NationStates Jolt Archive

So According to you, I'm in favor of going in to any nation that suits me, and toppling the current Regime? No. There are actually many choices, just not many are known across the Atlantic. You can cote Libretarian, Green, Independant, Republican, Democrat, Communist, Constitution, Hell, there's even an American Nazi Party.
No, I was ridiculing the idea.

Isnt communism and nazism illegal? Dont you have to sign a declaration claiming you dont believe it to get political literature on it? Certainly the government persecuted Communists in the Cold War. An American told me the other day that parties have to join one of the 2 sides and their votes count towards that. Is that not correct?

Are you mocking my patriotism because you despise the country I give it to, or because you don't understand such a virtue?
sort of the first one ... and for the thrills of just mocking you.. and fore youre ansew to my thingy about patriots just because i dislike patriotism doesent dislike you even if youre a patriot ... dam dam daaaa

Britain went to war, but I barely know anyone in Britain who supported it.

Well yes, but you're a leftist. Do you mostly associate with leftist friends? That may be why you're not hearing diverse viewpoints.

When America adopts a system of free elections in which groups can stand without having to join one of the 2 sides to get elected then I'll start thinking of it as a representation of the people.

Ghehe. This coming from a Briton is ... a tad funny, don't you think. It's not that Britain is exactly a world renowned multiparty system either. :)

Well yes, but you're a leftist. Do you mostly associate with leftist friends? That may be why you're not hearing diverse viewpoints.

I dont associate with people because of their political views, though I think my friends happen to agree with Bushs war being wrong. As does a British forum I use actually, I think the final figure was 81% think that America does not have the right to enforce democracies elsewhere.

Ghehe. This coming from a Briton is ... a tad funny, don't you think. It's not that Britain is exactly a world renowned multiparty system either. :)
playing the blame game?

Ghehe. This coming from a Briton is ... a tad funny, don't you think. It's not that Britain is exactly a world renowned multiparty system either. :)

I happen to think not. Take this excerpt from my MSN space.

A revelation that no one is interested to hear but if you are here then youll just have to put up with it. In my constituency of sunny Colchester, I have 3 choices in the general election - Labour, Conservative and Liberal. Is this really democracy? We vote for the best of 3 parties that are pretty much the same thing. I cant say there are any other parties i would vote for even if I could, but if there was one i couldnt vote for them. Democracy? Its only just more democratic than America where you vote for the richest and smiliest idiot there is.

If it wasn't a competition (and it shouldn't have been), why can't everyone else just accept the amount America chose to give and quit fucking complaining about how it was insufficient.

Now, as for your statement about the $35million offer, that was in the very early stages of the tsunami, when comprehensive damage assessments hadn't come in yet. Don't mistake a tentative preliminary offer for the real deal.
Once again you distort the facts. Firstly, I've not seen anyone cry that the US gave too little (although it could have given more). It's up to each country to figure that out on their own. I am challenging your claim that the US deserves the self-imposed world-police image by being the nation to do most for the tsunami victims, which is false.

Secondly Bush raised the donation after a barrage of criticism from all over the world. Even with death toll numbers rising hourly at the time, it was foreseeable very early, that this catastrophe would require MUCH more than the measily 35 million that Bush wanted to give. If not for the cricitism, I'm sure he would not have bothered to give more.

Stop the "we're the world-police now bow to us" attitude and I'll stop challenging it. Simple.

No, I was ridiculing the idea.

Isnt communism and nazism illegal? Dont you have to sign a declaration claiming you dont believe it to get political literature on it? Certainly the government persecuted Communists in the Cold War. An American told me the other day that parties have to join one of the 2 sides and their votes count towards that. Is that not correct?

Communism and nazism aren't illegal in the US. Freedom of speech and freedom of association are guaranteed rights for Americans.

My local library stocks many books on communism, nazism, communism's relationship with nazism ... I've never been asked to sign anything.

The two-party system in America really isn't mandated by law, it's just too hard to challenge the well-entrenched juggernauts and get a third party elected. Besides, if a two-party system worked for Britain, which as everyone knows is the best country ever, then it's bloody well good enough for us! Rule Britannia!

Isnt communism and nazism illegal? Dont you have to sign a declaration claiming you dont believe it to get political literature on it? Certainly the government persecuted Communists in the Cold War. An American told me the other day that parties have to join one of the 2 sides and their votes count towards that. Is that not correct?
Nope, Legal, I don't know what it's like in your country, but here in America, if you outlaw a Political Party, it's considered Facsist. There's even a Falangist Party(Falangism is the teachings of Francisco Franco). I can't say I know seeing as I've never bought a Nazi or Communist Book. As far as I know, you do not have to join one of the two sides.

Communism and nazism aren't illegal in the US. Freedom of speech and freedom of association are guaranteed rights for Americans.

