NationStates Jolt Archive

50,000 people die in Africa everyday.

We have the ability to stop it.

We have drugs to cure diseases.

We can dig wells to produce clean water.

We can save lives.

Make your wish to help them known.

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Instead of just handing money over to corrupt governments can't we just send people to build wells, factories, roads, and schools? They could hire local people to do the labor, pay them a living wage, and when the jobs are done the nation is left with a better infrastructure for agriculture and business.

50,000 people die in Africa everyday.

We have the ability to stop it.

We have drugs to cure diseases.

We can dig wells to produce clean water.

We can save lives.

Make your wish to help them known.

Sign this list:
http://www.live8live.com/list/

Agreed.

Capitalist run the world and they'll ask " where's the profit for me?"
Why should they supply cheap drugs?
Why should they remove trade barriers?
We need more boycotts of un-helpful multi-nationals to convince them that they have to act morally but it's tough to boycott manufacturers of anti-AIDS drugs or oil producers.

Agreed.

Capitalist run the world and they'll ask " where's the profit for me?"
Why should they supply cheap drugs?
Why should they remove trade barriers?
We need more boycotts of un-helpful multi-nationals to convince them that they have to act morally but it's tough to boycott manufacturers of anti-AIDS drugs or oil producers.
It's tough to boycott almost any company. Finding an ethically sound alternative company to provide the goods you need is damn near impossible.

Instead of just handing money over to corrupt governments can't we just send people to build wells, factories, roads, and schools? They could hire local people to do the labor, pay them a living wage, and when the jobs are done the nation is left with a better infrastructure for agriculture and business.


Thats a very good idea DC. It would be a much better solution than letting every thief of a government official from draining off vital resources.

50,000 people die in Africa everyday.

We have the ability to stop it.

We have drugs to cure diseases.

We can dig wells to produce clean water.

We can save lives.

Make your wish to help them known.

Sign this list:
http://www.live8live.com/list/

You know alot of people around the world could care less about how many people die each day in Africa. They figure if they cannot see it on TV it isn't their problem.
:(

Thats a very good idea DC. It would be a much better solution than letting every thief of a government official from draining off vital resources.
Thanks. Only problem is that you'll have to bribe the government officials to get it done.

You know alot of people around the world could care less about how many people die each day in Africa. They figure if they cannot see it on TV it isn't their problem.
:(
It's kind of hard to wrap your mind around that kind of widespread misery if you can't see it. Even if people do think about it they feel like they can't really do anything to help.

It's kind of hard to wrap your mind around that kind of widespread misery if you can't see it. Even if people do think about it they feel like they can't really do anything to help.

I know what you mean...I've heard the saying "think globally, act locally" but it just feels overwhelming and futile no matter how good the cause may be...where do you start?? :confused:

Right now Africa does not need wells, they NEED stable governments. Its rather hard for a well to benifit the local village if Mr. Auflawagger, the warlord from over the ridge, has a bunch of guys in technicals around the thing and shoots anybody that goes near it, or poisons it, or something.
Likewise with the drugs and such.
We need to stabilize the area before we start sending in a bunch of stuff, half of which will be sold and used to by AK-47's.
*dons asbestos suit*

Corrupt governments, disease and ignorance are by-products of poverty, not the other way round.

Africa is not a continent of corrupt nations. Many are emerging as democracies. However, our hypocritical governments, transational corporations and international NGO's are serving their wallets and not the world's poor, and underminding that change.

It's kind of hard to wrap your mind around that kind of widespread misery if you can't see it. Even if people do think about it they feel like they can't really do anything to help.


The only time you really hear about it on the news is when President Bush said he was going to increase the funding for aids and malaria. Other than that it's not an issue, but the Michael Jackson crap still is. :rolleyes:

Right now Africa does not need wells, they NEED stable governments. Its rather hard for a well to benifit the local village if Mr. Auflawagger, the warlord from over the ridge, has a bunch of guys in technicals around the thing and shoots anybody that goes near it, or poisons it, or something.
Likewise with the drugs and such.
We need to stabilize the area before we start sending in a bunch of stuff, half of which will be sold and used to by AK-47's.
*dons asbestos suit*
That's true too. Look what happened when the UN tried to feed Somalia. Habr Gidr fighters hijacked food shipments and gave them to their own clan or sold them for profit.

