NationStates Jolt Archive

As of June 24, 3:28 CDT, the income breakdown on my little poll was thus:

Under $15,000 US 14 16.87%
$15,000 - $20,000 5 6.02%
$20,000 - $25,000 5 6.02%
$25,000 - $30,000 4 4.82%
$30,000 - $50,000 10 12.05%
$50,000 - $75,000 13 15.66%
$75,000 - $100,000 9 10.84%
$100,000 - $150,000 10 12.05%
$150,000 - $200,000 4 4.82%
$200,000 + 9 10.84%
Total voters 83 100.00%

Two respondents misread the question and under-voted income by not including Parental/Scholarship/Grant income.

55 of the 81 voters (68%) claim to have at or greater than the Y2K median US income (28K-59K, 42K av.) (U.S. Census Bureau, Current Population Reports, P60-213, Money Income in the United States: 2000, U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, DC, 2001.)

Ok, here's the rant.

I see an awful lot of "More Taxes!" socialism here on NS, yet it is relatively clear from the above that the majority of NSers are nowhere near low enough on the income scale to either (A) see the "benefits" of such policies or (B) get materially hurt by a confiscatory tax policy.

My wife & I are barely above the "poverty level" in the US - yet we see almost no benefit from the Great Society "welfare" programs that I still have to pay for out of my 17% tax rate. Despite rhetoric to the contrary, tax increases HURT me more than they help (every "tax increase on the "rich" has raised my taxes too...). Less taxes means more money in my shallow pocket, and more of the money spent (rather than taxed or sheltered) by those with deep pockets can make it to people in my position.

It seems to me that an awful lot of people trying to "help" have no experiential basis for understanding the "plight of the poor" (the "working poor" in particular). I've been homeless - furtively living in a spare room that I happened to have the key for. I've been unemployed (save the subsistence Temp Labor Job) for years at a time - even after I indebted myself for a degree. I live with the daily stress of an uninsurable, chronically ill/medicated spouse. But I work my arse off to make what money I get and I really get fed up with people telling me what I should do with what little money I have. (Please Tax me to bribe the Middle East into being nice... :rolleyes: )

Before you go and try to lay some sort of Guilt Trip on people like me for being Fiscal Conservatives, think for a minute about how little you really know about what you are trying to "help". What would help me is not getting passed over for employment because there are too many 35+ year old White Guys at a particular firm (the polite term is "over-qualified"...). What would help me is not having to pay 17% of my income to support "programs" that I too busy working to be eligible for. What would help me is not having to worry about having some liberal ninny fire/not hire me for my political beliefs ("creating a hostile work environment" - even though they are the only hostile ones... ).

What would help me is for Big Government Politicians and "helpful busybodies" to just leave me the hell alone and let me earn a living.

Ok... I'm done ranting. (It's been a bad week at the search for a meaningful professional job with decent pay...)

Just tell people what a nice young man I met at the Texas Dem Convention last summer said to a group of us: "Hell yes I'm fiscally conservative! I can't afford to give anything away!"

Made me chuckle.

As of June 24, 3:28 CDT, the income breakdown on my little poll was thus:

Under $15,000 US 14 16.87%
$15,000 - $20,000 5 6.02%
$20,000 - $25,000 5 6.02%
$25,000 - $30,000 4 4.82%
$30,000 - $50,000 10 12.05%
$50,000 - $75,000 13 15.66%
$75,000 - $100,000 9 10.84%
$100,000 - $150,000 10 12.05%
$150,000 - $200,000 4 4.82%
$200,000 + 9 10.84%
Total voters 83 100.00%

Two respondents misread the question and under-voted income by not including Parental/Scholarship/Grant income.

55 of the 81 voters (68%) claim to have at or greater than the Y2K median US income (28K-59K, 42K av.) (U.S. Census Bureau, Current Population Reports, P60-213, Money Income in the United States: 2000, U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, DC, 2001.)

Ok, here's the rant.

I see an awful lot of "More Taxes!" socialism here on NS, yet it is relatively clear from the above that the majority of NSers are nowhere near low enough on the income scale to either (A) see the "benefits" of such policies or (B) get materially hurt by a confiscatory tax policy.

My wife & I are barely above the "poverty level" in the US - yet we see almost no benefit from the Great Society "welfare" programs that I still have to pay for out of my 17% tax rate. Despite rhetoric to the contrary, tax increases HURT me more than they help (every "tax increase on the "rich" has raised my taxes too...). Less taxes means more money in my shallow pocket, and more of the money spent (rather than taxed or sheltered) by those with deep pockets can make it to people in my position.

