NationStates Jolt Archive

Whats you opinion on taiwan? Should the US, and the world, reconize it as a country. and If we do should we put our soldiers in place to defend it?

oh and for our friends who don't know what taiwan is...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan

what no one gives a damn huh?


oh well too bad.... :headbang:

Having spoken to Taiwanese people (albeit not many) and given the reality of the situation, Taiwan is as much part of China as Africa.

I believe that Taiwan, known in political circles as the Republic of China, should be recognized by the US and her allies as an independent nation and that American soldiers, ships and aircraft should help them fend off any Chinese attacks.

~ Romandeos.

I believe that Taiwan, known in political circles as the Republic of China, should be recognized by the US and her allies as an independent nation and that American soldiers, ships and aircraft should help them fend off any Chinese attacks.

~ Romandeos.

but we would be protecting a nation against one of the most powerful armies on the world, there could be milions dead...

but you have to stand by your principals!!

I'm not to big on Eastern politics, so I haven't voted.

okay i guess its more of a moral question then... would you risk millions of your citizens to keep democracy and freedom, even for another country?,

I would but then again I'm an asshole..

If you listen to the Taiwanese they think China is part of Taiwan, a Chinese friend of mine says they're all crazy and no one takes them seriously.

As far as I know the story goes like this. After the fall of the variou Chinese Imperial Dynastys a Republic was set up in the early 20th century called the Republic of China (which included mainland China and Taiwan) Then in the late 40s a Communist Revolution swept China and the Republic of China became the People's Republic of China. Except Taiwan, the reolution never reached Taiwan and the government of the ROC went into exile there and have always claimed to be the legitimate rulers of China, of course the PRC consider Taiwan to be a part of the People's Republic so you have this odd situation where both parties think they own the other. Who is right? who knows?

I don't think Taiwan is worth a nuclear war so I say let the Chinese have there island

If you listen to the Taiwanese they think China is part of Taiwan, a Chinese friend of mine says they're all crazy and no one takes them seriously.

As far as I know the story goes like this. After the fall of the variou Chinese Imperial Dynastys a Republic was set up in the early 20th century called the Republic of China (which included mainland China and Taiwan) Then in the late 40s a Communist Revolution swept China and the Republic of China became the People's Republic of China. Except Taiwan, the reolution never reached Taiwan and the government of the ROC went into exile there and have always claimed to be the legitimate rulers of China, of course the PRC consider Taiwan to be a part of the People's Republic so you have this odd situation where both parties think they own the other. Who is right? who knows?

well your kinda right... the communist insurgency started much much earlier, but WWII weakened both side, but it hurt the republic more allowing for the communists to gain power. Once the ROC realised they couldn't win they went into exile to taiwan.

Recently most of taiwan's gov don't consider themselves part of china anymore and they want their own reconized country, independent of china. The real question here is if they do claim that they aren't part of china what do WE do? they are a democratic nation, with freedoms up to par with the US(I think), so what do we do?

the PRCs stance on the matter is that they are a wayward province who needs to brought back into their federal system of gov, (like a state that is part of the US, but doesn't affiliate itself with the US gov... kinda odd)...


Both sides have their militaries and the only reason why the PRC hasn't invaded is because their navy isn't strong enough (and america protects taiwan with its navy)...

I don't think Taiwan is worth a nuclear war so I say let the Chinese have there island

lol nuclear war? china has a couple dozen nukes, we got thousands they aren't going to risk having their mainland turn to glass, it would be a conventional war, but a costly one at that....

okay i guess its more of a moral question then... would you risk millions of your citizens to keep democracy and freedom, even for another country?,

I would but then again I'm an asshole..

It's not about democracy. We would trump it up as such to garner public support. What it really is, is protecting our interests (and an ally in this case) and asserting ourselves in Asia.

A war would be costly - yes, but it would be winnable. Let's also make it clear that in a war occupation isn't a necessity. Look at WW I where Germany was never invaded.

It's not about democracy. We would trump it up as such to garner public support. What it really is, is protecting our interests (and an ally in this case) and asserting ourselves in Asia.