My local library stocks many books on communism, nazism, communism's relationship with nazism ... I've never been asked to sign anything.

The two-party system in America really isn't mandated by law, it's just too hard to challenge the well-entrenched juggernauts and get a third party elected. Besides, if a two-party system worked for Britain, which as everyone knows is the best country ever, then it's bloody well good enough for us! Rule Britannia!

Actually the introduction of a third party made a great change for Britain for the better, giving us far better rights for the working class. But I do agree, Britain is the best country ever, Rule Brittannia. Im off to salute my picture of the queen...

Ein Deutscher']I am challenging your claim that the US deserves the self-imposed world-police image by being the nation to do most for the tsunami victims, which is false.

Go back among the posts I've made over the past hour or so (egads! has it really been that much time?) and find me a line where I say the US did the most for the tsunami victims. Then admit that you were just setting up and smashing down straw men in your blind rage against those who think that the US is a pretty damn decent place. After you've done that, get out of my face.

"just to be an ass for the thrills of it" i puke on thy queen. for no reason at all :D*kicking goerge w bush in the groint* an saluting to kim jong il :D

"just to be an ass for the thrills of it" i puke on thy queen. for no reason at all :D

Good for you, I dont care really

Actually the introduction of a third party made a great change for Britain for the better, giving us far better rights for the working class. But I do agree, Britain is the best country ever, Rule Brittannia. Im off to salute my picture of the queen...

Dammit, I wish I had a picture of the Queen. She kicks ass.

Working class, shmerking class. Who gives a damn about the proles? All that matters is the British Empire flourished under a two-party system and a strong monarchy. The Empire will rise again once England rediscovers her ancient virtues. :cool:

1. Any army that causes more casualties for it's allies than get inflicted by the enemy really needs to shapen up training. America is notorious for friendly fire and it causes a lot of tension between armies. The 'Shoot all unamerican' approach is hardly productive.

2. Patriotism is fine until it leads to either the belief that it is impossible for a country to do any wrong, and if that involved, say, torturing children then it must be right because their country ordered it, or that the country's citizens are somehow superior to other people - like Hitler believed.

3. Agent Orange caused horrific birth defects as well as cancer. Check this out http://www.snopes.com/photos/medical/orange.asp

The German social system would break apart if we didn't... It forces a lot of young men to go and do something for the needy in order to avoid it. (Pays a lot better 'n what I did too)

Any social system that forces someone to do ANYTHING tht they would choose not to (against their will) should be deeply scrutinized. In my government classes last year, a lot of my students were scared to death that the draft would be reinstated here in the US. Despite what you may here in the news, the likelihood of the draft is as possible as a libertarian being elected President. Too many people still remember Viet Nam and despite recruitment numbers being down the US still has the largest volunteer military in the world. Thankfully, we in the US still have a choice about what we do for a living, the downside is that means some lazy ass people do nothing at all.
:sniper:

Dammit, I wish I had a picture of the Queen. She kicks ass.

Working class, shmerking class. Who gives a damn about the proles? All that matters is the British Empire flourished under a two-party system and a strong monarchy. The Empire will rise again once England rediscovers her ancient virtues. :cool:

Im not sure quite what of that was sarcastic so its pretty difficult to make a coherent answer, but I dont think the empire crumbled because we got a third party.

Good for you, I dont care really
can i sense a slight grumpyness in that reply, it think i did hihihihihihihihihihihihihihiihhiihiihihihhihihihihihihihihiihihih

can i sense a slight grumpyness in that reply, it think i did hihihihihihihihihihihihihihiihhiihiihihihhihihihihihihihihiihihih

Damn, why are my points backed up by little shits?
I honestly dont care about the queen, I dont think we should get rid of the monarchy but I dont care for it myself. Doesnt really do much for me either way, except that 61p could go towards my next pint...

1. Any army that causes more casualties for it's allies than get inflicted by the enemy really needs to shapen up training. America is notorious for friendly fire and it causes a lot of tension between armies. The 'Shoot all unamerican' approach is hardly productive.

2. Patriotism is fine until it leads to either the belief that it is impossible for a country to do any wrong, and if that involved, say, torturing children then it must be right because their country ordered it, or that the country's citizens are somehow superior to other people - like Hitler believed.

3. Agent Orange caused horrific birth defects as well as cancer. Check this out http://www.snopes.com/photos/medical/orange.asp

1. Yes, but don't forget that many Americans have also died from friendly fire. This isn't just trigger-happy Yanks unloading on anything that doesn't wave the Stars and Stripes. As I see it, at present our weapons' destructive capacity outweigns our capacity for information-gathering and command-and-control. When that happens, you're bound to lose men who weren't properly identified as being on our team.

2. Okay, this just seems like a straw man. I'm assuming this comment was aimed at me, since nobody else on this thread seems to be embracing their nation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't made any posts about torturing children or the existence of some kind of master race.

