NationStates Jolt Archive

My grandmother was a full blooded Nakohodotsi Caddo. To those of you not in the know, that means she was Native American.

Her name was Delma Lee <surname deleted because I can>. Yeah ... that's right ... Delma Lee. Not "Shoves Eagle Feathers up her ass", but a simple "Delma Lee".

The Spaniards, ie. the Europeans, started hanging out with us in the 1530s. That's 500 years go!

My question: Why am I any less Native American than someone whose people first met with White people 100 years ago? Why are there people out there who believe that they're "more Natve" simply because their people have glorious stories of fighting the American advances? What about those of us who were conquered before an "America" even existed?

*coff*

Why is the subject of "Dances With Wolves" or, as I like to call it "Dance for Three Hours", more Native than anyone else?

Discuss.

Culture. Your grandma's culture was closer to the original culture than your culture today. That's why she's "more native" and you're "more international".

Culture. Your grandma's culture was closer to the original culture than your culture today. That's why she's "more native" and you're "more international".

Now ... you're not allowed to give an actual answer that makes sense. :p

After all, yogurt is a culture. :D

Because your grandmother had a name that was simple and not some annoying stereotype. Now, if she had been named Throws Dogs in the Path of Charging Buffalo, then you'd be native.
But, being a Delma, her name just isn't stupid enough to qualify her for bitchy "victim" status.

Throws Dogs in the Path of Charging Buffalo

Dude ... that made me laugh out loud. Now I wish to be called that. From now on, you must refer to me as that. :D "Throws Dogs in the Path of Charging Buffalo" Keruvalia. hehehehhehe

Now ... you're not allowed to give an actual answer that makes sense. :p

After all, yogurt is a culture. :D
..................................

-_-'''

I'm part American Indian and I was born here. I'm just as "Native American" as anyone else that was born in the US.

Technically, American Indians aren't "Native Americans" either, since our ancestors came over on the Bering Strait land bridge.

I F'N HATE overly PC bullshit. :headbang:

I'm part American Indian and I was born here. I'm just as "Native American" as anyone else that was born in the US.

Technically, American Indians aren't "Native Americans" either, since our ancestors came over on the Bering Strait land bridge.

I F'N HATE overly PC bullshit. :headbang:

Hahaha! Libertarian!

Oh wait ... damnit ... you're right as well!

You were born on this land and, thus, you are native to this land. I guarantee you, though, that there are those who think that just because you have paler skin you, therefore, have no claim to this dirt.

Amazing how skin color will lead to such discrimination.

In any event, at some point in the future (depending on politicians) the term Native American will be passed onto another culture that predated any current Native American culture by several thousand years. I wish I could remember the name of the discovery, but it has been successfully dated back in excess of 5000 years and is of Asian descent. New thought is now that man migrated from Asia to North America via where the Berring Straight was origionally connected to Asia and southward from there. They claim these people are the new "Real Native Americans". Now how these scientists are going to find an ancestor of these people is completely beyond me, unless of course there is some sort of link they can find in the DNA string of the older bones. Either way, it would still take an act of congress to take the Native American title away.

I think the point I'm trying to make here is: Why is older better?

My people settled here, learned how to farm the land here, and even set up diplomatic ties with the other people in the area long before anyone else came around.

We were farmers. Our knowledge was passed on in how to grow veggies and prepare the land for the next seasonal harvest - a knowledge that is still in use today. Nothing special or mystical. We didn't wear great feather hats and sit proudly on our thrones with thousands of years of mystical religion ...

Why are we seen as less by even those of the northern tribes?

I'm part American Indian and I was born here. I'm just as "Native American" as anyone else that was born in the US.

Technically, American Indians aren't "Native Americans" either, since our ancestors came over on the Bering Strait land bridge.:

Well using that standard nobody's a native anything. :rolleyes:

I'm part Cherokee but it's only about a sixteenth so means next to nothing. I really wonder how many "white" people have native american ancestors. It seems to be a substantial number.

I don't think I even understand what the question is. Who said you were "less native" than whom? I'm not getting you at all.

I'm part Cherokee but it's only about a sixteenth so means next to nothing.

Not true!

My tribe's philosophy is that if you have even a drop of Native blood, you should live like it.

I don't know what the current trend in the White created "Cherokee Nation" believe, but I will tell you that if you know you have Native bood, then you are Native.

PERIOD.

:D

Well if you want to get technical. Native Americans were mixed races as well. DNA sampling of pre-contact Natives(Pre-1492) show signs of Asian, African and European genes. So its difficult to really say what or where the peoples of N America and S America have there roots. Would like to think they are the original American melting pot.

I don't think I even understand what the question is. Who said you were "less native" than whom? I'm not getting you at all.

Wait for it.

Not true!

My tribe's philosophy is that if you have even a drop of Native blood, you should live like it.

I don't know what the current trend in the White created "Cherokee Nation" believe, but I will tell you that if you know you have Native bood, then you are Native.

PERIOD.

:D

BTW

I thought you were muslim.

BTW

I thought you were muslim.

What does that have to do with anything? I am Muslim, yes. My Father is Caddo and my Mother is Jewish/Irish.

Muslim is not a bloodline. :p

What does that have to do with anything? I am Muslim, yes. My Father is Caddo and my Mother is Jewish/Irish.

Muslim is not a bloodline. :p


Of course muslim is not a bloodline. Just checking and keeping you straight.

Of course muslim is not a bloodline. Just checking and keeping you straight.

Keeping me straight? What ... you thought I'd go Gay? :D

Keeping me straight? What ... you thought I'd go Gay? :D

hehe a gay muslim? Hmmm...

My great grandfather on mothers side was American Indian, Whitlock. Hunts are in there somewhere also. I don't know too much about him really, other than he was in law enforcement (not sure exactly if he was a sheriff or deputy etc.) near Coolemee(sp?) in Mocksville, NC.

My two great-grandmothers were Catawba and Cherokee. I don't make much out of that - it's just genetics.

