NationStates Jolt Archive

As this article points out. This follows some off colored remarks by Fox the president of Mexico about African Americans. The Mexican post office not to be out done by el presidente does this :

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/06/29/mexico.stamp.ap/index.html

How come a Mexican stamp has a $ symbol?

thats because they use the peso. Most countries I have seen use the $ symbol that is not any relation to the pound.

Reminds me of these old Banania posters. Many of my friends have them on their wall... and one of them is from Kenya! It is just hilarious.

I think that although the government is not trying to be racist, continuing the production of these stamps is one major tactical error.

I think that although the government is not trying to be racist, continuing the production of these stamps is one major tactical error.
I remember in the US a year or two ago conservatives were all foaming at the mouth after the US post office released a stamp with a picture of that Frida artist woman who was a raging communist back in the day. So the point is that perhaps the government doesn't necessesarily endorse the stamp. Also different countries should get different symbols for their currencies if everybody uses the $ it is confusing..

I think it's just a case of bad timing, although Fox's remarks were pretty ignorant. But if there are African American (American as in anyone from the Americas) communities that protest this stamp it should be recalled. However I see Americans (American as in people from the U.S.) being in no position to criticize when you take into account the mascot for the Cleveland Indians.

I think it's just a case of bad timing, although Fox's remarks were pretty ignorant. But if there are African American (American as in anyone from the Americas) communities that protest this stamp it should be recalled. However I see Americans (American as in people from the U.S.) being in no position to criticize when you take into account the mascot for the Cleveland Indians.

Im an American and I reserve the right to criticize anyone. Just because some team in Cleveland has an Indian as a mascot doesnt exclude my opinion. I dont own that team and surely dont live in Cleveland.

I remember in the US a year or two ago conservatives were all foaming at the mouth after the US post office released a stamp with a picture of that Frida artist woman who was a raging communist back in the day. So the point is that perhaps the government doesn't necessesarily endorse the stamp. Also different countries should get different symbols for their currencies if everybody uses the $ it is confusing..
The character is from a comic book, but it's based on the prejudices towards black people still held in many places in Mexico. It's in bad taste, no doubt.

And the $ symbol to denote money has been in use long before the dollar or the peso. It was used in American countries before the US independence and was an abbreviation for the weight of the coin. In fact, the word "peso" means simply weight.

EDIT: Here's a page with some theories about the origin of the $ symbol.
http://www.ex.ac.uk/~RDavies/arian/dollar.html

I think it's just a case of bad timing, although Fox's remarks were pretty ignorant. But if there are African American (American as in anyone from the Americas) communities that protest this stamp it should be recalled. However I see Americans (American as in people from the U.S.) being in no position to criticize when you take into account the mascot for the Cleveland Indians.
Technically, their mascot is this strange purple thing that has nothing to do with the team's name. If you ask me it's a better idea for a mascot that the Blue Jay's B.J. Birdie... at least in name...

Thier logo is cute though, but I can see how that could be offensive. Meh. People need to grow senses of humour.

Also, since when is $ for pounds too? I thought you guys had some entirely different symbol for it...

Also different countries should get different symbols for their currencies if everybody uses the $ it is confusing..
OK. Find 174 free spots on your keyboard, and you'll be able to fit all these funny little symbols.

However I see Americans (American as in people from the U.S.) being in no position to criticize when you take into account the mascot for the Cleveland Indians.

Let's all be hypersensitive because a team's mascot is an Indian. While we're at it, how about Appalachian University's mascot the mountaineer? Haven't you ever stopped to think that such a stereotype might be hurtful and insensitive to the native culture in that region? What country are you from anyway, son?

Let's all be hypersensitive because a team's mascot is an Indian. While we're at it, how about Appalachian University's mascot the mountaineer? Haven't you ever stopped to think that such a stereotype might be hurtful and insensitive to the native culture in that region? What country are you from anyway, son?

So are you saying that it's okay for a USian to be hypersensitive about a Mexican stamp's stereotypical depiction of an African but not okay for a "foreigner" to be hypersensitive about a U.S. Baseball team's depiction of Native Americans? The highlighted part of your post tells me that you do not understand the point I'm making.

Im an American and I reserve the right to criticize anyone. Just because some team in Cleveland has an Indian as a mascot doesnt exclude my opinion. I dont own that team and surely dont live in Cleveland.

You can reserve the right to criticise anyone you want but the mentality behind posting this thread is typical of U.S. foreign policy. You are condemning another country for a fault that your own country possesses. Wouldn't it be in the best interests of Democracy for the physician to heal himself?

I don't hear of anyone complaining about baseball team mascots. Not recently, anyhow.

"It seems nice if Memin can travel all over the world, spreading good news," de la Parra said, calling him "so charming, so affectionate, so wonderful, generous and friendly."

Hmm, now here's a question for you all:

Would it be more or less racist if Memin was ugly, hateful, boring, stingy and mean?

Hmm, now here's a question for you all:

Would it be more or less racist if Memin was ugly, hateful, boring, stingy and mean?

The same.

