NationStates Jolt Archive

I dont think quebec can survive without canada

I dont think quebec can survive without canada

And likewise, Canada can't survive without Quebec.

Err....scratch that.

And likewise, Canada can't survive without Quebec.

Err....scratch that.

or both

Good; once less mouth for Ontario to feed! :D

It would be like Texas separating from the United States. Yeah, they each have their own language (:p), but seriously...

If they separated would they just become their own country? Because we don’t want them and I don’ think they want to be the 51st states. In fact, I’m sure most of them would rather die first.

Their economy would be a mess. Ours...not so much.

I dont think quebec can survive without canada
Ouch. Don't get me started on this.

An independent Quebec would be the WORLD'S 15th ECONOMIC POWER.
(And if we take the GDP, it would be 20th.)

Quebec's economy would be comparable to that of countries such as Norway or Sweden.

Numerous studies were made on the subject. Remember, we had a separatist government half of the time for the last 25 years. So there was a political will to ask the questions and get the answers. Even if the answers were not always 100% positive. Some serious economists and lawmakers had plenty of time to study the subject.

Quebec is a major electricity producer; since it uses mainly hydro-electricity, this revenue source won't vanish tomorrow morning. And there are plenty of rivers available still.

QUEBEC'S INDUSTRY in Canada...
50% of Canada's IT companies
50% of Canadian plane parts and aerospace/satellite parts, research
45% of its pharmaceutical research and production.
40% of its biotech
38% of Canada's exports in high technologies

Not to mention newly-found diamond deposits in the north and other natural resources.

Quebec has definitely the economic power to be independent. What lacks is a strong enough will by the population. After all, we haven't been persecuted in the last century (only before).

Ouch. Don't get me started on this.

An independent Quebec would be the WORLD'S 15th ECONOMIC POWER.
(And if we take the GDP, it would be 20th.)

Quebec's economy would be comparable to that of countries such as Norway or Sweden.

Numerous studies were made on the subject. Remember, we had a separatist government half of the time for the last 25 years. So there was a political will to ask the questions and get the answers. Even if the answers were not always 100% positive. Some serious economists and lawmakers had plenty of time to study the subject.

Quebec is a major electricity producer; since it uses mainly hydro-electricity, this revenue source won't vanish tomorrow morning. And there are plenty of rivers available still.

QUEBEC'S INDUSTRY in Canada...
50% of Canada's IT companies
50% of Canadian plane parts and aerospace/satellite parts, research
45% of its pharmaceutical research and production.
40% of its biotech
38% of Canada's exports in high technologies

Not to mention newly-found diamond deposits in the north and other natural resources.

Quebec has definitely the economic power to be independent. What lacks is a strong enough will by the population. After all, we haven't been persecuted in the last century (only before).

I wish i live in quebec, only if i can speak french

No! I just barely discovered Belize was a country in North America!

Don't make me and all other poor American kids be forced to learn another country!

Umm,
Greenland (owned by Denmark)
Canada
U.S.A.
Mexico
Belize
Mantegua
Guatemala
Nicaragua
Costa Rica
Panama
Bahamas
Jamaica
Cuba
Dominican Republic
Haiti


I got all the countries in N.A.? Does anyone care?

I wish i live in quebec, only if i can speak french
Well you're not forced to. About 20% of the population's primary language is English or other non-official languages (12% speak "English only"), and most services are available in both official languages.

In certain areas (such as Montreal's West Island), a majority of people speak English locally, so they "live" in English in their neighborood. They can get English-language newspapers (Montreal-based "Gazette", and the free cultural newspapers "Hour" and "Mirror"). In shops, you can almost always get service in English, although sometimes people will struggle to understand you! But they'll try, because business is business.

English is an asset for a lot of jobs in IT, sales, management, and so on. Although if you speak only English, your boss may want you to learn some French in order to be able to interact with all your co-workers. My former boss actually PAID languages courses to 2 of his employees.

Most street and highway signs are in French only (except on federal ground), but they're based mostly on icons and colors, so you don't need to worry. It's easy to find your direction.

A few funny things...
Directions: N,S,W,E --> N,S,O,E
Faucets: C,H --> F,C (careful!!!! C means chaud/hot)

So language shouldn't stop you, if you really want to live here. English speaking persons are welcomed, and if you try to speak some French, most French-speaking persons will switch to English to accomodate you in a discussion. I've seen people going to great lengths to make sure a English-speaking person feels right in a French-language group.

After a year or two in Quebec, even if you live and work mostly in English, you'll probably understand 20-30% French, just by being here. Even if you don't make any particular effort. You'll be able to go in the regions, and enjoy the places and people. The Laurentides, the Eastern Townships, the Gaspesis.
PS: We get absolutely 0% smog east of Quebec city.

How do the Quebeçois feel about the Gay Marriage issue? I live really close to Quebec, but I 've only been there once, to Sherbrook, Quebec City, and Montreál, on tour with my orchestra. I don't know if they are largely faithful Catholics, or what the deal is. Do you guys think that the passing of the pro-gay marriage bill in Ottawa could spur them towards secession?

No! I just barely discovered Belize was a country in North America!

Don't make me and all other poor American kids be forced to learn another country!

Umm,
Greenland (owned by Denmark)
U.S.A.
Mexico
Belize
Mantegua
Guatemala
Nicaragua
Costa Rica
Panama
Bahamas
Jamaica
Cuba
Dominican Republic
Haiti


I got all the countries in N.A.? Does anyone care?

1. There's no such place as "Mantegua". Did you mean Antigua and Barbuda?

2. You also missed: St. Lucia, St Vincent, Grenada, Trinidad&Tobago, St. Kitts&Nevis, El Salvador, Barbados, and Canada.

3. Several islands that are still possesions of other countries: Anguilla, Montserrat, Turks&Caicos Is, Cayman Is., Bermuda, British Virgin Is. (all British), Martinique, Guadeloupe, Saba, St. Pierre&Miquelon, Clipperton I. (French), St. Eustatius, Aruba, Bonaire, Curacao (Dutch), St. Martin (joint French/Dutch sovereignty), Puerto Rico, U.S. V.I. (U.S.A.).

How do the Quebeçois feel about the Gay Marriage issue? I live really close to Quebec, but I 've only been there once, to Sherbrook, Quebec City, and Montreál, on tour with my orchestra. I don't know if they are largely faithful Catholics, or what the deal is. Do you guys think that the passing of the pro-gay marriage bill in Ottawa could spur them towards secession?
The Bloc voted massively FOR. And the Liberals elected in Quebec too.
Quebec is a VERY peaceful and open society. You can walk in the Gay Village in Montreal even if you're straight, even at 3am, alone, without worrying about your security or anything. You can get into gay bars if you wish (they have the best shows and shooters), it really doesn't matter.
So yes, most people are pro gay marriage here. In fact, many of my friends have gay people in their family (brother, sister, aunt, grandpa), and that's ok, they're invited in parties or family meetings. Their gay status is not kept hidden.

1. There's no such place as "Mantegua". Did you mean Antigua and Barbuda?

2. You also missed: St. Lucia, St Vincent, Grenada, Trinidad&Tobago, St. Kitts&Nevis, El Salvador, Barbados, and Canada.

3. Several islands that are still possesions of other countries: Anguilla, Montserrat, Turks&Caicos Is, Cayman Is., Bermuda, British Virgin Is. (all British), Martinique, Guadeloupe, Saba, St. Pierre&Miquelon, Clipperton I. (French), St. Eustatius, Aruba, Bonaire, Curacao (Dutch), St. Martin (joint French/Dutch sovereignty), Puerto Rico, U.S. V.I. (U.S.A.).
*sigh* I knew it. *starts counting*

WTF, I can't believe I forgot Canada in a thread about Canada!

12 countries and....a lot of territories I missed.

Hmm, well I said enough to pass any Californian geography test.

*sigh* I knew it. *starts counting*

WTF, I can't believe I forgot Canada in a thread about Canada!

12 countries and....a lot of territories I missed.

Hmm, well I said enough to pass any Californian geography test.

good luck on ur test! :)
if ur having one.

Hey Sarkasis,

While you're here.. can you please explain to me WHY Quebec wants to leave? That is the one thing about this all that evades me.

ARRRGH! I forgot Dominica! :headbang:

I dont think quebec can survive without canada

I don't agree. It could, but I think the realities of just what they'd take and what they'd be constrained to leave behind should they exit Confederation are grim enough to ultimately turn Quebec from the brink in any event. Secondary referenda would be required region-by-region to confirm which parts of Quebec remain Canadian, and which become expressly Quebecois.

