NationStates Jolt Archive

I attended a funeral last week, and it was the first time I have been in a church in over 15 years. The ceremony was okay for a while, but once it started pulling in bible quotes and so on, it lost me. Anyway. The church was beautiful...big open space, gorgeous wooden archways and ceiling etc. As I sat there and looked around, I realised that I would actually enjoy very much coming to a place like this once a week to be with community members, thinking about life from a different perspective for a few hours. But I simply could not stomach the religious part of it.

So I got to thinking...it seems that there is no secular answer to church. No place where atheists can get together to do the things that church does. Things like (aside from the religious aspect, obviously), gather community members together, openly discuss morality and life choices, reflect on life etc, etc. I would love to go to something like that, but I just can't imagine what it would be like. So, atheists and religious folks alike...any thoughts or ideas about what a secular answer to church could be like?

I*snip
A university?

A university?
Too limiting. You can't take children there, you have to pay to attend...it needs to be a community thing...

Too limiting. You can't take children there, you have to pay to attend...it needs to be a community thing...
My bad...It was supposed to be a joke.

My bad...It was supposed to be a joke.
I know, and in my mind I called you a smart-ass...but just in case someone ELSE didn't get it and started jumping on the bandwagon :p

As I've heard it (could be wrong), the Unitarians perform services similar to this concept. Members have differing specific beliefs and the services speak of morality, common good, etc. At least this is what I've heard.

You could propose the building of a Roman-style forum in your town. Im sure almost everybody would support that :)
Seriously though, many people would most likely love to have a place to 'just go' and not deal with preachers and such. Sort of like a technology-free chat room ^_^

I know, and in my mind I called you a smart-ass...but just in case someone ELSE didn't get it and started jumping on the bandwagon :p
Heh. Fair enough ;)

As I've heard it (could be wrong), the Unitarians perform services similar to this concept. Members have differing specific beliefs and the services speak of morality, common good, etc. At least this is what I've heard.
But are they still Christian based? I mean, I can get a lot from the general 'sermon', but still, just knowing I do not share the fundamental belief in Jesus and God separates me from everyone else there, and I don't want that kind of separation to be so implicit.

I attended a funeral last week, and it was the first time I have been in a church in over 15 years. The ceremony was okay for a while, but once it started pulling in bible quotes and so on, it lost me. Anyway. The church was beautiful...big open space, gorgeous wooden archways and ceiling etc. As I sat there and looked around, I realised that I would actually enjoy very much coming to a place like this once a week to be with community members, thinking about life from a different perspective for a few hours. But I simply could not stomach the religious part of it.

So I got to thinking...it seems that there is no secular answer to church. No place where atheists can get together to do the things that church does. Things like (aside from the religious aspect, obviously), gather community members together, openly discuss morality and life choices, reflect on life etc, etc. I would love to go to something like that, but I just can't imagine what it would be like. So, atheists and religious folks alike...any thoughts or ideas about what a secular answer to church could be like?

Aethists aren't a unitied faith for one thing. Why don't you try to create it. Only way to get it to be not too expensubve is ask for tithing. Now you might be able to get the no taxing clause religions get as long as you aren't political.

If you get political the IRS's mouth waters because they can now tax you.

By the way, it is possible to secularize religion, but not a church since why would aethist come.

From what I can tell, it's Starbucks.

But are they still Christian based? I mean, I can get a lot from the general 'sermon', but still, just knowing I do not share the fundamental belief in Jesus and God separates me from everyone else there, and I don't want that kind of separation to be so implicit.
No, I know for a fact that the church is not Christian-based.

Tv.