A war would be costly - yes, but it would be winnable. Let's also make it clear that in a war occupation isn't a necessity. Look at WW I where Germany was never invaded.

no it is about democracy!, the only reason why we supported them was because they

A. weren't commies
B. are democratic

now are there many reasons why we support them? yes. but we also rely on china for trade(like 12% I think) and if we went to war our economy would be hurting so its not all about power....

Its meant as a moral question, what would you do?

Oh well, why not. Anyway, Taiwan is a special region -- different from mainland. Historically they have been settled by Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, and so on.
If they choose to be independant someday, why not. Independance is not just about ethnicity, it's also about a group of people having their own point of view on politics, civil rights and about themselves.

Sur they speak Chinese and have a lot in common with mainland China, but if you give them enough time, their society will become more and more unique and special, different. Let's call it "ethnic drifting". When two groups from the same society part their way and become gradually different.

lol nuclear war? china has a couple dozen nukes, we got thousands they aren't going to risk having their mainland turn to glass, it would be a conventional war, but a costly one at that....


So its not ok to let china have taiwan, but its ok to retaliate by killing hundreds of millions. God, nukes are far to dangerous to be left in the care of either the military or the politicians, we need to scrap them all, or at least limit them to the tactical low yield type

I shall do with Taiwan what Peter Griffin *Family Guy* did with Tibet.



MWHAHAHAHA! All the tea!

So its not ok to let china have taiwan, but its ok to retaliate by killing hundreds of millions. God, nukes are far to dangerous to be left in the care of either the military or the politicians, we need to scrap them all, or at least limit them to the tactical low yield type
okay for the last time... its not going to be nuclear, china isn't stupid, we have more and better technology, it would be a conventional war, your opinion on nukes notwithstanding.

Nukes are bad? YEAH DUH!!!!, but we live in an imperfect world and its a must if your a super power... so enough with the nuclear option, it won't happen.. it will be 100% conventional, and we would win. my point is that is it worth it? maybe millions would die(probably a lot less), is it worth it to die for anothers freedoms?

Thats all I got to say

(oh and personnaly I think it is worth it to die for ones ideals, give me liberty or give me death!.... man I love that quote!)

So its not ok to let china have taiwan, but its ok to retaliate by killing hundreds of millions. God, nukes are far to dangerous to be left in the care of either the military or the politicians, we need to scrap them all, or at least limit them to the tactical low yield type

But allow everyone else to (secretly) keep them? Whenever disarmament is pursued, the compliant nations are screwed because the nations like North Korea/China/Iran will still keep them and have more powerful ones.

Secondly, if we let China take Taiwan, they'll go for the Koreas, and the SE Asian nations, then Japan and so on. Appeasment does not work, and never has.

But allow everyone else to (secretly) keep them? Whenever disarmament is pursued, the compliant nations are screwed because the nations like North Korea/China/Iran will still keep them and have more powerful ones.

Secondly, if we let China take Taiwan, they'll go for the Koreas, and the SE Asian nations, then Japan and so on. Appeasment does not work, and never has.

Case and Point Pre-WWII....

oh yeah heres a link describing total war just incase anybody wants to read... very very interesting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_war

But allow everyone else to (secretly) keep them? Whenever disarmament is pursued, the compliant nations are screwed because the nations like North Korea/China/Iran will still keep them and have more powerful ones.

Secondly, if we let China take Taiwan, they'll go for the Koreas, and the SE Asian nations, then Japan and so on. Appeasment does not work, and never has.


thats horse crap, China is not some kind of "rogue state" they just want to reunite with Taiwan, not go on some kind of far eastern killing spree, leave that shit for the channel 5 B movies

In prison, Taiwan would be China's bitch.

