NationStates Jolt Archive

A theme that I have often noticed on this forum is Americans talking about pre-colonial history as though it had no effect on the formation or development of the U.S nation. It's almost as though some people in the U.S believe that their history only began on the 4th of July 1776.
To clarify, a recent example in another thread was someone from the U.S talking about how Europe as it is today would not exist if the Roman empire hadn't existed. As the United States was founded by Europeans many centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire, surely it would have occured to the author that their own country would not exist in it's current form without European factors such as the Roman empire.
Could the U.S users of these message boards point to factors which could have led to viewpoints such as this being formed?

A theme that I have often noticed on this forum is Americans talking about pre-colonial history as though it had no effect on the formation or development of the U.S nation. It's almost as though some people in the U.S believe that their history only began on the 4th of July 1776.
To clarify, a recent example in another thread was someone from the U.S talking about how Europe as it is today would not exist if the Roman empire hadn't existed. As the United States was founded by Europeans many centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire, surely it would have occured to the author that their own country would not exist in it's current form without European factors such as the Roman empire.
Could the U.S users of these message boards point to factors which could have led to viewpoints such as this being formed?

Wait, how does simply saying "Europe as it is today would not exist if the Roman Empire hadn't" mean that the person saying it - let alone Americans in general - "believe that their history only began on the 4th of July 1776?"

Well I can only speak for myself, but there is no argument that can really be made to deny what you're saying. After all, America was founded by Europeans. People who's families have been in America for a long time of course can trace their roots back to Europe. There is no denying it. So for the Americans who say otherwise, I dunno, guess maybe they don't know as much as they think or are just being obtuse. :confused:

A theme that I have often noticed on this forum is Americans talking about pre-colonial history as though it had no effect on the formation or development of the U.S nation. It's almost as though some people in the U.S believe that their history only began on the 4th of July 1776.
To clarify, a recent example in another thread was someone from the U.S talking about how Europe as it is today would not exist if the Roman empire hadn't existed. As the United States was founded by Europeans many centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire, surely it would have occured to the author that their own country would not exist in it's current form without European factors such as the Roman empire.
Could the U.S users of these message boards point to factors which could have led to viewpoints such as this being formed?

We're arrogant bastards who are above everything else, even reason, that's why.

A theme that I have often noticed on this forum is Americans talking about pre-colonial history as though it had no effect on the formation or development of the U.S nation. It's almost as though some people in the U.S believe that their history only began on the 4th of July 1776.
To clarify, a recent example in another thread was someone from the U.S talking about how Europe as it is today would not exist if the Roman empire hadn't existed. As the United States was founded by Europeans many centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire, surely it would have occured to the author that their own country would not exist in it's current form without European factors such as the Roman empire.
Could the U.S users of these message boards point to factors which could have led to viewpoints such as this being formed?
It's called "ignorance" and "lack of common sense/logic". I'm surprised every day that so many "educated" people lack the ability to follow the "cause and effect" forces at work in history.

A theme that I have often noticed on this forum is Americans talking about pre-colonial history as though it had no effect on the formation or development of the U.S nation. It's almost as though some people in the U.S believe that their history only began on the 4th of July 1776.
To clarify, a recent example in another thread was someone from the U.S talking about how Europe as it is today would not exist if the Roman empire hadn't existed. As the United States was founded by Europeans many centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire, surely it would have occured to the author that their own country would not exist in it's current form without European factors such as the Roman empire.
Could the U.S users of these message boards point to factors which could have led to viewpoints such as this being formed?

I've read this post three times and am still not clear what you want. Could you restate this? Of course US history began long before the 4th of July 1776, I haven't read an American poster who has said otherwise.
Can you give some examples of US posters saying otherwise or thinking otherwise. I would think that the poster you did refer to was discussing Europe and not the US so he/she referenced Rome's influence on Europe and not the US. But I haven't read that thread so I couldn't say for sure.
I would say Rome has heavily influenced the US, hell, look at the architecture of Washington D.C.

We're arrogant bastards who are above everything else, even reason, that's why.

(Correction...you forgot the idiotic accent)

Wer ha(high) 'n mahty basturds 'n we ain't got no brains er scoolin'

Der ya stoopid eropeeins

(Correction...you forgot the idiotic accent)

Wer ha(high) 'n mahty basturds 'n we ain't got no brains er scoolin'

Der ya stoopid eropeeins

We ain't ercustummed wit book lernin n fency numbahs n tecnamologally...


That good?

Wait, how does simply saying "Europe as it is today would not exist if the Roman Empire hadn't" mean that the person saying it - let alone Americans in general - "believe that their history only began on the 4th of July 1776?"

I pose this question to the lemmings who are now joining in on the opportunity to call Americans ignorant and stupid.

Maybe it's my American ignorance that's not allowing me to see the logical connection between the 'example' quote and the 'conclusion.'