Just as well I don't take this seriously or my firstborn son would have his head bound to a board. The Catawba flattened the skulls of their warriors. Regular conehead types.

Liverbreath']In any event, at some point in the future (depending on politicians) the term Native American will be passed onto another culture that predated any current Native American culture by several thousand years. I wish I could remember the name of the discovery, but it has been successfully dated back in excess of 5000 years and is of Asian descent. New thought is now that man migrated from Asia to North America via where the Berring Straight was origionally connected to Asia and southward from there. They claim these people are the new "Real Native Americans". Now how these scientists are going to find an ancestor of these people is completely beyond me, unless of course there is some sort of link they can find in the DNA string of the older bones. Either way, it would still take an act of congress to take the Native American title away.
?

American Indians first migrated to the Americas about 20,000 years ago.

Yet another one of the minorities I belong to and don't look it, I'm part Native American (Indian, Redskin, whatfuckingever.)

Do I look it? No. Would I qualify for Federal aid? Yup. Do I ask for it? Nope. Do I consider that part of my identity? Nope, except to mention I'm one-eight.

But I consider myself more of a Hebrew than anything else.

Oh, and thats my ethnicity. My nationality is 100% American.

...American Mutt, Purebred Mutt.

I support Bacteria...its the only culture some people have!

(pointless...)

Seriously, this thread was done and over with after post 2...which was kind of a pity, because Keruvalia really seemed ready to crawl up someone's behind the moment they said something "wrong" ;)

I'm part Native American, but no one in my family has lived "traditionally" since before the revolution. Most people just assume I'm part Japanese. I thought it was kind of hypocritical to ask for any kind of federal aid for school or tax purposes because I'm so far removed from the culture. No one related to me has ever lived on a reservation, even in the distant past. Some of my Native ancestors were officers in the Confederate Army, so I guess they were more oppressors than the stereotypical downtrodden Indian.

I'm part American Indian and I was born here. I'm just as "Native American" as anyone else that was born in the US.

Technically, American Indians aren't "Native Americans" either, since our ancestors came over on the Bering Strait land bridge.

I F'N HATE overly PC bullshit. :headbang:


I agree. I dont care. Next we'll need special bathrooms and parking places.

Lets micro manage and strangle the living shit out of everything.

I am a Lairmarriner. Oh hang on a sec thats Australian.
But we do share similar probs, especially the whole argument about who is a cultural native and who is not. And it seriously shits me to tears. If white people are seen without their woad and battleaxes are they any less traditional and cultured as their ancestors. Its all about this stupid cult of the exotic. Unless you fit some bs cultural mode you are not a cultural/traditional native. We have changed and developed just as much as any other ethnic group, just because I wear clothes and not red ochre doesnt make me any less Aboriginal than my ancestors.

I also have Irish blood in me, but the fact is I dont live in Ireland, I live in Australia so why would I choose to be Irish.

But as an antrhopologist I dont really believe in culture so much, therefore do as you fricken please.

*snip*
Well Keru, you've broached a touchy subject, so... *touch, touch, touch*

Alright. I'm going to give you my opinion on the subject.

First some background. I'm half Cree. My mother is a full blood, Paul Band Cree. My father is white-bread Irish. My family lived off Reservation because my parents thought we would have more opportunities that way, and sadly, it was true. However, we have strong ties to the Reservation, because many family members still remain. Nonetheless, I have always been a bit between worlds. At school, I was considered by the white kids to be one of the 'Indians'. To the other native kids there, I was one of the 'white kids'. Joy of joys for me, I was the only half-breed, so I didn't have a middle group to hang out with. Anytime someone wanted to stop hanging out with me, they'd pull the race card. I'd say I got it pretty equally on both sides.

However, I still had that tie to my native heritage, while I had no real tie to my Irish heritage. So, even though my fellow natives loved to call me half-breed, they never pushed it TOO far, because one of my aunts would kick their ass:) Some of these little shits were my cousins...and you know how family is...they can be a pain, but they're still family. If it ever came down to a fight against 'outsiders', they had my back. Not so with the white kids.

So here is my opinion on 'Indianess':

1) Blood. Blood is important, but not all important. Oh, there will always be those who like to gloat about their percentage of 'true' blood over others, but we can, and do adopt people into our tribes and families that have NO native blood. Blood is a touchy issue too, because it is used by our government to label us. It forces us to remain insular, and not marry too far out of our own people, because eventually, we lose our status as natives, the less 'pure' we become. No other group faces the eventuality of legal extinction through intermarriage the way we do. So you can have 100% native blood, or none at all. That alone does not make you 'native'. The pureblood is of native ancestry, no doubt, but blood alone does not an Indian make.

2) Culture. This is the more important aspect, in my mind. Take that pureblood, for example. If she was adopted out, and raised in a non-native family, never learning native traditions, meeting few native people, knowing about as much of Native culture as any other non-native Canadian, then I would not consider this person to be native. Not culturally. She will always be native in terms of blood...and will have MORE right to learn later about her culture, and be accepted into the tribe that a non-native.

Those will smidgeons of native blood, and little to no actual REAL native culture (authentic, not textbook learned, that means the traditions, AND the modern reality) are NOT NATIVE. Yes, they have some blood, so they have some native heritage, but unless they are actively accepted into a tribe AS A NATIVE, they can not claim to BE native, or to speak for natives.

So no offense Keru, but to me, you are not native. You are someone with native heritage, mixed in with all your other heritages. That you can claim, and rightfully so. What you can not claim, is to be one of us.

