NationStates Jolt Archive

Just a little something I'm wondering about the breakdown of different Christians' beliefs on the afterlife: who goes where? And as the name implies, only Christians voting on the poll please - otherwise the "other" option is going to get filled up with atheists trying to prove a point :rolleyes:

Discrimination!

ur choices are pretty bad..

ur choices are pretty bad..

How so?

I don't think God would let a truly good and moral person that did not believe in him suffer.

IMO, hell is not burning flames, simply an eternity spent away from God.

Which to me, would be worse than being tortured in hell.

Everybody who does not accept Jesus' forgiveness is going to hell. So basically everybody but Christians.

But Jews complicate the picture. Practicing Jews before Jesus' death are going to heaven, but as for those after, I am not sure. As well, certain non-jews before the Mosaic covenant are giong to heaven as well.

Myrth. :D

I don't think God would let a truly good and moral person that did not believe in him suffer.

IMO, hell is not burning flames, simply an eternity spent away from God.

Which to me, would be worse than being tortured in hell.

In God's eyes no one is moral or good, all our rightousness is simply filthy rags; therefore everybody deserves hell. Forgiveness and heaven are just an undeserved mercy.

As for hell, remove God's goodness and you don't need flames. With all humans do to each other with God's goodness and our consciences in place. Think of howhow horrible humans will treat each other without God's goodness or our consciences.

Everybody who does not accept Jesus' forgiveness is going to hell. So basically everybody but Christians.

But Jews complicate the picture. Practicing Jews before Jesus' death are going to heaven, but as for those after, I am not sure. As well, certain non-jews before the Mosaic covenant are giong to heaven as well.


So, Gandhi is going to hell? I think that's bullshit. People who lead moral lives should go as well. People like Gandhi and Buddha should not be comdemned to eternity of nothingness.

ACTUALLY!

Who's damned is God's choice. Stop trying to decide for Him.

Those who, when presented with the gospel, reject it. Also, those who, after having accepted the gospel, do not strive their hardest to emulate Christ.

ACTUALLY!

Who's damned is God's choice. Stop trying to decide for Him.


That too :D

In God's eyes no one is moral or good, all our rightousness is simply filthy rags; therefore everybody deserves hell. Forgiveness and heaven are just an undeserved mercy.

As for hell, remove God's goodness and you don't need flames. With all humans do to each other with God's goodness and our consciences in place. Think of howhow horrible humans will treat each other without God's goodness or our consciences.
You're frightening....

People like... Buddha should not be comdemned to eternity of nothingness.

:p but it's what he would have wanted...

Nobody is damned, you just come back and do it over until your soul evolves. There is no Hell save what you create for yourself with your own beliefs.

I'm not a religious person, but I am a follower of Jesus, does that make me qualified to respond?

If so I think heaven is a state of mind and religion should be used as a guideline to acheive that inner peace. If you can find another way that doesn't depend on organised religion I don't think this excludes you from acheiving inner peace. Unfortunately I think most people miss the point of Jesus' sacrifice and any one who would wish to exclude others from finding peace in themselves is not a true disciple of Jesus.

Remember when Peter asked Jesus about the fate of Judas of Iscariot, Jesus told Peter off.

So, Gandhi is going to hell? I think that's bullshit. People who lead moral lives should go as well. People like Gandhi and Buddha should not be comdemned to eternity of nothingness.

First off: Sadly, yes they are. Their righteousness is only moral compared to other humans, but in God's eyes they are immoral and deserve hell.

Second: If I remember correctly from my religion class (and I may not), the final goal of Buddhism is to transcend life and enter a final state of nothingness. So giving Buddha an eternity of nothingness might (if I am correct) be granting him what he seeks.

You're frightening....

Why am I frightening?

The United Church of Canada, even though they are devout Christians, have decided to adopt a vision of Hell and Heaven that could be considered as quasi-agnostic. They have also rejected the debates about predestination, in the same way.

The way I understand it:

We don't know about these things (predestination, afterlife, heaven, hell). Words are written in the Bible -- human words, mere words. What do we know? What do we understand of these things that we can't touch or feel? It's all about faith in a compassionate God.

We hope, we have faith in God, and that's the real point. Whether or not Heaven exists, or if it's a combination of Heaven+Hell, or if there's a corridor called "purgatory" on the way... it's all irrelevant. If we pretend to understand it, then we have it wrong -- we're not being humble. We'll be welcomed in the arms of God, into something that defies human comprehension.

The only thing that matters is to be a good person while you live. What happens afterward won't be of any importance to you right now, if you're being good. Because trying to be a truly good person, with the help of faith and with your understanding of the world -- that's the purpose of life, in a Christian way.

So it would be hypocrite to be good just because you think about Heaven and Hell. It wouldn't be true to yourself and to God. What's the value of compassion and charity, if it's calculated and given in the hope of a reward?

So...
Don't judge others, don't wish them sadness, failure or tragedy.
Be generous and compassionate, without calculating, and truly.
Keep a warm place for God in your life.
Throw away your charity counter.
The rest won't matter. ;)

All the christians are going to hell 'cause their religon is inherently evil. :mp5:

I tried to explain why you are frightening and I can't do it without knocking what you believe in, so I won't.

All the christians are going to hell 'cause their religon is inherently evil.


I thought this was a non-trolling thread :mad:

I thought this was a non-trolling thread :mad:
Is there any such thread ? as trollin hmmmmm only if you a christian that reads only the parts of the bible that u like and forgets to read the parts u don't like ........

All the christians are going to hell 'cause their religon is inherently evil. :mp5:

Even I didn't say something like that.

well those who believe christ did not die for our sins don't always go to hell. my viewpoint to this varries allot. But for now i believe christians who lead moral lives and seek forgiveness for their sins go to heaven, those that truly believe in god. Jews and Muslims all believe in the same god, just call it different names. Thus Jews and Muslims who are forgiven for sin in their religions way's deserve to go to heaven. soo those who believe in god do go to heaven. But who are we to judge. What if this God and the premice of religion was all created for people to have something to believe in, and find solace in the issue of life after death. I'm a "scientific christian" i think god said hey i should create something, and boom the big bang comes, then our earth is created and life begins as cells that evolve to be apes and then humans.

I tried to explain why you are frightening and I can't do it without knocking what you believe in, so I won't.
Knock away. I won't be offended. If I can't stand a little criticism for my beliefs I shouldn't talk to others about them. If having someone say something bad about my beliefs makes me insecure about them, than I should probably be examining them strongly anyway. I want to know so maybe we can discuss it and I can make myself less frightening.

First off: Sadly, yes they are. Their righteousness is only moral compared to other humans, but in God's eyes they are immoral and deserve hell.

Second: If I remember correctly from my religion class (and I may not), the final goal of Buddhism is to transcend life and enter a final state of nothingness. So giving Buddha an eternity of nothingness might (if I am correct) be granting him what he seeks.

1. Isn't everyone immoral compared to God, so don't they deserve hell, too?

2. Buddha talked of Enlightenment, which, I believe, is becoming One with the Universe.

All the christians are going to hell 'cause their religon is inherently evil. :mp5:

Why is Christianity inherently evil?

All are judged by God upon their deaths. Those who have sinned, who can comprehended what is right and wrong, are sent to Hell. The only exception are those who have accepted Jesus as their savior. In that case, He stands judgment for you. Since He is without sin, you are admitted into Heaven. It matters not your actions on this earth, for all sin is equal in God’s eyes and no good deed merits entry into heaven. The only way to heaven is through Jesus.

1. Isn't everyone immoral compared to God, so don't they deserve hell, too?

2. Buddha talked of Enlightenment, which, I believe, is becoming One with the Universe.

1) Yes everyone is immoral Christians included. I myself am extremely immoral, however hard I try not to be. Humans can't help but be immoral and therefore ALL humans deserve hell. But God loves us so much that he sent his son to pay for our sins so that we can be forgiven. All that seperates Christians going to heaven from everybody else going to hell is that Christians have accepted Chrsit's sacrifice and God's forgiveness. We are no better than anybody else. If anything we are worse, because we know what is evil and do it anyway.

2) Yup, but (if I remember) you become one witht he universe and enter a state of nothingness.

Whatever greater power is out there, it gave human beings the luxery of choice....or the curse of it. We decide whether to be damned or not. And good and evil are ambiguous terms - lets say a man killed another man and then saves a child from a fire - is he evil? Some may say, well, did he kill in cold blood or to defend himself, well isn't there a commandment that says oh I don't know - thou shall not kill? Complicated isn't it?

2. Buddha talked of Enlightenment, which, I believe, is becoming One with the Universe.

a) technically speaking there have been many Buddhas, as "Buddha" is merely a title meaning "awakened one", indicating enlightenment. The one you are probably speaking of is more properly known as Siddharta Guatama, and sometimes also as Sakyamuni, which means "Sage of the Saka" (Saka being the tribe/Hindu caste that he belonged to).

b) now the pedantry is out the way... Enlightenment may possibly be described as becoming "One with the Universe", but this also means that the Buddha's sense of self is lost as well. All the component parts of their soul are seperated, and in doing so they are freed from any kind of knowable world - they become one with nothingness. Unless of course the Buddha becomes a Bohdisatva, but that's another story :p

a) technically speaking there have been many Buddhas, as "Buddha" is merely a title meaning "awakened one", indicating enlightenment. The one you are probably speaking of is more properly known as Siddharta Guatama, and sometimes also as Sakyamuni, which means "Sage of the Saka" (Saka being the tribe/Hindu caste that he belonged to).

b) now the pedantry is out the way... Enlightenment may possibly be described as becoming "One with the Universe", but this also means that the Buddha's sense of self is lost as well. All the component parts of their soul are seperated, and in doing so they are freed from any kind of knowable world - they become one with nothingness. Unless of course the Buddha becomes a Bohdisatva, but that's another story :p
Thank you for the clarification.

Knock away. I won't be offended. If I can't stand a little criticism for my beliefs I shouldn't talk to others about them. If having someone say something bad about my beliefs makes me insecure about them, than I should probably be examining them strongly anyway. I want to know so maybe we can discuss it and I can make myself less frightening.

