NationStates Jolt Archive

I've decided to do a quick bit of research to see what newspapers around the world (and a few commments from readers of said newspapers) say about the US "occupation."

first: al-jazeera.net (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/79C622D5-FCCF-4628-9A25-A6DB8C1E26B8.htm)

Mr Saud figures that he has put his finger on the real culprit behind the misery of Iraqis, but he fails to outline the insurgency and true aims and support which gets its support from corrupt and unelected Middles Eastern governments.
Mazin Al-Baghdadi, Iraq

In the above article, i think Mr. Saud is trying to spread the insurgency and de-villianise them. But he believes the majority of Iraqi's want the US out of Iraq.

In this (http://www.pww.org/article/articleview/7271/1/275/) article, there are a few good points, which i think these are: For example, without consulting the elected National Assembly, Iraqi officials recently asked the UN Security Council to extend its U.S. occupation mandate, due to expire at the end of the year. This week, 82 Assembly members signed a letter objecting to that action, and demanded a clear timetable for withdrawal of troops. The signers spanned the political spectrum, including the Iraqi Communist Party. and The ICP says this schedule must be adhered to. The current government should come up with a timetable for a U.S. withdrawal to begin this December, with UN involvement, Ali said. “At the end of the year, the U.S. mandate ends,” he emphasized. “The new government that is constitutionally elected at the end of the year should be able to bring the occupation to an end.”
again, points stating that Iraqi's want the US "occupation" to end.

This is all i found right now, as work is getting busy and starting to pull me away from posting this :P but eh, what news articles can you guys find that support the withdrawal of US troops or supports the continued presence of US troops in Iraq.

(p.s., i don't care if it comes from fox news, nbc, abc, cnn, or drudgereport.com. As long as it isn't a satire site, and a generally recognized news source w/ facts being backed up in the articles)

*edit* the reason i started this thread is because we started getting into the discussion of who should be doing what in iraq, and should troops be pulled, etc in a different thread that had a different topic, so i figured i would try and bring it to a new thread.

Why is occupation surrounded by quotation marks? It is an occupation.

Saddam was not a nice man. That should go without saying, but he did keep a stable and functioning government. He kept street crime low. He made sure electricity and water were available for the people (at least the people he wasn't killing). We took that stability away. We have a responsibility to stay until a new stable and functioning government can be built. That's my opinion.

There is absolutely no choice but to stay. Stability is key.

Stability based on jailing and killing thousands of his own people a year for political reasons. He didn't keep the power and the water running; Iraq's infrastructure was a nightmare patchwork to start with, with few areas having reliable services. One of our major tasks is rebuilding that infrastructure, a task that would be a lot easier if non Iraqis didn't find it easier to blow up the work we accomplish instead of trying to attack "harder" targets. Saddam isn't Hitler, not only in the size of his scope of his atrocities(thousands vs millions) but in that he has failed to provide any significant benefits in terms of roads, power grids, and other construction projects to his people. If we find Hitler to be morally repugnant despite his "good side" then we have to find Saddam equally so.

Why is occupation surrounded by quotation marks? It is an occupation.

Fass, you should change your name 'fast'. As in, you're too damn fast for me to keep up!

Stability based on jailing and killing thousands of his own people a year for political reasons. He didn't keep the power and the water running; Iraq's infrastructure was a nightmare patchwork to start with, with few areas having reliable services. One of our major tasks is rebuilding that infrastructure, a task that would be a lot easier if non Iraqis didn't find it easier to blow up the work we accomplish instead of trying to attack "harder" targets. Saddam isn't Hitler, not only in the size of his scope of his atrocities(thousands vs millions) but in that he has failed to provide any significant benefits in terms of roads, power grids, and other construction projects to his people. If we find Hitler to be morally repugnant despite his "good side" then we have to find Saddam equally so.
1 Nobody's saying Saddam was a good man.

2 Iraq was a fairly modern and secular nation under Saddam.

3 He actually did a better job in providing basic services than many of his neighbors.

Anyway, don't you think we need to stay until Iraq is stable and it's government can provide basic services at least as well as Saddam did?

Fass, you should change your name 'fast'. As in, you're too damn fast for me to keep up!

My secret: tabbed browsing.

doesnt it seem only natural that the iraqis would want us out? even if they "like" us and appreciate being "liberated" they want their damned country back. who wouldnt?

u forget that under current occupation standard of living of the people is much worse than under saddam and more iraqis are dying today every day than under sadam..so get the hell out of there or die in the desert!!!

u forget that under current occupation standard of living of the people is much worse than under saddam and more iraqis are dying today every day than under sadam..so get the hell out of there or die in the desert!!!

And what do you think will happen if we do?

u forget that under current occupation standard of living of the people is much worse than under saddam and more iraqis are dying today every day than under sadam..so get the hell out of there or die in the desert!!!
Do you want to know what will happen if the coalition leaves right now? Civil war, terrorist training camps and rampant crime. It will look exactly like Afghanistan after the Soviets left. In a few years terrorists from there will begin attacking western targets.

The only possible solution is to stay and help build a stable democratic government that can protect Iraq from foreign and internal threats and provide services to the Iraqi people.

this people are not stupid they not need usa to tell them what to do.consensus will be made much easier and with Suni people too onboard..if there wasnt occupation army usa soldiers shooting everything around and killing the innocent !!!! the resistance would end and it would become more peacefull,for sure.

Do you want to know what will happen if the coalition leaves right now? Civil war, terrorist training camps and rampant crime. It will look exactly like Afghanistan after the Soviets left. In a few years terrorists from there will begin attacking western targets.

Look at what heppened in the 80's. We backed down in Lebanon and gave anti-American terrorists a morale boost that culminated in the 1993 WTC bombing, and also allowed the nation to fall firmly under Syrian domination.

I have to agree and disagree with differing points of view.

Agree:
Secular- Saddam played at being religious, which is a dangerous thing to do. Pick a side.
Create stability- Coalition forces are helping the Iraqi forces build and train more Iraqi forces. This is a kep point. We are not the only ones doing the heavy lifting there.