So how do we get around this problem?

Right now Africa does not need wells, they NEED stable governments. Its rather hard for a well to benifit the local village if Mr. Auflawagger, the warlord from over the ridge, has a bunch of guys in technicals around the thing and shoots anybody that goes near it, or poisons it, or something.
Likewise with the drugs and such.
We need to stabilize the area before we start sending in a bunch of stuff, half of which will be sold and used to by AK-47's.
*dons asbestos suit*


You are safe from any flaming on my part.

How do you stabilize and area though? If you send in UN peacekeepers *Keep laughter to a minimum* they are not going to really do anything. Well besides rape the women and children. :D

Corrupt governments, disease and ignorance are by-products of poverty, not the other way round.

Africa is not a continent of corrupt nations. Many are emerging as democracies. However, our hypocritical governments, transational corporations and international NGO's are serving their wallets and not the world's poor, and underminding that change.
One of the problems in Africa now, if I understand it correctly, is that much of the monetary aid that is sent to certain countries is snapped up by local leaders and used to fuel their feuds. It is quite likely that poverty influenced there being corrupt governments, but throwing money at them won't fix it, because said governments will simply take it for their own purposes.

Instead of just handing money over to corrupt governments can't we just send people to build wells, factories, roads, and schools? They could hire local people to do the labor, pay them a living wage, and when the jobs are done the nation is left with a better infrastructure for agriculture and business.

So, what, pay Halliburton and their ilk to do it?

So, what, pay Halliburton and their ilk to do it?
Sort of. Pay companies with the technical expertise, send them to Africa, let them hire locals for labor and teach the locals how to build those things for themselves. What's so bad about that?

Sort of. Pay companies with the technical expertise, send them to Africa, let them hire locals for labor and teach the locals how to build those things for themselves. What's so bad about that?

The profit getting ploughed back into the pockets of the fatcats in the western world.

Who cares about them? It's natural selection, they're too stupid to stay alive, they deserve to die.

Who cares about them? It's natural selection, they're too stupid to stay alive, they deserve to die.
I hope you weren't being serious.

The profit getting ploughed back into the pockets of the fatcats in the western world.
Corporations aren't trustworthy. Their only loyalty is to the stock value. Still, they have their uses. A major corporation has expertise, equipment, and an organizational framework that allows it to complete major projects very efficiently. All that is required is oversight and proper regulation on the part of the government. I'm not against Haliburton stock holders getting rich just so long as their corporation plays by the rules.

Who cares about them? It's natural selection, they're too stupid to stay alive, they deserve to die.
Yeah, stupid Africans decided to be born into such a shithole they shouldn't expect those of us smart enough to be born in first world countries to bail them out.

Who cares about them? It's natural selection, they're too stupid to stay alive, they deserve to die.
Ah, so it's all their gene's fault they were born in a country where it is impossible to escape poverty, and they are liable to die due to assorted disease, if not by being attacked by some lunatic who has decided he'd like to kill them?
Hmm, sounds fishy to me.

Corporations aren't trustworthy. Their only loyalty is to the stock value. Still, they have their uses. A major corporation has expertise, equipment, and an organizational framework that allows it to complete major projects very efficiently. All that is required is oversight and proper regulation on the part of the government. I'm not against Haliburton stock holders getting rich just so long as their corporation plays by the rules.

Okay lets break it down:

- In the western world the moderately well off are taxed.
- This money is used to alleviate the poverty of those in Africa.
- Some of it also goes towards making the rich of the western world richer.

I have no problem with the first two, but the third sticks in my craw: it is not as if the shareholders are doing anything to actually create the wealth.

Who cares about them? It's natural selection, they're too stupid to stay alive, they deserve to die.

Question: does the principle of natural selection also apply to trolls?

That's true too. Look what happened when the UN tried to feed Somalia. Habr Gidr fighters hijacked food shipments and gave them to their own clan or sold them for profit.