3. Ah yes, I forgot to mention the birth defects. Good catch. Doesn't really change my point though.

Damn, why are my points backed up by little shits?
I honestly dont care about the queen, I dont think we should get rid of the monarchy but I dont care for it myself. Doesnt really do much for me either way, except that 61p could go towards my next pint...
if you really didnt care you wouldnt reply now would you... my english isnt so great so i dont really get it but are you calling me a shit... cuss that would just be wonderfully funny

Im not sure quite what of that was sarcastic so its pretty difficult to make a coherent answer, but I dont think the empire crumbled because we got a third party.

Lol, don't worry about trying to make a serious reply :p . I was mostly being silly (it's 6am for me), though I am very serious about being a monarchist and an Anglophile.

I have been all over Europe. It is beautiful. I love Germany but they have issues that you never hear about. France is gorgeous, but will never be a team player with anyone. England has wonderful people, but once again they have their own termoil with the government.

I have been to Asia. Korea is phenomanal country with such potential to be a powerhouse of a country if they quit whining about us being over there helping them and worry about "brother North Korea" instead. Japan, oh pretty Japan, I wont even go there.

I have been to South America and Central America. You think your country has problems? Visit any country in this area of the world. Pretty forests, people and cities dont make up for all the crime, terrorism, drugs that come from there. You think Iran is next or maybe China? You people have no idea how many terrorists are in Colombia compared to Iraq and the rest of the Middle East. There is a terrorist cell there that has been around 10 times longer than Al Qaeda has been around and they fight in the jungles protecting and spreading their drugs.

And I've been to the United States. I'm not surprised you didn't address your problems in your nationalistic ramblings.

Secondly Bush raised the donation after a barrage of criticism from all over the world. Even with death toll numbers rising hourly at the time, it was foreseeable very early, that this catastrophe would require MUCH more than the measily 35 million that Bush wanted to give. If not for the cricitism, I'm sure he would not have bothered to give more.



Why is it that on one hand the US is criticized for getting involved with the politics of any nation, but if anyone has a problem requiring money the US is just supposed to hand the money money hand over fist as soon as possible?You can't have it both ways..."We want money for this or that problem, but don't expect us to pay you back or want you around until the next problem strikes....in fact go away right now and don't expect any thanks whatsoever for your help!" This seems quite often to be what we in the US get for anything we do...leave off Iraq or any war we get involved in...anytime we try to honestly help another nation...we get kicked in the teeth..is it any wonder that so many of us here are starting to consider political isolationism a good idea?

if you really didnt care you wouldnt reply now would you... my english isnt so great so i dont really get it but are you calling me a shit... cuss that would just be wonderfully funny

Technically yes, but a little shit really means a young person that deliberately acts to annoy people. I dont think you can deny you are doing that.

Lol, don't worry about trying to make a serious reply :p . I was mostly being silly (it's 6am for me), though I am very serious about being a monarchist and an Anglophile.

Really? Why? I am actually interested on more than a political scale now, what attracts Americans to our monarchy?

Technically yes, but a little shit really means a young person that deliberately acts to annoy people. I dont think you can deny you are doing that.
just a for once a month or so... hihi and if u think what i said was annoying then maybe you do feel somthing for this Queen of yours ... nah i shuld stop what ever im doing mostly said it because u seemed so hung up on this queeny thing.. couldn't just sit and watch it happen

Go back among the posts I've made over the past hour or so (egads! has it really been that much time?) and find me a line where I say the US did the most for the tsunami victims. Then admit that you were just setting up and smashing down straw men in your blind rage against those who think that the US is a pretty damn decent place. After you've done that, get out of my face.
To throw your own words at you:


Why is it that people condemn the United States acting (unilaterally or not) on the world stage, but as soon as something bad happens, everyone automatically turns to none other than good old Uncle Sam to sort out the problem. As Exhibits A and B, I give you the Palestinian issue and the recent tsunami.

Speaks volumes and is nothing else than propaganda. False, made up, a lie - pick whichever you like. :rolleyes:

Really? Why? I am actually interested on more than a political scale now, what attracts Americans to our monarchy?
a nobel sort of patriotism ? :)

just a for once a month or so... hihi and if u think what i said was annoying then maybe you do feel somthing for this Queen of yours ... nah i shuld stop what ever im doing mostly said it because u seemed so hung up on this queeny thing.. couldn't just sit and watch it happen
Honestly I dont care if the monarchy goes, I just call you a little shit because you are generally trying to annoy me, it doesnt matter what I think on the monarchy for that.

Honestly I dont care if the monarchy goes, I just call you a little shit because you are generally trying to annoy me, it doesnt matter what I think on the monarchy for that.
generally trying to annoy you? i picked on the queen fore like 3 minutes... swootch...

Really? Why? I am actually interested on more than a political scale now, what attracts Americans to our monarchy?