Disagree-
Occupation- Were the US an occupation force, we would be dictating terms to the country. Instead, we see lots of brave folks actually risking their own lives and those of their families to be a part of the new government.
Saddam providing for needs- We spend lots of time rebuilding what was damaged or destroyed, but more time helping the Iraqi build what was never there in the first place. Many of the things provided did not exisat a few years ago.

they bombed because u help israel all the time to send them guns to kill civilians palestinians every day! u dont see it on tv but it happeneds every day and about iraq i think that after 20 years of war vs iran kuwait gw#1, gw#2 and u.n. sanctions because of wich evry day a newborn died in iraq because no medical equipment was allowed i think peple are Tired of War anymore and they wont peace the conditions are good for peace but only if usa %uck off and get the %uck out of there!

this people are not stupid they not need usa to tell them what to do.consensus will be made much easier and with Suni people too onboard..if there wasnt occupation army usa soldiers shooting everything around and killing the innocent !!!! the resistance would end and it would become more peacefull,for sure.
I can't reply to this post the way I want to because I would get banned.

1 What makes you think that the Sunni would cooperate with the people the DOMINATED unless forced to? What makes you think the Kurds and Shiite would not take VENGANCE on those who oppressed them in the past?

2 Your libelous remarks about US troops are completely unsupported by fact and only show your ignorance and blatant prejudice.

3 Why would the resistance magically end? Notice that the suicide bombers don't target American troops anymore. They target the Shiia muslims. They target the water and electricity that people rely on. It's a civil war and you're too blind to see it.

I can't reply to this post the way I want to because I would get banned.

1 What makes you think that the Sunni would cooperate with the people the DOMINATED unless forced to? What makes you think the Kurds and Shiite would not take VENGANCE on those who oppressed them in the past?

2 Your libelous remarks about US troops are completely unsupported by fact and only show your ignorance and blatant prejudice.

3 Why would the resistance magically end? Notice that the suicide bombers don't target American troops anymore. They target the Shiia muslims. They target the water and electricity that people rely on. It's a civil war and you're too blind to see it.

DC, you put it better than I could.

ok good point but this what makes me right and u wrong ..the suni politicians have said they would participate if usa get out of iraq! kurd have a large autonomy and are satified with it and shias have the political power they deserve and hold key places in goverment..i AM with prejudice and so are u the usa soldiers killed lot of innocent iraqis so deal with it@! but they control media inside iraq and outside so u dont hear about it on cnn.resistance representatives told that cooperation with occupation is forbbiden and if done will be treated as treason!

they bombed because u help israel all the time to send them guns to kill civilians palestinians every day! u dont see it on tv but it happeneds every day and about iraq i think that after 20 years of war vs iran kuwait gw#1, gw#2 and u.n. sanctions because of wich evry day a newborn died in iraq because no medical equipment was allowed i think peple are Tired of War anymore and they wont peace the conditions are good for peace but only if usa %uck off and get the %uck out of there!
1 Who bombed who? Your first sentence makes no sence.

2 Palestinians continue to push for the elimination of Israel. The extermination of it's people even. I support Israel's right to exist. To that end I support them taking the necessary military action to defend themselves. I also recognize the LIES that palestinians spread to make themselves seem like innocent victims. Remember the non-existant massacre at Jenin?

3 The sanctions vs. Iraq allowed food and medical supplies through. The claim that they didn't is a blatant lie.

4 Most Iraqi people don't want war, but if the Insurgents do want war then the rest of the Iraqi people have no choice. Whether the US is there or not the insurgents will attack them and they will have to defend themselves. The difference is that without a US military presence the insurgents can attack with impunity and carry out more frequent and more destructive attacks.

ok good point but this what makes me right and u wrong ..the suni politicians have said they would participate if usa get out of iraq! kurd have a large autonomy and are satified with it and shias have the political power they deserve and hold key places in goverment..i AM with prejudice and so are u the usa soldiers killed lot of innocent iraqis so deal with it@! but they control media inside iraq and outside so u dont hear about it on cnn.resistance representatives told that cooperation with occupation is forbbiden and if done will be treated as treason!
If the USA got out of Iraq the terrorist insurgents would transform it into a wartorn wasteland like Afghanistan after the soviets left. Face facts. The USA is needed there right now. When the Iraqi government is stable and it can defend it's people we can leave.

ok good point but this what makes me right and u wrong ..the suni politicians have said they would participate if usa get out of iraq! kurd have a large autonomy and are satified with it and shias have the political power they deserve and hold key places in goverment..i AM with prejudice and so are u the usa soldiers killed lot of innocent iraqis so deal with it@! but they control media inside iraq and outside so u dont hear about it on cnn.resistance representatives told that cooperation with occupation is forbbiden and if done will be treated as treason!

Terrorists who cut off peoples' heads and kidnap innocent people for ransom are not a resistance. They are murderers.

Iraq is better off now than it ever was under Saddam, and the country is on track to a democratic government.

The media is not controlled by the US military; this is why there is an unending stream of reports about terrorist attacks and soliders killed.
(if it was controlled by the US military, we might hear some good news for once instead of defeatism.)

they bombed because u help israel all the time to send them guns to kill civilians palestinians every day! u dont see it on tv but it happeneds every day and about iraq i think that after 20 years of war vs iran kuwait gw#1, gw#2 and u.n. sanctions because of wich evry day a newborn died in iraq because no medical equipment was allowed i think peple are Tired of War anymore and they wont peace the conditions are good for peace but only if usa %uck off and get the %uck out of there!

Lol. You should make sure your sober before you start typing.

