NationStates Jolt Archive

Pretty Stupid Trafalgar Celebrations (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4625255.stm)

This year it is the Bicenntial anniversary of Nelson's victory over the French and the Spanish fleets at Trafalgar in 1805. The victory ensured British domination of the seas until the beginning of of World War One, over a century later.

As part of the celebrations, the Queen is inspecting the Royal Navy (and a large collection of foreign ships) and a re-enactment is taking place. However this isn't a re-enactment of Trafalgar as we know it. Instead of the Spanish and the French fighting the British, the titanic duel will now be fought between the Red Fleet and the Blue Fleet.

That really is political correctness gone mad. You would have thought that in the 200 years that have passed, the French and the Spanish would have been able to accept that they got beaten. However it is not their fault - this is British history, New Labour style. Essentially any patriotic/national pride is removed so we don't offend (on the off chance) the French.

By the time 2045 to celebrate 100 years since the end of World War Two, we shall have to call the Nazi's the Grey Army and the Allies, the Green Army just in case we offend the Germans.

i think its right that we should have the red and blue fleets, we dont need to gloat over our victory.

i think its right that we should have the red and blue fleets, we dont need to gloat over our victory.

You are kidding, right? Just because we use our name and their name during a re-enactment doesn't mean we're GLOATING about it.

Unless we concede the blues beat the reds in the 100 years war? or does that get to be the French?

does it really matter?

i think that it is gloating by the way. well done the authorities for calling them red and blue.

Huzzah! and in a speight of other "friendly" historical redesignings, the Romans are the "purples", the Mongol hordes are the "golds" and Alexanders Empire is the "slightly off-yellows"

It's not gloating. it's history. We have to deal with enough re-writings of it, we don't need to create any more just to be nice to the people we've beat.

Essentially any patriotic/national pride is removed so we don't offend (on the off chance) the French.

Probably a good idea since we have the pride of the french navy sitting in the Solent which could flatten half the south at any given time...


....



...ohhhhh wait, thats a good thing :D

maybe it's just because they aren't British, Spanish and French fleets?

maybe it's just because they aren't British, Spanish and French fleets?

They are in the re-enactments. The reds didn't beat the blues in Trafalgar. The British beat the French and the Spanish. It's history, it's not wrong for us to use the real names of the countries, unless, as I said, we want to learn of the vast purple republic and Empire?

i think you are being quite petty. as in 'thats what happened so it HAS to be exactly the same'. no, it doesent! its just polite to not make the french and spanish feel even slightly uncomfortable.

i think you are being quite petty. as in 'thats what happened so it HAS to be exactly the same'. no, it doesent! its just polite to not make the french and spanish feel even slightly uncomfortable.

Perhaps they should have thought of that when they were trying to invade all of Europe? (this is a pithy retort, and not something that should really be considered in the reply)

I am a bit of an amateur historian, so yes, I feel that history should be repeated as it was. New angles should be taken on it, but I feel that changing the names of countries that were beaten by us just so they don't feel bad about being beaten is petty in itself.

You'll notice that this is the British gov't doing this. The spanish and the French haven't commented. perhaps they don't care, after 200 years?

Pretty Stupid Trafalgar Celebrations (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4625255.stm)

This year it is the Bicenntial anniversary of Nelson's victory over the French and the Spanish fleets at Trafalgar in 1805. The victory ensured British domination of the seas until the beginning of of World War One, over a century later.

As part of the celebrations, the Queen is inspecting the Royal Navy (and a large collection of foreign ships) and a re-enactment is taking place. However this isn't a re-enactment of Trafalgar as we know it. Instead of the Spanish and the French fighting the British, the titanic duel will now be fought between the Red Fleet and the Blue Fleet.

That really is political correctness gone mad. You would have thought that in the 200 years that have passed, the French and the Spanish would have been able to accept that they got beaten. However it is not their fault - this is British history, New Labour style. Essentially any patriotic/national pride is removed so we don't offend (on the off chance) the French.

By the time 2045 to celebrate 100 years since the end of World War Two, we shall have to call the Nazi's the Grey Army and the Allies, the Green Army just in case we offend the Germans.

