NationStates Jolt Archive

Honestly. Does gay pride week actually make you proud to be gay? Does suddenly having a week where you go around saying "I'm proud to be gay" have any effect at all?

I know, odd/dumb question, but still...

It will help you if you think of "Proud" as "Not being ashamed of who you are" and "Not afraid" "Not a second class citizen." "Will not hide."

Straight, not narrow.

A tremendous suggestion. All of those work better than "pride". Pride is not a good thing. The world needs less of it, not more.

Ann Coulter is a proud American. Her pride fuels her.

DOWN WITH PRIDE!

Agree with two posters/posts above me.

EDIT: Nevermind, Ann Coulter guy beat me, the two posts above him

A tremendous suggestion. All of those work better than "pride". Pride is not a good thing. The world needs less of it, not more.
Well, Gay "Not Ashamed of Who You Are" Week doesn't quite have the same ring, though.

Agree with two posters/posts above me.

EDIT: Nevermind, Ann Coulter guy beat me, the two posts above him
She are female. (She has that in her signature that way)

So.. if pride is bad, then that would mean there can be a Gay Humility Week?

*ponders*

EDIT: On a side note, does this mean that Gay Pride is Straight Humility? >.>

An "It's OK to be gay" week would be better, in my opinion. Especially since it could gather much more support from the straight population.

I'd agree with what everyone has pretty much said thus far; not to be ashamed.

Pride seems more like "I'm better than you!". Which isn't a good mentality.

An "It's OK to be gay" week would be better, in my opinion. Especially since it could gather much more support from the straight population.
The straight population just needs to mature (though if they would there wouldn't be a need for a Gay Pride Week...) Someone being proud of who they are doesn't take anything away from anyone else. It's not about you*, and not everything has to be.


*'you' not meaning you specificly, but a rhetorical 'you.'

ok, so what about a National/International "Free to be..." week. one where you can be not ashamed of being Gay/Straight/Black/White/Cherokee/Jew/whatever Religion/Nationality...

that way, those of a minority won't feel left out, and those of the majority won't feel pressured to accepting something they are not ready to accept.

ok, so what about a National/International "Free to be..." week. one where you can be not ashamed of being Gay/Straight/Black/White/Cherokee/Jew/whatever Religion/Nationality...

that way, those of a minority won't feel left out, and those of the majority won't feel pressured to accepting something they are not ready to accept.

I'd agree. But people shouldn't be ashamed of who they are to begin with.

The straight population just needs to mature (though if they would there wouldn't be a need for a Gay Pride Week...) Someone being proud of who they are doesn't take anything away from anyone else. It's not about you*, and not everything has to be.


*'you' not meaning you specificly, but a rhetorical 'you.'

We need to mature?

You're the ones who are marching around in the streets saying "hey everybody! I enjoy sex with people of my own gender".

That's nothing to be proud about.

Why not have a parade for every sexual deviancy?

We could have the ATM gang bang parade, the golden shower parade, perhaps the I love blumpkins parade.

Absurd!

mattr0cka

I'd agree. But people shouldn't be ashamed of who they are to begin with.which is why I use "Free to be..." that way it displays the wonders of Diversity as apposed to challanging traditions and roles that can really make some people upset. Symnatics I know, but sometimes making it sound nice does help.

The straight population just needs to mature (though if they would there wouldn't be a need for a Gay Pride Week...) Someone being proud of who they are doesn't take anything away from anyone else. It's not about you*, and not everything has to be.


*'you' not meaning you specificly, but a rhetorical 'you.'I find it funny that people say "the government shouldn't be allowed into the bedrooms" yet people still take what is supposed to be in the bedroom (or at least inside the home) and parade it out in the streets and demand that no one be offended.

Why not have a parade for every sexual deviancy?

Remember not to feed the trolls guys...





Unless it's really fun!

ok, so what about a National/International "Free to be..." week. one where you can be not ashamed of being Gay/Straight/Black/White/Cherokee/Jew/whatever Religion/Nationality...

that way, those of a minority won't feel left out, and those of the majority won't feel pressured to accepting something they are not ready to accept.
For the things that people 'are not ready to accept' (I would argue whether or not they majority, but thats another thing...) you could call it "All Those Dirty Fags Week" and they still would have a problem. Which really, is the problem.

Allowing someone to be who they are doesn't require you to accept anything, really. Accepting that people are homosexual doesn't require anyone to have gay sex.

I find it funny that people say "the government shouldn't be allowed into the bedrooms" yet people still take what is supposed to be in the bedroom (or at least inside the home) and parade it out in the streets and demand that no one be offended.

The point of it is to be offensive to make up for the religious freaks and ignoramuses we gotta put up with for the remaining 51 weeks. :)

Remember not to feed the trolls guys...





Unless it's really fun!


I'm not troll. I'm asking a vaild question.

Homosexuality is a deviation from the norm.

There for it is a form of deviancy.

If we allow one parade of sexual deviancy, we must allow all others.

Fair is fair.

mattr0cka

that way, those of a minority won't feel left out, and those of the majority won't feel pressured to accepting something they are not ready to accept.
The majority has no problem accepting gay people. Besides, since when do a homophobic minorty have the right not to be offended?

I find it funny that people say "the government shouldn't be allowed into the bedrooms" yet people still take what is supposed to be in the bedroom (or at least inside the home) and parade it out in the streets and demand that no one be offended.
It sounds like your local gay pride parades are very explicit!

We need to mature?

You're the ones who are marching around in the streets saying "hey everybody! I enjoy sex with people of my own gender".

That's nothing to be proud about.

Why not have a parade for every sexual deviancy?

We could have the ATM gang bang parade, the golden shower parade, perhaps the I love blumpkins parade.

Absurd!

mattr0cka
Okay, first-check my starting post: Straight, not narrow.

Second, they are marching down the streets saying "I am not ashamed of who I am" and "I will not be afraid." If you'd lighten up about how other people share love it wouldn't be a problem. If people weren't beat to death for being gay, it wouldn't be a problem (how many people into 'gang bangs' or 'golden showers' face that?) So yes, I would stand by that claim.

Why does one week bother you straight people* so much? Are your own 51 weeks not enough for you? Live in our shoes for the other 51 weeks where we see you cram your sexuality down our throats, and then come back to us.

To answer the question: I like being gay 24/7, 365(6), but it's nice to have a week of visibility, and I know how important this visibility is for those who still dare not be visible at other times or at all.

*those straight people whom it bothers, of course.

Okay, first-check my starting post: Straight, not narrow.

Second, they are marching down the streets saying "I am not ashamed of who I am" and "I will not be afraid." If you'd lighten up about how other people share love it wouldn't be a problem. If people weren't beat to death for being gay, it wouldn't be a problem (how many people into 'gang bangs' or 'golden showers' face that?) So yes, I would stand by that claim.

Then why do the marches tend to focus on the "act of being gay" itself rather than the individual people?

Why instead of cross-dressing and leather do we not see more of the everyday gay in these marches?

Like a gay doctor or buisness person?

As far as lightening up, I'm fine with however anyone wants to get off.

As long it's not with a minor, deadbody or animal.

Homosexuality doesn't bother me one bit.

It's oversexed people of any kind marching down the streets, that'll get me everytime.

mattr0cka

Then why do the marches tend to focus on the "act of being gay" itself rather than the individual people?

Why instead of cross-dressing and leather do we not see more of the everyday gay in these marches?

Like a gay doctor or buisness person?

As far as lightening up, I'm fine with however anyone wants to get off.

As long it's not with a minor, deadbody or animal.

Homosexuality doesn't bother me one bit.

It's oversexed people of any kind marching down the streets, that'll get me everytime.

mattr0cka
What parades are you watching where you're getting 'the act'?

It's not a homogolous community. Some are in leather, some in dresses, some in suits. Not all of them march. I would say a lot of them just march, normal cats. They don't make the highlight reel like the guy dressed like a peacock-but what footage would you use as a tv producer?

Live in our shoes for the other 51 weeks where we see you cram your sexuality down our throats, and then come back to us.

How do straight people cram there sexuality down your throat?


mattr0cka

How do straight people cram there sexuality down your throat?


mattr0cka


You've gotta be kidding! LOL

What parades are you watching where you're getting 'the act'?

It's not a homogolous community. Some are in leather, some in dresses, some in suits. Not all of them march. I would say a lot of them just march, normal cats. They don't make the highlight reel like the guy dressed like a peacock-but what footage would you use as a tv producer?


"What parades are you watching where you're getting 'the act'?"



I'll concede the media focuses on the wierdos and not the everyday gay.

But the everyday gay needs to realize that the wierdos are screwing it up for them.

I'd like to see a gay march conducted with no silly stuff.

No trannies, post-op or pre-op, no village people, no B.S.

Just people.

I feel that would have a far more pro-found effect.

mattr0cka

How do straight people cram there sexuality down your throat?

Are you blind?

You've gotta be kidding! LOL

No I'm quite serious.

I'm curious as to what you think "cramming down your throat" is?

mattr0cka

The majority has no problem accepting gay people. Besides, since when do a homophobic minorty have the right not to be offended?since when does anyone have the right to offend anyone. rather than trying to offend, how about making that extra effort to minimize any perceved offence on any side.