Partition is a chilling word. Apart from areas populated by federalists, there are also First Nations peoples to consider - would they prefer to remain associated with one or another of the two governments, would they prefer their own independence, and then again what of Labrador?

The Quebec government, no matter what party is at the helm, has been grousing for decades that Labrador is rightfully part of Quebec. Well, it's not, it's part of Newfoundland & Labrador. So that's not on offer. As well, a lot of the land in the north of Quebec that isn't First Nations lands are in fact, Federal Crown lands that the Quebec government administrates on behalf of the Crown. I don't think an independent Quebec will automatically be granted those lands, either.

An independent Quebec gets roughly the same geographical area (with allowances for growth, obviously) it occupied when it was known as 'La Nouvelle France'. I think it's only fair to leave with what you had when you came into the house-party. Put the stereo down.

But anyway, this ongoing separation thing is, I'm convinced, eventually gonna blow over. We just have to wait for the worst of 'em to start dropping like flies. Look at footage of just about any Separatist gathering. It's always a sea of white, grey, or dyed hair, with 'youthful' people cleverly standing in the foreground. And sometimes they're not even that 'youthful', either.

Old ideas from old people. I hope to see the whole movement fizzle out within my lifetime.

good luck on ur test! :)
if ur having one.
*snicker* A geography test in California...AHAHAHAHA :D

An honest mistake for any non-American. The only geography test I've ever had to do was in 5th grade, where I had to name all the states and all the capitals. I got 98/100 correct. Damn that Delaware. And name that one capital I'll never remember.

While you're here.. can you please explain to me WHY Quebec wants to leave? That is the one thing about this all that evades me.
OK. On this account, you may want to consult historical records.

Let's start after France loses the war, Britain is victorious, Quebec City is a heap of smoking ruins, and all the French nobles, merchants and administrators were sent back.

In the 1763 British North America Act, Canada was set as a British colony with the goal of assimilating the French-language people as fast as possible. (Please note that 100% of Canada was French speaking at the time -- 60,000 people.)

Unfortunately for the British, the American revolution was brewing and they didn't have enough troops to defend Canada. So they decided to give the Canadians the right to choose their religion and language. They also let people use the French Civil Code of Law (which is still used today in the province.)

(NOTE: France has replaced this Civil Code with the Napoleon Code, which is worth shit.)

So the assimilation process failed for 2 generations, as people minded their own business and lived thw way they used to live. Americans invaded, were pushed back. Loyalists settled in Canada. Ontario started to take shape. As a "true "British colony.

Then, there was an armed insurrection in 1837-1838. It was Canada's failed independence war. Most fighters were French speaking, but we also had Irish men and a few idealistic British in the troops. We got no international support, and people weren't well organized. The British won most of the battles, burnt 37 villages down, killed hundreds of citizen and hanged 12 of the leaders.

Following the trouble, the Colborne Report proposed to force the assimilation of French-speaking canadians, to make them "real, civilized British citizen". This report is a MAJOR work of racism and intolerence. If you happen to read it, you'll be amazed. It basically says that French Canadians are like animals.

But then, Canada (Quebec+Ontario) was founded as a country, in 1867 -- with the Colborne Report in mind. French was banned from commerce, government, and from territories to the west. When Manitoba was founded, it had a large population of Metis (French+Indian mixed blood) which spoke French. French language was banned, they revolted, they were butchered.

Until the 1960s, French had no official status in Canada. It was BANNED in some provinces. Then, the Quebec province started to WAKE UP and wonder, "Why are all the signs in English? Most people speak French here!" We passed language laws, modernized our society, created a lot of companies and developed hydro-electricity.

So now, do we want to stay in a country that was founded with the will of assimilating us (to dissolve us into another culture)? I don't think so. However often they say "we love you quebec, don't leave" and gather 100,000 persons in Montreal because there is a referendum... They don't love us as people, they love the territory.
Between 45 and 55% of Quebecers think that way.

The Quebec government, no matter what party is at the helm, has been grousing for decades that Labrador is rightfully part of Quebec. Well, it's not, it's part of Newfoundland & Labrador. So that's not on offer.
Actually, you're wrong on that one.
They don't want Labrador, they want to renegociate the delimitation, because it wasn't drawn properly in the first time.
According to the legal text, the delimitation is supposed to separate the hydrologic basins of Labrador and Quebec's Cote Nord. At the time, this area hadn't been explored, so some moron in London drew a straight line.
But today we have precise maps, and thus the line should be redrawn.
Anyway... it's about a small enough area.

Actually, you're wrong on that one.
They don't want Labrador, they want to renegociate the delimitation, because it wasn't drawn properly in the first time.
According to the legal text, the delimitation is supposed to separate the hydrologic basins of Labrador and Quebec's Cote Nord. At the time, this area hadn't been explored, so some moron in London drew a straight line.
But today we have precise maps, and thus the line should be redrawn.
Anyway... it's about a small enough area.

I'll concede the point.

An independent Quebec gets roughly the same geographical area (with allowances for growth, obviously) it occupied when it was known as 'La Nouvelle France'. I think it's only fair to leave with what you had when you came into the house-party. Put the stereo down.
Hmmm.... OK. Then, no other Canadian province should exist.

By the way, the actual borders were drawn by the British, so it's not our fault if we have such a large province. And no thanks, we won't let the North go. We have invested billions in energy development there, Quebec's own (provincial) money, nothing to do with the rest of Canada.

*snicker* A geography test in California...AHAHAHAHA :D

An honest mistake for any non-American. The only geography test I've ever had to do was in 5th grade, where I had to name all the states and all the capitals. I got 98/100 correct. Damn that Delaware. And name that one capital I'll never remember.

98/100 is pretty good score. Must be hard to memorize all 50 states and capitals.

What grade are u in?

It's always a sea of white, grey, or dyed hair, with 'youthful' people cleverly standing in the foreground. And sometimes they're not even that 'youthful', either.
LOL - you wish!!!

Are you describing a gathering of the Equality Party?

You don't know just HOW HIGH the support for independence is among young people. When you see gatherings on TV, you see political party leaders and activists -- no 18-years-old waving a flag in that group, of course.

But last week, 35,000 young persons paid 20$ each just to watch a pro-independence concert. Support for independence is very high in the new generation -- higher than ever. We'll get rid of the old farts, and do the hard work ourselves when the time comes.

Hmmm.... OK. Then, no other Canadian province should exist.

By the way, the actual borders were drawn by the British, so it's not our fault if we have such a large province. And no thanks, we won't let the North go. We have invested billions in energy development there, Quebec's own (provincial) money, nothing to do with the rest of Canada.

Well, except that it's not technically your land, though, is it? These are precisely the sort of horrible aspects to the inevitable, interminably-negotiated details of Separation. It will not be pleasant, it will quite possibly be somewhat less than civil, and a lot of money will be changing hands.

Don't assume you'll get anything close to the better end of the stick, come what may, should Quebec take their leave of Confederation.

98/100 is pretty good score. Must be hard to memorize all 50 states and capitals.

What grade are u in?
It's been 4 years....I just finished 9th grade.

They don't love us as people, they love the territory.
Between 45 and 55% of Quebecers think that way.

WE as in government? Because I know for a fact that most people where I live (Ont.) really are sick of the talk about you guys leaving, but very very few times in all the talk have people ever wished you would go.

I mean, a lot of injustice has been done to many people, and times were rough back then man, if the sides switched, what would have happened? But the sides weren't switched...

I guess the most common argument is that you guys get everything you want. It DOES seem like it. I mean compared to the mariners.

Well, except that it's not technically your land, though, is it? These are precisely the sort of horrible aspects to the inevitable, interminably-negotiated details of Separation. It will not be pleasant, it will quite possibly be somewhat less than civil, and a lot of money will be changing hands.
Yup.
Neither Canada nor Quebec know exactly in advance how the borders would (or wouldn't) be redrawn. Of who would get the advantage (if any).
Status quo is a probability you should consider.
So let's not make any assumption.
Quebec's borders have been modified numerous times.
Since Quebec wouldn't leave Canada as a French colony, it doesn't necessarily have to shrink to its pre-English colony borders. Don't forget that the French colony had no border to speak of.... while the English were very fond of drawing arbitrary borders over land they haven't even explored (and that holds for the rest of Canada as well). Not to mention the fact that "Nouvelle France" included a lot of settlements and forts in Ontario, Saskatchewan and Manitoba. It can get painful.

Have you read the documents about the 1995 referendum? It's quite fascinating. EVERYTHING had been carefully prepared, including paying back Canada for federal buildings and infrastructures. So we're not like a bunch of Basques blowing up cafés and not knowing where to go (politically).