Then the US would come and say 'stop picking on my buddy'. And then China and the USA would start a huge prison brawl that would get everybody involved. The UN prison guards would all be killed.

thats horse crap, China is not some kind of "rogue state" they just want to reunite with Taiwan, not go on some kind of far eastern killing spree, leave that shit for the channel 5 B movies

And Taiwan just wants it's independence because it knows it can't have mainland china back under its own government.

thats horse crap, China is not some kind of "rogue state" they just want to reunite with Taiwan, not go on some kind of far eastern killing spree, leave that shit for the channel 5 B movies

The Western nations also felt the same way about Hitler in Czechoslovakia (which was formerly part of Germany). The end result was the bloodiest war in world history.

China has as much right to Taiwan because both used to be part of China as the United States of America has rights to Ireland because both used to be part of Great Britain. The Maoists revolted against the Chinese government and established a new state called the People's Republic of China that included most of China except for a little island called Taiwan.

The world has a responsibility to defend the freedom of a democratic state from a corperate dictatorship. The US has a responsibility to itself to keep a great rival from gaining more domination over the south pacific.

Best-case scenario? Nuclear weapons with the capability to reach targets in China are given to Taiwan in large enough numbers to make for MAD. Like you would give a small person a gun to equalise them against a hostile large person, someone should arm Taiwan with enough firepower to equalise them against their enemy.

corperate dictatorship.
Corporate Dictatorship or Corrupt Dictatorship?

Corporate Dictatorship or Corrupt Dictatorship?

It's both.

Corporate Dictatorship or Corrupt Dictatorship?

Corperate. The state owns the economy, but it isn't communist, and the massive state-as-the-religion of fascism isn't present.

EDIT: But of course, you can't be a Corperate dictatorship without being corrupt...

But of course, you can't be a Corperate dictatorship without being corrupt...
Yes you can.

cor·rupt:
adj.

1. Marked by immorality and perversion; depraved.
2. Venal; dishonest: a corrupt mayor.

A dictatorship that runs like a 'Father Knows Best' state wouldn't be considered immoral or dishonest.

Yes you can.

A dictatorship that runs like a 'Father Knows Best' state wouldn't be considered immoral or dishonest.

Well, it depends on what the leadership believes is in its citizens' "best interests", which could be very immoral.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/taiwan-d-day.htm

Well we know China would be screwed if they tried to invade, and they're not crazy enough to start flinging nukes at the island nation, so at most they would probably try economic warfare against Taiwan and any allies, which would mean losing that nice big American market.

We could get into an argument about the precise definition of "corrupt", each quoting from different dictionaries and making fantastic posts about the meaning of corruption and whether all corperate dicatorships neccessarily have it.

Or, we could stay on topic.

Hmm....

We could get into an argument about the precise definition of "corrupt", each quoting from different dictionaries and making fantastic posts about the meaning of corruption and whether all corperate dicatorships neccessarily have it.

Nothing like a good semantics debate...er, back on topic.

Taiwans only useful to China as a bogeyman, it has no major resources etc. China has to be seen taking a hard line w. Taiman, as it has built T up into the enemy for years. Backing down would be seen as an unnacceptable loss of face by the big cheese. If T continues to move towards independence, the China has to act. The consequences of said action are still unkown
~This is Turquoise Days, reporting for BBC News, Taiwan ;)

I personally believe that we should aid our democratic allies. It's not like China would actually start a war with Taiwan if they knew that would mean war with the US. Given the Chinese have a strong military, but so do we. I believe that the Chinese would think twice before starting something that could be so destructive.

I personally believe that we should aid our democratic allies. It's not like China would actually start a war with Taiwan if they knew that would mean war with the US. Given the Chinese have a strong military, but so do we. I believe that the Chinese would think twice before starting something that could be so destructive.
True, they would have to think twice about it, but they would still have to do something, and that action could have far reaching consequenses.

Taiwan desrves to be recognized as a sovereign nation by the rest of the world. If that was done, China could save face at home by claiming the whole us vs. them mentality. 50 years of independence as a functioning democracy (well, not-so democratic) should certainly count for something. China is acting like a bully in this case. If the world were to recognize Taiwans sovereignity, and be willing to back it up, China would act like all bullies do, and run away whining, to lick its wounds.