Oh, and by the way, unlike our USian cousins, Canadian Natives never translated their names into English, which is why you'll find few of us with last names like "Runningbear" or "Rainbowfish". We always laugh when we come across names like this...they really lose something in the translation!

i live in new mexico

we have 3 general fairly meaningless terms for the dominant ethnicities here

anglo...white people who grew up speaking english (regardless of british bloodlines, even a guy with a german last name is an anglo if he grew up speaking english)

hispanic ..those with spanish surnames or a parent with a spanish surname. (thus making bill richardson hispanic even with an english surname)

native american/indian... we have a dozen or so different indian nations here. they are all known by their tribe/pueblo names as individuals. you are indian if you officially belong to a tribe/pueblo, if you have an indian parent or grandparent. if you feel that you are close enough in lineage to call yourself "indian". if you call yourself native but cant claim a particular tribe, then you probably arent eh?

plus all the other groups that everyone is familiar with

so as far as im concerned (and why would anyone care what i think?) you are "native american" if you are accepted by a tribe (no matter what your lineage, that is the tribes business not mine), or if both your parents are native. you can claim some kind of indian status if you know the name and tribe of a direct ancestor who was actually an indian. as in, "my grammy rose was full blood navajo, i loved her indian fry bread". if all you can say is "my great-grandmother was half indian, probably miqmaq" (as i can) you arent native american. you just have some indian blood.

Because your grandmother had a name that was simple and not some annoying stereotype. Now, if she had been named Throws Dogs in the Path of Charging Buffalo, then you'd be native.
But, being a Delma, her name just isn't stupid enough to qualify her for bitchy "victim" status.

Bullshit. And I just LOVE the stereotypical, ridiculous names you're coming up with here. Keru's GRANDMOTHER was native. That doesn't make Keru native. And "bitchy victim status"? I'd like you to explain that.

What you can not claim, is to be one of us.

You're right. I can't claim to be Cree ... anymore than you can claim to be Caddo. I know nothing of your culture and you know nothing of mine.

However, that's not what you meant. How, exactly, was I not raised on Caddo tradition?

I'm part American Indian and I was born here. I'm just as "Native American" as anyone else that was born in the US.

Technically, American Indians aren't "Native Americans" either, since our ancestors came over on the Bering Strait land bridge.

I F'N HATE overly PC bullshit. :headbang:
Well frankly, Native American is a lot better than, "Injun", "Wagon Burner", "Prarie ******", "Savage", or any of the other terms we've been called over the years. We used to just be called, "The People", but that has had to change, just as we have. We are still searching for a way to define ourselves. You might call it PC, but it's a part of growing into modernity. Right now, Native American refers to people with "indian" ancestry...not just those born in the US. Maybe it's not entirely accurate, but given the alternatives, I'll take it.

And now YOU'RE claiming to be Indian?

Oh, and by the way, unlike our USian cousins, Canadian Natives never translated their names into English, which is why you'll find few of us with last names like "Runningbear" or "Rainbowfish". We always laugh when we come across names like this...they really lose something in the translation!


But theres always Milton Born-With-A-Tooth.......















Or Billy Two-Willies on the Air Farce.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

You were born on this land and, thus, you are native to this land. I guarantee you, though, that there are those who think that just because you have paler skin you, therefore, have no claim to this dirt.

Amazing how skin color will lead to such discrimination.
Give me a fricking break. Europeans invade the Americas, and STOLE THE LAND. THAT is why some don't consider you to have a right to 'claim' this land as your own. Yet we compromise. We were never all truly against Europeans settling here. We WERE and ARE against being the victims of genocide and oppression, of broken promises and treaties, and your pity, disgust, and prejudice.

I cant agree with oyu Sinhue and I would make a logical rebuttle If I werent so tired.
Instead you get this load of ol cobblers.

Who defines culture? Is culture doing what your ancestors did, or what your people DO? I believe in the "Modern Aborigine", or the "Urban Native". But I am not of course saying those who live a "traditional" life are fools living a dream, just you cant exclude those who do not live on a reservation or what ever you have in America (we can actually OWN the land in Australia, not some filthy government,...its just bloody hard to get it)

What is culture? Is it everything from language to dance. If so then alot of people can not be considered native as so many of these languages have been lost.

What about non-native learners? By your rhetoric a non-native who was bought up in a native family and learnt the traditions and all that is just as much of a native as anyone else in the group. Actually I agree with this to some extent but it is still a bit dodgey.

That probably made no sense but whatever.

Give me a fricking break. Europeans invade the Americas, and STOLE THE LAND. THAT is why some don't consider you to have a right to 'claim' this land as your own. Yet we compromise. We were never all truly against Europeans settling here. We WERE and ARE against being the victims of genocide and oppression, of broken promises and treaties, and your pity, disgust, and prejudice.

Funny opinion you have on that. Our tribe never believed land could be owned. It's just dirt, nothing more. It provides while we're alive, but we can't take it with us when we die.

How do you steal something that isn't owned?

Broken promises, treaties, genocide, all that, sure, nasty business. It's over now, though. At least it's over from the European perspective. One Indian telling another Indian they're not Indian enough doesn't exactly set the stage for future progress, eh?

Liverbreath']In any event, at some point in the future (depending on politicians) the term Native American will be passed onto another culture that predated any current Native American culture by several thousand years. I wish I could remember the name of the discovery, but it has been successfully dated back in excess of 5000 years and is of Asian descent. New thought is now that man migrated from Asia to North America via where the Berring Straight was origionally connected to Asia and southward from there. They claim these people are the new "Real Native Americans". Now how these scientists are going to find an ancestor of these people is completely beyond me, unless of course there is some sort of link they can find in the DNA string of the older bones. Either way, it would still take an act of congress to take the Native American title away.

Eventually, they are only going to be 'allowed' to use this term to refer to the first people that we are ALL descended from. So what? The fact is, however people try to justify it, my people lived on this land first, and were displaced. No amount of speculation as to whether or not we 'invaded' the original inhabitants (more likely, we would have rarely bumped into them on this vast continent, or if we did, warred with them and/or intermarried with them) is going to take away our claim to this land. Yet...do you hear us saying, "Alright now, everyone off but us?" No. We accept that you people are here to stay, and we even intermarry with you. We are not some hostile force of angry warriors waiting to kick you out. What we DO want is some recognition as to our RIGHTS to this land, and some recognition that despite the years of trying to assimilate us, we remain culturally different than you, and while you might wish all cultures would just get used to the 'new culture', that is never going to happen. We are not Chinese, Pakistani, Carribean, German etc...we are natives, indians, first nations, aboriginals, indigenous, whatever. And THIS is our home country.

