NationStates Jolt Archive

Liberals? Conservatives? Christians? Atheists? Jews/Israelis? Palestinians? Muslims? Harry Potter Fans? Who?

Let me be specific here--when I say a victim complex, I'm talking about a group that uses rhetoric that makes it sound like they're the most put-upon, persecuted group to ever tread the earth. I'm talking about people who act as though they can't even express themselves in public, lest they be shouted down from the rooftops, despite all evidence to the contrary that anything remotely like that happens?

The victim complex is common to many groups--most if not all of the groups I listed above, and then some--but in your esteemed opinion, who is the most ludicrous of the groups who dares play the victim card?

I'm hoping for some lively, but civil discussion here.

Blacks. I'm not racist or anything, but it's damn hard when they're saying that they are being oppressed every damn day.

blacks. no im not racist, but... well, i have to specify that i am not racist when saying the word "black."

blacks. no im not racist, but... well, i have to specify that i am not racist when saying the word "black."
Call a black girl a "black girl."

Wow, what a response did I get to that.

Blacks. I'm not racist or anything, but it's damn hard when they're saying that they are being oppressed every damn day.

"did you hear with this filthy, (racist slang) ass (slang) (slang) (extra cussword... just for fun) said to me? he said, excuse you, but the 'you' was obviously emphasised to be racist."

thats my experience, at least, it may be different in other parts of the world.

edit:
its just occured to me... i may be abit more open minded then most. i probably shouldnt fling racist terms left and right, dispite my being as white as they come (very pale).

I'd say atheists with Luciferian goths/vampires being a close second.

I can't see how anyone could make christians have a VICTIM complex. We've been fed to lions, have always been and still are being persecuted in certain parts of the world, but do we ever bitch? Hell no, we bust a cap in those motherfuckers and end up taking over in the end anyway.

Jews and blacks, in that order

I was gonna say black people then I saw Christians and teh obvious train decided to stop and let me on. They have the greatest damn victim complex I have ever seen. They have jsut shy of a strangle hold on this nation and they (the zealots) CONSTANTLY bitch about how they are being held down by atheists or atheists are trying to take over the nation by the sole fact they oppose letting Christians do whatever they want

"did you hear with this filthy, (racist slang) ass (slang) (slang) (extra cussword... just for fun) said to me? he said, excuse you, but the 'you' was obviously emphasised to be racist."

thats my experience, at least, it may be different in other parts of the world.

edit:
its just occured to me... i may be abit more open minded then most. i probably shouldnt fling racist terms left and right, dispite my being as white as they come (very pale).
Your lucky I nearly quoted the words, then I decided not to because I had nothing good to respond with.

Now I do. :D

I voted Conservatives, because every single time even the smallest page 6 story is printed, or given part of a segment on TV news, that contradicts any part of their narrow world view, it suddenly becomes a "liberal media conspiracy."

I voted atheists, but I assumed you meant biggest victim complex that was valid. I should have put christians, or blacks.

Your lucky I nearly quoted the words, then I decided not to because I had nothing good to respond with.

Now I do. :D

haha, lucky it hit me: "hmm... perhaps thats not the most intelligent thing ever."

just another note, im not racist. i love crackers.

Ihatevacations']I was gonna say black people then I saw Christians and teh obvious train decided to stop and let me on. They have the greatest damn victim complex I have ever seen. They have jsut shy of a strangle hold on this nation and they (the zealots) CONSTANTLY bitch about how they are being held down by atheists or atheists are trying to take over the nation by the sole fact they oppose letting Christians do whatever they want
You could make an equally valid argument about the Republicans right now, considering they control all three branches of the government, control a huge chunk of the media, and yet complain incessantly that the mean old Democrats won't let them do what they want.

Christians, by far.

Every time a government does something, say legalize gay marriage, at least one jackass comes out and proclaims it an attack on christianity. Hell, there are still people pissing and moaning about how christians are persecuted because schools don't force prayer and bible reading. Geez, it just gets so tiresome. For a religion that's done more than its share of persecution they sure have some nerve crying persecution when they are prevented from forcing their beliefs on others.*

*Yes, I know most christians are reasonable, sensible people who neither cry persecution at the drop of a hat nor do they try to force everyone to believe as they do. There is a very vocal minority that does either or both of these activities, however.

Oh, and as a sidenote, I'm also sick of the black people who make asses of themselves by proclaiming discrimination at every turn. "I didn't get the job because I'm black." "I showed up to a boutique three hours after I said I would and they wouldn't let me in, because I'm black." et c.

I'm surprised you forgot women. While not sexist they have it great yet still complain.

Ihatevacations']I was gonna say black people then I saw Christians and teh obvious train decided to stop and let me on. They have the greatest damn victim complex I have ever seen. They have jsut shy of a strangle hold on this nation and they (the zealots) CONSTANTLY bitch about how they are being held down by atheists or atheists are trying to take over the nation by the sole fact they oppose letting Christians do whatever they want

You don't see Christians suing in court because they see Justice (a secular/pagan) symbol at every courthouse, yet Atheists sue over the Ten Commandments, which anyone who agrees with the most basic of laws should be able to agree with.

I'm going to have to go with the Christians. All we've been hearing from them lately is how they are under attack and its not fair. Personally, I say good. The Christians had their chance to rule the world and it had its plusses and minuses. Now though, all I hear is whining about how they feel sorry for themselves because everybody is against them. Either that or the muslims are taking over the world.

If you want to see it in its true form, read this blog: www.closedcafeteria.blogspot.com

You don't see Christians suing in court because they see Justice (a secular/pagan) symbol at every courthouse, yet Atheists sue over the Ten Commandments, which anyone who agrees with the most basic of laws should be able to agree with.
And my point is proven, thank you.

Christians. Whenever they don't mention a religion (no prayer in schools, no "under God," etc.) it's always an attack on Christianity by the evil atheists who want to take over everything. Come on. By not putting up a bunch of Christian stuff (say the 10 commandments in a courtroom), we're oppressing you? If that is so, then every religion but Christianity is getting oppressed.

Christians being bigger whiners than blacks?

I laugh in your faces. I truly do. You try and deal with a delicate situation of being in the center of attention after a black accuses you of saying something racist.

Christians being bigger whiners than blacks?

I laugh in your faces. I truly do. You try and deal with a delicate situation of being in the center of attention after a black accuses you of saying something racist.
It is a VERY close race between the Christian zealots and the obsessed black people. I think there are alot more christian zealots though, so they win

Christians being bigger whiners than blacks?

I laugh in your faces. I truly do. You try and deal with a delicate situation of being in the center of attention after a black accuses you of saying something racist.

Not only blacks.

Once this smartass Puerto Rican kid in my History class asked why white people are so lazy and I replied: "I'm sure Puerto Rico has it's share of laziness too."

The response to this was a huge PC pantyknot. Everyone gasped: "What, a white person defending his race!?"

A bunch of self-righteous assholes gave me this fucking stinkeye look and called me a racist. I never wanted a gun in school more.

Ihatevacations']It is a VERY close race between the Christian zealots and the obsessed black people. I think there are alot more christian zealots though, so they win
Uh, no.

I have never even seen instances where Christians are crying. They seem to be quite comfortable in their throne thank you very much.

Ihatevacations']And my point is proven, thank you.
Yep--sure is. You can count on christians to play the victim card. You'd think they'd remember that they stopped being a minority/persecuted group right about the time they became the state religion of the Roman empire about 1700 years ago, but apparently not.

Uh, no.

I have never even seen instances where Christians are crying. They seem to be quite comfortable in their throne thank you very much.
Don't brouse these or ANY other forums often do you? Or read an opinion article in teh paper? Or watch a televangelist? The zealots consatnly bitch and moan about being oppressed everytime some one so much as sneezes around a church

Yep--sure is. You can count on christians to play the victim card. You'd think they'd remember that they stopped being a minority/persecuted group right about the time they became the state religion of the Roman empire about 1700 years ago, but apparently not.


That's like me saying atheists haven't persecuted since Lenin declared that religion had no place in the USSR in 1917. Or saying Jews haven't been persecuted since Israel was founded in 1948. Or Muslims haven't been persecuted since Mohammed conquered the Arabian peninsula.

I'm surprised you forgot women. While not sexist they have it great yet still complain.
I think the men who bitch about feminists have a bigger victim complex than the women who still don't have entirely equal rights.

Ihatevacations']Don't brouse these or ANY other forums often do you? Or read an opinion article in teh paper? Or watch a televangelist? The zealots consatnly bitch and moan about being oppressed everytime some one so much as sneezes around a churchBut I highly doubt they gang up on you and scream at you in the middle of the street in some crazy language that really isn't English anymore.

Your just listening to vocal Christians, that's all.

There's vocal white-supremists. Doesn't mean that white people are all racists now, are they?

C'mon...

Well, lets see-African-Americans are one to two generations from being forced to used seperate bathrooms and still see instances of inequality and racial hatred alive in certain parts of the country, women are still abused and payed less then their male counterparts.