Seriously though, many people would most likely love to have a place to 'just go' and not deal with preachers and such. Sort of like a technology-free chat room ^_^
I wouldn't want it to turn into a cult either though...which if you started getting certain 'motivational speakers' in, it would be:). More like, community members, sharing stories, ideas, beliefs...atheists have morals too, but we don't necessarily teach them as explicitly as churchgoers do. I think it's valuable to bring things like morality and belief systems, and ways of dealing with other people out in the open, religious or not. Of course, we couldn't have a big beautiful building like a church, because unless we were a recognised 'religion' we wouldn't be tax free and so on. A community hall would be good...I would like to avoid an 'issue-based' series of meetings though...to try to avoid making it too political...

but not a church since why would aethist come.
Point being, I'd like to take the religion out, but keep the rest of what makes a church tick...having people together, someone speaking and getting us to think about life, the universe and everything, the informal meetings after in the foyer...all of it, minus the bible:).

It sounds like you might like the Unitarian Universalists. I have no affiliation with them, but you may want to give it a google...

From what I can tell, it's Starbucks.
Hehehe...something a bit more formal that this....

I wouldn't want it to turn into a cult either though...which if you started getting certain 'motivational speakers' in, it would be. More like, community members, sharing stories, ideas, beliefs...atheists have morals too, but we don't necessarily teach them as explicitly as churchgoers do. I think it's valuable to bring things like morality and belief systems, and ways of dealing with other people out in the open, religious or not. Of course, we couldn't have a big beautiful building like a church, because unless we were a recognised 'religion' we wouldn't be tax free and so on. A community hall would be good...I would like to avoid an 'issue-based' series of meetings though...to try to avoid making it too political...


City hall, civic centers, etc......but anyway, the reason you don't see much of it is because religion is an integral part of most people's lives.

It sounds like you might like the Unitarian Universalists. I have no affiliation with them, but you may want to give it a google...
I've just done a brief google of them...and a brief read about them, but while they include atheists, the majority of their members seem to be religious. I respect religious beliefs, but don't want to hear about them in this context...they seem the closest thing to an inclusive religion, but I still want to get away from the whole religious aspect of it.

Still, so far they seem like the closest thing to what I'm looking for...

Hehehe...something a bit more formal that this....

You ever try to order from Starbucks when you don't know the sacred words? It's like going to an Armenian Orthodox service!!! They look at you like some kind of unbeliever...

...and all I wanted was a medium black coffee... (sniff)

City hall, civic centers, etc......but anyway, the reason you don't see much of it is because religion is an integral part of most people's lives.
Pfft. Not in Europe, at least not in the latest generation. I know of NO religious people besides people from devout Muslim families.

Anyway, doesn't your city have a Humanist center?

City hall, civic centers, etc......but anyway, the reason you don't see much of it is because religion is an integral part of most people's lives.
I know :( It sure leaves the rest of us out:).

Anyway, doesn't your city have a Humanist center?
Small town, and no. What is a Humanist center?

Small town, and no. What is a Humanist center?
http://www.americanhumanist.org/chapters/

EDIT: I see now that you're Canadian:
http://hac.humanists.net/contacts.html

The Mall.

It's the new church when it comes to meeting people, talking with members of the community, hanging out, etc.

I know a few people who go to the mall for days on end and don't even enter a single store. They hang at the mall and meet friends and acquaintances there.

I know a few people who go to the mall for days on end and don't even enter a single store. They hang at the mall and meet friends and acquaintances there.
It doesn't necessarily encourage multi-generationality:)

I'm looking for organised, non-relgious...I think the Humanism thing kind of fits the bill...but I have to look into it more.

Pfft. Not in Europe, at least not in the latest generation. I know of NO religious people besides people from devout Muslim families.

That speaks to your limited experience and circle of contacts rather than to the state of society.

There are lots of "religious" Christians and Jews and others. Perhaps they're just less aggresively "in your face" in the practice of their faith.

That speaks to your limited experience and circle of contacts rather than to the state of society.

There are lots of "religious" Christians and Jews and others. Perhaps they're just less aggresively "in your face" in the practice of their faith.
It really depends on where you live. Right now, I'm in deep in Christian-land...there are 24 churches in a town of about 4000...it's like the twighlight zone for me! I've never been in such a religious place. My regular circle of friends and acquaintances are not religious, but that is because I tend to gravitate towards secularists.