I think the point I'm trying to make here is: Why is older better?

My people settled here, learned how to farm the land here, and even set up diplomatic ties with the other people in the area long before anyone else came around.
Your people...as though you belong to just one group. I love that. You pull out your native ancestry when it suits you, but the rest of the time, you can go around being white. THAT is the difference. You have no cultural claim to be calling yourself native. It isn't about 'older is better'. It's about 'fakes not welcome, thank you very much'. We have enough shit to deal with without people running around claiming to be one of us, when THEY can go back to their regular middle-class lifestyle anytime they want. WE can not.

We were farmers. Our knowledge was passed on in how to grow veggies and prepare the land for the next seasonal harvest - a knowledge that is still in use today. Nothing special or mystical. We didn't wear great feather hats and sit proudly on our thrones with thousands of years of mystical religion ... No. THEY were/are farmers. Not you.

Why are we seen as less by even those of the northern tribes?Not they. YOU.

Not true!

My tribe's philosophy is that if you have even a drop of Native blood, you should live like it.

I don't know what the current trend in the White created "Cherokee Nation" believe, but I will tell you that if you know you have Native bood, then you are Native.

PERIOD.

:D
Says the white man. :rolleyes:

I think most people realise it is more than having a drop of native blood and calling yourself native.

Do I look it? No. Would I qualify for Federal aid? Yup. Do I ask for it? Nope. Do I consider that part of my identity? Nope, except to mention I'm one-eight.


There you go. Someone honest. You have native blood in you. Does that make you native? No.

Assimilation, genocide and dispossesion failed miserably. The Indigenous nations of the world are as strong today as ever.

Your people...as though you belong to just one group. I love that. You pull out your native ancestry when it suits you, but the rest of the time, you can go around being white. THAT is the difference. You have no cultural claim to be calling yourself native. It isn't about 'older is better'. It's about 'fakes not welcome, thank you very much'. We have enough shit to deal with without people running around claiming to be one of us, when THEY can go back to their regular middle-class lifestyle anytime they want. WE can not.


I grew up farming the land. I still grow all of the vegetables my family eats. My upbringing taught me our tribal traditions and I grew up around the tribe. Not on reservation as our tribe was never displaced. Assimilated, sure, but never displaced. We're still on the same land we'd been on for centuries and many Caddo own traditional tribal land.

I'm thinking this is part of the problem. I mean ... what do you mean "we" and "us"? Since when do you know thing one about the Caddo people? Speak for your own tribe, fine, but you can't speak for me or mine.

I am a Lairmarriner. Oh hang on a sec thats Australian.
But we do share similar probs, especially the whole argument about who is a cultural native and who is not. And it seriously shits me to tears. If white people are seen without their woad and battleaxes are they any less traditional and cultured as their ancestors. Its all about this stupid cult of the exotic. Unless you fit some bs cultural mode you are not a cultural/traditional native. We have changed and developed just as much as any other ethnic group, just because I wear clothes and not red ochre doesnt make me any less Aboriginal than my ancestors.

I like your part about the cult of the exotic. I think this is what makes people want to claim to be part of a particular culture...the idea that it is more interesting than their own. I mean, if you have a child who is pakistani, but was raised by native parents...the child is still pakistani, but not culturally so. Her culture will be more native.

As for 'traditional culture'...there IS no TRADITIONAL CULTURE anymore. Those times are gone. But that doesn't make our present culture any less valid. We have aspects of the old, mixed in with the new, but more than this is our shared experiences. Reservations. Residential schools. Abuse, alcoholism, racism, urban living, country living, elders, blood quotas, political disputes, etc etc etc. People don't go around claiming to be part of black American ghetto culture...so why do they want to pretend to be part of ours? Don't they see the problems we face? Don't they realise that even if they wanted to, they couldn't truly take those problems on themselves as one of us? And why the hell would they? People want to take the benefits (like they outweigh the drawbacks)...things like bursuries for natives, things like 'exotic' native spirituality, things like, being able to speak as a minority instead of the majority. Ridiculous.

Says the white man. :rolleyes:


Guess what, babe ... you're just as white as I am.

You're right. I can't claim to be Cree ... anymore than you can claim to be Caddo. I know nothing of your culture and you know nothing of mine.

However, that's not what you meant. How, exactly, was I not raised on Caddo tradition?
How, exactly, were you?

And now YOU'RE claiming to be Indian?
*hands you a shoehorn so you can get your head out*

I've always claimed it. I've claimed it before on threads here on NS. I'm 1/8th. Four tribes: Kiowa Shawondassee, Cherokee, Apache and Comanche...mixed in with Dutch and Irish...and a tiny spattering of English, German, Russian and Jew.

Pardon me if I didn't hold up a sign, holler and have a fricken pride parade to let everyone know I'm part Am. Indian. :rolleyes:

Oh, and by the way, unlike our USian cousins, Canadian Natives never translated their names into English, which is why you'll find few of us with last names like "Runningbear" or "Rainbowfish". We always laugh when we come across names like this...they really lose something in the translation!


I heard your REAL last name was "where the frog squats by the brook".

The one thing that I see that is going to harm Native culture, take in mind that I haven't been outside of Australia, is the appropriation of culture. If someone with a little bit of native blood says, iam Indigenous, so what. But if some dope-smokin' swedish tourist thinks they are all spiritual or follow the Dreamtime (which is a whitemans word not ours) and the culture is slowly lost to tourist agencies selling us off then that is a huge prob. I love to share my culture with my friends and if I could learn Cherokee I would, but me and my mates know the boundaries.
Just look at our Sami friends. Their culture is one of the most appropriated in the world, fricken Santa Claus the bastard. Because of that outside forces are dictating what is Sami culture and what is not. Of course their Nordic neigbours are in the same boat now as everyone is talking about trolls and elves and Thor outside of the cultural world where they once resided and are now part of something else.

How, exactly, were you?

