NationStates Jolt Archive

Context. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9147887&postcount=16)

I have an opinion on it as a player. So if we take example #1 & 2 who deems it an attack and who deems it as "unnecessarily"? You? Me? The third guy from the left?

We all do. We're all responsible for making decisions about our behavior and the behavior of others. We're all responsible for avoiding bringing harm to each other. That's just my opinion. Obviously you have no legal obligation to be nice to people, and being nice to people isn't a rule on NS, but I would hope that you would allow yourself and others to benefit from a little kindness and compassion, feelings that you seem perfectly capable of showing.

Lets take example #3 The Red Arrow, now there is a guy who had unpopular beliefs and was always being accosted for them, he was so far left that even liberals didn't want to hear what he had to say.

True. He was treated poorly, and that was unfortunate. I personally thought he was hilarious and would have supported keeping him around if didn't turn into a spammer. It reminds me somewhat of how CM/DecA/VE was treated mostly because of his beliefs. Just like with TRA, I certainly don't mind people questioning his beliefs, but the attacks got pretty vicious.

Where as Eutrusca claims right in his sig that he is a centrist. How is being a centrist unpopular? It's not. Now if we ignore Eutrusca's sig and look at his real political beliefs, that of a conservative and right winger, still not unpopular, many people on the forums are conservative and right wingers, yourself included. You seem pretty conservative in your posts.

I'm going to explain something that even many brilliant people such as yourself seem to miss fairly often. I seem conservative because there's a need for balance. I attack liberal bullshit more often than conservative bullshit because there are already thirty other people who are happily attacking the conservative bullshit. I could go around attacking all the conservative bullshit too and give you the impression that I'm a centrist, but why would I if other people are already dealing with the conservative bullshit? Yes, Eutrusca is a little more conservative than I am, but he still suffers from the same issue. He sees more liberal bullshit than conservative bullshit left undealt with on the forum, so that's where he needs to do the work.

So what I hear you saying is that if the right is being given a hard time we should have more compassion for them than if what? The left? The middle? The out to lunch?

:rolleyes: I want people to have more compassion for those who get attacked more often, regardless of their political beliefs and such. I also want world peace, eternal optimist that I am.

See, I just don't get what you're saying, because Eutrusca actually has quite a few friends on NS and a lot of people agree with him. However even if that was not the case, if you can't handle the heat, you stay out of the kitchen. Because if you pick up a lighter and flame someone you're guilty of flaming no matter how popular or unpopular your beliefs are. And trust me, Eutrusca has had MANY chances, more than a lot of other people I've seen.

Good. I hope we continue to give each other chances, give each other a break, take their situation into account, and assume the other person is just having a bad day rather than figuring they're a complete asshole...or figuring that they're trying to get people to play favorites based on their political beliefs.

So I guess what I'd really like to know is what is so unpopular about Eutrusca's belief's that he should be given special consideration by the players of NS?

Special consideration? I would hope that there's nothing special about giving people consideration. I would hope that you give everyone the consideration that is commensurate with their situation, just as you might be more considerate of a rape victim's feelings about sexuality or a gay person's feelings about gender issues. I would hope that you are giving me the same consideration I'm giving you and not assuming you're just being intentionally mean or stubborn.

I think what you are trying to say (correct me if I am wrong) is that we shouldn't be running off to the mods for every little instance of Flaming/trolling unless it's obvious that the poster is being a Flamer/Troll.

the mods got enough to do as it is.

Nor should we be bogging up Moderation with lengthly debates about subjective viewpoints and such. The mods have the right to be subjective. They generally WILL confer with other mods on their viewpoint however, but I don't really think bringing up dictionary definitions of a word is going to sway them much.

I think what you are trying to say (correct me if I am wrong) is that we shouldn't be running off to the mods for every little instance of Flaming/trolling unless it's obvious that the poster is being a Flamer/Troll.

the mods got enough to do as it is.