Quebec!!! Plz Don't Leave!!! We Love You!!!! Really!!! Plz Plz Plz Stay In Canada!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol

He he heeeeeee
Maybe it'll work next time? Again?
I'm not a TOTAL independentist, you know.
Canada isn't all that bad for us.
I'd DIE for Canada if I had to.
I love that country, but I love Quebec more.
But culturally, it's obvious that we're threatened, and that we'd be better protected if we control our future.
So I consider the independence option seriously. That, and renewed federalism. But sincerely, who still believes in that?

A Canadian civil war would be interesting.... :)

I'm not canadian or québecoise but i'm sure that québec and Canada are better off together, simply because when nations split into two it only causes problems between that seperatists and nationalists. (Like Uk/ireland, india/pakistan, Malaysia/Singapore ended up in problems, although some less serious than others).

However, I don't really know enough detailed information to make a real judgement.

You must of thought you were really clever paralleling the original
referendum. But anyway I guess its not fair for someone who doesn’t speak french, they can’t
vote! /end sarcasm

no you have to be pretty much blind if you don’t understand yes or no. I live on the Border
between Quebec and Labrador (well as close as you can get) and vacation there regularly I don’t
know what I would do if they left, so you can guess my vote.

Quebec!!! Plz Don't Leave!!! We Love You!!!! Really!!! Plz Plz Plz Stay In Canada!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol
I don't think that much people at the other end of Canada know much about Québec, eh? You British-Colomber! :p

How do the Quebeçois feel about the Gay Marriage issue? I live really close to Quebec, but I 've only been there once, to Sherbrook, Quebec City, and Montreál, on tour with my orchestra. I don't know if they are largely faithful Catholics, or what the deal is. Do you guys think that the passing of the pro-gay marriage bill in Ottawa could spur them towards secession?

Right now, we are having a leadership campaign for the direction of PQ (Parti Québécois, the one most likely to make the separation one day). André Boisclair who is in first position with 42% in survey is gay.

While you're here.. can you please explain to me WHY Quebec wants to leave? That is the one thing about this all that evades me.

A modern response would be: Province are giving the autonomy to run by them self like a country, but they cant because there is always something they need to refer to Ottawa. Province drive there education and health system, they can give orientation to there economy, but always have to refer for international trading, transport or for anything touching communication. Business have to deal with 2 complex tax systems...

Partition is a chilling word. Apart from areas populated by federalists, there are also First Nations peoples to consider - would they prefer to remain associated with one or another of the two governments, would they prefer their own independence, and then again what of Labrador?

Concerning the territory, modern day border is the only way to go... we could argue for years on history border: 1927 before we lost a chunk to newfoundland, pre-1867 when quebec included mostly montreal and Quebec city, at this point we could also claim Canada was 100% french before France gave it to UK.

Now partition is the biggest scaring bullshit since 1980 when Brick's (not sure of the name) did a big truck convoys to illustrate how our economy would crash. Quebec is a political entity with some international recognition. Quebec have an historic reason to demand separation. If Ottawa want to give any geographic area the right to separate, I shall declare right now my 3 1/2 unilaterally sovereign. You can come anytime you want, all drugs and prostitution are now legal.

Anyway, on practice partition would be unfeasible. Devising Berlin in 2 was one of the biggest joke of history. You aren't gonna devise Montréal like a swiss cheese putting customs at every street corner and passing a scanner on every one using subway.

But anyway, this ongoing separation thing is, I'm convinced, eventually gonna blow over. We just have to wait for the worst of 'em to start dropping like flies. Look at footage of just about any Separatist gathering. It's always a sea of white, grey, or dyed hair, with 'youthful' people cleverly standing in the foreground. And sometimes they're not even that 'youthful', either.

Don't hold your breath on this one :)
As Sarkasis said, separation is popular among young people. I think it is safe to say there will always be a 30% of hard sovereignist, a 30% of hard federalist and a 40% of uncertain. I actually think Canada is gonna kill himself. Seeing how thing go right now in Ottawa.

Quebec should only be allowed to seperate if it is FULL sovereignity as true independent nation. No shared currencies or gov't programs as many of the old-line sepratists seem to be fond of keeping. They should have to take on their share of the National Debt too, though that in itself would be a question worthy of at least one referendum (how should the amount be determined?)


I think the future of an independent Quebec would be neither as bad as the federalists paint it, nor a rosey as Sarkasis sources (ie:15th largest economy) would have us beleive. The truth lies somewhere in between. Quebec would certainly stand morte than a fighting chance at being a successful nation.

It would SUCK if they left, but I'd wish em good luck (and be glad the Pure Laine (sp?) racists were no longer a Canadain problem) I'd miss the billingual labels on everything, but not the horrible french TV shows or Benrard Landry. And needing a passport to go to my favourite club (Stereo, Montreal) would suck, but then again, I need one to go to my 2nd fave club (Chucks Millionaires in Detroit)

They should have to take on their share of the National Debt too, though that in itself would be a question worthy of at least one referendum (how should the amount be determined?)

That has already been taken care by fiscalists on both sides. Don't worry, if we ever leave, we'll leave like gentlemen and pay our share of the restaurant bill.

I think the future of an independent Quebec would be neither as bad as the federalists paint it, nor a rosey as Sarkasis sources (ie:15th largest economy) would have us beleive.
Well of course it's not THAT rosey, but some people don't have a clue on just how powerful our provincial economy is.

But then again, did you know that CALIFORNIA has the world's 4th biggest economy? It is amazing. Now wonder the US is #1, they have California! LOL

Quebec's economy would probably slid down a few levels in the first years, but after it would probably go up again. Most big companies will want to have a regional office here anyway. In the IT & hi-tech world because we're so damn good; in industrial production because we have cheap electricity and water.

and be glad the Pure Laine (sp?) racists were no longer a Canadain problem
I don't know why or how English Canadians always come up with this sorry joke. Quebecois aren't racist at all, come on guys. This is a land of tolerence here. Just because we have made a language law doesn't make us nazis (like some Toronto-based newspapers like to write, in anger). GET OVER IT.

This language law simply says that French is the official language here, even though OTHER languages may be used. You're allowed to use English, Italian, Portuguese if you wish. You're allowed to speak, write in any language you want. You're allowed to print newspapers or have radio stations in English. The ONLY THING the government asks is: 1) all consumer products should have French instructions available (usually, wrappings are in the 2 official languages), 2) store signs must have French on them (along with other languages if people want)

So why are SOME canadians complaining all the time about this language law? Ohhhh I see, they want "English only", because of some war that was won in 1763. GET OVER IT. Winning a war doesn't mean eternal cultural domination. Look at the Philippines: after 4 centuries of foreign domination (Spain, USA), they still speak Tagalog today.

Come on, if you were living in Europe, you'd have 17 LANGUAGES on your toothpaste tube (this is a true example by the way). How shocking for ya.

Soooo we're not racist at all, we're just trying to have our services and products available in French, along with English is you wish. Because if you can't LIVE your DAILY LIFE in your own language, you lose it eventually.

We welcome a lot of people here, we have a VERY HIGH number of immigrants from all countries in the World, lots of Africans, lots of people from the Middle East. People are happy. We NEVER read accounts of race-motivated crimes in the newspapers, because there aren't any.

We have made peace with our Native People and we're signing new peace treaties and economic development treaties that are actually to their advantage. Innu, Huron and Inuit people are especially in good terms with the government. Their cultures are thriving. Have you ever read Inuit texts? It's beautiful.

but not the horrible french TV shows
LOL but we LOVE these shows.

or Benrard Landry
I agree with you on that one. What a bland, uninspired politician he is.

And needing a passport to go to my favourite club (Stereo, Montreal) would suck, but then again, I need one to go to my 2nd fave club (Chucks Millionaires in Detroit)
You'd probably need just an ID card or valid papers, not a passport.
Hey, why would we want people to stop coming to Montreal and have fun? We get busloads of US tourists already, and they love the place (and WE love them, because they're not as rude as some European tourists!!!!)

PS:
I am EXTREMELY PLEASED to see how civilized this debate is, up to now. On any other forum, it would have degenerated into a flame war. And usually people don't have a clue what they're talking about, and can't articulate their arguments anyway. So hey guys, I'm impressed.

If Quebec leaves, can Maine take its place? I mean, hell, we're half Canadian already. :D

I'm slightly a seperatist :D

I dont think quebec can survive without canada
I beg to differ. Survival is a given. Retaining our quality of life is not but survival is.

