NationStates Jolt Archive

As much as I hated them during my school years and as much as I despise them even today sometimes, I would say it was the Romans.

In conquering almost all of Europe, they provided a cultural unity that is still visible today, especially in Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, where even the language is a modern form of Latin.
They inspired our modern political systems, they gave us our alphabet, they helped Christianity to spread (despite the prosecution of Christians, the faith wouldn't have spread half as far half as fast if it hadn't been for the unity of the Empire), their military strategies are still the basis for today's military, they built roads that in some cases are still in use today (not for cars, though :)) and they inspired artists and writers throughout the centuries.
Even though a great number of Roman achievements got lost during the dark ages ( the aquaeducts were no longer in use, the Roman way of constructing towns and cities was lost, and Roman books were burned by the church) enough survived to become model during the Renaissance, the Enlightenment and the European Classical period.
Arts, literature, science, architecture, philosophy and political science were rediscovered, admired and copied.

We can like them or hate them, but the Romans influenced our society like no other culture.

Hmm, well in the social environment I'd have to say the Renaissance.

Ancient Greece

Either the Romans or Greeks, the Greeks greatly infulenced the Romans though..


I dare say the Arabs actually, considering how much knowledge was passed on to the Europeans during the Crusades.

It's different depending on discipline. In Western political thought, NOTHING surpasses the Enlightenment. In sciences and arts, they're probably most linked by Roman (and thus Greek) traditions, especially if you realize that the Renaissance was a return to those periods.

I would say the Enlightenment, especially Rousseau, Smith and Voltaire. Many of their ideas were influenced by the Greeks.

I say the Greeks. Or the British Empire.

Ancient Greece
Ditto

I would say the modern age and Western civilization is the most influential for the way of thinking of Western society today.

Romans without question, most of Europe owes them their ass (plus just about everything else.) While the Greeks were their primary influence, the Romans still take the cake because they put it to better effect over larger territory and their influence is still directly felt today.

Both Greeks and Romans!

How can you hate the Romans? They were the greatest. I'd like to see any other city take over the world.(And by world I mean ancient world)

The Goa'uld.

LOL at the goa'uld. What about the Asgard?

I say a combination of Rome and Greece... Britain not so much, because the industrial age was a bit of an inevitability, but for introducing it first, credit has to be given.

That's right. Who influenced the Greeks ? :p

Romans without question, most of Europe owes them their ass (plus just about everything else.) While the Greeks were their primary influence, the Romans still take the cake because they put it to better effect over larger territory and their influence is still directly felt today.


Considering you're in America, surely that means you owe them your ass as well?

The Middle ages. That's pretty much when modern states/languages/cities and civil organizations started emerging. Universities were born, monasteries built all across Europe, trades routes opened across Asia (the Silk Road). These would be the base of our modern intellectual centers. Military pressure between kingdoms (and between zones of influence: Christian world, Muslim world) would also lead to modern armies, and European exploration of the world. Muslims would spread their religion from Morocco to Indonesia, mixing all food traditions, importing foreign fruits (oranges, apples)

Please take note that since the Middle Ages were so HARD on Great Britain --and I mean hard--, that we have an overly negative view of this period. But in the rest of the world, including Europe, things weren't so bad. Ireland was a major intellectual center, having contacts with Byzantium. Arab Spain had a brilliant civilization, doing irrigation works and building important cities. Some parts of France and Germany had some wealthy kingdoms as early as year 800. While in the UK, things started to look better only after year 1066. :D There hadn't been a single brick building in the UK for more than 500 years... yes it was THAT bad!!!

Muslim intellectuals started merging three scientific cultures (hindu mathematics, greek philosophy and medicine, persian astronomy), while Christian values in Europe led to intense spiritual life, and the building of stunningly beautiful cathedrals. By the way, Christian culture started going sour DURING the early Renaissance: conquistadors, the inquisition, expulsion of Jews, etc.

That's right. Who influenced the Greeks ? :p

Zeus! Everyone knows that, you barbarian!

I credit the Greeks. They started it all by influencing the Romans who in turn conquered most of Europe which in turn led to the various evolutions of politics and sciences of the next 1.5 thousand years.

Most, the Greeks for sure. Democracy for one, but there are plenty more.

LOL at the goa'uld. What about the Asgard?
Meh. The Asgard had relatively little impact on Earth culture - their presence was mostly a secret. The Goa'uld posed as gods basically everywhere.

Either the Romans or Greeks, the Greeks greatly infulenced the Romans though..


I dare say the Arabs actually, considering how much knowledge was passed on to the Europeans during the Crusades.

The Arabs did pass on a lot of their culture (ie. numbers), but the Ancient Greeks had a powerful influence on the Middle Eastern world as well.

The Arabs did pass on a lot of their culture (ie. numbers), but the Ancient Greeks had a powerful influence on the Middle Eastern world as well.
The Arabs imported the idea of Zero from India, through commercial and cultural contacts. Arab states were extremely good at concentrating knowledge, mixing scientific theories from various origins, and developing new ideas.
http://www.mediatinker.com/whirl/zero/zero.html

Without the Arabs (mostly those living in Arab Spain, northern India/Moguls, Persia/Baghdad), a lot of knowledge in Astronomy, Medicine and philisophy would have been lost... and some ideas wouldn't have emerged. Example: Avicenne, the world's best doctor (at the time), and about a dozen of Persian astronomers (our most important stars, such as Benared and Betelgeuse, have Arab names).

