NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15739502-13762,00.html

I'm really surprised that this news hasn't been around more because to me it seems like it has much tougher ethical issues than stem cells, cloning, etc.

When a human volunteers to do this, what happens when the human is 'dead'. If nothing happens (like being under a general anesthetic) does that mean there is no afterlife of any kind? If we go to the 'afterlife', could we use this to go visit dead friends and relatives for a few hours? Or maybe just fly around with out 'spirit'? Or we could go spy on people as a ghost :)? Creepy.

Technically though, the neurons must not die while something is suspended, so maybe it truly is a suspension instead of a death?

Technically though, the neurons must not die while something is suspended, so maybe it truly is a suspension instead of a death?

Exactly. This is basically inducing severe hypothermia and hypoxia to put an animal into a hibernation-like state.

Of course, even if it were true death and one could be brought back, wouldn't it make sense to assume that God would know when you were dying for good, so that you couldn't just hop around in the afterlife until you were really supposed to go for good?

What's the big deal of always trying to mix religion and science, anyway?

If you can reanimate somebody, then HE IS NOT DEAD yet.

According to Roger Penrose, our brain exists in a state of constant activity, with some kind of a "conscience loop" running all the time in background. This loop, or wave of electrical activity, is what causes consciousness and what makes the brain actually work. Think of it as the brain's operating system (in computer terms).

Once you have killed the conscience loop, you can't possibly revive somebody, because the brain is basically impossible to "reboot". We're much more than machines: we have a "conscience program" running in our brain. According to Penrose, qantum phenomena are involved in the working of this program.

So whatever chemicals or electric shocks you apply on/in a dead person's body, you just can't get the brain to restart. Because a brain CANNOT be restarted if it has lost its conscience program. (Think of it as a computer whose operating system was erased from the hard disk.)

This approach isn't incompatible with ideas about the afterlife. Just replace "conscience loop" with "soul".

Experiences in near-death and "revival" involve either a very short period of flat brain waves (which doesn't mean the brain's "basic system" has stopped), stopped heartbeat, or slowed down metabolism. Nothing close to real death.

The link, as provided, doesn't work. However, I've found an alternative (http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/regional/s_348517.html).

Safar, who died two years ago, proposed flushing the circulatory system with an ice-cold salt solution, which would drop the core body temperature to about 50 degrees compared to the usual 98.6 degrees.

Cooling the body in this way would buy extra time to transport injured soldiers or trauma victims in cardiac arrest to the hospital, Safar reasoned. The cold temperature would have a preserving effect so no damage would occur to tissues and organs, even though the heart would be stopped.

"The idea is to preserve the victim for just a little while in this state called suspended animation so the surgeons can locate bleeding sites and make the necessary repairs," Kochanek said.

Personally, this sounds like good news to me.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15739502-13762,00.html

I'm really surprised that this news hasn't been around more because to me it seems like it has much tougher ethical issues than stem cells, cloning, etc.
?

I actually saw the doctor who came up with this scheme on television a month or two ago. Brilliant notion. Should save a lot of lives.

Yes, if the afterlife is disproved, sure it sucks, but at least we will finally be rid of the Religious Right (or Wrong?). It's a win-win situation.

And think about it. We could be on the eve of the greatest social change ever. If the afterlife is disproved, religion is refuted and that will force many of us to rethink everything we ever thought.

Yes, if the afterlife is disproved, sure it sucks, but at least we will finally be rid of the Religious Right (or Wrong?). It's a win-win situation.I fail to see how this would disprove the afterlife as the test animals were only clinically dead. While the article does give the definition of "clinical death" as including a cessation of brain activity, I do have to wonder how brain activity is measured. Measuring devices are not prefect; just because someone is dead as best as we can measure may not mean that they're actually dead.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

Link still works for me but you can find a bunch of articles/discussion with a 'zombie dog' search.

Uh no, I dont think 'God', whichever one(s) it may be, have anything to do on deciding when we are dead. That decision is made up by the rules/physics of the universe we live in.

At any rate, I still find it a very odd thing, and hopefully I am still around when they try this on humans. I wonder if anyone would actually volunteer for this...

Wow! Last I knew they were still experimenting with rats. If it's possible to pull this up on humans (and having done it in dogs I don't see why not) it will revolutionize medicine and open up a lot of possibilities. You know what I'm thinking about... space exploration, anyone?

Wow! Last I knew they were still experimenting with rats. If it's possible to pull this up on humans (and having done it in dogs I don't see why not) it will revolutionize medicine and open up a lot of possibilities. You know what I'm thinking about... space exploration, anyone?
If you mean high gee ships, the body would still suffer the same physical effects as a normal one. If you mean hibernation, then theres no way you're putting me in that tank mister! I saw 2001 :p Besides, zero gee would be too much fun ;)

There is this scientist put a chip into his forearm, connected to his nerve endings, which bluetoothed the nerve signals to a robotic arm on his desk. When he moved his arm, the robo-arm moved as well. The ultimate executive toy!!!