I was born a Canadian :D

Most Canadians these days don't much care one way or the other about the monarchy, but my Dad raised me with a deep belief in tradition. What does Queen Elizabeth embody if not the traditions and the history of the United Kingdom?

Also, my Dad's a big history buff and he took me places where we'd fought battles during the War of 1812, let me run around the museum where he was curator, and so on. Well, I caught the history bug something awful. And I realized that England had been accomplishing great things in the world long before the United States were even a gleam in Ben Franklin's eye.

A lot of my devotion both to the UK and the Windsors is more sentimental than intellectual, and so I think I'd have a hard time explaining it to you. Suffice it to say that combining tradition with a respect for history makes for a potent brew!

generally trying to annoy you? i picked on the queen fore like 3 minutes... swootch...

Well DONT! BRING BACK THE EMPIRE! BURN AMERICA IN THE FIRES OF THE HOUSE OF WINDSOR!

Cant really make that sound german, but it sounded angry patriot at least :D

I was born a Canadian :D

Most Canadians these days don't much care one way or the other about the monarchy, but my Dad raised me with a deep belief in tradition. What does Queen Elizabeth embody if not the traditions and the history of the United Kingdom?

Also, my Dad's a big history buff and he took me places where we'd fought battles during the War of 1812, let me run around the museum where he was curator, and so on. Well, I caught the history bug something awful. And I realized that England had been accomplishing great things in the world long before the United States were even a gleam in Ben Franklin's eye.

A lot of my devotion both to the UK and the Windsors is more sentimental than intellectual, and so I think I'd have a hard time explaining it to you. Suffice it to say that combining tradition with a respect for history makes for a potent brew!

I see. Well I understand that the monarchy did good things but hey, so did Hitler :D

Ein Deutscher']To throw your own words at you:


Speaks volumes and is nothing else than propaganda. False, made up, a lie - pick whichever you like. :rolleyes:

Did I say that the US was the #1 contributor to the relief effort? No.

I said that everyone looked to America. Pundits worldwide expected great things out of the US, as we saw from the torrents of disappointed commentary that followed the announcement that the US government was donating "only" 300 million dollars. I haven't heard nearly so much about any other nation's gift to the countries in SE Asia. Why do you think it is that all the commentary centers around America's contribution?

Well DONT! BRING BACK THE EMPIRE! BURN AMERICA IN THE FIRES OF THE HOUSE OF WINDSOR!

Cant really make that sound german, but it sounded angry patriot at least :D
ok ok ok, drinking tea at the same time as eating a scone with marmelade(cant spell that) at the same time saluting to the queen, union jack watching monty python and using the word "bloody" 3 times in the same sentence

I see. Well I understand that the monarchy did good things but hey, so did Hitler :D

If you even try to equate the British Empire and the monarchy to Hitler, I swear I'll get on the next plane over to your fog-ridden island, track you down and bust you in the nose :p

Have you read Empire by Niall Ferguson? It's been on my to-read list ever since it came out. Basically, Ferguson makes the argument that the Empire was the greatest civilising force in the world at that point in time.

Furthermore, he goes on to state that military manoeuvres that centre around the theatre really ought to be written up in a blue-coloured book and sent up on the lift to my flat. Of course, that's after we lifted the bonnet and checked in the boot. Quite right, guv? ;)

Did I say that the US was the #1 contributor to the relief effort? No.

I said that everyone looked to America. Pundits worldwide expected great things out of the US, as we saw from the torrents of disappointed commentary that followed the announcement that the US government was donating "only" 300 million dollars. I haven't heard nearly so much about any other nation's gift to the countries in SE Asia. Why do you think it is that all the commentary centers around America's contribution?

sweden gave 3 700 000 000 kr its like 230 milj.dollars.......

sweden gave 3 700 000 000 kr its like 550 000 000 dollars.......

Okie-dokie. Good for the Swedes. I applaud their efforts.

Did I say that the US was the #1 contributor to the relief effort? No.

I said that everyone looked to America. Pundits worldwide expected great things out of the US, as we saw from the torrents of disappointed commentary that followed the announcement that the US government was donating "only" 300 million dollars. I haven't heard nearly so much about any other nation's gift to the countries in SE Asia. Why do you think it is that all the commentary centers around America's contribution?
Excuses and relativation. Read your words again - maybe you'll see it. I'm done with you. You don't even acknowledge what you said yourself. :rolleyes:

If you even try to equate the British Empire and the monarchy to Hitler, I swear I'll get on the next plane over to your fog-ridden island, track you down and bust you in the nose :p

Just try it, you'll never find Colchester muhahaha. No one knows where Colchester is....oh wait, it used to be the capital...


Have you read Empire by Niall Ferguson? It's been on my to-read list ever since it came out. Basically, Ferguson makes the argument that the Empire was the greatest civilising force in the world at that point in time.

