NationStates Jolt Archive

Which is more annoying: devout Christians or atheists who deny that Jesus Christ ever existed?

(Sorry, this isn't a pro-Christianity thread, and it is one with an agnostic bias. I apologize if the Christians who come here are offended in any way.)

To be fair, most atheists(as far as I can tell) do believe jesus existed, or at least one who doesn't fit the bible description. I thought it was pretty much proven, though, that a person named jesus did exist?(Not in a semantic way)

To be fair, most atheists(as far as I can tell) do believe jesus existed, or at least one who doesn't fit the bible description. I thought it was pretty much proven, though, that a person named jesus did exist?(Not in a semantic way)
Yes, it has been proven historically that Jesus Christ existed. Some (IMO, extremely frightening) atheists deny his existance anyway. To me, that's even more annoying than Christianity itself! :eek:

Both.

Genrerally speaking, people suck. :p

I know a few good and/or fun ones. SOme right here on the general forum. But the vast majority of people annoy me and should be beaten with trout. *nod*

Jesus mows my lawn.

Jesus was an anarchist and a communist (As someone cleverer than me wrote.) But he wasnt the son of God, IMO.

But devout Christians are more annoying.

If this thread has Atheist bias, howcome I can't vote that all mumbo-jumbo people are annoying?
Jehova's witnesses or Muslim pro-sharia people are equally annoying to me (as are a lot of others). I don't favour one invisible friend over another, and I don't think one religious busybody is any better than another...

...And.. Last time I cared enough about it to check, it seemed likely that Jesus was real. Not that it matters one way or the other. Jesus isn't proof of magic.

Personally, I find them both equally annoying.

I can't stand those holier-than-thou missionary Christians who will close their eyes to everything that doesn't fit their small-minded idea of the world.

And I just despise atheists who for the life of them can't keep their big mouths shut and respect the beliefs and religious feelings of other. Just because it can't be proven doesn't mean it's not a reality and important to somebody else.

I'm religious myself, Catholic to be precise, but above all, I believe in tolerance of others. And I have a problem with people who can't at least show respect and have to make themselves feel better by looking down on others...

Jesus was an anarchist and a communist (As someone cleverer than me wrote.) But he wasnt the son of God, IMO.

But devout Christians are more annoying.
I agree that he probably didn't have mystical powers of any sort, but to me denying that he ever existed even though there is evidence proving he did is idiotic. It requires the same blind faith as Christianity, except the overall result is no inner peace, no belief in anything good and righteous... it's terrible. Why would anyone want to live in that state of mind? If they want to follow blind faith, the least they could do is have that faith in something loving and caring... but no, they want to be miserable their whole lives. WTF? To me, that's just BEYOND annoying.

In the end everyone is ignorant. Sowe might aswell all sit down, hold hands, and embrace our shared stupidity.

If this thread has Atheist bias, howcome I can't vote that all mumbo-jumbo people are annoying?
Jehova's witnesses or Muslim pro-sharia people are equally annoying to me (as are a lot of others). I don't favour one invisible friend over another, and I don't think one religious busybody is any better than another...

...And.. Last time I cared enough about it to check, it seemed likely that Jesus was real. Not that it matters one way or the other. Jesus isn't proof of magic.
(1) I said it had an agnostic bias.
(2) There is more than one kind of atheist/agnostic. In this case, I take the view of an Christian agnostic.

Both.

Genrerally speaking, people suck. :p

I know a few good and/or fun ones. SOme right here on the general forum. But the vast majority of people annoy me and should be beaten with trout. *nod*
I concur.

There are some nice Christians but most of them are annoying. My friend is a Christian and she can be REALLY annoying about it. Last year she kept trying to convert me! I asked her if she wanted her Tarot Cards read and she freaked out saying how evil it is to know the future...give me a break. A very funny time was when I told her I was a Pagan, she said to me "But if your polytheistic how do you follow the 10 Commandments?" :confused: ...Christians cant understand why everyone else dosent belive what they belive...that annoys me...

People that annoy me more are the atheists/agnostics who feel they gotta shove their views in Christians' faces. Or basically, anybody who's intentionally obnoxious about political or relgious beliefs.

