NationStates Jolt Archive

Source (http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-06-24T173421Z_01_N24605471_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-SECURITY-ITALY-KIDNAPPING-DC.XML)

Well, it seems America didn't get permission to do this, did it anyway. Should these people have been arrested, or should they have been allowed to do it?

I think that they should have given up when they were not given permission by Italy, or at least been more discreet over it. :S If they got caught, they should face the charges.

Of course they should have been arrested if they were breaking Italy's laws.

you need to make your headline a little more clear next time :P they're not arrested, but they have warrants out for their arrest.

and i agree, it's just sloppy work.

i think they have only issued warrents for their arrests, i don't think the italians actually have them in custody. the US will probably just ignore calls for their extradition.

i think they have only issued warrents for their arrests, i don't think the italians actually have them in custody. the US will probably just ignore calls for their extradition.
Then most likely the Italians will not allow US operations to continue within Italy without it's full disclosure to the Italian government.

Source (http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-06-24T173421Z_01_N24605471_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-SECURITY-ITALY-KIDNAPPING-DC.XML)

Well, it seems America didn't get permission to do this, did it anyway. Should these people have been arrested, or should they have been allowed to do it?

I think that they should have given up when they were not given permission by Italy, or at least been more discreet over it. :S If they got caught, they should face the charges.
The terrorism suspect's "whereabouts are unknown." Heh!

you need to make your headline a little more clear next time :P they're not arrested, but they have warrants out for their arrest.

and i agree, it's just sloppy work.
Even if they're not eventually arrested, they should be fired for stupidity. :rolleyes:

Then most likely the Italians will not allow US operations to continue within Italy without it's full disclosure to the Italian government.

that's okay, we'll do it anyway.

hehe

i'll call my Italian friends for a good laugh.

Why did they kidnap the guy in the first place?

If the suspect was a terrorist couldn't they follow him to see what he was up to or just outright arrest him legally?

Why did they kidnap the guy in the first place?

If the suspect was a terrorist couldn't they follow him to see what he was up to or just outright arrest him legally?

they were probably full of great ziti, antipasti and canoli... and were prone to great lapses in judgment.

Source (http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-06-24T173421Z_01_N24605471_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-SECURITY-ITALY-KIDNAPPING-DC.XML)

Well, it seems America didn't get permission to do this, did it anyway. Should these people have been arrested, or should they have been allowed to do it?

I think that they should have given up when they were not given permission by Italy, or at least been more discreet over it. :S If they got caught, they should face the charges.

So they hijack a terrorist and returned him to Egypt? Where's the kidnapping? As far as I can see, they did Italy a favor. They should be allowed to do it since they arrested a terrorist.

Of course they should have been arrested if they were breaking Italy's laws.

The problem is that they aren't in Italy now.

According to the article: "We know some of the identities of these (suspects) with certainty, but with others we are not sure of their true identity."

Considering that these people don't work with real identities, and this looks like a black op thing, you might as well write out a warrant for Mr. Smith.

So they hijack a terrorist and returned him to Egypt? Where's the kidnapping? As far as I can see, they did Italy a favor. They should be allowed to do it since they arrested a terrorist.

Eh... There is such a thing as national laws, you know.

If they violated Italian laws, then they should face trial. Exactly the same as if Italian operatives had violated US laws on US soil.

The problem is that they aren't in Italy now.

According to the article: "We know some of the identities of these (suspects) with certainty, but with others we are not sure of their true identity."

Considering that these people don't work with real identities, and this looks like a black op thing, you might as well write out a warrant for Mr. Smith.
....so?

They broke the law, Italy sends out an extraidition request for whatever name they have for them. Just because they work for the CIA doesn't mean they are above the law.

....so?

They broke the law, Italy sends out an extraidition request for whatever name they have for them. Just because they work for the CIA doesn't mean they are above the law.

So, you have to know their names...

which you don't know....

Technically, they aren't above the law. But realistically, they might as well be.

People who work in black ops don't have real names.

Eh... There is such a thing as national laws, you know.

Ahh my friend, you don't know how the intel game is played. If these people get arrested, they'll be let go. There wouldn't even be a trial. They would just be returned secretly back to the United States.

If they violated Italian laws, then they should face trial. Exactly the same as if Italian operatives had violated US laws on US soil.

I'm sure they have but were secretly let go without anyone knowing about it. Intel is a funny game. Especially now a days.

Then most likely the Italians will not allow US operations to continue within Italy without it's full disclosure to the Italian government.
Because, of course, the Italians have always disclosed their ops when working in US controlled or overseen territory :rolleyes:

So, you have to know their names...

which you don't know....

Technically, they aren't above the law. But realistically, they might as well be.