Sarkasis, I wanted to send you a message via TG, but I don't seem to be able to.

Sarkasis, I wanted to send you a message via TG, but I don't seem to be able to.
Hmmmm I had 10 telegrams in my inbox... is there a limit?
I have cleared a few.
Please try again on my country's NS page.

http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/target=display_nation/nation=sarkasis

News flash: nobody gives a shite about the territory, it IS the people and the culture of Quebec that the rest of Canada wants to stay. The only reason any crotchety old man says "Separate already, if you are so miserable, who needs ya?" is because they are sick of listening to the debate after 30 years. I don't think anybody really wants to see Quebec leave Canada, it contributes half of what makes Canada culturally what it is. We would be like "America-North" if Quebec left, and that prospect is not pleasing to me.

I went to your nation's homepage, but there was no box for leaving telegrams there, just blank space. Do you have your settings arranged a certain way?

Ouch. Don't get me started on this.

An independent Quebec would be the WORLD'S 15th ECONOMIC POWER.
(And if we take the GDP, it would be 20th.)

Quebec's economy would be comparable to that of countries such as Norway or Sweden.

Numerous studies were made on the subject. Remember, we had a separatist government half of the time for the last 25 years. So there was a political will to ask the questions and get the answers. Even if the answers were not always 100% positive. Some serious economists and lawmakers had plenty of time to study the subject.

Quebec is a major electricity producer; since it uses mainly hydro-electricity, this revenue source won't vanish tomorrow morning. And there are plenty of rivers available still.

QUEBEC'S INDUSTRY in Canada...
50% of Canada's IT companies
50% of Canadian plane parts and aerospace/satellite parts, research
45% of its pharmaceutical research and production.
40% of its biotech
38% of Canada's exports in high technologies

You do realize that that won't all remain in Quebec if seperation occurs don't you? You'll have a territory all of a sudden in economic turmoil, needing to come up with its own currency (I very much doubt the Canadian government would allow them to keep theirs, and the Americans sure as hell won't let them adopt theirs). Want to wager on how the markets would end up valuing that currency? All of a sudden all those transfer payments from the federal government stop and the province is thrown back onto relying entirely on it's own resources which results in an instantaneous large-scale slashing of government revenue. You can rely on Quebec not getting out of the country without assuming it's per capita share of the national debt. Etc...

The Quebec economy would get hammered.

Citizens of Qubec are a different nationality, why not have their own nation?

You do realize that that won't all remain in Quebec if seperation occurs don't you? You'll have a territory all of a sudden in economic turmoil,
Yes and no. We'd certainly lose a few players, but then again, we can attract new ones quite easily, especially with our cheap electricity and proximity to interesting markets.

needing to come up with its own currency (I very much doubt the Canadian government would allow them to keep theirs, and the Americans sure as hell won't let them adopt theirs).
No-no. In 1995, it seems that Canada would have accepted to let an independent Quebec have a "currency union" with them. In fact, without a "currency union" with Quebec, the Canadian dollar would PLUNGE.
And if Canada is stupid enough to miss the opportunity, there is still the Euro... and US currency (which is used by many countries already).

You can rely on Quebec not getting out of the country without assuming it's per capita share of the national debt. Etc...
It's been taken into account already. Why coming up with THIS non-argument each time? We'd take a fair part of the debt, and pay back for federal buildings and assets. We're not bandits, for God's sake. Please read independentist official documents, they're available freely on the web (and even translated in English for your greatest pleasure).

The Quebec economy would get hammered.
Dream on.

Please read independentist official documents, they're available freely on the web (and even translated in English for your greatest pleasure).

Tut-tut.

Don't make suppositions without any sort of basis.

That's just not nice, Sark.

Yes and no. We'd certainly lose a few players, but then again, we can attract new ones quite easily, especially with our cheap electricity and proximity to interesting markets.


No-no. In 1995, it seems that Canada would have accepted to let an independent Quebec have a "currency union" with them. In fact, without a "currency union" with Quebec, the Canadian dollar would PLUNGE.
And if Canada is stupid enough to miss the opportunity, there is still the Euro... and US currency (which is used by many countries already).


It's been taken into account already. Why coming up with THIS non-argument each time? We'd take a fair part of the debt, and pay back for federal buildings and assets. We're not bandits, for God's sake. Please read independentist official documents, they're available freely on the web (and even translated in English for your greatest pleasure).


Dream on.
I don't know if you know about transfer payments, but currently the Quebec government is pretty much carried by Alberta and Ontario. The economy would probably bust completely. FIrst thing that would happen is that English would not be an official language and all English companies would pull out. Transfer payments would stop, they would start with massive debt, and Quebec's government would either run out of funds for social programs or increase taxes so high that the Quebec economy would collapse. Combine that with Quebec having to get it's own currency, it's own bureacracy, mass emigration as English Quebecers leave, and general unrest and the whole of Quebec would sink like a rock.

Tut-tut.

Don't make suppositions without any sort of basis.

That's just not nice, Sark.
Why? Because you're lazy? LOL

OK, here are a few. But I won't spend more than 5 minutes on this.

http://english.republiquelibre.org/
http://www.danielturp.org/main.php?p=interventions/2001/20-03-01.htm
http://www.danielturp.org/main.php?p=interventions/2001/notes2.htm
http://www.danielturp.org/main.php?p=interventions/2004/08-01-04.htm
http://www.danielturp.org/main.php?p=interventions/2001/9-02-01.htm
http://www.pq.org/nv/index.php?pq=57

I don't know if you know about transfer payments, but currently the Quebec government is pretty much carried by Alberta and Ontario.
LOL
What are your sources?

Why? Because you're lazy? LOL

OK, here are a few. But I won't spend more than 5 minutes on this.

http://english.republiquelibre.org/
http://www.danielturp.org/main.php?p=interventions/2001/20-03-01.htm
http://www.danielturp.org/main.php?p=interventions/2001/notes2.htm
http://www.danielturp.org/main.php?p=interventions/2004/08-01-04.htm
http://www.danielturp.org/main.php?p=interventions/2001/9-02-01.htm
http://www.pq.org/nv/index.php?pq=57

No, you've misunderstood my post. I wasn't asking for a link. I was calling into question your apparent misapprehension.

Thanks for the links nonetheless. Sorry to leave you felling discomfited. That was not my intent.

Hmm, well I said enough to pass any Californian geography test.goody..

Thaose aswers wouls fail you in Bolivia...

in fact they woul fail you in most Coutries south of the border.

Non. Ce serait suicide économique.

Good; once less mouth for Ontario to feed! :DOntario/Ottawa is a mouth-to-feed for Alberta...isnt it?

Citizens of Qubec are a different nationality, why not have their own nation?because they dont have the cojones.

they aready have a parlament(congres), they have the industry, the skilled manpower, they have energi sources, raw materials, they have more economic assets than most sovereign countries..

.but they are insecure...at least the old people are...they are easily scared by the politcians..

LOL
What are your sources?
http://www.fin.gc.ca/transfers/transfers_eq_e.html
Quebec got $4.678 billion mainly from Alberta, but partly from Ontario, in 2002-03.

Alberta and, to a lesser extent, Ontario are carrying the country. Every other province takes transfers from these 2 provinces. Quebec is the lead bloodsucker in this robbery.

Personally it seems to me if they don't want to be a part of Canada, and Canada is the "fair", "progressive", "enlightened", "utopia" that some of you try so hard to ram down the rest of the worlds throat, why would you have the need to force them to stay? It makes no sense at all to me. Could it be things just might not be so wonderful for a huge portion of the population? Say it isn't so!

OK, I have spent some time on this thread and exposed many arguments. While people may be critical of them, question them, or dismiss them, I don't really care. This is prospective politics, so everything is true and false at the same time. We just don't know for sure.

Even for someone who believes independance would be a good thing, there are doubts and self questioning. I know that any country that becomes independent loses a lot in the short time. But the long-time gains may well be worth the price and sacrifices. Some guy once said, "I had a dream". Well, we have a dream... and it's not a collective hallucination, I tell you.

(I don't hate Canada, but Quebec has my priority. And while we would probably have the choice between the Canadian dollar and the Euro, I'd give the Canadian dollar a higher priority, because it would slightly reduce the economical damage done to Canada in the process.)

This discussion is interesting nonetheless, and even more because it hasn't turned into a flame fest. It would have been easy to start calling names.

So please, don't take it wrong if I stop answering. I'm not out of ideas or arguments, I am just a bit tired. You know, it's quite tough to answer to so many questions/critics/arguments in such a short amount of time.