Let's empathise here (because that is how policy is supposed to be made). I'm not saying that I have a solution, but look at the situation.
Let's say that the USA is suddenly taken over by some tyranical government and oppressed for many years with genocide and the whole bit. Suddenly North Korea (whom you guys supposedly resent) decided to invade and overthrow the government and succeed. Yes you are free but you now answer to the Communists. American, the pacifists that they are, take to the streets and try to fight the N. Koreans in order stop the scary new idea of communism and eastern religion. Again you are free, but now eastern culture is being imposed upon you, you start to see american versions of N. Korean shows and music. The question the N. Koreans start to ask is will the USA succumb to communism. Would it? N. Korea thinks so and continues to fight endlessly to acheive it.
Now lets put it in prospective. To switch the tables around, it's not that Iraq has an affinity to communism, but it is used to fundamentalist middle eastern rule. It is not westernized. They do believe thier culture and original system of government (before Hussein) is supperior and want it.
I'm not saying that this is in any way supposed to make sense, however, it's a thought.
-Chris

If the USA got out of Iraq the terrorist insurgents would desintegrate within Face facts. The USA is not needed there right now. if u stay this will continue for next 20 years and stagnation of iraq will be permanent.and after u leave the people will go to civil war because of permanent usa presense they will get used to use Ak-47 and other weapons and become very angry at usa as the time slowely goes by and they live worse and worse and their women get raped by usa soldiers.ok you said the same thing in vietnam but it turned out differently and israel is killing for real every day boy children and everyone else who is palestinian.palestinian want a state so give it to them and stop building 5 meters tall walls around their backyards

Let's empathise here (because that is how policy is supposed to be made). I'm not saying that I have a solution, but look at the situation.
Now lets put it in prospective. To switch the tables around, it's not that Iraq has an affinity to communism, but it is used to fundamentalist middle eastern rule. It is not westernized. They do believe thier culture and original system of government (before Hussein) is supperior and want it.
I'm not saying that this is in any way supposed to make sense, however, it's a thought.
-Chris

You make a good argument, but there are some differences between the two.

The resistance in Iraq has little popular support. If it did, the entire country would be fighting us. Most of Iraq is stable. The majority are foreign fighters, Al-Qaeda, and Baathist elements left over from the regime, and so represent the extremist branch of Middle Eastern society. The people want democracy, and they want to be free. Their determination to create a government shows this.

I can't reply to this post the way I want to because I would get banned.


Maybe that old saying about trolls and their diet should be considered here.

If the USA got out of Iraq the terrorist insurgents would desintegrate within Face facts. The USA is not needed there right now. if u stay this will continue for next 20 years and stagnation of iraq will be permanent.and after u leave the people will go to civil war because of permanent usa presense they will get used to use Ak-47 and other weapons and become very angry at usa as the time slowely goes by and they live worse and worse and their women get raped by usa soldiers.ok you said the same thing in vietnam but it turned out differently and israel is killing for real every day boy children and everyone else who is palestinian.palestinian want a state so give it to them and stop building 5 meters tall walls around their backyards

The insurgency does not have popular support. They are almost all foreign extremists, ex-Saddam loyalists, and Al-Qaeda remnants. The majority of the country is stable. The quality of life is increasing and utilitites are coming back on after decades of mismangement by the corrupt Baath party.
The people no longer have to fear terror squads raping and killing their wives and mothers, torturing their husbands and fathers, and molesting their children along with seizing their property.

Name some cases of rape by US soliders. Otherwise, you are libeling the armed forces.

In Vietnam, the people were unified behind a real resistance, not a ragtag band of terrorists that only want power.

Terrorists who cut off peoples' heads and kidnap innocent people for ransom are not a resistance. They are murderers.

Iraq is better off now than it ever was under Saddam, and the country is on track to a democratic government.

The media is not controlled by the US military; this is why there is an unending stream of reports about terrorist attacks and soliders killed.
(if it was controlled by the US military, we might hear some good news for once instead of defeatism.)
exactly u are doing this same things in prisons torturing prisoners to death sometimes. and this peple will be freed if your troops just go away thats the easiest and best solution of the problem and u dont need a u.n. decision to do that LoL! iraq was better under saddam thae under occupation u never visited iraq so shut up!hahahaha if u belive in media freedom in iraq then u are really not so smart as u think.the country is on track to hell and how many more dead usa soldiers is needed for u to realise that 1000? 10000? 100000? 1.000.000?

If the USA got out of Iraq the terrorist insurgents would desintegrate within Face facts. The USA is not needed there right now. if u stay this will continue for next 20 years and stagnation of iraq will be permanent.and after u leave the people will go to civil war because of permanent usa presense they will get used to use Ak-47 and other weapons and become very angry at usa as the time slowely goes by and they live worse and worse and their women get raped by usa soldiers.ok you said the same thing in vietnam but it turned out differently and israel is killing for real every day boy children and everyone else who is palestinian.palestinian want a state so give it to them and stop building 5 meters tall walls around their backyards
1 No, the insurgents/terrorists wouldn't disappear if the USA left. The Insurgents/terrorists want a strict sunni theocracy. The shia and the kurds don't want to give it to them, so we will have unrestrained civil war.

2 Nobody's getting raped by US soldiers. You just keep spouting libelous hate, don't you?

3 Palestinians are killing Israeli kids every day. Palestinians fire mortars and rockets into civilian neighborhoods. They've shelled children's schools. They encourage their children to become suicide bombers. Israel should do whatever it takes to protect itself from them.

4 The wall has reduced Palestinian terrorism. The Israelis are pulling out of Gaza. If the Palestinians really want a state of their own and to live in peace nobody's stopping them. Unfortunately what they really want is to kill all the Jews and take back all of the land. That will not be permitted. If it's a choice between Israeli lives and Palestinian lives I stand with Israel.

5 What does Israel have to do with Iraq anyway?

exactly u are doing this same things in prisons torturing prisoners to death sometimes. and this peple will be freed if your troops just go away thats the easiest and best solution of the problem and u dont need a u.n. decision to do that LoL! iraq was better under saddam thae under occupation u never visited iraq so shut up!hahahaha if u belive in media freedom in iraq then u are really not so smart as u think.the country is on track to hell and how many more dead usa soldiers is needed for u to realise that 1000? 10000? 100000? 1.000.000?

There are abuses, but no confirmed deaths. The US doesn't condone this; look at the response to Abu Ghirab.

Iraq was better under Saddam? The 1,000,000+ people who were murdered for his sadistice desires and megalomania would say different. His people lived in poverty while he drained their wealth to build palaces, and carted off families to be tortured horribly. The infrastructure collapsed, and his people paid for his evil acts.

Iraq's economy booms, it's people are becoming truly free, and the terrorists are losing. I'd say they are on the path to heaven, not hell.

In war, soliders die. It's unfortunate, but sometimes they have to in order to make other nations free from suffering and oppression, as opposed to cowards who buy peace through appeasement.