That's definitely a part of it. My emphasis would be more on giving your fellow posters a little kindness and compassion, because that's the first step and would naturally lead to less work for the Mods without having to tell people to leave less work for the Mods. That doesn't mean you can't have a spirited debate. I've had good debates with many people and came away with great respect for them rather than thinking badly of them. It just requires a little effort to understand our fellow human beings and appreciate them for their good qualities rather than focusing on what we don't like. That's partly why I like it that Eutrusca affirms his agreement with people a well as debating their points. It gives us a chance to get rid of the false impression we have of each other as oppositional and argumentative because we're almost always debating.

Eutrusca has been given one of the widest berths to flame, troll, and generally break the rules out of anyone I have ever seen on this forum in all the time I have been here. He regularly commits more egregious offenses than most people, and people have been forumbanned or worse for far less than what he gets away with on a regular basis. I have no sympathy for him getting "ganged up on" or however you put it, because he has earned his reputation and the consequences of said reputation. Frankly, I was shocked that he was not deleted within a month of coming to NationStates.

Eutrusca has been given one of the widest berths to flame, troll, and generally break the rules out of anyone I have ever seen on this forum in all the time I have been here. He regularly commits more egregious offenses than most people, and people have been forumbanned or worse for far less than what he gets away with on a regular basis. I have no sympathy for him getting "ganged up on" or however you put it, because he has earned his reputation and the consequences of said reputation.
I agree.

Ok. I get your point.

I agree.

That being said, I do get along with him when he isn't mocking the city and state of my birth or sarcastically dismissing my beliefs. I don't want to see him permanently banned from NationStates.

Lets take example #3 The Red Arrow, now there is a guy who had unpopular beliefs and was always being accosted for them, he was so far left that even liberals didn't want to hear what he had to say.



True. He was treated poorly, and that was unfortunate. I personally thought he was hilarious and would have supported keeping him around if didn't turn into a spammer. It reminds me somewhat of how CM/DecA/VE was treated mostly because of his beliefs. Just like with TRA, I certainly don't mind people questioning his beliefs, but the attacks got pretty vicious.

In my opinion and experience TRA wasn't directly being accosted for his unpopular beliefs, but rather because whenever one tried to enter into a dialogue with him it became clear how incapable he was of formulating a rational argument in order to back them up. His basic reading comprehension also appeared to be sorely lacking.

As an example of this - he posted a link to a page about a girl who had commited suicide a couple of months after taking part in a drug testing program, and claimed that the girl was murdered by 'teh evil corporation'. This despite the fact that the woman had had a prior history of depression and suicide attempts and also that the coroner's opinion was that there was no link between the drug trials and the suicide.

After several pages of discussion in transpired that TRA believed that the girl had been purposefully driven to suicide by the pharmaceutical corporation for reasons unknown and that the company had then bribed the coroner, police and others investigating the death.

His rationale for this? His dad had told him when watching The Sopranos that the way the world worked on screen was the way the real world worked. End of story. That was the complete justification for his claims.

When one is faced with someone trying to enter into debate with you who seems so lacking in the ability to relate one idea to another and formulate a cohesive argument, then there is the great temptation to attack them personally rather than the beliefs they hold. I believe this was the problem with TRA (aside from his other spamtastic tendencies).

That being said, I do get along with him when he isn't mocking the city and state of my birth or sarcastically dismissing my beliefs.
I also agree with this.

In my opinion and experience TRA wasn't directly being accosted for his unpopular beliefs, but rather because whenever one tried to enter into a dialogue with him it became clear how incapable he was of formulating a rational argument in order to back them up. His basic reading comprehension also appeared to be sorely lacking.

<snip for brevity>


That too. I don't think his irrationality explains the whole of it, but it was definitely a contributing factor. Good point.

Ok. I get your point.

Good. :) We cool?

That too. I don't think his irrationality explains the whole of it, but it was definitely a contributing factor. Good point.

Some of the more rational racist/revisionists may make better examples instead of TRA - certainly once they sent up their neo-nazi flags (even if they weren't directly trolling) people tended to engage them in debate with extreme prejudice.