As Jon Stewart pointed out in a joke last night, the Christians have been in charge since Constantine in the 300s. So yeah, they get the Wahhhmbulance award. Though the conservatives got my vote because it seems like they play that card at every frickin' turn while with the same mouth accusing every other group of the same thing.

I voted Jews/Israel.

First, they are the only ones on that list that have a special term invented just for bigotry against them. Second, this term gets thrown around a whole lot whenever criticism of Israel and it's policies comes up.

But then I thought, does Jesus count among the Christians or the Jews? It's hard to tell. I guess he was Judao-Christian. ;) But on that note, nothing says "victim card" like "OMG HE DIED JUST FOR YOU... AND [b]ALL HUMANITY'S SINS" in otherwords... martyrdom.

I know other groups have their martyrs as well, but none do I see so often in conversation as the guilt-trip o' Jesus.

Christians being bigger whiners than blacks?

I laugh in your faces. I truly do. You try and deal with a delicate situation of being in the center of attention after a black accuses you of saying something racist.

try being the only white person in an entire store, then having to deny a black person his check until he turns in his uniforms. especially when he threatens to shoot you.

on a related topic, did you know that you may not call the police in kansas until a person, and i quote the officers "has the gun under your nose" as if it werent alittle late at that point. anything before that point, and the police will be angry you bothered them.

That's like me saying atheists haven't persecuted since Lenin declared that religion had no place in the USSR in 1917.
Sorry--I was a little unclear in what I wrote. Yes--some christians have indeed been persecuted in the intervening years. But who's been doing the majority of that persecution? Fellow christians. In short, christians of various stripes have been giving as good as they've been getting for quite some time now, and yet they incessantly complain as though they're getting shut down left and right, when to be quite frank, that's bullshit.

Martyrdom and persecution are two basic tenets of christianity--Paul essentially said that if you're not being persecuted, then worry, because that means Satan is no longer worried about you, because he's won you over. That's the reason it gets so much action as a rhetorical device--christians have to believe they're under attack, because it helps sustain them as a group, even though in most places, they're the dominant religious, social and political groups.

There's vocal white-supremists. Doesn't mean that white people are all racists now, are they?

They have one hell of a dumbass victim complex too.

That's like me saying atheists haven't persecuted since Lenin declared that religion had no place in the USSR in 1917. Or saying Jews haven't been persecuted since Israel was founded in 1948. Or Muslims haven't been persecuted since Mohammed conquered the Arabian peninsula.
Oh yes, because lenin applied the magically, hard as hell to find "atheist religion" the christian zealots theme to think exist to the government. Not alot of jews around here, i'm not in chicago or new york or israel, so I dunno. And no, Christians havn't been a minority since sometime back in the what? 1400s?

Sorry--I was a little unclear in what I wrote. Yes--some christians have indeed been persecuted in the intervening years. But who's been doing the majority of that persecution? Fellow christians. In short, christians of various stripes have been giving as good as they've been getting for quite some time now, and yet they incessantly complain as though they're getting shut down left and right, when to be quite frank, that's bullshit.

Martyrdom and persecution are two basic tenets of christianity--Paul essentially said that if you're not being persecuted, then worry, because that means Satan is no longer worried about you, because he's won you over. That's the reason it gets so much action as a rhetorical device--christians have to believe they're under attack, because it helps sustain them as a group, even though in most places, they're the dominant religious, social and political groups.

I'm quite sure Paul didn't mean that you had to being fed to lions, but that there always has to be someone out there who hates you.

And there has to be a debate on whether the Christianity of a lot of so called Christian theocracies was a true Christianity.

And there has to be a debate on whether the Christianity of a lot of so called Christian theocracies was a true Christianity.
Not in this thread, there doesn't. :D

Ihatevacations']They have one hell of a dumbass victim complex too.


Oh yes, because lenin applied the magically, hard as hell to find "atheist religion" the christian zealots theme to think exist to the government. Not alot of jews around here, i'm not in chicago or new york or israel, so I dunno. And no, Christians havn't been a minority since sometime back in the what? 1400s?

Not only is your grammar horrible, and I have no idea what you mean in that first sentence. And saying the Jews haven't been persecuted in Arab countries is ri-fucking-donculous. And just because there may be a majority of Christians worldwide doesn't mean that they can't be persecuted in a specific location.

And I didn't say that atheism is a religion. It IS a belief though. It's a belief that there is no god (or gods) so don't give me that bullshit that Atheism is a lack of a belief, because that's an impossible paradox. The Soviet Union brutally stamped out any traces of religion it could find, and the state position was "There is no God", that's what the Atheists believe. ZOMG!?

Black people would be top of my list.

Ok 250 years ago they didnt have it so good. Ya know where I come from (England) we didnt have it to good with the Vikings, Romans and on a bad day the French.

Do Brits go about whining about how the Scandinavians owe us, how the Italians owe us ..and the French they do owe us (WWII)!

Here's a fact for you. The black people in Britain dont whine half as much as they do here in the US - why?

Because here the system enables it every day.

OJ Simpson Free - Scott Peterson - Toast.

OJ was framed because he was black. Peterson deserved it because he wasn't

And I didn't say that atheism is a religion. It IS a belief though. It's a belief that there is no god (or gods) so don't give me that bullshit that Atheism is a lack of a belief, because that's an impossible paradox. The Soviet Union brutally stamped out any traces of religion it could find, and the state position was "There is no God", that's what the Atheists believe. ZOMG!?

As usual, a non-atheist insisting his definition of atheism is correct.

Let's see what Merriam-Webster has to say though.

"n 1: the doctrine or belief that there is no God [syn: godlessness] [ant: theism] 2: a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods"

Your problem comes from thinking "lack of belief" means atheists have no spiritual beliefs at all, which would be your paradox. But atheism means lack of a particular belief - the belief in a [particular] God or gods. It is certainly possible and not paradoxical to lack a particular belief - for instance, you do not possess the belief that the universe is controlled by the Energizer Bunny.

ZOMG!?
Quick, non-critical question: What does the "z" stand for? It's not near the "o" so it can't be bad 1337 H@X0R spelling.

As usual, a non-atheist insisting his definition of atheism is correct.

Let's see what Merriam-Webster has to say though.

"n 1: the doctrine or belief that there is no God [syn: godlessness] [ant: theism] 2: a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods"

Your problem comes from thinking "lack of belief" means atheists have no spiritual beliefs at all, which would be your paradox. But atheism means lack of a particular belief - the belief in a [particular] God or gods. It is certainly possible and not paradoxical to lack a particular belief - for instance, you do not possess the belief that the universe is controlled by the Energizer Bunny.

That's not what I meant. I meant that if he tried to pull that shit that atheism is some inconceivable abstract that you can't call a belief since it's a lack of belief. Where it is really just a belief that is the exact opposite of the theist belief.

I would then possess the belief of A-Energy-Bunnyism, which would be the opposite of the Energizer-Bunnyism belief.

This argument is pretty senseless, since what I said could be interpreted if atheism is a belief or lack of a belief anyway. The truth is it can be expressed in both ways.

Parthini']Quick, non-critical question: What does the "z" stand for? It's not near the "o" so it can't be bad 1337 H@X0R spelling.
Either:

ZERIOUSLY?

or

ZERIOUSLY,

dependent on context.

I'll take that.

Haha... Zeriously... :p

It's worse when you're blamed for being racist by a Rwandan who claims that 1994 was just a civil war but champions every other civil rights movement from Lenin to the Palestinians. (It's true I swear.)

He and those Damnable Harry Potter fans!!!

im suprised. i would have expected two or three more pages of joking racial slur flinging until people dived into flaming. ah well, i suppose my bitching isnt helping much.

EMO

and EMO TROLLS too

White, protestant, male conservatives have a way of behaving like they have been downtrodden in this country for far too long and aren't going to take it any more.

Honorable mention: paranoid liberals who believe that Halliburton and the Department of Homeland Security are tapping their phones just for smoking a little pot, man.

The Jewish victim complex thing is overexaggurated, but it does bother me that the Holocaust is seen as a purely Jewish tragedy. About half of those killed were Jews and many of them were secular and not even involved in Jewish culture.

It's those damn North Andaman Islanders, I tell you what.

Christians have been in the drivers seat since 300 and change AD with the conversion of Constantine. Give it a rest. Seventeen centuries of bullshit for the crusifiction of one guy, who frankly given the behavior of his fans, probably got off easy. And my God the inceasent whining....

And by the way, Constantine converted for political purposes just like modern politicians who where their spirituality on their sleeves, Christians ate it up then, and they fall all over themselves for it now. They fall in love with any pretender that strolls along, confident in their superior morality, and acumen. What's most hilarious about this is the bible warns them to be cautions of such bargains with their faith as it leads from God and to ruin.

So who's voting for the Palestinians? Just curious if that's a mistake or if you actually think that they're playing the victim card when they're not being victimized?

That's not what I meant. I meant that if he tried to pull that shit that atheism is some inconceivable abstract that you can't call a belief since it's a lack of belief. Where it is really just a belief that is the exact opposite of the theist belief.