Damned shame. That would be like holding an American Civil War re-enactment, but erasing the unit names, flags, and adopting generic non-equivalents at Gettysburgh.

Why is it that so many so-called 'intellectuals' want to bastardize or erase history to play to present-day sentiment? More importantly, why is it that people allow them to?

Cleaned and sanitized history leads to repeats of its worst excesses, because the lessons are removed in making it 'family friendly' or 'politically correct.'

I don't believe this - WE WON.

History dictates this so why should we hide it? Just to please the French who don't like us anyway? Its our celebration to which the French and the Spanish were invited and as such we should not be ashamed of saying that the British fleet beat the Spanish and French fleets.

i think its right that we should have the red and blue fleets, we dont need to gloat over our victory.
All the political correctness in the world can't change history. There was a real battle and Lord Nelson whipped the French, not the reds or blues, or whatever color. I think the battle deserves a little gloating, but celebrating the facts doesn't amount to any gloating.

I think you need to turn out for the celebration all decked out in British colors. Carry a British flag ...

If the french and spanish had won, us british wouldn't hear the end of it. I say it should be celebrated correctly.

jordaxia-

im reading history in october at uni, and it really doesent bother me at all that the reenactment isnt 100% accurate. in fact, the reenactment wont be 100% accurate at all.
maybe the french and spanish havent commented, but i think that they would have been quietly upset if we had have not called them the blues (or are they the reds?).

NBG-

this is what i meant by gloating. 'we won, they didnt, so why should we do something to please them?'

Actually I am surprised Nelson isn't being played by a black, transgendered, gay, deaf Muslim. New Labour is usually all for representing minority groups.

its not about pleasing anyone, if anything, its about softening blows.

lol. labour are just like that

jordaxia-

im reading history in october at uni, and it really doesent bother me at all that the reenactment isnt 100% accurate. in fact, the reenactment wont be 100% accurate at all.
maybe the french and spanish havent commented, but i think that they would have been quietly upset if we had have not called them the blues (or are they the reds?).




Re-enactments are sanitised and inaccurate enough. Why should we take pains to worsen it? What's the point of even re-enacting it if it doesn't even make a stab to represent history? that's a waste of money. I agree with Cadillac-Gage.

I don't believe this - WE WON.

History dictates this so why should we hide it? Just to please the French who don't like us anyway? Its our celebration to which the French and the Spanish were invited and as such we should not be ashamed of saying that the British fleet beat the Spanish and French fleets.
what if we lost? would you be so forward in your support for the French to
rub the salt in our wounds if they had won?

the fact is we are celebrating the fact that we won the battle in other ways than just the re-enactment.
it is rightly renamed, imho. how would you like it if you saw on TV a re-enactment of a humiliating and crushing defeat of your countries' navy? a small dent in your national pride, no? and lets not forget how proud the French are ;)
the fact that it happened 200 years ago doesn't spoil the fact that the re-enactment is happening today. we should celebrate the victory in the normal manner for the other parts of the celebration, but a little tact is needed for the re-enactment itself for this reason.

what if we lost? would you be so forward in your support for the French to
rub the salt in our wounds if they had won?

the fact is we are celebrating the fact that we won the battle in other ways than just the re-enactment.
it is rightly renamed, imho. how would you like it if you saw on TV a re-enactment of a humiliating and crushing defeat of your countries' navy? a small dent in your national pride, no? and lets not forget how proud the French are ;)
the fact that it happened 200 years ago doesn't spoil the fact that the re-enactment is happening today. we should celebrate the victory in the normal manner for the other parts of the celebration, but a little tact is needed for the re-enactment itself for this reason.


well put.

Ah but PM you know the French would rub it in!
They are like that.

Britain bet France!
Is Nelson going to be called Admiral Crimson and are they going to fire handy-Towels at each other?

what if we lost? would you be so forward in your support for the French to
rub the salt in our wounds if they had won?

the fact is we are celebrating the fact that we won the battle in other ways than just the re-enactment.
it is rightly renamed, imho. how would you like it if you saw on TV a re-enactment of a humiliating and crushing defeat of your countries' navy? a small dent in your national pride, no? and lets not forget how proud the French are ;)
the fact that it happened 200 years ago doesn't spoil the fact that the re-enactment is happening today. we should celebrate the victory in the normal manner for the other parts of the celebration, but a little tact is needed for the re-enactment itself for this reason.