I've been through the whole Christianity thing for the better part of my life and have decided to drop the whole religion thing. The idea that anyone can view someone else as destined to go to hell is a condition that I don't feel is constructive. I don't know if there is a God and I feel that I shouldn't believe in things which are not known. If there is a God, I think he will understand that I was only being rational since He gave me the ability to rationalize. I couldn't ever believe that good people would get the same punishments in the afterlife as evil people. Hitler and Ghandi rooming together just doesn't fit for me.

I've been through the whole Christianity thing for the better part of my life and have decided to drop the whole religion thing. The idea that anyone can view someone else as destined to go to hell is a condition that I don't feel is constructive. I don't know if there is a God and I feel that I shouldn't believe in things which are not known. If there is a God, I think he will understand that I was only being rational since He gave me the ability to rationalize. I couldn't ever believe that good people would get the same punishments in the afterlife as evil people. Hitler and Ghandi rooming together just doesn't fit for me.
Understandable, it is also something I have struggled with at times as well.

But just as a question, what if entering heaven was based upon good works? Where would the line be drawn. Would John get in while Jack didn't because John didn't donate to the poor once while John did and Jack didn't quite have enough good deeds to get in. Would that seem fair?

As well, some Christians believe in varying degrees of hell. I don't have a position on this yet as I don't believe I know enough to come to one.

try the Bible?

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Romans 10:1-4, 13-15
Paul teaches that even pious Jews, and everyone else, must hear and believe in Christ to be saved.

Acts 10:1-2, 38-43; 11:13-18
The story of Cornelius, an incredibly devout, moral guy who worshipped the God of Israel, but was not saved until he heard about and believed in Jesus Christ.

Well, according to 50% of respondents to your poll, I'm going to hell. I dislike this thread, but I'm not such a psychological wuss as to report it to the mods.

Personaly, I think intolerant people (like say, 50% of the people who've respond to the poll at this time) will go straight to hell, directly to hell, do not collect $200.

Understandable, it is also something I have struggled with at times as well.

But just as a question, what if entering heaven was based upon good works? Where would the line be drawn. Would John get in while Jack didn't because John didn't donate to the poor once while John did and Jack didn't quite have enough good deeds to get in. Would that seem fair?

As well, some Christians believe in varying degrees of hell. I don't have a position on this yet as I don't believe I know enough to come to one.
I think you would get in based on what was in your heart. The condition of your spirit. And really, that's only something you and God would know anything about. It wouldn't be if a then b. Many people do very wonderful things but only to hear others talk about how wonderful they are. Maybe hell is a bit extreme for vanity but I was just trying to illustrate my idea.

Some may say, well, did he kill in cold blood or to defend himself, well isn't there a commandment that says oh I don't know - thou shall not kill? Complicated isn't it?


Actually, it's Thou shalt not murder. So we can be pretty sure that self-defense is justifiable. :)

Actually, it's Thou shalt not murder. So we can be pretty sure that self-defense is justifiable. :)
If we are making that arguement then as long as we legalize all forms of killing of other humans none of it will be murder
Therefore killing a human by any means will not be sinning

Why is Christianity inherently evil?

Well I'm glad someone asked ...... Lets start with what is evil ..... and what isn't evil .....

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Evil

adj. e·vil·er, e·vil·est

1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
3. Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
4. Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
5. Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.
n.

1. The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.
2. That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction: a leader's power to do both good and evil.
3. An evil force, power, or personification.
4. Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

Main Entry: 1evil
Pronunciation: 'E-v&l, British often and US also 'E-(")vil
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): evil·er or evil·ler; evil·est or evil·lest
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English yfel; akin to Old High German ubil evil
1 a : morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED <an evil impulse> b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct <a man of evil reputation>
2 a archaic : INFERIOR b : causing discomfort or repulsion : OFFENSIVE <an evil odor> c : DISAGREEABLE <woke late and in an evil temper>
3 a : causing harm : PERNICIOUS <the evil institution of slavery> b : marked by misfortune : UNLUCKY

Main Entry: 2evil
Function: noun
1 a : the fact of suffering, misfortune, and wrongdoing b : a cosmic evil force
2 : something that brings sorrow, distress, or calamity

2 diffrents sources does anyone object to their definations of "evil"

Well, according to 50% of respondents to your poll, I'm going to hell. I dislike this thread, but I'm not such a psychological wuss as to report it to the mods.

Personaly, I think intolerant people (like say, 50% of the people who've respond to the poll at this time) will go straight to hell, directly to hell, do not collect $200.
Why is believing that people are going to hell intolerant?

It would be intolerant if we tried to force it on others (as some Christians do). But just because otehrs have beliefs doesn't mean they're intolerant.

Why is believing that people are going to hell intolerant?
It not only intolerant, it's also sinful. How dare you name yourself a Judge, and try to judge people like God only has the right to?

You don't know shit about who's going to Hell. Nobody knows.

Well I'm glad someone asked ...... Lets start with what is evil ..... and what isn't evil .....

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Evil

adj. e·vil·er, e·vil·est

1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
3. Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
4. Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
5. Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.
n.

1. The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.
2. That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction: a leader's power to do both good and evil.
3. An evil force, power, or personification.
4. Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

Main Entry: 1evil
Pronunciation: 'E-v&l, British often and US also 'E-(")vil
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): evil·er or evil·ler; evil·est or evil·lest
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English yfel; akin to Old High German ubil evil
1 a : morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED <an evil impulse> b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct <a man of evil reputation>
2 a archaic : INFERIOR b : causing discomfort or repulsion : OFFENSIVE <an evil odor> c : DISAGREEABLE <woke late and in an evil temper>
3 a : causing harm : PERNICIOUS <the evil institution of slavery> b : marked by misfortune : UNLUCKY

Main Entry: 2evil
Function: noun
1 a : the fact of suffering, misfortune, and wrongdoing b : a cosmic evil force
2 : something that brings sorrow, distress, or calamity

2 diffrents sources does anyone object to their definations of "evil"
I agree, for the most aprt with those definitions except for 2 and 3b ofthe second definition, but seen as 2 is archaic and 3b is not the type of evil I think we are discussing< I think this definition will work fine.

Now you are probably going to bring up the Crusades, the Inquisition, the witch burnings, fuedalistic and monarchical oppression done in the name of the divine right, the destruction and colonialism of various peoples in the name of converting the "heathens", and any other of the almost uncountable abuses done in the name of Jesus. (If this debate follows the path most other similar debates follow).

But these do not in themselves prove that Christianity is inherently evil, all they prove is that "Christians" are humans given to evil. All it proves is that humans can pervert Christ's message for their own goals. The messengers and teh message are not one and the same.

is it just me or is god either a tyranicial barstard or completely religeonist. :headbang: :gundge: :mp5: :sniper:

It not only intolerant, it's also sinful. How dare you name yourself a Judge, and try to judge people like God only has the right to?

You don't know shit about who's going to Hell. Nobody knows.
I try not judge others. I do not say John is going to hell and Jack is going to heaven, as I do not have the ability to see what is in people's hearts. Doing that would be sinful and intolerant. I do not condemn others to hell or judge others as only God has a right to. I have no right as I am just as sinful and depraved as any other person.

I agree, I have no idea who is going to hell. I have no idea who is going to heaven. I do not know what is in the hearts of others.

But saying, in general, those who do not accept Jesus' forgiveness are going to hell is not intolerant, judgemental, or sinful. It is merely a statement of belief. Seen as this is (at least to those who believe in the truth of the Bible) a statement of what God says, it is not a statement of judgement but a statement of opnion (and truth, if you believe in the truth of the Bible).

I feel so left out >.>

is it just me or is god either a tyranicial barstard or completely religeonist. :headbang: :gundge: :mp5: :sniper:
He's omnipotent and created everything and everybody. He has a right to rule his creation however he so beleives and who are his creation to have the arrogance to say otherwise. As for being a religionist, he is kind-of. There is only one way to heaven, although it is not through religious ritual or "religion" but through a free gift of salvation and mercy.

I try not judge others. I do not say John is going to hell and Jack is going to heaven, as I do not have the ability to see what is in people's hearts. Doing that would be sinful and intolerant. I do not condemn others to hell or judge others as only God has a right to. I have no right as I am just as sinful and depraved as any other person.

I agree, I have no idea who is going to hell. I have no idea who is going to heaven. I do not know what is in the hearts of others.

But saying, in general, those who do not accept Jesus' forgiveness are going to hell is not intolerant, judgemental, or sinful. It is merely a statement of belief. Seen as this is (at least to those who believe in the truth of the Bible) a statement of what God says, it is not a statement of judgement but a statement of opnion (and truth, if you believe in the truth of the Bible).
Condemning someone to everlasting and eternal suffering based on their beleifs is quite intolerant, but thats just my opinion.

EDIT: Yes, I realize the hypocrisy inherent in this statement viz. my earlier post. Just goes to show you how ridiculous the entire concept of judging someone based on belief is.

I try not judge others. I do not say John is going to hell and Jack is going to heaven, as I do not have the ability to see what is in people's hearts. Doing that would be sinful and intolerant. I do not condemn others to hell or judge others as only God has a right to. I have no right as I am just as sinful and depraved as any other person.

I agree, I have no idea who is going to hell. I have no idea who is going to heaven. I do not know what is in the hearts of others.
Thumbs up! :cool:

(BTW, I am a Huguenot -- French language Protestant; we're a tiny minority)

PS:
I just can't stand people like Mel Gibson, who say "this person is going to Hell, this one's ok". Hey, in an interview he said that his wife is Catholic and therefore she'll go to Hell, which makes him sad. Even though she gives money to charities and is involved in social development. What a bozo.

There is only one way to heaven, although it is not through religious ritual or "religion" but through a free gift of salvation and mercy.

I'm going to ask on the off-chance that I'll get a good reply here, when I haven't elsewhere...

Does this mean that a person can break every single commandment in the Bible, then say 'Oh, by the way, God, I'm sorry for everything and I think Jesus is the only way to Heaven' and they'll go to Heaven, while someone who spends their entire life acting in a way that, without their knowledge, fulfils every requirement of the Bible, but /doesn't/ say that, will go to Hell? And if so, how is that justified?