So how do we get around this problem?
I realize that nobody likes it, but sadly it seems like the only practical solution for now would be simply taking over. Clearly we arent going to stop anybody through diplomacy, because theyre either too insane, too greedy, or too desperate.
The official governments are either the same as the warlords, or too weak to do anything. There are a few exceptions (South Africa and Egyt...sort of, both have some pretty bad problems though), but unless there is a major climate change in the next few years, Africa is going to go bye-bye without some kind of guidance.
Once you get a strong country watching over things, their military can come in and knock out the local warlords fairly quickly. From what Ive seen African 'troops' dont fare too well in open combat against trained troops. Dont bring up Somalia because THAT was a collection of circumstances which turned out quite well, considering what might have happened.
Clearly the current methods dont work, they havent worked for about thrity years, except in a few special cases, and then not for long.
The problem with this approach is, as has been mentioned, capitolism. Most likely the countries will end up as sweatshops making McDonalds prizes.
Of course, you COULD go in and kill everybody, but that would be worse than the imperialism option. :rolleyes:

Yeah, stupid Africans decided to be born into such a shithole they shouldn't expect those of us smart enough to be born in first world countries to bail them out.
He has a point, although not on purpose.
If your average African wife didnt have ten kids at a time, perhaps they would be better off.
Apparently the rational is that eight of the kids will die anyway. But it seems like if you had two kids, both of them would survive AND get more food, thus growing up healthier and not adding ten corpses to the local graveyard.

Okay lets break it down:

- In the western world the moderately well off are taxed.
- This money is used to alleviate the poverty of those in Africa.
- Some of it also goes towards making the rich of the western world richer.

I have no problem with the first two, but the third sticks in my craw: it is not as if the shareholders are doing anything to actually create the wealth.
They do a little. First of all, when you buy shares of a company the money you spend goes into the company's account. That money is used to fund research and development, build new facilities, etc. Also share holders are allowed to vote for who will be on the board of directors. The board decides the company's strategy for the future.

The profit getting ploughed back into the pockets of the fatcats in the western world.
The profits are going to someone. The people who stated things about the corrupt governments are right. Haven't you guys heard of Somalia? If the people who have the power over there don't like the wells being built and the food being distributed, they'll stop it.

Instead of just handing money over to corrupt governments can't we just send people to build wells, factories, roads, and schools? They could hire local people to do the labor, pay them a living wage, and when the jobs are done the nation is left with a better infrastructure for agriculture and business.
I completely agree. I think that Keynesian policies like this can work not only nationally, but internationally also. The corrupt governments don't even deserve to control these things.

Fortunately many western nations are already doing this. For example, my country's (Ireland) state-owned electricity company builds electrical infrastructure in Zambia and other African countries.

I know what you mean...I've heard the saying "think globally, act locally" but it just feels overwhelming and futile no matter how good the cause may be...where do you start?? :confused:
Think globally, and act globally, I say.

The profit getting ploughed back into the pockets of the fatcats in the western world.
It's coming from the taxpayers of the western world in the first place. As long as the infrastructure gets built, I can live with fatcats making a profit. The government could always tax any profits from these projects.

Okay lets break it down:

- In the western world the moderately well off are taxed.
- This money is used to alleviate the poverty of those in Africa.
- Some of it also goes towards making the rich of the western world richer.

I have no problem with the first two, but the third sticks in my craw: it is not as if the shareholders are doing anything to actually create the wealth.
Yeah I agree. But that's why we have corporate tax.

Okay lets break it down:

- In the western world the moderately well off are taxed.
- This money is used to alleviate the poverty of those in Africa.
- Some of it also goes towards making the rich of the western world richer.

I have no problem with the first two, but the third sticks in my craw: it is not as if the shareholders are doing anything to actually create the wealth.
How else would you do it? Send the IRC and tell them good luck? It has to be something huge with people willing to die to make the world better.

One of the problems in Africa now, if I understand it correctly, is that much of the monetary aid that is sent to certain countries is snapped up by local leaders and used to fuel their feuds. It is quite likely that poverty influenced there being corrupt governments, but throwing money at them won't fix it, because said governments will simply take it for their own purposes.