Liverbreath']Personally it seems to me if they don't want to be a part of Canada, and Canada is the "fair", "progressive", "enlightened", "utopia" that some of you try so hard to ram down the rest of the worlds throat, why would you have the need to force them to stay? It makes no sense at all to me.

One entry found for hypocrisy.
1 : a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=hypocrisy

You do realize that that won't all remain in Quebec if seperation occurs don't you? You'll have a territory all of a sudden in economic turmoil, needing to come up with its own currency (I very much doubt the Canadian government would allow them to keep theirs, and the Americans sure as hell won't let them adopt theirs). Want to wager on how the markets would end up valuing that currency? All of a sudden all those transfer payments from the federal government stop and the province is thrown back onto relying entirely on it's own resources which results in an instantaneous large-scale slashing of government revenue. You can rely on Quebec not getting out of the country without assuming it's per capita share of the national debt. Etc...

The Quebec economy would get hammered.

Truth is I have no doubt the US would do whatever it could to help them out in any way possible, including the minting of their currency, as I doubt Canada would think to keep ties close. They must be punished for leaving the motherland!

because they dont have the cojones.

they aready have a parlament(congres), they have the industry, the skilled manpower, they have energi sources, raw materials, they have more economic assets than most sovereign countries..

.but they are insecure...at least the old people are...they are easily scared by the politcians..

A lot of people are easily scared by politicians, not just there, and it isn't their fault. These people are supposed to be leaders and respected, however they have turned government into a haven for con artists and ambulance chasers. I firmly believe smaller is better when it comes to government and independent states.

zooooommmm....

http://www.desequilibrefiscal.gouv.qc.ca/index_ang.htm

ok i'm gone for now ;)

News flash: nobody gives a shite about the territory, it IS the people and the culture of Quebec that the rest of Canada wants to stay. The only reason any crotchety old man says "Separate already, if you are so miserable, who needs ya?" is because they are sick of listening to the debate after 30 years. I don't think anybody really wants to see Quebec leave Canada, it contributes half of what makes Canada culturally what it is. We would be like "America-North" if Quebec left, and that prospect is not pleasing to me.

:fluffle:

(Donut take it personal as a Canadian, but many federalist from Quebec want to stay in Canada because they don't want to loose the rockys)

needing to come up with its own currency (I very much doubt the Canadian government would allow them to keep theirs, and the Americans sure as hell won't let them adopt theirs)

Even if Cuba have is one currency, Castro never asked USA permission to also use US one. Canada could let us use Canadian dollar and cooperate or not. But if we want to, we will just use it (it would be harder to control our economy, but still)

You can rely on Quebec not getting out of the country without assuming it's per capita share of the national debt.

We own about 25% of Canada national debt just like we own 25% of Canada possession and real estate

FIrst thing that would happen is that English would not be an official language and all English companies would pull out

Huh, no. Don't trust what you read in Toronto news paper. People can live in english in Quebec and most french learn english because we are conscious that with 6 millions of french on the 250 millions population of north america we wont go anywhere only with our mother tongue

Huh, no. Don't trust what you read in Toronto news paper. People can live in english in Quebec and most french learn english because we are conscious that with 6 millions of french on the 250 millions population of north america we wont go anywhere only with our mother tongue

I don't read Toronto papers, I read the Winnipeg Free Press.

If I remember correctly elementary schooling in Quebec is done totally in French, which has pissed off the Anglophone Quebecers. There are laws requiring signs to have French larger then English. Official bilinguilism is the only thing keeping English alive in Quebec.
Who do you think would be in power if Quebec seperated? Those anti-English who support these types of laws. Most anglophones would leave, further cementing French domination and the removal of English in any official capacity. Quebec will go totally French if it seperates and that will lead to a a large recession, maybe even a depression, of their economy.

If I remember correctly elementary schooling in Quebec is done totally in French,
Totally untrue.
http://www.emsb.qc.ca/

I don't read Toronto papers, I read the Winnipeg Free Press.

If I remember correctly elementary schooling in Quebec is done totally in French, which has pissed off the Anglophone Quebecers...*snip*
...Quebec will go totally French if it seperates and that will lead to a a large recession, maybe even a depression, of their economy.LOL,

you just made the Point that the Winnipeg Free Press...should be indeed be free.

cos its not worth a penny.

Totally untrue.
http://www.emsb.qc.ca/
LOL,

you just made the Point that the Winnipeg Free Press...should be indeed be free.

cos its not worth a penny.

http://www2.marianopolis.edu/quebechistory/readings/langlaws.htm

BILL 63
The Loi pour promouvoir la langue française au Quebec was passed by the Union Nationale government of Jean-Jacques Bertrand in the fall of 1969. The Bill attempted to resolve a number of issues: the St-Léonard school situation, where a francophone majority on the local school board had enacted that all children whose mother tongue was not English would have to go to French schools (despite the opposition of most of the parents of Italian-speaking children who wish to send their children to English schools), the general demand by francophones for a more French Quebec and the recognition of minority rights. The bill, while promoting the teaching of French in English schools and making available to immigrants French classes for a better integration into the Quebec milieu, fell short of the demand of the majority of francophones who would, seemingly, have favoured the elimination of the freedom of choice of parents to send their children to English schools and to restrict access to such schools to the children whose mother tongue was English. Not only did the bill not implement the linguistic policy that most Quebecers seemed to have wished but, in reality, its substance was to guarantee to all in Quebec the right to choose the language of instruction for their children. The effect of such a clause was to accelerate the rate of integration of the rapidly increasing population of allophones to the anglophone group and, thus, to potentially threaten the position of dominance of French in Quebec, especially in the context of the rapidly diminishing birth rate of francophones in the province. The intense discontent which resulted from the passing of this bill led to the appointment of the Gendron Commission to study the status of the French language in Quebec and in 1974 to the passing of the Loi sur la langue officielle (Bill 22). The passing of Bill 63 was instrumental in the defeat of the Union Nationale government at the polls in 1970 and in the demise of that party from the political landscape of Quebec.

BILL 22
The Loi sur la langue officielle was adopted by the National Assembly of Quebec in 1974. Bill 22 was passed to solve the problems which arose after the passing of Bill 63. The Liberal government of Robert Bourassa attempted to reconcile the promotion of the French language in Quebec and the protection of minority rights. The law proclaimed French the official language in Quebec, set up a Régie de la langue française to supervise the application of the bill, imposed on all public institutions the duty to address the public administration in French, made French the official language of contracts, forced corporations to give themselves a French name and to advertise primarily in French in Quebec as well as to seek a certificate of francization which could only be obtained when it was demonstrated that the business could function in French and address its employees in French. On the subject of schools, it maintained the freedom of choice for the language of instruction, but subjected the entrance into English schools to those children that a test showed had a knowledge of English. Thus, all those who were anglophones would have access to English school; the bill also guaranteed the existence of an English language sector of education. While the bill required the use of French in a number of instances, as outlined above, it also usually permitted and safeguarded the use of English as well; thus, for example, contracts could also be in English, and even solely in English if this was the request of both parties to the contract. Bill 22 came sharply under attack from extremists on both sides of the language barrier, some francophones arguing that it did not go far enough in the protection and the promotion of French, while many anglophones felt that it went much too far. The application of a language test to young school children was especially resented by many for a variety of conflicting reasons. Anglophone rejection of the bill was especially widespread. An anglophone petition bearing more than 600,000 names (nearly the entire anglophone community) was drafted in 1976 and large numbers of anglophone abandoned the Liberal party in the elections of 1976, despite the fact that they were traditional supporters of that party and that the main opponent of the Liberals was the Parti Québécois. They voted instead for the moribund Union Nationale and contributed, by their voting behaviour, to the election of the Parti Québécois. The discontent generated by bill 22 not only contributed significantly to the defeat of the Liberal government but, as well, to the resignation of Robert Bourassa from the leadership of the Liberal Party.

Bill 101
The passing of Bill 22 by the Bourassa government in 1974 became an important issue during the Quebec elections of November 1976. The bill had come under attack from the anglophone community and from those, in the francophone community, who thought that the bill did not go far enough. Once in power, the new government of the Parti Québécois led by René Levesque first issued a white paper on language and then introduced Bill 1 and later a revised version of it, Bill 101, titled Charte de la langue française. The bill, as it was passed in the summer of 1977, proclaimed French as the official language in Quebec for just about every facet of life in the province: government, judicial system, education, advertising, business, contracts, etc. For example, the bill required that all advertising on billboards be done in French only and that all commercial signs in business establishments be in French alone. All public administrations and businesses had to address their employees in French. All government agencies were directed to use the Official language in their dealings with corporations and other governments in Canada. Government Ministries and Agencies, as well as professional associations in Quebec, were to be known by their French name. The laws of the province were to be enacted in French although an English translation might also be made (and indeed continued to be made after bill 101). English education was to be restricted mostly to those already in the system, their siblings, those temporarily posted in Quebec or whose parents had themselves received an English elementary education in the province. While the bill was very prescriptive in several respects, it showed considerable flexibility in connection to businesses, especially head offices of international and national corporations centred in Quebec. While francization programmes were instituted for businesses, they were limited to businesses of more than 50 employees.