It sounds like your local gay pride parades are very explicit!nah, just dredging up some old Pro Gay arguments... "keep the government out of the bedroom"

The point of it is to be offensive to make up for the religious freaks and ignoramuses we gotta put up with for the remaining 51 weeks. so you are saying, it was meant to be as offensive and confrontational as possible? ah... I see. :p

For the things that people 'are not ready to accept' (I would argue whether or not they majority, but thats another thing...) you could call it "All Those Dirty Fags Week" and they still would have a problem. Which really, is the problem.

Allowing someone to be who they are doesn't require you to accept anything, really. Accepting that people are homosexual doesn't require anyone to have gay sex.I'm using a blanket term for "things people are not ready to accept" to describe all the things people rally against. but the idea is to show that not all Muslims will strap on bombs and go on suicide missions while not all Christians will burn crosses on people's front lawns, not all Atheists are science loving freaks and not all bible thumpers are anit-science. right now, we are seeing alot of extremes and we forget that what makes America great is the compromises that are formed because everyone has a right and the freedom to persue their dreams.

How do straight people cram there sexuality down your throat?


mattr0cka
Exhibit 1 (http://www.maximonline.com/take_over/castrol/2005/castrol_to.html), Exhibit 2 (http://www.lectlaw.com/files/leg23.htm), Exhibit 3 (http://www.cnn.com/US/9810/12/wyoming.attack.03/), Exhibit 4 (http://www.cosmomag.com/), Exhibit 5 (http://www.beerhistory.com/library/holdings/beer_commercials.shtml), Exhibit 6 (http://www.atsnn.com/story/147774.html), Exhibit 7 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9133922&postcount=20)...I could go on, but you get the idea...

But the everyday gay needs to realize that the wierdos are screwing it up for them.

No, the "weirdos" aren't because, well, we don't care what you think.

I'd like to see a gay march conducted with no silly stuff.

What's "silly"?

No trannies, post-op or pre-op, no village people, no B.S.

Just people.

Nice going there, missing the whole point. Trannies, post-op or pre-op, village people are people too. :rolleyes:

I feel that would have a far more pro-found effect.

So, you're telling gay people that we should act straight to be accepted? Thanks, but no, thanks.

Firstly, does it matter what it's called, it's the message that matters. And I agree with others writing above me that it's more like a week of action, to show that "I'm not ashamed of what I am", and just to be visibal and able to walk on the streets without being afraid. Also I think it's a time for people to meet other people, just like any festival or parade. As others have mentioned before, you get 51 weeks a year, leave one to the gays!

It'd be well cool to go to a gay pride parade, but I really don't live near any cities. I really want to educate myself on the vast patchwork that is contempory society. I'd love to counsel gay people too, that'd be awesome.
I'm fully supportive of the LGB and T community and always will be.
I like to offer the hand of friendship to anyone because everyone* is a potential friend.

*excludes murderers and other major criminals (u-duh!)

btw great post "cannot think of a name"!!!

Exhibit 1 (http://www.maximonline.com/take_over/castrol/2005/castrol_to.html), Exhibit 2 (http://www.lectlaw.com/files/leg23.htm), Exhibit 3 (http://www.cnn.com/US/9810/12/wyoming.attack.03/), Exhibit 4 (http://www.cosmomag.com/), Exhibit 5 (http://www.beerhistory.com/library/holdings/beer_commercials.shtml), Exhibit 6 (http://www.atsnn.com/story/147774.html), Exhibit 7 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9133922&postcount=20)...I could go on, but you get the idea...


Hunh?

Violence doesn't count.

I mean society. Polite society doesn't approve of violence.

How is a maxim and beer commercials shoving straightness down gay peoples' throats.

mattr0cka

How do straight people cram there sexuality down your throat?


mattr0cka

Try imagining every couple you see being gay. 99.9% of the people on TV being gay.
Only gays being able to marry.
Only gays being able to adopt in most places.
Almost all advertising being directed at gays.
People having no problem with gays kissing at the mall, but screaming for security if a guy kisses a girl.
The few straight people on TV and in the movies being portrayed as clowns or villains.
Being afraid to hold hands with your girlfiend in public because someone might beat you up. Or you might lose your housing or job.
Just pretend there was such a world and see how comfortable you'd be.

btw great post "cannot think of a name"!!!
Back at ya, including this oft overlooked aspect you brought up that I'm going to highlight-
Also I think it's a time for people to meet other people, just like any festival or parade.

So obvious, yet overlooked. Especially in a community where admiting to someone you are a part of it can get you beat up or killed...

Try imagining every couple you see being gay. 99.9% of the people on TV being gay.
Only gays being able to marry.
Only gays being able to adopt in most places.
Almost all advertising being directed at gays.
People having no problem with gays kissing at the mall, but screaming for security if a guy kisses a girl.
The few straight people on TV and in the movies being portrayed as clowns or villains.
Being afraid to hold hands with your girlfiend in public because someone might beat you up. Or you might lose your housing or job.
Just pretend there was such a world and see how comfortable you'd be.

:( That's so sad. What a terrible world these poor people must leave in.

Hunh?

Violence doesn't count.

I mean society. Polite society doesn't approve of violence.

How is a maxim and beer commercials shoving straightness down gay peoples' throats.

mattr0ckaIn that case, how is a gay pride parade shoving gayness down anyones throat. At least the parade isn't everywhere all the time.

Yeah, imagine being born to a world where nearly every ad you saw included gays, imagine being born and brought up by gays, growing up only playing with gays, every teacher you have had during your life have been gays and so on and so on. I think you'd think different then.

:( That's so sad. What a terrible world these poor people must leave in.Explain which "poor people" you mean. Or I might have to question the veracity of your online name.
:confused:

Yeah, imagine being born to a world where nearly every ad you saw included gays, imagine being born and brought up by gays, growing up only playing with gays, every teacher you have had during your life have been gays and so on and so on. I think you'd think different then.

Must be a terrible experience for gay people. Is there anything I can do to stop bigotry?

so you are saying, it was meant to be as offensive and confrontational as possible? ah... I see. :p

Yeahup and all we need now to complete our mission is our own religion. ;)

Explain which "poor people" you mean. Or I might have to question the veracity of your online name.
:confused:

I'm sorry, I mean, poor gay people, having to live in the world you describe. Like where everyone is straight etc etc...

Try imagining every couple you see being gay. 99.9% of the people on TV being gay.
Only gays being able to marry.
Only gays being able to adopt in most places.
Almost all advertising being directed at gays.
People having no problem with gays kissing at the mall, but screaming for security if a guy kisses a girl.
The few straight people on TV and in the movies being portrayed as clowns or villains.
Being afraid to hold hands with your girlfiend in public because someone might beat you up. Or you might lose your housing or job.
Just pretend there was such a world and see how comfortable you'd be.

Almost all advertisng is directed at straight people, because 90% all people are straight.

I think gays should be able to join in a civil union, with all the exact same benefits of marriage, just let me keep the word marriage.

I think gays should be able to adopt.

All the movies I see portray gays fairly positive.

There are laws against losing your job or house because you are gay.

Or attacking people because they are gay.

If straight society seems to focus on straight people, it is because there are more straight people in society.


mattr0cka

Try imagining every couple you see being gay. 99.9% of the people on TV being gay.
Only gays being able to marry.
Only gays being able to adopt in most places.
Almost all advertising being directed at gays.
People having no problem with gays kissing at the mall, but screaming for security if a guy kisses a girl.
The few straight people on TV and in the movies being portrayed as clowns or villains.
Being afraid to hold hands with your girlfiend in public because someone might beat you up. Or you might lose your housing or job.
Just pretend there was such a world and see how comfortable you'd be.Why am I thinking about that SNL skit where the father is waiting for his son to come home from college to spend a great long weekend with him (setting him up for dates, planning the outings) only to find out that the son turned... Straight. The son confessed to liking a (gasp) girl and that he even had (double gasp) sex with her.
:D

Must be a terrible experience for gay people. Is there anything I can do to stop bigotry?

Maybe allowing the pride festivals, at least the gay people get support. also of course by not being a part in it... Respect will help. *looking at your name*

Yeahup and all we need now to complete our mission is our own religion. ;)gives a whole new meaning to the style "missionary" :D

Almost all advertisng is directed at straight people, because 90% all people are straight.

I think gays should be able to join in a civil union, with all the exact same benefits of marriage, just let me keep the word marriage.

I think gays should be able to adopt.

All the movies I see portray gays fairly positive.

There are laws against losing your job or house because you are gay.

Or attacking people because they are gay.

If straight society seems to focus on straight people, it is because there are more straight people in society.

1. Stop paragraphing your sentences. It's annoying and screws up the thread view. It is a breach of netiquette, and may thus be punishable by the mods.

2. So, when gay people are visible, it's "shoving gayness down your throat," but when straight people completely permeate society and force heteronormativity and heterosexism on everyone, that's not forcing their sexuality on everyone? Do you realise how silly you are coming across? Or are you just trolling?

