, the parents get invited to meet with the teacher to find out why they're not involved in the child's studies.

This goes on for some years, to get the parents in the habit. And the teachers will all tell you that if you aren't involved, you have only yourself to blame for the outcome. They also say that's the reason that homeschooled children far outstrip any other teaching method ever invented - because the parents are directly and constantly involved.

A lot of parents push back on this - they assume that they paid their taxes, and the school exists to supplant their responsibility to raise their child. Nothing could be further from the truth - the school and its teachers are only a means of assisting parents in educating their own children.

Kisgard

06-07-2005, 14:16

You voted twice for a President who is spending billions of dollars in a vain attempt to fight two wars simultaneously and your wondering why your education system sucks?

P.S. that's not an attack on G.W. that's an attack on you.

Money is not the issue. We spend more than enough to educate... however in 1980 there were 5 teachers for every non teacher in the school system. Today there are 5 teachers for every 5 non teachers. Couple that with the Union standard for tenor instead of performace, you end up with poor overall performance.

Cut spending by hiring twice the teachers and getting ride of 60% of the non teachers. Further... get rid of the Liberal agenda of not wanting to hurt someone's feelings.. a failing grade is a failing grade.

The good news is they know how to put a condom on a bannana....Which has shown to be 100% effective, so far no teenage kids have gotten pregnant with a bannana.. however teen age pregnacies have still gone up.

When you listen to the Liberals in this country its no wonder why education is so poor. Why would a man like Howard Dean or Micheal Moore need an education to spew the garbage they spew?

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Toyota Chooses Canada over the Southern US