It doesn't affect me at all. if I was to get worked up by say, Dunkirk, Jutland, Market Garden, the US war of Independence, the War of 1812, Isandlwana, or any other British defeats, I'd be an exasperated person. It annoys me when people only call British soldiers in the colonial era redcoats.

what if we lost? would you be so forward in your support for the French to
rub the salt in our wounds if they had won?

the fact is we are celebrating the fact that we won the battle in other ways than just the re-enactment.
it is rightly renamed, imho. how would you like it if you saw on TV a re-enactment of a humiliating and crushing defeat of your countries' navy? a small dent in your national pride, no? and lets not forget how proud the French are ;)
the fact that it happened 200 years ago doesn't spoil the fact that the re-enactment is happening today. we should celebrate the victory in the normal manner for the other parts of the celebration, but a little tact is needed for the re-enactment itself for this reason.

I will not watch the re-enactment nor will I take any pride in it. It has nothing to do with Trafalgar in my opinion as it has been robbed of all dignity and pride in favour of having a reworked politically correct version that maintains none of the splendour nor meaning of the actual event.

If the French had wanted to worry about their hurt pride, perhaps they should have considered that before trying to invade us.

If the French had wanted to worry about their hurt pride, perhaps they should have considered that before trying to invade us.


it was 200 years ago.

They are in the re-enactments. The reds didn't beat the blues in Trafalgar. The British beat the French and the Spanish. It's history, it's not wrong for us to use the real names of the countries, unless, as I said, we want to learn of the vast purple republic and Empire?
Did anyone read the artical?
Second Sea Lord, Vice Admiral Sir James Burnell-Nugent, said the event was "a celebration of a battle at sea at the time of Nelson - not an exact mock-up of the British and French at Trafalgar".

BLUE FLEET: Flag returned

BLUE FLEET: Flag returned

I approve of this statement.

Is Nelson going to be called Admiral Crimson and are they going to fire handy-Towels at each other?
no! Captain Scarlet! and the French can be the Mysterons :D

Buggering bloody hell...I wonder, you know, will we be allowed to remember anything we've done well at under the hegemony of pacifists/liberals/New Labour/whichever bunch(es) of fools are responsible for this damnable alteration of history? Or are we going to enter a slightly comical version of Airstrip One, where all of Britain's triumphs are ascribed to whoever the government sees fit? Will the Industrial Revolution be ascribed to, say, Holland? Will we suddenly find that the British Empire was in fact mostly created by arabs? Where will the butchery of history end?

What I find worst, however, is that Russians and Germans, who have a hell of a lot more reason for mutual hate than the French, seem able to get on with one another, as do Japanese and Americans. They seem able to face the reality of their past - that they committed terrible acts, that they won some and lost some, and that (although it was in the past) they all have some cause for pride in themselves. Yet the craven Blairites are so spineless, so dedicated to not offending anyone (except, of course, for those of us who still have some pride left in our battered nation) that they'll doctor our history for the sake of currying favour with a group of whining Frenchmen who're presently trying to demolish our EU rebate while keeping the CAP (the one thing keeping French farming solvent) intact.

What happened to this country? How did we go from being a nation of Empire-builders to a nation of weak, browbeaten fools?

Not at my most eloquent here, am I? Still, my point stands. Assuming it can be read.

It doesn't affect me at all. if I was to get worked up by say, Dunkirk, Jutland, Market Garden, the US war of Independence, the War of 1812, Isandlwana, or any other British defeats, I'd be an exasperated person. It annoys me when people only call British soldiers in the colonial era redcoats.

Dunkirk: the British pulled off one of the most amazing feats in military science at Dunkirk-they managed to extract a viable force from a trap, retained the coherence of their army against a technologically superior foe who held better terrain and was pressing his attack.

Jutland: I thought the Royal Navy won at Jutland, which was why the Germans didn't have the fleet to take out their sea-trade?

Market-Garden: Monty got arrogant. It happens to even the very best commanders-but it wasn't a rout, and it didn't destroy the rest of the allied advance. Market-Garden was a slaughter, but it was also a draw.

