NationStates Jolt Archive

I have just watched the evening news and I almost cannot believe what I just heard:

According to the German Consumer Advice Centers, fuel prices for regular gas in Germany could be rising to equal US-$ 8.30* per gallon - rise within months, that is!

Now, if that isn't bad news I don't know what is! (besides all the other crap going on in the world... but that's not for here)

Even now the prices for gasoline are extremely high: US-$ 5.60* per gallon.

I'd be interested in what you think about the whole issue and if you can think of some solutions.
(Partially inspired by the "what will our cars drive with"-thread which has progressed too far for me to read up)

By the way, going to war to secure ressources is not a valid option in this thread.

*(I did the math with the following numbers:
1 US-gallon = 3.785 liters and 1 US-$ = 0.82 €uro)

Time for Germany to cut their fuel taxes before the economy grinds to a halt...

Wait, a gallon of gas isn't that high yet. In Southern California (where it's the highest, I believe, in the whole nation), the prices haven't got above the $3.00 mark yet.

Wait, a gallon of gas isn't that high yet. In Southern California (where it's the highest, I believe, in the whole nation), the prices haven't got above the $3.00 mark yet.

Talking about in Germany, converted to dollars.

Well, time to see if German unemployment can breach 15 or even 20%. Their anti-business policies will kill their economy, and these gas prices are only one aspect of it. Who will transport goods at these prices?

Is it Germanys taxes or the fact that everybody is falling all over themselves to do business in India and China? Hmmm adding several 100 million more gas consumers?

Somebody posted that China was now the second largest Gas consumer......

You lazy yanks think you have it so tough. In the south of England (Though not other parts of Britain, for some reason) you can usually expect to pay ninety pence per litre.

You lazy yanks think you have it so tough. In the south of England (Though not other parts of Britain, for some reason) you can usually expect to pay ninety pence per litre.
How much does it take to fill a tank?

Is it Germanys taxes or the fact that everybody is falling all over themselves to do business in India and China? Hmmm adding several 100 million more gas consumers?

Somebody posted that China was now the second largest Gas consumer......

The price of gasoline in Europe is due to taxes/environmental regulations. US gas is only averaging $2.13, but we consume more and less efficently than Germany, with 3x as many people. Germany averages $5.50/gallon without taxes added due to the insane amount of environmental laws and restrictions.

Yeah, the taxes are one thing (not sure how much but s.th. like 60-70 €uro-cents per liter is tax)

But Germany is broke and one way of making money is taxing gas... (And yes, it is an economy killer.)

Problem is, though, the tax has been there - it's the crude oil prices that worsen the situation.

The price of gasoline in Europe is due to taxes/environmental regulations. US gas is only averaging $2.13, but we consume more and less efficently than Germany, with 3x as many people. Germany averages $5.50/gallon without taxes added due to the insane amount of environmental laws and restrictions.

$5.50 already includes all the tax on gasoline. And the environmental laws are not insane but sensible.

All those gas-guzzlers are what really ticks me off. (Who needs SUVs anyway?!? it worked fine for years without them!)

Yeah, the taxes are one thing (not sure how much but s.th. like 60-70 €uro-cents per liter is tax)

But Germany is broke and one way of making money is taxing gas... (And yes, it is an economy killer.)

Problem is, though, the tax has been there - it's the crude oil prices that worsen the situation.
Nah, not really, it's more the overregulation of the job market that's killing Germany, the companies (which are highly competative and extremely well poised to take the export market by storm) simply can't risk taking on more people because of the hoops that they have to jump through to get rid of them. Gasoline prices have very little to do with it, especially in places that tend to be less let's ride down I-95 for fun and more public transportation based (and more fuel efficient).

Yeah, the taxes are one thing (not sure how much but s.th. like 60-70 €uro-cents per liter is tax)

Problem is, though, the tax has been there - it's the crude oil prices that worsen the situation.

There is plenty of crude oil. To beat down oil prices, three things are needed:

1. New refineries to eliminate the supply bottleneck.
2. New technology/more efficent gas usage
3. Eliminate/cut down the "risk premium": About $15 dollars of the current crude prices are due to fears of supply disruption/ terrorism. When the insurgency in Iraq is defeated and Zarqawi captured, prices will fall considerably.

To eliminate the budget crisis, Europe has to cut its social programs. Simply put, the socialist state does not work. Its economy falters and it will collapse because taxes become obscenely high for those who invest in a country or work there to pay for the massive unemployment benefits of those who don't.