The debates around bill 101 have never abetted and seem endless. The law has received very bad press outside of Quebec and anglophone Quebecers have never accepted it. They believe the bill was designed essentially to eradicate English from the face of the province, that many of its provisions are unduly harsh, unfair, and in violation of basic human rights. They reject the view that French is a threatened language and that it requires strong legislative protection. They demand that their language be considered equal and be allowed full visibility. Their perception of the bill is sharpened by sometimes plainly petty application of it by overzealous bureaucrats, called “the language police”.

By contrast, the bill has received widespread support from the francophone community. It views the bill as an essential protection against the increasingly pervasive spread of the dominance of the English language in North America, indeed the world. Many remember the days when French was insignificant as a language of achievement and promotion in the province, when discrimination was rampant, and when businesses did not provide fair and adequate services in the French language. What many anglophones view as an instrument of oppression is seen by many francophones as the thunderous expression of their right to live in French in one corner of North America. Indeed, it is of significance that the name of the law is Charte de la langue française; it conveys for many the same dedicated support one would offer to a Charter of Rights. Thus, both communities have a deep sense that they are right and that the other side is wrong. Both react as endangered minorities fighting for their very existence and appealing to the other side for understanding. Few are able to discuss the subject without becoming emotional.

A number of changes have been effected to the bill. Some were made because provisions of the law have been found to have violated articles of the Constitution or, after 1982, the new Canadian Charter of Rights. Other changes were made willingly by the majority in an attempt to resolve issues as they arose and to show good faith. The most significant of the changes have dealt with the language of legislation (now issued in both English and French), access to English schools (enlarged to guarantee access to English school to all those that have received their education in English in Canada), and with the language of signs (where English is now acceptable provided that French be given priority). Some of these changes were incorporated in a bill issued in 1993 by the Liberal government of Robert Bourassa (Bill 86). Another bill (42) guaranteed to anglophones health and social services in their language. Some of that should have gone a long way to lessen tension on the linguistic front. However, guarantees of social services in a language at a time when governments are cutting so many social services altogether are perhaps not guarantees at all. So the battle rages on.

Bill 101 restricted English education a lot but has been loosened a bit.

http://www2.marianopolis.edu/quebechistory/readings/langlaws.htm

Bill 101 restricted English education a lot but has been loosened a bit.Like I said:

you just made the Point that the Winnipeg Free Press...should be indeed be free.

cos its not worth a penny.

Also Katania...all your big copypasted post does not adress my view-point.

Quebec can't leave. Then we wouldn't be able to claim that the best goalies are canadian, damnit.

Plus all my years in french immersion would be useless.

Like I said:

you just made the Point that the Winnipeg Free Press...should be indeed be free.

cos its not worth a penny.

Also Katania...all your big copypasted post does not adress my view-point.
Then maybe I misunderstood your point. My point is that those in charge of Quebec, or more specifically, those most devoted to the seperation of Quebec and those that will take charge if Quebec seperates have a history of limiting Anglophone rights in Quebec. Should Quebec seperate, Anglophone language rights will be completely removed, and Quebec will turn to French in totality, causing English companies ot leave, greatly harming their economy.

If I remember correctly elementary schooling in Quebec is done totally in French, which has pissed off the Anglophone Quebecers. There are laws requiring signs to have French larger then English. Official bilinguilism is the only thing keeping English alive in Quebec.
Who do you think would be in power if Quebec seperated? Those anti-English who support these types of laws. Most anglophones would leave, further cementing French domination and the removal of English in any official capacity. Quebec will go totally French if it seperates and that will lead to a a large recession, maybe even a depression, of their economy.

Basically, you can study in an english school in Quebec (elementary, high school or college) but you need to prove you have been raised in an english family (the goal is to force immigrant to learn french).

The law about the size of the sign is not enforced because Quebec don't want to burn to much money on inspector. If you go in Montreal Chinatown, you wont see much french.

I wont deny we have some pro-french/anti-anglo freaks here, but they don't represent much more then 5-10% of the population. So what you said is unlikely to happen because most people don't bother about there ultra-nationalist view.

Liverbreath']Personally it seems to me if they don't want to be a part of Canada, and Canada is the "fair", "progressive", "enlightened", "utopia" that some of you try so hard to ram down the rest of the worlds throat, why would you have the need to force them to stay? It makes no sense at all to me. Could it be things just might not be so wonderful for a huge portion of the population? Say it isn't so!
Nobody has forced quebec to stay, a majority of quebecers hasn't even deceided they want to leave.

Basically, you can study in an english school in Quebec (elementary, high school or college) but you need to prove you have been raised in an english family (the goal is to force immigrant to learn french).

The law about the size of the sign is not enforced because Quebec don't want to burn to much money on inspector. If you go in Montreal Chinatown, you wont see much french.

I wont deny we have some pro-french/anti-anglo freaks here, but they don't represent much more then 5-10% of the population. So what you said is unlikely to happen because most people don't bother about there ultra-nationalist view.
But isn't it these same freaks representing 5-10% that are the most diehard seperatists? These are the same people pushing the seperatist agendas. These are the people who will gain power if Quebec seperates. They will gain power, they will institute anti-anglophone language laws, and businesses will leave because of it.

By the way, the language laws don't prevent English-speaking people from living their whole life in English, going to school in English, working in English and speaking English with their English neighbors who never ever speak to French-speaking Quebecois because they self-segregate and complain of that.

But isn't it these same freaks representing 5-10% that are the most diehard seperatists?
There are extremists on both sides. The Alliance Quebec party has long been a party for Anglo crackheads. Hell! Royal Orr has even burnt down his own local to blame the separatists!
And Raymond Villeneuve attracts the pro-separation nuts.

Anyway... as someone wrote earlier in this thread, in Quebec there is
30% separatists/independentists
30% federalists
40% of people who don't care, are unsure, or change their mind every morning while reading the newspapers

The last referendum was lost 49%-51%.
The next one will be won 55%-45%... if there is ever one!

But isn't it these same freaks representing 5-10% that are the most diehard seperatists? .NO they are not...

the people who is working hard to make the bill 101 work..are old generation quebecers.. they trying to fit a system that protects the French Language and Culture...by stepping over the English minority rights...they want to fit that system inside the Canadian federation...they wanted the lac-meech Accord, they wanted the veto, they wanted the "societe distinte" clause...

all of that is like fitting a pentagon inside a square...

the young generation of quebequers do not want all those compromises...they want a sovereign country...nothing less.

the young generation do not care for over-sized Frenchs signs or the language laws...they think they are stupid...they want English to stay for practical reasons...allowed to post English or Chinese or Italian or Greek signs dictated by whatever the local market demands.

They want to do away with these silly laws.

The young Quebecers are the most die hard ones...and they are not the 5-10% at the signs or language boards.

NO they are not...

the people who is working hard to make the bill 101 work are old generation quebecers.. they trying to fit a system that protects the French Language and Culture...by stepping over the English minority rights...they want to fit that system inside the Canadian federation...they wanted the lac meech, they wanted the veto, they wanted the "societe distinte" clause...

all of that is like fitting a pentagon inside a square...

the young generation of quebequers do not want all those compromises...they want a sovereign country...nothing less.

the young generation do not care for over sized Frenchs signs and the language patrol...they think they are stupid...they want English to stay for practical reasons...allowed to post English or Chinese or Italian or Greek signs dictated by whatever the local market demands.

They want to do away with these silly laws.
Interesting...

That has already been taken care by fiscalists on both sides. Don't worry, if we ever leave, we'll leave like gentlemen and pay our share of the restaurant bill.

Well and good then!

SNIPPED(a lot, for brevities sake only)


I don't know why or how English Canadians always come up with this sorry joke. Quebecois aren't racist at all, come on guys. This is a land of tolerence here. Just because we have made a language law doesn't make us nazis (like some Toronto-based newspapers like to write, in anger). GET OVER IT.