Yes, it has been proven historically that Jesus Christ existed. Some (IMO, extremely frightening) atheists deny his existance anyway. To me, that's even more annoying than Christianity itself! :eek:

This was historically proven when? Where? How?

Please show your work.

While Agnostics/Atheists tend to be more adamant, Christians tend to be more numerous.

This was historically proven when? Where? How?

Please show your work.
Look, I'm not in the mood to play the sourcing game, okay?

An Interview with Jesus

Interviewer: Ladies and Gentlemen, we're privileged to have with us a man known around the world as the Prince of Peace, Jesus Christ.
Jesus: That's me.

I: How are you, Jesus?
J: Fine, thanks, and let me say it's great to be back.
I: Why, after all this time, have you come back?
J: Mostly nostalgia.
I: Can you tell us a little about the first time you were here?
J: Well, there's not much to tell. I think everybody knows the story by now. I was born on Christmas. And actually, that always bothered me, because I only got one present. You know, if I was born a couple of months earlier I would've got two presents. But look, I'm not complaining. After all, it's only material goods.
I: There's a story that there were three wise men.
J: Well, there were three kings who showed up. I don't know how wise they were. They didn't look very wise. They said they followed a star. That don't sound wise to me.
I: Didn't they bring gifts?
J: Yes. Gold, frankincense, and I believe, myrrh, which I never did find out what that was. You don't happen to know what myrrh is, do you?
I: Well, I believe it's a reddish-brown, bitter gum resin.
J: Oh, great. Just what I need. What am I gonna do with a gum resin? I'd rather have the money, that way I could buy something I need. You know, something I wouldn't normally buy for myself.
I: What would that be?
J: Oh, I don't know. A bathing suit. I never had a bathing suit. Maybe a Devo hat. Possibly a bicycle. I really coulda used a bicycle. Do you realize all the walking I did? I must've crossed Canaan six, eight times. Up and down, north and south, walking and talking, doin' miracles, tellin' stories.
I: Tell us about the miracles. How many miracles did you perform?
J: Well, leaving out the loaves and the fishes, a total of 107 miracles.
I: Why not the loaves and the fishes?
J: Well, technically that one wasn't a miracle.
I: It wasn't?
J: No, it turns out a lot of people were putting them back. They were several days old. And besides, not all those miracles were pure miracles anyway.
I: What do you mean? If they weren't miracles, what were they?
J: Well, some of them were parlor tricks, optical illusions, mass hypnosis. Sometimes people were hallucinatin'. I even used acupressure. That's how I cured most of the blind people, acupressure.
I: So not all of the New Testament is true.
J: Naaah. Some of the gospel stuff never happened at all. It was just made up. Luke and Mark used a lot of drugs. Luke was a physician, and he had access to drugs. Matthew and John were okay, but Luke and Mark would write anything.
I: What about raising Lazarus from the dead?
J: First of all, he wasn't dead, he was hungover. I've told people that.
I: But in the Bible you said he was dead.
J: No! I said he looked dead. I said, "Jeez, Peter, this guy looks dead!" You see, Lazarus was a very heavy sleeper, plus that day before we had been to a wedding feast, and he had put away a lot of wine.
I: Ahhh! Was that the wedding feast at Cana, where you changed the water into wine?
J: Not that I know of. One time I turned apple juice into milk, but I don't recall the water and wine.
I: All right, speaking of water, let me ask you about another miracle. What about walking on water? Did that really happen?
J: Oh yeah, that was one that really happened. You see, the problem was, I could do it, and the other guys couldn't. They were jealous. Peter got so mad at me he had these special shoes made, special big shoes, that if you started out walkin' real fast you could stay on top of the water for a while. Then, of course, after a few yard, badda-boom, down he goes right into the water. He sinks like a rock. That's why I call him Peter. Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I shall build my church.
I: Well, that brings up the Apostles. What can you tell us about the Apostles?
J: They smelled like bait, but they were a good bunch of guys. Thirteen of them we had.
I: Thirteen? The Bible says there were only twelve.
J: Well, that was according to Luke. I told you about Luke. Actually, we had thirteen. We had Peter, James, Andrew, Phillip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James, that's a different James, Thaddeus. How many is that?
I: That's ten.
J: Simon, Judas, and Red.
I: Red?
J: Yeah, Red the Apostle.
I: Red the Apostle doesn't appear in the Bible.
J: Nah, Red kept pretty much to himself. He never came to any of the weddings. He was a little strange; he thought the Red Sea was named after him.
I: And what about Judas?
J: Don't get me started on Judas. A completely unpleasant person, okay?
I: Well, what about the other Apostles, say for instance, Thomas, was he really a doubter?