It seems to me that an awful lot of people trying to "help" have no experiential basis for understanding the "plight of the poor" (the "working poor" in particular). I've been homeless - furtively living in a spare room that I happened to have the key for. I've been unemployed (save the subsistence Temp Labor Job) for years at a time - even after I indebted myself for a degree. I live with the daily stress of an uninsurable, chronically ill/medicated spouse. But I work my arse off to make what money I get and I really get fed up with people telling me what I should do with what little money I have. (Please Tax me to bribe the Middle East into being nice... :rolleyes: )

Before you go and try to lay some sort of Guilt Trip on people like me for being Fiscal Conservatives, think for a minute about how little you really know about what you are trying to "help". What would help me is not getting passed over for employment because there are too many 35+ year old White Guys at a particular firm (the polite term is "over-qualified"...). What would help me is not having to pay 17% of my income to support "programs" that I too busy working to be eligible for. What would help me is not having to worry about having some liberal ninny fire/not hire me for my political beliefs ("creating a hostile work environment" - even though they are the only hostile ones... ).

What would help me is for Big Government Politicians and "helpful busybodies" to just leave me the hell alone and let me earn a living.

Ok... I'm done ranting. (It's been a bad week at the search for a meaningful professional job with decent pay...)
what are you talking about? how is anyone in the US paying 17% income tax when they are "just above the poverty line"? my family makes somewhere around the average for american families and we pay just about 10% after all the deductions (which are nothing but standard) state income tax.....i think its around 3% after adjustments.

what are you talking about? how is anyone in the US paying 17% income tax when they are "just above the poverty line"? my family makes somewhere around the average for american families and we pay just about 10% after all the deductions (which are nothing but standard) state income tax.....i think its around 3% after adjustments.
17% total taxes. I plan my withholding very carefully so I don't get anything back (+/- $25) from the Feds. The State COSTS me money each year, so it's still a net loss. What gets withheld from my cheque is GONE - to the tune of 17% of the gross.

17% total taxes. I plan my withholding very carefully so I don't get anything back (+/- $25) from the Feds. The State COSTS me money each year, so it's still a net loss. What gets withheld from my cheque is GONE - to the tune of 17% of the gross.
im perplexed..

i didnt notice what you make a yaer but lets say its $30,000/year
standard dedction is around 10k, personal is around 3k/person that leaves you 14k/year taxed at... what the lowest rate now....12%.. i dont know, lets say its the 15% is was when bush took office. that gives you a tax of..2100 dollars... which is...7% ...

My husband loses 30+% of every paycheck to taxes. We have also had the problem of chronic illness, which is coming to an end thankfully.

State and local taxes are crappy too. When I vote no on a referendum to raise taxes so some school can build an even BIGGER gym or a pool, I get pissed. That garbage always passes.

Yes, we need taxes to pay for infrastructure. As of now our state is so in debt it's ridiculous. The Gov doesn't give a shit, because, like a family tradition, he just passes the debt to the next gov., and he'll be gone.

Gee, kind of sounds like the Federal deficeit.

Damn I'm getting in a pissy mood now.

Syniks, we haven't had it nearly as hard as you have, and I wish you the best of luck in finding work and getting things together. :) :fluffle: (Thought you needed the fluffle.)

I guess maybe I've never really thought of myself as poor. I've always had family, I've always been able to eat, I've always had a gerbil to run in the wheel and keep my computer running.

I've always thought of income as inconsequential. I have noticed, though, that the more you make, the more you seem to be in debt. Perhaps there's something to that, eh?

I guess if I had to compare income levels to other people, I'd be pretty poor.

I voted in the 30-50k range and we're a family of six on a single income. I guess I am poor by that standard.

No wait ... no I'm not. I just have less money. Who cares about money?

im perplexed..

i didnt notice what you make a yaer but lets say its $30,000/year
standard dedction is around 10k, personal is around 3k/person that leaves you 14k/year taxed at... what the lowest rate now....12%.. i dont know, lets say its the 15% is was when bush took office. that gives you a tax of..2100 dollars... which is...7% ...
You forget SocialInsecurity - The US's "Favorite Regressive Tax"(tm) :rolleyes:

Of my $780 biweekly check I am allowed to keep $649.48 - that's $130.52 withheld. 130.52 is .16733333 (17%) of 780. I get none of it back at the end of the year. $3393.52 extra each year would go a long way in my world.