Actually I wasn't even thinking about the language laws when I made the Pure Laine comment. What I had in mind were comments *some* PQuistes have made: "Money and the Ethnic Vote" Oh, I 'm sure you don't wwant them around either. But it'd be nice for us on the other side of this issue to show them the door. Being an Anglo-Canadian of German background, you'd think I wouldn't much support the Language Laws, but I do see some very valid logic behind them. I was born in St. Boniface, Manitoba, lived there until I was 7. Long enough to be conditioned to find French signs, well, normal. Long enough to sympathise with francophone friends when I returned for visits later in my life. I wouldn't want my language trampled either. I think the Nazi image was made an easy sell by the actions of *some* of the "Language Police", who interpreted the letter ratyher than the spirit of the law.

Nonetheless I think its pretty preposterous that such stuff has to be legislated. Its just further entrenchs the divide and causes ill will on both sides. If Quebec goes, I want it to be amicably, not with eternal enemity between the two sides. I don't want Quebec to go, but it should be Quebecs choice.


I really despise that certain breed of Quebec politician that has exploited the insecurities and fears of francophone Quebecers to make political hay, to advance their careers, rather than out of any real deeply held convictions on these issues. But I suspect many Francophone Quebecers feell the same way?

comments *some* PQuistes have made: "Money and the Ethnic Vote"
I agree. Parizeau is a drunk and a disgrace. I was ashamed when I heard that.
Hopefully, almost nobody have endorsed these words.

And I'm happy to see that indeed, "ethnic" people (the young generation) are often pro-independence... and that money thing... why don't we work harder next time instead of complaining.

I dunno about the whole french people beign terribly tolerant of anglophones. My dad lived in Montreal for two years and doesn't speak a word of french, he didn't really leave with the most positive impression of the place or how the francophones treated anglophones.

I dunno about the whole french people beign terribly tolerant of anglophones. My dad lived in Montreal for two years and doesn't speak a word of french, he didn't really leave with the most positive impression of the place or how the francophones treated anglophones.
So basically he didn't learn a word of French, but he wanted French-speaking people to serve him in English?

That tolerance thing works both ways.

I dunno about the whole french people beign terribly tolerant of anglophones. My dad lived in Montreal for two years and doesn't speak a word of french, he didn't really leave with the most positive impression of the place or how the francophones treated anglophones.
is that why you are taking intensive french language lessons?

"Money and the Ethnic Vote"

As said, Parizeau was drunk and pissed of. The federal have putted much more money in the "no" campaign than the "yes" had and they delivered many citizenship to new immigrant so they could vote. But still, is word are a disgrace to any immigrant who took time to learn and understand our politic, even if they voted yes or no.

I really despise that certain breed of Quebec politician that has exploited the insecurities and fears of francophone Quebecers to make political hay, to advance their careers, rather than out of any real deeply held convictions on these issues. But I suspect many Francophone Quebecers feell the same way?

Propaganda is a political tool, many people didn't like the 100 000 person love-o-thon in Montreal or the menace of partition. Let see if we can get more reasonable with the departure of the "old school politician (Chrétien, Parizeau, Landry,...)

If Quebec leaves, can Maine take its place? I mean, hell, we're half Canadian already. :D


No Maine, your staying put!....The U.S. is kinda like the mob, once you become a member your in for life, and dont you forget it.

:cool: ............................................................................../ :sniper:

is that why you are taking intensive french language lessons?
No. I took french from kindergarden to OAC (old curriculum) at first because when I was 5 my mom sat me down and asked if I wanted to learn french and then later because I wanted to stick with it (it never hurts to know another language) I haven't got much practise since I left highschool though so now my french sucks. :(

As for my dad, I dunno what the deal was, he had a full time job where his coworkers would interact with him in english and he would come home on the weekends so he didn't really have much opportunity to learn the language. Apparantly he figured out a lot of the written stuff, many words are similar written out.
I dunno, I guess it gives a different perspective on immigrants here in Ontario, many come from places where english is not spoken, however upon arrival they need to work and thus never really intensively study the language and thus are incomprehensible.

No Maine, your staying put!....The U.S. is kinda like the mob, once you become a member your in for life..Whos life??
yours or maine?

*very-slowly aligns the shutgun under the table*

:D :D :D :mp5:

Whos life??
yours or maine?

*very-slowly aligns the shutgun under the table*

:D :D :D :mp5:

Until the U.S. ceases to exist as we know it....we cant have our states just seceding and joining Canada all willy-nilly, were are we to get more troops for Bush's next upcoming half-dozen wars?

No. I took French from kindergarten to OAC (old curriculum) at first because when I was 5 my mom sat me down and asked if I wanted to learn French and then later because I wanted to stick with it (it never hurts to know another language) I haven't got much practice since I left high school though so now my French sucks. :(

As for my dad, I dunno what the deal was, he had a full time job where his coworkers would interact with him in English and he would come home on the weekends so he didn't really have much opportunity to learn the language. Apparently he figured out a lot of the written stuff, many words are similar written out.
I dunno, I guess it gives a different perspective on immigrants here in Ontario, many come from places where English is not spoken, however upon arrival they need to work and thus never really intensively study the language and thus are incomprehensible.
hmm ok...

a few things...there is stupid people in every place...in every race...

to all the quebecers here bragging that there is absolutely no racism in Quebec...i say bull shit...

Quebec and Canada are full of very tolerant people...but they are not all good and nice.

its just the way it is.

Until the U.S. ceases to exist as we know it....we cant have our states just seceding and joining Canada all willy-nilly, were are we to get more troops for Bush's next upcoming half-dozen wars?
Well..... since the northern half of Maine used to be part of the Quebec province...

*evil look*

"My fellow Maine friends, Ich Bin Ein Bangor Mann, and I had a dream......."

Until the U.S. ceases to exist as we know it....we cant have our states just seceding and joining Canada all willy-nilly, were are we to get more troops for Bush's next upcoming half-dozen wars?
What happened to the coalition of the willing?

What happened to the coalition of the willing?


Meh, Maine doesnt want to pull that while G.W. is still in office...he will probably proclaim that terrorists are using Maine to produce WMD's and then send 500,000 marines up to Augusta.

Meh, Maine doesnt want to pull that while G.W. is still in office...he will probably proclaim that terrorists are using Maine to produce WMD's and then send 500,000 marines up to Augusta.

Well, first off...from what I have heard, Maine has no intention of leaving so this is a moot point, your responding to some kid's forum post...a kid who (sorry Maineiacs, I mean very little offense) was listing countries in N.America and left out Canada...Canada only being what is it? the third largest country in the world I believe? So I would conclude that he/she can hardly speak for his/her entire State.

Besides, if Maine splits to the great white north we can always offer (once again) statehood to Puerto Rico to try and keep the number at 50 :p

----

Sorry follow off topic posts, now I'll get back to what I wanted to post in the first place..

Although I am fairly ignorant in the matter of Quebec independance, I can say that from my point of view it would seem that if the people of Quebec feel threatened (as stated in an earlier post) and have plenty of motivations (also provided in this thread) then I see no real reason why they shouldnt secede from the "Confederacy"...I doubt the economy would be as succesfull right out of the gate as some hope, but heck if East Timor can achieve and maintain their independance then Quebec surely should be able to do so as well.

Again though, I stress...I am an American so I have very little knowledge about your situation up there.

Canada only being what is it? the third largest country in the world I believe?
We're the second largest country in the world.

We're the second largest country in the world.

Aren't we #1 since the USSR fall?

*looking around for an up-to-date world map*

Aren't we #1 since the USSR fall?

*looking around for an up-to-date world map*
No... still #2.

"Little" Russia is still bigger than us, even without all the land they lost.

Speaking from a purly unbiased perspective.... I can now see both pros and cons of an Independent Quebec, but my question is, how hated are the English in Quebec? It seems from similar threads that we're pretty hated and disliked and resented from when we took over from France, is that the case or am I missing the point entirely?

I've never been and am a bit nervous on going with my friends later on this year. Am I being a plank to think this?

Thats why these threads are so good, to learn things about countries from people that live there! ;)

Speaking from a purly unbiased perspective.... I can now see both pros and cons of an Independent Quebec, but my question is, how hated are the English in Quebec? It seems from similar threads that we're pretty hated and disliked and resented from when we took over from France, is that the case or am I missing the point entirely?
#1 you are not missing the point entirely. most quebecers deeply resent the way the feds scare tactics at the referendums...and they resent the way they flood money to buy federalist votes. which is at the root of the biggest corruption scandal in Canadian history.