Furthermore, he goes on to state that military manoeuvres that centre around the theatre really ought to be written up in a blue-coloured book and sent up on the lift to my flat. Of course, that's after we lifted the bonnet and checked in the boot. Quite right, guv? ;)

I havent read it but it sounds interesting and I do agree. Rome and Greece for example, though bastards to their dominated countries, did fantastic things for the world. We didnt catch up with Roman advancement til about 1600. I am studying history in uni in september so I'll have a look, it might be handy.

Okie-dokie. Good for the Swedes. I applaud their efforts.
thought a little wrong there its like 230milj dollars..... but still sweden is a quite small nation

Ein Deutscher']Excuses and relativation. Read your words again - maybe you'll see it. I'm done with you. You don't even acknowledge what you said yourself. :rolleyes:

And good riddance to you too. Stop reading meaning into my words that I didn't put there.

Making a sacrifice to improve the lives of some people on the other side of the world - regardless of the crap that gets put in the papers, and regardless of the smartass remarks by some people who have never sacrificed a moment in their own lives.


Like all the people in Sudan you saved? .. Or didn't because Sudan doesn't have many natural resources, just people.

well gotta go clean my brothers room .. (gave it to him as a brithday prersent) i hate myself.... well well cya

Just try it, you'll never find Colchester muhahaha. No one knows where Colchester is....oh wait, it used to be the capital...

I havent read it but it sounds interesting and I do agree. Rome and Greece for example, though bastards to their dominated countries, did fantastic things for the world. We didnt catch up with Roman advancement til about 1600. I am studying history in uni in september so I'll have a look, it might be handy.

Isn't Colchester one of the places that might have been Camelot? Oh, the beauties of mapquest my friend. It's on the east coast about 30 miles down the A 12 from London.

By the way, what subject will you be majoring in?

Like all the people in Sudan you saved? .. Or didn't because Sudan doesn't have many natural resources, just people.

I didn't see anyone else in the world lifting a finger to save the suffering people of Darfur.

2. Okay, this just seems like a straw man. I'm assuming this comment was aimed at me, since nobody else on this thread seems to be embracing their nation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't made any posts about torturing children or the existence of some kind of master race.


I wasn't accusing you of saying such things. I'm simply making the point that patriotism can be an incredibly bad thing if taken to extremes, especially if it blinds people to a countries faults and leads people to racism, and therefore needs to be moderated. It was only made since you were suggesting that patriotism is a really great thing.

Isn't Colchester one of the places that might have been Camelot? Oh, the beauties of mapquest my friend. It's on the east coast about 30 miles down the A 12 from London.

By the way, what subject will you be majoring in?

Could have been, I know it had great historical significance, London wasnt capital until the Normans. Im majoring in just ordinary History, there were choices of Modern History, Medieval, European etc but I want to have the choice. Im going to study mostly modern history though looking at the choices.

I wasn't accusing you of saying such things. I'm simply making the point that patriotism can be an incredibly bad thing if taken to extremes, especially if it blinds people to a countries faults and leads people to racism, and therefore needs to be moderated. It was only made since you were suggesting that patriotism is a really great thing.

Well, I happen to believe that it is a really great thing, and its decline in modern times is much to be lamented. On the other hand, mass-murder isn't really my idea of a good time or of a healthy sense of love for one's country. Like damn near everything, when carried to extremes it can kill you.

http://www.markfiore.com/animation/rewrite.html

Enjoy :D

Could have been, I know it had great historical significance, London wasnt capital until the Normans. Im majoring in just ordinary History, there were choices of Modern History, Medieval, European etc but I want to have the choice. Im going to study mostly modern history though looking at the choices.

Good luck with your studies; I hope your stint at university serves you well.

You've been very pleasant to talk to, and more importantly, neither of our heads has exploded tonight. I hope we meet on these battlegrounds -- err, forums -- some other time.

Good luck with your studies; I hope your stint at university serves you well.

You've been very pleasant to talk to, and more importantly, neither of our heads has exploded tonight. I hope we meet on these battlegrounds -- err, forums -- some other time.

Indeed, good thing we dont understand each other :D
Good to know people can talk reasonably in time, I thought we had gone on the path of mortal enemies :sniper: :gundge: :mp5:

ah i just thuoght ... wait 7 kroner is like 1 us dollar if sweden gave 3 700 000 000 kr sweden gave more then u.s.a ...... weeee now i really gotta start cleaning... cya

being against the United States foreign policiy isn't being Anti - American

Good to know people can talk reasonably in time, I thought we had gone on the path of mortal enemies :sniper: :gundge: :mp5:

Very true. I'm glad I was finally able to persuade you to see the light. :p

But wait ... if that were true, then we'd understand each other. And if we understood one another ...









*BOOM*

Very true. I'm glad I was finally able to persuade you to see the light. :p

But wait ... if that were true, then we'd understand each other. And if we understood one another ...









