NationStates Jolt Archive

hi everyone,
not trolling or flame baiting.i have a serious question.

my grandparents came off the boat from ireland and italy,so i guess i am an american mutt.

i was raised roman catholic(alter boy and all that)till i got kicked outta school,so forgive my grammer and spelling.

i usually just read peoples posts and occaisionally respond but i am at a loss on this subject,so maybe some of you can give me some insight.

when i grew up,my mom never talked about the troubles home...ever,she was a saint on earth,no ill will towards anyone.so i had no understanding of what was happening in ireland,dating myself,i grew up in the late 60's and early 70's...but no one ever mentioned it,now i am curious about my heritage.

i have done a little research and the most i can surmise is that it is a quasi religous/political issue.the catholics want the brits out and the protestants don't.

how did it become a religous issue to start with,i dont understand how the brits have anything to do with religous issues in ireland?forgive my stupidity,no one ever bothered to explain this to me,my mom just wanted us to be happy and help people.can someone please explain the connection with the political and religous dynamic.

i want to visit both ireland and italy...yea i am a fuckin tourist..lol...but really,it would be nice to see were my grandparents were born and to see a bit of there culture.

i just dont understand the whole trouble thing and i dont want to be an idiot if i get the chance to visit.

i sit here and think of all the mother's on both sides that lost family,it brings tears to my eyes,i know if i lost a family member to violence it would destroy me...and i would want revenge...which may explain the cycle of violence...but it has to end...so there is no more mothers with there heads in there hands.

paint me as naive...i am kinda rowdy and a bit of a hooligan,but i just don't understand fratricide..if that is what it is/was.

i know it seems to be calm now,but i live at the jersey shore(nj)and i went to do a job at a bar at a hard core irish bar,and i mentioned that i was half irish,and i swear a chill went through the room,they asked me were my mom was from...all i remembered her saying was something about county cork..so i said..cork i think..lol...then i was bought beers all day while i was workin?

is it still that divided?i pray people put there pain away before more is caused,no one should have to cry for a friend or family member lost over something that i read happened in 1916

maybe i havent suffered the loss that makes me angered beyond reason..i hope i never do.

god bless all and thanks for any replies in advance.dag,i sound like a liberal and i aint...aint a repug either,i just am bewildered over violence..or the cycle of it i guess.

any one have ideas how to stop the cycle of violence? :fluffle:

Well, I'm British and I'm just as clueless as you are.

the most recent thing to happen was than an ice cream salesman had assets worth over £1.5 million frozen. so some people did well out of it.

this thread is going to be fun....it will be people on one side slagging the Brits, people on the other slagging the 'ra. fun fun.

No, its not as bad as it was, in fact...its one of the safest places to live in the world (i remember reading NI was second only to Japan. but i have to say i dont believe that for a second).

edit: yup...seems true. overall, NI is top equal with Japan. source (http://www.minjust.nl:8080/b_organ/wodc/publications/08-icvs-h2.pdf) (page 38 for summary)

the most recent thing to happen was than an ice cream salesman had assets worth over £1.5 million frozen. so some people did well out of it.

this thread is going to be fun....it will be people on one side slagging the Brits, people on the other slagging the 'ra. fun fun.

No, its not as bad as it was, in fact...its one of the safest places to live in the world (i remember reading NI was second only to Japan. but i have to say i dont believe that for a second).

edit: yup...seems true. overall, NI is top equal with Japan. source (http://www.minjust.nl:8080/b_organ/wodc/publications/08-icvs-h2.pdf) (page 38 for summary)

i hope it doesn't turn into a slag thing..that was not what i intended..i just wanted to knoew the cause of the bitterness and the religous angle..plus i want to visit..but i read here a few weeks ago i prolly wouldnt be welcomed anyway...another dumb tourist i guess.
thanks for responding though,like the brit said..i am baffled too...hope some one can explain the problem to me..better yet..a solution :fluffle:

The English took over Ireland in the late middle ages or something, and cos they were Anglican the persecuted all the Catholics. This meant that there were some Catholic Irish and some Protestant. Also all the upper classes in Ireland were British, and they treated the Catholic Irish very unfairly. This obviously meant the Irish didn't like the English, and that is still happening today. It's mostly in Northeren Ireland i think, because they remained part of the UK when the South didn't.
That's basically my understanding anyway.

