NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, so it's getting close to the time when Sharon will have to clear out the Israeli settlements in Gaza. Some settlers will be using civil disobedience to try to hold their territory. What do you folks think will happen when the Israeli army shows up to move the settlers out?

Its already gotten underway. About damn time too. Get the extremists who are f-ing up the peace process out of there. Enough Israeli soldiers have died trying to protect these ungrateful gits. Get 'em out ASAP in my opinion.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-13378908,00.html

Slashing tires, burning tires on the motorway, throwing stones at the IDF soldiers who have protected them. No way to behave, and I'm glad to see them gone.

On that note, should civil war break out, I'll warn y'all in advance and probably need to leave NS for a while :S

Ok, so it's getting close to the time when Sharon will have to clear out the Israeli settlements in Gaza. Some settlers will be using civil disobedience to try to hold their territory. What do you folks think will happen when the Israeli army shows up to move the settlers out?
I think some of the settlers will actually resist violently. I'm hoping against hope that the IDF quelling that sort of violence will help dispell the image of the IDF as racists who only kill Palestinians because they're Palestinians that so much of the world regrettably has.

Its already gotten underway. About damn time too. Get the extremists who are f-ing up the peace process out of there. Enough Israeli soldiers have died trying to protect these ungrateful gits. Get 'em out ASAP in my opinion.
Damn straight! Extremism is unnaceptable, even if they're of my religion.

I think some of the settlers will actually resist violently. I'm hoping against hope that the IDF quelling that sort of violence will help dispell the image of the IDF as racists who only kill Palestinians because they're Palestinians that so much of the world regrettably has.
From the pictures I've seen on Sky News, they are carrying them out forcefully. Good thing.

Typical, when an Israel debate comes up, everyone takes the chance to bash Israel. Israel does something good by everyones standards and nobody's interested.

Typical, when an Israel debate comes up, everyone takes the chance to bash Israel. Israel does something good by everyones standards and nobody's interested.

Sanct'. Why do they need to be forcefully removed? Take this as a question from a position of ignorance. Surely if they want to stay there at risk to themselves, is that not their perrogative? or is there more to it than that? I suspect there is.

Typical, when an Israel debate comes up, everyone takes the chance to bash Israel. Israel does something good by everyones standards and nobody's interested.
You'll never catch me bashing Israel. Israel is the only respectable nation in it's region.

Sanct'. Why do they need to be forcefully removed? Take this as a question from a position of ignorance. Surely if they want to stay there at risk to themselves, is that not their perrogative? or is there more to it than that? I suspect there is.
May I answer this one?

Sharon's plan for peace in Israel requires that Gaza be given back to the palestinians. Isralei settlers in Gaza don't want to give up the land they've built their communities on. That's the problem. Sharon's trying to appease the palestinians by giving them more land to build a stable palestinian state, the settlers don't want to give up their homes to make that happen.

Typical, when an Israel debate comes up, everyone takes the chance to bash Israel. Israel does something good by everyones standards and nobody's interested.

Clocked in at: exactly 45 minutes into the thread, with 6 posts written.

Just FYI.

Btw, I'm impressed. Let's hope all goes smoothly.

DC, there's more to it than that. In the Torah, G-D promises Israel in its entirety to the Jews, and to the religious, thats enough. They don't care how many IDF soldiers have died, or how many civilians have died. They only care about a complete Israel, and giving away Gaza is not the steps they'd like taken.
As to why they don't stay there, after '67, the army encouraged people to move there, now that they're giving it away, they need to look after those people, they can't just leave them there. Especially because it would create a mass war in Gaza, but also because Israel has a commitment to them. Shame really, I think what you suggested is best.

May I answer this one?

Sharon's plan for peace in Israel requires that Gaza be given back to the palestinians. Isralei settlers in Gaza don't want to give up the land they've built their communities on. That's the problem. Sharon's trying to appease the palestinians by giving them more land to build a stable palestinian state, the settlers don't want to give up their homes to make that happen.

Thank you DC.

Clocked in at: exactly 45 minutes into the thread, with 6 posts written.

Just FYI.