The insurgency does not have popular support. They are almost all foreign extremists, ex-Saddam loyalists, and Al-Qaeda remnants. The majority of the country is stable. The quality of life is increasing and utilitites are coming back on after decades of mismangement by the corrupt Baath party.
The people no longer have to fear terror squads raping and killing their wives and mothers, torturing their husbands and fathers, and molesting their children along with seizing their property.

Name some cases of rape by US soliders. Otherwise, you are libeling the armed forces.

In Vietnam, the people were unified behind a real resistance, not a ragtag band of terrorists that only want power.this is the main difference between u and me i know and the rebbels have popular support!!! thats what u said in somalia --small gangs that dont have popular support we crush them easy but it didnt turn out that way Sam!country is unstable and will continue to be no matter how many people u kill innocent or the rebbels.the quality of life is decreasing!!now they fear usa soldiers torturing their husbands and fathers, and molesting their children along with seizing their property.
ok i will name cases dont worry sam i give u a link! but shit u dont speak arabian?!?

this is the main difference between u and me i know and the rebbels have popular support!!! thats what u said in somalia --small gangs that dont have popular support we crush them easy but it didnt turn out that way Sam!country is unstable and will continue to be no matter how many people u kill innocent or the rebbels.the quality of life is decreasing!!now they fear usa soldiers torturing their husbands and fathers, and molesting their children along with seizing their property.
ok i will name cases dont worry sam i give u a link! but shit u dont speak arabian?!?
1 If the rebels have popular support then why are more and more of them being reported by civilians to the Iraqi police and military? Why have tribal elders in the region bordering Syria asked for US help in fighting the rebel/terrorists in that area?

2 Somalia? Clinton was a pussy. He should have authorized AC 130 gunships to provide firepower to shoot a path through Mogadishu to allow our troops to walk our unmolested. Look how well Somalia is doing since the US left. Truly a model for the Islamic world to follow, no? They basically live in a crime and filth ridden sewer.

2 Nobody's getting raped by US soldiers. You just keep spouting libelous hate, don't you?


i don't think he knows what libelous is because english doesn't appear to be his first language. Where are you from Serbijanac? I think you need to read more news sources than you are looking at right now.

As far as the "" on occupation. i'm sure there are some who don't think it is one ;)

There are abuses, but no confirmed deaths. The US doesn't condone this; look at the response to Abu Ghirab.

Iraq was better under Saddam? The 1,000,000+ people who were murdered for his sadistice desires and megalomania would say different. His people lived in poverty while he drained their wealth to build palaces, and carted off families to be tortured horribly. The infrastructure collapsed, and his people paid for his evil acts.

Iraq's economy booms, it's people are becoming truly free, and the terrorists are losing. I'd say they are on the path to heaven, not hell.

In war, soliders die. It's unfortunate, but sometimes they have to in order to make other nations free from suffering and oppression, as opposed to cowards who buy peace through appeasement.
the people died man u dont know that?! so stop posting stupid things! and usa killed 1.000.000.+ indians for land and farms and bison skins so what else is new so stop selling that crap about democrasy -ariiving on bombs with uranium and killing people....people lived in powerty mostly because on u.n. sanctions! iraq econmy booms all right with Suicide bombers helping ! the Rebbels are winning deal with it sam.u wanted oil so bad so bad,even a long time ago and just waited for justification yeah democrasy my ass.

Why is occupation surrounded by quotation marks? It is an occupation.

...a necessary occupation, unless you'd like to see the insurgents rule the majority of iraqis, who seem to be looking ahead.

the people died man u dont know that?! so stop posting stupid things! and usa killed 1.000.000.+ indians for land and farms and bison skins so what else is new so stop selling that crap about democrasy -ariiving on bombs with uranium and killing people....people lived in powerty mostly because on u.n. sanctions! iraq econmy booms all right with Suicide bombers helping ! the Rebbels are winning deal with it sam.u wanted oil so bad so bad,even a long time ago and just waited for justification yeah democrasy my ass.
Ok, I see now. The insurgents, many of whom are extremist sunni muslims, are fighting for the rights of the polytheist and animist American Indians. They're doing that by blowing up Shiite mosques and destroying water purification plants. Now your whole argument makes sense.

Moonbats. Too many of them.

the people died man u dont know that?! so stop posting stupid things! and usa killed 1.000.000.+ indians for land and farms and bison skins...
uh.. 1 million? I don't think it was that many, i could be wrong.
so what else is new so stop selling that crap about democrasy -ariiving on bombs with uranium and killing people..
so far, we haven't used any nuclear weapons in Iraq
..people lived in powerty mostly because on u.n. sanctions!
those sanctions would not have been there if it wasn't for Saddam invading Kuwait and being a royal pain.
iraq econmy booms all right with Suicide bombers helping
sources in english please? I highly doubt this is true. More like that Information Minister guy who said that Baghdad is ok and the US hasn't infiltrated the city when ALL other news sources showed Americans inside Baghdad. I think you're reading propaganda my friend.
the Rebbels are winning deal with it sam.u wanted oil so bad so bad,even a long time ago and just waited for justification yeah democrasy my ass.
again, sources for this rhetoric?

1 If the rebels have popular support then why are more and more of them being reported by civilians to the Iraqi police and military? Why have tribal elders in the region bordering Syria asked for US help in fighting the rebel/terrorists in that area?

2 Somalia? Clinton was a pussy. He should have authorized AC 130 gunships to provide firepower to shoot a path through Mogadishu to allow our troops to walk our unmolested. Look how well Somalia is doing since the US left. Truly a model for the Islamic world to follow, no? They basically live in a crime and filth ridden sewer. the people are desperate for money [economy is booming yeah haha] so they apply for any kind of work even police. and old police from saddam is in there mostly too! they have their old job back.hm.because they are corrupded by usa money.usa payed them ,bribed them to say so..Somalia is rebuilding itself slowely oufcouse because it has no oil and other natural resources! klinton would have stayed there longer if they found oil in somalia! but he would have to leave for sure!if u give somalia money u wasted in iraq ehe >......

