NationStates Jolt Archive

Religious left' launched in US

Just to balance up the debate on the role of religion (Christianity specifically) in the US political scene, we now have an attempt to remove the neocon stranglehold on the religious and faithfull.

The Christian Alliance for Progress aims to "reclaim Christianity" and influence the political agenda.

"We can no longer stand by and watch people speak hatred, division, war and greed in the name of our faith," said Patrick Mrotek, the Alliance's founder.
Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4124418.stm)

...

*stares at pistol*

the neocon stranglehold on the religious and faithfull.

you got that relationship inverted - the neocons don't dominate Christianity, Christianity dominates the neocons

Christian Left? what's next, gay Christians? oh wait, they have them too :rolleyes:

Christian Left? what's next, gay Christians? oh wait, they have them too :rolleyes:

There were even Nazi Jews. Some people are just confused, I guess.

There were even Nazi Jews. Some people are just confused, I guess.

Thats because there were Jews who considered themselves German Jews, and loved Germany as much as any German did.

That hit alot of Jews in Germany hard, because they were being blamed for their countries loss in WWI.,

Christian Left? what's next, gay Christians? oh wait, they have them too :rolleyes:

of course, in the bible jesus seems just a might bit farther left than your average democrat (dude, he chased a bunch of capitalists with a whip!), so it's not really all that surprising. and then there are all those rather leftish social policies favored by pretty much the entire leadership of all of the mainline christian churches in the united states.

There were even Nazi Jews. Some people are just confused, I guess.
Actually, I don't think it's confusion so much as self-hate, and the all-encompassing human need/want/instinct to have a black and white view/definition of right and wrong.

Hmmm.... being an anti-religious hater of the left-right scale the religious left doesn't really appeal to me, somehow.

This isn't (in the strictest sense) a church/state issue. Just because an organization has a religious bent doesn't make them an organization which wants their faith enshrined into the government. These organizations don't want to impose their religious beliefs on other people.

Further, it's high time we fought fire with fire. Christianity isn't inherently a prejudiced religion (this coming from a Jew). It is, however, a powerful motivator for well over one billion people worldwide. The left shouldn't just cede that ground to the right. As long as this sort of advocacy group is permitted to influence politics (which I don't think they should be, but that's a different issue), the left should have them to contest misinterpretations of religion by the right.

Finally, this isn't really a new thing. There are hundreds of such groups in the United States alone. They've just been relatively ineffective recently.

of course, in the bible jesus seems just a might bit farther left than your average democrat (dude, he chased a bunch of capitalists with a whip!), so it's not really all that surprising. and then there are all those rather leftish social policies favored by pretty much the entire leadership of all of the mainline christian churches in the united states.

lots of catholics are democrats... but i don't know very many protestants who are.... though i think it's actually divided among racial lines among protestants.

52% of the country is protestant; 24% is catholic.

lots of catholics are democrats... but i don't know very many protestants who are....

i am more than willing to bet money that most of the leadership of the mainline protestant churches votes democrat. the congregations are split all sorts of directions though.

Religious left' launched in US

Just to balance up the debate on the role of religion (Christianity specifically) in the US political scene, we now have an attempt to remove the neocon stranglehold on the religious and faithfull.

Let me make one thing perfectly clear.

An environmentalist group may lobby for any policy it so desires.

A Christian group may lobby for any policy it so desires.

There is absolutely ZERO difference between the two. Anyone may lobby for anything they wish regardless of what their personal belief may be. A group of Christian’s intent on impacting the government is NOT a violation of the "Separation of Church and State" by ANY stretch of the imagination. The policy enacted by environmentalists is in no way any different from the policy enacted by Christians. If a law passed by Christians is "forcing their beliefs on others" then so are laws passed by environmentalists. Welcome to the Republic

There is no difference. You may now return to your regular scheduled banter.

Christian Left? what's next, gay Christians? oh wait, they have them too :rolleyes:

Yeah, because as we all know, Jesus was a beacon of hope for Republicanism. As he said unto the masses during the Sermon on the Mount:

"I say unto you, it is better that ten thousand children should starve than for one lazy bum to recieve welfare undeserved."

Oh, wait a sec. . .

Church state fusion???? Why because there is a Christian left?

There were even Nazi Jews. Some people are just confused, I guess.
*invokes Godwin's Law*

Yep...There is no shame left on this Earth. I'm packing outta here and heading for Mars.

If anyone wants to join me the rocket has 12 seats plus pilot and shotgun.