Just because its a good stereotype doesn't detract from it being a stereotype.

You can reserve the right to criticise anyone you want but the mentality behind posting this thread is typical of U.S. foreign policy. You are condemning another country for a fault that your own country possesses. Wouldn't it be in the best interests of Democracy for the physician to heal himself?
But the criticism still stands. This thread is not about the flaws of the US (has anyone made a thread about those? :) ), but the flaws of Mexico, and they exist. It's of no use to turn a blind eye on them or make ad-hominem attacks against those bringing them up.

But the criticism still stands. This thread is not about the flaws of the US (has anyone made a thread about those? :) ), but the flaws of Mexico, and they exist. It's of no use to turn a blind eye on them or make ad-hominem attacks against those bringing them up.

If you refer to post 7 of this thread you will see that I do not advocate the stamp nor racist remarks made by Fox. What I'm wondering is that as "leaders" in the pursuit of world wide democracy shouldn't the U.S. atleast try to lead by example?

If you refer to post 7 of this thread you will see that I do not advocate the stamp nor racist remarks made by Fox. What I'm wondering is that as "leaders" in the pursuit of world wide democracy shouldn't the U.S. atleast try to lead by example?
No. Each nation should take a critical look at themselves and ask where they want to be and what they have to do to get there. Leave others to their own designs except where it directly affects them.

In any case, whatever the US should or shouldn't do is not the point of this thread. This thread is about prejudice in Mexico. Of which there isn't much. Only against blacks, and natives, and the poor, and women, and homosexuals, and foreigners (especially from Latin America), and people who study in public universities, and the ones who live in Ciudad Neza, and a few others.

But that's all.

OK, let me say that again.
Lots of people have Banania posters on their walls. These posters are sold in many decoration stores.
Here's an example:
http://webpub.allegheny.edu/employee/c/cbakken/images/banania.jpg

Are these racist? Are these offensive? Should we ban them?

I have an African friend (from Kenya) who happens to have a GIGANTIC Banania poster in his kitchen. He sees that as a joke... and as a nice looking poster, nothing more. After all, it's from a long time ago.

I don't hear of anyone complaining about baseball team mascots. Not recently, anyhow.
You mean like one's that look like cartoonish versions of Native Americans?

Ah, we just don't have enough political clout to make it an issue.

thats because they use the peso. Most countries I have seen use the $ symbol that is not any relation to the pound.

That $ is not the pound sign, that is the dollar sign.

This is the pound sign - £

This thread is about prejudice in Mexico. Of which there isn't much. Only against blacks, and natives, and the poor, and women, and homosexuals, and foreigners (especially from Latin America), and people who study in public universities, and the ones who live in Ciudad Neza, and a few others.

But that's all.
Hehehehehehe.

No. Each nation should take a critical look at themselves and ask where they want to be and what they have to do to get there. Leave others to their own designs except where it directly affects them.

Exactly

In any case, whatever the US should or shouldn't do is not the point of this thread. This thread is about prejudice in Mexico. Of which there isn't much. Only against blacks, and natives, and the poor, and women, and homosexuals, and foreigners (especially from Latin America), and people who study in public universities, and the ones who live in Ciudad Neza, and a few others.

But that's all.

And ofcourse those prejudices don't exist in the U.S.

And ofcourse those prejudices don't exist in the U.S.
¡Y vuelve la burra al trigo!

We are not talking about the US. It's whether Memín Pingüín is racist or not and if it should be put on stamps or not.

¡Y vuelve la burra al trigo! Jajajajaj!

We are not talking about the US. It's whether Memín Pingüín is racist or not and if it should be put on stamps or not.
Exactly! I'm sick to death of talking about the US in every single thread, even when the thread has nothing to do with the US! Can we just please, for a moment, forget about that country and look at what the rest of the world is up to lately? It's more interesting anyway:) (sorry to any yanquis who disagree, I'm a bitch of a Canuk)

While we're at this...
Is Speedy Gonzales a racist character?

Will Mexican forums debate endlessly on the subject of this shocking little mouse that yell "arriba! arriba! andale! andale! yayyy"?

While we're at this...
Is Speedy Gonzales a racist character?

Will Mexican forums debate endlessly on the subject of this shocking little mouse that yell "arriba! arriba! andale! andale! yayyy"?
Good question! Mexicans? What do you think of this lovable little character?

What of all the people that will be offended if the stamp isnt made?

It is really amazing how fuzzy logic of this or that is racist is used to basically control a population. 1984 had it totally wrong, you dont need to control a population via watching them, you can do it much easier by making anything and everything taboo. "racist" if you will...i mean you are debating A STAMP, A CARTOON, AND A BASEBALL TEAM. While your busy debating that, your government is passing laws making you slowly more dependant on the government.

What of all the people that will be offended if the stamp isnt made?

It is really amazing how fuzzy logic of this or that is racist is used to basically control a population. 1984 had it totally wrong, you dont need to control a population via watching them, you can do it much easier by making anything and everything taboo. "racist" if you will...i mean you are debating A STAMP, A CARTOON, AND A BASEBALL TEAM. While your busy debating that, your government is passing laws making you slowly more dependant on the government.