I guess maybe I've never really thought of myself as poor. I've always had family, I've always been able to eat, I've always had a gerbil to run in the wheel and keep my computer running.

I've always thought of income as inconsequential. I have noticed, though, that the more you make, the more you seem to be in debt. Perhaps there's something to that, eh?

I guess if I had to compare income levels to other people, I'd be pretty poor.

I voted in the 30-50k range and we're a family of six on a single income. I guess I am poor by that standard.

No wait ... no I'm not. I just have less money. Who cares about money?


If you have enough for food, shelter, clothing, etc. AND HEALTH INSURANCE, you'll be OK.

Of my $780 biweekly check I am allowed to keep $649.48 - that's $130.52 withheld. 130.52 is .16733333 (17%) of 780. I get none of it back at the end of the year. $3393.52 extra each year would go a long way in my world.

I know you're ignoring me ... but have you considered drug dealing? :D ;)

If you have enough for food, shelter, clothing, etc. AND HEALTH INSURANCE, you'll be OK.

We only ever maintain insurance on the kids, not for ourselves. Health insurance for kids is surprisingly cheap.

We did spend 7 months on the Lonestar Card (Texas equivalent of food stamps), but since I grow almost all the family's veggies, we got off that pretty quick. It was a bad year that year, though. Hellish summer killed everything I tried to grow.

You forget SocialInsecurity - The US's "Favorite Regressive Tax"(tm) :rolleyes:

Of my $780 biweekly check I am allowed to keep $649.48 - that's $130.52 withheld. 130.52 is .16733333 (17%) of 780. I get none of it back at the end of the year. $3393.52 extra each year would go a long way in my world.
beats me. although you did seem to be talking about programs you cant ever use so social security/medicare shouldnt count. the fica/medicare tax is 7.65%

you only make 20K/year?? that is an income tax rate of 3% after deductions assuming you dont have children or extra income. maybe you need a new tax preparer

beats me. although you did seem to be talking about programs you cant ever use so social security/medicare shouldnt count. the fica/medicare tax is 7.65%And what makes you think I will ever get to use SS/Medicare? Unless they raise the taxes (oh boy, how helpful) it won't be there when I'm 65.

you only make 20K/year?? that is an income tax rate of 3% after deductions assuming you dont have children or extra income. maybe you need a new tax preparerYou don't need a tax preparer for 1040A or EZ. (not enough assets to justify the Long Form) I do them both and pick the one that costs the least.

The fact remains that no matter how you slice it, 17% of my gross income is confiscated by various government agencies.

We only ever maintain insurance on the kids, not for ourselves. Health insurance for kids is surprisingly cheap.

We did spend 7 months on the Lonestar Card (Texas equivalent of food stamps), but since I grow almost all the family's veggies, we got off that pretty quick. It was a bad year that year, though. Hellish summer killed everything I tried to grow.

Wow... If I didn't have health insurance, we'd be at least a quarter mil in debt, if not more. Growing veggies... that's a neat idea. We're having a mega hot summer 97 today bleah, and have had no rain... and it also floods becase (it's true) we live over what was once a swamp. What veggies can take that! Drowning and drying out completely?

Last year, we had basement floods and an underground aquafer open up into our basement! Yes, a fountain coming out of our basement! So then here come the waterproofing contractors. Do you know how much that cost?! *faints* And then they jackhammered our new driveway. One window is over $600. AAAAAAAAAARGH!!!

And with gas prices the way they are... My husband drives one hour ONE WAY to work each day. Two hours of hwy driving every day. I am unable to work at the mo. So I spend my time bitching about this stuff on the forums... :D I have to admit, if we didn't get some help from our family, we'd be bankrupt.

I know you're ignoring me ... but have you considered drug dealing? :D ;)

I know you're joking, but DON'T GO THERE!!!! :eek:

Syniks. What type of work are looking for? Have you considered moving away from where you live to find work or not? (A difficult decision)

Ashmoria: He is paying 17% of his income, limited though it is, to the government in various forms. That is unacceptable. Income tax is not the only tax, try payroll tax.