It's not an inconceivable abstract, it's common sense. I have a bucket of beliefs. It just so happens that "God exists" is not among them. That doesn't even mean I believe God does not exist. There's a difference between lack of white, and presence of black.

I would then possess the belief of A-Energy-Bunnyism, which would be the opposite of the Energizer-Bunnyism belief.

But you never even had the 'belief' of A-Energy-Bunnysim at all until confronted with the Energizer-Bunnysim belief. Arguably it is because you've just given a name to what was otherwise a simple lack of a particular belief.

This argument is pretty senseless, since what I said could be interpreted if atheism is a belief or lack of a belief anyway. The truth is it can be expressed in both ways.

It can be and is, but there is a difference between the two. Believing in no God is "hard" or "strong" atheism, not believeing in a God is so-called "weak" form of atheism. They are different, whether you choose to recognize it or not.

Liberals? Conservatives? Christians? Atheists? Jews/Israelis? Palestinians? Muslims? Harry Potter Fans? Who?
How about middle class, white heterosexual Christian males?

I would say we Christians and the Jews tie for the largest victim complex which is 100% justifiable. After all, we got fed to lions, grilled alive, scourged to death, etc. and the Jews got cremated alive and gassed to death.

Bleeding-heart liberals

PEOPLE. All these groups of people, completely different. All convinced they're being persecuted. Which means that people in general have a severe victim complex.

I'm going to have to go with the Christians. All we've been hearing from them lately is how they are under attack and its not fair. Personally, I say good. The Christians had their chance to rule the world and it had its plusses and minuses. Now though, all I hear is whining about how they feel sorry for themselves because everybody is against them. Either that or the muslims are taking over the world.

This is my choice as well. I'm sick of hearing them whine as if they'd prefer that we in the west all became theocracies. But of course no other religions allowed, only theirs.

I would say we Christians and the Jews tie for the largest victim complex which is 100% justifiable. After all, we got fed to lions, grilled alive, scourged to death, etc. and the Jews got cremated alive and gassed to death.I'd say Jews have a stronger case based on recent history.

In Hong Kong, EVERYBODY!

Public transport operators, construction workers, environmentalists, homosexuals, religious sectors, teachers, immigrants from the Mainland, immigrants from South Asia, expatriate domestic workers from SE Asia, pro-democracy activists...

Heck! Even politicians, university students and corporations always claim to be THE victim.

:rolleyes:

Uh... Why isn't FRANCE included?

I mean they discriminate other communities(jews,christians,muslims) as if their culture is threatened them!

For the victim complex that is unjustifiable, I choose atheists. "Oh no! Those Ten Commandments offend the god I don't believe in!" Sheesh, it's like they think any religious symbols will come to life and devour them or something. I guess it gives them a purpose in a life devoid of any purpose :D

For the victim complex that is unjustifiable, I choose atheists.
This is funny, coming from you, considering the self-righteous bigotry you like to spew, based on your belief system, completely ignoring that atheists don't share it, and therefore, find your 'justifications' to be based in nothing. And, unjustifiable? You've proven again and again that it is justified, through your own actions in this forum.

Blacks. I'm not racist or anything, but it's damn hard when they're saying that they are being oppressed every damn day.

I agree. And most vote Democrat (so I voted for "Liberals").

Since Tennessee got the lottery, many are trying to use the lottery to get rich... which, of course, means that the vast majority are really just throwing the money they have away.

Of course when you try to suggest investing that money, you get an earfull.

This is funny, coming from you, considering the self-righteous bigotry you like to spew, based on your belief system, completely ignoring that atheists don't share it, and therefore, find your 'justifications' to be based in nothing. And, unjustifiable? You've proven again and again that it is justified, through your own actions in this forum.

i love the phrase "self-righteous"... as if someone could be righteous in and of himself. lol

most people who are slapped with the self-righteous tag seem to be christians... so a valid response to the tag could be, "My beliefs are based on Jesus' teachings, and he WAS righteous. He was; I'm not."

or something like that.

Christians have been in the drivers seat since 300 and change AD with the conversion of Constantine. Give it a rest. Seventeen centuries of bullshit for the crusifiction of one guy, who frankly given the behavior of his fans, probably got off easy. And my God the inceasent whining....

And by the way, Constantine converted for political purposes just like modern politicians who where their spirituality on their sleeves, Christians ate it up then, and they fall all over themselves for it now. They fall in love with any pretender that strolls along, confident in their superior morality, and acumen. What's most hilarious about this is the bible warns them to be cautions of such bargains with their faith as it leads from God and to ruin.

Anyone who claims to know another man's heart is a fool.

Don't even pretend to know whether or not Constantine's, or anyone's, professions of faith are/were real.

Jesus gave us the beatitudes for a reason... especially the last verse, "Blessed are you when people persecute you... because of me."

of course, the persecution the first christians faced was 100 times greater than the pettiness we face today... i won't complain.

Blacks. I'm not racist or anything, but...
I hate these kinds of sentences.

i love the phrase "self-righteous"... as if someone could be righteous in and of himself. lol


I use this term because if one does not believe that this 'righteousness' comes from something outside (like a God, or Jesus), it would have to be found in the self, wouldn't it?

This is funny, coming from you, considering the self-righteous bigotry you like to spew, based on your belief system, completely ignoring that atheists don't share it, and therefore, find your 'justifications' to be based in nothing. And, unjustifiable? You've proven again and again that it is justified, through your own actions in this forum.



Self-righteous bigotry? That's a laugh! Thanks for cheering me up, and here I had thought this was all based on the word of God and Christ! :rolleyes:


Face it, you atheists lose NOTHING but hedonistic pleasure. You aren't burned at the stake, you aren't stoned, you just don't get to have "fun". You don't like being told what to do. Guess what: you don't have the right to sin. You might get away with it under our current constitution, but you don't have that right. You can do it, but face the consequences.

I voted Jews/Israel.

First, they are the only ones on that list that have a special term invented just for bigotry against them. Second, this term gets thrown around a whole lot whenever criticism of Israel and it's policies comes up.

But then I thought, does Jesus count among the Christians or the Jews? It's hard to tell. I guess he was Judao-Christian. ;) But on that note, nothing says "victim card" like "OMG HE DIED JUST FOR YOU... AND [b]ALL HUMANITY'S SINS" in otherwords... martyrdom.

I know other groups have their martyrs as well, but none do I see so often in conversation as the guilt-trip o' Jesus.
Assuming you're reffering to anti-semitism, last time I claimed that anybody against Jews was anti semitic I got shot down, saying semites are Muslims and Jews. so Its not a special term just for bigotry against them, its against Muslims and Jews. Also, do a search, I'm sure you'll find quotes like "Anti-American" or "America haters" will top that list, come up a lot more than anti-semitism with regards to Israel does.

He definitely counts among Christians, he's considered a traitor to the Jews. So that point is moot with regards to the Jews.



I voted Palestinians. For the last 50 years they've been claiming Israel oppresses them, whilst Arafats bank account grew mysteriously, and Hamas and Al-Aqsa's suddenly had weapons and bomb making material.

I'm going to have to go with black people, as well. Not out of racism, just out of fact.

Disclaimer for the following point: I am an agnostic.

For those of you saying that Christians compare to blacks in the degree and range of their victim complexes, I would ask you this: what do you hear more often? Be honest, now. A black friend of yours (if you have any), a politician, or a comedian bitching about how some higher power is keeping the blacks down, joking or otherwise; or a Christian friend of yours (if you have any), a politician, or a traditional father-figure talking about how he some higher power is keeping the Christians down, joking or otherwise?

In my experience, it has been overwhelmingly the former.

For me it’s a tie:

Women: Because even though recent studies have shown that they make more or equal to men at the same job in the same company, not on average, and the fact that they can use the mere fact that they are female to manipulate males in ways that males could never do to females, I say they have a huge victim complex.

Blacks: Anytime a black guy doesn’t get a job: racism. Anytime a black kid fails a class: racism. Anytime a white person doesn’t refer to a black person by the specific term they want them to: racism. Anytime you dare mention that blacks are more likely to contract HIV in their lifetime: racism.

A black friend of yours (if you have any), a politician, or a comedian bitching about how some higher power is keeping the blacks down,

You do realize what a comedian's job is right? And christians never say anything about being kept down but everywhere I look I see complaints about "atheists taking over" because Christians arn't allowed to do everything they want everywhere they want

Ihatevacations']You do realize what a comedian's job is right? And christians never say anything about being kept down but everywhere I look I see complaints about "atheists taking over" because Christians arn't allowed to do everything they want everywhere they want

A: I love how you cut out where I said, "joking or otherwise." What are you, quote retarded?
B: That is the atheists having a victim complex, not Christians. Hardcore atheists lately seem to think that it's unfair for any mention of God to be made anywhere that they might hear it, and act as if the only reason so many mentions of God are made is to spite them.

Besides, there's a little truth to all comedy, and many comedians actually do feel the way they act, to an extent. They just exaggerate it for the act - it's still present.