It is our (as in western) companies/corporations that cause that corruption. When these countries find natural resources, the TNCs simply bribe to get contracts. The leaders cannot refuse since their country is too poor to exist without the support of the TNCs host country, which cuts funding to nations that won't have their companies.

As I said, the rich governments are total hypocrites.

How else would you do it?

Non-profit organisations. Capitalism is not the solution, it is part of the problem.

It is our (as in western) companies/corporations that cause that corruption. When these countries find natural resources, the TNCs simply bribe to get contracts. The leaders cannot refuse since their country is too poor to exist without the support of the TNCs host country, which cuts funding to nations that won't have their companies.

As I said, the rich governments are total hypocrites.
Explain to me how anyone else besides the huge governments can do/are doing anything about it.

Non-profit organisations. Capitalism is not the solution, it is part of the problem.
Capitalism is a tool. If controlled properly it builds things. If used recklessly it destroys. Nobody has yet found a better way to provide goods and services efficiently. No communist country produces as many good as the capitalist ones. No communist country produces good of the same quality as a capitalist country. China recognized this and it's economic boom can be directly attributed to allowing controlled capitalism to exist within it's borders.

They breed like bunnies, it's not like there's ever going to be a shortage of them.

50,000 people die in Africa everyday.

We have the ability to stop it.

We have drugs to cure diseases.

We can dig wells to produce clean water.

We can save lives.

Make your wish to help them known.

Sign this list:
http://www.live8live.com/list/

Why don't these rockstar motherfuckers pay for it themselves?

They have the millions of dollars, we don't.

They breed like bunnies, it's not like there's ever going to be a shortage of them.
Does the fact that more will live after them justify the suffering of those living now?

On top of that, if the AIDS problem keeps growing, there will be a rather large shortage of them.

If you're a subsistance farmer without access to tractors and other mechanical tools having lots of kids makes sense. A family of four can only cultivate so much land. If one gets sick or dies then they all face starvation. A family of 6 or 8 can cultivate more land and take up the sick or dead member's slack.

Explain to me how anyone else besides the huge governments can do/are doing anything about it.

The huge governments are causing the problem, not solving them. We force poorer countries to sell their schools, hospitals and services to TNCs in order to make them suitable to recieve funding.

For every person recieving a bribe, there is someone giving it. And it's not the poor countries giving the bribes.

Yes, corrupt governments... but there are how many people supporting this? And if G-8 approves, then I don't think any government, or private clan has any chance at stealing goods, supplies, or money.

Africa is paying the penalty for incuring large debts that were spent on a social programs and not infrastructure. They were the anti-thesis of Asian development, and now people demand that I bail them out?
I don't reward stupid governments.

50,000 people die in Africa everyday.

We have the ability to stop it.

We have drugs to cure diseases.

We can dig wells to produce clean water.

We can save lives.

Make your wish to help them known.

Sign this list:
http://www.live8live.com/list/
Live 8 just "raises awareness". Screw that.

Africa is paying the penalty for incuring large debts that were spent on a social programs and not infrastructure. They were the anti-thesis of Asian development, and now people demand that I bail them out?
I don't reward stupid governments.

Neither do any of us. But do you support helpless people is the question.

Africa is paying the penalty for incuring large debts that were spent on a social programs and not infrastructure. They were the anti-thesis of Asian development, and now people demand that I bail them out?
I don't reward stupid governments.
ouch. for one thing you blame them for spending money on 'social' programs instead of infrastructure, when in fact, I believe it is quite difficult for a government to justify spending on infrastructure when people are dying from hunger and disease. Besides, I'm pretty sure the western countries didn't just give them the money and let them decide what to do with it.

Corrupt governments, disease and ignorance are by-products of poverty, not the other way round.

Poverty is the result of corrupt governments, not vice versa. Most African countries were far better off under colonialism than they are now. Colonialism wasn't all rosy, of course; there were people like Leopold II, and most people living in colonies had few liberties. But under colonialism, there was usually law and order, stability, harmony, and gradually rising standards of living. Now, Africa is nothing but famine, crime, corruption, chaos, and violence. Not to mention the fact that, in the few African countries that aren't dictatorships, people keep electing kleptocrats, nepotists, and morons.