That being said, I do get along with him when he isn't mocking the city and state of my birth or sarcastically dismissing my beliefs. I don't want to see him permanently banned from NationStates.

Neither do I. Hopefully I can send him a telegram to that effect and see if we can't get Eutrusca to give people a little more compassion too.

Neither do I. Hopefully I can send him a telegram to that effect and see if we can't get Eutrusca to give people a little more compassion too.
Save your wrists. Eut knows exactly what his sore spots are, and he's not about to gloss that over or show 'compassion' for certain opinions which he will never see eye to eye on.

Some of the more rational racist/revisionists may make better examples instead of TRA - certainly once they sent up their neo-nazi flags (even if they weren't directly trolling) people tended to engage them in debate with extreme prejudice.

Yeah, I noticed that with Kahta as well. There's a certain delicious irony in attacking the prejudiced with extreme prejudice, wouldn't you say? :)

Neither do I. Hopefully I can send him a telegram to that effect and see if we can't get Eutrusca to give people a little more compassion too.

No offense to your negotiating skills, but I certainly won't hold my breath. He has frequently expressed the opinion that his flaming isn't bad because he includes ":D" or ":)" or ":p" at the end of it, as if grinning while insulting someone makes it okay.

Eutrusca has been given one of the widest berths to flame, troll, and generally break the rules out of anyone I have ever seen on this forum in all the time I have been here. He regularly commits more egregious offenses than most people, and people have been forumbanned or worse for far less than what he gets away with on a regular basis. I have no sympathy for him getting "ganged up on" or however you put it, because he has earned his reputation and the consequences of said reputation. Frankly, I was shocked that he was not deleted within a month of coming to NationStates.

Well, I'm in agreement with Sdaeriji. I've had my share of disagreements with Sdaeriji in my time on NS, but he's never used insulting language when we've sparred in the past, and I haven't, either. We can be civil in our disagreements, or to use the tired old catchphrase, 'agree to disagree'.

Eutrusca, on the other hand, has. Many times. And yeah, I think for one reason or another, he's gotten off the hook. But just so you all know, contrary to what a certain NSer (Liverbreath) implied in Moderation earlier today, there is absolutely NO conspiracy afoot to make Eutrusca, or any other NSer, blow up in a tremendous flaming explosion and then turn 'round and report 'em for flaming.

To be honest, yesterday's reporting of Eutrusca came both as no surprise, and as a big surprise to me. No surprise insofar as it was due to happen eventually, and big surprise that it happened 'cause he got riled with me in particular.

I didn't have anything to do with how Eutrusca reacted and posted on NS. I was worried yesterday that some people were going to form a lynch-mob, and really thrash me for the whole incident. In fact, some suspicious part of me wonders if retribution has indeed come upon me in the form of spurious allegations of flamebaiting.

Time will tell.

Yeah, I noticed that with Kahta as well. There's a certain delicious irony in attacking the prejudiced with extreme prejudice, wouldn't you say? :)

Only ironic as a figure of speech: said posters were being pre-judged on the basis of their own track records rather than on the behaviour of their genetic grouping.

No offense to your negotiating skills, but I certainly won't hold my breath. He has frequently expressed the opinion that his flaming isn't bad because he includes ":D" or ":)" or ":p" at the end of it, as if grinning while insulting someone makes it okay.

Both your and Sinuhue's comments to that effect are duly noted. I'll probably give it a try anyway, sucker that I am. :D

No offense to your negotiating skills, but I certainly won't hold my breath. He has frequently expressed the opinion that his flaming isn't bad because he includes ":D" or ":)" or ":p" at the end of it, as if grinning while insulting someone makes it okay.
Instead of just being creepy. Seriously, someone saying something really nasty to me with a big grin on their face makes me MORE nervous than someone who is scowling.

I didn't get him banned, already.

Well, I'm in agreement with Sdaeriji. I've had my share of disagreements with Sdaeriji in my time on NS, but he's never used insulting language when we've sparred in the past, and I haven't, either. We can be civil in our disagreements, or to use the tired old catchphrase, 'agree to disagree'.