J: Believe me, this guy Thomas, you couldn't tell him nothin'. He was always asking me for ID. Soon as I would see him, he would go, "You got any ID?" To this day he doesn't believe I'm God.
I: And are you God?
J: Well, partly. I'm a member of the Trinity.
I: Yes. In fact, you're writing a book about the Trinity.
J: That's right, it's called 'Three's a Crowd'.
I: As I understand it, it's nothing more than a thinly veiled attack on the Holy Ghost.
J: Listen, it's not an attack, okay? It happens I don't get along with the Holy Ghost. So I leave him alone. That's it. What he does is his business.
I: What's the reason?
J: Well, first of all, he's a wise guy. Every time he shows up, he appears as somethin' different. One day he's a dove, another day he's a tongue of fire. Always foolin' around. I don't bother with the guy, I don't wanna know about him, I don't wanna see him, I don't wanna talk to him.
I: Well, let me change the subject. Is there really a place called hell?
J: Oh yeah, there's a hell, all right. There's also a heck. It's not as severe as hell, but we've got a heck and a hell.
I: What about purgatory?
J: No, I don't know about no purgatory. We got heaven, hell, heck, and limbo.
I: What is limbo like?
J: I don't know. No one is allowed in. If anyone was in there it wouldn't be limbo, it would just be another place.
I: Getting back to your previous visit, what can you tell us about the Last Supper?
J: Well, first of all, if I'da known I was gonna be crucified, I woulda had a bigger meal. You never want to be crucified on an empty stomach. As it was, I had a little salad and some veal.
I: The crucifixion must have been terrible.
J: Oh yeah, it was awful. Unless you went through it yourself, you could never know how painful it was. And tiring. It was very, very tiring. But I think more than anything else, it was embarrassing. You know, in front of all those people, to be crucified like that. But, I guess it redeemed a lot of people. I hope so. It would be a shame to do it for no reason.
I: Were you scared?
J: Oh yeah. I was afraid it was gonna rain; I thought for sure I would get hit by lightning. One good thing, though, while I was up there I had a really good view; I could actually see my house. There's always a bright side.
I: And then three days later you rose from the dead.
J: How's that?
I: On Easter Sunday. You rose from the dead, didn't you?
J: Not that I know of. I think I would remember something like that. I do remember sleeping a long time after the crucifixion. Like I said, it was very tiring. I think what mighta happened was I passed out, and they thought I was dead. We didn't have such good medical people in those days. It was mostly volunteers.
I: And, according to the Bible, forty days later you ascended into heaven.
J: Pulleys! Ropes, pulleys, and a harness. I think it was Simon came up with a great harness thing that went under my toga. You couldn't see it at all. Since that day, I been in Heaven, and, all in all, I would have to say that while I was down here I had a really good time. Except for the suffering.
I: And what do you think of Christianity today?
J: Well, I'm a little embarrassed by it. I wish they would take my name off it. If I had the whole thing to do over, I would probably start one of those Eastern religions like Buddha. Buddha was smart. That's how come he's laughing.
I: You wouldn't want to be a Christian?
J: No, I wouldn't want to be a member of any group whose symbol is a man nailed onto some wood. Especially if it's me. Buddha's laughing, meanwhile I'm on the cross.
I: I have a few more questions, do you mind?
J: Hey, be my guest, how often do I get here?
I: Are there really angels?
J: Well, not as many as we used to have. Years ago we had millions of them. Today you can't get the young people to join. It got too dangerous with all the radar and heat-seeking missiles.
I: What about guardian angels? Are there such things?
J: Yes, we still have guardian angels, but now, with the population explosion, it's one angel for every six people. Years ago everybody had his own angel.
I: Do you really answer prayers?
J: No. First of all, what with the sun spots and radio interference, a lot of them don't even get through. And between you and me, we just don't have the staff to handle the workload anymore. In the old days we took pride in answering every single prayer, but like I said, there were less people. And in those days people prayed for something simple, to light a fire, to catch a yak, something like that. But today you got people praying for hockey teams, for longer fingernails, to lose weight. We just can't keep up.
I: Well, I think we're about out of time. I certainly want to thank you for visiting with us.
J: Hey, no sweat.
I: Do you have any words of advice?
J: You mean like how to remove chewing gum from a suede garment? Something like that?
I: No, I mean spiritual advice.
J: Well, I don't know how spiritual it is, but I'd say one thing is don't give your money to the church. They should be giving their money to you.
I: Well, thank you, Jesus, and good night.
J: Well, good night, thanks for having me on here today. And by the way, in case anyone is interested, bell-bottoms will be coming back in the year 2015. Ciao.