What will you americans do is the californians one day start to think that they are so different from the people of the East Cost that they want to separate from the rest of the US and form the Republic of California. That is what happened between China and Taiwan.
I think is better for Taiwan to accept the “one China, two system” proposal as Honk Kong did.

50 years of independence as a functioning democracy (well, not-so democratic) should certainly count for something.
They have been democratic for less than 20 years if I remember well.


But hey, the concept of "final, permanent border" is very modern. People, nations evolve. Why wouldn't countries merge, split, collapse, emerge?

China's army may be huge, but that doesn't particularly matter, as their naval transport capacity is rather puny.

Thus, any invasion attempt by China would result in the Chinese Navy being sent to the bottom of the Taiwan Strait.

The USA has said time and time again that if Taiwan was attacked they would defend her.

I say: let the Chinese handle it (and by that I mean PRC and Taiwan - they're both Chinese).
Give them five or ten years and Taiwan's old guard (remembering that Kai-Chek was just as bad a dictator as Mao was) will be dead, and China will have changed to be more free and more capitalist. I'm sure the Taiwanese will be ready then to reunite.
The only problem is the US, where some Cold Warriors apparently are still frightened by the reds coming and eating their children. Or maybe, these days it's more racial than that..maybe it's just the fear of the yellow floods?

I say: let the Chinese handle it (and by that I mean PRC and Taiwan - they're both Chinese).

The only problem is the US, where some Cold Warriors apparently are still frightened by the reds coming and eating their children. Or maybe, these days it's more racial than that..maybe it's just the fear of the yellow floods?

That would work, as long as neither side attempts to use force.

The Cold War remnant is still going strong.. I mean, we still have a blockade on Cuba and just finalized relations with Vietnam! :rolleyes:

It's not about democracy. We would trump it up as such to garner public support. What it really is, is protecting our interests (and an ally in this case) and asserting ourselves in Asia.

A war would be costly - yes, but it would be winnable. Let's also make it clear that in a war occupation isn't a necessity. Look at WW I where Germany was never invaded.

Very true. I think that it wouldnt go nuclear. I would if I were a general pound China by air into surrender or peace negotiations. Millions would die either way though.

The USA has said time and time again that if Taiwan was attacked they would defend her.


This is why China hasnt invaded yet. I think they are waiting for a weak president. They tried to do it during Clintons years. But a carrier battle group dettered that attempt.

thats horse crap, China is not some kind of "rogue state" they just want to reunite with Taiwan, not go on some kind of far eastern killing spree, leave that shit for the channel 5 B movies

Yo. If China really wanted to be with Taiwan, they would have never given the island away to Japan.

Besides, do you REALLY want China to become the next economic superpower? If China fights the war correctly, they will have the largest semiconductor industry in their own hands. Japan doesn't want that. They already lose enough money to Taiwan. The last thing they need is China to suck more money in.

This is why China hasnt invaded yet. I think they are waiting for a weak president. They tried to do it during Clintons years. But a carrier battle group dettered that attempt.
Come on, yes, China doesn't like foreigners getting involved into internal affairs, but what would you say if Arnie declared himself independent and the Chinese declare they'd protect California at all costs. You'd be unhappy too.
But China has a government that's nothing of not realist. They know that they'd lose more than they'd gain if they attacked Taiwan, US military involved or not. They won't try anything stupid.

Yo. If China really wanted to be with Taiwan, they would have never given the island away to Japan.

True, i blame the manchurians (these guys who ruled china during the qing dynasty) for that.

True, i blame the manchurians (these guys who ruled china during the qing dynasty) for that.
"Give away"? Didn't they lose it in a war?

Taiwan deserves it's independance, however doing so would be an economic blow to China, and they want to protect their interests. If Taiwan broke off the ensuing war between the US and China would be terrible. The answer lies not with China or the US, it lies with the rest of the world. Europe needs to get off its ass and take a stand with Taiwan along with the US. The resulting coalition (and I don't mean coalition as in 500,000 American troops, 4 guys from Poland, and 1 guy from Bulgaria, I mean a real coalition) could be powerful enough to convince China that it's a lost cause.