B: That is the athiests having a victim complex, not Christians. Hardcore athiests lately seem to think that it's unfair for any mention of God to be made anywhere that they might hear it, and act as if the only reason so many mentions of God are made is to spite them.
Ok, so the atheists have a victim complex. yes because you know having teh 10 commandments up in a courtroom in no way reflects the views of that court. A prayer time during public school supported by Christians is not religious in anyway and does not discriminate. under God was originally in the pledge of allegiance [/sarcasm]. If anyone dares question any of this, Christians jump up and down and scream persecution

Face it, you atheists lose NOTHING but hedonistic pleasure. You aren't burned at the stake, you aren't stoned, you just don't get to have "fun". You don't like being told what to do. Guess what: you don't have the right to sin. You might get away with it under our current constitution, but you don't have that right. You can do it, but face the consequences.
Way to prove people right...

Face it, you christians loose nothing when you're nolonger allowed to worthship your false idols. You aren't burned at the stake, you aren't stoned, you just don't get to "worthship". You don't like being told what to do. Guess what: you don't have the right to worthship false idols. You might get away with it under the current constitution, but you don't have that right. You can do it, but face the consequences.

See that's what a Muslim could say about the dominant religion in the United Bluff. I, as an Atheist, could say sommething just as senseless. But what would be the point? I think you're wrong Neo, but as long as you don't force others to live by your rules, I'll never stop you from being wrong ;)

About that Atheism arguement. It's really rather simple. Atheists disbelieves in god. People come up with fantastic claims, but when they present no proof, there's no reason to believe them.

The Similized world is the supreme god of fluffy handcuff's. He singlehandedly conjured them all up and made them in his image.

Noone in their right mind would believe that, let alone start worthshipping me because of it. Given our increasing understanding of our world and religion's (yea all of them) unsurpassed trackrecord for being hopelessly wrong, I don't see any more reason for believing in them than for believing in the above statement.

God (pick one) could prove he/it/she/they exist. That would instantly make me a believer. So it's not anti-faith or an anti-belief in religions in general. It's just refusal to take it seriously when there's no reason to.

Ihatevacations']Ok, so the atheists have a victim complex. yes because you know having teh 10 commandments up in a courtroom in no way reflects the views of that court. A prayer time during public school supported by Christians is not religious in anyway and does not discriminate. under God was originally in the pledge of allegiance [/sarcasm]. If anyone dares question any of this, Christians jump up and down and scream persecution
No, but the 10 commandments aren't offensive to the vast majority people in America, and they weren't made to smack atheists in the face, as atheists seem to feel they were. And prayer in school isn't required, except at some private schools, which atheists don't have to attend if they don't want to. People don't pray in school just to piss off atheists, and to think they do is just showing your victim complex. Besides, this nation was formed almost wholly by godfearing men, so it's not like "one nation under God" was ever inaccurate, or meant to be offensive. Whiny, uppity atheists of late just seem to think it was. Besides, I would be surprised if you could find one Christian that has said atheists are trying to persecute them.

No, but the 10 commandments aren't offensive to the vast majority people in America, and they weren't made to smack atheists in the face, as atheists seem to feel they were. And prayer in school isn't required, except at some private schools, which atheists don't have to attend if they don't want to. People don't pray in school just to piss off atheists, and to think they do is just showing your victim complex. Besides, this nation was formed almost wholly by godfearing men, so it's not like "one nation under God" was ever inaccurate, or meant to be offensive. Whiny, uppity atheists of late just seem to think it was. Besides, I would be surprised if you could find one Christian that has said atheists are trying to persecute them.
I agree that bit about the ten commandments is rediculous. It's one of the oldest examples of written law, so using it as a decoration at a place of law seems very appropriate. Christianity has played a large part in forming the laws of America, and foor good or ill, your culture is firmly based on it. Condemning or refusing facts and cultural inheritance is never a good idea.

Prayer in school is slightly different. If children who aren't christian attend the school it is coersion. It is because children rely heavily on schools for their opinions and background. You could, inadvertedly or on purpose, be taking a shit on a lot of kids and make their lives very difficult and confusing. Not to mention, many will feel it's a mild form of brainwashing, and I agree that it is.
If you're making a private school that isn't subsidised in any way by the state, I don't see how anyone would be able stop you from indoctrinating the pupils in any way you like.

Everything in America seems to be big. Utterly insignificant stuff becomes a question of life and death... Why is it so hard to use a bit of common sense?

My votes gotta go with christianity, but more specifically creationists

Americans, specifically Conservative Americans, specifically Conservative Christian Americans. Their party dominates the government, yet they are oppressed by the incredibly militant gay lobby, the powerful Democratic extremists, and the dictatorship of the judiciary. :rolleyes:

No, but the 10 commandments aren't offensive to the vast majority people in America, and they weren't made to smack atheists in the face, as atheists seem to feel they were.
DId you think even for a second that other religions have their own faith,s thing you know that THEY beleive in that isn't Christianity? How is a display of the 10 commandements in a courtroom good? Those are NOT the rules this country is ruled by nor the rules the person in the big chair should be ruling based on

And prayer in school isn't required
No, but the Christians claim persecution at the removal of mandatory breaks in teh day dedicated to "silent reflection," aka prayer time.

People don't pray in school just to piss off atheists,
I think the only one obsessed with atheists here is you. All you understand is Christian and atheist. Well everything isn't black and white, hate to burst your bubble. There are other RELIGIONS besides Christianity. They believe and worship other thigns believe it or not.

Besides, this nation was formed almost wholly by godfearing men, so it's not like "one nation under God" was ever inaccurate, or meant to be offensive. Whiny, uppity atheists of late just seem to think it was. Besides, I would be surprised if you could find one Christian that has said atheists are trying to persecute them.
prove it. You can't because the people who wrote the constitution and created this nation wern't lunatic bible thumpers. If they were this nation would be wholly based around Christianity, its not and never was. And it may not have been meant to be offensive, but it was never meant to be accurate. It was propaganda, and its emplyoed in teh same way now. hey lets add under God to seperate ourselves from those atheist commies and make the people feel important. The Christians now get uppity and employ their utterly non-existant knowledge of history and the founding of this nation if anything questions the under God.

Gays are the biggest whinners today.

White, male, upper-class Christian Americans. Followed closely by everyone else in creation who doesn't have it nearly as badly as they think they do.

You know who has a justifiable victim complex? No one. Everyone likes to think that they are being persecuted by the "other people". Face it. There is one solitary person on this planet who can honestly say that they have it worse than everyone else.

Americans, specifically Conservative Americans, specifically Conservative Christian Americans. Their party dominates the government, yet they are oppressed by the incredibly militant gay lobby, the powerful Democratic extremists, and the dictatorship of the judiciary. :rolleyes:


Bleeding heart liberals are also big-time whinners.

Bleeding heart liberals are also big-time whinners.
hahahahhaha

is that a cross between whiner and winner?

Americans, specifically Conservative Americans, specifically Conservative Christian Americans. Their party dominates the government, yet they are oppressed by the incredibly militant gay lobby, the powerful Democratic extremists, and the dictatorship of the judiciary. :rolleyes:




Maybe because we can't get legislation passed due to the filibuster and decisions made without some radical activist judge declaring it "unconstitutional" using some absurd rationale that everyone knows is false?

Americans, specifically Conservative Americans, specifically Conservative Christian Americans. Their party dominates the government, yet they are oppressed by the incredibly militant gay lobby, the powerful Democratic extremists, and the dictatorship of the judiciary. :rolleyes:
The people in power always feel oppressed, because generally everyone who isn't in with them, is against them:)

And I need your clarification on this puleeez: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9162205&postcount=68

Maybe because we can't get legislation passed due to the filibuster and decisions made without some radical activist judge declaring it "unconstitutional" using some absurd rationale that everyone knows is false?

Legislation such as telling other people how they can and cannot live their lives? Yes, how dare we trample upon your right to trample upon our rights!

Maybe because we can't get legislation passed due to the filibuster and decisions made without some radical activist judge declaring it "unconstitutional" using some absurd rationale that everyone knows is false?
Oh you mean like declaring having religious icons on goverment grounds for the sake of having religious icons is unconstitutional? Sounds pretty 1st amendmenty to me. You people go around yellnig activist judge like they are hutning you down in the street and you are trying to call people's atention to them so they won't slit your throat while no one is looking. God forbid anyone point out that the rightwing extremist judges are ALSO activist judges, making decisions that benefit the party and don't even attempt to base them on anything at all. When the hard rightwingers control teh USSC they will start basing decisions on Ann Coulter books, mark my words

hahahahhaha

is that a cross between whiner and winner?

I'm sorry I'm not perfect like you. You'd better report me to the mods for my spelling mistake.

/me adds Herbert W Armstrong to the list :p

Besides, this nation was formed almost wholly by godfearing men, so it's not like "one nation under God" was ever inaccurate, or meant to be offensive. Whiny, uppity atheists of late just seem to think it was. Besides, I would be surprised if you could find one Christian that has said atheists are trying to persecute the

The founding Fathers were Deists ;)


Christainity got my vote; I really have to say, this is the biggest bitching thread I have ever seen lol.