Well ... let's see ...

I was taught to farm the land and to respect it. Learned how to watch the sun and use it as a guide for when and how to plant, when to water, to always walk the soil barefoot because the way it feels determines what should be planted there (cucumbers like smooth, beans more grainy, etc), and even which season to plant certain things. Also learned what plants would sap more energy from the soil and, thus, that spot could not be planted again for a season.

I was taught never to eat deer because they are brother to our family.

I was taught an absolute and binding respect for nature.

There is no Caddo religion - just a smattering of animal spirit stories and such of the like - no deep mysticism. There is traditionally no Caddo hierarchy or tribal council, though one had to be established so we could gain tribal recognition and not be lumped in with the Cherokee and Comanche.

What more do you want? Should my tribe be more like yours that we gain your acceptance? My grandmother, who died in 1999, was one of the last pure blooded Nakos left. Earlier this year, the last pure blood died at 93.

So would you then say our entire tribe simply doesn't exist anymore, even though our culture and traditions live on in the blue eyed children of the mixed breeds?

What do you think, half breed?

What do you think, half breed?


Are you kidding?

Are you kidding?

No. She's as white as I am, yet claims to be a superior native. I'm trying to figure out why.

Who defines culture? Is culture doing what your ancestors did, or what your people DO? I believe in the "Modern Aborigine", or the "Urban Native". But I am not of course saying those who live a "traditional" life are fools living a dream, just you cant exclude those who do not live on a reservation or what ever you have in America (we can actually OWN the land in Australia, not some filthy government,...its just bloody hard to get it)
Culture is a blend of what your ancestors did, and what your people now do. It is not the same for everyone. I don't pretend to understand the culture of urban natives...they are just as out of place hunting with the reservation natives as white kids are. Native culture is not one thing. But part of it is race. Part of it is being identifiably native...and treated that way, for good, but more often, for ill. Our culture (and I say ours, speaking of various tribes, because despite our differences, we share many common experiences), is not easily definable, but here are some aspects that can be included:

- most natives are clearly a member of the minority. They 'look' native and are easily identified as such.

- natives are aware of the break in their culture from the traditional ways to the 'modern ways'...but we aren't really sure what the modern ways are. Our parents, or our grandparents were first-hand receivers of 'assimiliation' attempts. Residential schools, or policies that repressed language and culture. Now we are fighting to get it back, but we don't really know how.

- urban natives/country natives. Many of us are off reserve, but we still grow up with stigmas...some of which are based in reality. Drug abuse, alcoholism, sexual and domestic abuse...we are on the outside looking in. We know we are different, but we aren't exactly sure why.

- family means something different to us. We band together, because we are a communal people, or we band together because no one else wants us. Individuality is not strength, it is weakness.

Now, there can be variations. We may be more traditional, or less, we may share the same goals, or not, but we are not like others. Just like Chinese people, born in China or in Canada, with traditional or modern views, still share some aspects of the same culture, so do we. You can not just jump in and 'be Chinese'...and why would you want to? So why would you jump in and 'be native'?

PS: sorry for the delays here...there is quite an office 'furor' about the recent gay marriage bill that passed last night, and I'm fighting RL battles with bigots here:).

PS: sorry for the delays here...there is quite an office 'furor' about the recent gay marriage bill that passed last night, and I'm fighting RL battles with bigots here:).


Good God, woman-you're a regular Lifted Lorax.

Funny opinion you have on that. Our tribe never believed land could be owned. It's just dirt, nothing more. It provides while we're alive, but we can't take it with us when we die.

How do you steal something that isn't owned?
Nice try. I never said we owned the land, just that we have rights to it. And when I say stole, I don't mean, steal if from the original owner, I mean take possession of, and in doing so, take away our rights to land. Some of that is being reversed...generally natives can still hunt where others can't. We should not, however, be made to PAY for land that was once accessible to us freely. Which is why land claims exist...to provide traditional TERRITORIES (re: NOT LAND, BUT AREA) and boundaries within the system we have had to assimilate to. We don't want to have title to land, but if that is the only way we can ensure our continuity, we'll take it.

Broken promises, treaties, genocide, all that, sure, nasty business. It's over now, though. At least it's over from the European perspective. One Indian telling another Indian they're not Indian enough doesn't exactly set the stage for future progress, eh?
It isn't over. To say so shows a staggering ignorance of the present reality, shaped by the past. And some of that past is not that old. The last Residential school in the NWT closed in 1993. They were abusing native children systematically only 12 years ago.

As for "one Indian telling another they aren't Indian enough"...do you really think that is what this is about? There are certainly those who hold themselves higher because of blood quota...and there are all sorts of political divisions we can discuss, but face it. You're talking about yourself. So what I want to know, Keru is why you are calling yourself Indian. Is it because you have some native blood? Is it because you 'feel' native? What? I want to understand your motivation. I can't deny you a membership card into the "indian family", but I also can't fathom why you think it is so important that others believe you are native? What do you want?

Assimilation, genocide and dispossesion failed miserably. The Indigenous nations of the world are as strong today as ever.
As strong? Not really. Changed, most certainly...and some nations no longer exist. Some are stronger than others. Still here? Yes. Undeniably. But not the same.

I grew up farming the land. I still grow all of the vegetables my family eats. My upbringing taught me our tribal traditions and I grew up around the tribe. Not on reservation as our tribe was never displaced. Assimilated, sure, but never displaced. We're still on the same land we'd been on for centuries and many Caddo own traditional tribal land.

I'm thinking this is part of the problem. I mean ... what do you mean "we" and "us"? Since when do you know thing one about the Caddo people? Speak for your own tribe, fine, but you can't speak for me or mine.
No, I can't...nor am I speaking for the Caddo. I'm speaking as a Cree, but I am also speaking as an aboriginal person. That is who I am, that is my identity. Yours seems to change every couple of weeks...I understand the need to search and to find a place and community...but again...what is your purpose in naming yourself Native?

Guess what, babe ... you're just as white as I am.
Half-breed that I am...:)

Go ahead...claim to be native. If it makes you feel better, fine. But don't expect me to buy what you're selling.