Btw, I'm impressed. Let's hope all goes smoothly.
Find the last Israel debate, let me know how many posts were made after 45 minutes. Also, out of those six, barring one, the thread start, all were by me or Deleuze.

And thanks, whilst chances are slim, we live in hope :p

DC, there's more to it than that. In the Torah, G-D promises Israel in its entirety to the Jews, and to the religious, thats enough. They don't care how many IDF soldiers have died, or how many civilians have died. They only care about a complete Israel, and giving away Gaza is not the steps they'd like taken.
As to why they don't stay there, after '67, the army encouraged people to move there, now that they're giving it away, they need to look after those people, they can't just leave them there. Especially because it would create a mass war in Gaza, but also because Israel has a commitment to them. Shame really, I think what you suggested is best.

oh, I see... very complex indeed.
I hope it goes smoothly, Israel and Palestine have seen enough needless violence to last most nations an existence already.

DC, there's more to it than that. In the Torah, G-D promises Israel in its entirety to the Jews, and to the religious, thats enough. They don't care how many IDF soldiers have died, or how many civilians have died. They only care about a complete Israel, and giving away Gaza is not the steps they'd like taken.
As to why they don't stay there, after '67, the army encouraged people to move there, now that they're giving it away, they need to look after those people, they can't just leave them there. Especially because it would create a mass war in Gaza, but also because Israel has a commitment to them. Shame really, I think what you suggested is best.Yeah, you're right, but I tend to ignore the religious aspect because I'm an atheist.

oh, I see... very complex indeed.
I hope it goes smoothly, Israel and Palestine have seen enough needless violence to last most nations an existence already.
Well we still have another fifty or so years before we get to England and France's level in just one war :p

Yeah, you're right, but I tend to ignore the religious aspect because I'm an atheist.
Really? Most of the atheists I know like to harp on religious conflicts to point out why they think religion is stupid.

Yeah, you're right, but I tend to ignore the religious aspect because I'm an atheist.
I tend to ignore the religious aspect, and I'm Jewish. Thats the lamest excuse to keep land ever.

Really? Most of the atheists I know like to harp on religious conflicts to point out why they think religion is stupid.
Maybe I think it's so stupid it's not worth commenting on. ;)

Maybe I think it's so stupid it's not worth commenting on. ;)
Oooooh. Tricky.

On that note, should civil war break out, I'll warn y'all in advance and probably need to leave NS for a while :S
Well, you could always come and hide under my bed here in Ramat Gan. I'll let you use my internet too ;)

Seriously, though, there's no reason to worry about civil war. A handful of thugs, half of whom don't even live in Gush Katif themselves, is not enough to do any real damage. I am more worried about them committing mass suicide "to make a statement" than I am about them opening fire on IDF troops.

Ok, so it's getting close to the time when Sharon will have to clear out the Israeli settlements in Gaza. Some settlers will be using civil disobedience to try to hold their territory. What do you folks think will happen when the Israeli army shows up to move the settlers out?

Israeli Civil War!

Its already gotten underway. About damn time too. Get the extremists who are f-ing up the peace process out of there. Enough Israeli soldiers have died trying to protect these ungrateful gits. Get 'em out ASAP in my opinion.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-13378908,00.html

Slashing tires, burning tires on the motorway, throwing stones at the IDF soldiers who have protected them. No way to behave, and I'm glad to see them gone.

On that note, should civil war break out, I'll warn y'all in advance and probably need to leave NS for a while :S

I'll miss you Santaphrax!

*hands you a cookie just in case*

Thanks for the optimism mate ;)


Holy Womble, I'm glad you seem so confident, especially with the pictures of settlers throwing stones at IDF soldiers. Now take those soldiers who refused to help the disengagement, and assume thats more settlers with guns. I have full confidence in the IDF, but two enemies who aren't even working together (Hamas/Al Aqsa on one side, with the settlers on another) could prove a little tricky.
Besides, the amount of orange ribbons I've seen on cars here, scares me. If each of them would take the side of the settlers, we'd be outnumbered about 5-1 :p


But I'll take you up on that offer, if we'll still be in the country should this hypothetical civil war break out, in which case I invite you to hide under my bed in our flat in London, you can use my internet too :p

Thanks for the optimism mate ;)


Holy Womble, I'm glad you seem so confident, especially with the pictures of settlers throwing stones at IDF soldiers. Now take those soldiers who refused to help the disengagement, and assume thats more settlers with guns. I have full confidence in the IDF, but two enemies who aren't even working together (Hamas/Al Aqsa on one side, with the settlers on another) could prove a little tricky.
I think its way too silly to equate the settlers with Hamas, in ANY capacity.