-Written by George Carlin.

:D

Look, I'm not in the mood to play the sourcing game, okay?

Fine.

I'm not in the mood to be called ignorant by someone that won't explain, okay?

On the actual existence of a real human called Jesus Christ, I don't know. I doubt you do either.

Fine.

I'm not in the mood to be called ignorant by someone that won't explain, okay?

On the actual existence of a real human called Jesus Christ, I don't know. I doubt you do either.

I'm pretty sure his real last name wasn't Christ.

"Ignorant" does not equal "devout."

Fine.

I'm not in the mood to be called ignorant by someone that won't explain, okay?

On the actual existence of a real human called Jesus Christ, I don't know. I doubt you do either.
Look, I'm not saying that he definitely existed, but at this point, chances are he did. Most lies, fables, etc. are based at least in part, on truth. I believe that Jesus probably existed, but I don't believe he had any mystical nature about him. He may have believed he did, and other people may have believed he did, but that's not the point. I'm not even trying to say I have definite answers for anything. Sorry if I offended you in some way.

Look, I'm not saying that he definitely existed, but at this point, chances are he did. Most lies, fables, etc. are based at least in part, on truth. I believe that Jesus probably existed, but I don't believe he had any mystical nature about him. He may have believed he did, and other people may have believed he did, but that's not the point. I'm not even trying to say I have definite answers for anything. Sorry if I offended you in some way.

Well, then the choice may be between annoying athiests (which I have probably joined at least in your book by now ;) ) and annying christians, but not between ignorant athiests or ignorant christians.

The title of your thread implies that one or the other is ignorant. And your argument was that it was athiests.

"Ignorant" does not equal "devout."
In regards to Christianity, IMO, it does. I'm not asking for anyone to agree with me.

I'm pretty sure his real last name wasn't Christ.

Nor was his name Jesus, actually - that's the Greek translation (just like Christ is Greek for "savior"). Both were used by Paul, who probably has more to do with how Christianity turned out than the 1st century religious figure from Nazareth named Yeshua...


As for the poll, I voted other - I don't think very devout Christians OR adamant Atheists are annoying. I think STUPID PEOPLE of ALL faiths and belief systems are annoying. Someone who's actually well-read and can defend their position - no matter what that position is - are deserving of respect.

I'm also coming at things from an Agnostic perspective - I tend to believe that if there IS a higher power, then we as humans aren't really equipped to understand it, so the odds of any specific religion being THE religion that "got it right" is fairly slim. On the other hand, unlike Atheists, I'm not outright swearing that there IS no god of any kind.

Well, then the choice may be between annoying athiests (which I have probably joined at least in your book by now ;) ) and annying christians, but not between ignorant athiests or ignorant christians.

The title of your thread implies that one or the other is ignorant. And your argument was that it was athiests.
My arguement was nonexistant. My opinion was that it was a specific group of atheists.

Nor was his name Jesus, actually - that's the Greek translation (just like Christ is Greek for "savior"). Both were used by Paul, who probably has more to do with how Christianity turned out than the 1st century religious figure from Nazareth named Yeshua...