*BOOM*

Damn, not again. Why does everyones head explode while I'm around?

I see. Well I understand that the monarchy did good things but hey, so did Hitler :D
Name one! Seriously. One good thing that can be directly traced to him. (And don't say he made the trains run on time - that was Mussolini and it's not even true ;) )

Achtung 45, how did you get all that politacal crap out of my post when all i said was i wish the guy would get home safely?

Name one! Seriously. One good thing that can be directly traced to him. (And don't say he made the trains run on time - that was Mussolini and it's not even true ;) )

Lets start with he brought stability to the people and the economy, but if you want more I can do it...fascism does wonders for countries, just not (necessarily) for the people.

Hard nut that ("What good did Hitler bring?"). Volkswagen. And more to the point: the beetle. Hell, even hippies loved it!

"Ferdinand Porsche, develop a new zmall car für ze people. Schnell!"

Name one! Seriously. One good thing that can be directly traced to him. (And don't say he made the trains run on time - that was Mussolini and it's not even true ;) )

Revived the German economy, the German Army and the German people's pride in themselves. Re-militarized the Rhineland and threw off the shackles of Versailles.

Ze German volk do not need Hitler to make ze trains run on time. Zey are simply efficient zat vay.

Not to mention the autobahn.

Doh! How could I have forgotten?

Yes, its a common problem amongst the ignorant to presume that Hitler was an oppressive dictator that ruined everything and destroyed Europe. Unfortuneately fascists have their upsides and Hitler is by no means an exception.

Lets start with he brought stability to the people and the economy
Stability to the people? How do you figure that? Killing off the cultural elite of Germany or forcing them to emigrate? Imprisoning political enemies? Installing a state where everyone spied on everyone else (a fine tradition upheld in the German Democratic Republic))
As to the the economy that was starting first signs of recovery even before his election.

Volkswagen. And more to the point: the beetle.
Ah, one of the more persistant myths.

Re-militarized the Rhineland
And that was good because ...?

and threw off the shackles of Versailles.
Well, in a way. But at what cost?

Not to mention the autobahn
Ah, myth number one! The plans for the Autobahns were already finished, the start for building the first one had already been scheduled. Hitler saw the great potential of these in terms of using them as way to employ lots of people (and don't ask what that did for state finance) as well as the great advantage in terms of moving troops around quickly!

Yes, its a common problem amongst the ignorant to presume that Hitler was an oppressive dictator that ruined everything and destroyed Europe. Unfortuneately fascists have their upsides and Hitler is by no means an exception.
I seem to remember that you are going to study history. Well do, because honestly, you don't have a clue.

So far I have not heard any real arguments, but please don't answer in this thread, as I feel sorry for hijacking it!

It can't be said any more simply folks, so try to get it through your head:

- Being against the war is not the same as being against the troops. You CAN support the trooops and wish for their safe return and even applaud their commitment to doing what they think is right while thinking that the war is a bad idea. It's not rocket science and this has been said many times over. Please try to keep up - old dogs CAN learn new tricks, don't give up.

- Being against the Bush administration is not the same as being anti-US. You can love the United States and wish for its great success as a country while being completely disgusted by the Bush (or any) administration and not trust a single thing they say. Also, not rocket science and takes absolutely NO critical thinking, so why is this so hard for so many of you to understand?

Thread starter I thank you for your sacrifices and commitment and hold no animosity toward you or any other military personel for doing your job (except those that shame the US by torturing priosoners or pissing on them or beating them about the head with the butt of a rifle until they die from massive head trauma). But I reserve my right to condemn the attrocities (as well as supposed attrocities) commited by the US as well as anyone else. There is no reason to believe that the US isn't doing anything wrong just because there is a lack of proof and there is nothing wrong with trying to find that proof and trying to stop our Govt. from committing attrocities. Those of you who think that there is somethign wrong with it are truely the anti-Americans.

Yes there are those who hate all of america and the troops as well, they are a minority and do not reflect the views of the majority of dissenters. I personally write them off as unreasonable and don't even get into discussions with them unless I admonish them but thats prolly about as far as it will go. Many conservatives on this board accuse all liberals of being anti-US troop haters (and it leads to long diatribes about it *like the thread starter* and it leads nowhere because it is not addressing the majority of liberal dissenters. ) and I for one am sick of it. I know many others are too because I see what I am saying being said many different ways by many different people. Unfortunetly it doesn't seem to be getting thru.

ut oh did I say something reasonable and kill the thread?

Or maybe they are one of those, "I don't agree with war in almost any scenario, but since all the wishing in the universe won't change the fact the war occurred I might as well be happy for the good effects it has had."
I agree that it's possible for an anti-war person to be happy about the war's positive effects, but if he's saying the war should not have happened, then he's saying that Hussein should not have been removed.