Here's the way I see it. About half the Gaza settlers are secular, and won't be making much trouble, even though they grew up in those houses and on that land. Most of the religious settlers may engage in some sort of non-violent disobedience (like climbing onto roofs and barricading themselves inside houses), but violence is just as unlikely as it was during the evacuation of Yamit. The troublemakers are the same usual suspects- the Kach crowd- and there simply isn't enough of them to make any kind of difference in the big picture.


Besides, the amount of orange ribbons I've seen on cars here, scares me. If each of them would take the side of the settlers, we'd be outnumbered about 5-1 :p
That's only because there are ten times more people out there handing out orange ribbons than blue ones. The settlers have mastered the PR work.


But I'll take you up on that offer, if we'll still be in the country should this hypothetical civil war break out, in which case I invite you to hide under my bed in our flat in London, you can use my internet too :p

You can take me up on that offer even without the war breaking out if you wish :P

Here's the way I see it. About half the Gaza settlers are secular, and won't be making much trouble, even though they grew up in those houses and on that land.
Its not only the religious ones causing trouble. Some of the secular ones feel they're getting screwed by the government, not getting enough money etc... Not saying they'll cause problems, but they might.

Most of the religious settlers may engage in some sort of non-violent disobedience (like climbing onto roofs and barricading themselves inside houses), but violence is just as unlikely as it was during the evacuation of Yamit. The troublemakers are the same usual suspects- the Kach crowd- and there simply isn't enough of them to make any kind of difference in the big picture.
Now remind me, Yamit was where the non-violent settlers climbed onto the roof.... then tipped paint over the soldiers beneath them right?
And in all fairness, they did a pretty good job of stopping up nearly all of Israel's roads today. Either they travel at the speed of light, or there are still enough to cause some serious trouble. Plus don't forget the sects abroad, who if told to come here to fight for Israel, will do so. Now they won't even come close to the IDF at full power, but enough to cause some serious discomfort. Some civil wars have not been two organised armies, but a guerilla army. I could well see the settlers engaging in that kind of stuff.


That's only because there are ten times more people out there handing out orange ribbons than blue ones. The settlers have mastered the PR work.
:eek:
Yees, not sure how many PR advisers have ever advised you to burn tires in the middle of the main roads and junctions of Israel. Should recommend it to them :p



You can take me up on that offer even without the war breaking out if you wish :P
I'll keep that in mind ;)

(also, you have a TG)

Its not only the religious ones causing trouble. Some of the secular ones feel they're getting screwed by the government, not getting enough money etc... Not saying they'll cause problems, but they might.
Not to the point of shooting at soldiers.



Now remind me, Yamit was where the non-violent settlers climbed onto the roof.... then tipped paint over the soldiers beneath them right?
Yep. But not a single shot was fired... was there?


And in all fairness, they did a pretty good job of stopping up nearly all of Israel's roads today. Either they travel at the speed of light, or there are still enough to cause some serious trouble. Plus don't forget the sects abroad, who if told to come here to fight for Israel, will do so. Now they won't even come close to the IDF at full power, but enough to cause some serious discomfort. Some civil wars have not been two organised armies, but a guerilla army. I could well see the settlers engaging in that kind of stuff.
Oh come on. Blocking roads is far from guerilla warfare. In fact, blocking roads is one of the setter movement's non-violent tactics of choice (remember Zo Artzeinu?). Of course they can recruit more support for this kind of action than for any kind of violent protest.


:eek:
Yees, not sure how many PR advisers have ever advised you to burn tires in the middle of the main roads and junctions of Israel. Should recommend it to them :p
I've seen reports that they've hired some of the better PR professionals in the country. The Russian immigrant channel RTVI had an interview with one of them a few months ago.

Tire burning, btw, is also nothing new, they are simply borrowing the protest tactics from abroad.