You're lucky if you know Americans who know their history as far back at 1776. Most Americans I know barely know the history of their own lifetimes, and have only the barest of knowledge of events even a hundred years back. Sadly, various surveys seem to back this statement. When almost half of people asked can't identify the decade in which the civil war took place, it's obvious that Americans are not much for the past.

You're lucky if you know Americans who know their history as far back at 1776. Most Americans I know barely know the history of their own lifetimes, and have only the barest of knowledge of events even a hundred years back. Sadly, various surveys seem to back this statement. When almost half of people asked can't identify the decade in which the civil war took place, it's obvious that Americans are not much for the past.
We don't like the past, it's not as happy seeming as the future.

But seriously, I love history, and I don't totally get the link between the roman empire bit and Americans not knowing their history beyond 1776. I'm mildly confused personally.

Oh, and n00Bs, let's be civil on these forums. I'm looking at you Barlibgil and Gambloshia. That's almost flame-baiting.

We don't like the past, it's not as happy seeming as the future.

But seriously, I love history, and I don't totally get the link between the roman empire bit and Americans not knowing their history beyond 1776. I'm mildly confused personally.

Oh, and n00Bs, let's be civil on these forums. I'm looking at you Barlibgil and Gambloshia. That's almost flame-baiting.

Sorry, didn't think I would offend anyone (I don't usually think my decisions through, but I think that's normal for a 13 year old guy). Sorry if I did offend you.

Was settled in 1639... that's when I count our local history as starting.

However, since my family only got to the US in 1970...

Sorry, didn't think I would offend anyone (I don't usually think my decisions through, but I think that's normal for a 13 year old guy). Sorry if I did offend you.
No, you're not offending me in the slightest, just giving etiquette tips to maximize your forum lifespan in the face of the modly wrath.

(I've only survived this long by being like a bird, all twitchy and crazy)

No, you're not offending me in the slightest, just giving etiquette tips to maximize your forum lifespan in the face of the modly wrath.

(I've only survived this long by being like a bird, all twitchy and crazy)

Well, I don't want my forum life to be like that. But thanks for the advice. I'll have to remember, speak mind, but don't blatantly flamebait.

Is the question "why don't more Americans on this forum recognize the effect of pre-colonial history on the formation or development of the U.S nation"?

Not trying to speak for you, I'm not clear on what you're asking.

A theme that I have often noticed on this forum is Americans talking about pre-colonial history as though it had no effect on the formation or development of the U.S nation. It's almost as though some people in the U.S believe that their history only began on the 4th of July 1776.
To clarify, a recent example in another thread was someone from the U.S talking about how Europe as it is today would not exist if the Roman empire hadn't existed. As the United States was founded by Europeans many centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire, surely it would have occured to the author that their own country would not exist in it's current form without European factors such as the Roman empire.
Could the U.S users of these message boards point to factors which could have led to viewpoints such as this being formed?

I think it's a matter of "Point of Deviation". July 4, 1776 is the point at which the Colonies stopped being "British" in a very real sense, and stated what had been growing for a long time-that they were autonomous in fact, and ready to fight to make that autonomy recognized in Law.

English and European historical forces created the "American" in a very real sense-from the Magna Carta, through the Instrument of Government, and even good old "English Common Law" (upon which the 1789 constitution was written), European history, culture (especially the Age of Reason) and ideas formed the moral and ethical backbone of the American Revolution, and the base concepts of our form of government.

BUT...

The States diverged from European history with the beginning of the Revolution. It's not that Americans discount that pre-revolutionary colonial history, as much as a subtle recognition that while our ancestors were part of it, they weren't the main actors in it until the declaration of independence.

Americans fought in King William's war, but it wasn't theirs-it was fought between the monarchs of France and England, on what would become American Soil, but over French and English priorities to the general benefit of the "Home countries" in Europe.

There is no simple one size fits all answer to this question.

There are many reasons:

Ignorance is a factor. Some of it's self induced; while others is the system. For example; there are many that think the damn pilgrims are what we sprang from.

Some lack of Europe knowledge came from the immigrants themselves. My Granddad was a Pole. When he hit these shores; he decided that Polish would no longer be spoken. We are americans now and we will live as americans. Cultural knowledge dies that way.

Some of it's the school system. European history is an optional class in many schools.

Ahh well.......

I think it's a matter of "Point of Deviation". July 4, 1776 is the point at which the Colonies stopped being "British" in a very real sense, and stated what had been growing for a long time-that they were autonomous in fact, and ready to fight to make that autonomy recognized in Law.

English and European historical forces created the "American" in a very real sense-from the Magna Carta, through the Instrument of Government, and even good old "English Common Law" (upon which the 1789 constitution was written), European history, culture (especially the Age of Reason) and ideas formed the moral and ethical backbone of the American Revolution, and the base concepts of our form of government.