On a related note, does this mean that anyone who never even hears about Christianity was marked down by God to go to Hell at the time of their birth? And what sort of justification can we make for that?

apes and then humans.

Actually, Apes are mostly consider close cousins of humans, not ancestors. A nitpick, I know. Felt I needed to point this out.

*Random quip*

The United Church of Canada, even though they are devout Christians, have decided to adopt a vision of Hell and Heaven that could be considered as quasi-agnostic. They have also rejected the debates about predestination, in the same way.

The way I understand it:

We don't know about these things (predestination, afterlife, heaven, hell). Words are written in the Bible -- human words, mere words. What do we know? What do we understand of these things that we can't touch or feel? It's all about faith in a compassionate God.

We hope, we have faith in God, and that's the real point. Whether or not Heaven exists, or if it's a combination of Heaven+Hell, or if there's a corridor called "purgatory" on the way... it's all irrelevant. If we pretend to understand it, then we have it wrong -- we're not being humble. We'll be welcomed in the arms of God, into something that defies human comprehension.

The only thing that matters is to be a good person while you live. What happens afterward won't be of any importance to you right now, if you're being good. Because trying to be a truly good person, with the help of faith and with your understanding of the world -- that's the purpose of life, in a Christian way.

So it would be hypocrite to be good just because you think about Heaven and Hell. It wouldn't be true to yourself and to God. What's the value of compassion and charity, if it's calculated and given in the hope of a reward?

So...
Don't judge others, don't wish them sadness, failure or tragedy.
Be generous and compassionate, without calculating, and truly.
Keep a warm place for God in your life.
Throw away your charity counter.
The rest won't matter. ;)
Devout Christians that...don't follow what the Bible teaches??

But these do not in themselves prove that Christianity is inherently evil, all they prove is that "Christians" are humans given to evil. All it proves is that humans can pervert Christ's message for their own goals. The messengers and teh message are not one and the same.

But you forgot the KKK Aryan Nations; Church of Jesus Christ Christian; Confederate Hammerskins; Jubilee; LaPorte Church of Christ; Kingdom Identity Ministries; and White Separatist Banner....... ect ect all of them christians and all still very much here today. Not done very much still doing, unlike your examples any reasons you didn't pick a modern example ? ..... but thats only a small part of this argument

well those who believe christ did not die for our sins don't always go to hell. my viewpoint to this varries allot. But for now i believe christians who lead moral lives and seek forgiveness for their sins go to heaven, those that truly believe in god. Jews and Muslims all believe in the same god, just call it different names. Thus Jews and Muslims who are forgiven for sin in their religions way's deserve to go to heaven. soo those who believe in god do go to heaven. But who are we to judge. What if this God and the premice of religion was all created for people to have something to believe in, and find solace in the issue of life after death. I'm a "scientific christian" i think god said hey i should create something, and boom the big bang comes, then our earth is created and life begins as cells that evolve to be apes and then humans.
I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father except through Me.

Or is that not in your Bible?

Devout Christians that...don't follow what the Bible teaches??

There's alot of em. Can't spit without hitting one these days. Most Christians are Hypocrites, which are damned by the Bible, if I remember correctly. They speak of charity, but have their hands tightly gripped around their wallets. You know the type.

But you forgot the KKK Aryan Nations; Church of Jesus Christ Christian; Confederate Hammerskins; Jubilee; LaPorte Church of Christ; Kingdom Identity Ministries; and White Separatist Banner....... ect ect all of them christians and all still very much here today. Not done very much still doing, unlike your examples any reasons you didn't pick a modern example ? ..... but thats only a small part of this argument
No real reason, it's just that, for the most part, Christianity has become more tolerant, and abuses today tend to be on a relatively small scale compared to the examples I mentioned, but all those stand just as well as what I mean..

But you forgot the KKK Aryan Nations; Church of Jesus Christ Christian; Confederate Hammerskins; Jubilee; LaPorte Church of Christ; Kingdom Identity Ministries; and White Separatist Banner....... ect ect all of them christians and all still very much here today. Not done very much still doing, unlike your examples any reasons you didn't pick a modern example ? ..... but thats only a small part of this argument
Just because a religion is dubbed a Christian religion doesn't mean that it's followers are automatically going to Heaven. What would be the point of having other religions if it were that simple?

There's alot of em. Can't spit without hitting one these days. Most Christians are Hypocrites, which are damned by the Bible, if I remember correctly. They speak of charity, but have their hands tightly gripped around their wallets. You know the type.
LOL
You're being so judgemental. You don't know me.

There's alot of em. Can't spit without hitting one these days. Most Christians are Hypocrites, which are damned by the Bible, if I remember correctly. They speak of charity, but have their hands tightly gripped around their wallets. You know the type.
I was talking about the Canadian church thing that says they don't know what to think about heaven, hell, or what not. It sounds to me like they're afraid to say what the Bible teaches because it might hurt some feelings. If you don't believe the entire Bible is God-breathed, what's the point of reading any of it?

No one person can know if their neighbor is going to hell or not, but their actions and words seem to lead towards that direction. The only way a person can be sure of eternal life is to accept Jesus as their Savior and believe that He died for our sins. That's what we believe. Whether or not you choose to believe it is up to you. All we can do is tell you and pray for you to believe.

I'm going to ask on the off-chance that I'll get a good reply here, when I haven't elsewhere...

Does this mean that a person can break every single commandment in the Bible, then say 'Oh, by the way, God, I'm sorry for everything and I think Jesus is the only way to Heaven' and they'll go to Heaven, while someone who spends their entire life acting in a way that, without their knowledge, fulfils every requirement of the Bible, but /doesn't/ say that, will go to Hell? And if so, how is that justified?

On a related note, does this mean that anyone who never even hears about Christianity was marked down by God to go to Hell at the time of their birth? And what sort of justification can we make for that?
A person can break every single commandment and then if they truly repent of their sin and accept forgiveness they will be forgiven.

If a person somehow manages to never sin then they would go to heaven, buit no person, other than Jesus, has ever avoided sinning.

It is not just. Justice would mean that every human goes to hell just as they deserve. It is mercy, not justice, that people can have the chance to be forgiven and go to heaven.

Those that have not heard about Jesus. This is tricky, some would say yes. But I believe that someone truly searching for God will have the path to forgiveness revealed to him/her even if not a completely full knowledge or not knowing Jesus by name. God will show the way to someone truly searching.

Those that have not heard about Jesus. This is tricky, some would say yes. But I believe that someone truly searching for God will have the path to forgiveness revealed to him/her even if not a completely full knowledge or not knowing Jesus by name. God will show the way to someone truly searching.
I do believe that if a person never hears, they still may go to Hell. You may be correct, in that God does manifest Himself to people out of the blue. It's on my hands and every other Christian's hands to get the message to these people that haven't heard. If not, then we aren't doing our job.

LOL
You're being so judgemental. You don't know me.

I didn't say all Christians were. But quite frankly, the most of Christians that I have come into contact with haven't even the smallest idea of what it means to be Christian. I lead a more Christian life than most "Christians" I know do. The only difference is, at this point in time I do not accept Christianity as necessarily true(But I do not claim that is false). I never meant to come of judgemental, but a large portion of CHristians are not Christian. They preach the parts of the Bible, but they do not live the Bible.

There's alot of em. Can't spit without hitting one these days. Most Christians are Hypocrites, which are damned by the Bible, if I remember correctly. They speak of charity, but have their hands tightly gripped around their wallets. You know the type.
All Christians are hypocrites. Humans can not help but be otherwise. Christians profess the Bible and the morality of the Bible, God's holy standard. But no human can possibly achieve God's holy standard on their own. All humans will sin, Christian or not. Any Christian who sins is being hypocritical, as they preach one thing and do another, but that is why God forgives. He realizes we are only human and gives is the chance to be forgiven through Jesus' sacrifice.

Although some are more hypocritical than others. As well, some practice on teh outside but our not believing on the inside, which is hypocrisy and is worthy of damnation.

Is there any such thread ? as trollin hmmmmm only if you a christian that reads only the parts of the bible that u like and forgets to read the parts u don't like ........ What, like the permissions to destroy cities how you like in Deuteronomy?
Elijah's fit of temper involving a bear and two children?
It annoys me when people hold up a verse or two of obviously human-changed scripture and think it proves or disproves anything. Surely you can do better…

As for the main question - well, morality is in itself God-given, so anyone truly moral is doing Godly things. It's the same way that immoral people are subtly serving the Devil's ends.

A person can break every single commandment and then if they truly repent of their sin and accept forgiveness they will be forgiven.

If a person somehow manages to never sin then they would go to heaven, buit no person, other than Jesus, has ever avoided sinning.

It is not just. Justice would mean that every human goes to hell just as they deserve. It is mercy, not justice, that people can have the chance to be forgiven and go to heaven.

Those that have not heard about Jesus. This is tricky, some would say yes. But I believe that someone truly searching for God will have the path to forgiveness revealed to him/her even if not a completely full knowledge or not knowing Jesus by name. God will show the way to someone truly searching.

I dunno... am I the only one who thinks that God should have thought this through a little further? I mean, I'm sure 'If they sin and don't ask for forgiveness, they go to Hell' sounded good at the time, but - even leaving aside issues over people who don't /know/ to ask forgiveness - it means that someone who sinned exactly once (unlikely, but possible, in theory) gets the same treatment as a mass murderer. Which doesn't seem particularly /right/ to my admittedly lesser mind.

Eh. Maybe it makes sense to him. Maybe he's just making it all up as he goes along. We'll find out eventually.

I was talking about the Canadian church thing that says they don't know what to think about heaven, hell, or what not. It sounds to me like they're afraid to say what the Bible teaches because it might hurt some feelings. If you don't believe the entire Bible is God-breathed, what's the point of reading any of it?

No one person can know if their neighbor is going to hell or not, but their actions and words seem to lead towards that direction. The only way a person can be sure of eternal life is to accept Jesus as their Savior and believe that He died for our sins. That's what we believe. Whether or not you choose to believe it is up to you. All we can do is tell you and pray for you to believe.