Wow... If I didn't have health insurance, we'd be at least a quarter mil in debt, if not more. <snip> That is the only advantage to working my butt off for no pay... We got "charity" writeoffs for my wife's hospital stays. We made good faith payments until they wrote them off, but WITH health insurance (at least the kind I might have been able to afford) I would have been in worse shape...

I have to admit, if we didn't get some help from our family, we'd be bankrupt.And that's why I'm the office "do-it-all" for my father's small architectural firm while I look for work in the Chicago area. I'd be another $2K in debt if they hadn't paid for the move...

Wow... If I didn't have health insurance, we'd be at least a quarter mil in debt, if not more. Growing veggies... that's a neat idea. We're having a mega hot summer 97 today bleah, and have had no rain... and it also floods becase (it's true) we live over what was once a swamp. What veggies can take that! Drowning and drying out completely?


Well my wife and I are blessed with being amazingly healthy and we've passed it on to the kids. They almost never get sick ... I think we've been to the doctor twice in the last 8 years.

As for the veggies, it was a bad summer. No rain, no clouds, and temps in the 100 teens for 20 days straight. Texas declared an emergency, which we took advantage of to pay our cooling bill.

Last year, we had basement floods and an underground aquafer open up into our basement! Yes, a fountain coming out of our basement!

Gah! I don't even want to think about that. Fortunately basements don't exist in S. Texas. ;)

And with gas prices the way they are...

Oy ... tell me about it. My wife has gone back to college and she drives a good 60 miles per day during the school year ... and we own a 22 mpg mini-van! (you do the math on 5 days per week)

Fortunately, she's got great grades and gets some scholarships, but she still needs some student loans ... which we'll be paying off until we're 60. (weeeeeeee!)

I know you're joking, but DON'T GO THERE!!!! :eek:


Yes yes ... of course I am joking.

However, and this is serious, and someone quote me on it because Syniks is ignoring me (my fault for pretending to be in the Army) ...

I bet dollars to doughnuts Syniks can provide firearm safety courses for some extra money.

Yes yes ... of course I am joking.
However, and this is serious, and someone quote me on it because Syniks is ignoring me (my fault for pretending to be in the Army) ...
Thank you for finally admitting that publicly. Some things are too important to BS about. I will let the issue drop.
I bet dollars to doughnuts Syniks can provide firearm safety courses for some extra money.
I've actually looked into that. Unfortunately the gun ranges here are all private and have their own courses &/or liability concerns.

I have a few other "non-traditional" things I'm looking into too, but when it really comes down to it I'm an excellent employee but a lousy boss.

what are you talking about? how is anyone in the US paying 17% income tax when they are "just above the poverty line"? my family makes somewhere around the average for american families and we pay just about 10% after all the deductions (which are nothing but standard) state income tax.....i think its around 3% after adjustments.
OMG. I have to move to the states. At those rates I'd be paying somewhere around 10,000 to 15,000 less in taxes each year.

Syniks: Until a little over a year ago, I was forced to settle for 2 meals a day, because I couldn't afford 3. I know how it feels seeing your hard earned money essentialy eavaporate into thin air. I think the tax structure has to be re-evaluated, especially when people who work their asses off just to put a roof on their heads and food on the table are forced to give money to the Gov't, money that would otherwise make their lives a damn sight easier.

Maybe corporations should stop getting such huige tax breaks, and instead the working poor ( there are a lot of them out there) could get those tax breaks instead.

<snip>
Maybe corporations should stop getting such huge tax breaks, and instead the working poor (there are a lot of them out there) could get those tax breaks instead.I'm for eliminating ALL "tax breaks" and going for a flat, non-negotiable tax for EVERYBODY - from Corps to Churches to Schlubs like me. If nobody could hide their income, 5% from everybody would pretty well cover things IMO.

Thank you for finally admitting that publicly. Some things are too important to BS about. I will let the issue drop.

Dude, my father and grandfather were US Army ... I have too much respect for them (and all those who serve) to keep that up very long. For the record: No, I was not in the Army. Hell ... I was never even a Boy Scout.

But my father's mother was a full blooded Caddo, damnit. :p

I've actually looked into that. Unfortunately the gun ranges here are all private and have their own courses &/or liability concerns.


Too bad you don't live in Texas, man. A fee and a simple course of instruction - which I know you'd pass - and you can be a certified firearm safety instructor. You could be instructor to those who pay $300 (safety course + DPS fee).