Yep...There is no shame left on this Earth. I'm packing outta here and heading for Mars.

If anyone wants to join me the rocket has 12 seats plus pilot and shotgun.
"Shotgun" as in "passenger seat"...?

Or "shotgun" as in "gun for killing ourselves when we notice that there's no hope left for humankind"?

"Shotgun" as in "passenger seat"...?

Or "shotgun" as in "gun for killing ourselves when we notice that there's no hope left for humankind"?

The former. I do have a small arsenal in the cargo area though.

This isn't (in the strictest sense) a church/state issue. Just because an organization has a religious bent doesn't make them an organization which wants their faith enshrined into the government. These organizations don't want to impose their religious beliefs on other people.

Further, it's high time we fought fire with fire. Christianity isn't inherently a prejudiced religion (this coming from a Jew). It is, however, a powerful motivator for well over one billion people worldwide. The left shouldn't just cede that ground to the right. As long as this sort of advocacy group is permitted to influence politics (which I don't think they should be, but that's a different issue), the left should have them to contest misinterpretations of religion by the right.

Finally, this isn't really a new thing. There are hundreds of such groups in the United States alone. They've just been relatively ineffective recently.don't impose their beliefs on other people? bush tried to pass a law that banned same-sex in every state even though that's each states own choice. did he have a reason other then his faith? no. sorry if that sounded like an attack but just the thought of these people running the country makes me shudder.

It only makes sense that things would return to a state of normalcy. Christianity teaches socialism. If the democratic party would abandon the pro choice movement, they would most likely have the Christian vote. A lot of Christians just cant find it in themselves to vote for people who support killing babies.

lots of catholics are democrats...

that's changing rapidly, a slim majority wen't to W

Christianity teaches socialism.

Christianity teaches charity, though the two are often confused. Christians are always the firmist anti-socialists, just look at JP2

If the democratic party would abandon the pro choice movement, they would most likely have the Christian vote. A lot of Christians just cant find it in themselves to vote for people who support killing babies.

yeah, thats how they split the once solidly democratic Catholic block

It only makes sense that things would return to a state of normalcy. Christianity teaches socialism. If the democratic party would abandon the pro choice movement, they would most likely have the Christian vote. A lot of Christians just cant find it in themselves to vote for people who support killing babies.



That, and a few other things kept me from voting democrat.

There is absolutely ZERO difference between the two. Anyone may lobby for anything they wish regardless of what their personal belief may be. A group of Christian’s intent on impacting the government is NOT a violation of the "Separation of Church and State" by ANY stretch of the imagination. The policy enacted by environmentalists is in no way any different from the policy enacted by Christians. If a law passed by Christians is "forcing their beliefs on others" then so are laws passed by environmentalists. Welcome to the Republic

Exactly. This is always how I’ve seen things. When a new EPA standard is passed, you don’t see people yelling, “This violates the separation of Green Peace and State!”

Christianity teaches charity, though the two are often confused. Christians are always the firmist anti-socialists, just look at JP2

Yep, charity is voluntarily giving your money to good causes, Socialism is being forced to.

I am 46 and have lived in the US all my life a have always been and will be a part of the christian left (Social and moral conservative and economical liberal). Jesus is the prime example of a Christian Socialist. Basically we are the complete opposites of Libertarians. Praise GOD allmighty and help the poor and needy. Amen!

We are in the minority however, that is most likely why you don't hear to much about us.

Yeah, because as we all know, Jesus was a beacon of hope for Republicanism. As he said unto the masses during the Sermon on the Mount:

"I say unto you, it is better that ten thousand children should starve than for one lazy bum to recieve welfare undeserved."

Oh, wait a sec. . .

Unless of course that One Lazy Bum is in the White House claiming to be the leader of the country.

Even the most hardcore non-Bushevik Republicans have to admit that throughout history, Shrub is the world's biggest Welfare Recepient.

Yeah, because as we all know, Jesus was a beacon of hope for Republicanism. As he said unto the masses during the Sermon on the Mount:

"I say unto you, it is better that ten thousand children should starve than for one lazy bum to recieve welfare undeserved."

and the old favorite, "blessed are the war-makers, for they will inherit the earth."

Christianity teaches charity, though the two are often confused. Christians are always the firmist anti-socialists, just look at JP2


Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that Christians are always the firmest anti-socialists? Sure, you can point out JP2, and I can point out Arch Bishop Oscar Romero. We can keep pointing out noteable Christians with opposing views all day long. Obviously Christians are not ALWAYS the firmest anti-socialists as you have been led to believe.