#2 nothing will happen to you if you go to Quebec in vacation...just don't be obnoxious...Americans don't wear US#1 t-shirts when they go to Europe.
so don't wear Canadian Pride t-shirts in Quebec...don't insult them...or start singing the Canadian Anthem...even if you are the baseball game.

or if you have to be obnoxious(cos you cant help it) :headbang: ...be sure to have many friends around you...and have a getaway plan.
have fun. :D

I can now see both pros and cons of an Independent Quebec, but my question is, how hated are the English in Quebec? It seems from similar threads that we're pretty hated and disliked and resented from when we took over from France, is that the case or am I missing the point entirely?
Oh my God. How can I explain Quebec? LOL

There's not much hatred between persons, really, whatever the reason might be. Quebec is renowned for its social order and absence of persecution, exclusion.

Even though some English language newspapers just don't seem to stop portraying Quebec as a Gulag populated with rabid French-speaking paranoiacs/fascists/terrorists. They say the N word (the one with the Z in the middle) on a weekly basis. It's so pathetic.

Quebec works mostly like this:
"I learn a little bit of your language, you learn a little bit of mine -- things go smoothly." That's how the Quebec society keeps away from social disorder. We just don't like arguments. Better find a compromise: that's the Quebecois spirit, dude.

You never read in the newspapers "Guy was stabbed because he spoke English", or "Guy was refused in restaurant because he said "hello" instead of "bonjour"". Come on.

One thing though -- people EXPECT you to be friendly and soft-spoken, especially when they first meet you. Social order is a subtle game -- if you're an outsider, you'd better play it safe. Speak with everybody, speak a lot, kiss the girls on the cheek (twice, left first), smile, make jokes, and try to say a few words in French. People will LOVE you, you'll be a blast. You'll get the chicks.

#1 you are not missing the point entirely. most quebecers deeply resent the way the feds scare tactics at the referendums...and they resent the way they flood money to buy federalist votes. which is at the root of the biggest corruption scandal in Canadian history.
This year AGAIN, the federal government has organized Canada Day that way:

Quebec: 50% of the budget
Rest of Canada: 50% of the budget

Since Quebec accounts for 25% of the country's population, isn't it odd? Guess what: Canada Day is a day "to love Canada", what a great country, get a free flag, get another, vote Liberal. And they say the Sponsoring scandal / waste of public money is over......

It's just not right for the rest of Canada. They love this national day, it's important for them... and yet they don't get a decent funding. Some communities in Saskatchewan won't get enough money to organize anything (again). And Quebec gets the "please love Canada" special package.

esti... damn those English chiens! Vive les Quebecois!

esti... damn those English chiens! Vive les Quebecois!
Libérez-nous des Libéraux!

LOL

But no racism please.

Speaking from a purly unbiased perspective.... I can now see both pros and cons of an Independent Quebec, but my question is, how hated are the English in Quebec? It seems from similar threads that we're pretty hated and disliked and resented from when we took over from France, is that the case or am I missing the point entirely?

I've never been and am a bit nervous on going with my friends later on this year. Am I being a plank to think this?

Thats why these threads are so good, to learn things about countries from people that live there! ;)

As said, as long as you start with a "Bonjour, can I have a beer" you will get many smile. Also, if you go to downtown Montréal, you'll be suprise on how many english you will find.

esti... damn those English chiens! Vive les Quebecois!
ROFLCOPTER...haha

toi-la ...mange ta poutine

Ouch. Don't get me started on this.

An independent Quebec would be the WORLD'S 15th ECONOMIC POWER.
(And if we take the GDP, it would be 20th.)

Quebec's economy would be comparable to that of countries such as Norway or Sweden.

Numerous studies were made on the subject. Remember, we had a separatist government half of the time for the last 25 years. So there was a political will to ask the questions and get the answers. Even if the answers were not always 100% positive. Some serious economists and lawmakers had plenty of time to study the subject.

Quebec is a major electricity producer; since it uses mainly hydro-electricity, this revenue source won't vanish tomorrow morning. And there are plenty of rivers available still.

QUEBEC'S INDUSTRY in Canada...
50% of Canada's IT companies
50% of Canadian plane parts and aerospace/satellite parts, research
45% of its pharmaceutical research and production.
40% of its biotech
38% of Canada's exports in high technologies

Not to mention newly-found diamond deposits in the north and other natural resources.

Quebec has definitely the economic power to be independent. What lacks is a strong enough will by the population. After all, we haven't been persecuted in the last century (only before).

While some of this is iddly-diddly spot on, you forget that pesky little exodus that occured the last time things got all tensy-wensy. Your aerospace industry? Air Canada would be out of there like a shotty-watty, and Bombardier has also stated unequivocably that they would pack their bags too. And much of what you are describing includes subsidiaries of companies based elsewhere who's loyalties are rather suspect-wuspect.

The nortyh-worthy? Well the cree have made it pretty gosh-golly-darn clear that if Quebec can seperate for Canada, they can separate from Quebec to remain in Canada. So you'll be kissy-wissying those norther minerals and that nice James Bay Hydroelectic project goodbye.

And let's not forget that this super-duper-extra-wooper economy you vaunt is still supported by the net inflow of Federal Dollars that you receive via transfer payments.

Which isn't to say that Quebec won't survive as it's own itty-bitty country. Just that it won't be quite so Landy-wandy of Milky and Honey as you seem to assume.

...Well the cree have made it pretty gosh-golly-darn clear that if Quebec can seperate for Canada, they can separate from Quebec...If the Cree can separate then all the other tribes can...

I support native autonomy...
I say Quebec has a dutty to respect Native autonomy ...Quebec must give as much autonomy as Ottawa gives to the first nations...

Quebec shall match Canadian standarts of indian autonomy.

If the Cree can separate then all the other tribes can...
I support native autonomy...
I say Quebec has a dutty to respect Native autonomy ...Quebec must give as much autonomy as Ottawa gives to the first nations...

Quebec shall match Canadian standarts of indian autonomy.
And how about the fact that it is OTTAWA which ultimately decides of the natives' status. Quebec can't match Ottawa, because native affairs are a federal jurisdiction.

Ottawa has already given partial autonomy to the Inuits in Quebec's north (Nunavik), for your information.

So basically what you say doesn't make any sense. Maybe you can convince a non-Canadian, but what's the point of writing such fallacies?

Bombardier has also stated unequivocably that they would pack their bags too.
LOL
This company is based in Quebec, was founded in Quebec and will stay in Quebec.

Unless you can prove your point by providing INFORMATION instead of empty sentences.

Just that it won't be quite so Landy-wandy of Milky and Honey as you seem to assume.
What's that? Re-read my posts. And stop bullshitting people.

Your writing style is terribly annoying, by the way.

LOL
This company is based in Quebec, was founded in Quebec and will stay in Quebec..It would not surprise me if Bombardier speaks in favor of the current gov...and in favor of the federalistes...some companies have got some huge subsidies...and do have to make political statemens...I does not mean they will leave when the curtain falls.

no1 can guarantee that Bombardier will stay in Quebec ...and no1 can guarantee that it will leave.

neither of you have crystal balls.

LOL
This company is based in Quebec, was founded in Quebec and will stay in Quebec.

Unless you can prove your point by providing INFORMATION instead of empty sentences.

Well, gosh-googly-woo, guess you forgot all of Beaudoin's statements to that effect during the 95 referendum. and perhaps you haven't paid attention to how much FEDERAL money the silly-willys in Ottawa have put into Bombardier over the years.

And perhaps you didn't notice the departure of Tellier and the re-installation of Beaudoin to the top post at Bombardier late last year. (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1102978209293&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968705899037&DPL=IvsNDS%2F7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes)



Beaudoin is a Federalist through and through who is keenly-weenly aware of which side of his bread is buttered, and by who.

Why, the BQ even did an itty-bitty complaineroo about it in the House of Commons the last time around: (http://www.parl.gc.ca/PDF/35/1/parlbus/chambus/house/debates/han237-e.pdf )

Mr. Pierre de Savoye (Portneuf, BQ): Mr. Speaker, in the
current referendum debate, Bombardier President Laurent
Beaudoin should recognize Quebec’s contribution to the success
of his company instead of hinting that it might leave the
province if the Yes side wins.
Such comments are insulting, not only to the sovereignists but
to all Quebecers who contributed to the success of Bombardier
and were proud of it.
We should remember that government backing, with the
support of Quebec taxpayers, was a major ingredient of that
success.

It's on pagey-wagey 4, bottom right corner of the PDF, and if you were paying attention-wention at the time - he did WAY more than just hint. but finding '95 Canadian content on the Web is snarfly-tough gig.

Is THAT enough information for you? Or are those just more "empty" sentances by which I am "bull"ing the readers?