The Arabs imported the idea of Zero from India, through commercial and cultural contacts. Arab states were extremely good at concentrating knowledge, mixing scientific theories from various origins, and developing new ideas.
http://www.mediatinker.com/whirl/zero/zero.html

Without the Arabs (mostly those living in Arab Spain, northern India/Moguls, Persia/Baghdad), a lot of knowledge in Astronomy, Medicine and philisophy would have been lost... and some ideas wouldn't have emerged. Example: Avicenne, the world's best doctor (at the time), and about a dozen of Persian astronomers (our most important stars, such as Benared and Betelgeuse, have Arab names).

Correct, but without the influence of the Ancient Greeks the Arabs wouldn't have had the information to preserve in the first place.

King James...


I'm actually a bit of a history buff, and just now, asked myself, what makes the west, the west. How and why is it different, what are it's defining characteristics.

I say, the King James Bible. Without it, the Protestants wouldn't have stood up and chanced a fight and without them the Catholics wouldn't have developed like they did. Without the religious changes in the people, being able to read scripture themselves without a holy man or religious middleman between them and the word itself, the governments might never have left feudalism and monarchy. Without the Bible being translated into everyman's language, free for one and all to inspire as it would, the ideas and confidence to believe in something bigger than your own government may never have inspired people to make the West what it is today.

So, yes, King James and the King James Bible in particular, is what separates and identifies the west as different than the East.


Just IMO anyway.

I say, the King James Bible. Without it, the portestants wouldn't have stood a chancen and without them the catholics wouldn't have developed like they did.
This is SO anglo-centric.
The BIGGEST part of the Reformation happened elsewhere in Europe, mainly in Germany and Switzerland. Luther, Calvin and all. The Bible they used was probably written in Latin and/or German.

Gutenberg was the real hero.

This is SO anglo-centric.
The BIGGEST part of the Reformation happened elsewhere in Europe, mainly in Germany and Switzerland. Luther, Calvin and all. The Bible they used was probably written in Latin and/or German.

Gutenberg was the real hero.


I never said he was first... It is what it is. The Wycliffe never got 'really' popular either. The King James version is still found all over the world today ~ what other "everyman" translations has anywhere nears such claim to fame?

Don't get me wrong; if someone wants to read a Bible for the first time, the KJ might be the last one I handed to them. But the topic here IS, what shaped Western Civilization. How now, can you argue syntax?

The Simpsons.

Don't get me wrong; if someone wants to read a Bible for the first time, the KJ might be the last one I handed to them. But the topic here IS, what shaped Western Civilization. How now, can you argue syntax?
I understand your point, which makes a lot of sense.
But the fact is that most people around the globe will want to read the bible in another language than English. And it was even more true during the Reformation: There were more Protestants speaking German than Protestants speaking English. Not to mention Sweden and the Huguenots.

In French, the most popular bibles are:
- TOB
- Semeur
- Louis Segond
I have a TOB at home because it's easier to find.

I understand your point, which makes a lot of sense.
But the fact is that most people around the globe will want to read the bible in another language than English. And it was even more true during the Reformation: There were more Protestants speaking German than Protestants speaking English. Not to mention Sweden and the Huguenots.

In French, the most popular bibles are:
- TOB
- Semeur
- Louis Segond
I have a TOB at home because it's easier to find.


Yes, I agree. My point was that King James represented a change, a government that supported and publically financed the idea printing and translation so that Everyone should be able to read the scriptures in their own language...And that this itself is a cause that created the Western World as we know it.

Yes, I agree. My point was that King James represented a change, a government that supported and publically financed the idea printing and translation so that Everyone should be able to read the scriptures in their own language...And that this itself is a cause that created the Western World as we know it.
Now your argument is complete and well explained.

And I agree with you 110%. (The +10% is because I am Protestant.)

It took Gutenberg (for the technology) and a few courageous reformers / governments to handle bibles to the ordinary men. Bibles written in English and German at first... then in dozens of other languages. It set the movement. Most people wouldn't read Latin. And the Catholic Church wanted the Bible to stay firmly in its priests' hands.

I'd have to say the Dorian and Mycenaean Greeks. Maybe the Egyptians a bit, too.

While the Renaissance, The Enlightenment, the Middle Ages and all were great an important, without the incredible base of classical history to work off of, it would've never happened. I mean, where would the Romans and everyone else be without Homer? Aristotle? Plato? Socrates? as for the Egpytians, that's my little reference to the reverence (hey, I rhyme) the Greeks had for them.

Ooh... now I feel dangerous. Maybe the Jews and Christians influenced it a lot.

I think Rome takes the cake. I was reading somewhere that some historians believed that at the end of the empire the conditions were ripe for what could have been an earlier Industrial Revolution...the time didn't come again until many centuries later. That's pretty badass for an ancient civilization.

I think Rome takes the cake. I was reading somewhere that some historians believed that at the end of the empire the conditions were ripe for what could have been an earlier Industrial Revolution
Yes, they had windmill technology and some progress was made in the use of coal. Unfortunately, they had too many available slaves and workers, so it was more convenient to hire a worker than to build something high-tech.
Had there been a bad plague epidemic around year 200, it would have triggered a change in social structure and a forced industrialization.

Europe actually took social benefit from the plague. After 1/4 of the European population had died, workers had became scarce, fields were abandoned and lots of serfs/slaves had lost their masters. When things settled, serfs had became workers, work had became much less cheap, and the European medieval caste system was crumbling. It led naturally to innovations (a better plough and the use of windmills, for example) and then industrialization.