Again... where are you from Serbijanac?

the people died man u dont know that?! so stop posting stupid things! and usa killed 1.000.000.+ indians for land and farms and bison skins so what else is new so stop selling that crap about democrasy -ariiving on bombs with uranium and killing people....people lived in powerty mostly because on u.n. sanctions! iraq econmy booms all right with Suicide bombers helping ! the Rebbels are winning deal with it sam.u wanted oil so bad so bad,even a long time ago and just waited for justification yeah democrasy my ass.

well i haven't got anything better to do, so:

a)The iraqi people showed that they want democracy by braving bullets and showing up to vote

b)If we were there for oil, and were capitalizing on it, don't you think our gas prices would be a bit lower than they are? Yeah, we're really reaping the benefits on that one... but thanks for tossing up the most baseless argument against our help/occupation.

c)The insurgency is not winning. The kill ratio is something like 30 insurgents for every 1 US soldier/marine.

d)Unless Iraq wants to continue being seen as an international pariah, it would behoove them to squash this nut-job insurgency. And if they can't do it yet, then we have to do it for/with them until their armed forces/police are up to the task and the new popularly elected government can begin to govern effectively.

uh.. 1 million? I don't think it was that many, i could be wrong.

so far, we haven't used any nuclear weapons in Iraq

those sanctions would not have been there if it wasn't for Saddam invading Kuwait and being a royal pain.

sources in english please? I highly doubt this is true. More like that Information Minister guy who said that Baghdad is ok and the US hasn't infiltrated the city when ALL other news sources showed Americans inside Baghdad. I think you're reading propaganda my friend.

again, sources for this rhetoric? ok check it out and see i am right.u hide your dark history very well sam..u used bombs with! uranium!.not nukes look at my post before saying something that stupid.u.n. sanctions were ok but too harsh and restrictive i think! ok i give u sources in arabian learn the countrys language at least man before u invade the country plz! and wtf english resouces u wont get facts watching cnn belive me>.u are under bush propaganda all the time
.i am sorry for u u live in a lie.and wont even try to understand instead u dissmiss everything that doesnt come from cnn.brainwashed by commertials cccccc...

1 Nobody's saying Saddam was a good man.

2 Iraq was a fairly modern and secular nation under Saddam.

3 He actually did a better job in providing basic services than many of his neighbors.

Anyway, don't you think we need to stay until Iraq is stable and it's government can provide basic services at least as well as Saddam did?
1. Yes.

2. By comparison with its, neighbours, Iraq was modern and secular. Literacy rates were among the highest in the region, but on the other hand, homosexuality and alcohol were outlawed.

3. Correct.

Again... where are you from Serbijanac?
check out My nation!and see with your own eyes

If the iraqi's want us out so bad, how come their elected gov't doesn't have that on the top of their list of things to do? If the current government in Iraq ran on the platform of getting out the US as soon as possible, why haven't we heard any news of that nature?

The way i see it, if the iraqi's don't want us there, i'm ok to pull the troops back home. Let them sort it out if they want to.

I can't reply to this post the way I want to because I would get banned.

1 What makes you think that the Sunni would cooperate with the people the DOMINATED unless forced to? What makes you think the Kurds and Shiite would not take VENGANCE on those who oppressed them in the past?

2 Your libelous remarks about US troops are completely unsupported by fact and only show your ignorance and blatant prejudice.

3 Why would the resistance magically end? Notice that the suicide bombers don't target American troops anymore. They target the Shiia muslims. They target the water and electricity that people rely on. It's a civil war and you're too blind to see it.
Perfect response, DC, but the guy is obviously a troll and not worth talking to.

check out My nation!and see with your own eyes

why when you can just tell me? i've tried looking up nations via name, but i seem to have a hard time doing so.

but here's a link i want to show you.

gas prices in texas (http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/04/13/037612.html) If we were there for oil, how come it's so expensive? a highlight of the article states this: The current average is also 52 cents higher than last year's monthly average price of $1.649 a gallon, according to AAA Texas.

please, tell me why?

*edit* i figured out the serb part... but i'm not the brightest when it comes to geography :P where is that again?

well i haven't got anything better to do, so:

a)The iraqi people showed that they want democracy by braving bullets and showing up to vote

b)If we were there for oil, and were capitalizing on it, don't you think our gas prices would be a bit lower than they are? Yeah, we're really reaping the benefits on that one... but thanks for tossing up the most baseless argument against our help/occupation.

c)The insurgency is not winning. The kill ratio is something like 30 insurgents for every 1 US soldier/marine.

d)Unless Iraq wants to continue being seen as an international pariah, it would behoove them to squash this nut-job insurgency. And if they can't do it yet, then we have to do it for/with them until their armed forces/police are up to the task and the new popularly elected government can begin to govern effectively.ok so they voted by the elections were more frauded then the election in ukraine!this elections would not be legitimate in any legal state exept for states under usa occupation-free and democratic my ass.oil is expensive because china and india a catchin u up as consumers. who told u 1 us marine/ 30 rebbels the CNN?! heheheh. the same story was in vietnam sam.

ok so they voted by the elections were more frauded then the election in ukraine!this elections would not be legitimate in any legal state exept for states under usa occupation-free and democratic my ass.oil is expensive because china and india a catchin u up as consumers. who told u 1 us marine/ 30 rebbels the CNN?! heheheh. the same story was in vietnam sam.

if the oil in Iraq was for the US, how could the gas price go up because China and India became greater consumers? Wouldn't that make our oil cheaper?

*edit* off to take an exam. respond later.

If the iraqi's want us out so bad, how come their elected gov't doesn't have that on the top of their list of things to do? If the current government in Iraq ran on the platform of getting out the US as soon as possible, why haven't we heard any news of that nature?

The way i see it, if the iraqi's don't want us there, i'm ok to pull the troops back home. Let them sort it out if they want to.
even usa occupation backed iraq? the government or same members are/is saying it wants usa out but but within few years u can only think what the population thinks about usa soldiers! much much worse!that was their political platform in iraq elections? -the usa must get out!or some political candidates said -it must be forced out!

if the oil in Iraq was for the US, how could the gas price go up because China and India became greater consumers? Wouldn't that make our oil cheaper?the rebbels are preventing u ripping iraqis natural riches by sabotage .sorry sam the pipeline is very very long!
usa is a highway robber! in iraq.

the rebbels are preventing u ripping iraqis natural riches by sabotage .sorry sam the pipeline is very very long!
usa is a highway robber! in iraq.

please refrain from spouting anti-american propaganda. in my original post, i stated i wanted news articles with facts.

and with that, i'm off to take a test.

ok check it out and see i am right.u hide your dark history very well sam..u used bombs with! uranium!.not nukes look at my post before saying something that stupid.u.n. sanctions were ok but too harsh and restrictive i think! ok i give u sources in arabian learn the countrys language at least man before u invade the country plz! and wtf english resouces u wont get facts watching cnn belive me>.u are under bush propaganda all the time
.i am sorry for u u live in a lie.and wont even try to understand instead u dissmiss everything that doesnt come from cnn.brainwashed by commertials cccccc...