Maybe allowing the pride festivals, at least the gay people get support. also of course by not being a part in it... Respect will help. *looking at your name*

Well, I'm definitely not a part of the bigotry! And believe me, if it was up to me, I'd give gay people exactly the same rights as hets, including the right to celebrate their community.
And yeah, lots of respect, I do that anyway too!

No, the "weirdos" aren't because, well, we don't care what you think.



What's "silly"?



Nice going there, missing the whole point. Trannies, post-op or pre-op, village people are people too. :rolleyes:



So, you're telling gay people that we should act straight to be accepted? Thanks, but no, thanks.

Transexuals are a different issue.

I would say wearing tight, revealing leather clothes in this day and age is silly, especially when one considers the people wearing these clothes are trying to protest serious issues.

If you march in a parade wearing leather chaps, or a strange peacock dress, you will look foolish, and thus be not taken seriously.

People need to conform to society to some sort of degree in order to be accepted and not merley tolerated.

Otherwise you will continue to get 1 week and we, 51, rather than us all sharing 52.


mattr0cka

gives a whole new meaning to the style "missionary" :D
I'm more intrigued by the missions themselves' to convert those heterosexual pagans rather than the minutia of church approved sexual positions. :)

1. Stop paragraphing your sentences. It's annoying and screws up the thread view. It is a breach of netiquette, and may thus be punishable by the mods.

2. So, when gay people are visible, it's "shoving gayness down your throat," but when straight people completely permeate society and force heteronormativity and heterosexism on everyone, that's not forcing their sexuality on everyone? Do you realise how silly you are coming across? Or are you just trolling?actually paragraphing the sentences does make it easier to read. Especially for those with glasses (like me)

There are laws against losing your job or house because you are gay.

Or attacking people because they are gay.



mattr0ckaAs to the first part of your statement I quoted, no, in most places there aren't. Most places in the country, especially in the paet I live, it is perfectly legal to discriminate against gays, Even if there is such a law where you live, it is certainly not unheard of to manufacture an excuse to get rid of a gay employee or tenant.

As to the second part, check out how many times the "gay panic" defense has been used successfully.

And if 99.9% of advertising and entertainment is targeted at straights, gays, at 6 to 10 %, are still very much underrepresented. Black couples appear (blacks equal about 13% of the population) frequently in mainstream advertising. Gay couples do not.

Almost all advertisng is directed at straight people, because 90% all people are straight.

I think gays should be able to join in a civil union, with all the exact same benefits of marriage, just let me keep the word marriage.

I think gays should be able to adopt.

All the movies I see portray gays fairly positive.

There are laws against losing your job or house because you are gay.

Or attacking people because they are gay.

If straight society seems to focus on straight people, it is because there are more straight people in society.


mattr0cka

But would it be a straight society if the norms and ideals were the same for all people, would it be a straight society if the advertising were directed to no specific group (meaning homo-bi-straight)

And sure. there are laws. doesn't mean homos are not fired from works because of who they are, doesn't mean that they can get a job as easily and so on. and reality is people get killed because they are gay.

"What parades are you watching where you're getting 'the act'?"



I'll concede the media focuses on the wierdos and not the everyday gay.

But the everyday gay needs to realize that the wierdos are screwing it up for them.

I'd like to see a gay march conducted with no silly stuff.

No trannies, post-op or pre-op, no village people, no B.S.

Just people.

I feel that would have a far more pro-found effect.

mattr0cka


WTF? I'm a weirdo and silly, but yet the rest of this insane world isn't? Whats so offensive about me -and people like me- can't take part in these marches? (I didn't go to pride Scotia today, much as I wanted to)

You do realise that if that happened, I'd have to arrange transgender "pride"* marches? Gah, some people. I prefer the idea of an LGBT marches. and I'd rather have frivolous, exuberant, enjoyable marches than boring stagnant affairs or worse -riots.




*pride in the pretty commonly acknowledged "not ashamed to be me" way*

Transexuals are a different issue.

Why are you mentioning them then?

I would say wearing tight, revealing leather clothes in this day and age is silly, especially when one considers the people wearing these clothes are trying to protest serious issues.

If you march in a parade wearing leather chaps, or a strange peacock dress, you will look foolish, and thus be not taken seriously.

You really have no understanding of the concept of a parade? Psst! It's all about wearing fun clothes. You know, because it's a parade! (http://images.google.se/images?q=parade&hl=sv&hs=7ic&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N&tab=wi)

People need to conform to society to some sort of degree in order to be accepted and not merley tolerated.

No.

Otherwise you will continue to get 1 week and we, 51, rather than us all sharing 52.

Actually, if being accepted means that I have to act straight, then I hope I never get accepted.

mattr0cka

We get it already, you write your own posts.

WTF? I'm a weirdo and silly, but yet the rest of this insane world isn't? Whats so offensive about me -and people like me- can't take part in these marches? (I didn't go to pride Scotia today, much as I wanted to)

You do realise that if that happened, I'd have to arrange transgender "pride"* marches? Gah, some people. I prefer the idea of an LGBT marches. and I'd rather have frivolous, exuberant, enjoyable marches than boring stagnant affairs or worse -riots.




*pride in the pretty commonly acknowledged "not ashamed to be me" way*

OMG? Transgendered people can't march in a gay festival? Aren't they anti-discrimination, is that not the point? So why not let transgendered people join in too? Prehistoric! Fair play to you my friend.

1. Stop paragraphing your sentences. It's annoying and screws up the thread view. It is a breach of netiquette, and may thus be punishable by the mods.

2. So, when gay people are visible, it's "shoving gayness down your throat," but when straight people completely permeate society and force heteronormativity and heterosexism on everyone, that's not forcing their sexuality on everyone? Do you realise how silly you are coming across? Or are you just trolling?

If my paragraphing sentences is a breach of netiquette and punishable by the mods, why would you quote it back to me?

I'll end this discussion with you now as you appear to be more interested in making false acqusations and enforcing made up rules.

Thanks,

Mattr0cka

actually paragraphing the sentences does make it easier to read.

No it doesn't, as it flies against all rules of the written language. Sentences are not paragraphed. Paragraphs are paragraphed.

Especially for those with glasses (like me)

I wear glasses and it's in no way easier to read because of the double spacing.

OMG? Transgendered people can't march in a gay festival? Aren't they anti-discrimination, is that not the point? So why not let transgendered people join in too? Prehistoric! Fair play to you my friend.


whoa, on re-read, I think you may have mistranslated me. Actually, I could go to the march if I wanted to, as a lot of T-people did. I was responding to Rocka, who mentioned he'd like to se marches without T-people... which I thought weird. Then I decided to think about the hypocricy of calling ANYONE weird.
I'd hate to be normal.

Transexuals are a different issue.

I would say wearing tight, revealing leather clothes in this day and age is silly, especially when one considers the people wearing these clothes are trying to protest serious issues.

If you march in a parade wearing leather chaps, or a strange peacock dress, you will look foolish, and thus be not taken seriously.

People need to conform to society to some sort of degree in order to be accepted and not merley tolerated.

Otherwise you will continue to get 1 week and we, 51, rather than us all sharing 52.


mattr0cka

Ah, so now you shouldn't be able to wear what you like to be considdered serious. the clothing is a part of who you are, and if gays wanna dress like gays they should of course be able to do that without being taken less seriously. and dressing is of course as well a product of the norms presented to us in different ways, for instance media. If I could choose, I'd like everyone to wear whatever they like, judges should be able to wear dreadlocks and bicycle pants if they want to, and still be able to be taken seriously.

No it doesn't, as it flies against all rules of the written language. Sentences are not paragraphed. Paragraphs are paragraphed.



I wear glasses and it's in no way easier to read because of the double spacing.

I bet it would really piss you off if he changed his font colour to yellow.

Fuck, I forgot the most important example, which actually was the catalyst for the parades in the first place-
Exhibit A (http://www.socialistalternative.com/literature/stonewall.html) (If you don't like the political bent of the source, do another google search, I just grabbed on of the first ones)

A tremendous suggestion. All of those work better than "pride". Pride is not a good thing. The world needs less of it, not more.
I'd agree with what everyone has pretty much said thus far; not to be ashamed.

Pride seems more like "I'm better than you!". Which isn't a good mentality.


It seems to me that a lot of people here are mistaking pride for conceit, and there is a world of difference between the two. Pride is nothing to be ashamed of. Pride is a virtue, conceit is a detriment.

If my paragraphing sentences is a breach of netiquette and punishable by the mods, why would you quote it back to me?

I'm am not going to edit your posts. That's your job.

I'll end this discussion with you now as you appear to be more interested in making false acqusations and enforcing made up rules.

They're not made up in the least. The mods have in the past ruled several times against breaches of netiquette, including paragraphing such as yours, the pointless signing of every post with ones name as if it weren't already automatically affixed to your every post, writing with all cursives, not using punctuation, abusing the formatting functions and so on and so forth.

I bet it would really piss you off if he changed his font colour to yellow.
like this? :p

I forgot the most important example, which actually was the catalyst for the parades in the first place-
Exhibit A (http://www.socialistalternative.com/literature/stonewall.html) (If you don't like the political bent of the source, do another google search, I just grabbed on of the first ones)careful... language.... Don't want the mod's attention... ;)

I bet it would really piss you off if he changed his font colour to yellow.