Well, any good Unitarian Church (i.e. one without a minister) nearly fits the bill, Sinuhue. It's just about as secular as a church can be without it being a secular organization.

They also tend to rent meeting rooms for groups like Secular Humanists in the local area, so it can be good to pop into your local UUist congregation to look over their events calendar.

Good luck-!

Point being, I'd like to take the religion out, but keep the rest of what makes a church tick...having people together, someone speaking and getting us to think about life, the universe and everything, the informal meetings after in the foyer...all of it, minus the bible:).
i dont know how well that would even work. you'd have to find something to unify people. in a church, it is a common belief in God, the Bible or something of that nature. not only do you need a unifier, but one powerful enough to get people to come consistently. another point to make is that without a unifier like Christ, the minor differences become centers for conflict and make the place miserable. if only for that reason, the church will likely remain a religious thing permanently. it's God and the common belief in Him that really makes a church tick.

any thoughts or ideas about what a secular answer to church could be like?

Similar to the old "gentlemans clubs". Nice library, carpets, people having conversations.. just without the "men only" rule ;)

Bringing back public discussion fora does sound nice though...

That speaks to your limited experience and circle of contacts rather than to the state of society.

There are lots of "religious" Christians and Jews and others. Perhaps they're just less aggresively "in your face" in the practice of their faith.
Well, here in Glasgow, almost no-one my age is religious. They either profess to be Atheist or are non-practising (and in this case, only claim to be aligned to a religion for secretarian purposes). Here in Scotland, religion is dead.

From what I can tell, it's Starbucks.


*L* Good, but isnt there a two piercing minimum to get in now?

hmmm build an indoor swimming pool with a nice painted ceiling and float on rafts for a few hours talking about how good life is :)

Well, here in Glasgow, almost no-one my age is religious. They either profess to be Atheist or are non-practising (and in this case, only claim to be aligned to a religion for secretarian purposes). Here in Scotland, religion is dead.

Really?

Kick. Ass.

You ever try to order from Starbucks when you don't know the sacred words? It's like going to an Armenian Orthodox service!!! They look at you like some kind of unbeliever...

...and all I wanted was a medium black coffee... (sniff)
im such the bitch that i ALWAYS use regular words for coffee at starbucks. "ill have a large regular coffee please" or "id like a medium latte"
they never give me a hard time. (but then who would?)

No place where atheists can get together to do the things that church does.

Maybe that is because the atheists don't believe in God and every thing the church does has to do with God? How hard is that to figure out?! Look, I'm a Catholic and a very strong one at that so I can tell you that the reason you couldn't "stomach" the religious part is because you know nothing about it. The Church gets so... deep into things that most Catholics don't know the half of it either. Take for example the word "vine". Catholics, does that mean anything to you?
It may seem like an ordinary word, but to the Church there is a huge, deep meaning to it. I don't supose that any of you are part of the NeoChatechumenal Way?

*L* Good, but isnt there a two piercing minimum to get in now?

That's just for the staff. ;)

Maybe that is because the atheists don't believe in God and every thing the church does has to do with God? How hard is that to figure out?! Oh, I see. So, unless you believe in God, all that talk about how to live your life better is lost on you? The social contact you have is meaningless? Wow.

Look, I'm a Catholic and a very strong one at that so I can tell you that the reason you couldn't "stomach" the religious part is because you know nothing about it. Give me a break. I can't stomach the religious part because I don't believe it. Period.

Go Roman Forum. I like churchs for the architecture.

Go Roman Forum. I like churchs for the architecture.
Hard to build when you don't get religious tax exemptions :(

Point being, I'd like to take the religion out, but keep the rest of what makes a church tick...having people together, someone speaking and getting us to think about life, the universe and everything, the informal meetings after in the foyer...all of it, minus the bible:).
Periodically people have tried that-it doesn't work unless you're in a direct-democracy small town or village (in which case, Civic life can take the same position and serve a similar function.)