There is plenty of crude oil. To beat down oil prices, three things are needed:

1. New refineries to eliminate the supply bottleneck.
2. New technology/more efficent gas usage
3. Eliminate/cut down the "risk premium": About $15 dollars of the current crude prices are due to fears of supply disruption/ terrorism. When the insurgency in Iraq is defeated and Zarqawi captured, prices will fall considerably.

To eliminate the budget crisis, Europe has to cut its social programs. Simply put, the socialist state does not work. Its economy falters and it will collapse because taxes become obscenely high for those who invest in a country or work there to pay for the massive unemployment benefits of those who don't.
Sweden: Real Growth Rate (2000) GDP - real growth rate: 4.3%


Not too bad for a 'socailist' state.

$5.50 already includes all the tax on gasoline. And the environmental laws are not insane but sensible.

All those gas-guzzlers are what really ticks me off. (Who needs SUVs anyway?!? it worked fine for years without them!)

Sorry, I misread the statistic. $5.50 is the cost after tax. :)

Well, the environmental laws drive up the price of everything, chase away emploment, and have led to budget and economic crises. The benefits are outweighed by the sheer amount of damage they do. With dried up investment, massive unemployment, and a budget crisis, it seems things have gone over the edge.

I hate SUVs as well, but only the consumer can stop them from being produced.

Ihatevacations']How much does it take to fill a tank?

I wouldn't know, I drive a car!

*Applause/Laughter*

But seriously, it depends on the car. Most cars in Britain are have a 1.5 - 2.0 litre engine, and do about 40 or more miles to the gallon. As opposed to a stretch HMMWV that does 3 if you're lucky.

Sweden: Real Growth Rate (2000) GDP - real growth rate: 4.3%


Not too bad for a 'socailist' state.

Sweden has a smaller population, so it's costs aren't as high. Plus, it's economy is geared towards foreign exports, so there aren't the same restrictions on trade as in other countries. They also lack the subsidies on agriculture, have fiscal responsibility, and continuously pursue modern industry.

Sweden is a good example of how to mix social benefits and economic growth. The rest of Europe should follow theirs and England examples.

If only it were as simple as that.

Prices in Sweden definitely are not low, that's for sure - and it is easier to manage a "smaller" nation, populationwise.

I think Germany is not flexible enough to adapt easily.

Another (if not the) big problem with Germany is the price of the reunification: West Germany has already "pumped" more than 1000 Billion €uros into East Germany over the last 15 years.

That, and the fact that Germany somehow missed the last decade when it comes to globalization. Smartly done, that could have financed much of the East German build-up.


Sweden has tame inflation, so living standards have risen to keep up with costs. It really is a great economic picture there.

I agree. The East German costs should have been financed by East Germans, not the West. Globalization would finance costs, create high-paying jobs, and help bring money in to the economy. The situation would solve itself, and undoubtedly prices would be lower.

But gas prices are not only rising in Germany. I mean, I remember the turmoil when the gas price reached $ 1,- per gallon (I was in the States then).

As to taking Scandinavia as an example - If only it were as simple as that.
(GB is not really a good example for they've had the Iron Lady in the 80s which changed a lot to say the least. Those reforms were not done by Germany).

Prices in Sweden definitely are not as low as you may think, that's for sure - and it is easier to manage a "smaller" nation, populationwise.

I think Germany is not flexible enough to adapt easily.

Another (if not the) big problem with Germany is the price of the reunification: West Germany has already "pumped" more than 1000 Billion €uros into East Germany over the last 15 years.

That, and the fact that Germany somehow missed the last decade when it comes to globalization. Smartly done, that could have financed much of the East German build-up.

I wouldn't know, I drive a car!

*Applause/Laughter*

But seriously, it depends on the car. Most cars in Britain are have a 1.5 - 2.0 litre engine, and do about 40 or more miles to the gallon. As opposed to a stretch HMMWV that does 3 if you're lucky.
*stab for the bad joke
and does that answer the question?

By the way, comparing gas prices is a pain in the ass:

1) € vs. $
2) gallon vs. liter
3) miles per gallon vs. liters per kilometer

But gas prices are not only rising in Germany. I mean, I remember the turmoil when the gas price reached $ 1,- per gallon (I was in the States then).

As to taking Scandinavia as an example - If only it were as simple as that.
(GB is not really a good example for they've had the Iron Lady in the 80s which changed a lot to say the least. Those reforms were not done by Germany).