Ah. Gotcha. I misunderstood what you are getting at, and didn't realize you were referring to the Canadians.

And I have a question. Considering that God exists:

What if a non-Christian repents of sin upon judgement? What if their spirit, after death, comes to love god and ask forgiveness, not out of fear of punishment or being cast from Heaven, but out of true repentance and love of God(which was not realized in life)? I don't ask this for some hope if I am wrong of my core beliefs, I may still get into heaven(If this could happen, it would not matter what I would say, of course, as God would know my true intent), but because I am curious of this.

As for the main question - well, morality is in itself God-given, so anyone truly moral is doing Godly things. It's the same way that immoral people are subtly serving the Devil's ends.
Doctrine of predestination -- rejected by most modern Protestants groups.


By the way, about the Old Testament... Jesus wasn't clear whether or not His teaching would replace the religious traditions. He refused to answer to the apostle, dodging the question. Some theologians think that the New Testament might be the only valid reference for Christian faith and moral.
But I think I'm opening a can of worms now...
LOL


(Just smile, open your eyes and love God's creation. That's a good start. Boy it makes me happy.)

All Christians are hypocrites. Humans can not help but be otherwise. Christians profess the Bible and the morality of the Bible, God's holy standard. But no human can possibly achieve God's holy standard on their own. All humans will sin, Christian or not. Any Christian who sins is being hypocritical, as they preach one thing and do another, but that is why God forgives. He realizes we are only human and gives is the chance to be forgiven through Jesus' sacrifice.

Although some are more hypocritical than others. As well, some practice on teh outside but our not believing on the inside, which is hypocrisy and is worthy of damnation.

What I am referring to is those who claim to believe in God and his teachings, but knowingly don't follow it's teachings, or the ones who cherrypick parts of the Bible which conform to their own ambitions, not the ones who sin. I would not consider a sinner a hypocrite, but I would consider those who do not follow what they preach to be.

Since we don't know for sure who will be saved, we have to respect everybody and treat them like they're all going to Heaven. We don't have a soul reader, we don't know who will repent. That's why I try to see a true potential and some goodness even in the worse people.

Ah. Gotcha. I misunderstood what you are getting at, and didn't realize you were referring to the Canadians.

And I have a question. Considering that God exists:

What if a non-Christian repents of sin upon judgement? What if their spirit, after death, comes to love god and ask forgiveness, not out of fear of punishment or being cast from Heaven, but out of true repentance and love of God(which was not realized in life)? I don't ask this for some hope if I am wrong of my core beliefs, I may still get into heaven(If this could happen, it would not matter what I would say, of course, as God would know my true intent), but because I am curious of this.
I've never thought about that, but my first instinct would be to tell you no. The Bible says in Matt. 10: 32"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

This leads us to believe that unless you're a professed Christian on earth, you won't be allowed forgiveness after you leave earth.

Doctrine of predestination -- rejected by most modern Protestants groups.
This subject is often not touched by people for fear of hurting the feelings of the lost. I'm a Southern Baptist (yeh yeh) and I've discovered Romans 8:29-30: For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

or the ones who cherrypick parts of the Bible which conform to their own ambitions
Most conservative Christians do exactly that. They willfully ignore the parts about forgiving, not judging people, not fighting wars, giving their money to the poor (even to so-called SINNERS, or people with AIDS), and so on. They're not true Christians.

A good reference on the subject, and an enlightening book:
http://www.anewkindofchristian.com/


If I see a gay tattooed man lying in the street with a bleeding knee, I'll cut a sleeve from my shirt if I have to. Even if he smells like booze.

And I give muffins to the beggers so that they won't buy booze and eat a decent meal.

I play my whole life like if I'm damned, and I do all these good things even though I might not be saved. I always try to have an image of myself as damned, and an image of everybody else as saved. That's a good incentive for helping people, and making sure I don't become judgemental or buy myself heaven (or whatever there is). I try to stay humble.

I don't usually expose these generous things I do. But I think it fits in the debate.

I say "other". Everyone will go to damnation, there is no religion that holds the truth, despite the fact that nearly every religion claims to have it. Stupid humans.

Also, what the bible says about it means absolutely nothing. It's only one book from one out of many religions, written by humans. Why would I care about it?

Since we don't know for sure who will be saved, we have to respect everybody and treat them like they're all going to Heaven. We don't have a soul reader, we don't know who will repent. That's why I try to see a true potential and some goodness even in the worse people.
Our views of others, as Christians, should be to see their potential to accept Jesus and repent. If we look at everyone as sinners and hell-bound, how do we expect to convert anyone?

Don't get confused though, the Bible does teach that they are sinners and hell-bound, but that we should love them more than ourselves and try to share the truth with them.

Our views of others, as Christians, should be to see their potential to accept Jesus and repent. If we look at everyone as sinners and hell-bound, how do we expect to convert anyone?


Very nicely said.

Most conservative Christians do exactly that.
Thank you for saying MOST

I've never thought about that, but my first instinct would be to tell you no. The Bible says in Matt. 10: 32"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

This leads us to believe that unless you're a professed Christian on earth, you won't be allowed forgiveness after you leave earth.

Ah, good point. Not much to say on this point, as my main question you answered.

However, one must always remember that judgement is God's, and God's alone(Considering God exists, of course), thus it is difficult to speak in absolutes about such things as Damnation and Salvation. Truly, one cannot know necessarily how God works. To say that someone is Damned for any reason, quite frankly, is speaking as though one is God. Thus, one cannot be entirely sure of damnation, and one should not pass judgement onto others. Not making any really counterpoint to anything you said, just a statement.

Note: I am not advocating that I am Christian, just a major point of Christianity(Or as an Agnost sees it, anywho).

Our views of others, as Christians, should be to see their potential to accept Jesus and repent. If we look at everyone as sinners and hell-bound, how do we expect to convert anyone?
My Mennonite friends think exactly like that. They try to show to non-believers how good it is to know Jesus. They give the best of themselves, and are never pushy. They live a simple, happy life. I see them as an example to follow.
They had numerous discussions with Hinduist friends, who learned to respect them (and their beliefs) a lot.

1) Yes everyone is immoral Christians included. I myself am extremely immoral, however hard I try not to be.



1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.

1. The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.


well thats just cause your evil ;)

But anyway Dark Kanatia which bible do u read from

Thank you for saying MOST

Seconded. There are some truly good and honest Conservative Christians. Unfortunately, for the large part, most of them follow blindly the person in front of them, and don't know a lick about what they speak, only what the people in the front want tehm to think. Tis sad.

Oh, and this works on all levels. Most people of any particular group are hypocrites unto themselves. There are a very few that are good and honest, but the most just don't get it, to be frank.

Ah, good point. Not much to say on this point, as my main question you answered.

However, one must always remember that judgement is God's, and God's alone(Considering God exists, of course), thus it is difficult to speak in absolutes about such things as Damnation and Salvation. Truly, one cannot know necessarily how God works. To say that someone is Damned for any reason, quite frankly, is speaking as though one is God. Thus, one cannot be entirely sure of damnation, and one should not pass judgement onto others. Not making any really counterpoint to anything you said, just a statement.

Note: I am not advocating that I am Christian, just a major point of Christianity(Or as an Agnost sees it, anywho).
I think we should strive to know God as much as possible, but God is so extremely complex and massive that one can never fully know all of His wills and thoughts. He does manifest them to certain people, but to know God completely is to be God. No one can be entirely sure of the damnation of a person, but the Bible does give us ways that a Christian should act.

Seconded. There are some truly good and honest Conservative Christians. Unfortunately, for the large part, most of them follow blindly the person in front of them, and don't know a lick about what they speak, only what the people in the front want tehm to think. Tis sad.

Oh, and this works on all levels. Most people of any particular group are hypocrites unto themselves. There are a very few that are good and honest, but the most just don't get it, to be frank.
I claim myself conservative, but sometimes I am rather moderate. I don't really agree with the war issue, but that was settled before I could vote. I voted simply on a moral/economic policy stance. Of course, this shouldn't be debated, because this isn't a thread about politics. So stop before you guys start.

And yes, everyone is a hypocrite in some form or fashion.

Anyways, I'm off to sleep. I hope I've given some useful insight to you guys on the forum. If you're having questions about your faith or Christianity, don't hesitate to ask me or send me a telegram. I would be glad to attempt to help.

P.S. God loves everyone. It's the unrepented sin that He hates and that ultimately would keep us from eternity with Him if it weren't for Jesus becoming the sacrifice for us.

And yes, everyone is a hypocrite in some form or fashion. Stoppit… you're giving me a guilt attack.

I was just reading the bible, and it seems like these days EVERYONE is going to hell because no one lives up to the standards set forth by Jesus and his diciples.

I think we should strive to know God as much as possible, but God is so extremely complex and massive that one can never fully know all of His wills and thoughts. He does manifest them to certain people, but to know God completely is to be God. No one can be entirely sure of the damnation of a person, but the Bible does give us ways that a Christian should act.

And it is unfortunate that so many claim to know God entirely, and by doing so they obviously do not. That is where many problems occur with Christianity(Not saying Christianity is a problem, just an underlying cause): People claim that they know God, and God's will, and are willing to do any number of things to bring forth their version of God's Will, and what they believe God to want. They claim to know the entire complexity of God. It is truly unfortunate.

Well, it's late, and I'm off to bed.

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins. [Jesus]

"Who are you?" they asked.
----
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
----
He {Jesus} was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
----
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
----
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.
----
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.
----
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
----
He [a jailer] then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."

From the Holy Bible

And it is unfortunate that so many claim to know God entirely, and by doing so they obviously do not. That is where many problems occur with Christianity(Not saying Christianity is a problem, just an underlying cause): People claim that they know God, and God's will, and are willing to do any number of things to bring forth their version of God's Will, and what they believe God to want. They claim to know the entire complexity of God. It is truly unfortunate.

Well, it's late, and I'm off to bed.


You know what? It's the same with satanists. Or any religion really.