Taiwan's independance should be protected, but the United States can't do it by itself.

Taiwan is a part of China as Hawaii is to America.
Correct me if I am wrong here but did not the Nationalists flee to Taiwan, along with all of China's money and treasures,with the intention of attacking the PRC when they had the chance?

Is it any wonder the Chinese are so irate. Imagine if all the loony right wing nutters in Texas, emptied the states coffers and pissed off to an small island. I cannot America supporting that.

Taiwan's independance should be protected, but the United States can't do it by itself.
Great, even more foreigners intervening in Chinese affairs. I think the EU should declare itself neutral in any case, as should the US. Let them sort it out by themselves.
And why is Taiwan independent in the first place? They're not a country, they're a breakaway province, the refuge of a bunch of rebels (of a fascist party) who were defeated in a civil war.

http://www.pritchettcartoons.com/cartoons/china2.gif

The principle at stake here is that a seperated country, can be taken over forcefully by the mother country. If the "ethnic vote" (quoted from Rene Levesque) hadn't given the 1% needed for Quebec to stay in Canada, could Canada have gone in and retaken Quebec by force (a Canadian civil war, what a crock...), subjugated its people, forced its economy into servitude, and pissed on, stomped on, and sh!t all over the basic rights of Quebec's citizens? That is exactly what will happen if China ever gets its hands on Taiwan again.

Military intervention might work, because though the Chinese have the world's largest army, their Navy is basically a small coastal-defense force. While the U.S. Navy, and the British Navy before them used battleships, and later aircraft carriers to "project" naval power onto the mainland, the sea-control posture of the old Soviet and Chinese navies effectively prevents them from carrying out major operations against land targets. Half the Chinese nuclear arsenal is on a lone Xia-Class SSBN (which is probably already being watched by American submarines, and can be sunk without much in the way of effort), and their missiles have suffered numerous launch accidents (surprise, surprise...). Also, the Asian countries, especially Japan, are the only other countries besides the USA that are pushing (and pushing VERY hard) for a ballistic missile-defense program. Sure, our current level of technology won't stop the thousands of missiles that Russia (or America, for that matter) have, they can stop 12 or so old, fragile launchers. Since Israel has Patriot PAC-3 missiles in place in the event of a ballistic missile attack, then surely Taiwan has them, or similar weapons. In the end, though, no nation wants to risk a nuclear exchange with any other nation. That lane is quite unlikely.

Correct me if I am wrong, but haven't the Taiwanese developed contingency plans in case China ever goes completely hostile? I am sure that any attempt at an amphibious or parachute (or both) invasion will cost China very dearly. The USA has supplied arms to Taiwan for years, as well as the protection of the Pacific Fleet's aircraft, cruise missiles, and submarines. The big question is if China is willing either to:

A) Invade Taiwan, and finally step over the line with ANOTHER human rights abuse, and piss off the world into economic sanctions, as well as incur massive losses of their own troops, and possible retribution from the USA

B) Nuke Taiwan, and commit national suicide now that they have their so-called "renegade province" back

C) Do nothing, and let us all continue nice and happy, the way we all were, thank you kindly.

I vote for C...

Come on, yes, China doesn't like foreigners getting involved into internal affairs, but what would you say if Arnie declared himself independent and the Chinese declare they'd protect California at all costs. You'd be unhappy too.
Not the same situation. There was a communist revolution that led to some of the bloodiest events in the 20th century. Said revolution never made it to Taiwan and the PRC never gained control. Quite different from elections. An analogue would be a communist revolution occuring in the US(not likely) and president Bush escaping to Hawaii and declaring that the new US.

ive always supported taiwan's independance (as opposed to the old days when one supported the nationalists as the legitimate government of china)

but since the success of hongkong being brought back into the chinese system i think its time for taiwan to do the same. they are chinese, they have always been chinese and yes they have many of the treasures of china.

its time to reunite.