You have a lot of anger towards the United States. Have you met many Americans? Have you ever visited America? You may have already stated this but what is the language you speak? I can say for myself that I have limited abilities in speaking two other languages and am impressed with how well you keep up with the board when your language of preference is not english.

please refrain from spouting anti-american propaganda. in my original post, i stated i wanted news articles with facts.

and with that, i'm off to take a test.
i am saying my honest opinion sam and if u think its anti-american then ok.i can lot of good things about usa bit in iraq they are the losers! the way to the truth is long and paintifull but not out of your reach sam. u are not a kid u are not retarded, and u dont need a tutor .google a little bit yourself sam.not just have cnn as you homepage! if i give u web site u will dissmiss it automaticaly but if u find it yourself u will probably belive it. u are full of prejudise sam...

You have a lot of anger towards the United States. Have you met many Americans? Have you ever visited America? You may have already stated this but what is the language you speak? I can say for myself that I have limited abilities in speaking two other languages and am impressed with how well you keep up with the board when your language of preference is not english.
pff sry for spoiling you little chat here as i saw u all agreed on occupation is a good? thing so i wont post anymore. so u can continue congratulating each other and beliving what u think is facts?! i am angry my paychecck is late but not bias towards usa or aginst it i can say lot of good things about usa but in case of iraq u are god damn wrong.

the rebbels are preventing u ripping iraqis natural riches by sabotage .sorry sam the pipeline is very very long!
usa is a highway robber! in iraq.
The cost of running the war and maintaining the military presence for a year is greater than the value of one full year of Iraq's oil output. Sorry pal, anyone who thinks we went to war to get cheap oil is seriously misguided.

Please remember it is not only US Soldiers in Iraq, it is British and other Coalition forces ( i belive a total of 31 countries in Iraq!)

As for the whole withdrawal thing, I think we need to set a date for withdrawal, to show the Iraqis that we are planning to leave, however this date needs to be flexible to take into account set backs and also long term (earliest time of withdrawal in my view would be 2007).

We started it, we need to finish it. The US cannot leave now, it cannot do another 1st Gulf War where the body bags started to mount and the US left leaving the Brits on a lurch! This is not acceptable, if the US and coalition forces are in Iraq they need to stay until Iraq is well on the path to recovery.

As for the fact that quality of life under Saddam was better, what is your evidence for that?! Do you really think Saddam would release factual information, believe it or not, Saddam would have sent propaganda not only to his people but to foreign leaders to deceive them. Any information during saddam's reign is suspect and probably unreliable evidence.

Iraqi's are blatantly better of now than they were under Saddam, they are not being oppressed and have free speech! They have basic human rights, that cancels out any 'bad' things happening in Iraq. I mean what do you people think, invade a country get rid of a government that had been serving for 30 odd years and everything would be hunky dory?! No, the country was being oppressed under Saddam, and now under the coalition forces is being built to be a strong point in the Middle East for democracy.

Unfotunately, there are fanatics who will resort to any means, to stop this progress for the common good, either in hate of the US or their own people! I mean how selfish and self centered is that, would it not be possible to accept someones help, despite their race and the country they come from? Obviously not.

Graham Harvey

i am saying my honest opinion sam and if u think its anti-american then ok.i can lot of good things about usa bit in iraq they are the losers! the way to the truth is long and paintifull but not out of your reach sam. u are not a kid u are not retarded, and u dont need a tutor .google a little bit yourself sam.not just have cnn as you homepage! if i give u web site u will dissmiss it automaticaly but if u find it yourself u will probably belive it. u are full of prejudise sam...

that's funny that you think i visit cnn for all my news sources, i can tell you that i don't. as far as your honest opinion, it's just that. you're opinion, i wan't facts, not opinion. You're also right in that the way to the truth is long, and can be painful. Look at you own rhetoric when you say i need to look elsewhere for information. So do you.

Stability based on jailing and killing thousands of his own people a year for political reasons. He didn't keep the power and the water running; Iraq's infrastructure was a nightmare patchwork to start with, with few areas having reliable services. One of our major tasks is rebuilding that infrastructure, a task that would be a lot easier if non Iraqis didn't find it easier to blow up the work we accomplish instead of trying to attack "harder" targets. Saddam isn't Hitler, not only in the size of his scope of his atrocities(thousands vs millions) but in that he has failed to provide any significant benefits in terms of roads, power grids, and other construction projects to his people. If we find Hitler to be morally repugnant despite his "good side" then we have to find Saddam equally so.

Actually, Stalin is up there with Hitler as one of the six greatest murderers of the 20th century.

However, you are entirely correct about the infrastructure. The reason it's hard to rebuild isn't that we trashed a perfectly good network, it's because there was 30 years of sporadic and weak efforts to keep it running, and the fact our workers get blown up and taken hostage doesn't greatly help.

Please remember it is not only US Soldiers in Iraq, it is British and other Coalition forces ( i belive a total of 31 countries in Iraq!)

<snip>

Graham Harvey

Harvey, I need that reminder. We all do. Those guys sweat and bleed just like ours, and they believe in the same thing we do.

that's funny that you think i visit cnn for all my news sources, i can tell you that i don't. as far as your honest opinion, it's just that. you're opinion, i wan't facts, not opinion. You're also right in that the way to the truth is long, and can be painful. Look at you own rhetoric when you say i need to look elsewhere for information. So do you.
my opinon is based on facts sam and best thing u cuold do is to listen very carefully! the subject has been shutting down wich shows how people are full of ignorance...