BUT...

The States diverged from European history with the beginning of the Revolution. It's not that Americans discount that pre-revolutionary colonial history, as much as a subtle recognition that while our ancestors were part of it, they weren't the main actors in it until the declaration of independence.

Americans fought in King William's war, but it wasn't theirs-it was fought between the monarchs of France and England, on what would become American Soil, but over French and English priorities to the general benefit of the "Home countries" in Europe.

Nice way to make a point. Was going to post but this sums up what I think also.

I think it's a matter of "Point of Deviation". July 4, 1776 is the point at which the Colonies stopped being "British" in a very real sense, and stated what had been growing for a long time-that they were autonomous in fact, and ready to fight to make that autonomy recognized in Law.

English and European historical forces created the "American" in a very real sense-from the Magna Carta, through the Instrument of Government, and even good old "English Common Law" (upon which the 1789 constitution was written), European history, culture (especially the Age of Reason) and ideas formed the moral and ethical backbone of the American Revolution, and the base concepts of our form of government.

BUT...

The States diverged from European history with the beginning of the Revolution. It's not that Americans discount that pre-revolutionary colonial history, as much as a subtle recognition that while our ancestors were part of it, they weren't the main actors in it until the declaration of independence.

Americans fought in King William's war, but it wasn't theirs-it was fought between the monarchs of France and England, on what would become American Soil, but over French and English priorities to the general benefit of the "Home countries" in Europe.

Bravo with knowing your history.

According to my history teacher, the American nation stopped being really 'british' around 1830, when most of the Americans who had been around during the revolution and beforehand died off. While I agree that 1776 was an integral part of the changeover from Europe to America, that was only the beginning.

In general, I beleive that most americans don't really tihnk that pre-1776 history applies that much to us today, e.g. the French and Indian War, the Jamestown burning, and all that doesn't really matter to anyone.

I blame the History Channel. Beofre you Tv nuts blast me for it, I think that the History Channel has done everyting in it's power ot make sure that the majority of Americans beleive that World War II and everything afterward is the most important part of history in the US, nevermind WWI or 1812, or the Barbary Coast or the Civil War or all that rot.

And, while I am an American, I don't hesitate to say that most of us are stupid, ignorant, and lacking in basic knowledge about our history. I blame MTV.

Wow, no one can answer my questions. Oh well, fall over yourselves trying to explain AMERICAN ignorance when the thread starter has only cited a vague example and come to an illogical conclusion. I may as well start a thread like "Europeans are idiots" with nothing to back it up, because the thread starter has given nothing to back his assertions (or implications) of American ignorance.

We're arrogant bastards who are above everything else, even reason, that's why.


Nail on the head. Tis why I don't care for my country all that much. It seems to be full of people who WON'T think for themselves.

Sheep I tell you!

I don't beleive the Narcassism is saying that Americans are stupid.. just asking for a clarification on a trend they've seen.
As for Americans being idiots, a lot of people I've met are just plain stupid or ignorant. (of course, we aren't all morons). if you want examples I'd be happy to give them to you.

Well this "trend" isn't something I've noticed much. The trend of - when discussing pre-colonial US history - to assume it had no effect on the formation of the US as a nation? How often does pre-colonial US history get discussed on these forums anyway? I've never seen anyone suggest that American history began with in 1776.

If people are mistaken it's because the United States, as a Nation, began then. Perhaps the original poster himself was mistaken in his assumptions.

A theme that I have often noticed on this forum is Americans talking about pre-colonial history as though it had no effect on the formation or development of the U.S nation. It's almost as though some people in the U.S believe that their history only began on the 4th of July 1776.
To clarify, a recent example in another thread was someone from the U.S talking about how Europe as it is today would not exist if the Roman empire hadn't existed. As the United States was founded by Europeans many centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire, surely it would have occured to the author that their own country would not exist in it's current form without European factors such as the Roman empire.
Could the U.S users of these message boards point to factors which could have led to viewpoints such as this being formed?

I think your view of us is distorted. Our beliefs of an independent nation did not begin untill the acts and events that begain in the mid 1770s. Even then we didn't really have the defined represenatative republic untill the abolishment of the articles of the confederation and creation of the US Constition. Our national make up, behaviors, regional development, and cultural idealisms didn't begin at that time. It began due as far early as when colonist first set foot.

This may give northrners a chance to knock southerners, since I've lived in the south most of my life. But I can convince half the people I meet that I'm a genius just by knowing what decade the Civil War started.
I've met a lot of people who seem really smart, but would have to take a guess when the War of 1812 was.
And that's only American history. The Russian Revelution? Crap, most of them don't know there was such a thing. This includes college students. How in the hell did these folks graduate high school not knowing these things?
Most college students couldn't tell you what the Reformation was, unless they were history majors. Argh!