We're arguing about that too, just on another thread.

¡Y vuelve la burra al trigo!

We are not talking about the US. It's whether Memín Pingüín is racist or not and if it should be put on stamps or not.


Look up... way up... the title of this thread is "Mexican government is at it again with racism."

Now Markreich has the right to post whatever thread he likes. Just as I have the right to respond and let you know what a bunch of hypocrits you are.

While we're at this...
Is Speedy Gonzales a racist character?

Will Mexican forums debate endlessly on the subject of this shocking little mouse that yell "arriba! arriba! andale! andale! yayyy"?
He is a stereotype, but he's also a character in a cartoon which also involved a cat surviving a safe landing on his head.

Memín is supposed to be realistic, all the other characters are drawn realistically except him, who is also the only black character in the comic (apart from his mother, who is not drawn realistically either). I don't think that makes him a racist comic per se, but it contributes to perpetuate long held stereotypes about blacks.

Look up... way up... the title of this thread is "Mexican government is at it again with racism."

Now Markreich has the right to post whatever thread he likes. Just as I have the right to respond and let you know what a bunch of hypocrits you are.
Well, technically you were saying that only those who have no flaws should criticize. For example, Markreich being from the US should, a country that exhibits traits of racism, should not criticize the racism in Mexican society of government. But the question is, why not?

If the point is valid, and it is, then the criticism should stand, wherever it's coming from. Not accepting it because it's coming from a less than perfect source is an ad-hominem attack and invalidates your position.

Besides, who are you calling an hypocrit? The US at least admits that they still have a lot to do in regards to equal rights. Mexico can't even recognize the rights of native peoples or illegal immigrants, and yet our government and society take every chance we get to criticize the US on these grounds.

Well, technically you were saying that only those who have no flaws should criticize. For example, Markreich being from the US should, a country that exhibits traits of racism, should not criticize the racism in Mexican society of government. But the question is, why not?

If the point is valid, and it is, then the criticism should stand, wherever it's coming from. Not accepting it because it's coming from a less than perfect source is an ad-hominem attack and invalidates your position.

Besides, who are you calling an hypocrit? The US at least admits that they still have a lot to do in regards to equal rights. Mexico can't even recognize the rights of native peoples or illegal immigrants, and yet our government and society take every chance we get to criticize the US on these grounds.

If someone steals money from a person then, a few hours later they themselves are robbed, you don't think it's hypocritical when they run to the police?

If someone steals money from a person then, a few hours later they themselves are robbed, you don't think it's hypocritical when they run to the police?

1. Sure. But he was still robbed. Should his robber go unpunished?

2. Mexicans -- including blacks -- have complained about the stamp. So have Hispanics in the US and blacks in the U.S.? Are you saying none of them have a right to criticize they racist stamp?

3. The Cleveland Indians and Speedy Gonzales aren't sponsored by the US Government.

4. Look around, I criticize US racism constantly. I criticize racism period. Nothing hypocritical about it.

There is no racism against Black people in Mexico, therefore these stamps are not racist.

There is no racism against Black people in Mexico, therefore these stamps are not racist.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Mexicans -- particularly black Mexicans -- disagree, my friend.

I think it's just a case of bad timing, although Fox's remarks were pretty ignorant. But if there are African American (American as in anyone from the Americas) communities that protest this stamp it should be recalled. However I see Americans (American as in people from the U.S.) being in no position to criticize when you take into account the mascot for the Cleveland Indians.

So if the cattle ranchers of texas were up in arms over the Cowboys mascot, Jerry Jones should just change the name of the team?

They ought to have a referendum or something... let native americans vote on it.

1. Sure. But he was still robbed. Should his robber go unpunished?

No, but neither should the first thief.

2. Mexicans -- including blacks -- have complained about the stamp. So have Hispanics in the US and blacks in the U.S.? Are you saying none of them have a right to criticize they racist stamp?

If you read my first post in this thread you'll see that I agree that if Africans, whether they be from Mexico, Zimbabwe or the U.S. find the stamp offensive then it should be recalled. My main criticism of this thread is that it reflects the U.S. government's hypocritical attitudes towards problems in other countries that they themselves possess.

3. The Cleveland Indians and Speedy Gonzales aren't sponsored by the US Government.

But they are culturally accepted icons.

4. Look around, I criticize US racism constantly. I criticize racism period. Nothing hypocritical about it.

This is exactly my point. If you are going to condemn the stamp that's one thing, but then let's not ignore the racist attitude that inspired this thread in the first place. The title of this thread is not "Vincente Fox's government is at it again with racism."

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Mexicans -- particularly black Mexicans -- disagree, my friend.
I know many Mexicans who come from Puebla and Guadalajara.
While they acknowledge there is discrimination and exclusion on the ground of skin color (because Mexican skins come in all shades between almost-white and dark brown), they're proud that their country isn't racist, has never supported slavery, and never had segregationist laws.