American War of Independence: was overshadowed by British conflicts with France, and resulted in a net-gain for the United Kingdom in getting rid of an unprofitable collection of rebellious colonies while still retaining a significant presence on the North American continent.

1812: was a draw, Territorial status ante-bellum, the only "Loser" being whoever it was in the British Government that thought a show of force would convince those Yank Rebels to return to the fold after a couple decades of independence. It also probably pissed off the Admiralty, since they couldn't go impressing American Merchies into Royal Navy service. A hundered and five years later, Great Britain got some english-speaking allies whose armies weren't half-worn-out and shellshocked to come give a hand in dealing with the Kaiser-again, a strategic win for Great Britain.

Islandwhana: Minor defeat, the British Army learned more that would be more useful later from that, than it cost them in manpower.
They still won that war.


Now... Trafalgar. WTF, Over?? The Royal Navy won a major victory that turned the tide not only in terms of world maritime history, but also in terms of ending Napoleon's little empire in Europe. Sea-superiority in 1805 is like Air-Superiority is today. You couldn't win a continent-wide war without it.
You guys need to look into firing some politicians and getting a government that isn't someone else's yes-man.

i think you are being quite petty. as in 'thats what happened so it HAS to be exactly the same'. no, it doesent! its just polite to not make the french and spanish feel even slightly uncomfortable.
So what about english civil war re enactments? WWII? Norman invasion of Britain?
No it's b#ll#cks!
Do the British get upset when the US celebrate July 4th? NO, we even let US workers in gov offices celebrate.
So if others are a bit touchy about historical events, the frankly I'm not sorry!

Buggering bloody hell...I wonder, you know, will we be allowed to remember anything we've done well at under the hegemony of pacifists/liberals/New Labour/whichever bunch(es) of fools are responsible for this damnable alteration of history? Or are we going to enter a slightly comical version of Airstrip One, where all of Britain's triumphs are ascribed to whoever the government sees fit? Will the Industrial Revolution be ascribed to, say, Holland? Will we suddenly find that the British Empire was in fact mostly created by arabs? Where will the butchery of history end?

What I find worst, however, is that Russians and Germans, who have a hell of a lot more reason for mutual hate than the French, seem able to get on with one another, as do Japanese and Americans. They seem able to face the reality of their past - that they committed terrible acts, that they won some and lost some, and that (although it was in the past) they all have some cause for pride in themselves. Yet the craven Blairites are so spineless, so dedicated to not offending anyone (except, of course, for those of us who still have some pride left in our battered nation) that they'll doctor our history for the sake of currying favour with a group of whining Frenchmen who're presently trying to demolish our EU rebate while keeping the CAP (the one thing keeping French farming solvent) intact.

What happened to this country? How did we go from being a nation of Empire-builders to a nation of weak, browbeaten fools?

Not at my most eloquent here, am I? Still, my point stands. Assuming it can be read.

As a Yank, I sympathize, because we had eight years recently of leadership more concerned with "World Opinion" than they should have been. Your people aren't the browbeaten fools, though. I suspect they're more or less quiescent party-voters who rarely pay attention to things that don't immediately affect their lives in a direct way, that being the default setting when a Nation is not being hammered by an enemy at the gates.

Your problem, is a Leadership that wants to appear "Cosmopolitan", and has no respect for the history, traditions, or culture that got you through hard years like hte 1650's, the 100 year's war, the Napoleonic wars, the Crimea...
that Leadership problem is deeper than a few Politicos, it's ingrained into your upper-class, just like it is over here in America-our wealthiest and most prominent citizens want to be 'liked' by outsiders more than they want to support their own neighbours, fellow citizens, even their children.

Given that Great Britain has more experience, I hope you find a solution to this on your own, before you become a vassal-state to someone else.

In the near future, everyone will know that the Americans beat the British, French and Spanish at Trafalgar. There will be a big movie about it and everything. :p

History will remember this day as the day we spat in the face of Nelson and his men on a milestone celebration of his victory. So far as I'm concerned, that also means they are spitting in the faces of every man, woman and alien who's ever fought to defend the British people in any conflict, ever.

In the near future, everyone will know that the Americans beat the British, French and Spanish at Trafalgar. There will be a big movie about it and everything. :p

yikes. I hope not.