I've logged countless hours in the firing range on many different types of sidearms and shotguns (I am shit with a rifle, I'll admit that) but sold all of my weapons except for swords when my kids began to get old enough to get into things. Not a hippie thing, just a "okie I've got 1,000 different other things to teach my kids, I can't include the firearms thing right now" thing.

Seems a shame. Everyone should do what they love. You know firearms ... surely there's a way to get you into it with profit.

I'm for eliminating ALL "tax breaks" and going for a flat, non-negotiable tax for EVERYBODY - from Corps to Churches to Schlubs like me. If nobody could hide their income, 5% from everybody would pretty well cover things IMO.

Thats EXACTLY what I think would be a good solution. It bugs me though that anyone who expresses this is labelled a Libertarian. Whatever happened to plain old common sense? We are all perfectly capable of forming our own opinions about an issue without any regard to some BS political doctrine.

<snip>Seems a shame. Everyone should do what they love. You know firearms ... surely there's a way to get you into it with profit.Well, I WAS doing what I loved untill I got caught in a Clinton Era military cutback...

Then I had the audacity to believe the rhetoric that a Bachelor's degree would help me when looking for work. What I found out was that 4 years of School & Temping = "unemployed for 4 years" to corporate recruiters. (If you are 21 and getting out of school, that's OK, but when you are 33... and your background is 6 years of blowing things up followed by 4 years of "unemployment"... you somehow become "overqualified" for every entry-level job but "underqualified" for management.

I've been fighting this battle for 5 years now, and it hasn't gotten any better.

OMG. I have to move to the states. At those rates I'd be paying somewhere around 10,000 to 15,000 less in taxes each year.

i wouldnt count on that. are you married? do you have kids? most of my income falls under the 15% tax rate (the 10% is after deductions) after...58K (as a couple, 29k as a single) it goes to 25% and its 28% after 70k maxing out at 35% at 300k.

its my understanding that the $200/month you would pay for health insurance would eat up the rest of your savings.

Well, I WAS doing what I loved untill I got caught in a Clinton Era military cutback...

Well it looks like the Bush era cutbacks to pay for this little desert excercise may be worse. ;)


I've been fighting this battle for 5 years now, and it hasn't gotten any better.

Look man ... I'm tellin' ya ... come to Texas. Or at least to Virginia (or is it W. Virginia?). There are still some places in the states that the hippies haven't corrupted yet.

Dude ... you can even crash on my couch. (Though you'll have to leave your weapons in storage ... sorry .. I'm the dad ... I get to teach them :D )

Thats EXACTLY what I think would be a good solution. It bugs me though that anyone who expresses this is labelled a Libertarian. Whatever happened to plain old common sense? We are all perfectly capable of forming our own opinions about an issue without any regard to some BS political doctrine.

And the wealthy invest their money in offshore accounts, etc., and don't pay their share. My sister is looking into doing this.

Thats EXACTLY what I think would be a good solution. It bugs me though that anyone who expresses this is labelled a Libertarian. Whatever happened to plain old common sense?I always thought "common sense" in government is what being a Libertarian was all about... :p
We are all perfectly capable of forming our own opinions about an issue without any regard to some BS political doctrine.Heh. You have just cited the Libertarian political doctrine... (such as it is) :D

And the wealthy invest their money in offshore accounts, etc., and don't pay their share. My sister is looking into doing this.
The point being that at 5% they wouldn't feel the need to do that. Plus, you make it 5% on income - period. No deductions, no exclusions, no shelters, no "tax free bonds", nothing. Scratch the tax code in its entirety. If you make X, send in .05X. Let me decide where and how I save for retirement instead of sucking away money I'll never see again. Hell, I can do better than SocialInsecurity by buying 18mo CDs.

Syniks. What type of work are looking for? Have you considered moving away from where you live to find work or not? (A difficult decision) Any more, I really don't know what I'm looking for. What I'm best at is research/answering questions/coming up with unique solutions to sticky marketing/PR problems. However, after graduating with a degree in PR/corp. communications & Ethics, then looking for a PR job in Washington (state) for 3 years, I moved to the Chicago to start looking in the midwest. I've only been here for 2 years - but I have to split my time between my bookkeeping/office support job, job hunting and NS. :p

Moving is very hard on my wife. Every time we do it she ends up back on the psych ward getting her meds readjusted (manic-depressive/schitzoaffective disorders). Adds about $10K to any move we make.