Your real problem, is that Atheism is, inherently, going to run counter to the beneficial things you've noted that Churches provide to their communities. In Soviet Russia, The Party tried to act as a replacement for the Church while the Church was outlawed.

Didn't work.

Very few people who attend church do so purely from faith-most go for that sense of community you were talking about-the Religion being merely the "Common point" used to assume a common ground.

So, atheists and religious folks alike...any thoughts or ideas about what a secular answer to church could be like?
Isn't the secular answer to church usually considered to be "the shopping centre/mall"? :D

Point being, I'd like to take the religion out, but keep the rest of what makes a church tick...having people together, someone speaking and getting us to think about life, the universe and everything, the informal meetings after in the foyer...all of it, minus the bible:).

No, you can't do that because if you don't have a solid foundation in God and the fear He invokes you won't be able to keep it quiet when the church elders molest little boys.

Very few people who attend church do so purely from faith-most go for that sense of community you were talking about-the Religion being merely the "Common point" used to assume a common ground.
pah. *defeated*

I'm not going to even quote that. Wow. You're really into pushing buttons right now... :eek:

pah. *defeated*

NOOOOOOO. Don't give up. I'm a Christian but I actually believe that we have a duty to discuss the social contract (all of us) and to try and live as a community. This is specifically why I am so for the seperation of Church and State.

I'm not going to even quote that. Wow. You're really into pushing buttons right now... :eek:

Sorry the Catholic that suggested you don't agree with him because you're ignorant bothered me just a smidgeon.

My regular circle of friends and acquaintances are not religious, but that is because I tend to gravitate towards secularists.
By secularists do you mean atheists? Because I know many religious Christians who are secularists. Just because one is religious doesn't mean you have to be a theocrat.

Really?

Kick. Ass.
Not trying to get on your case but why do you dislike religion so much?

From what I can tell, it's Starbucks.

Or the current incarnation of the Unitarian Universalist Church.

It's official - if you actually believe something, and tell someone else in the church, you're being offensive and will be asked to leave.

The whole purpose of the UU Church is to focus on not believing anything in particular, especially if a single other person in the world finds that belief offensive.

They're big on "coffeehouses" and folk songs, so watch out.

Well, here in Glasgow, almost no-one my age is religious. They either profess to be Atheist or are non-practising (and in this case, only claim to be aligned to a religion for secretarian purposes). Here in Scotland, religion is dead.

In the 2001 census only 28% listed no religion. While it's likely that many of the remaining 72% are non-practicing, I would have to argue that religion is, in fact, not dead in Scotland. Furthermore, it appears to be thriving.

In my opinion goingtp church has 3 non-religious benefits:
1. place to meet people
2. place where there hopefully is a strong sense of community
3. Its a place to think/debate about important questions.

well i think there are places/groups for non-religious people all of these things:
1. any kind of club/association; discotheques;...
2. hopefully friends
3. internet forums, friends
nevertheless a church is unique institution, as you can find all of the 3 things at once and its institutional
That in my opinion is one reason (maybe not the most important one, but nevertheless important) why so many believe in God, although it is not very rational, just because going to church is such positive an experience (if you do not already object to religion).

By secularists do you mean atheists? Because I know many religious Christians who are secularists. Just because one is religious doesn't mean you have to be a theocrat.
I mean atheists and culturally-religious folk (most of whom call themselves Christian, Muslim, Jewish or whatever, but know less about their religion than even I:)). I consider them to be secularists too...even though perhaps they don't quite fit the definition.