So if the cattle ranchers of texas were up in arms over the Cowboys mascot, Jerry Jones should just change the name of the team?

They ought to have a referendum or something... let native americans vote on it.

Unlike the Spaniards, the British were very efficient in wiping out the Native American population. So, unlike Venezuela where the President is Native American, the indegenous people of the U.S. do not have much of a political voice. they are, in fact, a very small minority, much like the Africans in Mexico.

Now if you want to fight for the rights of Africans in Mexico, I applaud your efforts, but don't you think it's a racist double standard to condemn the Mexican government while ignoring the rights of Natives living in your own country?

I know many Mexicans who come from Puebla and Guadalajara.
While they acknowledge there is discrimination and exclusion on the ground of skin color (because Mexican skins come in all shades between almost-white and dark brown), they're proud that their country isn't racist, has never supported slavery, and never had segregationist laws.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/06/29/mexico.stamp.ap/

Activists said the stamp was offensive, though officials denied it.

"One would hope the Mexican government would be a little more careful and avoid continually opening wounds," said Sergio Penalosa, an activist in Mexico's small black community on the southern Pacific coast.

...

However, Penalosa said many Mexicans still assume all blacks are foreigners, despite the fact that at one point early in the Spanish colonial era, Africans outnumbered Spanish in Mexico.

"At this point in time, it was probably pretty insensitive" to issue the stamp, said Elisa Velazquez, an anthropologist who studies Mexico's black communities for the National Institute of Anthropology and History.

"This character is a classic, but it's from another era," Velazquez said. "It's a stereotype and you don't want to encourage ignorance or prejudices."

http://www2.eluniversal.com.mx/pls/impreso/noticia.html?id_nota=11044&tabla=miami

When asked whether the controversy could be fueled by a cultural misunderstanding, Lisa Navarrete, a spokeswoman for National Council of La Raza in Washington, said that as Hispanic-American organization "we certainly know our own culture, and we are still outraged."

Carlos Muñoz, a professor emeritus at the Department of Ethnic Studies at the University of California at Berkeley, said "people in the Fox administration, and perhaps even Fox himself, need a lesson in African contribution to Mexican history."

"It's a manifestation of the ignorance, of the racism that continues to exist in Mexican culture," Muñoz said. "Mexico, like the USA, is a very racist society. Mexico has just been more successful at ignoring its African culture than the U.S."

http://www.dialoguebetweennations.com/dbnetwork/english/oscar.asp
Our Racism: In Confronting It, We Will Surpass It (http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/americas/mexico/racism2.html)
Healing scars of racism (http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/mexico/1994-0211-gazette-racism.html)
NGO Proposals to Fight Racism (http://www.dialoguebetweennations.com/dbnetwork/english/oscar2.htm)
Mexican Ways, African Roots (http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WSJ%2FMGArticle%2FWSJ_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031783374743&path=!localnews&s=1037645509099)

This is exactly my point. If you are going to condemn the stamp that's one thing, but then let's not ignore the racist attitude that inspired this thread in the first place. The title of this thread is not "Vincente Fox's government is at it again with racism."

It is also not Mexico is at it again with racism or Mexicans are at it again. It accurately says the Mexican government is at it again with racism.

Nor would it be racist to say Mexico is a racist country. So it the US.

if Africans, whether they be from Mexico, Zimbabwe or the U.S. find the stamp offensive then it should be recalled.

They do. Those of African descent living in both Mexico and the US find it offensive. So do many, including me and the thread author, of those living in Mexico and the US that are not of African descent.

But you appear to say it is racist for us to object to racism. :rolleyes:

But they are culturally accepted icons.

Um. The use of Indian mascots is rather hotly debated and criticized here in the US. I oppose it.

Speedy Gonzales I'm not sure is offensive, and I'm not sure I've ever heard a complaint.

The Taco Bell chihuaha is hotly debated and criticized.

1) Americans do not understand Mexican history and culture
2) They don't even try it, they just condemn.
3) Memin Pinguin as been around for almost 40 years. Yeah, the drawings are based on what was the standard for drawing african-american people in those days, but guess what? While in america that style was used in racist ways, Memin Pinguin was the HERO of the comic book. There was nothing racist about him. He was very much like a mixture of Tom Sawyer with Oliver Twist(except that he had a very loving mother).

In the comic book, he lives in an apartment building with his mom, they are like most mexicans, low-middle class(Not homeless, but definitely not rich.).

HE has many friends in the building, and at school. Obviously, he is notorious because in Mexico there are not many african-american people(I do not remember where do they come from, Memin is Mexican, but his mother speaks with an accent, she is probably cuban, or from the caribbean), but he is considered a good friend. His friends never call him in racist ways, and even when he is sometimes refered as "negrito" in Mexico, that word has no racist connotations(it is the same as "guero" for blonde people, it is a friendly nickname. NO RACIST, it is part of our culture).
As I was saying, Memin has many friends, and they get in trouble as most kids of his age.
Nevertheless, in many times the kids face the harsh reality of adult's world(I remember that in one comic the mother of one f his fiends dies and they have to learn what is like to loose a family member. Memin cares a lot for his frend and tries to cheer him.)
Memin comic book is known for it's family values, in the sense that the kids learn that th efamily is important, for example, Memin's mother adores him, and Memin dreams with growing up, studying hard and becoming rich, in order to take his mother out of work. He wants to take care of his mother when she gets old.