People who work in black ops don't have real names.
"We know some of the identities of these (suspects) with certainty"

"We know some of the identities of these (suspects) with certainty"

AHHH!!!

But are those their real names? That is the question.

AHHH!!!

But are those their real names? That is the question.

You've been watching far too many spy movies.

You've been watching far too many spy movies.

We're talking about the Intelligence Department. Come on. I doubt they were using their real names. They would be stupid if they did.

Yeah-this is good-lets keep wasting time prattling on about what the CIA agents deserve. Italy cleaned up some terrorist issues not very long ago-with our assistance-and may have bent a few of their own rules.

This is a bullshit waste of time story. If its half true its because someone exposed the operation-they were compromised somehow.
The good news is- none of them are in custody, no one has their real identities and the scum bag they picked up is in a secure location above ground-or beaneath it-I dont really care.

Maybe some of his friends will wake up and spread the news that someone maynot be playing "by the rules".

AHHH!!!

But are those their real names? That is the question.
Yea, but the rest of the sentence is "but with others we are not sure of their true identity." Which would make me think they know the real identity of some, and they dont for some of the others.

Yea, but the rest of the sentence is "but with others we are not sure of their true identity." Which would make me think they know the real identity of some, and they dont for some of the others.

Not necessarily. It could be they don't know the names they were using at the time. Sometimes we can identify a crook but it turns out to be an alias as well. We have an ID on one but not on others. It covers alot of ground.

I bet they just don't know the names of these individuals, be it real or fictious.

Yea, but the rest of the sentence is "but with others we are not sure of their true identity." Which would make me think they know the real identity of some, and they dont for some of the others.
Or they think one of the false idents is a real one.

Not necessarily. It could be they don't know the names they were using at the time. Sometimes we can identify a crook but it turns out to be an alias as well. We have an ID on one but not on others. It covers alot of ground.

I bet they just don't know the names of these individuals, be it real or fictious.
At the end of the day, who really knows?

(apart from the Italians...)

Eh... There is such a thing as national laws, you know.

If they violated Italian laws, then they should face trial. Exactly the same as if Italian operatives had violated US laws on US soil.

Oh, Cornfed knows that. He's just RPing. Unfortunately, he's doing it in the real world.

At the end of the day, who really knows?

(apart from the Italians...)

The CIA! It doesn't matter. These people aren't in custody and I doubt that they would be held long even if they were.

Oh, Cornfed knows that. He's just RPing. Unfortunately, he's doing it in the real world.

Dobbsworld, we're talking about Intelligence! Please try to keep up with how the game is played. :rolleyes:

Nope, let em go and let them do thier job without idiot countries like Italy interfering.

Nope, let em go and let them do thier job without idiot countries like Italy interfering.
I would hope this applies to all operatives of foreign nations anywhere?

I would hope this applies to all operatives of foreign nations anywhere?


No-only those alligned with the US that are actually doing some good.

I dont care about anyone else that isnt working with us. I'm only interested in whats best for the US. If it upsets or insults someone else, then maybe they are on the wrong side.

I would hope this applies to all operatives of foreign nations anywhere?

Of course not. It only applies to the United States and its allies.

"All Animals are equal. But Some are More Equal than Others."

Yea, but the rest of the sentence is "but with others we are not sure of their true identity." Which would make me think they know the real identity of some, and they dont for some of the others.

Extremely unlikely.

No-only those alligned with the US that are actually doing some good.

I dont care about anyone else that isnt working with us. I'm only interested in whats best for the US. If it upsets or insults someone else, then maybe they are on the wrong side.
"With us or against us"?

I see...

Extremely unlikely.

But not impossible.

But not impossible.
Considering that any group of people who do this sort of work don't even know each other's real names, it's as close to impossible as it gets.

If the name on the subpoena isn't real, no one will be arrested.

If they didn't have permission from Italian authorities to capture the terror suspect, they broke Italian laws, and so were reasonably ordered arrested.

So they hijack a terrorist and returned him to Egypt? Where's the kidnapping? As far as I can see, they did Italy a favor. They should be allowed to do it since they arrested a terrorist.
Looks like I didn't have to wait long for an American justification for anything his country's agents do. Kidnapping to export suspects in your torture outsourcing programmes is illegal and wrong. I wonder where you would draw the line, if anywhere, or is anything done by your government OK? :confused:

Looks like I didn't have to wait long for an American justification for anything his country's agents do. Kidnapping to export suspects in your torture outsourcing programmes is illegal and wrong. I wonder where you would draw the line, if anywhere, or is anything done by your government OK? :confused:

Gee, we used to kidnap people from Europe all the time during the Cold War, torture them in other European countries, and then dump the bodies in the North Sea - and the Europeans helped us do this.