The only people I usually use insulting language towards are the people who make threads "WHY DO YOU BOTHER ARGUING!!! NO ONE WILL CONVINCE ANYONE OF ANYTHING!!!!" They drive me insane.

edit: Oh, and Snubis. God how I hated Snubis.

Only ironic as a figure of speech: said posters were being pre-judged on the basis of their own track records rather than on the behaviour of their genetic grouping.

Sometimes it was like that. Other times it seemed like if you were a newb and expressed an opinion that looked like it might be fascist or Nazi-like then you got attacked before even having a chance to explain. :(

A sad situation, no matter how personally offensive or silly I think those sort of beliefs are.

Instead of just being creepy. Seriously, someone saying something really nasty to me with a big grin on their face makes me MORE nervous than someone who is scowling.

*makes mental note to avoid fake insults in Sinuhue's presence*

*makes mental note to avoid fake insults in Sinuhue's presence*

Yeah. It's much better to just tell her what a great ass she has.

The only people I usually use insulting language towards are the people who make threads "WHY DO YOU BOTHER ARGUING!!! NO ONE WILL CONVINCE ANYONE OF ANYTHING!!!!" They drive me insane.

edit: Oh, and Snubis. God how I hated Snubis.

I thought he was just a troll and avoided him. Or her. I forget which he or she said they actually were in the end when s/he confessed to trolling.

Good. :) We cool?

Yeah, never thought we weren't. I don't dislike Eutrusca despite what has been said. It was more that I've seen him get so many chances that I've not seen other people get. It seemed unfair to the players who don't even do 1/4 of the flaming he has and get deleted. In fact Eutrusca and I have had some good exchanges on the forum. He just can't hold his temper and goes off on people. That was the only point I was trying to make in moderation yesterday.. that I was getting a little tired of him being treated differently than other players on this forum.

Myself, I've never had a warning let alone anything else. But when I see something I feel is unjust I speak up. Maybe not everyone does that. I do. It works both ways, I have defended people getting warnings too when I have felt the mods were being unfair to them. Despite what some may or may not believe, it really wasn't personal. It's just a forum on the net after all.

I thought he was just a troll and avoided him. Or her. I forget which he or she said they actually were in the end when s/he confessed to trolling.

I started getting into it with him back in the fall of 2003, when I was still a nice shade of green and had no concept of what a troll really was.

Yeah. It's much better to just tell her what a great ass she has.

Ah. The Sdaeriji approach. I've always admired that method. ;)

Yeah, I noticed that with Kahta as well. There's a certain delicious irony in attacking the prejudiced with extreme prejudice, wouldn't you say? :)
The fact is, anyone with an extreme position is going to get swamped, and asked to defend it. Some people will get insulting, and many will get warned for it...but as they say, if you can't stand the sun, put on some paba-free sunblock and wear long sleeves and a hat and don't go out after 3 pm.

Um...okay, not that clear, but anway, with so many of these white supremacists, even when asked to outline their platform, their goals, their vision or statement of beliefs, they refuse. Occidio Multus and I have both tried to let them open up and give a full explanation, rather than hijacking other threads, and not one ever really took us up on it. We even kept the anti-racists (as much as we could) out of the threads in an attempt to get these people to form a coherent argument. They can't seem to do it.

But they sure love ranting on about how they are persecuted for their beliefs, and how no one lets them speak and so on...

...they sure dummied up when that chance to speak was finally given. (free of all dissenting opinions no less! Christ, what else can you ask for?) Maybe they didn't have much to say after all?

I didn't get him banned, already.
Who said you did?

*makes mental note to avoid fake insults in Sinuhue's presence*
It all depends Tex...the particular comment made by Eut that got him banned is a good example of what I'm talking about. The smile made it worse, not better.

Yeah, never thought we weren't. I don't dislike Eutrusca despite what has been said. It was more that I've seen him get so many chances that I've not seen other people get. It seemed unfair to the players who don't even do 1/4 of the flaming he has and get deleted. In fact Eutrusca and I have had some good exchanges on the forum. He just can't hold his temper and goes off on people. That was the only point I was trying to make in moderation yesterday.. that I was getting a little tired of him being treated differently than other players on this forum.