To sumarize, Memin is a comic book plenty of moral values and it is good for the children. Besides, it is one of the oldest comic books in Mexico and is still popular.

I say we go to war with them AGAIN! :mp5: :mp5: :mp5:

Or maybe we give them Texas back if they'll shut up.

1) Americans do not understand Mexican history and culture
2) They don't even try it, they just condemn.
*snip*

You said all this crap in the other thread and I proved it wasn't true.

The objections that the stamp is racist is not coming just from Americans that are ignorant of Mexican history and culture.

See my post above.

Sorry Cat-Tribe, but I don't know in which Mexico does that guy Sergio lives, because it is certainly not the real life Mexico.

I'm Mexican, and here everybody is shocked by the USA's reaction. We find it point-less, exagerated, and blatantly ignorant.

And yes, Speedy is considered racist, but there isno fuss about it because he always beats Silvester.

Sorry Cat-Tribe, but I don't know in which Mexico does that guy Sergio lives, because it is certainly not the real life Mexico.

I'm Mexican, and here everybody is shocked by the USA's reaction. We find it point-less, exagerated, and blatantly ignorant.

And yes, Speedy is considered racist, but there isno fuss about it because he always beats Silvester.

Dr. Velazquez, the National Council of La Raza, and Professor Muñoz are also all blatantly ignorant. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry, but your appeal to authority is fallacious.

This is a quote from the CNN.com article.


However, Penalosa said many Mexicans still assume all blacks are foreigners, despite the fact that at one point early in the Spanish colonial era, Africans outnumbered Spanish in Mexico.

And this is what Schattenreich said.

Obviously, he is notorious because in Mexico there are not many african-american people(I do not remember where do they come from, Memin is Mexican, but his mother speaks with an accent, she is probably cuban, or from the caribbean), but he is considered a good friend.

Sorry Cat-Tribe, but I don't know in which Mexico does that guy Sergio lives, because it is certainly not the real life Mexico.

I'm Mexican, and here everybody is shocked by the USA's reaction. We find it point-less, exagerated, and blatantly ignorant.

And yes, Speedy is considered racist, but there isno fuss about it because he always beats Silvester.

I think Sergio Penalosa is living in the same Mexico you are.

This is a quote from the CNN.com article.


And this is what Schattenreich said.


I think Sergio Penalosa is living in the same Mexico you are.

Nice work. :)

It is also not Mexico is at it again with racism or Mexicans are at it again. It accurately says the Mexican government is at it again with racism.

Nor would it be racist to say Mexico is a racist country. So it the US.



They do. Those of African descent living in both Mexico and the US find it offensive. So do many, including me and the thread author, of those living in Mexico and the US that are not of African descent.

But you appear to say it is racist for us to object to racism. :rolleyes:



Um. The use of Indian mascots is rather hotly debated and criticized here in the US. I oppose it.

Speedy Gonzales I'm not sure is offensive, and I'm not sure I've ever heard a complaint.

The Taco Bell chihuaha is hotly debated and criticized.


MEXICO CITY (AP) - Hundreds of people lined up at Mexico City's main post office on Friday, some waiting hours to buy postage stamps featuring a black comic book character that U.S. leaders have called racist.

The series of five stamps released Wednesday depicts the Memin Pinguin character, a hapless boy drawn with exaggerated features, thick lips and wide-open eyes. His appearance, speech and mannerisms are the subject of kidding by white characters in the comic book, which started in the 1940s and is still published in Mexico.

The stamps have become a symbol of resentment that the United States - where Mexicans have long faced discrimination - would dare to accuse Mexico of racism.

``They're the racists. They're worse than we are, but they just want to belittle us, like always,'' said Cesar Alonso Alvarado, 53, a businessman among the hundreds of people waiting in line to buy stamps. Alvarado said he started reading the comic at age 10, and denies it is racist.

Memin and the artist who draws him, Sixto Valencia, were lionized on Mexican television news programs.

People were also drawn to the post office by reports that full sheets of the 6.50-peso (60-cent) stamps were being offered on the Internet auction site eBay for as much as $200 each or more.

``They're paying $120 for them in the United States,'' said Luis Guillen, 66, when asked why he had bought several sheets. Responding to the accusations of racism, he responded: ``What about all the waiters, and servants, and dumb depictions of blacks in old American movies?''

Mexicans snapped up the stamps at such a rate that all 750,000 sold out Friday, two days after they hit the market.

07/01/05 18:37

© Copyright The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained In this news report may not be published, broadcast or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.