As for what Christianity teaches, well that depends on what you consider socialism. If you are forced by your government to share your wealth with the less fortunate, is that socialism? Most would say it is. When God set up his government, that is what he did. The government he instructed the Israelites to set up was one where people were by law obligated to leave things behind for the poor.

Leviticus 19:9-10 " 'When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.

Deutoronomy 24:19-21 When you are harvesting in your field and you overlook a sheaf, do not go back to get it. Leave it for the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. When you beat the olives from your trees, do not go over the branches a second time. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. When you harvest the grapes in your vineyard, do not go over the vines again. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow.

In the New Testament, the Israelites no longer have their kingdom, so Jesus does not instruct them on what things they must mandate by law, but instead he teaches that it is better to give than to recieve. We also learn that Christians have a duty to look after the widows and orphans. The examples are plentiful throughout the bible. The only time that God informed a people on how they should run their government, he taught them how to create a socialist government.

The only time that God informed a people on how they should run their government, he taught them how to create a socialist government.

The problem I have with most socialists is that they do not base their beliefs on God’s teachings. This is the only way that it could ever work, with the blessings of God, by a society centered around God. After all, the first churches were communes and socialist in the extreme. All money was in a common pool, which the disciples dolled out to people who needed it and to fund missions. The difference between them and modern socialist governments, is that the disciples depended on the Lord’s guidance on how to distrubute wealth.

There's a huge difference between a Socialist and a Christian Socialist!

There's a huge difference between a Socialist and a Christian Socialist!

No there isnt, the words Christian and socialist define entirely different things. The fact that you choose to combine them in order to better describe someone doesnt mean they merge into one new word that means something different. Christian reffers to a persons's religion, and socialist to their preffered economic model. The difference between a socialist and a Christian socialist is that one is Christian and the other may or may not be. There arent different categories of socialism for each religion.

Yes there is! A Christian Socialist is moraly and socially conservative but economocalliy liberal. A Socialist is liberal in both. Most socialists lack in morals and values, where as Christian Socialists do not. Jesus created true Christian Socialism. The only righteous form of government!

Yes there is! A Christian Socialist is moraly and socially conservative but economocalliy liberal. A Socialist is liberal in both. Most socialists lack in morals and values, where as Christian Socialists do not. Jesus created true Christian Socialism. The only righteous form of government!

Socialists do not lack morals and values. They may lack YOUR values, but so what? Socialists are never economically liberal. In fact, they are pretty much second to communism in being the antithesis of economic liberalism, which is defined here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_economics

Yes there is! A Christian Socialist is moraly and socially conservative but economocalliy liberal. A Socialist is liberal in both. Most socialists lack in morals and values, where as Christian Socialists do not. Jesus created true Christian Socialism. The only righteous form of government!

You are mistaken. Socialism reffers to an economic model, not a government platform. Socialism takes no stance on moral issues other than the basic tenets of helping the less fortunate and providing health care and other services to all. Socialist parties vary in their stances towards other moral issues like abortion, gay marriage, legalization of drugs, etc. The word socialist only reffers to the economic model that the person or persons being described supports.

Believe as you wish in your wikipedia and whatever other sources you wish, as I will continue believing in my source: "The Holy Bible". I require no other books or sources other than the word of GOD. As far as morals and values are concearned, they are not my moral and values, they are GOD's. There is only 1 right and many wrongs, there is only 1 good and many bads for all things. Morality and values are clearly defined in the holy scriptures. It's not a persons choice to pick and choose. This brings this conversation to an end. Praise GOD allmighty! Amen!

One last thing, I am a Christian Socialist! And there is nothing that you nor anyone on this planet can do about it. GOD bless!

Believe as you wish in your wikipedia and whatever other sources you wish, as I will continue believing in my source: "The Holy Bible". I require no other books or sources other than the word of GOD. As far as morals and values are concearned, they are not my moral and values, they are GOD's. There is only 1 right and many wrongs, there is only 1 good and many bads for all things. Morality and values are clearly defined in the holy scriptures. It's not a persons choice to pick and choose. This brings this conversation to an end. Praise GOD allmighty! Amen!

What does any of that have to do with the definition of socialism? Socialism isnt defined in the bible. Socialism is an economic model, one strikingly similar to the one God instructed his people to set up. There is nothing more to socialism other than economics therefore it can easily coexist with whichever moral system you choose, including the Christian one.