So who's voting for the Palestinians? Just curious if that's a mistake or if you actually think that they're playing the victim card when they're not being victimized?
Sanctaphrax or IDF, I imagine.

How about middle class, white heterosexual Christian males?
You forgot to mention that they are conservative. I know people who fit your desciption who are some of the most liberal/left-wing people you could find.

I would say we Christians and the Jews tie for the largest victim complex which is 100% justifiable.
It's this kind of whining we're talking about!
I feel like you are oppressing me by trying to get the government to ok something I believe is wrong. It's not just you who feels oppressed
That is by no means oppression. Pacifists are not oppressed if the government goes to war, but they are still allowed to protest against it - even if they think the war is wrong.. Socialists are not oppressed by tax cuts, even if they think they are wrong.

For the victim complex that is unjustifiable, I choose atheists.
Way to be biased! Atheists have been persecuted in the west far more recently than Christians up until 100 years ago you would be ostracised from society for not having faith. Just a few decades before that, the government would have been on your case!

I hate these kinds of sentences.
Totally! At least you didn't bother to say "I'm not anti-Christian, but..."!

Totally! At least you didn't bother to say "I'm not anti-Christian, but..."!
Na...I should have said, "I'm not anti-middle class, white heterosexual CONSERVATIVE males BUT..." :D

Legislation such as telling other people how they can and cannot live their lives? Yes, how dare we trample upon your right to trample upon our rights!
Well put. I can't wait until Neo Regolia proclaims you to be a militant atheist!

Don't even pretend to know whether or not Constantine's, or anyone's, professions of faith are/were real.
BWAHAHAHA. That is hilarious and just precious. Also "In God We Trust" was first added to the nation's *money* after the civil war out of a true piety, not as attempt to appear to be doing something by politicians. "Under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegence because encouraging poor grammer was the MOST important policy issue of the day, and clumsy, rote, everyday mention in children's loyalty oaths was the only thing that would convince God to destroy the communist ambitions three decades later. What a joke.

The real Christians, and there are few of them, one can tell them apart from the rest. They don't wear their religion on their sleeve, they keep it in their heart, and they are some of the nicest people a person can hope to meet. But they're also a minority.

Let me qualify this statement, I am Christian.

However, out of the list given, I would say a higher percentage of professed Christians than any other group given has a persecution complex (or what I like to call a "martyr complex'). Sometimes I think that, because early Christians were persecuted, many Christians today think that they must be persecuted as well. It doesn't matter that they are often on the upside of unequal treatment. It doesn't matter that no one has attempted yet to legislate their religion away.

There are also those who see "You can't force me to follow your religion," as persecution. I'm sure those same people would be saying the same thing, if they lived in a majority-fundamentalist Muslim country and were being told that they had to follow Shariah law. However, it is apparently difficult for such people to experience empathy, so it won't matter unless that ever happens.

And then there is the fact that these people are often weak of faith. They know that they can't possibly follow their own version of religion unless everyone else is doing it as well. They are sure that even listening to an alternate viewpoint will rip them off of their path and cause them to start having promiscuous gay sex or something. When they don't want to admit this, they stay instead that their children might non become Christian if the children are exposed to any ideas that might conflict with theirs. And they think this is justification, when all it demonstrates is that they believe their children's faith to be as weak as their own.

Let me qualify this statement, I am Christian.

However, out of the list given, I would say a higher percentage of professed Christians than any other group given has a persecution complex (or what I like to call a "martyr complex'). Sometimes I think that, because early Christians were persecuted, many Christians today think that they must be persecuted as well. It doesn't matter that they are often on the upside of unequal treatment. It doesn't matter that no one has attempted yet to legislate their religion away.

There are also those who see "You can't force me to follow your religion," as persecution. I'm sure those same people would be saying the same thing, if they lived in a majority-fundamentalist Muslim country and were being told that they had to follow Shariah law. However, it is apparently difficult for such people to experience empathy, so it won't matter unless that ever happens.

And then there is the fact that these people are often weak of faith. They know that they can't possibly follow their own version of religion unless everyone else is doing it as well. They are sure that even listening to an alternate viewpoint will rip them off of their path and cause them to start having promiscuous gay sex or something. When they don't want to admit this, they stay instead that their children might non become Christian if the children are exposed to any ideas that might conflict with theirs. And they think this is justification, when all it demonstrates is that they believe their children's faith to be as weak as their own.Dude, you are quickly rising to the top of my list of intelligent and knowledgeable posters. Excellent
work, sir.

Dude, you are quickly rising to the top of my list of intelligent and knowledgeable posters. Excellent
work, sir.

Well, I'm a girl.

But other than that, thanks! :fluffle:

Straight white upper-middle class suburban conservative fundamentalist Christian males. Boo-friggin'-hoo to you, too, dude! :p

Well, I'm a girl.

But other than that, thanks! :fluffle:

Even more reason for us to like you. ;)

Well, I'm a girl.

But other than that, thanks! :fluffle:
You made me think of 'the line' from T. S. Elliot's Murder in the Cathedral where the main character has an opportunity to martyr himself but he's questioning the act and it's motivation-

In the end the greatest treason,
is to do the right thing for the wrong reason.

Not sure what that adds per se, but thats what came to mind. Good post.

Christians being bigger whiners than blacks?

I laugh in your faces. I truly do. You try and deal with a delicate situation of being in the center of attention after a black accuses you of saying something racist.

Well if someone comes with that or another likewise invalid accusations I simply explain my point. If they still claim that I am a racist I laugh in their face and walk away. Whining or false accusations is no way for anyone to incur being treated better.

I voted Israelis, not Jews in general, just the ones claiming to be persecuted while holding a big, fat gun to another peoples heads.

I despise childkillers, no matter what they excuse their murders with. No matter the weapon used, dehydration kills just as effectively as a bullet.
Likewise I do not condone suicide bombers, they are just as bad.

Well put. I can't wait until Neo Regolia proclaims you to be a militant atheist!



:rolleyes:

You made me think of 'the line' from T. S. Elliot's Murder in the Cathedral where the main character has an opportunity to martyr himself but he's questioning the act and it's motivation-

In the end the greatest treason,
is to do the right thing for the wrong reason.

Not sure what that adds per se, but thats what came to mind. Good post.
Very Kantian, that. I'm more of a utilitarian, myself.

Blacks. I'm not racist or anything, but it's damn hard when they're saying that they are being oppressed every damn day.

OMFG!!! Its true!! They complain about freiking everything!!!

im not racist, but i do hate stupid city folk that talk funny and listen to crappy music. i just feal that its sad that most of them are black. sorry dudes that just how i feal.

just watch im going to be called a racist. just wait....

"whites" & men - particulary "white" men

As amply proven by the many sickening responses in this thread. :(

"whites" & men - particulary "white" men

As amply proven by the many sickening responses in this thread. :(
Cheer up. Some will earn Darwin Awards. That's always good fun ;)

Cheer up. Some will earn Darwin Awards. That's always good fun ;)

Oh oh! Pick me!!

Very Kantian, that. I'm more of a utilitarian, myself.
I was going to pretend to understand, but then I'd be found out pretty quickly. I figure I'll look like less of an ass if I just own up to the fact that in this case I'm in over my head up front.

Google and wikipedia are your friends ;)
None the less, it's pretty suprising you haven't been tought about at least Kant in school.


The key doctrine of Kant's philosophy, called transcendental idealism, is that the mind knows objects in the world only by means of sensible forms, space and time, which it produces itself. Without these forms, Kant argues, knowledge would not be possible because the mind would have no way to order or structure the data given to it by the senses. Kant therefore claims that we know objects only as they "appear" in space and time (rather than as "things in themselves"). While the specifics of Kant's account generated immediate and lasting controversy, his thesis that the mind itself makes a constitutive contribution to its knowledge (and that knowledge is therefore subject to limits which cannot be overcome) nevertheless irrevocably reshaped philosophy. Similarly, his argument that human beings are free inasmuch as their power of reason itself dictates a moral law for their actions redefined the terms of philosophical debate about morality.


Utilitarianism was originally proposed in 18th century England by Jeremy Bentham and others, although it can be traced back to ancient Greek philosophers such as Parmenides. Bentham was born at a time of great scientific and social change, and there were many demands for greater democracy. He worked on legal reform and wrote "Principles of Morals and Legislation" in which he set out his ethical theory. It can be divided into 3 parts: Views on what motivated human beings, the principle of utility, the Felicific calculus. From the principle of utility, he found pain and pleasure to be the only absolutes in the world: "nature has put man under the governance of two sovereign masters: pleasure and pain." From this he derived the rule of utility: that the good is whatever brings the greatest happiness to the greatest number of people. Later, after realizing that the formulation recognized two different and potentially conflicting principles, he dropped the second part and talked simply about "the greatest happiness principle".