* If Markreich and other people in this forum are truly offended by the stamp, then they should post a thread that asks people if they think the stamp is racist. Had someone done this I would have gladly voted Yes and supported any movement to have the stamp recalled. As it is the U.S. criticims are being made, as Senor Alvarado said, to belittle. As you can see from the article this has acheived the exact opposite of what people interested in improving race relations would like to see happen. Instead of recalling the stamp, Mexicans will use it as a symbol of solidarity and capitalist markets will drive up the price because of the controversy.

Unlike the Spaniards, the British were very efficient in wiping out the Native American population. So, unlike Venezuela where the President is Native American, the indegenous people of the U.S. do not have much of a political voice. they are, in fact, a very small minority, much like the Africans in Mexico.

Now if you want to fight for the rights of Africans in Mexico, I applaud your efforts, but don't you think it's a racist double standard to condemn the Mexican government while ignoring the rights of Natives living in your own country?

Who is ignoring the rights of Native Americans?

I'm not. I've actually worked on a Rez as a Public Defender and worked for the cause of tribal soveriegnty.

I've gone off on the subject of the oppression of Indian in these Forums more than once.

Again, that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore the racism of the Mexican government's recent actions and Fox's recent statements.

You appear to be the one applying a double standard and seeking to distract from the issue with red herrings.

I cannot believe that The Cat Tribe and myself are on the same side of an issue?! I'm going to be marking this down in my book. :D

Who is ignoring the rights of Native Americans?

I'm not. I've actually worked on a Rez as a Public Defender and worked for the cause of tribal soveriegnty.

I've gone off on the subject of the oppression of Indian in these Forums more than once.

Again, that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore the racism of the Mexican government's recent actions and Fox's recent statements.

You appear to be the one applying a double standard and seeking to distract from the issue with red herrings.

Read post 52 please.

*snip*
* If Markreich and other people in this forum are truly offended by the stamp, then they should post a thread that asks people if they think the stamp is racist. Had someone done this I would have gladly voted Yes and supported any movement to have the stamp recalled. As it is the U.S. criticims are being made, as Senor Alvarado said, to belittle. As you can see from the article this has acheived the exact opposite of what people interested in improving race relations would like to see happen. Instead of recalling the stamp, Mexicans will use it as a symbol of solidarity and capitalist markets will drive up the price because of the controversy.

So, because some Mexicans say they stamps aren't racist and resent the criticsim, they are automatically right and it is racist to disagree?

Sergio Pendosa, Dr. Velazquez, the National Council of La Raza, and Professor Muñoz are just seeking to belittle Mexico. Even though Pendosa and Velaquez are Mexicans in Mexico. :rolleyes:

And what about the other articles I cited in post #43 showing that Mexico has a significant racism problem -- but there is less awareness of it among the general populace than here in the U.S.? The racism is more sublimated -- arguably making it more insidious.

If you agree the stamp is racist, why is it wrong for us to say so?

Just to clear a myth of "Native American" rights in the US. These people have more rights than an average Non-native citizen. The have special hunting and fishing rights. They also have gaming rights in many areas. They have special land set asides in many areas. Now we owe them at least that and more i think. But dont think for a second that Native Americans are second class citizens in there homeland.

Just to clear a myth of "Native American" rights in the US. These people have more rights than an average Non-native citizen. The have special hunting and fishing rights. They also have gaming rights in many areas. They have special land set asides in many areas. Now we owe them at least that and more i think. But dont think for a second that Native Americans are second class citizens in there homeland.

Um. There went our agreeing. That is absolute BS.

Indians' have more rights? Because of some of the things they received in treaties in exchange for most of the frickin' country?

Fine. Let's nullify the deals. Take away those special rights and land set asides. And they get the land back. And all the gold and oil found there ....

(I'll start another thread on this subject. Indians are getting f***ed in the U.S.)

So, because some Mexicans say they stamps aren't racist and resent the criticsim, they are automatically right and it is racist to disagree?

Sergio Pendosa, Dr. Velazquez, the National Council of La Raza, and Professor Muñoz are just seeking to belittle Mexico. Even though Pendosa and Velaquez are Mexicans in Mexico. :rolleyes:

And what about the other articles I cited in post #43 showing that Mexico has a significant racism problem -- but there is less awareness of it among the general populace than here in the U.S.? The racism is more sublimated -- arguably making it more insidious.

If you agree the stamp is racist, why is it wrong for us to say so?

Have you been reading my posts or are you being selective for the sake of argument? It is not wrong for you to say so, I myself have said so. My problem is the attitude with which it is said and evidently Mexicans have a problem with this too.

Have you been reading my posts or are you being selective for the sake of argument? It is not wrong for you to say so, I myself have said so. My problem is the attitude with which it is said and evidently Mexicans have a problem with this too.

I been reading your posts. I just disagree with you.

As I explained more than once, you are far from clear about what "attitude[s]" of condemning the stamps are appropriate and inappropriate and why.

People being told that something they do or like is racist almost always resent it. So?

BTW, I might agree with you that the Bush Administration's lecturing was a bit condescending and hypocritical, but we aren't the Bush Administration. And the stamp is racist, as were Fox's recent remarks. As is both Mexican and U.S. culture.