If you mean high gee ships, the body would still suffer the same physical effects as a normal one. If you mean hibernation, then theres no way you're putting me in that tank mister! I saw 2001 :p Besides, zero gee would be too much fun ;)

No, on the contrary. I mean slow ships that would take years or millenia to get to another place. Of course, if the body can be maintained that long and they develop an automatic reanimation procedure. That would still be many years in the future, though.

Don't worry about the tank. We'll wait for you to go to sleep, you'll just wake up in Rigel 5, you won't know what happened. Hehehe!


There is this scientist put a chip into his forearm, connected to his nerve endings, which bluetoothed the nerve signals to a robotic arm on his desk. When he moved his arm, the robo-arm moved as well. The ultimate executive toy!!!
They also developed a helmet that drives connections into a monkey's brain and allows him to control a videogame. At first the monkey moved his arms, like he was trained to do before being fitted with the helmet, but then his brain adapted and formed new neural networks and he can play the game without moving his arms. Like having new appendages. They're working on getting the signals from the brain without having to drill holes.

In another experiment, a bunch of brain cells were cultured inside a Petri dish and connected to a flight simulator. After some time, the cells "learned" how to keep the plane flying straight and level and adapt to changing weather and other conditions. And much cheaper than building any kind of computer.

They also developed a helmet that drives connections into a monkey's brain and allows him to control a videogame. At first the monkey moved his arms, like he was trained to do before being fitted with the helmet, but then his brain adapted and formed new neural networks and he can play the game without moving his arms. Like having new appendages. They're working on getting the signals from the brain without having to drill holes.

In another experiment, a bunch of brain cells were cultured inside a Petri dish and connected to a flight simulator. After some time, the cells "learned" how to keep the plane flying straight and level and adapt to changing weather and other conditions. And much cheaper than building any kind of computer.Fascinating.

Would you happen to have links to sources for either of these?

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

The soul and the mind are two seperate entities. The soul is the spiritual manifestation of the Self, while the mind is the physical manifestation of it. As Letila so aptly displayed, many humanists and atheists wish that a lack of an afterlife were the case, but this does nothing to disprove it.

Fascinating.

Would you happen to have links to sources for either of these?

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

Yes, I'd like to see links as well.


...frankly, Biotech scares me silly.

Fascinating.

Would you happen to have links to sources for either of these?

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2000/monkeys-1206.html

googled:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/11/02/brain.dish/

So much information to digest.

Exactly. This is basically inducing severe hypothermia and hypoxia to put an animal into a hibernation-like state.

Of course, even if it were true death and one could be brought back, wouldn't it make sense to assume that God would know when you were dying for good, so that you couldn't just hop around in the afterlife until you were really supposed to go for good?
Who doesn't love circular reasoning

I especially like the way that article uses a picture of a feral snarling wolf to illustrate the zombie dog brought back to strip the flesh off the living.

I guess a sleeping zombie Shar-Pei wouldn't convey the same emotion...

I especially like the way that article uses a picture of a feral snarling wolf to illustrate the zombie dog brought back to strip the flesh off the living.

I guess a sleeping zombie Shar-Pei wouldn't convey the same emotion...

Wha? That *is* the Shar-Pei.


We all know what happens to dogs when brought back from the dead. C'mon. Get with the program. :rolleyes: :p

Fascinating.

Would you happen to have links to sources for either of these?

Yes I do. Sorry I didn't cough them up before, but being at work I didn't have them handy.

Here are the news reports:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A17434-2003Oct12?language=printer
http://www.napa.ufl.edu/2004news/braindish.htm

you can really only die once. after death, the brain is no longer capable of functioning. all this really does is extend life by preserving the functionality of the body, including the brain. so it doesnt really disprove an afterlife. as to who it would be tested on, i'm sure some soldiers would be more than happy to let it be tested on them after being shot. at least, if a blood transfusion isn't immediately possible. heck, if it buys a few extra hours then there isnt any reason not to try it. i havent really looked into this, but it could present a cure for a severe/fatal blood disease too. it offers a way to replace blood. you suck out diseased blood, pump in some saline. then you call up the red cross and have them bring a couple pints. wonder if that'd work?

According to Roger Penrose, our brain exists in a state of constant activity, with some kind of a "conscience loop" running all the time in background. This loop, or wave of electrical activity, is what causes consciousness and what makes the brain actually work. Think of it as the brain's operating system (in computer terms).
Once you have killed the conscience loop, you can't possibly revive somebody, because the brain is basically impossible to "reboot".

Then I guess all those people who've had electroshock therapy must actually be zombies. Can't see this "wave of electrical activity" surviving 50,000 volts.