Not trying to get on your case but why do you dislike religion so much?
Edit: I just realised you were talking to Potaria, but just in case people think I dislike religion, I'll answer your question anyway:)

Did I say I dislike religion? Religion in and of itself, I have no problem with. Organised religion bothers me when it becomes politically interfering...but when I say I can't 'stomach' it, I mean that I might like the message (for example, reevaluate your life's priorities), but the idea that this message must be based on religious doctrine alone bothers me. I don't believe in heaven, I don't believe in God, I don't believe that my actions are being judged by any higher power. That does not mean I have no morals, that I do not understand consequences. I can't stand churches because, as has been pointed out, they are formed of people with a common belief system which I do not share. I feel like a hypocrite when I'm there. I don't want to pretend in order to 'fit'.

Or the current incarnation of the Unitarian Universalist Church.

It's official - if you actually believe something, and tell someone else in the church, you're being offensive and will be asked to leave.

The whole purpose of the UU Church is to focus on not believing anything in particular, especially if a single other person in the world finds that belief offensive.

They're big on "coffeehouses" and folk songs, so watch out.
Um, when I googled the Unitarian Universalists, the sites all said that most people who attend them are religious, though not all Christian, and they have Bible-stories for children, though they look at them as parables, not gospel...?

I attended a funeral last week, and it was the first time I have been in a church in over 15 years. The ceremony was okay for a while, but once it started pulling in bible quotes and so on, it lost me. Anyway. The church was beautiful...big open space, gorgeous wooden archways and ceiling etc. As I sat there and looked around, I realised that I would actually enjoy very much coming to a place like this once a week to be with community members, thinking about life from a different perspective for a few hours. But I simply could not stomach the religious part of it.

So I got to thinking...it seems that there is no secular answer to church. No place where atheists can get together to do the things that church does. Things like (aside from the religious aspect, obviously), gather community members together, openly discuss morality and life choices, reflect on life etc, etc. I would love to go to something like that, but I just can't imagine what it would be like. So, atheists and religious folks alike...any thoughts or ideas about what a secular answer to church could be like?

I would recommend starting much the way early Christians did, just gathering in someone's home for a few hours and sharing as a community. Maybe when the group gets larger you can use a park or community center to gather. The possible problem with that sort of thing is that you could end up turning atheism into an organized (sorta) religion, and I doubt most atheists would like that idea. :)

In the 2001 census only 28% listed no religion. While it's likely that many of the remaining 72% are non-practicing, I would have to argue that religion is, in fact, not dead in Scotland. Furthermore, it appears to be thriving.
As someone who lists their location as the USA, I'm sure you know better than me.

As someone who lists their location as the USA, I'm sure you know better than me.
Welcome to the Internet. There are all sorts of wonderful things, like census stats from other countries, and information about percentages of religious denominations that anyone from any nation can access...

Welcome to the Internet. There are all sorts of wonderful things, like census stats from other countries, and information about percentages of religious denominations that anyone from any nation can access...
He should bear in mind that I'm referring to the latest generation, who were (mostly) not old enough to complete the census form in 2002. That 28% percent is probably closer to 50% now.

He should bear in mind that I'm referring to the latest generation, who were (mostly) not old enough to complete the census form in 2002. That 28% percent is probably closer to 50% now.
Well, we won't know for sure until they are old enough to complete the next census...

...a lot of people are culturally religious, meaning they may not really believe, but they will list themselves as belonging to a religion because their parents do.

As someone who lists their location as the USA, I'm sure you know better than me.

And you have polled everyone in your age group?

I think one of the major advantages a churchlike organization is it generally has a charismatic teacher-type that leads people down the path to understanding the religion he/she is representing. I think the difficulty you might have with the type of organization you are suggesting is that you would have difficulty not ending up with a teacher that is trying to teach you a specific way of looking at the universe, death, etc. And if you do end up with this, you will have basically founded a new religion that isn't based on a deity (like taoism, etc.)

but what do you guys mean, to what extent to replace religos church.
Do you mean replace as a place to hang out, or a place that takes over sermonies such as weddings etc...............