Taiwan is a part of China as Hawaii is to America.
Correct me if I am wrong here but did not the Nationalists flee to Taiwan, along with all of China's money and treasures,with the intention of attacking the PRC when they had the chance?

Is it any wonder the Chinese are so irate. Imagine if all the loony right wing nutters in Texas, emptied the states coffers and pissed off to an small island. I cannot America supporting that.

Taiwan never wanted to be a part of China in the first place. There was a civil war, and the nationalists LOST. So the communists get their own country, and the republicans fled to Taiwan. It's similar to the Chechyna/Russia situation.

Besides, it was funny how Chaing Kai Shek took all the artifacts and treasures ^_^

Besides. Do you really want China to have more tech? And you don't realize, Hong Kong has been slowly sucked dry by China. Hong Kong did want their independence. But a very large army made them stay in China.

I'm a strong supporter of the ROC. They are a very free nation that the whole world ought to recognize. They are better than the backwards anti-human rights PRC.

ive always supported taiwan's independance (as opposed to the old days when one supported the nationalists as the legitimate government of china)

but since the success of hongkong being brought back into the chinese system i think its time for taiwan to do the same. they are chinese, they have always been chinese and yes they have many of the treasures of china.

its time to reunite.
Somehow Ashmoria, I doubt you would like to live under chinese rule. If you don't, why do you advocate it for the taiwanese?

Somehow Ashmoria, I doubt you would like to live under chinese rule. If you don't, why do you advocate it for the taiwanese?

:sniper:
Pwnt.

Seriously dude. If anything, I don't want to live in a country where what I type on the internet can get me FUCKING KILLED.

Not the same situation. There was a communist revolution that led to some of the bloodiest events in the 20th century. Said revolution never made it to Taiwan and the PRC never gained control. Quite different from elections. An analogue would be a communist revolution occuring in the US(not likely) and president Bush escaping to Hawaii and declaring that the new US.
a) Chiang Kai-Chek (sp?) was no less bloody than Mao.
b) It is the same thing. This is about national sovereignty, not about political ideologies, and not about elections.
c) Taiwan is historically part of China. "The PRC" is China, it is the direct successor of all the previous governments and dynasties, and thus Taiwan is part of it, too.

c) Taiwan is historically part of China. "The PRC" is China, it is the direct successor of all the previous governments and dynasties, and thus Taiwan is part of it, too.

Taiwan was a pirate island. And was given away to Japan.

Somehow Ashmoria, I doubt you would like to live under chinese rule. If you don't, why do you advocate it for the taiwanese?
because its gonna happen whether they want it or not. and because it hasnt been a disaster for hongkong (much to my surprise)

because its gonna happen whether they want it or not. and because it hasnt been a disaster for hongkong (much to my surprise)
Apparently you believe in fate then? As long as whichever fat fuck in the oval office isn't a complete coward stopping it's easy enough to keep from happening. Ultimatums are fun.

Apparently you believe in fate then? As long as whichever fat fuck in the oval office isn't a complete coward stopping it's easy enough to keep from happening. Ultimatums are fun.
Nuclear War is also fun.

TAIWAN WAS, IS, AND WILL BE CHINA'S LEGITIMATE TERRITORY - REGARDLESS OF THE STYLE AND TYPE OF GOVERNMENT RULING THE MAINLAND.

I suspect that the US is protecting Taiwan not to protect Taiwan, only to strengthen its own influence and limit's China's influence in Asia.

Apparently you believe in fate then? As long as whichever fat fuck in the oval office isn't a complete coward stopping it's easy enough to keep from happening. Ultimatums are fun.

we are already too thinly stretched to pick a fight with china. if china decided to take taiwan tomorrow we would probably let them.

as long as the chinese military doesnt decide its a matter of face to take taiwan by force, they will probably negotiate some kind of deal similar to what hongkong has.

TAIWAN WAS, IS, AND WILL BE CHINA'S LEGITIMATE TERRITORY - REGARDLESS OF THE STYLE AND TYPE OF GOVERNMENT RULING THE MAINLAND.