Wow, no one can answer my questions. Oh well, fall over yourselves trying to explain AMERICAN ignorance when the thread starter has only cited a vague example and come to an illogical conclusion. I may as well start a thread like "Europeans are idiots" with nothing to back it up, because the thread starter has given nothing to back his assertions (or implications) of American ignorance.


I think what amazed the OP was the fact that Americans on the whole don't identify with their colonial past.
When asked about "their" history, they will naturally assume that you are talking about the history of the USA from 1776 on, whereas in European eyes, American history started in 1492. And even that isn't correct as it doesn't take the history of Native Americans into account.

Europeans see the Americas as having the same history as Europe before 1492, they assume that what influenced Europe up to that point influenced America as well. And I dare say they are not mistaken.
This doesn't really insinuate that Americans are stupid, ignorant and don't know about their past (I met a few who really didn't, but I don't know about the general population over there), it's just a difference in perspective that requires explanation.

Comedy American moment... I was in the city of Durham (in the UK), and heard a middle aged American come out with ''....it's very quaint. They must have named it after our Durham'

WALKING, TALKING STEREOTYPE.

Comedy American moment... I was in the city of Durham (in the UK), and heard a middle aged American come out with ''....it's very quaint. They must have named it after our Durham'

WALKING, TALKING STEREOTYPE.

*lol... Great. But I can top that.
I grew up in Germany, in a small southern town that at some point had more US soldiers than regular inhabitants. So, inevitably, you get to meet a few on a night out.
I was talking to one individual there who spent the entire evening trying to convince me that Europeans are at heart jealous of the USA in every concievable way.
Finally he came up with the following statement : "After all, you Germans went and built this castle Neuschwanstein after you saw how beautiful Disneyland is"
And no, he wasn't joking. He was drunk, but serious. I have to admit that this remark made me kind of prejudiced of Americans on the whole...

American history, and British history are so interwoven, that how anyone could deny the impact of each on the other is lunacy.
Almost as lunatic as actually thinking that Americans in general "refuse to beleive/acknowledge pre- colonial history."

This thread was pretty much anti-american flamebait when it started.

Perhaps I should make a thread entitled "When will Britian realize they are no longer important in world events", or something equally as stupid?

At any rate, once again, the poster is generalizing about Americans, and honestly, its over such a trivial matter.
Pre-colonial American History is the founding of a nation, it basically began when the first man to walk upright, decided to stay and build a permanent residence in north America.

I can relate to both sides of the lake on this one. I'm a history buff, whether it's american, european, or whatever. Hell, I live in california, and I know what type of yuppie scum is touring through your home towns making retarded comments. I live with these people all the time (kinda makes you want to start the genocide of all the idiots.) I know that a major difference is the fact that americans don't really hold too well to the concept of a nations traditions. Hell, there was an 86 yr old man yanked around at an airport for 3 hours because the idiots searching him didn't know what to make of his Medal of Honour (the U.S. highest military award) how pathetic is that?!?! and he was 86. This might all be in part to the fact that america has been a melting pot that is searching for all the roots outside of the U.S. nowadays. It's really sad at the ignorance floating around here. Dang, kinda makes me want to move away. :headbang:

A theme that I have often noticed on this forum is Americans talking about pre-colonial history as though it had no effect on the formation or development of the U.S nation. It's almost as though some people in the U.S believe that their history only began on the 4th of July 1776.
To clarify, a recent example in another thread was someone from the U.S talking about how Europe as it is today would not exist if the Roman empire hadn't existed. As the United States was founded by Europeans many centuries after the fall of the Roman Empire, surely it would have occured to the author that their own country would not exist in it's current form without European factors such as the Roman empire.
Could the U.S users of these message boards point to factors which could have led to viewpoints such as this being formed?

Please rephrase that as "some Americans".

A lot of us "Americans" are well aware of history. Including historical and philosophical precedents to the ideas embodied by the formation of our nation. So please, don't take yourself so seriously, and don't take the occasional ignorant comment so seriously - and please don't take that individual ignorant comment to mean all Americans.

I think what amazed the OP was the fact that Americans on the whole don't identify with their colonial past.
When asked about "their" history, they will naturally assume that you are talking about the history of the USA from 1776 on, whereas in European eyes, American history started in 1492. And even that isn't correct as it doesn't take the history of Native Americans into account.


Right well if neither perspective is correct or accurate, why does only the Americans' require explanation?


Europeans see the Americas as having the same history as Europe before 1492, they assume that what influenced Europe up to that point influenced America as well. And I dare say they are not mistaken.


Well, Europe didn't branch off at one point, we did. If you look at history as a branching tree, they are closer to the root than we are simply because we've not been Europeans for a few hundred years. And you can hardly deny the world-shattering societal impact of American culture, unless you're purposefully not looking at the McDonald's a few blocks away from your home. :D