Harvey, I need that reminder. We all do. Those guys sweat and bleed just like ours, and they believe in the same thing we do.
So did HitlerYouth bleed ans sweat for germany sam and they belived in the same thing the germans did..so what..their cause was wrong and so is yours>>>>!!!!!!! :headbang:

Saddam was not a nice man. That should go without saying, but he did keep a stable and functioning government. He kept street crime low. He made sure electricity and water were available for the people ...Well CNN said today that so far we are expending 200 billion...or about 2000 per US household in Iraq...

and how are Iraqis better under US occupation:

Under Saddam only 6000 people had Net access...
Under US a whooping 160000 have Net access...

Under Saddam only few had Cell Phones...
Today: tens-of-Thousands.

????? :confused: ...at least thats what CNN says...
but I dont know how can they measure Net access...maybe CNN polled them :D

The cost of running the war and maintaining the military presence for a year is greater than the value of one full year of Iraq's oil output. Sorry pal, anyone who thinks we went to war to get cheap oil is seriously misguided.
exactly my point sam i mean think about it what u have just said!!--usa and bush thought this would be an easy ride trough iraq theyll be greated with flowers and everything would be hanky-doory.,=plus they have oil for nest 50 years..instead theyve got bullets into their stupid heads! wrong calculation for bush but one that will only cost american people... pullot sam better sooner than latter OR FACE DIRE,DIRE CONSEQUENCES...Sorry pal, anyone who thinks we went to war to get cheap oil is seriously right.

Hey, Serbijanac--

Ever spoken with any Iraqis? Ever lived near them? HAVE YOU EVER STEPPED IN THE DAMN COUNTRY?

Yeah, I bet -not-. -I- did. I was there for a year, kiddo. I saw, and all the stuff you spout is complete bull.

The so-called 'infrastructure' was falling apart. I was in one of the least bombed cities in the whole country, and the water, electricity and other utilities were piss-poor before the Americans stepped foot there.

I spoke to Sunni, Shiites, Kurds, Turkomen -every day-. Nine tenths of them just want to live in peace, and the insurgent -trash- doesn't do that. The insurgents send -car bombs- into Civil Affairs convoys that are giving candy and medical aid to Iraqi children. -seventy Iraqi children dead-. One American. My whole -brigade- lost fewer than a hundred soldiers, out of -five thousand- deployed.

Do I sound irate? You bet I do. Did I want to be in Iraq? Did it profit me anything? NO. Does it profit my country anything? NO. Do you know the amount of money we spend -fixing- stuff the insurgents break?

Insurgent in Iraq: I WILL BLOW UP THE FACTORY! FOR THE AMERICAN INFIDELS ARE FUNDING IT! I WILL HURT THEM! :sniper:

Innocent Iraqi: But...but...that factory was built by Iraqi contracting companies. And it was supposed to help us get jobs...and...feed the...kids...? :confused:

Insurgent: NOW I WILL BLOW UP THE IRAQI NATIONAL GUARD! FOR THEY ARE COLLABORATORS!

Iraqi Achmed-on-the-street: But...dude, my brother was there....and...like, didn't the Americans say they'd go as soon as the ING and the police were....functional? :(

/derail

Anyways, my opinion? I want to get the hell out. But I have -friends- over there. Not Americans. Iraqis that I became quite close to. I don't want to -think- of my friend's darling little girls getting killed in a 'police action' by some idiot who becomes a local warlord because there's no stabilizing force in the area (not just the multi-national forces, but also stronger Iraqi forces).

Hey, Serbijanac--

Ever spoken with any Iraqis? Ever lived near them? HAVE YOU EVER STEPPED IN THE DAMN COUNTRY?

Yeah, I bet -not-. -I- did. I was there for a year, kiddo. I saw, and all the stuff you spout is complete bull.

The so-called 'infrastructure' was falling apart. I was in one of the least bombed cities in the whole country, and the water, electricity and other utilities were piss-poor before the Americans stepped foot there.

I spoke to Sunni, Shiites, Kurds, Turkomen -every day-. Nine tenths of them just want to live in peace, and the insurgent -trash- doesn't do that. The insurgents send -car bombs- into Civil Affairs convoys that are giving candy and medical aid to Iraqi children. -seventy Iraqi children dead-. One American. My whole -brigade- lost fewer than a hundred soldiers, out of -five thousand- deployed.

Do I sound irate? You bet I do. Did I want to be in Iraq? Did it profit me anything? NO. Does it profit my country anything? NO. Do you know the amount of money we spend -fixing- stuff the insurgents break?

Insurgent in Iraq: I WILL BLOW UP THE FACTORY! FOR THE AMERICAN INFIDELS ARE FUNDING IT! I WILL HURT THEM! :sniper:

Innocent Iraqi: But...but...that factory was built by Iraqi contracting companies. And it was supposed to help us get jobs...and...feed the...kids...? :confused:

Insurgent: NOW I WILL BLOW UP THE IRAQI NATIONAL GUARD! FOR THEY ARE COLLABORATORS!

Iraqi Achmed-on-the-street: But...dude, my brother was there....and...like, didn't the Americans say they'd go as soon as the ING and the police were....functional? :(

/derail

Anyways, my opinion? I want to get the hell out. But I have -friends- over there. Not Americans. Iraqis that I became quite close to. I don't want to -think- of my friend's darling little girls getting killed in a 'police action' by some idiot who becomes a local warlord because there's no stabilizing force in the area (not just the multi-national forces, but also stronger Iraqi forces).hey pusari i was in iraq so u are wrong there.. you are the only one here behaving like a spoiled brat..kiddo!
infrastructure was falling apart because of constant usa-britain bombings every day from GW1 to G.W.2 and u.n.sanctions..nothing metal was allowed to come in without huge buearocracy..now that americans have comed iraqis dont even that little much!! how did u speak to them by translator u can speak arabian or kurdish dialect?? i wonder!! yes 90% off them want to live in FREE and Peacefull country without foreign occupation and dictatorship.u missed that point obviously! uder iraqi law every cooperation with occupation forces is considered an act of treason man and the punishment for treason under muslim law is death! your forces are only destabilasing iraq man read some of mine previous posts here i already had exchange of arguements with some people like u...

hey pusari i was in iraq so u are wrong there.. you are the only one here behaving like a spoiled brat..kiddo!
infrastructure was falling apart because of constant usa-britain bombings every day from GW1 to G.W.2 and u.n.sanctions..nothing metal was allowed to come in without huge buearocracy..now that americans have comed iraqis dont even that little much!!