"THIS IS WHAT MY GOD COMMANDS!!! I had a vision while I was burning incence in my mom's basement and listening to Pink Floyd."

Like ANY god is going to want to talk to that guy.

I like to think about how embarrased gods must feel listining to the crap that goes on in their names. hee hee.

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins. [Jesus]

"Who are you?" they asked.
----
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
----
He {Jesus} was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
----
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
----
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.
----
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.
----
He [a jailer] then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."

From the Holy Bible


but what if you believe the wrong things? Is it enough to believe that Jesus was the Son of God and Savior of Mankind? Or must you do as he teaches and make many sacrifices?

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins. [Jesus]

"Who are you?" they asked.
----
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
----
He {Jesus} was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
----
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
----
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.
----
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.
----
He [a jailer] then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."

From the Holy Bible

And only /one/ of those, the last, gives an indication that belief in Jesus is /all/ you need. And I'm guessing that someone like that jailer was going to be pretty nice from then on. He didn't need telling. (No idea of the context, just guessing from the words)

Curious, that.

1 John 4:20
If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.



Good night all. ;)

well thats just cause your evil ;)

But anyway Dark Kanatia which bible do u read from
NIV because it's I got it for a Christmas present, but I have no real preference.

All-non Christians! Any other answer would be a contradiction to the meaning of Christianity. GOD bless!

Everybody is comdemned...or 'damned', as the topic says.

Romans 3:23: "For we ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

A teenager (let's call her Lucy) was walking home from church one day when she was joined by her youth pastor (let's call him Mark). They kept on walking, when Lucy turned to him and asked him, "Mark, what happens when we die? Do we all go to hell, or only those people who have sinned?"
Mark smiled and kept on walking, shaking his head slightly. "Lucy, have you ever lied?"
She stopped and looked at him, confused. "No."
"You just did. So you sinned. Have you ever stolen anything?"
"No. Well, does a pen count?"
"Everything counts. So you sinned again. Have you ever sworn?"
"Hell no!"
"You just did. So you sinned yet again. Lucy, we all sin. Therefore we're all condemned to hell."
"So the only way for us to escape hell is to accept Jesus Christ as our Saviour and Lord, right?"
"That's correct."


Okay....I'm done. at least for now. :P


O.o - I'm starting to sound like my dad! I think I'll stop now. lol. *scuttles off*

Everybody is comdemned...or 'damned', as the topic says.

Romans 3:23: "For we ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

A teenager (let's call her Lucy) was walking home from church one day when she was joined by her youth pastor (let's call him Mark). They kept on walking, when Lucy turned to him and asked him, "Mark, what happens when we die? Do we all go to hell, or only those people who have sinned?"
Mark smiled and kept on walking, shaking his head slightly. "Lucy, have you ever lied?"
She stopped and looked at him, confused. "No."
"You just did. So you sinned. Have you ever stolen anything?"
"No. Well, does a pen count?"
"Everything counts. So you sinned again. Have you ever sworn?"
"Hell no!"
"You just did. So you sinned yet again. Lucy, we all sin. Therefore we're all condemned to hell."
"So the only way for us to escape hell is to accept Jesus Christ as our Saviour and Lord, right?"
"That's correct."


Okay....I'm done. at least for now. :P


O.o - I'm starting to sound like my dad! I think I'll stop now. lol. *scuttles off*


What is this? NS does ChickTracks? Somebody shoot me :sniper:

All-non Christians! Any other answer would be a contradiction to the meaning of Christianity. GOD bless!


That is true only in the meaning that without love you cannot be one with god, not that you have to conform to the church or the bible, because that would be silly with all the diverse sects of christianity and conflicting interpretations of the bible.

I believe, but then again, I don't! I guess I'm going to Earth. :p

It comes intot he evolution and creation thing I guess.

All-non Christians! Any other answer would be a contradiction to the meaning of Christianity. GOD bless!
Are you a puppet sir (or ma`am)? This has been done before
Christian parody

What is this? NS does ChickTracks? Somebody shoot me :sniper:

Ah, come on, Chicky's good for amusement reading. (No offence to anyone who believes that stuff, but to outsiders, it's very funny. And the people seem to be convinced by the oddest things)

No one thought of a sixth option-
"I dont like the idea that an omnipotent diety is contsantly keeping me under survaillance. Ialso really dislike the idea that this diety in question can accuse me of thought crimes and sentance me, with out a jury of my fellow citizens, to eternal damnation. I think God had read a little bit too much George Orwell."

Ah, come on, Chicky's good for amusement reading. (No offence to anyone who believes that stuff, but to outsiders, it's very funny. And the people seem to be convinced by the oddest things)
Yeah, they're amusing, but I could do without the ex-Speedfreak Born-Again dressed in a terrible polyester (shade: hideous blue), urin-soaked complexion and whiny, nasal voice handing them out. Couldn't they just anonymously leave them in a pile somewhere for us to peruse at our leisure?

All-non Christians! Any other answer would be a contradiction to the meaning of Christianity. GOD bless!

Don't you mean GOD BLast? It would certainly be a truer expression of what such an unforgiving attitude causes.

I dont beleive in heaven, hell, any afterlife, or any kind of mystical energy/reincarnation stuff.... But if there is a Heaven and Hell i really would rather go to the latter... The eternal torment there would be preferable to the eternal torment of being surrounded by a bunch of intolerant, cocky, self-righteous, uncompassionate, crazed lunatics who will (according to themselves) occupy Heaven.

I dont beleive in heaven, hell, any afterlife, or any kind of mystical energy/reincarnation stuff.... But if there is a Heaven and Hell i really would rather go to the latter... The eternal torment there would be preferable to the eternal torment of being surrounded by a bunch of intolerant, cocky, self-righteous, uncompassionate, crazed lunatics.
As much as I believe that if god turns out to be the immoral one of Christianity (at least by my morals) that there will be a lot of amazing people in hell …

I hardly believe EVERYONE in heaven will be as you describe … and you would assume you could get some alone time up there as well

So, Gandhi is going to hell? I think that's bullshit. People who lead moral lives should go as well. People like Gandhi and Buddha should not be comdemned to eternity of nothingness.


i like Christ, not christians
-ghandi

So, Gandhi is going to hell? I think that's bullshit. People who lead moral lives should go as well. People like Gandhi and Buddha should not be comdemned to eternity of nothingness.

Makes sense to most of us humans. Sadly, we don't get to make the rules.

yea,i only read the first page, i couldnt bare to read the rest of it, the stupidity is astounding. good people go to heaven, bad people go to hell, and people in the middle go to purgatory until they are ready to go to heaven. whats so difficult about this??

its the Bible thumping protestants which give all Christians a bad name. so what if your a Jew? so what if your a Muslim? if you believe in God and try and follow his teachings wheter it be through Islam, Judeism, or Christianity, your going to go to heaven. just because you dont believe in Jesus doesnt mean your going to hell.

Catholic teaching says that people who completely turn away from God damn themselves to Hell (as in committing mortal sin). Those who are sanctified to the point of heroic virtue go straight to heaven--these people can be declared saints of the Church. Most people go to heaven, but they enter heaven through purgatory. This is because we need purification before we can enter heaven. No soul can enter heaven without being perfect.

As for those who don't know the faith, they are not subject to God's Law specifically. Rather, they are subject to their own consciences. God doesn't damn anyone to hell, people damn themselves because they refuse God (or goodness, outside of the Church). We make the choice.

The Virgin Mary, when she appeared at Medjugorje, told the visionaries that the fewest people go straight to heaven, the next greater number go to Hell, but the greatest number of people go through purgatory before entering heaven.

Hope this helps.

*ALSO*

In the end, it is up to God who goes where, we can't judge who goes where on our own. The Church waits for lots of proof before declaring anyone a saint. We just have to remember that all the sins in the entire world ever committed are like a drop in the ocean of God's mercy. That being said, they are still very serious offenses to God, we just need to repent when we learn what is wrong.

just some things i need to clarify:

1.there are two types of christians: ones who try to be like christ, ones who try to be like christians. all the 'evil' chistians are the second

2.no one is condenmed to hell

3. God does not dislike, he does not hate, he only loves

4.a persons religion does not decide their fate it is their heart

5.when you die...
you go to purgetory
you stay there for however long untill your heart is pure and God grants you
permissin to enter heaven, regaurdless of your life, or religion
if you want you may enter hell never to return

6.you cannot be like God, but if you try reeeel hard, itl count

this is what i beleive

[added on to my other]

7.humans wrote the bible, God didnt

just some things i need to clarify:

1.there are two types of christians: ones who try to be like christ, ones who try to be like christians. all the 'evil' chistians are the second

2.no one is condenmed to hell

3. God does not dislike, he does not hate, he only loves

4.a persons religion does not decide their fate it is their heart

5.when you die...
you go to purgetory
you stay there for however long untill your heart is pure and God grants you
permissin to enter heaven, regaurdless of your life, or religion
if you want you may enter hell never to return

6.you cannot be like God, but if you try reeeel hard, itl count

this is what i beleive


And that sort of belief at least fits closer to what I find moral (I may not have faith but this would fit better with what I feel about morality)

Other. If you admit you make mistakes, you will be saved. No one can be perfect, and if we admit that to ourselves, we will be saved by God. But if you seriously think you are perfect, well, you're taking the elavator downtown.

Other. If you admit you make mistakes, you will be saved. No one can be perfect, and if we admit that to ourselves, we will be saved by God. But if you seriously think you are perfect, well, you're taking the elavator downtown.
Ive never met anyone that thought they were PERFECT

Some that thought they knew a lot and were loud and obnoxious about it … but not one that thought they were PERFECT

Ive never met anyone that thought they were PERFECT

Some that thought they knew a lot and were loud and obnoxious about it … but not one that thought they were PERFECT

I know quite a few.

biblical perspectives (this is Jesus talking):

John 3

Jesus Teaches Nicodemus
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

9"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.

10"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[d] 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.[e]

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

---------------------------------------------------

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

---------------------------------------------------


I was wondering where the Catholics came up with the idea of Purgatory... for the life of me i couldn't find it in Scripture.