I was going to pretend to understand, but then I'd be found out pretty quickly. I figure I'll look like less of an ass if I just own up to the fact that in this case I'm in over my head up front.
This thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=9115539&highlight=Utilitarianism+Objectivism#post9115539) is also your friend.

Right, I understand Kant's philosophy in the barest minimum sense as well as utilitarianism and can use google. But as much as I respect the general populace here, I'm not going to look to random postings here or on Wiki to get a more complex understanding in a way to comment intellegently on what The Nazz said. I should have been more specific.

Right, I understand Kant's philosophy in the barest minimum sense as well as utilitarianism and can use google. But as much as I respect the general populace here, I'm not going to look to random postings here or on Wiki to get a more complex understanding in a way to comment intellegently on what The Nazz said. I should have been more specific.
I can't claim to be an expert on Kant either--my knowledge of him is limited to what I picked up in an Ethics class about 7 years ago--but what I was referring to was Kant's argument that an action is moral only if it's done for the right moral reasons, regardless of the outcome of the action. He was more concerned with motive than with outcome as I recall. Mill was more concerned with the outcome than motive, I believe.

Jews. Im not racist or anything but the Jewish people are being made fun of more than any other listing on this page. But this was a very hard decission I was about to put Christians.

I can't claim to be an expert on Kant either--my knowledge of him is limited to what I picked up in an Ethics class about 7 years ago--but what I was referring to was Kant's argument that an action is moral only if it's done for the right moral reasons, regardless of the outcome of the action. He was more concerned with motive than with outcome as I recall. Mill was more concerned with the outcome than motive, I believe.
Ah, see. There we go.

I think I would stand in the middle somewhere on that notion. The right thing done for the wrong reason is easily corruptable and can be further used to justify wrong things done for the wrong reasons.

But at the same time, 'you can't argue with results.' If we 'got there' we 'got there,' and the road may have been messy but the job got done. I have a little bit of this in me for sure. Mostly with my boss'. If I get the job done who cares how I did it, essentially. But I can see cracks in both, I think.

But, that's not the topic of your thread...

How many posts in this thread contain the phrase, "I'm not a racist, but..."?

How many posts in this thread contain the phrase, "I'm not a racist, but..."?
Far too many, in my opinion, and to paraphrase someone far more intelligent than me, "Methinks they do protest too much."

I'm not a racist, but (sorry Cannot, I just couldn't resist) I'd put my money on Blacks.
The fact that most of them would complain about things that happened before their time is assinine. Especially when you consider the fact that a majority of the U.S. Black population is better off then they would be had their ancestors been left in their villages.
Ideas of modern oppresion are even more ridiculous, though the best example is Michael Jackson's claims that he was being "oppressed" by the "white man."
Dammit, he has an amusement park built in his backyard, has lost more money between the couch cushions then millions will ever own, and is pale enough to the point that he borders on luminesence. He IS the "white man."
Okay, so yeah, I sold out and did a cliched Michael joke, get over it.

I'm not a racist, but (sorry Cannot, I just couldn't resist) I'd put my money on Blacks.
The fact that most of them would complain about things that happened before their time is assinine. Especially when you consider the fact that a majority of the U.S. Black population is better off then they would be had their ancestors been left in their villages.
Ideas of modern oppresion are even more ridiculous, though the best example is Michael Jackson's claims that he was being "oppressed" by the "white man."
Dammit, he has an amusement park built in his backyard, has lost more money between the couch cushions then millions will ever own, and is pale enough to the point that he borders on luminesence. He IS the "white man."
Okay, so yeah, I sold out and did a cliched Michael joke, get over it.
Each part of your argument has a problem. The first part, the "it happened a long time ago and they ought to get over it" part, neglects the fact that real strides in civil rights only began to be made 40 years ago, and that there are still serious racsm issues in this country. Their lot has indeed improved over the last 40 years, but by no means have their problems dissipated.

As to the Michael Jackson crack, all I can say is that if you think he's a typical black man, then you're insane. I remember what Chris Rock said about OJ Simpson's trial--it wasn't about race, it was about fame, because if OJ drove a bus, he's be sitting in jail right now. He wouldn't even be OJ--he'd be Orenthal the bus driving murderer. Sure, when people like Jackson try to play the race card, it's ludicrous, but that doesn't mean that the race card itself is ludicrous. For the vast majority of blacks in the US, racism is still an issue they have to deal with every day, especially from people who say things like "I'm not a racist, but..."

Each part of your argument has a problem. The first part, the "it happened a long time ago and they ought to get over it" part, neglects the fact that real strides in civil rights only began to be made 40 years ago, and that there are still serious racsm issues in this country. Their lot has indeed improved over the last 40 years, but by no means have their problems dissipated.
My point is that if it didn't happen to you, you can't blame it for your problems. I don't complain about the great depression because my ancestor's lost their collective asses and lived in dirt poverty for the rest of their lives. The fact is, even those people who suffered from racism are better off here then back where there oppressors found them.

I don't want to debate modern racism, because its a whiney/bitchy thing to argue about that sounds really stupid considering the fact that I've got the sneaking suspicion that both of us are white. So, <super snip> there.

especially from people who say things like "I'm not a racist, but..."
I'd say that the worst form of racism coems from those people who say "they" alot and seek to help "them" overcome problems. That's the kind of thing that leads to "white man's burden." Except this white man doesn't want the burden, and most of the "beneficiaries" don't want to become the burdens.

Homosexuals! They cry and sue about everything. They are victims allright..... victims of perversion!

Methinks there should be a spot for the "It's Icky!!" people

As Jon Stewart pointed out in a joke last night, the Christians have been in charge since Constantine in the 1300s.

Knock the first "1" off ;). By 1300 the Roman Empire was dust.

I'm quite sure Paul didn't mean that you had to being fed to lions, but that there always has to be someone out there who hates you.

Meh. That happened a long time ago, I doubt you could even trace your family tree that far back

And there has to be a debate on whether the Christianity of a lot of so called Christian theocracies was a true Christianity.

No true Scotsman?

You are talking about the group that largely defined what Christianity was, promoted it and dominated it up until the Reformation. Even then it just split, largely remaining the same in nature just different in dogma. In all likelyness, your version of Christianity is the descendant of that early Church Christianity. So if that's not real Christianity, what does that make yours?

I would say we Christians and the Jews tie for the largest victim complex which is 100% justifiable. After all, we got fed to lions, grilled alive, scourged to death, etc. and the Jews got cremated alive and gassed to death.

Face it, you atheists lose NOTHING but hedonistic pleasure. You aren't burned at the stake, you aren't stoned,
Maybe because we can't get legislation passed due to the filibuster and decisions made without some radical activist judge declaring it "unconstitutional" using some absurd rationale that everyone knows is false?

Way to prove a point :rolleyes:

This happened a long time ago. It is not happening at the moment on a wide scale to such extremes. Co,pared to other groups being persecuted, Christianity is hardly touched. You just need to feel persucuted, so you trot out example that occured before Christianity achieved hegemony.

Christianity first dominated Europe, then after Europe dominated the world, so did Christianity. This claim that Christians are persecuted is ludicrous, especially for you. Living in Christian America. If you were a missionary in a hostile environment in a developing country, you'd have chance of being persecuted, but until then shut your whining.

Uh... Why isn't FRANCE included?

I mean they discriminate other communities(jews,christians,muslims) as if their culture is threatened them!

Do you have to have an operation for your head to be shoved that far up your arse :rolleyes:

Anyone who claims to know another man's heart is a fool.

Well around 1 billion Christians claim to know the heart of Jesus ;)

Don't even pretend to know whether or not Constantine's, or anyone's, professions of faith are/were real.

Yeah! Who needs historical research and theories, when we can just admit we know nothing and have a giant orgy.

Jesus gave us the beatitudes for a reason... especially the last verse, "Blessed are you when people persecute you... because of me."

Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice's sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven

Surely?

of course, the persecution the first christians faced was 100 times greater than the pettiness we face today... i won't complain.

I feel bad now. :(

This is a general response to those "but I'm not a racist"-types who have claimed "blacks" have the biggest victim complex.

There are these little things called history and discrimination. Although race has little or no biological significance, it has had and continues to have enormous significance. As historian Roger Wilkins has pointed out, Blacks have an about 385-year history on this continent: 245 involving slavery, 100 involving legalized discrimination, and only 40 involving anything else.