I'd stop reading what he writes at once if he did that. I have made an effort with the stupid paragraphing so far, but I'll stop making the effort right about now. The refusal to adhere to the netiquette of this forum is disrespectful of the people who are supposed to read what he writes, and I will no longer put up with it.

I'd stop reading what he writes at once if he did that. I have made an effort with the stupid paragraphing so far, but I'll stop making the effort right about now. The refusal to adhere to the netiquette of this forum is disrespectful of the people who are supposed to read what he writes, and I will no longer put up with it.

I think I better go get my shades.

I'd stop reading what he writes at once if he did that. I have made an effort with the stupid paragraphing so far, but I'll stop making the effort right about now. The refusal to adhere to the netiquette of this forum is disrespectful of the people who are supposed to read what he writes, and I will no longer put up with it.err.. fass, been reading the One Stop shop for rules and find nothing about paragraphing sentences... can you post a link to that ruling please?

careful... language.... Don't want the mod's attention... ;)
I'm sure at this point that Fass is for 'fastidious,' he bulldogs on these things to the point of chaffing. No one cares but him. There was a thread in moderation a while ago where it was determined we could swear, I think mostly because the moderators don't really want to have to go through posts looking for every swear word, rather focus thier attention on posts that are nothing but the word "fuck." Much like they don't really want to be bothered if a guy seperates his one sentence points into paragraphs.

The best thing is to stay on topic yourself and let him nitpick all he wants. I'm often on the same side of the argument as him, but man alive...FOCUS!

Anyway...thats a hijack so I'll stop.

I think I better go get my shades.*hands shades* :cool:

Anyway...thats a hijack so I'll stop.yeah, I'm at the point of just reading everyone elses views and opinions anyway.

I'd stop reading what he writes at once if he did that. I have made an effort with the stupid paragraphing so far, but I'll stop making the effort right about now. The refusal to adhere to the netiquette of this forum is disrespectful of the people who are supposed to read what he writes, and I will no longer put up with it.Get a grip, Fass.
It's not that big of a deal.
Besides, it detracts from your very good arguements to go on and on about the silly format.

An "It's OK to be gay" week would be better, in my opinion. Especially since it could gather much more support from the straight population.
I'm sorry but that little ryme "It's ok to be gay" grates on my nerves when I hear it much more than any other gay pride slogan. Why do we need a gay pride week anyway? Seems to me that that just wides the gap between fellow americans (or other -ans) and emphasizes our differences. Just a thought.

2. So, when gay people are visible, it's "shoving gayness down your throat," but when straight people completely permeate society and force heteronormativity and heterosexism on everyone, that's not forcing their sexuality on everyone? Do you realise how silly you are coming across? Or are you just trolling?
WTF? I didn't see any of that in his post. :confused:

Honestly. Does gay pride week actually make you proud to be gay? Does suddenly having a week where you go around saying "I'm proud to be gay" have any effect at all?

I know, odd/dumb question, but still...
Gay Pride week isn't about being proud of being gay, any more than Black Pride is about taking pride in the higher melanin content of one's skin. It's about being proud to be honest and open about who you are, despite the huge number of people trying to tell you that you are dirty or sinful or evil for loving something other than a certain sort of genitalia. It's about flipping the bird at all the small-minded and arrogant jackarses who think their opinion is holy, and who think they should have the right to peep into your bedroom and control your love life. I'm proud of all the gay men and women who have the strength to stand firm in the face of rampant religious fundamentalism and bigotry. I hope they take pride in themselves and their families, and I am glad to be able to celebrate their honesty and courage with them.

Why do we need a gay pride week anyway? Seems to me that that just wides the gap between fellow americans (or other -ans) and emphasizes our differences. Just a thought.

ah, the parades are good craic. and so what if the differences are emphasized? that's the whole point. one can be 'different'and accepted. it's being proud to be themselves with all differences.

Gay Pride week isn't about being proud of being gay, any more than Black Pride is about taking pride in the higher melanin content of one's skin. It's about being proud to be honest and open about who you are, despite the huge number of people trying to tell you that you are dirty or sinful or evil for loving something other than a certain sort of genitalia. It's about flipping the bird at all the small-minded and arrogant jackarses who think their opinion is holy, and who think they should have the right to peep into your bedroom and control your love life. I'm proud of all the gay men and women who have the strength to stand firm in the face of rampant religious fundamentalism and bigotry. I hope they take pride in themselves and their families, and I am glad to be able to celebrate their honesty and courage with them.
Ok so what would you say about people who flip the bird to gays? I'm not going to tell anyone that they can't be gay but supposing that I did try to and choose to hold an anti-gay rally? You know what would happen, I'd be flamed to death by the press and message board like this one. Even though freedom of speech is a tenet that I hold dear, I think I'd deserve to be flamed too because my actions would have been deliberately inflamatory. Most of what I hear from gays is that they want to be left alone to live their lives normally but things like "Gay Pride Week" fly in the face of being left alone and only serve to stir up anti-gay people.

BTW I think a Black-Pride week is even dumber, true racial equality isn't gonna come untill people truely don't even recongnize a difference and things like "Black Pride Week" and "African American History Month" etc are major obsticles to that lack of recongnition comming to pass.

Ok so what would you say about people who flip the bird to gays? I'm not going to tell anyone that they can't be gay but supposing that I did try to and choose to hold an anti-gay rally? You know what would happen, I'd be flamed to death by the press and message board like this one. Even though freedom of speech is a tenet that I hold dear, I think I'd deserve to be flamed too because my actions would have been deliberately inflamatory. Most of what I hear from gays is that they want to be left alone to live their lives normally but things like "Gay Pride Week" fly in the face of being left alone and only serve to stir up anti-gay people.

First of all, there are anti-gay rallies every day in America. Churches throughout this country glorify homophobia every Sunday. Politicians tout constitutional Ammendments that would forbid citizens of this country to make private decisions about their own partner and family. As long as you say that Jeebus told you to hate the gays, the press will scream bloody murder at any "bigot" who tries to "oppress" your "religious freedom." So forgive me, but my heart isn't exactly bleeding for you.

Flipping the bird at people who choose to stick their noses into your private love life is something I consider fair; they threw the first stones, so they can take what they deserve. On the other hand, holding a parade to celebrate your personal desire to tell other people who to fuck...well, that's just plain pathetic. Gay Pride parades aren't about telling straight people they're going to hell, any more than Black Pride is about telling all non-blacks they are going to hell. Gay Pride is about saying "go to hell" to the homophobes, telling them that they can hold bigotted beliefs all they want but that it's not going to stop gay people from being out. It's the same as telling the KKK that they can hold all the rallies they want, but black people are still going to have equal rights under the law.

Think about it: if Christians hold a parade (which they do, often), it can be a celebration of their faith. If Jews wanted to hold their own parade, there wouldn't be anything wrong with that. But if Christians wanted to hold a parade celebrating that all the Jews are going to Hell, that would be pretty assholish, right? And if the Jews held a parade celebrating how the Christians aren't Chosen and ha-ha on them, that would be a jackassish thing to do as well, wouldn't it? I think people have the right to be jackasses if they really want, but I'm not going to praise them for it, and I'm not going to hesitate to call them jackasses when they deserve it.

If homophobes want to brag about their bigotry, I will be the first to defend their right to do so. I want them to be loud and up front about how ignorant, fearful, and irrational they are, so that nobody makes the mistake of thinking they are decent or honorable human beings. I want everybody to see clearly what kind of folks the 'phobes are. If the 'phobes want to save me the time of having to expose them, well, I think that's pretty considerate of them.


BTW I think a Black-Pride week is even dumber, true racial equality isn't gonna come untill people truely don't even recongnize a difference and things like "Black Pride Week" and "African American History Month" etc are major obsticles to that lack of recongnition comming to pass.
Ideally, we wouldn't need "Black History Month" because our normal history classes wouldn't be White History. We wouldn't need Women's History classes because our normal history classes would cover women as well as men. We wouldn't need Gay Pride because the homophobes would give up trying to make everybody stick penises into vaginas in the name of the Lord. But the world's not quite there yet. If the Civil Rights movement taught us anything, it's that you have to make some noise to get the ball of change a-rollin'. Sorry if that ticks you off...I know the Klanners were pretty PO'ed when it came time for their pet prejudice to die, and it makes sense that homophobes will go through the same period of hand-wringing and whimpering.

First of all, there are anti-gay rallies every day in America. Churches throughout this country glorify homophobia every Sunday. Politicians tout constitutional Ammendments that would forbid citizens of this country to make private decisions about their own partner and family. As long as you say that Jeebus told you to hate the gays, the press will scream bloody murder at any "bigot" who tries to "oppress" your "religious freedom." So forgive me, but my heart isn't exactly bleeding for you.