I'm going to ask on the off-chance that I'll get a good reply here, when I haven't elsewhere...

Does this mean that a person can break every single commandment in the Bible, then say 'Oh, by the way, God, I'm sorry for everything and I think Jesus is the only way to Heaven' and they'll go to Heaven, while someone who spends their entire life acting in a way that, without their knowledge, fulfils every requirement of the Bible, but /doesn't/ say that, will go to Hell? And if so, how is that justified?

On a related note, does this mean that anyone who never even hears about Christianity was marked down by God to go to Hell at the time of their birth? And what sort of justification can we make for that?


First Question:

Yes, as long as you truely seek forgiveness. Even Hitler would be forgiven if he truely seeked it. Someone who doesn't accept the Holy Spirit in his heart will not be forgiven, even if they led a good life. It is justified in the fact that Jesus said that no one can get to the Father without Him.

Second Question:

This is a bit tougher. If that person never heard of Jesus, which is kind of hard to believe in this modern world, he will be judged on his works and his sin. He will go to Hell as he was not cleansed of his evil.

I was talking about the Canadian church thing that says they don't know what to think about heaven, hell, or what not. It sounds to me like they're afraid to say what the Bible teaches because it might hurt some feelings. If you don't believe the entire Bible is God-breathed, what's the point of reading any of it?

No one person can know if their neighbor is going to hell or not, but their actions and words seem to lead towards that direction. The only way a person can be sure of eternal life is to accept Jesus as their Savior and believe that He died for our sins. That's what we believe. Whether or not you choose to believe it is up to you. All we can do is tell you and pray for you to believe.


Bravo, nice post my brother!!

First Question:

Yes, as long as you truely seek forgiveness. Even Hitler would be forgiven if he truely seeked it. Someone who doesn't accept the Holy Spirit in his heart will not be forgiven, even if they led a good life. It is justified in the fact that Jesus said that no one can get to the Father without Him.

Second Question:

This is a bit tougher. If that person never heard of Jesus, which is kind of hard to believe in this modern world, he will be judged on his works and his sin. He will go to Hell as he was not cleansed of his evil.
How about those that cant believe … like me I simply can not take the leap of faith

It is something in me I can not change

If god is not loving enough to accept that I can not be forced into a religion then too bad

I do believe that if a person never hears, they still may go to Hell. You may be correct, in that God does manifest Himself to people out of the blue. It's on my hands and every other Christian's hands to get the message to these people that haven't heard. If not, then we aren't doing our job.

Exactly. We must spread the Good News, even if we are persecuted for it. According to the Bible all Christians will be persecuted at one point, and this will help us build the awesome character that will help us be more like Him. :)

Exactly. We must spread the Good News, even if we are persecuted for it. According to the Bible all Christians will be persecuted at one point, and this will help us build the awesome character that will help us be more like Him. :)
What is it about this faith and the persecution complex? I see it all the time … it seems like there is some sort of built in need to be the “underdog” even when you are the majority … a bloated behemoth of a religion there still seems to need to feel like the quirky fighting under dog

Since we don't know for sure who will be saved, we have to respect everybody and treat them like they're all going to Heaven. We don't have a soul reader, we don't know who will repent. That's why I try to see a true potential and some goodness even in the worse people.


Great post. We do not know who is saved and who is not. We are to love all like we love ourselves. Love thy neighbor as you would love yourself.

What is it about this faith and the persecution complex? I see it all the time … it seems like there is some sort of built in need to be the “underdog” even when you are the majority … a bloated behemoth of a religion there still seems to need to feel like the quirky fighting under dog

It is written in the Bible so that is why we speak of it. Persecution does not always mean something like what happened to the Jews. When someone mocks your faith, that infact is a form of persecution.

It is written in the Bible so that is why we speak of it. Persecution does not always mean something like what happened to the Jews. When someone mocks your faith, that infact is a form of persecution.
… which Christians do to other faiths about the same statistical average as all people

They just don’t think they are persecuting others because that seems reserved for them

Seconded. There are some truly good and honest Conservative Christians. Unfortunately, for the large part, most of them follow blindly the person in front of them, and don't know a lick about what they speak, only what the people in the front want tehm to think. Tis sad.

Oh, and this works on all levels. Most people of any particular group are hypocrites unto themselves. There are a very few that are good and honest, but the most just don't get it, to be frank.


I consider myself a centrist Christian, as I don't get involved in that mess known as politics. I believe that only Jesus can bring us salvation, that we must be charitable to our brothers, that we must help those in need, that we must help teach those whom are lost, and that we must love sinners (gays included) but hate what they do.

As a Christian you really can't be left or right, you must be neutral. Sure we speak out against what we see as morally wrong, but we don't pressure people to convert to our ideas. We may tell them the Good News of the world tomorrow, and if they open their hearts and minds, all the better. If they don't, we will be sorry for them and STILL love them as our brothers. If that makes me intollerant then so be it.

I was just reading the bible, and it seems like these days EVERYONE is going to hell because no one lives up to the standards set forth by Jesus and his diciples.

Well all of us mortal humans deserve nothing but eternal damnation for the miserable sins WE ALL commit. I think humanity deserves nothing but doom. Thank Him that there is a way to find light in all of the darkness.

Communists.

but what if you believe the wrong things? Is it enough to believe that Jesus was the Son of God and Savior of Mankind? Or must you do as he teaches and make many sacrifices?

Yes, but must also live your life in a righteous way. Faith without works is useless.

Did you hear the one about the Buddhist who went to heaven, they said oh no not this again.

I for one am not a christian and I won't be christian ever again after all that I have seen. I believe that what you do is your business, but in all reality there is no heaven or hell cuz you are living on the last planet you will ever know :headbang:

I dont beleive in heaven, hell, any afterlife, or any kind of mystical energy/reincarnation stuff.... But if there is a Heaven and Hell i really would rather go to the latter... The eternal torment there would be preferable to the eternal torment of being surrounded by a bunch of intolerant, cocky, self-righteous, uncompassionate, crazed lunatics who will (according to themselves) occupy Heaven.


I don't think you quite understand what exactly Heaven is. Anyone who would be as you describe would not be in heaven unless they prayed for forgiveness. Those things you described are all sin and in Heaven there can be no sin whatsoever. Heaven is absolute joy, happiness, and above all total LOVE.

How about those that cant believe … like me I simply can not take the leap of faith

It is something in me I can not change

If god is not loving enough to accept that I can not be forced into a religion then too bad

He does not force anyone to believe in Him. You have the freedom to choose your path.

BTW yes you can change, and my brother, I pray one day you could see the light. Peace be with you. :)

If one wants to be truly enlightened, they should read "Good Omens" by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman.

He does not force anyone to believe in Him. You have the freedom to choose your path.

BTW yes you can change, and my brother, I pray one day you could see the light. Peace be with you. :)
I tried but a combination of my feelings and my past prohibit me from participating in Christianity

… which Christians do to other faiths about the same statistical average as all people

They just don’t think they are persecuting others because that seems reserved for them


Christians who follow the Good News do not do this to other beliefs. We are not Him so how can we possible judge anothers soul. I pray that I never judge anothers heart.

The United Church of Canada, even though they are devout Christians, have decided to adopt a vision of Hell and Heaven that could be considered as quasi-agnostic. They have also rejected the debates about predestination, in the same way.

The way I understand it:

We don't know about these things (predestination, afterlife, heaven, hell). Words are written in the Bible -- human words, mere words. What do we know? What do we understand of these things that we can't touch or feel? It's all about faith in a compassionate God.

We hope, we have faith in God, and that's the real point. Whether or not Heaven exists, or if it's a combination of Heaven+Hell, or if there's a corridor called "purgatory" on the way... it's all irrelevant. If we pretend to understand it, then we have it wrong -- we're not being humble. We'll be welcomed in the arms of God, into something that defies human comprehension.

The only thing that matters is to be a good person while you live. What happens afterward won't be of any importance to you right now, if you're being good. Because trying to be a truly good person, with the help of faith and with your understanding of the world -- that's the purpose of life, in a Christian way.

So it would be hypocrite to be good just because you think about Heaven and Hell. It wouldn't be true to yourself and to God. What's the value of compassion and charity, if it's calculated and given in the hope of a reward?

So...
Don't judge others, don't wish them sadness, failure or tragedy.
Be generous and compassionate, without calculating, and truly.
Keep a warm place for God in your life.
Throw away your charity counter.
The rest won't matter. ;)

just curious... is the Church of Canada a Bible-preaching church? Because Jesus was fairly clear about the requirements for getting into heaven.

If one wants to be truly enlightened, they should read "Good Omens" by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman.

May I ask what that book is about, as I love to read ANYTHING? I just got done reading some Twain (again lol) and need some fresh reading material. I enjoy reading all sorts of things (even material that some may judge to be unChristian).

I tried but a combination of my feelings and my past prohibit me from participating in Christianity


I am truely sorry for you friend. Nothing I could say would give you relief for your pain. I hope you can heal in the future. Peace. :)

First Question:

Yes, as long as you truely seek forgiveness. Even Hitler would be forgiven if he truely seeked it. Someone who doesn't accept the Holy Spirit in his heart will not be forgiven, even if they led a good life. It is justified in the fact that Jesus said that no one can get to the Father without Him.

Second Question:

This is a bit tougher. If that person never heard of Jesus, which is kind of hard to believe in this modern world, he will be judged on his works and his sin. He will go to Hell as he was not cleansed of his evil.

yeah... Jesus' blood is powerful enough to cover any sin done by any person... whether it's just a 7-year-old who did nothing more than be born with original sin, or Hitler and Stalin, who committed countless atrocities.

If you repent and truly believe, before you die, you will be saved. That is Jesus' promise. And it goes for everyone alive today.

I am truely sorry for you friend. Nothing I could say would give you relief for your pain. I hope you can heal in the future. Peace. :)
Probably not … but I wont say defiantly not

If anyone actually cares about the original post (and to second some of the voices in this thread), I think it's wise to make the following point: (I think the poll questions weren't terribly good, on the record)

It's not "Christian" or "non-Christian" that's a dividing line for who passes the pearly gates, and who merely smacks into 'em, and falls back.