And if you do not think discrimination still ocurrs you are living in a dream world. Widespread discrimination and exclusion and their ripple effects continue to exist. Here are some (I know practically verboten here) facts:


Minorities and women remain economically disadvantaged: the black unemployment rate remains over twice the white unemployment rate; 97 percent of senior managers in Fortune 1000 corporations are white males; (28) in 1992, 33.3 percent of blacks and 29.3 percent of Hispanics lived in poverty, compared to 11.6 percent of whites. (29) In 1993, Hispanic men were half as likely as white men to be managers or professionals; (30) only 0.4 percent of senior management positions in Fortune 1000 industrial and Fortune 500 service industries are Hispanic. (31)


Blatant discrimination is a continuing problem in the labor market. Perhaps the most convincing evidence comes from "audit" studies, in which white and minority (or male and female) job seekers are given similar resumes and sent to the same set of firms to apply for a job. These studies often find that employers are less likely to interview or offer a job to minority applicants and to female applicants. (32)


Less direct evidence on discrimination comes from comparisons of earnings of blacks and whites, or males and females. (33) Even after adjusting for characteristics that affect earnings (such as years of education and work experience), these studies typically find that blacks and women are paid less than their white male counterparts. The average income for Hispanic women with college degrees is less than the average for white men with high school degrees. (34)


In 1994 alone, the Federal government received over 90,000 complaints of employment discrimination. Moreover 64,423 complaints were filed with state and local Fair Employment Practices Commissions, bringing the total last year to over 154,000. Thousands of other individuals filed complaints alleging racially motivated violence and discrimination in housing, voting, and public accommodations, to name just a few.


White males continue to hold 97 percent of senior management positions in Fortune 1000 industrial and Fortune 500 service industries. Only 0.6 percent of senior management are African American, 0.3 percent are Asian and 0.4 percent are Hispanic.


African Americans hold only 2.5 percent of top jobs in the private sector and African American men with professional degrees earn only 79 percent of the amount earned by their white counterparts. Comparably situated African American women earn only 60 percent of the amount earned by white males.


Women hold 3 to 5 percent of senior level management positions -- there are only two women CEOs in Fortune 1000 companies.


The fears and prejudices of lower-rung white male executives were listed as a principal barrier to the advancement of women and minorities. The report also found that, across the board, men advance more rapidly than women.


The unemployment rate for African Americans was more than twice that of whites in 1994. The median income for black males working full-time, full year in 1992 was 30 percent less than white males. Hispanics fared only modestly better in each category. In 1993, black and Hispanic men were half as likely as white men to be managers or professionals.


In 1992, over 50 percent of African American children under 6 and 44 percent of Hispanic children lived under the poverty level, while only 14.4 percent of white children did so. The overall poverty rates were 33.3 percent for African Americans, 29.3 percent for Hispanics and 11.6 percent for whites.


Black employment remains fragile -- in an economic downturn, black unemployment leads the downward spiral. For example, in the 1981-82 recession, black employment dropped by 9.1 percent while white employment fell by 1.6 percent. Hispanic unemployment is also much more cyclical than unemployment for white Americans. (39) Hispanic family income remains much lower, and increases at a slower rate, than white family income.


Unequal access to education plays an important role in creating and perpetuating economic disparities. In 1993, less than 3 percent of college graduates were unemployed; but whereas 22.6 percent of whites had college degrees, only 12.2 percent of African Americans and 9.0 percent of Hispanics did.


The 1990 census reflected that 2.4 percent of the nation's businesses are owned by blacks. Almost 85 percent of those black owned businesses have no employees


Even within educational categories, the economic status of minorities and women fall short. The average woman with a masters degree earns the same amount as the average man with an associate degree. (42) While college educated black women have reached earnings parity with college educated white women, college educated black men earn 76 percent of the earnings of their white male counterparts. (43) Hispanic women earn less than 65 percent of the income earned by white men with the same educational level. Hispanic men earn 81 percent of the wages earned by white men at the same educational level. The average income for Hispanic women with college degrees is less than the average for white men with high school degrees.


A study of the graduating classes of the University of Michigan Law School from 1972-1975 revealed significant wage differentials between men and women lawyers after 15 years of practice. While women earned 93.5 percent of male salaries during the first year after school, that number dropped to 61 percent after 15 years of practice. Controlling for grades, hours of work, family responsibilities, labor market experience, and choice of careers (large firms versus small firms, academia, public interest, etc.), men are left with an unexplained 13 percent earnings advantage over women.


Here is my source (http://clinton2.nara.gov/WH/EOP/OP/html/aa/aa04.html). It is the Clinton Administration's Affirmative Action Review: Report to the President. Please feel free to check its accuracy. In fact, read it. Learn it. Love it. Here are the footnotes (http://clinton2.nara.gov/WH/EOP/OP/html/aa/footnotes.html#aa28).

I'm not going to quote from everyone of the following sources, but each provides ample evidence of continuing discrimination against blacks in the United States:
National Urban League’s THE STATE OF BLACK AMERICA 2005 (Executive Summary) (javascript:Launch('publications/SOBA/2005SOBAEXCSUMMARY.pdf');)
We Don't Feel Welcome Here: African Americans and Hispanics in Metro Boston (http://www.civilrightsproject.harvard.edu/research/metro/discrimination_boston.php)
Civil Rights 101: RACE, CLASS, AND ECONOMIC JUSTICE (http://www.civilrights.org/research_center/civilrights101/economicjustice.html)
Race, Ethnicity, and Economic Well-Being (http://www.urban.org/Template.cfm?Section=ByTopic&NavMenuID=62&template=/TaggedContent/ViewPublication.cfm&PublicationID=8790)
U.S. Commission on Civil Rights -- Racial and Ethnic Tensions in American Communities: Poverty, Inequality, and Discrimination—Volume VII: The Mississippi Delta Report (http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/pubsndx.htm)
Is Resegregation Real? (http://www.civilrightsproject.harvard.edu/research/reseg03/mumford_response.php)
The Resegregation of Southern Schools (http://www.civilrightsproject.harvard.edu/research/reseg02/resegregation02.php)
A Multiracial Society with Segregated Schools (http://www.civilrightsproject.harvard.edu/research/reseg03/resegregation03.php)
Discrimination in Metropolitan Housing Markets (http://www.urban.org/Template.cfm?Section=ByTopic&NavMenuID=62&template=/TaggedContent/ViewPublication.cfm&PublicationID=7982)
Race, Place, and Segregation: Redrawing the Color Line in Our Nation's Metros (http://www.civilrightsproject.harvard.edu/research/metro/three_metros.php)

I can go on and on and on and on ... Don't make me.

Stop this whiny bullshit that ironically claims that blacks are whiners.

Can we remove christians from the poll please, they are no longer relevant to the modern world, and any reference to their barbaric superstitious nonsense is a regression of society.

Thanks

Knock the first "1" off ;). By 1300 the Roman Empire was dust.


Typo, ya caught me.

Nice post Cat-Tribe.

You can remove us from anything you like. However, you cannot and will not silence us. Good day my beloved lost sheep!

Typo, ya caught me.


Sorry for being a dirty pedant.

Just 1300 is drasticlly different from 300. :)

Sorry for being a dirty pedant.

Just 1300 is drasticlly different from 300. :)
Pfff. What could be soooo different in a millinium...











...oh, right...all that stuff...

Christians, definitely. It doesn't matter that they are a majority in the U.S. - they seem to have a thing for martyrdom. It's really quite nauseating.

I'd say atheists with Luciferian goths/vampires being a close second.

I can't see how anyone could make christians have a VICTIM complex. We've been fed to lions, have always been and still are being persecuted in certain parts of the world, but do we ever bitch? Hell no, we bust a cap in those motherfuckers and end up taking over in the end anyway.


I can't tell if you're being serious or not (at least, not without spending hours of my employer's time reading through all the posts so far in this thread - which is obviously out of the question). But anyway, it's not like Christians have ever persecuted anyone, huh? I mean, seriously, what Witch or heretic or Turk or Albigensian has ever been tortured or burned or hung or drowned or crushed to death or run through with a sword by Christians - I mean, aside from the millions that were tortured or burned or hung or drowned or crushed to death or run through with a sword during the Inquisitions and Witch Hunts and Crusades, of course? Christians have always been so peace-loving. :rolleyes:

Good post, Cat-Tribe. The most recent study I remember reading about had to do with how a white person convicted of a crime still had a better chance at being called back for a second interview for a job than a black person with a clean record.

Like I said in an earlier post--the situation may be better, but it still isn't good, and while individuals may play the race card improperly, that doesn't necessarily mean that the race card is in itself untrue or inaccurate. There are so many other groups who claim the mantle of victim today with less justification, and in case anyone can't tell which groups I feel ought to be on top of the list, I'm talking primarily about christians and conservatives.

I can't tell if you're being serious or not (at least, not without spending hours of my employer's time reading through all the posts so far in this thread - which is obviously out of the question). But anyway, it's not like Christians have ever persecuted anyone, huh? I mean, seriously, what Witch or heretic or Turk or Albigensian has ever been tortured or burned or hung or drowned or crushed to death or run through with a sword by Christians - I mean, aside from the millions that were tortured or burned or hung or drowned or crushed to death or run through with a sword during the Inquisitions and Witch Hunts and Crusades, of course? Christians have always been so peace-loving. :rolleyes:

Millions? :eek:

Do you think you are over-calculating some what?

Millions? :eek:

Do you think you are over-calculating some what?

No.

I put Jew/Isreali, does that make me anti-semetic, does that make me a Nazi?

Pretty much, most groups have a victum nature, its part of the identification process, either victimhood or supremicy complexes, you choose.