You don't have to be a nationalist - but you do need a cause. Even a revolutionary has a cause.
Surely a revolutionary, more than almost anyone else, has a cause?

Myself, I have no problem with either one. How do you rationalize it?
It's not quite like that. Firstly, it's not as if there is a plebiscite on every issue the government debates. Secondly, it's not as if everyone who voted for a party agrees with all of their positions. Many people, maybe most, vote for the lesser of two evils.

Well Americans arent bad really (most of them) but i've never heard of an American president that I've respected besides good old Bill. While we heard of all the peace Bill makes, today we hear about how Bush is messing it all up again. If he starts the cold war.... :sniper:
Clinton? Seriously? He was not all bad, but I don't see him as a huge peacemaker, other than in Northern Ireland. He also bombed more countries than Bush did.

Surely you would agree that Franklin D Roosevelt was a better president?

Ok then, go to sleep. I'm claiming precisely that. Bush is neither an idiot, nor a warmonger. Bill Clinton's little wars weren't forced upon him, they were by choice. Don't bless Kosovo and condemn Iraq merely because one was started by a liberal and the other by a conservative.
Clinton is not a liberal and Bush is not a conservative. You must have meant to say Democrat and Republican.

Since you obviously are under the illusion that the destruction of the indiginouse culture in favor of the US is a worthy cause. Americans apparently truly are the enemy of all people around the globe.
Does this "logic" extend to WWII also? With American intervention and occupation you would probably be living in either Nazi Deutschland (and I would live in a colony of it) or the German Oblast of the USSR. Where you would have no right to post these things.

Back to Iran, keep in mind that these elections, valid or not, were not terribly consequential. Iran is ruled almost entirely by an unelected council of conservative elders.

I wasn't aware that the Iranians were suffering in any way. Other then not beeing flooded with pro-American propaganda.
Sounds like we've got another case of being blinded by anti-Americanism. Here are some relevant links from Amnesty; maybe you've heard of them?

General Report on Iran (http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/irn-summary-eng)

Scores of political prisoners, including prisoners of conscience, continued to serve prison sentences imposed following unfair trials in previous years. Scores more were arrested in 2004, many in connection with press articles or publications both in print and on the Internet which were alleged to “endanger national security” or defame senior officials or religious precepts. Many of the families of those arrested also faced intimidation.

Independent human rights defenders were harassed. At least two individuals died in custody and 159 people were executed, including one minor. At least two of the 36 people who were flogged reportedly died following the implementation of the punishment; no investigations were carried out into these deaths. The true number of those executed or subjected to corporal punishment was believed to be considerably higher.

http://amnesty.ie/content/view/full/1895
http://amnesty.ie/content/view/full/2606
http://amnesty.ie/content/view/full/2793
http://amnesty.ie/content/view/full/2865

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE130132003

For most Americans, just watching Question Time gives the non-UK person the idea that there is extreme turmoil.

I usually watch it because the insults are so well executed.

Question Time is great! It is a form of entertainment for us, we love to see our politicians squirm and under pressure, its like a form of public torture lol!

Our media are very good at criticsing anything the government does, it is not that the government is in turnmoil, it is just that the media make it look like it is because that makes a story!

I think the fact that so many views can be portrayed in the British system of democracy due to the unlimited amount of political parties that can be created and challenge the government (although limited, as you can only challenge the government in the houses of parliament if you have a seat) is great, it means that the public is truly represented and all views are portrayed, perhaps a problem in the States with the very simply Republican or Democratic, choice of 2!? lol!

So, the Br. Government is not in turmoil as such, it is portayed to be by BBC News to makes it look like BBC News is so good in comparison to the government, especially after the Hutton Report!

I think Britain still suffers from extortionatly high prices in london, i mean you get ripped of left, right and centre, which is ridiculous for Tourists and brits, and I think the British can be a bit old fashioned and conservative, perhaps not embracing new things as well as the US or Europe.

i still think, our culture is much closer to the US than Europe though, I mean after all, Americans are Brits pretty much! lol! I think Britain should pull out of Europe and become the 52nd State of the USA, however there are probs some Americans (and Brits!) that would reject to this. Oh well...

Graham Harvey

Well, I can't speak for everyone not American, but often people find America's double-standards and helping dictatorships to be a little annoying… plus the arrogance America often displays about itself.

And no, I'm not anti-American or whatever. I'm merely pointing out the bad things about America. I could reel off a list of the good things, if you really wanted me to.

1. Every country has displayed a little arrogance.

2. Please do, seeming very few people on this website can

Fighting in there is important. Who wants to fight here..!?! Hero... It's important to capture ... the guy... whoever did 9/11. Important that. As long as we are united to have.. is that mission is completed!

And it really was a good speech.
*should be considered as streaking*

Question Time is great! It is a form of entertainment for us, we love to see our politicians squirm and under pressure, its like a form of public torture lol!