In the near future, everyone will know that the Americans beat the British, French and Spanish at Trafalgar. There will be a big movie about it and everything. :p

Trafalgar: The Delux edition.

The year is 1888 (do you think this is wrong enough for people to think it's deliberately wrong?) and the mighty thousand ship navy of the USA is closing in on its toughest target yet. Armed with only turbolasers, the American navy engages the combined British, Spanish, and Freedom (some things never change) Navy, and against all odds, come out on top. -Warning. May contain scenes of mild peril.

History will remember this day as the day we spat in the face of Nelson and his men on a milestone celebration of his victory. So far as I'm concerned, that also means they are spitting in the faces of every man, woman and alien who's ever fought to defend the British people in any conflict, ever.
Let's not forget that Geordie lad Collingwood.

Pretty Stupid Trafalgar Celebrations (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4625255.stm)

This year it is the Bicenntial anniversary of Nelson's victory over the French and the Spanish fleets at Trafalgar in 1805. The victory ensured British domination of the seas until the beginning of of World War One, over a century later.

As part of the celebrations, the Queen is inspecting the Royal Navy (and a large collection of foreign ships) and a re-enactment is taking place. However this isn't a re-enactment of Trafalgar as we know it. Instead of the Spanish and the French fighting the British, the titanic duel will now be fought between the Red Fleet and the Blue Fleet.

That really is political correctness gone mad. You would have thought that in the 200 years that have passed, the French and the Spanish would have been able to accept that they got beaten. However it is not their fault - this is British history, New Labour style. Essentially any patriotic/national pride is removed so we don't offend (on the off chance) the French.

By the time 2045 to celebrate 100 years since the end of World War Two, we shall have to call the Nazi's the Grey Army and the Allies, the Green Army just in case we offend the Germans.


That does seem to belittle the history of the battle.

Red vs. Blue ahahahahha!

Maybe, its not that, but that they want to get the other guys navies involved (i.e not just spain, britain and France) So they have teams instead of countries.

Or maybe its just a bit of fun, notsuppose dto be a true reenactment?

Maybe, its not that, but that they want to get the other guys navies involved (i.e not just spain, britain and France) So they have teams instead of countries.

Or maybe its just a bit of fun, notsuppose dto be a true reenactment?
Well don't do it on what used to be a national holiday. Let's have another bank holiday, Trafalger day.

I'll give the Brits a groan of sympathy. And besides, if you're going to be sour about getting your ass whooped two-fucking-hundred years ago, you've got some problems you should deal with. If it was a genocide, yeah I can understand that. But um... Napoleon? Yeah. I believe the word is 'trounced'.

Anglo French relatins don't at present need any ferther degrading buy either sides. While I don't like the Blue/Red idea I do like the fact that there is not "mines bigger than yours is" nationalism being allowed in. Surely it would have been better to call the fleets Nelson's and who ever the other guy was Fleet, so historically acurate without being nationalistic. Or Better still no ponsy mock battles for under worked Admirals, a simple review and some salutes then everyone goes back to work.....

Did anyone read the artical?
Second Sea Lord, Vice Admiral Sir James Burnell-Nugent, said the event was "a celebration of a battle at sea at the time of Nelson - not an exact mock-up of the British and French at Trafalgar".

No, Seosavists, it doesn't look like anyone read that bit of it.

Nor has anyone thought about how ships flying national flags attacking each other will look to, say, anyone who tunes in to it on TV halfway through. Remember what War of the Worlds did?

(Arright, so it's not a major concern, what with the age of the ships, but what if they did a reenactment of something from WWII? Would you want to see reasonably-modern ships flying the British and German flags attacking each other?)

So what about english civil war re enactments? WWII? Norman invasion of Britain?
No it's b#ll#cks!
Do the British get upset when the US celebrate July 4th? NO, we even let US workers in gov offices celebrate.
So if others are a bit touchy about historical events, the frankly I'm not sorry!

Would we want the US rubbing it in our faces, waving the Stars'n'Stripes around London and yelling 'WE WON! WE BEAT YOU!' at us? I know /I/ wouldn't.

Yeah, I know it wouldn't be quite like that. Quite hard to have a sea battle in Paris.