EDIT: BTW, nice job of totally ignoring the points I made in the post to which you "responded." :rolleyes:

As this article points out. This follows some off colored remarks by Fox the president of Mexico about African Americans. The Mexican post office not to be out done by el presidente does this :

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/06/29/mexico.stamp.ap/index.html
I heard about this a little while ago. The cartoon is racist but Mexicans (including black Mexicans) aren't as sensitive to the subject as Americans are. Reading several sites in Spanish, I learned that there was one edition of Memin Pinguin where Memin was recieving his first Communion, and another boy told Memin that it was pointless, because black people always go to hell, which is why there are no black angels.

But I don't believe the cartoonists were racist, because the writer, Yolanda Vargas Dulché, was "fascinated" by black children after working in Cuba. And the cartoon was designed for children, sort of their version of Barney. It also isn't racist, in that many of Memin's friends are upper-class, whites and hispanics. But they do stereotype Memin as being ape-like, low class, violent, criminal, and a poor student.

To dispute the fact that the cartoon is completely racist, I refer you to this edition of Memin Penguin:
http://www.mundovid.com/img_prod/memin169g.jpg

The text translated means "A Sincere Affection."

That's why the Mexican President said that the comic was the opposite of racism. Because though it portrayed blacks in stereotypical roles, it also portrayed them as being friendly and loved by non-blacks. So, though the characterization was grossly immoral and printing these stamps was poor taste, people are overreacting a bit, because they know nothing about the comic and can't read Spanish. And, the truth is, this comic does not portray blacks any more stereotypically, than Bill Cosby's "Fat Albert", which no one considers racist, despite the fact that the characters' features are exaggerated and they're all poor.

Michigan State University also keeps copies of the comic in their library:
http://www.lib.msu.edu/comics/rri/mrri/mexicanm.htm

One important thing to note, also, is that it was the White House who sparked this debate. And it stinks of Karl Rove. Criticizing Mexico of being racist is a way of encouraging harsher immigration laws and justifying anti-Mexican racism. President Bush doesn't even read the newspaper. You honestly expect me to believe he keeps up-to-date on foreign postage? No, it's merely a Republican political diversion. Possibly to also gain greater Republican support from blacks, since they've spat in their faces over voting fraud, ignoring the NAACP, and then sending the I.R.S. after them.

I been reading your posts. I just disagree with you.

As I explained more than once, you are far from clear about what "attitude[s]" of condemning the stamps are appropriate and inappropriate and why.

People being told that something they do or like is racist almost always resent it. So?

BTW, I might agree with you that the Bush Administration's lecturing was a bit condescending and hypocritical, but we aren't the Bush Administration. And the stamp is racist, as were Fox's recent remarks. As is both Mexican and U.S. culture.

EDIT: BTW, nice job of totally ignoring the points I made in the post to which you "responded." :rolleyes:

Maybe I was distracted by your rolling eyes...

If you agree that the Bush administration's lecturing was condescending and hypocritical then why do you disagree when I make the same observation about this thread?

Um. There went our agreeing. That is absolute BS.

Indians' have more rights? Because of some of the things they received in treaties in exchange for most of the frickin' country?

Fine. Let's nullify the deals. Take away those special rights and land set asides. And they get the land back. And all the gold and oil found there ....

(I'll start another thread on this subject. Indians are getting f***ed in the U.S.)

LOL didnt last for long eh cat. But fact is the Natives today are not the natives of yesterday. Neither am I one that took the land away from them. The last fact is that the Native Americans do have more rights than I do. It is a fact that cant be overlooked.

LOL didnt last for long eh cat. But fact is the Natives today are not the natives of yesterday. Neither am I one that took the land away from them. The last fact is that the Native Americans do have more rights than I do. It is a fact that cant be overlooked.
more technical rights, but other than that no. then again, all of them keeping to themselves and staying on reservations their entire lives isn't helping community relations

Ihatevacations']more technical rights, but other than that no. then again, all of them keeping to themselves and staying on reservations their entire lives isn't helping community relations

Yes very true. But technically speaking... Anyway I hope that Cat does post about natives. Then we can get a real discussion going. Fur is going to fly! :p

Maybe I was distracted by your rolling eyes...

If you agree that the Bush administration's lecturing was condescending and hypocritical then why do you disagree when I make the same observation about this thread?

Still ignoring most of my points.

As to your question, I already answered several posts ago: what the Bush Administration said was condescending and hypocritical, BUT WE AREN'T THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION.

More specifically, the author of this thread is not the Bush Administration. He is not personally responsible for racist policies or inadequate responses to racism in the US -- the Bush Administration is. His specific wording of the thread was not condescending in the way I think the Bush Administration's statements were.

You agree that the stamp is racist. You have yet to explain why calling the publishing of it to be another racist mistake by the Mexican government is improper. It appears self-evidently accurate and proper.

Your attitude appears to simply be that unless we are of African descent or live in Mexico, we should keep silent so as not to offend Mexicans who don't want the racism pointed out to them.

That is simply wrong. Silence would not solve the racism.