Believe as you wish in your wikipedia and whatever other sources you wish, as I will continue believing in my source: "The Holy Bible". I require no other books or sources other than the word of GOD. As far as morals and values are concearned, they are not my moral and values, they are GOD's. There is only 1 right and many wrongs, there is only 1 good and many bads for all things. Morality and values are clearly defined in the holy scriptures. It's not a persons choice to pick and choose. This brings this conversation to an end. Praise GOD allmighty! Amen!
Whose holy scriptures? There are quite a few religions, and they are all the 'right' ones. Im sure that you would hold this view as one of the "many bads", but your position is, frankly, ridiculous. I don't think that I should have to live my life as written by someone thousands of years ago, and I do not 'pick and choose my morality'. I do not belive in Wikipedia, I trust it to some extent. This means I have to think about what I quote, instead of 'knowing it's right coz GOD SAID SO!!111'.

"this brings this conversation to an end".... get bent.

Christians are always the firmist anti-socialists, just look at JP2

Incorrect. JP2 was anti-Soviet, not anti-socialist. His worldview was highly collectivist, and he had some rather nasty things to say about capitalism too.

Yep, charity is voluntarily giving your money to good causes, Socialism is being forced to.
Surely then Christians should all be libertarians? Or do you think that it's not hypocritical to force your religious views on social issues, but not to force your religious views on economic issues?

It only makes sense that things would return to a state of normalcy. Christianity teaches socialism. If the democratic party would abandon the pro choice movement, they would most likely have the Christian vote. A lot of Christians just cant find it in themselves to vote for people who support killing babies.

The democratic party has abandoned the Christian vote in favor of secularism. It isn't because their polocies Since we only have two parties, the other party always takes the opposite approach.

But you are right. If the democratic party would abandon the issue of abortion, it would likely be able to get support from religious groups

Surely then Christians should all be libertarians? Or do you think that it's not hypocritical to force your religious views on social issues, but not to force your religious views on economic issues?

Ok. Some Christian groups favor some socialist policies, and there are others that would- but socialism abandoned christianity completely. When the dogma calls for disbanding all religion, there really isn't any way they can support it.
As for libertarians, there a problem with that too. Many libertarians support the free use of maria juanna- and there are religeous groups that don't even like alcohol.
You just can't expect people to vote against their beliefs. Don't ask them to, it is insulting. The divide probably comes largely with abortion- and if a person doesn't believe in abortion he is allowed to vote against any candidate who supports it.

[QUOTE=Sizjam]Whose holy scriptures? There are quite a few religions, and they are all the 'right' ones. Im sure that you would hold this view as one of the "many bads", but your position is, frankly, ridiculous. I don't think that I should have to live my life as written by someone thousands of years ago, and I do not 'pick and choose my morality'. I do not belive in Wikipedia, I trust it to some extent. This means I have to think about what I quote, instead of 'knowing it's right coz GOD SAID SO!!111'.
QUOTE]

Ok. In other words, you are saying that this person should abandon his beliefs because there are other things he could believe? There are many rights?
Here's what you are saying. There are many religions and they are all equal. If we treat them equally, they all claim to be true, and must be. But this creates a paradox since they contradict each other. So we create a less absolute version of "true" like "Truth isn't necessarily 'true' per se" because if they are all equally true, then they are all false. Therefore, they are all false together.

A religious person believes in his beliefs, and it is idiotic to ask him to abandon his religion on political grounds. He does not believe all beliefs, only his own- and thus remains free of the contradiction you have forced on him. Attacking his beliefs on political grounds is how you lose his vote- it is silly to ask him to contradict his world view. He can and will vote for supporters of his world view.

What does any of that have to do with the definition of socialism? Socialism isnt defined in the bible. Socialism is an economic model, one strikingly similar to the one God instructed his people to set up. There is nothing more to socialism other than economics therefore it can easily coexist with whichever moral system you choose, including the Christian one.

Yeah, the reason that christians don't support socialism is that whole "Opiate of the Masses" thing. So yes, religions can and do support socialist policies but socialism doesn't support them.
By the way, yes i know that Marx was really a communist and I am aware of the differences between Socialism and Communism...

Yeah, the reason that christians don't support socialism is that whole "Opiate of the Masses" thing. So yes, religions can and do support socialist policies but socialism doesn't support them.
By the way, yes i know that Marx was really a communist and I am aware of the differences between Socialism and Communism...

If you are aware that you used the wrong term, then why did you make this post in the first place? This is the first time I see a post where a person makes an obvious mistake and then says "yeah, I know this post makes absolutely no sense" at the end. Well, the first time anyone does it and isnt joking anyway.