I know several people who profess to be Christian, go to church weekly, blah blah blah - and yet reject the core Christian belief - that Jesus is the way to heaven.

Likewise, I'm quite good friends with at least TWO people who are outwardly NOT "Christian" - don't do "the church thing" (they feel uncomfortable there), etc - and yet DO trust Jesus alone for their salvation.

That is, indeed, the discriminating factor, and it's a very binary choice - yes or no, on or off, heaven or elsewhere (according to the Christian faith).
"Being Christian" is merely what can OUTWARDLY result from the inward choice, and it can take PLENTY of different forms.

If anyone actually cares about the original post (and to second some of the voices in this thread), I think it's wise to make the following point: (I think the poll questions weren't terribly good, on the record)

It's not "Christian" or "non-Christian" that's a dividing line for who passes the pearly gates, and who merely smacks into 'em, and falls back.

I know several people who profess to be Christian, go to church weekly, blah blah blah - and yet reject the core Christian belief - that Jesus is the way to heaven.

Likewise, I'm quite good friends with at least TWO people who are outwardly NOT "Christian" - don't do "the church thing" (they feel uncomfortable there), etc - and yet DO trust Jesus alone for their salvation.

That is, indeed, the discriminating factor, and it's a very binary choice - yes or no, on or off, heaven or elsewhere (according to the Christian faith).
"Being Christian" is merely what can OUTWARDLY result from the inward choice, and it can take PLENTY of different forms.

Good points. You don't even have to call yourself "Christian" to be one. Heck, I'd feel awkward in certain "Christian" churches as well. If they were my only options of worship, I'd hightail it up to the mountains and pray and try to live my life like the Bible says.

just curious... is the Church of Canada a Bible-preaching church?
Yep.
http://www.united-church.ca/
3 million members (10% of all Canadians)

Because Jesus was fairly clear about the requirements for getting into heaven.
That's your opinion on the matter.
Jesus liked to dodge the questions. And let his apostles THINK.
He provided guidelines, not absolute rules.
The only TWO rules are: love your God, love your neighbor

yeah... Jesus' blood is powerful enough to cover any sin done by any person... whether it's just a 7-year-old who did nothing more than be born with original sin, or Hitler and Stalin, who committed countless atrocities.

If you repent and truly believe, before you die, you will be saved. That is Jesus' promise. And it goes for everyone alive today.

You can get Hitler and stalin in Heaven if only they believe in Jesus, but Ghandi would go to Hell if he doesn't?
And Heaven is nothing but love, yet personae as Hitler and Stalin have a possibility to get in there?
That's not really a fair, I'd say. And what of Purgatory and the Limbo for, then?

Yep.
http://www.united-church.ca/
3 million members (10% of all Canadians)


That's your opinion on the matter.
Jesus liked to dodge the questions. And let his apostles THINK.
He provided guidelines, not absolute rules.
The only TWO rules are: love your God, love your neighbor
“Their not really rules per-se, more like guidelines”

...realizing that Jesus is God and that He alone can save...

it's all about belief in Him... according to Him.

as for how we should live, yes, the two greatest commandments are to love each other as ourselves (hehe) and to love God with all heart, soul, and strength.

Good points. You don't even have to call yourself "Christian" to be one. Heck, I'd feel awkward in certain "Christian" churches as well. If they were my only options of worship, I'd hightail it up to the mountains and pray and try to live my life like the Bible says.

Indeed. I'd have to say I know of several Churches who are quite contradictory to the Bible they profess to teach.
I would rather not be affiliated with THEM in any way, shape or form.

In the end, when it comes down to handing out the "get into Heaven free" passes, God could care less what denomination you subscribed to, wether you're Jewish or not, or what you did with your life (for good or for evil) - all back to the binary choice, you know.

Not that you shouldn't live a good life. :p Quite to the contrary. But NOT living a good life doesn't "condemn" you outright. Conversively, living a GOOD life doesn't "entitle" you to a spot in Heaven.

I'm probably just reiterating points that have been made earlier, but meh.
Doesn't HURT anything, does it?

I'd like to share with you part of a journal I wrote for my time in a World Religions class.

In today’s Christian churches, you can choose between 250 denominations. People are actually encouraged to search for the religion that ‘speaks to them’. There is generally a difference between each person that leads to different beliefs, whether it is minor or not. Almost everyday, someone is leaving one denomination to join the other. Would it not make sense to have one big religion called Christianity or Judaism so that we could all go and pray together, without having to argue and fight? It would make more sense to give each person the freedom to believe what they want, instead of having only 250 choices or you can’t be Christian. Do we need to really create a thousand churches before we realize that there won’t be any point to church anymore? Christianity is already loosing people, while the other religions with considerably lower number of denominations are gaining people. If we had just one Christian church then perhaps we could start believing and stop arguing.

In reality, there aren’t 250 right ways. There is one. In reality, there is only one right answer to the way things work. Back when the Bible was written, it said slavery was right. That was accepted as God’s word. If God came down here today and told us slavery was right, we would most likely spit in his face. We know now that slavery is wrong, and so in turn, we wouldn’t follow a God that said such cruel and heartless things. I think then, we can conclude, that we are following man made morals. Whether they be right or wrong, or whether there is really right or wrong, they have to be man made. We choose what our God says and does. If this is not so, then people wouldn’t agree with what God said 100% of the time. And they don’t, which is why, there is splitting.

In the way of today, churches have broken up into smaller and smaller division, but still nowhere near the single-man church they need to be. Because of this, many people choose atheism, which is a shame, because God can exist without all these man made laws.

By the way, I do believe in the whole Nicene Creed, which should be a good, condensed explanation of our Christian beliefs.
However, I do NOT believe that the Bible is perfect, since it was written wayyyy after Jesus and the Apostles lived, by ordinary men (who aren't perfect, even with God's help, since they suffered from the original sin).
Maybe that's my slight inclination towards agnosticism, but I think we have to read the Bible and search the truth that lies behind the words. Words that were badly recopied across the centuries, un-translatable words that were translated indeed.
What are we? Bible worshippers? Sticking to a book, an object, a paper idol?
Or worshippers of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit?

The scariest description of Hell I've seen was an old milk commercial.. a gray room, unlimited chocolate chip cookies, and nothing but empty cartons of milk in the fridge.

I sure hope He's up there and He cares about me. :(

The dictionary defines "faith" as belief without edvidence. It defines "stupidity" as unreasoned thinking. Is belief without evidence a form of unreasoned thinking?

i believe that people who live badly can still go to heaven if they repent and truthfully regret what they have done. it is not for me to judge who goes to heaven, God does and i don't believe that He would send people to hell if they followed a different religion even if they lived their lived their lives as good people. i personally, don't even believe that people go to hell. i believe that most people go to purgatory and they stay their and think upon their past decision until they truly understand and ask for forgiveness and then they may be allowed into heaven.

The true answer:
The Bible only mentions hell about two(2) times, not mentioning who (humanwise) goes there. During the reformation, people were starting to convert into protestantism (starting with Lutheranism), so to try to get them to convert back, they [Roman Catholic Church] blew hell out of perportion(sp?), so its now based on Dante's inferno and now we are stuck with the now hell.

As for who goes there, no one (shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!), and hell is escapable, but it will set everyone free, and can only be done one (1) time.

The dictionary defines "faith" as belief without edvidence. It defines "stupidity" as unreasoned thinking. Is belief without evidence a form of unreasoned thinking?
Lol possibly lol :p

The dictionary defines "faith" as belief without edvidence. It defines "stupidity" as unreasoned thinking. Is belief without evidence a form of unreasoned thinking?

NIEN.

The dictionary defines "faith" as belief without edvidence. It defines "stupidity" as unreasoned thinking. Is belief without evidence a form of unreasoned thinking?
What's so bad about Faith?
Explorers and scientists have faith in their work. Otherwise they wouldn't achieve anything.
Explorer Schliemann had faith that he would find the site of ancient Troy. He searched for years, and found it. People thought he was crazy.
Richard Burton had faith in his quest of the sources of the Nile.
Watson and Crick had faith that the chromosones would have an elegant shape, even though some people thought they were just lumps of amine acids.
So yes, if faith is stupid, so is science, research exploration, love, religion, and human life.

What's so bad about Faith?
Explorers and scientists have faith in their work. Otherwise they wouldn't achieve anything.
Explorer Schliemann had faith that he would find the site of ancient Troy. He searched for years, and found it. People thought he was crazy.
Richard Burton had faith in his quest of the sources of the Nile.
Watson and Crick had faith that the chromosones would have an elegant shape, even though some people thought they were just lumps of amine acids.
So yes, if faith is stupid, so is science, research exploration, love, religion, and human life.

Yet all of science and exploration rests ultimatly on logic and evidence. Faith and belief relies on ancient books of dubious origin and word-of-mouth.

I know which one I'd rather have.

One last word about the "perfection of the Book".

People don't seem to realize how much our modern Bibles are different to the original ones written in Hebrew, Aramean, Greek and Latin.
Some words are just impossible to translate correctly.

One example.

"Love thy neighbor"

In the Aramean and Hebrew texts (which are as close to the original as possibly be), they use a word that doesn't exist in our European languages, and which means "the next person (stranger) you'll meet"

So it really means:

"Love any stranger you'll meet"

In the French-language Bibles, they have coined a term for that, since there was no correct word in French: "prochain" ("next")

"Aime ton prochain" / "Love the next-person-you-encounter"

But how many among ourselved have taken literally "neighbor", and were fooled by the raw meaning of the word? And how many French-speaking persons have a hard time understanding the concept of "prochain".

Sadly, the Bible was written by a group of people living in a different culture, climate, time period... and we should take great care in the way we interpret the words we read. Otherwise, we worship the words, and not the message.

