NationStates Jolt Archive

For some reason I feel like im on crazy pills because it seems like half the country wants church and state to reconnect again in the U.S. This idea seems absurd, for seperation of church and state is the basis for the freedoms we have today. Am I alone in the preservation of this seperation, or is it that im focusing too much on worthless, crazy minorities that make themselves seem more powerful through advertisement? :(

I strongly believe in the nessisary seperation of church and state. I am very concerned over the actions this adminastration has taken to give more power & money to churches. Churches are not democratic and they can easily discriminate and have.

Churches shoud get tything not tax dollars!!!!

River Hawke

Seperation of church and state is important. But many people ignore the fact that in a democracy majority will prevails (unless it impinges too strongly on the minority). The majority in the US is Christian and as such many of the majority will vote according to their Christians beliefs.

As for it being the basis of freedom, it is only one of many, including: freedom of speech, seperation of powers, checks and balances, the right to bear arms, property rights, mobility rights, privacy rights, freedom of assembly, etc.

Seperation of church an state and these other freedoms are to prevent domination of the state by any single power.

Every group tries to assault one or more of these freedoms to advance their goals. Enviromentalists assault property rights to prevent enviromental destruction. Religious groups assault seperation of church and state to promote morality. Anti-racists assault freedom of speech to prevent racism. Gun control advocate assault the right to bear arms in order to protect people. And so on and so forth.

Every group tries to dominate their state. No single group should be allowed to dominate the state, whether this group be religious, ethnic, issue-oriented, economical or whatever.

No single group should be allowed to dominate the state, whether this group be religious, ethnic, issue-oriented, economical or whatever. Not like WASPS dominate it now… ;)

Not like WASPS dominate it now… ;)
They are the majority. Besides to call WASPS a single group is stretching it. The ideology among this group is extremely diverse. There are many fundamental differences between various groups withing this group.

But point taken.

The whole Church-State argument here is just being applied to the USA....In the UK various Bishops and the two Archbishops of the Curch of England have seats in the House of Lords and are allowed to vote (the Lords Spiritual). On the face of it, it seems wrong that they should have that power purely because of their status within the CofE, however they seem to do a good job of voting with their conscience on a wide range of issues. I am very much not a christian, but I value their role and accept that I live in an officially christian nation (after all, Her Majesty is the head of the Church).

In the USA though, many christian groups (forgive generalisations....I am aware of the diversity of views within the faith) seem a lot more severe in their views than over here, and strongly associate with the political right. I woud therefore fear for American freedoms....and the wider effects on the world if church leaders had an official political role in the USA :eek:

The whole Church-State argument here is just being applied to the USA....In the UK various Bishops and the two Archbishops of the Curch of England have seats in the House of Lords and are allowed to vote (the Lords Spiritual). On the face of it, it seems wrong that they should have that power purely because of their status within the CofE, however they seem to do a good job of voting with their conscience on a wide range of issues. I am very much not a christian, but I value their role and accept that I live in an officially christian nation (after all, Her Majesty is the head of the Church).

In the USA though, many christian groups (forgive generalisations....I am aware of the diversity of views within the faith) seem a lot more severe in their views than over here, and strongly associate with the political right. I woud therefore fear for American freedoms....and the wider effects on the world if church leaders had an official political role in the USA :eek:
Lol. Maybe it's a culture thing. Americans just don't run well under a Church-state system.

"The Christian Theocracy of America" That would be perfect!

For some reason I feel like im on crazy pills because it seems like half the country wants church and state to reconnect again in the U.S. This idea seems absurd, for seperation of church and state is the basis for the freedoms we have today. Am I alone in the preservation of this seperation, or is it that im focusing too much on worthless, crazy minorities that make themselves seem more powerful through advertisement? :(

i'm strongly against putting religion and state together. or any religion anywhere at all. unless ofcourse that religion is fascism, then it's perfectly fine, even good.

"Fascism is a religion. The twentieth century will be known in history as the century of Fascism."

Seperation of church and state is important. But many people ignore the fact that in a democracy majority will prevails (unless it impinges too strongly on the minority). The majority in the US is Christian and as such many of the majority will vote according to their Christians beliefs.

As for it being the basis of freedom, it is only one of many, including: freedom of speech, seperation of powers, checks and balances, the right to bear arms, property rights, mobility rights, privacy rights, freedom of assembly, etc.

Seperation of church an state and these other freedoms are to prevent domination of the state by any single power.

Every group tries to assault one or more of these freedoms to advance their goals. Enviromentalists assault property rights to prevent enviromental destruction. Religious groups assault seperation of church and state to promote morality. Anti-racists assault freedom of speech to prevent racism. Gun control advocate assault the right to bear arms in order to protect people. And so on and so forth.

Every group tries to dominate their state. No single group should be allowed to dominate the state, whether this group be religious, ethnic, issue-oriented, economical or whatever.

The there should absolutely be NO popular voting for any law/amendment that restricts rights. You should not be allowed to remove or keep removed rights just because it is popular

Since there is no legal basis for a seperation of church and state in the U.S., you can only complain on philosophical grounds. All the first amendment does is protect the church from the state, but the church can make the state its bitch within the law. A nonexistant seperation of church and state is yet another of the many problems handed to the U.S. by an overreaching Supreme Court.
Now if we didn't have gross ignorance and the judicial systems abuse of power, there could be actual legal seperations created that would save us from potential problems.
Anyways, now that I have sidetracked and confused myself, I will actually get to answering the question. I believe that the government shouldn't be putting money into churches (or anything charity based) but, if it feels the need to waste tax money on unconstitutional pursuits, I am more comfortable with the motives of faith based charities then non-faith based ones. At least the Jesus (or Allah, Jehovah, Steve Urkel, etc.) crowd has something that they hope to get out of their time.

The there should absolutely be NO popular voting for any law/amendment that restricts rights. You should not be allowed to remove or keep removed rights just because it is popular
I agree, but then again, you can't focus only on Christians for doing this. You also have to condemn anti-gun legislators, those who oppose polygamy, socialists and anybody else assaulting the right to private properry, anybody who tries to restrict free speech for hate reasons or any other reason, those who try to restrict freedom of religion, and so on and so forth. Every group tries to restrict the rights of others to advance their goal. To focus only on religious groups is kind of hypocritical.

I agree, but then again, you can't focus only on Christians for doing this. You also have to condemn anti-gun legislators, those who oppose polygamy, socialists and anybody else assaulting the right to private properry, anybody who tries to restrict free speech for hate reasons or any other reason, those who try to restrict freedom of religion, and so on and so forth. Every group tries to restrict the rights of others to advance their goal. To focus only on religious groups is kind of hypocritical.
I happen to agree … but this thread started as a separation of church and state topic so I kept it restricted within those bounds

I strongly believe in the nessisary seperation of church and state. I am very concerned over the actions this adminastration has taken to give more power & money to churches. Churches are not democratic and they can easily discriminate and have.

Churches shoud get tything not tax dollars!!!!
You want total separation of church and state? Repeal laws that allow the government to tax churches.

You want total separation of church and state? Repeal laws that allow the government to tax churches.
I'm under the impression that churches in the USA are not taxed.