Our media are very good at criticsing anything the government does, it is not that the government is in turnmoil, it is just that the media make it look like it is because that makes a story!

I think the fact that so many views can be portrayed in the British system of democracy due to the unlimited amount of political parties that can be created and challenge the government (although limited, as you can only challenge the government in the houses of parliament if you have a seat) is great, it means that the public is truly represented and all views are portrayed, perhaps a problem in the States with the very simply Republican or Democratic, choice of 2!? lol!

So, the Br. Government is not in turmoil as such, it is portayed to be by BBC News to makes it look like BBC News is so good in comparison to the government, especially after the Hutton Report!

I think Britain still suffers from extortionatly high prices in london, i mean you get ripped of left, right and centre, which is ridiculous for Tourists and brits, and I think the British can be a bit old fashioned and conservative, perhaps not embracing new things as well as the US or Europe.

i still think, our culture is much closer to the US than Europe though, I mean after all, Americans are Brits pretty much! lol! I think Britain should pull out of Europe and become the 52nd State of the USA, however there are probs some Americans (and Brits!) that would reject to this. Oh well...

Graham Harvey

Well, if you take the view that only super-large powers will be truly able to do anything in the coming century, I would much prefer being a US state than an EU state. We do have similar cultures, and we've even got the same language. Problem is convincing people that such a union is actually necessary (Which to be fair is still a few years off, maybe decades), nevermind beneficial.

Gotta point out that the US system of governance does allow for more than 2 parties, it's just hard for them to break in - like here, your only real choices are the Tories or Labour, it's just that our third choice is the Lib Dems, who are stronger than any US third party.

Volkswagen. And more to the point: the beetle
Ah, one of the more persistant myths.

It is, isnt't it? Lucky we have you here to blast it all to oblivion.

I'm calling it the Yellow Left for a reason. Bunch of f***ing pussies, imo... at least on the definition of torture.
Frangland, go skrew yourself, you prejudiced f***! You are clearly a member of the Green Right. Green = envious :gundge: Are you too "yellow" to post on a thread with people that you KNOW aren't dumbasses like you?

ut oh did I say something reasonable and kill the thread?
I dont know if you killed the thread...but you defitenely killed my nation (OD) :mp5:...or someone else did.

oh well I dont mind really.
out with the Old...In with the Brand New :D

I dont know if you killed the thread...but you defitenely killed my nation (OD) :mp5:...or someone else did.

oh well I dont mind really.
out with the Old...In with the Brand New :D


I dunno how I coudl possible make your nation OD but hey I'll take thecredit if you wanna give it *pats self on back*

I dunno how I coudl possible make your nation OD but hey I'll take thecredit if you wanna give it *pats self on back*how could you...haw dared you???

Osama-Wan-Kenobi would never bothered, to tell the truth about your father

...Sumamba, I am your father.

how could you...haw dared you???

Osama-Wan-Kenobi would never bothered, to tell the truth about your father

...Sumamba, I am your father.

Then I dislike you because you left my mother and me hanging when I was just barely born. *shoves a light-saber thru your heart*

Then I dislike you because you left my mother and me hanging when I was just barely born. *shoves a light-saber thru your heart*

LOL...thats not a light saber...this is a light saber!

(Mine is bigger than yours) :D

http://www.lswproject.com/images/making_of_flying_man_1.gif

Like all the people in Sudan you saved? .. Or didn't because Sudan doesn't have many natural resources, just people.

Talisman Energy of Canada seems to like Sudan's oil just fine. Not to mention their buddies in Khartoum help out by ethnically cleans...err, "securing" areas for them to drill in. No blood for Canadian oil! Stop the Canada-via-third party war machine.

SOC, keep up the good work brother. America does support you.

Hold on ... this might take a moment.

[ Stands, pulls self into position of attention ... salutes ]

From one veteran to another. Good job, bro. Damned ... good ... job! :)SOC
Thanks for your service. Rest assured that some of us in here are able to peel back the liberal bias and get to the key facts..
SOC, keep up the good work brother. America does support you.SOC is not the writer of the letter...he just copy-pasted-it...I received a copy of that chain-letter last year... only 2 things have been edited since then...(ex "mostly in vacation" was added)

the only way for him to be who all bushites think he is...is for him to be the originator of that chain-letter.

which is possible...there is 0.001% of him being for real.

SOC are you there?
please tell me I am wrong. ;)

It's out and out slander that the American left hates this country. If defending the Constitution and working to improve the lives of the people of this country treason, well then I guess you'll have to hang me. Did FDR hate America? What about John Kennedy? The left is realistic about the problems America faces because we want to make this country a better place.

Sorry - what's to be proud of again?

Here, here. Sit down, shut up, and let the real men handle things for you so you can bitch about everything while sipping your latte at Starbucks reading your books about queer theory.