I can't deny you a membership card into the "indian family", but I also can't fathom why you think it is so important that others believe you are native?

It's a point of curiosity. It's not important that anyone believe me on anything, but it is a curiousity point that one particular Native would state that another Native can't claim "one of us" status with nothing to base it on.

No. She's as white as I am, yet claims to be a superior native. I'm trying to figure out why.


With all due respect, my friend-you've claimed to other things at other times. Now while it doesnt really matter much to me, I can remember on more than one occasion you personally questioning me personally, while maintaining you were something you were not.
Now you're questioning her as an individual.

And some of us lay off, sitting and wondering when the "I'm sorry I'm not really an Indian" thread will appear.

And a week later the "Ask a Romanian Gyspy" thread will pop up.

I am not making this a personal attack-more just giving the perspective of people watching this exchange and what they might expect.

*hands you a shoehorn so you can get your head out*

I've always claimed it. I've claimed it before on threads here on NS. I'm 1/8th. Four tribes: Kiowa Shawondassee, Cherokee, Apache and Comanche...mixed in with Dutch and Irish...and a tiny spattering of English, German, Russian and Jew.

Pardon me if I didn't hold up a sign, holler and have a fricken pride parade to let everyone know I'm part Am. Indian. :rolleyes:
Sorry Tex, it was kind of a joke, but I didn't make that clear.

Yours seems to change every couple of weeks...

Ermmmm ... no it doesn't.

I heard your REAL last name was "where the frog squats by the brook".
See what gets lost in translation? It's SHITS by the brook! Sheesh! :D

Half-breed that I am...:)

Go ahead...claim to be native. If it makes you feel better, fine. But don't expect me to buy what you're selling.
Great... so you've turned into one of the "Native" elitests that you complained about when you were growing up...the ones that called you "white" when you're half.

*ugh*...sickening.

What we DO want is some recognition as to our RIGHTS to this land, and some recognition that despite the years of trying to assimilate us, we remain culturally different than you, and while you might wish all cultures would just get used to the 'new culture', that is never going to happen. We are not Chinese, Pakistani, Carribean, German etc...we are natives, indians, first nations, aboriginals, indigenous, whatever. And THIS is our home country.

You know who Ted Moses (google search for everybody) is. Chief Ted Moses is always dressed in the sharpest of three piece suits. Why not wear native dress?

stone age living is not cool.

See what gets lost in translation? It's SHITS by the brook! Sheesh! :D

Thats a poor practice for someone who is supposed to be in touch with nature.

I once heard that indians werent really so in touch with nature after all.

I heard they wasted a lot when they killed a buffalo- they actually used the horns as fake buck teeth, the fatty hump as a door stop and the hides as kites. To me. This is a waste.




(joking)

The one thing that I see that is going to harm Native culture, take in mind that I haven't been outside of Australia, is the appropriation of culture. If someone with a little bit of native blood says, iam Indigenous, so what. But if some dope-smokin' swedish tourist thinks they are all spiritual or follow the Dreamtime (which is a whitemans word not ours) and the culture is slowly lost to tourist agencies selling us off then that is a huge prob. I love to share my culture with my friends and if I could learn Cherokee I would, but me and my mates know the boundaries.
Just look at our Sami friends. Their culture is one of the most appropriated in the world, fricken Santa Claus the bastard. Because of that outside forces are dictating what is Sami culture and what is not. Of course their Nordic neigbours are in the same boat now as everyone is talking about trolls and elves and Thor outside of the cultural world where they once resided and are now part of something else.
Thank you. You've managed to say much more clearly and elegantly what is behind my anger and, I'll admit it, fear in terms of this issue. It is one thing to speak of a culture as one who has studied it, which I believe Keru has. But that study can never really be complete if it is purely academic. You can not say, "Cree people lived in teepees and hunted moose, went to Residential schools and lost their language" and so on, and really know who we are. You need to live it. You need to see/feel what it is to be constantly assumed an alcoholic, a drug addict, a PROSTITUTE (because a disproportionate amount are native), a pow-wow dancer, a mystic, a noble savage, a disgusting waste of tax money, a this, a that. We are labelled constantly, and as nice as it is to have people interested in a positive way in our culture, it is just as harmful to have people saying, "They are this (positive)" as "They are that (negative)" . If Keru wants to 'live native' fine. One can become close to the community, one can learn. But don't come off sounding like you actually grew up knowing what is like to be considered *insert all native stereotypes*.

So would you then say our entire tribe simply doesn't exist anymore, even though our culture and traditions live on in the blue eyed children of the mixed breeds?
I would say you've been bred out. Like many other tribes. How long will your traditions really exist? Who will learn your language? Who will pass on the elder's teachings?

This is a great fear, for us as well. The Cree are a strong group...we spread across many provinces, have schools in the Cree language, but we too are losing our elders, losing our ways. We can try to get them back, but it will never be the same. Our culture is changing, but one thing hasn't. And that is the racism we experience. The prejudice. Your blue eyed, children will not be looked on as Native. Be happy for that. You get to keep all the good things about the Caddo culture...and escape the bad. The rest of us are not so lucky.

What do you think, half breed?
I jokingly refer to myself this way, just as I will call myself 'Injun', or 'savage'. But I think you know what an insult this is. I'll leave it at that.

No. She's as white as I am, yet claims to be a superior native. I'm trying to figure out why.
Ah. I see. Now I'm white, and oppressing your native heritage. :rolleyes:


I really don't think this conversation could be happening in regards to any other ethnic group. It's kind of funny.

Good God, woman-you're a regular Lifted Lorax.
I'm in deep bible country here...and you know me...I can't help myself! Though I didn't disrupt that funeral like you thought I would! Hah!

I jokingly refer to myself this way, just as I will call myself 'Injun', or 'savage'. But I think you know what an insult this is. I'll leave it at that.

Its my opinion he knew exactly what he was saying.

But who am I to say anything? I call you names all the time.