No.

Then I'll have to ask for the break down. Since "Millions" seems a bit excessive. Even for an agnostic like myself.

Christians and/or conservatives. If you're in control, you're hardly being oppressed, are you?

Can we remove christians from the poll please, they are no longer relevant to the modern world, and any reference to their barbaric superstitious nonsense is a regression of society.

Thanks

I think that bigotry is barbaric superstitious nonsense and a regregression of society. Does that mean we can kick you out?

Good god, Christians, without a doubt! Every day I have to hear these people pissing and moaning about this issue being an affrontment against them, or being targeted for this or that, and I just want to grab the nearest whiner and slap them around for about 5 minutes, while giving them a quick run-though of history since the Holy Roman Empire in 313 AD. It's really hard to convincingly scream oppresion when you're the ones in charge of the show for 1700 years, unless the people you're screaming to are as dumb as you are.
I like what Jon Stewart said. "Does the Christian victim complex come with an exipiration date?"

Good god, Christians, without a doubt! Every day I have to hear these people pissing and moaning about this issue being an affrontment against them, or being targeted for this or that, and I just want to grab the nearest whiner and slap them around for about 5 minutes, while giving them a quick run-though of history since the Holy Roman Empire in 313 AD.

I suggest you learn some history before you do that though. The Holy Roman Empire wasn't in existence for a few centuries after 313 AD ;)


(NB: The Holy Roman Empire, wasn't simply th Roman Empire with added Christianity. It was a seperate political entity that existed a while after Rome fell)


I like what Jon Stewart said. "Does the Christian victim complex come with an exipiration date?"

:D

Very true. I admit my mistake. Constantine came to power in 313 and made Christianity accepted, but I think it was around 379 or 380 that Theodosius made Christianity mandatory in the East Roman Republic under his rule.

cat-tribe: were those figures all from 11 years ago?

I imagine that they may have changed a little in a decade(not being sarcastic :) )


I almost picked the jews, but then i thought that they actually have reasons to be bitching. so i picked 'other' with blacks in mind.

The reason (in my mind) that everyone is saying that they arent recist, is because of how a african-american person would react. I also feal it is sad that african-american children/adolecents spend alot of their time today trying to look 'cool' by bying new shoes and clothes every four weeks instead of using the money to further their education. Before someone comments about white people, ill say we have a couple problems too. Hell of alot of white people are doing drugs(at least in my part of western michigan) instead of using the money for more usefull things. Personally I find it sickening, and when alians come I'll be right in line saying "pick me! pick me! I want to leave this hell hole" then..."take me to your females".

Like I said 'some' white people have problems too. im white if you havent gathered.

cat-tribe: were those figures all from 11 years ago?

I imagine that they may have changed a little in a decade(not being sarcastic :) )

The one set of bullet points? Yes.

The links - no. Some are from as recent as May 2005 and report very similar statistics. Some stats are a little better. Some are much worse.

Do you have evidence or reason to believe racism magically evaporated in last 11 years?


I almost picked the jews, but then i thought that they actually have reasons to be bitching. so i picked 'other' with blacks in mind.

The reason (in my mind) that everyone is saying that they arent recist, is because of how a african-american person would react. I also feal it is sad that african-american children/adolecents spend alot of their time today trying to look 'cool' by bying new shoes and clothes every four weeks instead of using the money to further their education. Before someone comments about white people, ill say we have a couple problems too. Hell of alot of white people are doing drugs(at least in my part of western michigan) instead of using the money for more usefull things. Personally I find it sickening, and when alians come I'll be right in line saying "pick me! pick me! I want to leave this hell hole" then..."take me to your females".

Like I said 'some' white people have problems too. im white if you havent gathered.

I'm also white. But I don't characterize a whole group of the population based on stereotypes of their young people.

And I recognize that blacks are historically and currently significantly disadvantaged in this country by a whole host of measures.

Very true. I admit my mistake. Constantine came to power in 313 and made Christianity accepted, but I think it was around 379 or 380 that Theodosius made Christianity mandatory in the East Roman Republic under his rule.

I think you are still mixed up.

The Holy Roman Empire occupied much of what is now Germany and its first Emperor was Charlemagne, establish c. 800AD iirc (I think on Christmas Day traditionally :confused: ). And was a major European power for a fairly long time.


There is a bit of a joke about it as it wasn't particuarly [W]hol[e]y (seperated into lots of little bits), Roman (it was Germanic primerily) and couldn't really be conidered an Empire. Local Princes had quite a bit of local influence and power (especially after the Peace of Ausburg, and after the Habsburg heir became a "Spaniard")

Then I'll have to ask for the break down. Since "Millions" seems a bit excessive. Even for an agnostic like myself.

Try this:
http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/estimates.doc

Pfff. What could be soooo different in a millinium...
Thanks to Christian governments? Not as much as there might have been.

Try this:
http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/estimates.docIt seems to me that 50 million would be an extremely conservative estimate.

I must just be slow today. After reading the whole thread, I still am not understanding how Christians are being persecuted in the west today.

Ihatevacations']I was gonna say black people then I saw Christians and teh obvious train decided to stop and let me on. They have the greatest damn victim complex I have ever seen. They have jsut shy of a strangle hold on this nation and they (the zealots) CONSTANTLY bitch about how they are being held down by atheists or atheists are trying to take over the nation by the sole fact they oppose letting Christians do whatever they want

I agree with this guy.

Christians and/or conservatives. If you're in control, you're hardly being oppressed, are you?

I think the problematic term with conservative Christians isn't "victim" but "complex." They're a little too simplistic and closed minded to appear anywhere near the word "complex." What they have is a victim simplex.

I think the problematic term with conservative Christians isn't "victim" but "complex." They're a little too simplistic and closed minded to appear anywhere near the word "complex." What they have is a victim simplex.
That's going in my siggy.

I think the problematic term with conservative Christians isn't "victim" but "complex." They're a little too simplistic and closed minded to appear anywhere near the word "complex." What they have is a victim simplex.

:D *applause*

Self-righteous bigotry? That's a laugh! Thanks for cheering me up, and here I had thought this was all based on the word of God and Christ! :rolleyes:


Face it, you atheists lose NOTHING but hedonistic pleasure. You aren't burned at the stake, you aren't stoned, you just don't get to have "fun". You don't like being told what to do. Guess what: you don't have the right to sin. You might get away with it under our current constitution, but you don't have that right. You can do it, but face the consequences.

Yes, they do, for two reasons.

For one thing, the measure by which Christians are judged, according to Paul, is the degree to which they accept Jesus' new covenant with them. Paul describes it as a "circumcision of the heart." The key, however, is that to truly be circumsized in the heart, you have to want to be circumsized in the heart. But the law has no power to dictate what people do and do not want. Therefore, the law cannot and should not be used as a tool for conversion; because conversion by the sword simply does not lead to true Christendom among the converted, and the use of the sword in itself is a violation of Christian edicts.

For another, part of Christ's covenant is the idea that certain thoughts are sinful: thinking about adultery, for example, is just as bad as committing adultery. The law has no power to regulate and punish for bad thoughts, though. Ergo, the law again has no power to enact Christianity by force, because there are elements of Christianity that are beyond the law's power to prosecute.

Both of these points are pretty much word for word straight out of St. Augustine's City of God. As a Christian, you should already know this.
****************************************************

On the main topic, I would say that conservatives have the greatest victim complex, primarily because while you can have Christianity without a victim complex, I don't think modern conservatism would or could exist without its belief that all contradictory information is just another attempt by their opposition to brainwash little kids and the gullible. There is simply too much evidence that shows most of their policies (supply-side economics, tough-on-crime-policies, the death penalty) don't work without some way to dismiss that evidence.

Yes, they do, for two reasons.

For one thing, the measure by which Christians are judged, according to Paul, is the degree to which they accept Jesus' new covenant with them. Paul describes it as a "circumcision of the heart." The key, however, is that to truly be circumsized in the heart, you have to want to be circumsized in the heart. But the law has no power to dictate what people do and do not want. Therefore, the law cannot and should not be used as a tool for conversion; because conversion by the sword simply does not lead to true Christendom among the converted, and the use of the sword in itself is a violation of Christian edicts.

For another, part of Christ's covenant is the idea that certain thoughts are sinful: thinking about adultery, for example, is just as bad as committing adultery. The law has no power to regulate and punish for bad thoughts, though. Ergo, the law again has no power to enact Christianity by force, because there are elements of Christianity that are beyond the law's power to prosecute.

Both of these points are pretty much word for word straight out of St. Augustine's City of God. As a Christian, you should already know this.
****************************************************

On the main topic, I would say that conservatives have the greatest victim complex, primarily because while you can have Christianity without a victim complex, I don't think modern conservatism would or could exist without its belief that all contradictory information is just another attempt by their opposition to brainwash little kids and the gullible. There is simply too much evidence that shows most of their policies (supply-side economics, tough-on-crime-policies, the death penalty) don't work without some way to dismiss that evidence.


You just blew my mind!

*lights a cigarette*