I suspect that the US is protecting Taiwan not to protect Taiwan, only to strengthen its own influence and limit's China's influence in Asia.
its a lingering remnant of the cold war. we protect taiwan because we supported the nationalists 55 years ago. so we cant stop NOW.

we dont want to lose face by letting taiwan go without a fight. but if it can be negotiated then its a win/win for everyone

its too little too late for taiwan to NOW decide they are a seperate country from the rest of china.

its a lingering remnant of the cold war. we protect taiwan because we supported the nationalists 55 years ago. so we cant stop NOW.

we dont want to lose face by letting taiwan go without a fight. but if it can be negotiated then its a win/win for everyone

its too little too late for taiwan to NOW decide they are a seperate country from the rest of china.

It's going to be stalemate forever unless something significant happens to change something significant.

TAIWAN WAS, IS, AND WILL BE CHINA'S LEGITIMATE TERRITORY - REGARDLESS OF THE STYLE AND TYPE OF GOVERNMENT RULING THE MAINLAND.

I suspect that the US is protecting Taiwan not to protect Taiwan, only to strengthen its own influence and limit's China's influence in Asia.
Ha, and I suppose that somewhere on the island the words PROPERTY OF CHINA are stamped somewhere in the ground? Bull-fucking-shit. Mao couldn't acquire it when he ripped across the rest of the country. Your side lost out. Get over it.

Ha, and I suppose that somewhere on the island the words PROPERTY OF CHINA are stamped somewhere in the ground? Bull-fucking-shit. Mao couldn't acquire it when he ripped across the rest of the country. Your side lost out. Get over it.

Well, show me a place in which "PROPERTY OF AMERICA" is stamped. Iraq? Washington DC??

its too little too late for taiwan to NOW decide they are a seperate country from the rest of china.
Actually, they previously held the opinion that the PRC was illegitimate. However, given their resources they finally(took them long enough) decided to "officially" cede the territory to china. They still own taiwan. The PRC has never had a large following on that island.

Well, show me a place in which "PROPERTY OF AMERICA" is stamped. Iraq? Washington DC??
Last time I checked we weren't claiming ownership of Iraq. And actually, it's written in thousands of property contracts across the US that the land is part of the US. Since the PRC never previously held a tangible part of the island and there are no contracts drawn up by the current owners of the land(the taiwanese) ceding said territory to the PRC the PRC's claims are null and void.

Actually, they previously held the opinion that the PRC was illegitimate. However, given their resources they finally(took them long enough) decided to "officially" cede the territory to china. They still own taiwan. The PRC has never had a large following on that island.
nooo it certainly hasnt had a big following in taiwan. but it didnt have a big following in hongkong either. or macao (that is part of china now too isnt it?)

i dont think it can stay a stalemate forever. the question is will it go by force or by negotiation.

nooo it certainly hasnt had a big following in taiwan. but it didnt have a big following in hongkong either. or macao (that is part of china now too isnt it?)

i dont think it can stay a stalemate forever. the question is will it go by force or by negotiation.
Yes, but the brits essentially owned the governance of Hong Kong and then gave it to the PRC. Same situation with macao but substitute the portuguese. Again, radically different situations than Taiwan's.

Last time I checked we weren't claiming ownership of Iraq. And actually, it's written in thousands of property contracts across the US that the land is part of the US. Since the PRC never previously held a tangible part of the island and there are no contracts drawn up by the current owners of the land(the taiwanese) ceding said territory to the PRC the PRC's claims are null and void.

Actually, most of the official and large commercial institutions still claim as being part of China the republic. Taiwanese independence is a rather new concept, but it's just a bunch of natives dreaming. Would you say yes if all the different Native American tribes wanted to secede from the Union?

Yes, but the brits essentially owned the governance of Hong Kong and then gave it to the PRC. Same situation with macao but substitute the portuguese. Again, radically different situations than Taiwan's.
No. If the Americans return Taiwan to China China would glady accept.

No. If the Americans return Taiwan to China China would glady accept.
Sorry bud, the taiwanese ain't listed as a protectorate so no can do. Wouldn't anyway.