It is quite likely that poverty influenced there being corrupt governments, but throwing money at them won't fix it, because said governments will simply take it for their own purposes.

EXACTLY!

Poverty is the result of corrupt governments, not vice versa. Most African countries were far better off under colonialism than they are now.
Most African countries were far better off before colonialism.

Non-profit organisations. Capitalism is not the solution, it is part of the problem.

Socialism is the problem. Most of the countries in Africa are so poor because of socialism. Compare, for example, capitalist Rhodesia to socialist Zimbabwe.

Most African countries were far better off before colonialism.

Maybe, maybe not. But since colonialism ended, things have taken a turn for the worse. What the Europeans should have done was pursue a meritocratic approach, and gradually give more responsibility to the people when they were ready to accept it, and gradually pave the way toward eventual independence.

In places where corrupt officals are known to be, they divert the fund unto other organizations, in any case, I hope bush steps up to the plate 8 billion dollars, from the Us is all it takes.

Instead of just handing money over to corrupt governments can't we just send people to build wells, factories, roads, and schools? They could hire local people to do the labor, pay them a living wage, and when the jobs are done the nation is left with a better infrastructure for agriculture and business.

Sounds sensible to me.

Maybe, maybe not. But since colonialism ended, things have taken a turn for the worse. What the Europeans should have done was pursue a meritocratic approach, and gradually give more responsibility to the people when they were ready to accept it, and gradually pave the way toward eventual independence.
Yeah, colonialisum screwed with the african nations, imperial powers grouped together enemys and when the Imperial Powers left, they did not set up any kind of government, so chaos insued so civil wars and genocide were the norm, and infact are still happening across africa.

Most African countries were far better off before colonialism.
Most african Countries didn't exist before Colonialism. the nations of the present-day were carved out by Europeans, prior to Colonialism, only a small number of places (Egypt, the north-coastal city states in what is now Libya and Ethiopia, and Tunisia) had law that extended beyond the boundaries of a single city.
The bulk of African borders were arbitrarily drawn up by the Colonial Powers that conquered those regions. It's like some areas of the Middle-East.

In places where corrupt officals are known to be, they divert the fund unto other organizations, in any case, I hope bush steps up to the plate 8 billion dollars, from the Us is all it takes.
...until it takes more. Africa is a black-hole where Aid money is concerned. It's like taking in a Junkie who isn't even trying to kick. Every dime spent to 'help' said junkie is money thrown down a hole. The only way Africa can improve itself is if the Africans decide to do it. The pattern over the last forty years is that they will continue to NOT do it so long as we keep sending them money and food.

Enabling behaviour hurts both the Enabler, and the Junkie. Bush should NOT spend the money there without being very, very, selective about who-gets-what, and being damned stingy about how much anyone gets at all.

Canada City']Why don't these rockstar motherfuckers pay for it themselves?

They have the millions of dollars, we don't.
Always the response by the angry conservative. Most of these rocks stars make large donations to charities working in Africa, and provide them with publicity. Besides, a lot more than a few million dollars are required for this. This is huge.

Socialism is the problem. Most of the countries in Africa are so poor because of socialism. Compare, for example, capitalist Rhodesia to socialist Zimbabwe.
Calling Zimbabwe socialist is a stretch. It's a nepotist, party-loyalist virtual dictatorship. The government only gives out seized land to Mugabe's buddies, not the people, and food distribution is actually witheld from people who voted against Mugabe.

Calling Zimbabwe socialist is a stretch. It's a nepotist, party-loyalist virtual dictatorship. The government only gives out seized land to Mugabe's buddies, not the people, and food distribution is actually witheld from people who voted against Mugabe.
Okay, so Mugabe's unrefined. Unrefined Socialist. Not in theory, of course, but in practice.

We do send aid

We do send people to help

We do research cures for AIDS.

The problem is, what aid we send over there gets taken by corrupt governments, people we send over there get shot due to civil strife, and the cure for AIDS is hard to find. Its not about the money. Hell, we would give as much money as possible, but its so hard to get it to be put to use.