NationStates Jolt Archive


Finally, a decent decision from the scotus

Mt-Tau
28-06-2005, 02:55
Click (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050628/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_ten_commandments;_ylt=Ao_tZSgS5eBzXNU6Y1fChUOs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--)

WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court ruled Monday that displaying the Ten Commandments on government property is constitutionally permissible in some cases but not in others. A pair of 5-4 decisions left future disputes on the contentious church-state issue to be settled case-by-case.
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"The court has found no single mechanical formula that can accurately draw the constitutional line in every case," wrote Justice Stephen G. Breyer.

Breyer was the only justice to vote with the majority in both cases: One that struck down Ten Commandments displays inside two Kentucky courthouses and a second that allowed a 6-foot granite monument to remain on the grounds of the Texas Capitol.

The court said the key to whether a display is constitutional hinges on whether there is a religious purpose behind it. But the justices acknowledged that question would often be controversial.

"The divisiveness of religion in current public life is inescapable," wrote Justice David H. Souter.

He said it was important to understand the Constitution's Establishment Clause, which requires the government to stay neutral on religious belief. Questions of such belief, he said are "reserved for the conscience of the individual."

In both cases, Breyer voted with the majority. In the Kentucky case barring the courthouse displays, that left him with the court's more liberal bloc where he normally votes. In the Texas case, he wound up making a majority with the more conservative justices.

Justice
Sandra Day O'Connor, often a swing vote, joined the liberals in both decisions.

The rulings mean thousands of Ten Commandments displays around the nation will be validated if their primary purpose is to honor the nation's legal, rather than religious, traditions. Location also will be considered, with wide open lots more acceptable than schoolhouses filled with young students.

"It means we'll litigate cases one at a time for decades," said Douglas Laycock, a church-state expert at the University of Texas law school, noting the decisions provide little guidance beyond the specific facts of the cases. "The next case may depend on who the next justice is, unfortunately," he said.

In sharply worded opinions, Justice
Antonin Scalia said a "dictatorship of a shifting Supreme Court majority" was denying the Ten Commandments' religious meaning. Religion is part of America's traditions, from a president's invocation of "God bless America" in speeches to the national motto "In God we trust."

"Nothing stands behind the court's assertion that governmental affirmation of the society's belief in God is unconstitutional except the court's own say-so," Scalia wrote.

The justices voting on the prevailing side in the Kentucky case left themselves legal wiggle room, saying that some displays inside courthouses — like their own courtroom frieze — would be permissible if they were portrayed neutrally in order to honor the nation's legal history.

The Supreme Court's frieze depicts Moses as well as 17 other figures including Hammurabi, Confucius, Napoleon and Chief Justice John Marshall. Moses' tablets do not have any writing.

The monument on the grounds of the Texas Capitol — one of 17 historical displays on the 22-acre lot — was determined to be a legitimate tribute to the nation's legal and religious history.

Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist argued that the Texas monument with the words 'I AM the LORD thy God'" was a permissible acknowledgment of religion's place in society.

Breyer, who provided the fifth vote in the holding, did not join Rehnquist's opinion. As a result, his separate concurrence, concluding that the Texas display was predominantly nonreligious and thus constitutional because it sat in a vast park, was the controlling viewpoint.

The rulings were the court's first major statement on the Ten Commandments since 1980, when the justices barred display in public schools.

"This is a mixed verdict, but on balance it's a win for separation of religion and government," said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State. "The justices wisely refused to jettison long-standing church-state safeguards. We're thankful for that."

On the other side, Jay Sekulow, chief counsel of the American Center for Law and Justice, said: "It is very encouraging that the Supreme Court understands the historical and legal significance of displaying the Ten Commandments. Unfortunately, the high court's decision in the Kentucky case is likely to create more questions."

In Kentucky, two counties originally hung the copies of the Ten Commandments in their courthouses. After the ACLU filed suit, the counties modified their displays to add other documents demonstrating "America's Christian heritage," including the national motto of "In God We Trust" and a version of the Congressional Record declaring 1983 the "Year of the Bible."

When a federal court ruled those displays had the effect of endorsing religion, the counties erected a third Ten Commandments display with surrounding documents such as the Bill of Rights and Star-Spangled Banner to highlight their role in "our system of law and government."

The Cincinnati-based 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeal subsequently struck down the third display as a "sham" for the religious intent behind it.

Meanwhile in Texas, the Fraternal Order of Eagles donated the exhibit to the state in 1961, and it was installed about 75 feet from the Capitol in Austin. The group gave thousands of similar monuments to American towns during the 1950s and '60s.

Thomas Van Orden, a former lawyer who is now homeless, challenged the display in 2002. He lost twice in the lower courts in holdings the Supreme Court affirmed Monday.

Dissenting in the Texas case, Justice
John Paul Stevens argued the display was an improper government endorsement of religion.

"If a state may endorse a particular deity's command to 'have no other gods before me,' it is difficult to conceive of any textual display that would run afoul of the Establishment Clause," he said.