I'm in deep bible country here...and you know me...I can't help myself! Though I didn't disrupt that funeral like you thought I would! Hah!


Good- I'm flattered you didnt mess it up-just to impress me.

I think I'm blushing...

Wait-Maybe you urged someone else to disrupt unwittingly, on your behalf?

It's a point of curiosity. It's not important that anyone believe me on anything, but it is a curiousity point that one particular Native would state that another Native can't claim "one of us" status with nothing to base it on.
Well, true...this being the Internet and all, I have no way of proving or disproving your claim. I guess, based on previous lies you've told, and your constantly shifting identity, I name you suspect. Were this RL, the issue would be easier to resolve. If you really wanted me, in particular, to think you were native (why you'd care in RL, I'm not sure), we could visit your family. Then we do the secret native handshake, and all is well :D

Depends on your motives Keru. If you want to have some sort of validity, speaking from a minority perspective, then yeah, I'd call you on it and demand proof. The very fact that you can walk around with no one picking you out as an ethnic minority alone gives you a special place above natives who can not escape their looks. If you simply want to embrace part of your heritage...fine...but on this forum at least, you tend to speak FOR natives a lot. Which is why I'm questioning this. I don't think it can be resolved to anyone's satisfaction, but I'm going to go on doubting your claims because you've already lied to others about other things...why not this as well? As you've repeatedly said...you can claim to be whatever you want on the internet. But we don't have to believe it.

I would say you've been bred out. Like many other tribes. How long will your traditions really exist? Who will learn your language? Who will pass on the elder's teachings?

Well ... I have four children who are learning and I would hope they'd have children some day and teach them as well. Our language was incorporated into Spanish a long time ago. Some things stick around, though. Even the word "Texas" is Caddo. But, when the Spanish came across us, we were pretty "savage". No written language, didn't have the wheel, spent most of the time naked (hey ... it gets hot in Texas), etc etc.

The rest of us are not so lucky.

Lucky?! Pfft ... nobody takes blue eyed white people seriously. How is that lucky? :p

I jokingly refer to myself this way, just as I will call myself 'Injun', or 'savage'. But I think you know what an insult this is. I'll leave it at that.

Yes, I'm aware, and I meant no offense. It's like me calling a Jewish friend Hebe or Kike.

Great... so you've turned into one of the "Native" elitests that you complained about when you were growing up...the ones that called you "white" when you're half.

*ugh*...sickening.
Take it in context Tex. Take it in context. Keru is a known liar, who likes to remind us that all personas on the internet are possible bullshit. I'm questioning Keru...not others who may have claim to native ancestry and/or heritage.

You know who Ted Moses (google search for everybody) is. Chief Ted Moses is always dressed in the sharpest of three piece suits. Why not wear native dress?

stone age living is not cool.
Canadian Natives also recently resisted the desire of our government to put us in traditional garb and parade us around for the Queen's visit. Traditional native dress has its place...but it doesn't define us.

I guess, based on previous lies you've told

Just the one, which I owned up to.

, and your constantly shifting identity

Only shifted once ... when I became Muslim. That didn't stop me from being the Caddo Irish Cajun Jew I've always claimed to be.

Then we do the secret native handshake, and all is well :D

lol

Depends on your motives Keru.

I have no motives. Never did, never will. It's a discussion forum ... I discuss. You, as reigning Rant Queen, should know this all too well. :p

Thats a poor practice for someone who is supposed to be in touch with nature.

I once heard that indians werent really so in touch with nature after all.

I heard they wasted a lot when they killed a buffalo- they actually used the horns as fake buck teeth, the fatty hump as a door stop and the hides as kites. To me. This is a waste.

Hahahahah...but it's actually true that native hunting practices were often (not always) very wasteful. TEK (traditional ecological knowledge) is deeply flawed as system to use today. We were so spread out, even with enormous waste in the buffalo jumps, for example, it didn't adversely impact herd numbers or fish stocks. However, with so many more people here, we can't just go around doing that sort of thing anymore, tradition or not. We have to discard wasteful traditional practices, and keep the good ones.

Canadian Natives also recently resisted the desire of our government to put us in traditional garb and parade us around for the Queen's visit. Traditional native dress has its place...but it doesn't define us.


MMm... no more topless Sinuhue in a deerskin loincloth?

Its my opinion he knew exactly what he was saying.

But who am I to say anything? I call you names all the time.
But you aren't actually trying to belittle me, or get me angry.

Good- I'm flattered you didnt mess it up-just to impress me.

I think I'm blushing...

Wait-Maybe you urged someone else to disrupt unwittingly, on your behalf?
Na...I haven't managed to train any good puppets in RL yet...give me time. I was good...but I thought a lot of bad thoughts...

"Shoves Eagle Feathers up her ass"


THAT is classic! LOL!

I grew up about 15 minutes from a Wisconsin Chippewa reservation... there were people with last names like Wildcat, Big John (native american-type names)... then there was the French influence evident in names like St. Germain and Daubon (d'-BON).

But you aren't actually trying to belittle me, or get me angry.

Neither am I.

Hahahahah...but it's actually true that native hunting practices were often (not always) very wasteful. TEK (traditional ecological knowledge) is deeply flawed as system to use today. We were so spread out, even with enormous waste in the buffalo jumps, for example, it didn't adversely impact herd numbers or fish stocks. However, with so many more people here, we can't just go around doing that sort of thing anymore, tradition or not. We have to discard wasteful traditional practices, and keep the good ones.


I know. I recently saw a disgusting show on men shooting buffalo from moving trains. I guess my idea of hunting is a little different.
At least native people were EATING the meat killed. The guys shooting from trains were just killing for the sake of killing and when they took an occaisonal hide, they left the carcass-meat and all, laying on the prarie.

But you aren't actually trying to belittle me, or get me angry.