1) No, but enough to cause some serious discomfort :p

2) No, but it still wasn't very nice of them. And kinda uncomfortable once it sets I assume. Plus I believe paint isn't good for you. :D

3) Well of course not, they've had no need for it yet. All it'll take is one exceptionally lunatic rabbi to declare war in the name of a complete Israel, and watch what happens.

4) Do you have any sympathy for them? I think they've lost more friends than they've earnt through their tactics.

I think that if God knew what dickheads people could be over a little crust of dirt, he wouldn't have promised anybody anything.

I think that if God knew what dickheads people could be over a little crust of dirt, he wouldn't have promised anybody anything.
People will always be dickheads, and they'll always find something to argue about. G-D just gave them a good excuse to do so. :p

Besides, the amount of orange ribbons I've seen on cars here, scares me. If each of them would take the side of the settlers, we'd be outnumbered about 5-1 :p


A simple, albeit politically suicidal option would be to pull back the IDF lines to the agreed areas, abandoning stubborn ones to the Palestineans while creating a new fortified border. No troops to go beyond that line, no support either. In effect, this would cut off the settlers.

Without army support, it is most likely that the settlers would be driven out by the Hamas looking for easy pickings.

Simple, less blood spilt by your hands, but politically suicidal.

One of the extremist settlers in Gaza said of the IDF and their forced evictions "They would not treat Arabs (referring to Palestinians) in this way"

Well they have.

I doubt there will be Bulldozers demolishing houses with the people standing outside them or still in them however, or peaceful protestors and reporters being bulldozed to death or being shot.

I completely support the move and give Israel credit for moving ahead with it. I have sympathy for the settlers. Essentially the Gov. used them as the front line in their invasion of other peoples’ land, similar to what the US Gov. did with the native Americans and the expansion west. The settlers were encouraged to move, have braved risks by staying, and vested a great deal in their homes. They have a right to be pissed. I feel the Israeli government deserves great praise for the planned withdrawal. I also think they should be ashamed of themselves for their expansionist promotion of settlements in areas outside the legal borders of their nation.

Every nation has done things that were good and things that were bad. Israel is taking steps to correct a past mistake. Good for them. :)

<snip the crap>
Oy vey. THIS IS NOT AN ISRAEL BASHING THREAD!
There are plenty of them already. This has nothing to do with the thread, kindly take your blind hatred of anything Israel does out of here.

A simple, albeit politically suicidal option would be to pull back the IDF lines to the agreed areas, abandoning stubborn ones to the Palestineans while creating a new fortified border. No troops to go beyond that line, no support either. In effect, this would cut off the settlers.

Without army support, it is most likely that the settlers would be driven out by the Hamas looking for easy pickings.

Simple, less blood spilt by your hands, but politically suicidal.
I completely agree with you, but like Murkiness said, and me in a few posts before that. We encouraged them to move in, therefore we can't now leave them there unfortunately.

I completely agree with you, but like Murkiness said, and me in a few posts before that. We encouraged them to move in, therefore we can't now leave them there unfortunately.

You just have to be cold blooded enough to do it. And given the past precedents of people being encouraged to do something only to be left without support later, I do not see why the Isreali government would worry overmuch should the settlers prove to be too intractable. Declare them to be obstructionists or perhaps accuse them of being terrorist sympthatizers or some such charge that can be made to stick. Control over the media is important. When that happens, declare the abandoned areas no-mans land. Anything that happens there would then be Palestinean business, not the IDF's nor Isreals.

Of course there is that whole re-election thing, but isn't this Aerial Sharon's (sp?) last term?

In this particular case, the use of the Isreali Wall would be effective. It was a good idea, but its placement reflected the kind of thinking you get by combining beer, a map and throwing darts. Re-direct this wall to seal up the agreed areas and focus IDF strength of border patrols within the new area rather than the occassional raid.

The intractable settlers will make excellent decoys for the local extremists, giving the IDF breathing room to consolidate and reinforce the new positions. Undoubtedly, they will hold out for a little while, but without army support, I suspect they will be rooted out soon enough.

In this case, Hamas would be working for the IDF, doing their jobs. What a novel concept.