What's so bad about Faith?
Explorers and scientists have faith in their work. Otherwise they wouldn't achieve anything.
Explorer Schliemann had faith that he would find the site of ancient Troy. He searched for years, and found it. People thought he was crazy.
Richard Burton had faith in his quest of the sources of the Nile.
Watson and Crick had faith that the chromosones would have an elegant shape, even though some people thought they were just lumps of amine acids.
So yes, if faith is stupid, so is science, research exploration, love, religion, and human life.
He/she was working on just dictionary definitions he did not say faith was bad

Yet all of science and exploration rests ultimatly on logic and evidence. Faith and belief relies on ancient books of dubious origin and word-of-mouth.

Yes and no. Burton's explorations resulted in the discovery of a lake. There is no real science involved in there, except the fact that they wanted to know just where the Nile river started.
A religious person's spiritual exploration can result in enlightment, making this person a better person. It is just like finding the great lake in which the river feeds.

Yes and no. Burton's explorations resulted in the discovery of a lake. There is no real science involved in there, except the fact that they wanted to know just where the Nile river started.
A religious person's spiritual exploration can result in enlightment, making this person a better person. It is just like finding the great lake in which the river feeds.
Yes but anyone can trek up the nile and find that lake. Anyone who has the nessecary raw materials can perform any scientific experiment and get the same result as everyone else.
My spiritual exploration resulted in atheism and an intense dislike of all organised religion, yours resulted in something completely different. That's quite fundamentally different, because the result can never be reproduced.

My spiritual exploration resulted in atheism and an intense dislike of all organised religion, yours resulted in something completely different. That's quite fundamentally different, because the result can never be reproduced.
We're talking about "faith in science" compared to "faith in spirituality", we're not talking about "religion versus science". That's a totally different debate, isn't it?

ACTUALLY!

Who's damned is God's choice. Stop trying to decide for Him.

This is the wisest, most correct post on this thread.

Speculatory damnation is a fishing trip put on to appease us pathetic human beings.

Pope Eugene IV,

(Bull Cantate Domino, 1441)
"The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire 'which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her... No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

Pope John Paul II,

"Dear brothers and sisters, the theme of Our general audience during this great Jubilee year, has been the glory of the Trinity, and today we ask what we must do to ensure that the glory of the Trinity shines forth more fully in the world. In essence we are called to be converted and to believe in the Gospel. We are to accept the kingdom of God in our hearts, and to bear witness to it by word and deed. The kingdom indicates the loving presence and activity of God in the world and should be a source of serenity and confidence to our lives. The Gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the beatitudes: the poor in spirit; the pure in heart; those who will lovingly [endure] the sufferings of life; will enter God's kingdom. All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and His Church, contribute under the influence of grace, to the building of this kingdom. In the Lord's prayer we say 'Thy kingdom come'. May this be the hope that sustains us and inspires our Christian life and world."


We confess with the Apostle Paul "that there is salvation in no other name" (Acts 4:12). The "Dominus Iesus" declaration, in the wake of Vatican II, shows that with this the salvation of non-Christians is not denied, but explains its ultimate source in Christ, in whom God and man are united. God gives light to all in a way appropriate to their interior and environmental situation, granting them saving grace through ways known to him (see "Dominus Iesus," VI, 20-21). The document clarifies the essential Christian elements, which do not obstruct the dialogue, but show its basis, because a dialogue without foundations would be destined to degenerate into empty verbosity.

Normally, “it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour (cf. Ad gentes, nn. 3, 9, 11)” (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue – Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples)

Pope Eugene IV,
[...]
Pope John Paul II,
[...]

Popes aren't leaders of all Christianity, but only of the Catholic doctrine.
The reformed churches have different views on the subject.


The only modern pope that rocked was John XXIII, which died way too early (and/or was murdered, we'll never know).

!!!11!!!!! OMG CONSPRACY TEHORY OMG OMG !111!!!!!

We're talking about "faith in science" compared to "faith in spirituality", we're not talking about "religion versus science". That's a totally different debate, isn't it?
It is, yes.
But science doesn't demand faith, because science relies upon evidence.
Spirituality does not nessecarily demand faith, because you can have spiritual belief based upon the interpretation of evidence.
Religion demands faith, because religion is based upon authority which may or may not have been based upon evidence.

I have no problem with faith or people who have faith. Believe in what you want, but if you want to tell people be prepared to argue about it. Debate is healthy, as long as it doesn't degenerate into flames and trolling.

That all said, I don't believe that any two people believe exactly the same thing. Which is one of the reasons for my dislike of organised religion.

NIV because it's I got it for a Christmas present, but I have no real preference.

By NIV I take it u mean New International Version

Corinthians 10:20
No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.

Exodus 22:20
Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed.

Both taken from http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php

My two favourites from your version. Can't you just feel they hate and violence vibes flowing off these pair. Does anyone else have a problem with the first one, the destruction of those who practice every other religon well I guess you could call that evil no?

its a shame your version differs so much from the

Exodus 22:18
King James Version: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
The Promise: Contemporary English Version: "Death is the punishment for Witchcraft."
Revised English Bible: "You must not allow a witch to live."

New International Version: ""Do not allow a sorceress to live."

it just isn't as hatefull .... But these are only some of the reasons christianity is inherently evil.

Popes aren't leaders of all Christianity, but only of the Catholic doctrine.
The reformed churches have different views on the subject.



Pope Eugene was one out of two major Christian leaders in the time, and he was the more important, and in that time he was speaking for all Christians west of Greece, which was the majority.

Pope John Paul II was also the leader of the plurality if not majority of Christians.

But science doesn't demand faith, because science relies upon evidence.
You have an idealized view of science.
Faith is what make men step in a dark room. Science occurs in the next step, when they search for the switch.

You have an idealized view of science.
Faith is what make men step in a dark room. Science occurs in the next step, when they search for the switch.
Disagree.
Curiosity is what makes people look, science and religion are both like spectacles.

By NIV I take it u mean New International Version

Corinthians 10:20
No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.

Exodus 22:20
Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed.

Both taken from http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php

My two favourites from your version. Can't you just feel they hate and violence vibes flowing off these pair. Does anyone else have a problem with the first one, the destruction of those who practice every other religon well I guess you could call that evil no?

its a shame your version differs so much from the

Exodus 22:18
King James Version: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
The Promise: Contemporary English Version: "Death is the punishment for Witchcraft."
Revised English Bible: "You must not allow a witch to live."

New International Version: ""Do not allow a sorceress to live."

it just isn't as hatefull .... But these are only some of the reasons christianity is inherently evil.



Those who willingly violate the will of God are worthy of nothing less than death. Sin necessitates damnation. Yet Christ died so that we might escape our eternal torment. God is not evil, those who sin are evil.

Curiosity is what makes people look, science and religion are both like spectacles.
That's an interesting point of view. It might have much more depth than we think. Man has a fascination in his world, its intricate beauty.

Those who willingly violate the will of God are worthy of nothing less than death.
So hmmm... since you're in direct contact with God, can you explain us His will?

"I am the way, the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except through me."

"For God so loved the world that HE gaves His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

"He came that we might have life, and have it abundantly."

It's pretty obvious, to anyone who is a Christian, that if you believe in God, and that Jesus died for your sins, and you accept that forgiveness, you go to heaven. All you have to do is ask, and you are accepted into eternal life.

Having used to go to church and listening more than one with a short attention span usually does it seems God lets every one off unless somebody does something reeeeeaaaaallllly bad. Like blow up the Universe, he'd be pissed off then :D

That's an interesting point of view. It might have much more depth than we think. Man has a fascination in his world, its intricate beauty.
Exactly. The rest is just a matter for individual point of view.

As for damnation, as long as you can live your life as happily and harmlessly as possible I think it's hard to go wrong, no matter what you believe.

yes that is in the bible, but remember, the bible was written by human beings. i'm not aethiest, i do believe in god and damnnation, but i keep an open mind.

If you are a just God, You will smite it!
(*moves on*)(*lighting strikes*)(*thunder*)(*looks back:*) :D!

By NIV I take it u mean New International Version

Corinthians 10:20
No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.

Exodus 22:20
Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed.

Both taken from http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php

My two favourites from your version. Can't you just feel they hate and violence vibes flowing off these pair. Does anyone else have a problem with the first one, the destruction of those who practice every other religon well I guess you could call that evil no?

its a shame your version differs so much from the

Exodus 22:18
King James Version: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
The Promise: Contemporary English Version: "Death is the punishment for Witchcraft."
Revised English Bible: "You must not allow a witch to live."

New International Version: ""Do not allow a sorceress to live."

it just isn't as hatefull .... But these are only some of the reasons christianity is inherently evil.


Those who willingly violate the will of God are worthy of nothing less than death. Sin necessitates damnation. Yet Christ died so that we might escape our eternal torment. God is not evil, those who sin are evil.

Well while your out there killin Muslims Buddaist and everyone else that don't agree with you every stop and think what if yer wrong ? But hitler didn't think he was evil either!

I don't think you quite understand what exactly Heaven is. Anyone who would be as you describe would not be in heaven unless they prayed for forgiveness. Those things you described are all sin and in Heaven there can be no sin whatsoever. Heaven is absolute joy, happiness, and above all total LOVE.

I dont quite think you're getting the point i tried to make...... I physically can't believe in the bible or jesus as the son of god and our saviour. I find it impossible to believe in God. If you do not repent through the figurehead of a single religion that many people never hear of, that many people simply cant accept, and many people are told of through messages of guilt and intolerance, apparently you go straight to hell. If God is that unforgiving and unloving and lacking understanding of the humans he supposedly created then i think YOU would be the one not understanding God or heaven. If heaven is as you describe then how do the bigots who tell me i'm going to hell and i'm an affront to God and generally abuse non-believers deserve to get in because they ask for forgiveness when someone such as the dalai lama who has nobel peace prizes, a world of tolerance (over and above the aforementioned bigots), and so much charity work behind him will go straight to hell because he was born into a society that doesnt know christ... and in a situation and leading a life that would make it psychologically unreasonable and unrealistic for him to convert to YOUR way of belief?

Yet all these traits that i mentioned are the exact traits displayed by all the people preaching torment in hellfire to anyone not living in exactly the manner they expect. Therefore by their definition of who gets into heaven, and by my perspective of what those people are like then Heaven certainly would be a place full of arrogant intolerant psychopaths.