I can understand your frustration with that. Hopefully everybody will be able to get some consideration like Eutrusca has.

Myself, I've never had a warning let alone anything else. But when I see something I feel is unjust I speak up. Maybe not everyone does that. I do. It works both ways, I have defended people getting warnings too when I have felt the mods were being unfair to them. Despite what some may or may not believe, it really wasn't personal. It's just a forum on the net after all.

I feel much the same way.

Well folks, I would love to stay and chat but I have delegates to telegram for my upcoming UN resolution and miles to go before I sleep. :)

Sorry, Sinu, I'm just feeling defensive, what with some of the insinuations of orchestrated gang-ups that were aired earlier today.

I was probably just as surprised as Eutrusca to find he'd been forumbanned, on account of his flaming me.

miles to go before I sleep. :)
That's a bit ominous, considering...

edit: Oh, and Snubis. God how I hated Snubis.

Oh yes, who could forget Snubis! Man that guy was a total dick. I 100% agree with you there. But he came and finally admitted he was solely trolling for responses. So I don't think our dislike of him was unfounded.

Sorry, Sinu, I'm just feeling defensive, what with some of the insinuations of orchestrated gang-ups that were aired earlier today.

Did I miss them?

Did I miss them?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9152034&postcount=7

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9152290&postcount=15

to which I responded,

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9152391&postcount=17

But I still feel like there are those who would just looooove to see me burn. And I guess that's why I'm feeling defensive.

Other times it seemed like if you were a newb and expressed an opinion that looked like it might be fascist or Nazi-like then you got attacked before even having a chance to explain. :(

Indeed - for example, if you or I started a thread about the plaques at Auschwitz-Birkenau, commenting that 4,000,000 people didn't die there, despite earlier official claims, instead 'only' 1,500,000, then I think it would be a pretty safe bet that we would have someone calling us neo-Nazi swine and revisionist scum before the end of the first page.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9152034&postcount=7

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9152290&postcount=15

to which I responded,

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9152391&postcount=17

But I still feel like there are those who would just looooove to see me burn. And I guess that's why I'm feeling defensive.
Wow. That is fucking ridiculous.

In fact, many of us on NS have long believed that there was a nice little 'rile up, then tattle on Dobbs' group around here, which considering past events has a hell of a lot more merit than this conspiracy theory. Allow me a rude :rolleyes: , and don't worry about it too much. The conservatives are always complaining that they get ganged up on, even as they gang up on the liberals...and visa versa. I think it makes people feel more important when they believe they are a persecuted group. That involves a bit of projection, but don't take it to heart.

Indeed - for example, if you or I started a thread about the plaques at Auschwitz-Birkenau, commenting that 4,000,000 people didn't die there, despite earlier official claims, instead 'only' 1,500,000, then I think it would be a pretty safe bet that we would have someone calling us neo-Nazi swine and revisionist scum before the end of the first page.
NEO-NAZI SWINE! REVISIONIST SCUM!

Oh shucks...we're already past the first page...I take it back. *insert smiley here, or take it out if it creeps you out*

Oh yes, who could forget Snubis! Man that guy was a total dick. I 100% agree with you there. But he came and finally admitted he was solely trolling for responses. So I don't think our dislike of him was unfounded.

Currently still trolling on Usenet under the handles Xomicron, Gactimus and Snubis. Uses the groups alt.snubis and alt.xomicron as his trophy rooms.

I will admit that I had him pegged for a troll on NS as I had already encountered him trolling and baiting in the newsgroups prior to his admission.

Currently still trolling on Usenet under the handles Xomicron, Gactimus and Snubis. Uses the groups alt.snubis and alt.xomicron as his trophy rooms.

I will admit that I had him pegged for a troll on NS as I had already encountered him trolling and baiting in the newsgroups prior to his admission.