Flipping the bird at people who choose to stick their noses into your private love life is something I consider fair; they threw the first stones, so they can take what they deserve. On the other hand, holding a parade to celebrate your personal desire to tell other people who to fuck...well, that's just plain pathetic. Gay Pride parades aren't about telling straight people they're going to hell, any more than Black Pride is about telling all non-blacks they are going to hell. Gay Pride is about saying "go to hell" to the homophobes, telling them that they can hold bigotted beliefs all they want but that it's not going to stop gay people from being out. It's the same as telling the KKK that they can hold all the rallies they want, but black people are still going to have equal rights under the law.

Think about it: if Christians hold a parade (which they do, often), it can be a celebration of their faith. If Jews wanted to hold their own parade, there wouldn't be anything wrong with that. But if Christians wanted to hold a parade celebrating that all the Jews are going to Hell, that would be pretty assholish, right? And if the Jews held a parade celebrating how the Christians aren't Chosen and ha-ha on them, that would be a jackassish thing to do as well, wouldn't it? I think people have the right to be jackasses if they really want, but I'm not going to praise them for it, and I'm not going to hesitate to call them jackasses when they deserve it.

If homophobes want to brag about their bigotry, I will be the first to defend their right to do so. I want them to be loud and up front about how ignorant, fearful, and irrational they are, so that nobody makes the mistake of thinking they are decent or honorable human beings. I want everybody to see clearly what kind of folks the 'phobes are. If the 'phobes want to save me the time of having to expose them, well, I think that's pretty considerate of them.


Ideally, we wouldn't need "Black History Month" because our normal history classes wouldn't be White History. We wouldn't need Women's History classes because our normal history classes would cover women as well as men. We wouldn't need Gay Pride because the homophobes would give up trying to make everybody stick penises into vaginas in the name of the Lord. But the world's not quite there yet. If the Civil Rights movement taught us anything, it's that you have to make some noise to get the ball of change a-rollin'. Sorry if that ticks you off...I know the Klanners were pretty PO'ed when it came time for their pet prejudice to die, and it makes sense that homophobes will go through the same period of hand-wringing and whimpering.

So very excellent. I wish I were as eloquent. Or maybe I'm just lazy.
Anyway, I couldn't have said it better. Here's to all the decent, tolerant human beings in the world. :fluffle:

So very excellent. I wish I were as eloquent. Or maybe I'm just lazy.
Anyway, I couldn't have said it better. Here's to all the decent, tolerant human beings in the world. :fluffle:
Well jeepers, thank you kindly.

You know, whenever homophobes talk about wanting "Straight Pride" parades, and stuff like that, it reminds me of a time that I asked my mom why there's no "Children's Day." There's a Mother's Day and a Father's Day, but no Children's Day! Why not?! And she pointed out, "Honey, EVERY day is Children's Day."

Every day in American is Straight Pride Day. When gay people aren't allowed to adopt their own foster kids, every Mother's Day and Father's Day is a reminder of "hetero pride." When gay people aren't even allowed to get married, every hetero wedding between drunken strangers officiated by Elvis in the Chappel 'O Love is a kick in the gay community's collective teeth.

Heterosexuality is practically it's own religion these days. People take so much pride in meshing mis-matched genitals that it's downright silly, so why should it be odd for others to celebrate the meshing of a matched set of genitals? Why should anybody be surprised that homosexuals call attention to their sexuality, when heterosexuals hardly take enough time off from flaunting their sexuality to actually have the sex they are bragging so much about?

So just remember, when you find yourself asking why straight people can't seem to get a break...you can marry who you love. You can rear your children without having to worry about other kids (or adults) harassing them and beating them up because of who you chose to marry. You can see images of families just like yours everywhere you turn; in ads, in movies, on Halmark cards, and on TV. You won't have to listen to half the country telling you that you're unnatural and dirty for loving the wrong set of gonads. You aren't expected to be grateful when the government decides to decriminalize your sex life. Every day, you enjoy freedoms that gay people must fight and bleed for. Every day, you are free to celebrate what gay people have never had. Every day is your Pride day. So quit yer whining.

Well jeepers, thank you kindly.

You know, whenever homophobes talk about wanting "Straight Pride" parades, and stuff like that, it reminds me of a time that I asked my mom why there's no "Children's Day." There's a Mother's Day and a Father's Day, but no Children's Day! Why not?! And she pointed out, "Honey, EVERY day is Children's Day."

Every day in American is Straight Pride Day. When gay people aren't allowed to adopt their own foster kids, every Mother's Day and Father's Day is a reminder of "hetero pride." When gay people aren't even allowed to get married, every hetero wedding between drunken strangers officiated by Elvis in the Chappel 'O Love is a kick in the gay community's collective teeth.

Heterosexuality is practically it's own religion these days. People take so much pride in meshing mis-matched genitals that it's downright silly, so why should it be odd for others to celebrate the meshing of a matched set of genitals? Why should anybody be surprised that homosexuals call attention to their sexuality, when heterosexuals hardly take enough time off from flaunting their sexuality to actually have the sex they are bragging so much about?

So just remember, when you find yourself asking why straight people can't seem to get a break...you can marry who you love. You can rear your children without having to worry about other kids (or adults) harassing them and beating them up because of who you chose to marry. You can see images of families just like yours everywhere you turn; in ads, in movies, on Halmark cards, and on TV. You won't have to listen to half the country telling you that you're unnatural and dirty for loving the wrong set of gonads. You aren't expected to be grateful when the government decides to decriminalize your sex life. Every day, you enjoy freedoms that gay people must fight and bleed for. Every day, you are free to celebrate what gay people have never had. Every day is your Pride day. So quit yer whining.
Says it all (http://www.lanl.gov/orgs/pa/newsbulletin/images/Browne_standing_ovation.jpg)

Every day, you enjoy freedoms that gay people must fight and bleed for. Every day, you are free to celebrate what gay people have never had. Every day is your Pride day. So quit yer whining.
Yeah yeah, take tha power back, y'all!

And if 99.9% of advertising and entertainment is targeted at straights, gays, at 6 to 10 %, are still very much underrepresented. Black couples appear (blacks equal about 13% of the population) frequently in mainstream advertising. Gay couples do not.

You have pointed out, what seems to me, to be a problem. If I owned say, a hair salon or a high end clothing store it would, in theory, be incredibly advantageous for me to advertise to gay men. I’m not trying to be stereotypical here, well, actually I am. Advertising depend on stereotypes. Now, I said this should help my business in theory, but in actuality, I would be picketed and boycotted, by who knows how many “pro-family” groups. You see, ultimately it would hurt me.

However, where you aware that throughout the 1800’s advertising directed at gays was quiet common, just well disguised, because gays had a sort of ‘code’ developed. Ads would feature men wearing red scarf’s, a man lighting another man’s cigarette and other “signs” that the gay community used to recognized other “dandies”.

My opinion, gays have your week and your parade. As long as you stay off of private property that doesn’t want you, you obtain the proper permits, and you remain reasonably clean in front of the children, ya’ll have a blast. I may not agree with you, but that doesn’t mean I should be able to stop you from doing what you want. After all, I and some fellow Christians have the right to get together and hold a prayer meeting in a public place, so you should have the right to do as you wish on public property.

As long as you stay off of private property that doesn’t want you, you obtain the proper permits, and you remain reasonably clean in front of the children, ya’ll have a blast.
While I really appreciate your willingness to extend free speech even to those you disagree with, there's one part of this that bothers me a tad...the whole "remain reasonable clean in front of the children" thing.

Personally, I consider it more appropriate to walk around fully nude in front of a child than to preach religion in front of a child. I consider it obscene to speak of superstition as though it were fact in the presence of a child, but I see nothing wrong with talking opennly and candidly about sex in front of a child. So I am wondering: whose standard of "cleanliness" shall we apply, if that is to be a restriction in behavior? Is there a reason why my standard of cleanliness should be disregarded, while the standards held by others are enshrined in law?

Personally, I consider it more appropriate to walk around fully nude in front of a child than to preach religion in front of a child. I consider it obscene to speak of superstition as though it were fact in the presence of a child, but I see nothing wrong with talking opennly and candidly about sex in front of a child. So I am wondering: whose standard of "cleanliness" shall we apply, if that is to be a restriction in behavior? Is there a reason why my standard of cleanliness should be disregarded, while the standards held by others are enshrined in law?

It is your right to think such. However, when dealing with minors, it is best to respect the ideal the parents have for raising their children. I think you will find, that if you do that, others will be more willing to respect whatever lifestyle you subscribe to.

It makes me feel a little more comfortable and safe.

It is your right to think such. However, when dealing with minors, it is best to respect the ideal the parents have for raising their children. I think you will find, that if you do that, others will be more willing to respect whatever lifestyle you subscribe to.
There seems to be some misunderstanding. I have no intention of ignoring what parents want for their children, and I personally have no interest in flashing my nude body or making out in public. My questions refered to your belief that people should keep things "clean" in front of kids...what defines "clean," and at what point are we obligated to respect the parents' wishes? Should people be forced to refrain from any public religious behavior in view of my children, because I feel it is obscene? Should racist parents be permitted to call a halt to any parades that celebrate non-WASP cultures, because they feel it is "dirty" and don't want their children to see it? Should homophobic parents be allowed to block gay pride parades that feature gay couples who publicly kiss, if they feel that is "unclean" and shouldn't been seen by children?