the problem, as i see it, is compromise:

with much lower tax rates, we would all have more money in our pockets, and would theoretically be able to pay for every personal need (shelter, food, medical bills, education, whatever) ourselves.
pros: more money to spend how we choose
cons: no one to bail us out if things go awry

with much higher tax rates, we would have less money in our pockets, but we would have fewer things to pay for (school, health, whatever).
pros: a big brother (hehehe) to help us out if things arent going well
cons: less money for us to spend how we choose

with our current tax rates, we get the wonders of big gov't beauracracy without the lovely world such gov't promises. we pay just enough money to get screwed if we're ever in a tight spot, but not enough money to have someone there to help us out if need be. i love America, but damn if that isnt a crappy system.

compromise sucks.

The point being that at 5% they wouldn't feel the need to do that. Plus, you make it 5% on income - period. No deductions, no exclusions, no shelters, no "tax free bonds", nothing. Scratch the tax code in its entirety. If you make X, send in .05X. Let me decide where and how I save for retirement instead of sucking away money I'll never see again. Hell, I can do better than SocialInsecurity by buying 18mo CDs.

Any more, I really don't know what I'm looking for. What I'm best at is research/answering questions/coming up with unique solutions to sticky marketing/PR problems. However, after graduating with a degree in PR/corp. communications & Ethics, then looking for a PR job in Washington (state) for 3 years, I moved to the Chicago to start looking in the midwest. I've only been here for 2 years - but I have to split my time between my bookkeeping/office support job, job hunting and NS. :p

Moving is very hard on my wife. Every time we do it she ends up back on the psych ward getting her meds readjusted (manic-depressive/schitzoaffective disorders). Adds about $10K to any move we make.

Ouch. I have Manic-Depression myself. Came pretty close to going in the psych ward last I moved. I know quite a few poeple who have the same diagnosis as your wife (funny how we Mental Patients have our own subculture) so I have a good iea what move would be like for her. Of course, up here, I do benefit from my taxes...I wouldn't be dinged 10K just for having a bad month or three, just lose some income.

Have you considered going in business for yourself? Don't know what it's like down there, but here there are some good programs, both public and private, for helping people with low incomes start a business. I almost did so myself until this incredible job practicly dropped itself in my lap. You've certainly demonstrated the kind of smarts and perseverance it takes to go into business. Although that itself would bring stresses into your hom,e which may afffect your wife.
Though I suspect that like most of us crazy people, she's capable of showing amazing and surprising strength when the chips are down. Having a cause like helpping someone we love acheive a dream seems to give us that extra little bit of oomph when we'd otherwise be having problems.

As for Libertarianism, I'm still a little too much of a socialist to really get behind that creed. Maybe if I lived in a land where I payed taes but saw no benfits come of it, I'd be singing a different tune. I prefer the term Socialy Conscious. Socialism in general has too many pitfalls, certainly.

If I did move to the states, I'd certainly donate a great deal more to charity, taking it from the money I'd save on taxes, which I understand is one of the tenets of Libertarianism: When people pay less taxes, they aremuch more likely to support private charities.

i wouldnt count on that. are you married? do you have kids? most of my income falls under the 15% tax rate (the 10% is after deductions) after...58K (as a couple, 29k as a single) it goes to 25% and its 28% after 70k maxing out at 35% at 300k.

its my understanding that the $200/month you would pay for health insurance would eat up the rest of your savings.

I wouldn't be paying any extra 200$ for health insurance...my feild is dangerous enough as it is (nasty chemicals like cyanide and bismuth white, geysers of molten metal when a casting goes wrong, silicosis, etc)...they couldn't hire anyone to work if they didn't provide a good health plan...I know this from talking to counterparts in the US.

Converted to USD, I'm in the 50k to 75k category and I'm single. no kids. What tax bracket would that fall into? I'm just on the shy side of the 40% bracket up here in Canaduh, after deductions, so I suspect I'd still be saving a bundle. Theres a handful of foundries stateside that I'd love to work for...I applied to couple recently...got a couple interviews, but thats it. I'm already about 800 miles away from my immediate family...so another 500 to 1000 would be moot.

I wouldn't be paying any extra 200$ for health insurance...my feild is dangerous enough as it is (nasty chemicals like cyanide and bismuth white, geysers of molten metal when a casting goes wrong, silicosis, etc)...they couldn't hire anyone to work if they didn't provide a good health plan...I know this from talking to counterparts in the US.