Looks like times have changed, eh?

So they hijack a terrorist and returned him to Egypt? Where's the kidnapping? As far as I can see, they did Italy a favor. They should be allowed to do it since they arrested a terrorist.

o.o

Were is are the proofs provided in a fair trial, implicating the guy that was kidnapped in terrorist activities, that justify him being kidnapped and sent to Egypt to be basically tortured? He was charged (and he probably was a terrorist), but if the US just snatches people like that, then outsorces the torture of its victim to a country that isnt even a democracy.. well, then you have just hit a new low on hipocrisy.

I'm not even talking on the blaintant disrespect for Italian Sovereignty, a country that theoretically is your ally.. lol.

Then you Americans complain that you aren't loved :rolleyes:

Gee, we used to kidnap people from Europe all the time during the Cold War, torture them in other European countries, and then dump the bodies in the North Sea - and the Europeans helped us do this.

Looks like times have changed, eh?


Yea, you used to have the decency to ask before throwing the bodies in the sea. Might not be much, but that decency was enough to draw the line were we called you "friends", and the Soviets "enemies".

You don't get respect if you don't give respect, works for people, guess it works for nations too.

If it upsets or insults someone else, then maybe they are on the wrong side.

Me! Me! It's me!

"With us or against us"?

I see...


Exactly. I dont make any excuses about it. I'm not going to pretend I dont feel this way and use some fancy semantics to try to mask it.

I am all for preserving our way of life. There are many that hate us for that. The only thing that will satisfy them is to see us in ruin. Many of them are going to great efforts to bring that about. I want them continually hunted and treated extremely poorly when they are found.

Exactly. I dont make any excuses about it. I'm not going to pretend I dont feel this way and use some fancy semantics to try to mask it.

I am all for preserving our way of life. There are many that hate us for that. The only thing that will satisfy them is to see us in ruin. Many of them are going to great efforts to bring that about. I want them continually hunted and treated extremely poorly when they are found.
So those who arent trying to preserve your way of life is against you? Or is it not more accurate to say that some are with you, some are against you, and most couldnt give a fuck?

o.o


Then you Americans complain that you aren't loved :rolleyes:


I dont hear any complaining we arent loved. And its that very fact we dont give a shit what you think that lends justification for the real reasons you dont like us.

I dont hear any complaining we arent loved. And its that very fact we dont give a shit what you think that lends justification for the real reasons you dont like us.


This has been debated like, a zillion times... and you are going the wrongggggggggggggggggg direction.

This has been debated like, a zillion times... and you are going the wrongggggggggggggggggg direction.



No-its not an Amercian saying "why doesnt anyone like us?", its someone from outside the US throwing up a softball for all the others to pile on the bandwagon with their opinions on why we're so bad.

No-its not an Amercian saying "why doesnt anyone like us?", its someone from outside the US throwing up a softball for all the others to pile on the bandwagon with their opinions on why we're so bad.


.... yep, you went the wrong way.

Ill admit it, it was a provocative comment.

But if you don't "give a shit blablablabla" WHY DO YOU COMMENT ON IT??? Yes we know you don't care blablabla, now move on and discuss the legitimacy of your goverment kidnapping citizens of other countries, in other countries, disobeying the local laws and disregarding the local sovereign powers, to then move the kidnapped citizens to third countries were they are going to be tortured, all of this, without the decency of a trial, even a mock on, for crying out loud!

You mean America uh... "captures" uh... "terrorists" without paying five grand a head to Afghani and Pakistani warlords?

Ah. This must be someone other than unsuspecting Kuwaiti tourists, then. See what happens when you try to save a few lousy grand? Sure, those Kuwaitis might not be actual terrorists or anything, but they fill dog-kennel cages like real pros.

Colour me unsurprised.

God Bless Italy

.... yep, you went the wrong way.

Ill admit it, it was a provocative comment.

But if you don't "give a shit blablablabla" WHY DO YOU COMMENT ON IT??? Yes we know you don't care blablabla, now move on and discuss the legitimacy of your goverment kidnapping citizens of other countries, in other countries, disobeying the local laws and disregarding the local sovereign powers, to then move the kidnapped citizens to third countries were they are going to be tortured, all of this, without the decency of a trial, even a mock on, for crying out loud!

I comment because its a forum-we are in here to comment on things others comment on. Someone has to lend validity to your existance.

You're rattling on about 13 people, who may or may not be identified-if they identified its by false names, And they may have picked up some one who no body knows where he is now.
Maybe nothing ever happened at all.

If it was the US claiming some Europeans did this terrible act on US soil, I'd have the smug response "Meh...proof please" "Link please" "I dont recognize that as a legitimate medium"

So hunt down these ghosts and find the proof of what they did.