There seems to be some misunderstanding. I have no intention of ignoring what parents want for their children, and I personally have no interest in flashing my nude body or making out in public. My questions refered to your belief that people should keep things "clean" in front of kids...what defines "clean," and at what point are we obligated to respect the parents' wishes? Should people be forced to refrain from any public religious behavior in view of my children, because I feel it is obscene? Should racist parents be permitted to call a halt to any parades that celebrate non-WASP cultures, because they feel it is "dirty" and don't want their children to see it? Should homophobic parents be allowed to block gay pride parades that feature gay couples who publicly kiss, if they feel that is "unclean" and shouldn't been seen by children?are parents calling a halt to it? (parades)

for them I have my usual response. "You don't have to go and you can always switch to another channel. that is the wonderful thing about having the freedom to choose."

are parents calling a halt to it? (parades)

Some are. There certainly are many parents who feel that gay couples who publicly hold hands or exchange a kiss are being obscene, just as there are some people who think a hug between friends constitutes a grotesque public display of affection. I don't think most straight parents feel that gay hand-holding is disgusting, but there are some who do, so my question is whose opinion of "clean" is to be enforced on pride parades.


for them I have my usual response. "You don't have to go and you can always switch to another channel. that is the wonderful thing about having the freedom to choose."
Remember, though, that these are the people who believe that a gay couple's wedding somehow dirties their own heterosexual union. They are not able to grasp the fact that other people's private lives are separate from their own private life.

Remember, though, that these are the people who believe that a gay couple's wedding somehow dirties their own heterosexual union. They are not able to grasp the fact that other people's private lives are separate from their own private life.ah... but the idea of Marriage (in the popular vein) as a religious connotation to it. that it is sacntified by God. so in that viewpoint, You can see why they think like that. now, what to Gay's think about Marriage? Do they want it for the Rights and Responsiblities that the Government gives them? do they just want an affirmation of their Love? or do they want to say "See God witnessed our union so it's ok in God's eyes?"

ah... but the idea of Marriage (in the popular vein) as a religious connotation to it. that it is sacntified by God. so in that viewpoint, You can see why they think like that.

I can see why they think that, but not why we should have to care. Marriage is not necessarily religious, and just because they labor under the misconception that it is does not make that the case. Many people once believed that interracial marriage was sinful and wrong, yet we aren't expected to honor that belief any more.


now, what to Gay's think about Marriage? Do they want it for the Rights and Responsiblities that the Government gives them? do they just want an affirmation of their Love? or do they want to say "See God witnessed our union so it's ok in God's eyes?"
Some gays want to have sanctified marriage. Some gays want the legal, secular rights of a marriage contract. Some gays simply want to have equality in the eyes of the government. Some want public acknowledgement of their unions. Some want to be able to share their unions without societal condemnation and shaming. Some want to provide a more stable future for their families. Some want all of the above, and some want none of the above. Gays aren't all of one mind on the subject. There's not some massive Gay Collective. Gays, like straight people, hold different opinions about marriage, and marriage serves different functions for different couples.

I can see why they think that, but not why we should have to care. Marriage is not necessarily religious, and just because they labor under the misconception that it is does not make that the case. Many people once believed that interracial marriage was sinful and wrong, yet we aren't expected to honor that belief any more.and how long did the fight for interracial marriage last? first they had to give Blacks their freedom, then their civil rights and finally chip away at that public perception. The problem is, changes of this magnatude takes a long time, but people want it now! Gays are fighting public perception that has lasted hundreds of years and they think a decade or two would be enough to change everyone's opinion? if they want it done now, then they have to take small victories. Because they rushed it, the government reacted with that constitutional change. if they take their time and stay loyal to the Cause, then the change will happen. As it did for the blacks. As it did for the women.

Some gays want to have sanctified marriage. Some gays want the legal, secular rights of a marriage contract. Some gays simply want to have equality in the eyes of the government. Some want public acknowledgement of their unions. Some want to be able to share their unions without societal condemnation and shaming. Some want to provide a more stable future for their families. Some want all of the above, and some want none of the above. Gays aren't all of one mind on the subject. There's not some massive Gay Collective. Gays, like straight people, hold different opinions about marriage, and marriage serves different functions for different couples.then for the most part, take civil unions. it would be easier to redefine Civil Unions now (because of the constitutional change) and then slowly work on changing that to Marriage. continue the Head on war and more casualties will emerge.

Personally, I consider it more appropriate to walk around fully nude in front of a child than to preach religion in front of a child. I consider it obscene to speak of superstition as though it were fact in the presence of a child, but I see nothing wrong with talking opennly and candidly about sex in front of a child.

Amen. So to speak.
I knew where babies came from by time I was four. The real story, not some fairy tale.
My questions about death, sex and where people came from were answered honestly. My mother only gave me a book of Bible stories to placate my paternal grandmother.

Long before the current flack about gay marraige came up, my mother expressed her feelings about it. When the ERA was up for ratification, one of Mom's friends expressed dismay over the idea that someday it might be used to let gays marry one another. My mother said she didn't see who it would hurt if evey gay in America got married.
The same thing I say now.

ah... but the idea of Marriage (in the popular vein) as a religious connotation to it. that it is sacntified by God. so in that viewpoint, You can see why they think like that. now, what to Gay's think about Marriage? Do they want it for the Rights and Responsiblities that the Government gives them? do they just want an affirmation of their Love? or do they want to say "See God witnessed our union so it's ok in God's eyes?"

Personally, I think the feds should stay out of marriage, period. It shouldn’t be a government issue. It is a vow between two people to live together in love. I don’t see why the government gets to regulate it. The government should recognize civil unions between any two people that want to have the rights and responsibilities of it.

Some are. There certainly are many parents who feel that gay couples who publicly hold hands or exchange a kiss are being obscene

Well, I don’t. I know what you mean, though. When watching “Will and Grace” one may witness a light peck between two men every now and then. I don’t have a problem with it, but my parents grow physically ill at that sight.

When considering what is clean, whatever a strait person can do on public property, a gay person should be able to as well.

and how long did the fight for interracial marriage last? the problem is, changes of this magnatude takes a long time, but people want it now! Gays are fighting public perception that has lasted hundreds of years and they think a decade or two would be enough to change everyone's opinion? if they want it done now, then they have to take small victories. Because they rushed it, the government reacted with that constitutional change. if they take their time and stay loyal to the Cause, then the change will happen. As it did for the blacks. As it did for the women.

Sure, it make take time for society to change, but the Women's Rights and Civil Rights movements showed how it is often necessary to change the laws BEFORE society will change. Women were given equal rights long before society accepted women as equals...some would say we still don't manage that. Blacks were giving equal legal rights long before society embraced the equality of races, and (again) many would say we haven't even reached that point today. Gays should not have to wait for equality under the law.


then for the most part, take civil unions. it would be easier to redefine Civil Unions now (because of the constitutional change) and then slowly work on changing that to Marriage. continue the Head on war and more casualties will emerge.
"Casualties"? Civil rights movements always come at a price, but I see no reason why gay citizens should have to settle for half-measures. There is no reason why they should not have precisely the same unions, under the law, as all other citizens. If society at large feels that gay marriage is icky, so what? Society used to think it was icky for black people to marry white people, but we didn't let that stop us. Society used to think it was unnatural for women to work outside the home, but we didn't let that stop us. Why should we confine ourselves to the lowest common denominator? Why should we reduce human decency to the level of the most immature among us? Why not have our laws reflect the highest values of our country, rather than the basest fears and prejudices?

Well, I don’t. I know what you mean, though. When watching “Will and Grace” one may witness a light peck between two men every now and then. I don’t have a problem with it, but my parents grow physically ill at that sight.

When considering what is clean, whatever a strait person can do on public property, a gay person should be able to as well.
Fair enough. Sounds like we have no disagreement, in that case, although I think both straight and gay people should have more freedoms for public expression than we currently have.

Just in case anybody here is wondering (I received one enquiring telegram), I am not gay. I am also not straight. I am attracted to hot people, regardless of gender :). I happen to be in a monogamous heterosexual relationship right now, and have been for several years. I am not married, nor do I have plans to marry in the near future, nor have I been married in the past.

Sure, it make take time for society to change, but the Women's Rights and Civil Rights movements showed how it is often necessary to change the laws BEFORE society will change. Women were given equal rights long before society accepted women as equals...some would say we still don't manage that. Blacks were giving equal legal rights long before society embraced the equality of races, and (again) many would say we haven't even reached that point today. Gays should not have to wait for equality under the law.so you think Gays are more special than blacks or women? I'm saying it takes time. Right or Wrong, it takes time. When the blacks were fighting for the right to vote, they saw the reason to leave women off of the ticket because they knew by combining the two, they would loose. so they took small victories and slowly obtained their rights, then they helped the women get theirs. (rights that is)

"Casualties"? Civil rights movements always come at a price, but I see no reason why gay citizens should have to settle for half-measures. There is no reason why they should not have precisely the same unions, under the law, as all other citizens. If society at large feels that gay marriage is icky, so what? Society used to think it was icky for black people to marry white people, but we didn't let that stop us. Society used to think it was unnatural for women to work outside the home, but we didn't let that stop us. Why should we confine ourselves to the lowest common denominator? Why should we reduce human decency to the level of the most immature among us? Why not have our laws reflect the highest values of our country, rather than the basest fears and prejudices?it's not settling for half measures, but it's basic tactics. You don't win the war with one battle but by winning smaller battles and slowly adding them up. you want to change the perceptions of a nation, you have to do it slowly and carefully. Right now, marriage is now denied with the constitutional amendment. so fight for the civil unions. get that and redefine it to equate marriage in every way except God. then with that, slowly show the people that if Civil Union=Marriage, then why not have marriage. and by that point, most people would see that because there would be just as many civil unions as there would be marriage.

basically outflank them.