I think Germany is not flexible enough to adapt easily.



I remember that as well. :)

Europe made great progress shifting to the Euro zone, but more needs to be done to integrate them farther. More reform is needed, and Germany should take the lead (they are the biggest economy, after all) in this. Europe has a great opportunity given its educational level, but there has to be a way to keep the budget in line without economy-crippling taxes.

By the way, comparing gas prices is a pain in the ass:

1) € vs. $
2) gallon vs. liter
3) miles per gallon vs. liters per kilometer

I think it is €1=$1.20 or so

1 gal= 3.875 L

1km=.62 mi

Why can't the US switch to the metric system? :(

By the way, comparing gas prices is a pain in the ass:

1) € vs. $
2) gallon vs. liter
3) miles per gallon vs. liters per kilometer
do it the chemsitry way with funny tables


dollar|€|gallon
gallon|$|miles

add extra calculations until your out of em

flip as necesary -_-

And then another thing that comes into play:

The German people are afraid of what's to come and therefore save their money like never before.

Germany's domestic market has broken down over the last years, almost stagnating, and the only thing that kept us going was the export market.

A high €uro didn't really help in export, but it ensured low ressource prices.

Thanks, guys. That's how I calculated the price in $ per gallon in the first place ;)

(*looks down on scribbled notes*)

A high €uro didn't really help in export, but it ensured low ressource prices.

This is unfortunate because what helps the US hurts the Euro zone, and that helps Europe hurts the US. This imbalance in regard to commodity prices is bad because the US and Europe have to work together to ensure economic stability. The petrodollar isn't mutually beneficial unless the currencies move proportionately so as to prevent price imbalances, which is almost impossible.

...
Europe made great progress shifting to the Euro zone, but more needs to be done to integrate them farther. More reform is needed, and Germany should take the lead (they are the biggest economy, after all) in this. Europe has a great opportunity given its educational level, but there has to be a way to keep the budget in line without economy-crippling taxes.
Yes, we should get our act together. Introduce a 10 years plan and stick to it. Maybe think about though, and make it gooood!!!

If I told you how screwed up the German educational system is (3 different kinds of schools depending on "how smart" you are) and a broke University system (they just introduced study fees all over the place which renders it almost impossible for "poor" people to get a decent education).
We should adapt the Scandinavic school system and especially look to Finland!

(All of this coming from a future highschool teacher.)

@Vetalia: Yes, it is unfortunate. Then again, we are working together when it comes to making money elsewhere.

Hey, send the extra three dollars of charge over here. It's too damn cheap. I wonder how many SUVs you guys have...considering the gas prices.

By the way, comparing gas prices is a pain in the ass:

1) € vs. $
2) gallon vs. liter
3) miles per gallon vs. liters per kilometer
Not to mention that UK gallons differ from US gallons. Anyway, once you take all that into account, British pertrol costs about US$6.50 per US gallon. And our economy's doing just fine, thank you very much.

Hey, send the extra three dollars of charge over here. It's too damn cheap. I wonder how many SUVs you guys have...considering the gas prices.
Cool :cool: Now I might even consider buying a car and helping the economy!

And there are quite a few SUVs and sports cars and limos and such around.
Zee Germans luuuuuv their cars, you know. And the Autobahn. :)

Not to mention that UK gallons differ from US gallons. Anyway, once you take all that into account, British pertrol costs about US$6.50 per US gallon. And our economy's doing just fine, thank you very much.
Doesn't driving on the left side compensate for that?

Yes, your economy is doing better, but if you look back to the UK 80s, things have been different.

The problem is that the German people were made believe that the reunification could be paid for on the nod/on tick.

Just to clarify, I meant you stay $5.60 whatever, but we are charged $5 instead of the $2 it is now. And people say that is high.

Whoops, my bad. I thought you were gonna cover some of my charges :D

As sensible as raising prices might be - the US economy couldn't take it, not even taking your average John Doe into account.

I think Germany is not flexible enough to adapt easily.

That, and the fact that Germany somehow missed the last decade when it comes to globalization. Smartly done, that could have financed much of the East German build-up.

For which Slovakia says thank you. That, and the German Unions with some of their more absurd labor demands.

http://homepage1.nifty.com/backpackers/visa/flag/svk.gif

There is plenty of crude oil. To beat down oil prices, three things are needed:

1. New refineries to eliminate the supply bottleneck.
2. New technology/more efficent gas usage
3. Eliminate/cut down the "risk premium": About $15 dollars of the current crude prices are due to fears of supply disruption/ terrorism. When the insurgency in Iraq is defeated and Zarqawi captured, prices will fall considerably.