Yes very true. But technically speaking... Anyway I hope that Cat does post about natives. Then we can get a real discussion going. Fur is going to fly! :p

I will do a separate thread later, but tonight I'm going to bed.

Nonetheless ...

LOL didnt last for long eh cat. But fact is the Natives today are not the natives of yesterday. Neither am I one that took the land away from them. The last fact is that the Native Americans do have more rights than I do. It is a fact that cant be overlooked.

You are governed by the Constitution and laws of the land, including treaties. The property rights to much of the land in this country (and oil and mineral rights) are based on treaties the U.S. Government made with the Indian Tribes. We have unilaterally violated much of those treaties, but some scraps of the original deals are what you refer to as the "special rights" of the tribal members. I do not know if it is true of where you live, but most Americans live in land that is purchased by those rights. You cannot say you inherit the right to the land, but Indians do not inherit the hunting and fishing rights or the small bits of land on the Reservations.

Regardless, the idea that Indians are privileged is a Looking Glass absurdity. Native American's are systematically disadvantaged. See, e.g.[/I], Life on a Reservation (http://www.oprah.com/uyl/angel/uyl_angel_20020211_reservation.jhtml); Native American Youth (http://www.buildingblocksforyouth.org/issues/nativeyouth/facts.html); Reservation Life Worse Than Iraq? (http://www.fcnl.org/act_nalu_curnt/indian_0317_05.htm); A Quiet Crisis (http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/na0703/na0204.pdf)

Setting aside the history, here are some nice facts about current life as a American Indian/Alaskan Native from the US Surgeon General and the US Census:

In 1999, about 26% of AI/ANs lived in poverty, compared to 13% for the United States as a whole and 8% of white Americans.


In 1995, the median household income in the US was $30,056. For AI/AN it was $19,900.


In 1980, only 56% of AI/ANs 25-years-old and over had graduated from high school. By 1990, this percentage had increased to 66%, but it was still below the 75% rate for the Nation as a whole.


In 1998, AI/AN men and women were roughly twice as likely as whites to be unemployed.


The prevalence rate of suicide for AI/ANs is 1.5 times the national rate.


Violent deaths – unintentional injuries, homicide, and suicide – account for 75% of all mortality in the second decade of life for AI/ANs.


While representing less than 2% of the U.S. population, it is estimated that AI/ANs constitute 8% of Americans who are homeless.


In 1997, an estimated 1 out of every 25 AI/AN adults were in the criminal justice system. A 1998 study found that 1 out of every 2 adolescents in a Northern Plains reservation juvenile detention facility had a substance abuse or mental health disorder. Many of these youth had multiple disorders.


Prevalence rates for current alcohol abuse and/or dependence among Northern Plains and Southwestern Vietnam veterans have been estimated to be as high as 70% compared to 11 - 32% of their white, black, and Japanese American counterparts. The estimated rate of alcohol-related deaths for AI/ANs as a whole is much higher than it is for the general population


The rate of violent victimization of AI/ANs is more than twice the national average. The higher rate of traumatic exposure results in a 22% rate of PTSD for AI/ANs, compared to 8% in the general U.S. population.


Until 1978 when Congress passed the Indian Child Welfare Act to end "a pattern of discrimination against American Indians," an estimated 25 to 30% of AI/AN children had been removed from their families.

Clicky (http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:t7q5dmILl9gJ:www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/mentalhealth/cre/fact4.asp+native+american+factsheet&hl=en) and clicky (http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/race/indian/ailang2.txt)

Still ignoring most of my points.

As to your question, I already answered several posts ago: what the Bush Administration said was condescending and hypocritical, BUT WE AREN'T THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION.

Obviously, but several people who have voiced their opinions in this thread reflect and support the Administration's position.

More specifically, the author of this thread is not the Bush Administration. He is not personally responsible for racist policies or inadequate responses to racism in the US -- the Bush Administration is. His specific wording of the thread was not condescending in the way I think the Bush Administration's statements were.

"Mexican government is at it again with racism", I find this condescending. If I posted a link to an article that described U.S. soldiers smuggling cocaine from Colombia into the U.S. and titled the thread; "U.S. Military dealing drugs again" are you saying your fellow USians wouldn't find it condescending?

You agree that the stamp is racist. You have yet to explain why calling the publishing of it to be another racist mistake by the Mexican government is improper. It appears self-evidently accurate and proper.

See post 52 of this thread.

Your attitude appears to simply be that unless we are of African descent or live in Mexico, we should keep silent so as not to offend Mexicans who don't want the racism pointed out to them.

See post 52 of this thread.

That is simply wrong. Silence would not solve the racism.

And yet the approach many of the members of this forum, who would prefer that I remain silent while they continue to bash Mexico, has hardly done anything to resolve the issue. Had the U.S. government and the U.S. media tried to reason with the Mexican people, explaining why they found the stamp offensive the Mexican people themselves might have boycotted the stamp. Instead they charged the Mexican government as being racist which resulted in the stamp being sold out two days after it was released and the value of the stamp increasing exponentially on the U.S. market. Is this the outcome you prefer?