NationStates Jolt Archive

In a lot of debates in american politics it always seems to me that both sides want to justify their beliefs by saying that the founding fathers would agree with them.
For example both the War on Iraq and the secularisation of government have had these claims flying about the place.

My question is why the fuck should we care about what they said? Surely just because America was founded on certain principles doesn't mean you guys should keep following them- several of the founding fathers would have been pro-slavery, surely nobody thinks we should reintroduce that. So why do we apply their beliefs to other issues as well then?

It's a nice reinforcement for your opinions. The common knowledge that the founding fathers led the revolution against the British and suceeded and that they believed in such an opinion looks good in a debate.

US government and laws are based on a constitution written by the founding fathers. In order to implement the constitution you must know what it says and what it means. Therefore the founding fathers' intent is important because it clarifies the constitution (in theory).

The US is a prodominantly Christian country. The Bible is 2000 years old give or take.
Also there is a urging need to make our previous generation proud of us.
Other than that I'd have no idea. Maybe its because you have inflexibility as law is based on a constitution. who knows American history is not my strength

Because it makes the law look good, even if it sucks.

EDIT: What does the Bible have to do with the Founding Fathers?

Because it makes the law look good, even if it sucks.

EDIT: What does the Bible have to do with the Founding Fathers?

I was making the comparrison with the bible because some people follow the bible blindly.

What would Jesus do?
What would the founding fathers think?

you see?

I was making the comparrison with the bible because some people follow the bible blindly.

What would Jesus do?
What would the founding fathers think?

you see?

Oh, I thought you meant that the Bible and the Founding Fathers were somehow connected, and that the Bible was why people say "It's what the Founding Fathers wanted." Thanks for clearing that up.

Oh, I thought you meant that the Bible and the Founding Fathers were somehow connected, and that the Bible was why people say "It's what the Founding Fathers wanted." Thanks for clearing that up.

No worries after re reading it I had problems making sense of it myself ;)

It's a sort of appeal to authority by proxy.

Two Words: Original Intent.

What would Jesus do?

The problem with this question is that it too often leads to responses like
Jesus wouldn't have invaded Iraq in the first place or Jesus wouldn't have been naked but for a facemask and a feather boa in the female changing rooms of the YMCA to start with.

The problem with this question is that it too often leads to responses like
Jesus wouldn't have invaded Iraq in the first place or Jesus wouldn't have been naked but for a facemask and a feather boa in the female changing rooms of the YMCA to start with.

Agreed, the amount of times thought about the latter answer ;)

In a lot of debates in american politics it always seems to me that both sides want to justify their beliefs by saying that the founding fathers would agree with them.
For example both the War on Iraq and the secularisation of government have had these claims flying about the place.

My question is why the fuck should we care about what they said? Surely just because America was founded on certain principles doesn't mean you guys should keep following them- several of the founding fathers would have been pro-slavery, surely nobody thinks we should reintroduce that. So why do we apply their beliefs to other issues as well then?


Because the Constitution was designed to be intrepeted over certain issues.

You look to the FF to see what they intended and take it from there.

You look to the FF to see what they intended and take it from there.

'Fantastic Four'?

'Fantastic Four'?

Smart ass!

:D

In a lot of debates in american politics it always seems to me that both sides want to justify their beliefs by saying that the founding fathers would agree with them.
For example both the War on Iraq and the secularisation of government have had these claims flying about the place.

My question is why the fuck should we care about what they said? Surely just because America was founded on certain principles doesn't mean you guys should keep following them- several of the founding fathers would have been pro-slavery, surely nobody thinks we should reintroduce that. So why do we apply their beliefs to other issues as well then?
I totally agree! The deification of Washington et al can get a bit much sometimes. I also hate how people use mere quotes to justify their arguments as if it were scientific evidence. Libertarians are particularly guilty of this.

'Fantastic Four'?


Final Fantasy, silly :p

I totally agree! The deification of Washington et al can get a bit much sometimes. I also hate how people use mere quotes to justify their arguments as if it were scientific evidence. Libertarians are particularly guilty of this.

The Founding Fathers lived 200 years ago. If you can't justify your arguments with facts or even recent quotes, you have no argument. The FF (not the Fantastic Four/Final Fantasy ;) ) are not an invincible wall.