To eliminate the budget crisis, Europe has to cut its social programs. Simply put, the socialist state does not work. Its economy falters and it will collapse because taxes become obscenely high for those who invest in a country or work there to pay for the massive unemployment benefits of those who don't.

I agree with this. Hard to implement, but it's time to start thinking long-term solutions.

Isnt gas something like $4.00 a gallon over there already? I remember it was about 80p per liter in GB while I was there in 2002 (I think).
Still, quite a hike.
I wonder about the gas companies sometimes.
Back when I was in Oregon Shell (maybe) announced that they were closing their refinery in California because there 'wasnt enough demand'. Now the refinery in Oregon has to make gas for BOTH states, and for those who dont know, Cali has its own standards for gas, thus the refinery makes two DIFFERNT kinds of gas.
And of course, living in a tourist town, gas was already about 20 cents more than everywhere else.

Isnt gas something like $4.00 a gallon over there already? I remember it was about 80p per liter in GB while I was there in 2002 (I think).
Still, quite a hike.
I wonder about the gas companies sometimes.
Back when I was in Oregon Shell (maybe) announced that they were closing their refinery in California because there 'wasnt enough demand'. Now the refinery in Oregon has to make gas for BOTH states, and for those who dont know, Cali has its own standards for gas, thus the refinery makes two DIFFERNT kinds of gas.
And of course, living in a tourist town, gas was already about 20 cents more than everywhere else.

About 85p per litre at the moment

Back when I was in Oregon Shell (maybe) announced that they were closing their refinery in California because there 'wasnt enough demand'.
This translates to "There wasn't enough demand to offset the cost of all the enviro regs that California wants."

This translates to "There wasn't enough demand to offset the cost of all the enviro regs that California wants."

California requires a higher grade of gas than any other US state. Thus, many companies don't want to build or operate refineries there because it costs more and is less profitable than in other places. That is why Cali gas is more expensive than the natl. average, sometimes moreso.

Hooray for public transport!

Hooray for public transport!

Build some high-speed trains (Cleveland to Columbus to Cincinnati?), and I'd ride them. Get rid of the waste of money Amtrak and build some modern lines instead of $295 bln. of new highways and ethanol subsidies,

Build some high-speed trains (Cleveland to Columbus to Cincinnati?), and I'd ride them. Get rid of the waste of money Amtrak and build some modern lines instead of $295 bln. of new highways and ethanol subsidies,


How about San Francisco to Los Angeles to Las Vegas in less than 5 hours! That would be awesome. *I think the trains would have to go like 120 mph.*

Or New York City to Albany to Boston

Or Milwuakee to Chicago to Detriot

*rambles for another hour or so...*

How about San Francisco to Los Angeles to Las Vegas in less than 5 hours! That would be awesome. *I think the trains would have to go like 120 mph.*

Or New York City to Albany to Boston

Or Milwuakee to Chicago to Detriot

*rambles for another hour or so...*

I'd pay a tax to cover them. In the end, the money saved on gas would be more than any tax to support the lines, as long as they are fast and well run. Only stops at major cities, not at every town that wants to open a station either.

I could go on for another hour as well! :D

I'd pay a tax to cover them. In the end, the money saved on gas would be more than any tax to support the lines, as long as they are fast and well run. Only stops at major cities, not at every town that wants to open a station either.

I could go on for another hour as well! :D

I think we scared everyone off with our potential hour long rambles. This might be a good thing, we have the thread to ourselves! Hooray!

I think we scared everyone off with our potential hour long rambles. This might be a good thing, we have the thread to ourselves! Hooray!

That could be bad. The mods might be on spam patrol (any thread with only a couple posters could be considered spam!) :eek:

That could be bad. The mods might be on spam patrol (any thread with only a couple posters could be considered spam!) :eek:

*Was gone when you said mods.*

California requires a higher grade of gas than any other US state. Thus, many companies don't want to build or operate refineries there because it costs more and is less profitable than in other places. That is why Cali gas is more expensive than the natl. average, sometimes moreso.
Isn't that what I said?

Isn't that what I said?