Jesus is actually the Latin form of Yeshua or Yoshua, not Greek.
Christos is Greek, that's right, but it translates as "the annointed one", nothing more. I've seen a number of people so far translating Christ as either saviour or Messiah, just where does that come from?
I never heard anybody in Germany making that mistake?

Okay, lets get this straight, theres no way anyone can say who is more or less ignorant. Sure there are old documents from kingdoms long ago in the middle east specificall aknoweldging the existance on Jesus, but who is to say they weren't afarse? I am christian, and call me blind, but I do not need any "proof" that Jesus, God, and the Holy Ghost exist. What I experience every day is proof enough for me. :)

The second thing I want to say that goes out to EVERYONE is do not generalize about people of any faith. Muslims aren't crazies that want to kill people for Allah. Most of them are just normal people that happen to have alot of tradition. Not all christans are crazies who shout at people and say,"If you don't beleive in Jesus, you are going to hell! Jews are followers of Satan!". However, there are alot who bear the name of a christian but do not bear the morality of a true follower of Jesus Christ. If everyone who was a christian acted more like Jesus (and I mean in manner, not performing miracles), alot fewer people would hate us. The problem does not lie with christianity, it lies with many of the people who SAY they are following it. You can't put any kind of religious stereotype on anyone, because there are always extremists.

Why can't we all just get along? :(

Why can't we all just get along? :(

Because human beings only grow with conflict. Not necessarily violent, but unless somebody kept contradicting, we would never broaden our horizon, would we? ;)

Christos is Greek, that's right, but it translates as "the annointed one", nothing more. I've seen a number of people so far translating Christ as either saviour or Messiah, just where does that come from?
Because Messiah also means "Anointed One".

I take issue with -Everyknowledge-'s claim that anyone who doesn't think that Yeshua existed is ignorant. Someone who claimed to be the Messiah and was crucified would leave contemporaneous accounts of his existence. There are records of people claiming to be the Messiah, but Yeshua ben Yosef is never mentioned. The first time he was mentioned was in the Gospels, the earliest of which was written in about 60 C.E. There is no reason to think that a man named Yeshua ben Yosef, who claimed to be the Messiah, and was crucified for stirring up resentment towards the Romans, ever existed.

Interestingly, there was a man named Yeshua who claimed to be the Messiah and was crucified. His name was Yeshua ben Pantera. (Pantera was a Roman soldier.) He is likely the historical basis for Yeshua ben Yosef. The identity of his father was likely changed to fit the prophecies of the Messiah's ancestry.

I say atheists in denial of christ. I am certainly an atheist - I also happen in all honesty (so no flaming replies) that christianity and all other religion is indoctrinating trash that has no base in truth and is used to serve the needs of those in power (bit marxist, me). However Im also a history nerd, so I hate those who deny what is proved true more. At least religion is passed down in family and has some reason I guess. Ignorance for the sake of being anti-religion however does not.

Interestingly, there was a man named Yeshua who claimed to be the Messiah and was crucified. His name was Yeshua ben Pantera. (Pantera was a Roman soldier.) He is likely the historical basis for Yeshua ben Yosef. The identity of his father was likely changed to fit the prophecies of the Messiah's ancestry.
Haha! Is this for real? Oh God religion is fun!
I can almost imagine the look on NR's face if she reads this :D

Anyway, regardless of this Jesus figure's being or being a joke, he isn't terribly important for anyone but Christians. The point is he's not proof of anything. Even his lack of existence (if he didn't) doesn't rule out the Christian God. It just means the Christians didn't get it 100% right.

But then, there really is no reason to suspect anything divine...

Sorry I got the bit about Agnosticism being favored wrong.

Haha! Is this for real? Oh God religion is fun!
I can almost imagine the look on NR's face if she reads this :D


I've heard about that before in Religious Education. And there's a movie that mentiones it, called "Jesus of Montreal". That one's really nice food for thought.

And NR is just going to quote the bible up and down proving that Jesus existed and that Mary was a virgin and if not how chould everybody get so bloody drunk at that wedding in Kanaa?
:D