I have to be honest, I thought he really was just that hard core stupid. It really appeared that he was serious to me, until he admitted to trolling the whole time. Mind you, that was back in 2003 I had a different nation at the time. It died of inactivity. I guess I could of got it brought back, but I sort of like this nation name better, so I stuck with it. :)

I don't dislike Eutrusca despite what has been said. It was more that I've seen him get so many chances that I've not seen other people get. It seemed unfair to the players who don't even do 1/4 of the flaming he has and get deleted.I actually put Eutrusca on my Jolt ignore for a time when I saw him post some threads I thought were particuarly baiting or hostile. I removed him when I noticed that he was replying to *my* posts respectfully.

I don't dislike Eut, but if he gets deated, he's certainly had his chances.

Mind you, that was back in 2003 I had a different nation at the time. It died of inactivity.

Who were you, by the way?

Who were you, by the way?

Oh, I wasn't very memorable back then. Come to think of it, I'm not very memorable now either..lol

No offense to your negotiating skills, but I certainly won't hold my breath. He has frequently expressed the opinion that his flaming isn't bad because he includes ":D" or ":)" or ":p" at the end of it, as if grinning while insulting someone makes it okay.
I've personnally considered those smilies to mean the same as [joking].

granted some don't get it, and when I do find out that they took it the wrong way, I apologize.

I've personnally considered those smilies to mean the same as [joking].

granted some don't get it, and when I do find out that they took it the wrong way, I apologize.

Yes, most of us do. However the way he does it, it's quite clear he's not joking. I believe it's his "escape clause" in case he get's called on his flames, so to speak.

Yes, most of us do. However the way he does it, it's quite clear he's not joking. I believe it's his "escape clause" in case he get's called on his flames, so to speak.
Yup.

Yes, most of us do. However the way he does it, it's quite clear he's not joking. I believe it's his "escape clause" in case he get's called on his flames, so to speak.

It's always seemed that way to my eyes. Don't think it's incredibly effective, though.

did eutrusca get banned?

did eutrusca get banned?

IIRC, he got a three week forumban.

did eutrusca get banned?

Yup. 2-week forumban.

IIRC, he got a three week forumban.

No, his first was a three-day ban, this one is a two-week ban.

No, his first was a three-day ban, this one is a two-week ban.

Ah. I must have got them switched in my head.

did eutrusca get banned?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9146411&postcount=13

It would appear so.

I wish I had the facts on hand, but remember seeing "pigfucker" used earlier by a different poster. And I want to say it was pointed at Eutrusca.

I had seen a number of personal attacks on him in recent days, but never thought to keep track of them. maybe I should have. I have seen several instances of direct personal attacks against him, mentioned it on one occasion and was accused of being a follower of his or something like that.

Well, then... maybe you should have, at that.

oh my broken and bleeding liberal heart

can't say that I am not surprised. that guy could never seem to control his anger. I dont think he shoudl be deated but perhaps hits ban might knock some sense into him. not that the 3 day ban did anything, his first post back from that was flaimbait, flaming and trolling all wrapped up into one.

Well, then... maybe you should have, at that.

I could do another Eutrusca's "Greatest Hits" post.

I could do another Eutrusca's "Greatest Hits" post.

Not quite following you there, Sdaeriji. Did I miss something?

Nont quite following you there, Sdaeriji. did I miss something?

Yeah, back in Eutrusca's earlier days, he made a thread in Moderation complaining about someone flaming. I was in a particularly foul mood and had been getting increasingly irate with Mr. Eutrusca's flames, so I did this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7611942&postcount=7).

Oh.

Wow.

That's... just...

Wow.

i dont like to bump this thread but thanks for the info. i had stopped reading that thread when it got utterly out of control. i hate being out of the loop.

Sometimes it was like that. Other times it seemed like if you were a newb and expressed an opinion that looked like it might be fascist or Nazi-like then you got attacked before even having a chance to explain. :(

Judging on the behaviour displayed yesterday here - http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=428829

...it seems that emo kids have taken the place of neo-Nazis as the new hate figures for NS General.