Why should we confine ourselves to the lowest common denominator? Why should we reduce human decency to the level of the most immature among us? Why not have our laws reflect the highest values of our country, rather than the basest fears and prejudices?

*bakes you a cake*

Sure, it make take time for society to change, but the Women's Rights and Civil Rights movements showed how it is often necessary to change the laws BEFORE society will change. Women were given equal rights long before society accepted women as equals...some would say we still don't manage that. Blacks were giving equal legal rights long before society embraced the equality of races, and (again) many would say we haven't even reached that point today. Gays should not have to wait for equality under the law.

Yes but the womens rights and african-american civil rights movements succeeded through dispelling the predominant stereotypes not by embracing them.
Its not like women or blacks were holding obscene rallys and swishing their asses about, then telling the public to fuck off if you dont like it.

"Casualties"? Civil rights movements always come at a price, but I see no reason why gay citizens should have to settle for half-measures. There is no reason why they should not have precisely the same unions, under the law, as all other citizens. If society at large feels that gay marriage is icky, so what? Society used to think it was icky for black people to marry white people, but we didn't let that stop us. Society used to think it was unnatural for women to work outside the home, but we didn't let that stop us. Why should we confine ourselves to the lowest common denominator? Why should we reduce human decency to the level of the most immature among us? Why not have our laws reflect the highest values of our country, rather than the basest fears and prejudices?

If society at large feels that gay marriage is icky, so what?

Why should we confine ourselves to the lowest common denominator? Why should we reduce human decency to the level of the most immature among us?

When gays equate society to "the lowest common denominator" or "immature" for disagreeing with them, they are attacking society at large. That isnt exactly the best way to gain acceptance. I'll tell you this, gays certainly will not gain my tolerance. let alone my acceptance, by being more obnoxious then they already are.

First of all, there are anti-gay rallies every day in America. Churches throughout this country glorify homophobia every Sunday. Politicians tout constitutional Ammendments that would forbid citizens of this country to make private decisions about their own partner and family. As long as you say that Jeebus told you to hate the gays, the press will scream bloody murder at any "bigot" who tries to "oppress" your "religious freedom." So forgive me, but my heart isn't exactly bleeding for you.

Woah Woah, I think you misunderstood me completely. I don't think I brought religion into this but even if I did that's not my motivation for my post. I think it's in the best intrest of gays to not purposefully stick out. If I were to meet a gay on the street and get to know him/her then find out that they are gay I wouldn't feel uncomfortable around them but if the first thing they said was "Hi I'm gay and proud and there's nothing you can do about it" I would. That is the message that comes across frequently in pro-gay rallies

(not to say that anti-gay rallies and movements are perfect, far from it in fact, I'm discusted by much of the anti-gay closeminded bullcrap even though I am a Christian and not particually fond of gay lifestyle).

Mostly what I was trying to say (and failed misserably apparently) is that having these things going on just makes gays that much more different in some people's eyes and harder to accept by the same people, thus it is bad for the gays that it's designed to help.

In regards to the original question:

Didn't even know it was on. Here or anywhere in the world.
I'm in Australia, we get the Mardi Gras. However, that's usually just treated as a joke most people, gay and straight. Mainly it's just a chance to dress up. Plus it draws tourists.

But it began differently - started out as a protest for equal rights, and many of the people who marched were arrested. Shows how far we've come here, at least in one respect.

Its not like women or blacks were holding obscene rallys and swishing their asses about, then telling the public to fuck off if you dont like it.

As I'm sure you know the parades aren't only about acceptance but also a cellebration and an excuse to have fun so you shouldn't expect them to be the same as an entirely political march.

Would you describe other parades and festivals as obscene by the way? Most that I have seen involve people swishing their areses about. If you have a problem with those then I can understand your viewpoint but otherwise I am having trouble doing so.

The difference between LGBT firmly accepting and sometimes playing up the steriotype and other groups denying theirs is IMHO because those grouos were being seen as inferior and they wanted people to show that they are the same. LGBT parades are trying to show that it's OK to be different and that's why the steriotype is accepted. I am not a fan of the steiotype because I beleive that it pressures people to conform to that rather than be purely themselves (very difficult in society I know). There shouldn't be a LGBT or a 'straight' steriotype at all but that won't change for ages.

As for having to be less forceful about gay rights than women or other groups were I think that is rubbish. In the UK the WSPU carried out terrorist attacks as part of their campaign, LGBT don't do that and aren't being very extreme in their campaign for acceptance and inequality. (That may very well have been a fallacious point just like the resty of this post is but hopefully someone can point it out so I can make my points better). Other groups should not have gone through their struggle for rights but because they did have to doesn't mean that other groups should suffer the same way when their rights are being wrongfully denied. To use an incredably bad analogy patients in the C19 had legs removed without anesthetic or antisceptic to stop them being killed by gangrene, people suffering from gangrene now shouldn't have to go through that because people in the past did.

Transexuals are a different issue.
That's true, transsexuals are marginalized by both the straight and gay communities, unfortunately.
I'm curious as to what you think "cramming down your throat" is?Have you ever seen a heterosexual couple holding hands or some other form of a PDA? (Not that I have a problem with PDAs.) Other people also came up with other good suggestions.
Yeahup and all we need now to complete our mission is our own religion. Do you think stealing the invisible pink unicorn from the atheists would work?

It's funny how casually people describe the gay rights movement as "militant" when it really was not. Do they remember the Black Panthers? Going further back, do they remember the campaign of violence, vandalism and suicide attacks of the women's suffrage movements in the early 20th century?

ah... but the idea of Marriage (in the popular vein) as a religious connotation to it. that it is sacntified by God.
If that's true, then why are atheists allowed to get married?

and how long did the fight for interracial marriage last? first they had to give Blacks their freedom, then their civil rights and finally chip away at that public perception. The problem is, changes of this magnatude takes a long time, but people want it now!
It should not be as big a fight for gays because they are not as oppressed as black people used to be. It has not dawned on me how asking for marriage rights is such a huge thing, nor how it is wrong for them to be granted now.

Gay pride week?
you guys are sickos!

so you think Gays are more special than blacks or women? I'm saying it takes time. Right or Wrong, it takes time. When the blacks were fighting for the right to vote, they saw the reason to leave women off of the ticket because they knew by combining the two, they would loose. so they took small victories and slowly obtained their rights, then they helped the women get theirs. (rights that is)I've gotta point out a slight issue with this though.

Women's Rights was not a [particularly] religious debate; there's only one verse in the New Testament placing men as superior to women (the oft-quoted "women should sit at the back and be quiet, I won't let them teach men" one of Paul's. But this was a culturally-specific quote, at a time when women were, right or wrong, considered inferior), and the rest of the time the Bible speaks of equality. So, once this was realised, the wheels got into motion on granting equal rights.

Black rights, again. There's nothing in the Bible about persecuting or being prejudiced against black people. Once society realised this, the wheels were rolling on giving them equal rights, etc etc etc. Of course, for both women and black people, it's not equal, and it probably won't be for a long while yet. This is a shame.

However, homosexuality, and in particular gay sex, is spoken against in the Bible...several times. If Women's and Black Rights are a rule to go by, then it should take a lot longer to grant homosexuals equal rights. However, I fear that in this crazy politically-correct and liberal West it won't.

But a quick point: Gay people aren't prejudiced against for marriage; straight people can't marry the same sex either; it's not just you lot that the law works against, we can't either.;) :eek:

And we'll politely ignore Chewie.

I find it funny that people say "the government shouldn't be allowed into the bedrooms" yet people still take what is supposed to be in the bedroom (or at least inside the home) and parade it out in the streets and demand that no one be offended.

Really? last time I looked, there weren't groups of people on floats having sex with each other.

If we had a straight pride parade and grabbed every type of person out there, would you take offence to seeing the wife swappers, swingers, the fundies, hippies etc. etc. marching and showing their 'alternative lifestyle'?

Gay pride week is fun :sniper:

(EDIT:I mean, that me and my gay pals went to the shooting gallery)

Really? last time I looked, there weren't groups of people on floats having sex with each other.