No, the infrastructure fell apart because Saddam preferred to spend money on palaces, expensive furniture, foreign luxury goods, cars, gold-plated weapons, yachts, swimming pools, and his perverted children Uday and Qusay. He spent his oil money on illegal weapons while his people starved, and the UN was nothing more than a corrupt accomplice.

He hurt his own country through his own corruption and greed. It wasn't the US that did it.

No, the infrastructure fell apart because Saddam preferred to spend money on palaces, expensive furniture, foreign luxury goods, cars, gold-plated weapons, yachts, swimming pools, and his perverted children Uday and Qusay. He spent his oil money on illegal weapons while his people starved, and the UN was nothing more than a corrupt accomplice.

He hurt his own country through his own corruption and greed. It wasn't the US that did it. its the u.s. fault as much as it is saddams that iraqis live terrible hard lives and its getting worse so u.s.=saddam i is the same sam...yeah he spent money on weapons of mass destruction yeah by the way where i they u know i remember bushs claims how iraq is full of it saddam buying it with the oil for food programe... hm maybe bush has been giving it to israel since its a only country is middle-east whitch has unchecked weapons of mass destruction!!!

SERBIJANAC=obvious troll. You claim to base your opinions on facts, yet you seem to prove the opposite by not proving it. You sound like you believe the "insurgencees" over the US or even the Iraqis who are affiliated by neither the coalition nor the terrorists. If you have sources, spill the beans. Stop posting obvious hate. Are you seeking attention? Do you have a baby sibling/offspring who is getting all of the attention? Did your prescription run out? Did you lose your meds? Stop trolling.

SERBIJANAC=obvious troll. You claim to base your opinions on facts, yet you seem to prove the opposite by not proving it. You sound like you believe the "insurgencees" over the US or even the Iraqis who are affiliated by neither the coalition nor the terrorists. If you have sources, spill the beans. Stop posting obvious hate. Are you seeking attention? Do you have a baby sibling/offspring who is getting all of the attention? Did your prescription run out? Did you lose your meds? Stop trolling.
No i am not.and where are your 'facts' sam???!! u just came here to insult right?!i belive the iraqi rebbels will win over usa occupation! my sources are different from yours next time READ ALL POSTS in a topic before saying something that stupid... i am not posting more hate here than you and your friends anyways.NO....WTF! leave my family alone u retard!.....NO i am helthy...NO i have no meds....ii am not trolling wtf! just look ok at message number 61 ;27.6.-05, my next message 24.7.-05..i didnt post here almost a month the fact that other people didnt post is their problem not mine and that just shows .....oh damn read that post sam.. AVIKA=NOOB.

doesnt it seem only natural that the iraqis would want us out? even if they "like" us and appreciate being "liberated" they want their damned country back. who wouldnt?

Of course they want us out.

But they also know that if US leave right away, then their country will probably end up in a civil war and they would need to face off against the terrorists.

The Americans are training the Iraqi police everyday and people are signing up. The only people who can help Iraq get back to normal right now are the Iraqi's themselves.

It is an occupation, no need for quotation marks.

It is the barnyard rule.

You broke it. You fix it. :D

A stable Iraq is in the interests of world peace. There is no option of leaving Iraq at this moment. This would be akin to US leaving Afghanistan without a stable govt and the resultant power vacuum was filled eventually by the taliban. The Iraqi insurgency has to be defeated thoroughly by a combination of ruthlessly eliminating the cross border pan-islamist terrorists like zarqawi and the local elements that cooperate with him, and intimidating or coopting the local sunni elements including the former baathists and encouraging the sunni public to participate in the democratic process along with the kurds and shias.

I don't think the Coalition of Willing (COW :D ) can make it by themselves with the current trend. There is simply no end in sight for the insurgency. The Bush administration has to somehow involve other powers. If this means taking this to UN, then they should not hesitate. If this becomes an operation under the UN banner, countries like India would send troops to Iraq for an operation under UN banner and blue helmets.

my opinon is based on facts sam and best thing u cuold do is to listen very carefully! the subject has been shutting down wich shows how people are full of ignorance...

wow, i thought this thread was dead. Ok... you say you're opinion is based on facts, where are you getting these "facts" from? i would like to see the links you're pulling this info you call facts, from.

and please stop calling me sam, that's not my name.

It is an occupation, no need for quotation marks.

if you invade a country, depose a dictator, and attempt to install a gov't, and then say we'll leave when the gov't wants us to, that's an occupation? At this point i see us being there as an invitation. All they hafta do is say the word and we're out.

We are on there on request and they are asking us to leave. Besides the current government was voted in by the Iraqi people, not installed by the US. Anyways, I must say this, I was strongly for the war in Iraq because I felt Saddam had to go. I felt the Iraqi people deserved a chance.

if you invade a country, depose a dictator, and attempt to install a gov't, and then say we'll leave when the gov't wants us to, that's an occupation? At this point i see us being there as an invitation. All they hafta do is say the word and we're out.

That's like saying you've been 'invited' to a house party after breaking down the doors, kicking the stuffing out of the host, and commandeering the keg and chips.

That's like saying you've been 'invited' to a house party after breaking down the doors, kicking the stuffing out of the host, and commandeering the keg and chips.

No. It is kicking out the guy who has been poisoning the drinks (Saddam).

That's like saying you've been 'invited' to a house party after breaking down the doors, kicking the stuffing out of the host, and commandeering the keg and chips.


cackle.. that's a funny analogy.

but still. If the host was mistreating his guests as Mesetacala says, then he deserve to be kicked out.

No. It is kicking out the guy who has been poisoning the drinks (Saddam).

This guy really doesn't have a terribly well-developed sense of humour, does he?

Why is occupation surrounded by quotation marks? It is an occupation.
No it isn't.

if you invade a country, depose a dictator, and attempt to install a gov't, and then say we'll leave when the gov't wants us to, that's an occupation? At this point i see us being there as an invitation. All they hafta do is say the word and we're out.
That'd interesting... it reminds me of Afghanistan '79, although the USSR did not merely 'depose' Amin. Yes, neither post-1979 Afghanistan nor post-2004 Iraq can be counted as occupied countries, the American army doesn't govern Iraq.