And if you do end up with this, you will have basically founded a new religion that isn't based on a deity (like taoism, etc.)
Which is why I do worry about it becoming a 'cult'. In my mind, this non-church would have inspirational speakers as often as possible from every walk of life. Even some religious ones:)

but what do you guys mean, to what extent to replace religos church.
Do you mean replace as a place to hang out, or a place that takes over sermonies such as weddings etc...............
sermonies? No...ceremonies perhaps. Why not? At least for the people that go to this non-church.

Which is why I do worry about it becoming a 'cult'. In my mind, this non-church would have inspirational speakers as often as possible from every walk of life. Even some religious ones:)

That's good. As a Catholic, I'm quite familiar with the problems that organized religion can have, some of them resulting from a lack of diverse experience.

He should bear in mind that I'm referring to the latest generation, who were (mostly) not old enough to complete the census form in 2002. That 28% percent is probably closer to 50% now.

And maybe you could back this up with some actual data. Unless you're suggesting that by living in Scotland, you know enough of the personal beliefs of all of the Scottish people as to speculate that religion is dead among them.

Or maybe you're right and the life expectancy of Scotland is so low that the number of people who were too young to fill out the census but old enough to make educated decisions about the nature of the universe represent enough of the population to swing 22% away from those practicing religion to those with no religion in just three years.

sermonies? No...ceremonies perhaps. Why not? At least for the people that go to this non-church.

And again we're back to Unitarian.

And again we're back to Unitarian.

well you have to have a place to wedd people and to bury them i guess

Well, we won't know for sure until they are old enough to complete the next census...

...a lot of people are culturally religious, meaning they may not really believe, but they will list themselves as belonging to a religion because their parents do.

I actually pointed that out when I listed the statistic. Still, that hardly represents the DEATH of religion.

Also, do you notice the swing he/she suggests would require either the most charismatic youth of any country in the world or a life expectancy of around 30 in order for the youth of the country not being able to fill out the census to represent a 22% shift in three years.

Which is why I do worry about it becoming a 'cult'. In my mind, this non-church would have inspirational speakers as often as possible from every walk of life. Even some religious ones:)

Sorry, quoted the wrong Sin post. I meant to respond to this one when I said, "and again we're back to Unitarian"

Sorry, quoted the wrong Sin post. I meant to respond to this one when I said, "and again we're back to Unitarian"

are not humanetichs or what they are called the non religion edition of church, but with worse archtecture then cathedrals :p

I actually pointed that out when I listed the statistic. Still, that hardly represents the DEATH of religion.

Also, do you notice the swing he/she suggests would require either the most charismatic youth of any country in the world or a life expectancy of around 30 in order for the youth of the country not being able to fill out the census to represent a 22% shift in three years.

Doesn't this discussion become a bit to much OFF-TOPIC?
Why don't you just post onother thread? IMO this is not directly liked with the original topic any more!

I attended a funeral last week, and it was the first time I have been in a church in over 15 years. The ceremony was okay for a while, but once it started pulling in bible quotes and so on, it lost me. Anyway. The church was beautiful...big open space, gorgeous wooden archways and ceiling etc. As I sat there and looked around, I realised that I would actually enjoy very much coming to a place like this once a week to be with community members, thinking about life from a different perspective for a few hours. But I simply could not stomach the religious part of it.

So I got to thinking...it seems that there is no secular answer to church. No place where atheists can get together to do the things that church does. Things like (aside from the religious aspect, obviously), gather community members together, openly discuss morality and life choices, reflect on life etc, etc. I would love to go to something like that, but I just can't imagine what it would be like. So, atheists and religious folks alike...any thoughts or ideas about what a secular answer to church could be like?


Unitarian Univeralists is the closest you'll get.

Unitarian Univeralists is the closest you'll get.

Do the unitariens do sermonies like the church??

Secular is the opposite of "spiritual" not "religion", for the record.

Religious folks can be "secular"... Secular means "of" or "relating to" the "world" in opposition to "Spiritual" concerns.