If we had a straight pride parade and grabbed every type of person out there, would you take offence to seeing the wife swappers, swingers, the fundies, hippies etc. etc. marching and showing their 'alternative lifestyle'?
Ooh, and don't forget the SMBD enthusiasts... :cool:

What's "silly"?
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_080.JPG
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_085.JPG
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_111.JPG
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_036A.JPG
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_033.JPG
http://trazen.org/im_images/gay_pride.jpg
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_025.JPG
http://www.sfgate.com/chronicle/pictures/2001/06/25/pride-210x267-parade.jpg
http://vision.poly.edu:8080/~xlu/photos/pride_angel.jpg

Just a quick hint: you'll never get people to take you seriously or treat you as anything more than deviant fruitloops when you have displays like the above. It's just like flag burning: people ignore your message when the method you use to present the message is offensive/wildly unpopular.

http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_080.JPG
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_085.JPG
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_111.JPG
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_036A.JPG
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_033.JPG
http://trazen.org/im_images/gay_pride.jpg
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_025.JPG
http://www.sfgate.com/chronicle/pictures/2001/06/25/pride-210x267-parade.jpg
http://vision.poly.edu:8080/~xlu/photos/pride_angel.jpg

Just a quick hint: you'll never get people to take you seriously or treat you as anything more than deviant fruitloops when you have displays like the above. It's just like flag burning: people ignore your message when the method you use to present the message is offensive/wildly unpopular.
Mmm... drag queens are hot.

http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_080.JPG
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_085.JPG
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_111.JPG
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_036A.JPG
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_033.JPG
http://trazen.org/im_images/gay_pride.jpg
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_025.JPG
http://www.sfgate.com/chronicle/pictures/2001/06/25/pride-210x267-parade.jpg
http://vision.poly.edu:8080/~xlu/photos/pride_angel.jpg

Just a quick hint: you'll never get people to take you seriously or treat you as anything more than deviant fruitloops when you have displays like the above. It's just like flag burning: people ignore your message when the method you use to present the message is offensive/wildly unpopular.
First, not everything is about you. The parades aren't so much about making homophobes comfortable-frankly, that's not going to happen so who cares?

It's about not being ashamed or afraid to be who they are. As has been pointed out repeatedly, it's a fuckin' parade-it's like saying you'll never take Irish people seriously if they're gonna run around in green hats drinking green beer on St. Patty's...You'd have to be a complete dumbass to think that people behave the same way in thier lives as they do in a parade.

So they took the 'hint' after Stonewall-they'll never be safe if they pretend they don't exist so some quesy people 'take them seriously.' For some people being gay is offensive/wildly unpopular-it's not going to matter if you dress it up in a suit.

In fact, the parade is a direct reponse to this attitude that they should 'hide' or 'normalize' who they are. It hasn't worked, they're not going to do it anymore.

First, not everything is about you. The parades aren't so much about making homophobes comfortable-frankly, that's not going to happen so who cares?

It's about not being ashamed or afraid to be who they are. As has been pointed out repeatedly, it's a fuckin' parade-it's like saying you'll never take Irish people seriously if they're gonna run around in green hats drinking green beer on St. Patty's...You'd have to be a complete dumbass to think that people behave the same way in thier lives as they do in a parade.

So they took the 'hint' after Stonewall-they'll never be safe if they pretend they don't exist so some quesy people 'take them seriously.' For some people being gay is offensive/wildly unpopular-it's not going to matter if you dress it up in a suit.

In fact, the parade is a direct reponse to this attitude that they should 'hide' or 'normalize' who they are. It hasn't worked, they're not going to do it anymore.


I was trying to say that but whenever I typed that didn't come out. Thanks!

http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_080.JPG
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_085.JPG
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_111.JPG
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_036A.JPG
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_033.JPG
http://trazen.org/im_images/gay_pride.jpg
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_025.JPG
http://www.sfgate.com/chronicle/pictures/2001/06/25/pride-210x267-parade.jpg
http://vision.poly.edu:8080/~xlu/photos/pride_angel.jpg

Just a quick hint: you'll never get people to take you seriously or treat you as anything more than deviant fruitloops when you have displays like the above. It's just like flag burning: people ignore your message when the method you use to present the message is offensive/wildly unpopular.

Its just people expressing their sexuality/creativity. I don't see why thats wrong.

Just a quick hint: you'll never get people to take you seriously or treat you as anything more than deviant fruitloops when you have displays like the above. It's just like flag burning: people ignore your message when the method you use to present the message is offensive/wildly unpopular.And whether people feel that this is right or wrong is largely irrelevant, because this ^ is exactly the attitude that emerges. Generally people don't mind you being gay, they just don't want it in our faces. Just like people generally don't care about any religious leanings one may have, they just don't really want one to show it much. Apathy is a lot harder to work with then downright disagreement.

Straight people will find it easier to get on with Wills rather than Jacks, but, for whatever reason, the public eye doesn't see the Wills as much, because that's not as good television; would Graham Norton have so many viewers if he was calmer, or a shade less brash/extravagant/any other applicable adjective?

http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_080.JPG
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_085.JPG
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_111.JPG
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_036A.JPG
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_033.JPG
http://trazen.org/im_images/gay_pride.jpg
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_025.JPG
http://www.sfgate.com/chronicle/pictures/2001/06/25/pride-210x267-parade.jpg
http://vision.poly.edu:8080/~xlu/photos/pride_angel.jpg

Where are the lesbians? :mad:

And whether people feel that this is right or wrong is largely irrelevant, because this ^ is exactly the attitude that emerges. Generally people don't mind you being gay, they just don't want it in our faces. Just like people generally don't care about any religious leanings one may have, they just don't really want one to show it much. Apathy is a lot harder to work with then downright disagreement.

Straight people will find it easier to get on with Wills rather than Jacks, but, for whatever reason, the public eye doesn't see the Wills as much, because that's not as good television; would Graham Norton have so many viewers if he was calmer, or a shade less brash/extravagant/any other applicable adjective?

Interesting, and I see heterosexuals push their 'lifestyle' when ever the opportunity arises; from show of affection in public, to the 100s of pictures of their rugrats on their desk.

If I were to give my boyfriend an affectionate hug and kiss in public, I'd get half the district turning around, pointing with some idiot screaming, "what abou that the kids! thats a bad example!".

How about getting some equal descrimination. If you have a problem with my boyfriend and I showing affection in public, in a non-over-the-top manner, I think the issue is with you, and not us.

But...given my Christian faith, I could* say myself that in fact the homosexuality is your problem, whether it's shown in a Will or a Jack-esque manner... d'you see where this discussion always ends up? Gays feel that they're not in the wrong. Christians (and plenty of non-Christians as well...) believe they are. And the discussion either ends abruptly, or spirals into name-calling/whatever, nobody wins.

*In fact, I don't say that. In my trips round the Bible looking about this particular topic, all the references I found were about male prostitutes and homosexual sex. So, in fact I find no problem with people being gay, especially important if (for example) there was fairly-conclusive evidence found linking homosexuality to some kind of internal biological factor. The... act (yeah, I'm too coy, I know) is clearly, and should always be however, a no-no; there's no good Christian argument for consumating a gay attraction.

http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_080.JPG
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http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_036A.JPG
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_033.JPG
http://trazen.org/im_images/gay_pride.jpg
http://www.ggbaloo.net/Gay%20Pride%2003/Gay_Pride%2003_025.JPG
http://www.sfgate.com/chronicle/pictures/2001/06/25/pride-210x267-parade.jpg
http://vision.poly.edu:8080/~xlu/photos/pride_angel.jpg

Tex... if you're having a problem with this, I'd suggest never coming to Burning Man.

Besides, if repressed, people tend to break out into some wild ideas of creatvity. The 60's as a reaction to the repression of the 50's (Or the 20's vs the Naughts and Teens) seem to be a good example of that.

Only as much as the fourth of july makes me proud of the united states

Besides, if repressed, people tend to break out into some wild ideas of creatvity. The 60's as a reaction to the repression of the 50's (Or the 20's vs the Naughts and Teens) seem to be a good example of that.

Thats an urban myth sprouted by homos and their supporters, the fiftys were anything but repressive.

[I haven't really read anything]

No. The whole pride crap is a reaction to the whole homophobic shit that gays encounter in other places, places that I don't live in and hope to never live in again.
Gays who are being discriminated against should move to somewhere that isn't in a time warp somewhere in the 1950s and get on with more important things. I did.
I respect older gays still in the whole proud thing, they're the ones who made places like Sydney livable for us, and I think they deserve to be proud of their accomplishments. Sydney has come a long way since 1970, and I congratulate all those involved. I suppose that's what something like Gay Pride Week should be about...
I dont know... while flamboyant and freaky people with accents and wear shirts like "Yes, I am" kind of grate on me, it's just a subculture and I respect their values and what they think it means to be gay. It's just crap when I'm expected to act like that by other gays, and when people get all homophobic simply because they dont like those kinds of people.
Personally, I'm not all that masculine. I hate football and most of my friends are girls, but i dont have an accent and i dont prance around and have rainbow flags hanging off my clothes. I go to Mardi Gras, but only because all my friends do.

Edit: Yeah I'm a Will.
I'm not going to read any more of this thread because homophobia just pisses me off real bad. Christians saying that gays are fine, they just shouldn't have sex; texans saying that we should all be shot; et fucking cetera. You're all dickheads. I've put up with it too much my whole life, I'm just happy to be in Sydney now and going to a school which is totally homophobic scum free.