Pretty Stupid Trafalgar Celebrations (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4625255.stm)
By the time 2045 to celebrate 100 years since the end of World War Two, we shall have to call the Nazi's the Grey Army and the Allies, the Green Army just in case we offend the Germans.
And our uniforms would still look better than the rest :p
You can't really offend us Germans except for a bad try to be PC. We don't like that too much!
(BTW, could we please, please win in 2045? That would really boost our low self-esteem :D )

Well considering that NBG and the rest are blowing steam over nothing as Seosavists has already pointed out, this is pretty pointless don't you think?

Would we want the US rubbing it in our faces, waving the Stars'n'Stripes around London and yelling 'WE WON! WE BEAT YOU!' at us? I know /I/ wouldn't.

Yeah, I know it wouldn't be quite like that. Quite hard to have a sea battle in Paris.
No but we would not celebrate our victory in Paris but Portsmouth!
And we do let Americans run around Britain celebrating the 4th of July if they want. It's a fact, it happened it changed history and was a long time ago.

Has the entire world gone MAD!?! Bloody hell, we seem to live in a world governed by political correctness and health and safety... Damn the French to hell if they make a fuss, we don't complain when we get attacked over say N. Ireland, or the partician of India (which lead to civil war). Why do we have to bow and scrape to every single person on the planet. The whold world would be so much better if these overacting busybodies stopped telling us what we can and acan not do or say.

I'll give the Brits a groan of sympathy. And besides, if you're going to be sour about getting your ass whooped two-fucking-hundred years ago, you've got some problems you should deal with. If it was a genocide, yeah I can understand that. But um... Napoleon? Yeah. I believe the word is 'trounced'.


if we still want to celebrate 'beating the frogs' 200 years later, weve got some problems we should deal with.

While I don't like the Blue/Red idea I do like the fact that there is not "mines bigger than yours is" nationalism being allowed in.

Hahaha, do you think the national leaders aren't aware of what's being celebrated or something? Do you think that this is all some big secret to all the national leaders, and only we know what the truth is?

Of COURSE the French know exactly what this is all about. They KNOW their part in the war. They KNOW they're playing the losing side. They KNOW everything we know. And everyone will still think whatever it is they thought before, regardless of the fact that they are now on the red team or whatever. Just like we know, and continue to think whatever it is we thought before. All this re-naming accomplishes is spitting in the faces of great men who fought for our country -- yes, on both sides.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4627469.stm

the french really have despite the tragedy it has been for them'
gotten over the defeat....

they would probably be indifferent wether it be blue or french

Well considering that NBG and the rest are blowing steam over nothing as Seosavists has already pointed out, this is pretty pointless don't you think?

Actually we are not. What the Navy spokesperson said was obviously an excuse in an attempt to deflect the guillible from the fact that this is a politically correct, dumbed down Trafalgar re-enactment. For heaven's sake there is even going to be a Nelson on one of the ships! Although the journalists are calling it a Trafalgar re-enactment. This re-enactment has also come under decided attack from historians as well.

You would have thought that in the 200 years that have passed, the French and the Spanish would have been able to accept that they got beaten.
But they do.

It's only British PC at work.

PS: How about the Royal Navy's sailors saying "Bang!" instead of shooting cannonballs during celebrations? LOL

The first thing that occurred to me is ... if you're worried about offending the French and Spanish, and want to avoid the appearance of rubbing their faces in it, maybe you shouldn't have invited them to celebrate the anniversary of Trafalgar, for Pete's sake.

This is just rediculous. If it was some kind of British pride march as a result of the battle I would have my doubts, but its a reenactment. Its not something thats supposed to push up the pride in the victors, its history. It WAS the British fleet which defeted the French. If we were marching through Paris rubbing their faces in it that would be diffrent, but we arnt. I think this is just political correctness gone mad.

It doesn't affect me at all. if I was to get worked up by say, Dunkirk, Jutland, Market Garden, the US war of Independence, the War of 1812, Isandlwana, or any other British defeats, I'd be an exasperated person. It annoys me when people only call British soldiers in the colonial era redcoats.
Theres half your problem thinking the War of 1812 was a loss!

The blues beating the reds might offend Soviet Russians ;)