They may have lived 200 years ago, but we do have a certain respect for them, as without them we'd all be ruled by the British or maybe the Nazis, but I digress...

The Founding Fathers established the principles of our modern government and their judgement and direction still apply today, with little tidbits of wisdom, such as "All Authority Belongs to the People" - Thomas Jefferson
Also, "He who would give up his essential liberty for a little safety deserves neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin. I'm just saying that we must respect them, as without them, life as we know it would not exist.

One other thing the Founding Fathers wrought:
WE THE PEOPLE of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

No words have ever, nor probably ever will, expressed this in such a magnificent way.
CUHL

P.S. If you don't understand that, then it means: We the People are going to centralize the government, establish a judical system, try to keep people happy, keep the British out, make sure no one is needy, and ensure that we and our descendants are free, so we're making this constitution.

We the People are going to centralize the government, establish a judical system, try to keep people happy, keep the British out, make sure no one is needy, and ensure that we and our descendants are free, so we're making this constitution.

And look how well that worked out for you.

However, I strongly agree with those who've disregarded it. It's a blatant fallacy: appeal to tradition.

I have an interest in your founding fathers because there were reasons they left Old Europe.

In a lot of debates in american politics it always seems to me that both sides want to justify their beliefs by saying that the founding fathers would agree with them.
For example both the War on Iraq and the secularisation of government have had these claims flying about the place.

My question is why the fuck should we care about what they said? Surely just because America was founded on certain principles doesn't mean you guys should keep following them- several of the founding fathers would have been pro-slavery, surely nobody thinks we should reintroduce that. So why do we apply their beliefs to other issues as well then?

You must be so goddamned uninformed in republican principles. Here's a question, why should those of us who honor them listen to you? Who are you to criticize?

Oh that's right. NOBODY. And a nobody who doesn't understand why there is huge respect and honor for them. Before you can really understand our answers, you HAVE to learn more about them. Otherwise whatever "speeches" you hear will always be lost to you. There is a reason patriotic people take their words with great weight to our opinions of the republic they founded.

I was making the comparrison with the bible because some people follow the bible blindly.

What would Jesus do?
What would the founding fathers think?

you see?

Actually it is because the republic is intended to serve a specific purpose between the liberty of the people, and the affairs the state must address. To better learn that purpose you MUST learn the actual designs of the Constitution. You already mentioned you don't know jack. So I can understand why you would group us with religious extremists. We don't hinge on the founders like the word of god. We take their advice and teachings simply for the behavior of the government. There is a difference. Our government is designed for a specific purpose otherwise there is no point for it.

I totally agree! The deification of Washington et al can get a bit much sometimes. I also hate how people use mere quotes to justify their arguments as if it were scientific evidence. Libertarians are particularly guilty of this.

Deification? Wow. I think your on something. The only thing I see the people deifying is the god of abraham. I can NOT go a day without hearing people deify him. And if people deify Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, I have to ask why the hell is it your business? This is a free country where people can diefy them if we wish. We have religious freedom here. I think people like you are to much if it is any consolation. At least those people are the first people who likely understand what this country is supposed to be about.

The Founding Fathers lived 200 years ago. If you can't justify your arguments with facts or even recent quotes, you have no argument. The FF (not the Fantastic Four/Final Fantasy ;) ) are not an invincible wall.

For recent issues, one must take learned arguments. If they interweave with old issues, then we must take the time to make a learned decision based on the purpose of the relationship between the American Republic government and people who it governs. Not doing this and not respecting the intent of the founders leads to legislation such as the Patriot Act. The ONLY reason this country is still as good as it has been for 200 years is because we have had a certain percentage of people who care what this country was about fight for it and honor its intended purpose.

And look how well that worked out for you.

However, I strongly agree with those who've disregarded it. It's a blatant fallacy: appeal to tradition.

Actually, they said it better. It has a bit more legal emphisis. However it is apparent what happens when you follow or read what they tried to do. You can at least understand what the Constitution was trying to do. I doubt those who would ignore them as "some guys" would have an ounce of the wisdom they had in government.

I have an interest in your founding fathers because there were reasons they left Old Europe.

Most of the founders didn't "leave old Europe" and only visited it. They mostly were born on this continent. Some were adopted sons if you will such as the Marqui de Lafayette and Thomas Paine.