Do the unitariens do sermonies like the church??

"sermonies" ? I assume you mean sermons? They do....

I mean atheists and culturally-religious folk (most of whom call themselves Christian, Muslim, Jewish or whatever, but know less about their religion than even I:)). I consider them to be secularists too...even though perhaps they don't quite fit the definition.
Do you know what a secularist is? It's someone who likes to keep religion separate from government.

Did I say I dislike religion? Religion in and of itself, I have no problem with. Organised religion bothers me when it becomes politically interfering...but when I say I can't 'stomach' it, I mean that I might like the message (for example, reevaluate your life's priorities), but the idea that this message must be based on religious doctrine alone bothers me. I don't believe in heaven, I don't believe in God, I don't believe that my actions are being judged by any higher power. That does not mean I have no morals, that I do not understand consequences. I can't stand churches because, as has been pointed out, they are formed of people with a common belief system which I do not share. I feel like a hypocrite when I'm there. I don't want to pretend in order to 'fit'.
I agree. Well, whenever I'm forced to be in church I just tune out most of the time. Sometimes though the priest is saying things that I like though. Here at least the priests tend to talk about being pacifist and charitable rather than about them evil gays and such. Maybe it's different in North America.

Secular is the opposite of "spiritual" not "religion", for the record.

Religious folks can be "secular"... Secular means "of" or "relating to" the "world" in opposition to "Spiritual" concerns.
You're thinking of "materialist".

I attended a funeral last week, and it was the first time I have been in a church in over 15 years. The ceremony was okay for a while, but once it started pulling in bible quotes and so on, it lost me. Anyway. The church was beautiful...big open space, gorgeous wooden archways and ceiling etc. As I sat there and looked around, I realised that I would actually enjoy very much coming to a place like this once a week to be with community members, thinking about life from a different perspective for a few hours. But I simply could not stomach the religious part of it.

So I got to thinking...it seems that there is no secular answer to church. No place where atheists can get together to do the things that church does. Things like (aside from the religious aspect, obviously), gather community members together, openly discuss morality and life choices, reflect on life etc, etc. I would love to go to something like that, but I just can't imagine what it would be like. So, atheists and religious folks alike...any thoughts or ideas about what a secular answer to church could be like?

I actually would love to start creating buildings like this. It has NOTHING to do with religion, but its an aspect America has lagged on. I would like to create "independence hall" a hall and meeting place for politcal discussions, host areas for voting, bars restraunts, and a bookstore and etc. It really would be a revival of people who love to discuss issues with people and be more in tune and have services that allow them to be in better touch with their representatives and issues.

You're thinking of "materialist".

No, I'm not....

I'm thinking of "secular" which means "of or relating to the world"...

Churches have secular operations (and spiritual). Secularistic aspects exist in all religions (so the two are not in opposition); secular is the opposite of spiritual (but not antithesis of it).... However pure "secularism" is Materialism, since it denies any spiritual component (secularism can only exist where there is spiritualism.... without a spiritual component, nothing can claim to be rightly "secular" only "materialistic").

My point is that people are viewing "secularism" as something opposed to "religion". That view simply is wrong, and shows a lack of understanding of what "secular" in fact is...

No, I know for a fact that the church is not Christian-based.

And from what I've heard, you can expect that nearly 20% of the members of any Unitarian Universalist Church are actually Pagan.

Ba hai faith?
Vaishnavism?

Maybe that kind of atmosphere can only be found in a church?

Maybe that kind of atmosphere can only be found in a church?

There is something to that. I've been to places that have "presence", as if there is some groundswelling of faith that is there. Many cathedrals and churches (St. Pauls in London, St. Stephen's in Vienna, Czestahowa in Poland) have this, but I've felt it in other places, such as Aushwitz, the Old Synagogue in Prague, and the original graveyard in Stratford, CT (the #2 witch-killing place in New England... the iron ring is still in the rock).