Converted to USD, I'm in the 50k to 75k category and I'm single. no kids. What tax bracket would that fall into? I'm just on the shy side of the 40% bracket up here in Canaduh, after deductions, so I suspect I'd still be saving a bundle. Theres a handful of foundries stateside that I'd love to work for...I applied to couple recently...got a couple interviews, but thats it. I'm already about 800 miles away from my immediate family...so another 500 to 1000 would be moot.
welllll say you made 70k
4800 standard deduction +3000 personal (if you would own your own home the mortgage interest could up your deductions if its over 4800)
sooooo on 62k ....800 on the first 8000, 3300 on the rest up to 29,0000 and 25% on the rest for .....8250 thats 12,350 plus 7.65% of 70k another 5300... 17,650...you might have state and city income taxes also. but thats an effective rate of around 25%.

my husband works for a billion dollar health product corporation and we have to pay i think $80/paycheck for health insurance. your company may provide it but you may still have to pay for it. (i wouldnt know eh?)

im pretty sure you would have to pay the social security/ medicare tax but you wouldnt get your money back unless you became a citizen or at least lived here in your retirement years.

your job sounds pretty scary.

Ouch. I have Manic-Depression myself. Came pretty close to going in the psych ward last I moved. I know quite a few poeple who have the same diagnosis as your wife (funny how we Mental Patients have our own subculture) so I have a good iea what move would be like for her. Of course, up here, I do benefit from my taxes...I wouldn't be dinged 10K just for having a bad month or three, just lose some income.

Have you considered going in business for yourself? Don't know what it's like down there, but here there are some good programs, both public and private, for helping people with low incomes start a business. I almost did so myself until this incredible job practicly dropped itself in my lap. You've certainly demonstrated the kind of smarts and perseverance it takes to go into business. Although that itself would bring stresses into your hom,e which may afffect your wife.
Though I suspect that like most of us crazy people, she's capable of showing amazing and surprising strength when the chips are down. Having a cause like helpping someone we love acheive a dream seems to give us that extra little bit of oomph when we'd otherwise be having problems.

As for Libertarianism, I'm still a little too much of a socialist to really get behind that creed. Maybe if I lived in a land where I payed taes but saw no benfits come of it, I'd be singing a different tune. I prefer the term Socialy Conscious. Socialism in general has too many pitfalls, certainly.

If I did move to the states, I'd certainly donate a great deal more to charity, taking it from the money I'd save on taxes, which I understand is one of the tenets of Libertarianism: When people pay less taxes, they aremuch more likely to support private charities.
Well, I suppose a good deal of my troubles come from my obstinance regarding my wife. While I could concievably immediately start making more money, I refuse to drop her like a hot rock, so I keep getting burned - but after 11 years the calouses are pretty thick. :p (Why do you think I am so Synikal...? :D )

IME, charity works - because people support charities that work (efficiently). Welfare isn't charity and has too many costs involved... e.g. it doesn't work (efficiently). On this last move, my wife spent 30 days in the hospital and another 2 MONTHS in a residential care facility before she was safe to be left alone. I paid a couple of thousand personally (I've been doing an MSA before they were "legal") and the (private/Catholic) hospital took the rest out of their charity budget. It would have cost me more if I had had a decent job, but with a decent job I could have paid it.

I have a real problem with self employment. The problem is, I can't be an asshole to my customers - even when they deserve it. Since I don't have a "product" to sell for cash on the barrelhead, I am left to "hourly billing" for a "service" - which has always run against my grain. I'm a salary kind of guy. You tell me how much you're willing to pay, and I'll tell you yes or no. When I'm done, I'm done. IMO hourly wages are open for abuse and, even when not abused, can be manifestly unfair to the client because of circumstances beyond the clients (or my) control.

I would much rather be a salried employee... basically like I was in the Army.

(So, of course, I am now in the position of trying to convince rich deadbeats to pay for the hourly services they recieved but are now trying to get out of (assholes building $300,000 houses with thousand-dollar+ appliances and don't want to pay the architecture firm that designed it to keep from falling into the Lake...). I pay my bills, why can't they? It's maddening to have to beg someone (a lawsuit would be counter-productive) to fulfill an obligation. I'm much more of the type to simply go and break a knee cap or two rather than eternal pleading by dunning letter. People like that don't deserve to be comfortable... but I don't want to meet up with "Tyrone" in Jail either.)