Yes, but the brits essentially owned the governance of Hong Kong and then gave it to the PRC. Same situation with macao but substitute the portuguese. Again, radically different situations than Taiwan's.

Agreed. No one is going to be giving Taiwan to China. If they want to offically go back then they will have to do it on their own. However I do believe that if China does have to take the island by force, they will find themselves facing a large number of opponents... hopefully.

The truth is, I dont believe a war will actualy ever occur.. at least not for a while anyways. I also have a suspicion that If we were forced to go to war with China, that we would have some support on the inside... just a theory.

Actually, most of the official and large commercial institutions still claim as being part of China the republic.



Taiwanese independence is a rather new concept, but it's just a bunch of natives dreaming. Would you say yes if all the different Native American tribes wanted to secede from the Union?
Let me guess, the companies that claim this get to do business with the PRC and the ones that don't, don't.


Taiwanese independence is a relatively new concept, but only, as I stated before, because the nationalists were still claiming that the PRC was illegitimate and that the mainland was still technically theirs. However, Taiwan has never been under control of the PRC and it is not governed by europeans.

If Taiwan ever declares independence (which they one day will), China WILL act. I don't know what kind of world some of you live in with this China is not stupid they know better than to go to war with U.S. rhetoric. China has openly stated that if Taiwan declares independence, it will endure any loss both civil,military, and economic in order to preserve their sovereignty. If you don't believe that China is gearing up for a show down with the United States then you better take a good look at many of their strategic moves. They are purchasing more submarines (kilo and romeo class) from Russia as well as developing their own. They are doing this because they know Taiwan and the United States have surface superiority. They also stole satellite technology from one of our labs (Los Alamos) that is used by our own forces to track our submarine fleet. Geeee I wonder why? They are heavily upgrading their navy and missible capabilities as well as modernizing their army with conventional weapons. Wanna talk fuel? In a full scale war, China has enough oil to last them a little over a month, hence they are making major moves to secure bases along a shipping route from the middle east to their own ports. They call this a "pearl of strings" defense against "pirates" that "hijack" cargo ships. We all know they are setting up defenses to protect their oil supply. China has also purchased a 50 year lease of the Panama Canal, which is going to be a very big problem if the Atlantic fleet ever needs to reinforce the Pacific fleet. If China went to war they would lose many, their economics would lose BIG money from it's trade with the U.S. and other nations, and their nation as a whole might end up in very bad shape...but do not underestimate the Chinese. They WILL not back down. It will be one of the toughest, if not THE toughest battle/war our country has seen.

China has also purchased a 50 year lease of the Panama Canal, which is going to be a very big problem if the Atlantic fleet ever needs to reinforce the Pacific fleet.

Yes... cant believe we let that one slip by.. huge mistake unfortunately.

However I am still inclined to believe that China is more talk then anything. Remember that these preperations could just be for show as well. We'll never truly find out until it happens... if it happens.

In any case... I have a sudden urge to play bf2 :p

I don't get it. What's so wrong with reclaiming something that was originally yours??

The PRC government may not have owned Taiwan, but Taiwan is part of a larger entity. China is good enough to be called a "nation" and "people". Taiwan is part of the "nation" concept.

Sorry bud, the taiwanese ain't listed as a protectorate so no can do. Wouldn't anyway.

If Washington stops trying to please both sides and go for Beijing, the Taiwanese independence movement would melt.

The PRC government may not have owned Taiwan, but Taiwan is part of a larger entity. China is good enough to be called a "nation" and "people". Taiwan is part of the "nation" concept.
Exactly. What is it with you people and "PRC" and Communists. It's not about that, it is about China as a whole. Think of the Communist Party as just another dynasty, ignore the politics, and you might get the picture.
Taiwan is part of China. Full Stop. Whether or not it is part of the PRC is irrelevant, for it is part of the nation, the people, the country.
I can completely understand China being angered by foreigners getting involved in this issue, because it really is none of their business, be they American, European or Vietnamese for that matter.