Could you get any more little or angry?
*ducking*

MMm... no more topless Sinuhue in a deerskin loincloth?
Hon, this is Canada. The climate hasn't changed THAT much. We didn't go topless very often to begin with. :D

I know. I recently saw a disgusting show on men shooting buffalo from moving trains. I guess my idea of hunting is a little different.
At least native people were EATING the meat killed. The guys shooting from trains were just killing for the sake of killing and when they took an occaisonal hide, they left the carcass-meat and all, laying on the prarie.
Well yes, our purpose was to have meat and other animal materials for clothes and so on...but the buffalo jumps are perhaps a bad example, because so often, many more were run off to fall to their deaths than we could possibly use. The ones on the bottom were left to rot. Then again, with the plains covered with buffalo, conservation wasn't an issue.

Still..while we lived at the mercy of, and in tune with, nature...it doesn't mean we were the ultimate environmentalists. We just didn't have the numbers or the technology to impact the environment the way people do now.

Hon, this is Canada. The climate hasn't changed THAT much. We didn't go topless very often to begin with. :D


*sigh* but we still have the skimpy loin cloth, right?

I guess I'll have to renew my subscription to National Geogrphic if I ever want to see another topless native.

Could you get any more little or angry?
*ducking*
I will likely shrink in my dotage, curving over a bent spine courtesy of my grandmother...

...and I can ALWAYS get angrier.

*sigh* but we still have the skimpy loin cloth, right?

I guess I'll have to renew my subscription to National Geogrphic if I ever want to see another topless native.
Just be happy were were less clothed than our northern brothers...imagine trying to get under all that sealskin...

Well yes, our purpose was to have meat and other animal materials for clothes and so on...but the buffalo jumps are perhaps a bad example, because so often, many more were run off to fall to their deaths than we could possibly use. The ones on the bottom were left to rot. Then again, with the plains covered with buffalo, conservation wasn't an issue.

Still..while we lived at the mercy of, and in tune with, nature...it doesn't mean we were the ultimate environmentalists. We just didn't have the numbers or the technology to impact the environment the way people do now.

I thought native peoples dried a lot of meat. Some how. my impression of indians doesnt include leaving any significant amount of meat to rot. I would think they had long winters in mind.
Anyway-I know they likely didnt waste a fraction of the amount that the later "sportsmen" did.

Just be happy were were less clothed than our northern brothers...imagine trying to get under all that sealskin...


If it was a hot inuit girl, I'd be through that seal skin like a polar bear...

now-to more important things...lunch and what to have?
This bachelor's life can be sweet.

I thought native peoples dried a lot of meat. Some how. my impression of indians doesnt include leaving any significant amount of meat to rot. I would think they had long winters in mind.
Anyway-I know they likely didnt waste a fraction of the amount that the later "sportsmen" did.
No, they didn't waste as much as the sportsmen. But we could only carry so much meat with us, even dried. I'm talking sometimes a hundred or more buffalo killed during one run. And these are large animals. Every man, woman and child would have carried some significant rations with them, as well as having dogs pulling sleds with meat...but we still couldn't have possibly used it all.

However, not all natives had these buffalo runs, and had to hunt them one at a time. The buffalo jumps are the exception, not the rule to our hunting practices.

now-to more important things...lunch and what to have?
This bachelor's life can be sweet.
Where's the wife and kidlings?

I'm not a Native American but a couple of people have asked me if I am in the past, bizarrely enough. So, does that entitle me to any dirt? :D

I thought native peoples dried a lot of meat. Some how. my impression of indians doesnt include leaving any significant amount of meat to rot. I would think they had long winters in mind.
Anyway-I know they likely didnt waste a fraction of the amount that the later "sportsmen" did.
In those hunts it was an enormous amount of buffalo that jumped. There was no way to get to the bottom ones and, so, almost all the meat was wasted.

Actually, Americans were kind of wasteful, especially the early ones. They ate all the horses, camels, elephants and giant sloths in a few short centuries. Partly because the animals weren't used to humans hunting them and just stood there.

By the way, humans migrated to America in several waves and then there was a lot of nation forming and internal migration. The people living here in the 15th C had nothing at all to do with the ones 10,000 years earlier.

Not true!

My tribe's philosophy is that if you have even a drop of Native blood, you should live like it.

I don't know what the current trend in the White created "Cherokee Nation" believe, but I will tell you that if you know you have Native bood, then you are Native.

PERIOD.

:D


Thanks for pointing this out. I'm an 1/8th cherokee :)

In those hunts it was an enormous amount of buffalo that jumped. There was no way to get to the bottom ones and, so, almost all the meat was wasted.

Actually, Americans were kind of wasteful, especially the early ones. They ate all the horses, camels, elephants and giant sloths in a few short centuries. Partly because the animals weren't used to humans hunting them and just stood there.

By the way, humans migrated to America in several waves and then there was a lot of nation forming and internal migration. The people living here in the 15th C had nothing at all to do with the ones 10,000 years earlier.

Here is a link to validate some of the above information. You can use the link to trace the findings back to the original sources.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/3116_stoneage.html

Enjoy.

Thanks for pointing this out. I'm an 1/8th cherokee :)
Well hello my fellow Native:)[/jk]

Where's the wife and kidlings?

Away for a few days. Today, they are at the Aquarium. Doing some week day summer stuff.

Away for a few days. Today, they are at the Aquarium. Doing some week day summer stuff.
Well, the hubby is gone for three more weeks, so I'm doing the single-mom gig...but I'd much prefer a stint as a bacholorette! House stays cleaner that way! And the kids are always getting into my sage and wampum:).

Anyone else want to deal with this subject? Or have me recognise their 'Indianess'?

Well, the hubby is gone for three more weeks, so I'm doing the single-mom gig...but I'd much prefer a stint as a bacholorette! House stays cleaner that way! And the kids are always getting into my sage and wampum:).


My house is spotless. My wife cleaned really well before they left and aside from a bath towel and the bed before I make it, there is almost no sign of life in the house. I've been eating down by the ocean,so there are no dishes. Its so nice not to wade through toys, books and laundry.

But I do miss them.

But I do miss them.
Funny how that is...can't wait for them to leave you alone, and the second they do, you want them back!