Pretty much, but I wanted to expand it so more recent posters didn't have to go back as far. :)

Or New York City to Albany to Boston

There already is the Acela high-speed electric train between New York City-Providence-Boston (which is currently down due to brake problems). And there already is a high-speed turboliner train between Albany and New York City (which is also currently down, but this time due to...air conditioning problems. :)).

-----------------------------

As for German fuel-price problems, it's all due to those East Germans with their gas gusslizing Trabbis!!! :)

(Trabbi is short for Trabant.)

I think we scared everyone off with our potential hour long rambles. This might be a good thing, we have the thread to ourselves! Hooray!
Nay. You have not and it is not and you don't! :(:rolleyes::mad: ( -> :D !)

As for German fuel-price problems, it's all due to those East Germans with their gas gusslizing Trabbis!

Zee East Germans and their super-power two-stroke engines? Blue smoke? Geez Louise, no! :D:D:D

Just a thought - it's bigger than just the gas price. Increased energy costs hamper the industrial sector as well. About 66% of the oil used in the US is used for transportation, but that also includes diesel fuel for transporting goods. High energy costs severely hampers the economy of most nations.

Some interesting numbers here:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/oil_market_basics/Demand_text.htm

I'll pull out my "Texas Rose" banana seat Huffy.

California requires a higher grade of gas than any other US state. Thus, many companies don't want to build or operate refineries there because it costs more and is less profitable than in other places. That is why Cali gas is more expensive than the natl. average, sometimes moreso.

VERY TRUE!!

I heard on NPR awhile back there there are OVER 300 KINDS of gasoline in the US. 87 octane in Indiana, Connecticut and California are all refined differently. That's a significant cost, and (I'm willing to be) at LEAST 200 of those varieties are unnecessary... :(

Maybe this is common knowledge:

For every penny per gallon that gas prices rise, $1 billion gets sucked out of the economy. Good article on gas price vs. economy:

http://www.mutualofamerica.com/articles/Fortune/May04/fortune.asp

So how much harm is done to the economy by self-imposed environmental restrictions on gasoline, i.e. California requiring special gas. I understand that Cali gas costs many cents more at the pump because of the increased manufacturing and distribution cost.

I fully understand that it's about the environment, but I wonder if anyone ever did a cost:benefit analysis. And how the voters would have reacted if they had those facts.

Maybe this is common knowledge:

For every penny per gallon that gas prices rise, $1 billion gets sucked out of the economy. Good article on gas price vs. economy:

(...)

I fully understand that it's about the environment, but I wonder if anyone ever did a cost:benefit analysis. And how the voters would have reacted if they had those facts.
Maybe this is common sense:

For every °C the global temperature rises (yes, I do assume that global warming does exist and also affects the U.S.) the amount of $$$-loss because of bad harvests, increasing numbers of hurricanes and floods and related natural desasters cannot even be numbered yet.

The equasion you'd have to make is economy vs. ecology. Without an intact eco-system, all economy is screwed and it's about time people realized that!

Apparently, since you left out the "preserving nature"-aspects completely, you do not fully understand that it's about the environment. The cost:benefit analysis should also include longterm influences on the environment. If it did that, you would already be paying higher prices at the pump since your gasoline prices do not reflect the "real" price of fuel.

Seriously though the UK price is way higher and we still have traffic problems, its a storm in a teacup

Just a question....

What is the fuel economy on German vehicles?

I always assumed under the thinking that the prices generally even out a bit between the US and the world via the fact that US cars are much larger and get worse fuel economy...but those were unresearched assumptions based on small car = better fuel economy.

Maybe this is common sense:

For every °C the global temperature rises (yes, I do assume that global warming does exist and also affects the U.S.) the amount of $$$-loss because of bad harvests, increasing numbers of hurricanes and floods and related natural desasters cannot even be numbered yet.

The equasion you'd have to make is economy vs. ecology. Without an intact eco-system, all economy is screwed and it's about time people realized that!

Apparently, since you left out the "preserving nature"-aspects completely, you do not fully understand that it's about the environment. The cost:benefit analysis should also include longterm influences on the environment. If it did that, you would already be paying higher prices at the pump since your gasoline prices do not reflect the "real" price of fuel.

An honest cost:benefit analysis should include ALL factors, and not be skewed to favor on argument or the other. Such analyses should be performed more frequently, rather than make laws and regulations based on emotion, blind opinion, or wishful thinking.

I'm not holding out hope that this will happen, but it would be interesting to see how voters would decide if they had factual guidance.

You may know that the Cali-gas was legislatively required many years ago, long before global warming was considered.