This is by far one of the fairer decisions I have seen out of them.
Super-power
28-06-2005, 02:59
Meh, I'm still pissed over Keno v. New London
NERVUN
28-06-2005, 03:24
Hoo boy, this one is going to keep the laywers occupied for years. How DO you figure out if the intent is religious or not unless statements are made to that effect?
[NS]Ihatevacations
28-06-2005, 03:29
Hoo boy, this one is going to keep the laywers occupied for years. How DO you figure out if the intent is religious or not unless statements are made to that effect?
Yeah, I was under the distinct impression that was the actual problem in the first place. The SCOTUS didn't really solve anything with this decision unless they set up some test
Eco-Fascism
28-06-2005, 04:59
Meh, I'm still pissed over Keno v. New London

Everyone ought to be....The fifth amendment has just been completely turned around.
CSW
28-06-2005, 05:00
Meh, I'm still pissed over Keno v. New London
Yeah, Keno is such a losing proposition that it should be declared usury.
Bitchkitten
28-06-2005, 05:06
Dissenting in the Texas case, Justice
John Paul Stevens argued the display was an improper government endorsement of religion.

"If a state may endorse a particular deity's command to 'have no other gods before me,' it is difficult to conceive of any textual display that would run afoul of the Establishment Clause," he said.

What he said.
Texpunditistan
28-06-2005, 05:08
Hoo boy, this one is going to keep the laywers occupied for years. How DO you figure out if the intent is religious or not unless statements are made to that effect?
The ACLU won't care... they'll just sue and sue and sue and waste money and the Supreme Court will end up deciding a bunch of these cases.
Haloman
28-06-2005, 05:09
I've yet to see the part on any of these monuments where it says "you must believe in all these things", so, I think the decision was a pretty fair one.
[NS]Ihatevacations
28-06-2005, 05:12
I've yet to see the part on any of these monuments where it says "you must believe in all these things", so, I think the decision was a pretty fair one.
Commandment 1: I, the Lord, am your God, you shall have no other gods before Me

that really sounds like an open endorsement for all religions
CSW
28-06-2005, 05:15
The ACLU won't care... they'll just sue and sue and sue and waste money and the Supreme Court will end up deciding a bunch of these cases.
Musta missed the Kentucky case (you know, the one the ACLU actually sued in), the court ruled against the ten commandments in that one.
Haloman
28-06-2005, 05:17
Ihatevacations']Commandment 1: I, the Lord, am your God, you shall have no other gods before Me

that really sounds like an open endorsement for all religions

Point? If another monument stating beliefs of another religion were erected, it would be allowed to stand, under this decision.

There's nowhere on the monument that says "this is what we base our political ideals on, so you must believe it as well".

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof Banning such a monument would be prohibiting the free excercise of religion.
CSW
28-06-2005, 05:19
Point? If another monument stating beliefs of another religion were erected, it would be allowed to stand, under this decision.

There's nowhere on the monument that says "this is what we base our political ideals on, so you must believe it as well".

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof Banning such a monument would be prohibiting the free excercise of religion.
Yep. Only putting one up from one religion (eg, it doesn't have a clear, secular purpose) would be illegal.
NERVUN
28-06-2005, 05:32
The ACLU won't care... they'll just sue and sue and sue and waste money and the Supreme Court will end up deciding a bunch of these cases.
Um... in reading the article, that was the Court's intent, this will be a case by case basis as they could not find a good litmus test for this one.
Gauthier
28-06-2005, 05:46
Everyone ought to be....The fifth amendment has just been completely turned around.

Remember Dred Scott?

The Supreme Court has been long overdue a Penis in the Rectume fuckup I suppose.
[NS]Ihatevacations
28-06-2005, 05:55
Point? If another monument stating beliefs of another religion were erected, it would be allowed to stand, under this decision.

Point was you asked where it said "you must believe all these things", commandment one. Commandment one states the Judeo-Christian God is the only one and no other gods cannot exist, and since God supposedly gave the 10 commandments to the people that means they must be followed and believed
Seangolia
28-06-2005, 06:09
The ACLU won't care... they'll just sue and sue and sue and waste money and the Supreme Court will end up deciding a bunch of these cases.

Well, if the ACLU gets to out of control with the sueing, the Supreme Court could just not hear the cases. The Court has the power to hear any case it wants, and is not forced to hear a particular case. Consider this: Of the 5000 or 6000 cases which are presented to the SC each year, only about 100 are heard each year(Less these days, the stamina of the Justices is running out, they are getting old after all).

It's a good system. It works marvelously.

As for this case, I find this an extremely moderate stance, and quite reasonable. It does not say they will permit all monuments with religious reference, just the ones with non-religious intent.
CSW
28-06-2005, 06:15
Well, if the ACLU gets to out of control with the sueing, the Supreme Court could just not hear the cases. The Court has the power to hear any case it wants, and is not forced to hear a particular case. Consider this: Of the 5000 or 6000 cases which are presented to the SC each year, only about 100 are heard each year(Less these days, the stamina of the Justices is running out, they are getting old after all).

It's a good system. It works marvelously.

As for this case, I find this an extremely moderate stance, and quite reasonable. It does not say they will permit all monuments with religious reference, just the ones with non-religious intent.
80 cases.