The English took over Ireland in the late middle ages or something, and cos they were Anglican the persecuted all the Catholics.
And the non-Anglican Protestants...who actually rose up against the British in 1798.

And most of the settlers in Ireland (in the North East) were Scottish, and many of them were descended from people originally from Ireland....

And the non-Anglican Protestants...who actually rose up against the British in 1798.

And most of the settlers in Ireland (in the North East) were Scottish, and many of them were descended from people originally from Ireland....

From your location i expect you'd know more than me about it.

i read here a few weeks ago i prolly wouldnt be welcomed anyway...another dumb tourist i guess.
Oh, youre more than welcome to visit. Just dont make the mistake many tourists make of coming across all patronising..."oh, you know, my granmother was from here, im irish". it just makes people who actually are irish laugh. But you seem to have that under control anyway, so youll be fine :p

Excuse my patchy history but it would take forever to try and put across all of the details and causes of the Troubles. The conflict in NI stems from the British Crown's attempts to subjugate Ireland by populating it with Brits loyal to the Protestant crown and these people were given land seized from the Irish as an incentive to move. This tactic worked particularly well in the North where the Protestant Ulster-scots became the establishment and the Catholic Irish were 2nd class citizens.

The Troubles flared up again in the 60s and 70s as a combination of the mistrust that had been present for generations and the denial of civil rights for the Catholics. The Republicans want to create a 32 county Republic of Ireland whereas the Unionists want to remain loyal to the UK and the crown and both sides were willing to go to use any means necessary to achieve their goals.

The peace proccess has been fairly successful with both sides having many of their demands met and compromise being found and it is the general feeling that the younger generation has a greater desire for change and progression with bombings and revenge attacks a thing of the past.

With the marching season upon us however the divisions in NI are still clearly there for many of the people who still refuse to accept the fact that they have more in common than different.

And the non-Anglican Protestants...who actually rose up against the British in 1798.

And most of the settlers in Ireland (in the North East) were Scottish, and many of them were descended from people originally from Ireland....

what is a non-anglican..forgive my stupidity please.
i thought ni was protestant,i am apparrently clueless,thank you all for your insight.i see those bumper stickers here that say...16 +1 = ireland?
what does that mean...am i opening a can of worms here,i truly hope i aint....i hope too learn something about from were i am from..actuallly i am just an american,but it cant hurt too learn about others...

i do appreciate everyone keeping it factual,i just want to understand,if anyone wants to know about me..ask away..or my country..i will do my best to explain it...so i thank you serious people out there...i do likie to have fun and goof...but i am serious about this particular issue...
thanks

what is a non-anglican..forgive my stupidity please.
Anglican would be like Church of England, non-Anglican would be Presbyterian, Methodist etc.

i thought ni was protestant,i am apparrently clueless,thank you all for your insight.i see those bumper stickers here that say...16 +1 = ireland?
what does that mean...
You know, I have absolutely no idea what that means

NI is about 55-45 Protestant - Catholic (to simplify it a bit)

am i opening a can of worms here,i truly hope i aint....i hope too learn something about from were i am from..actuallly i am just an american,but it cant hurt too learn about others...no problem

Excuse my patchy history but it would take forever to try and put across all of the details and causes of the Troubles. The conflict in NI stems from the British Crown's attempts to subjugate Ireland by populating it with Brits loyal to the Protestant crown and these people were given land seized from the Irish as an incentive to move. This tactic worked particularly well in the North where the Protestant Ulster-scots became the establishment and the Catholic Irish were 2nd class citizens.

The Troubles flared up again in the 60s and 70s as a combination of the mistrust that had been present for generations and the denial of civil rights for the Catholics. The Republicans want to create a 32 county Republic of Ireland whereas the Unionists want to remain loyal to the UK and the crown and both sides were willing to go to use any means necessary to achieve their goals.

The peace proccess has been fairly successful with both sides having many of their demands met and compromise being found and it is the general feeling that the younger generation has a greater desire for change and progression with bombings and revenge attacks a thing of the past.

With the marching season upon us however the divisions in NI are still clearly there for many of the people who still refuse to accept the fact that they have more in common than different.

that was pretty concise,i am still confused though...from what i gather the brits basically paid off people to move to the north...and am i incorrect in assuming they were protestant?because arent the protestants for england?but a person from belfast told me the north is like 55-45 catholic..this is starting to hurt my head..ouch.

why dont everyone just have a group hug..lol...and kiss and smile and go about life?

sorry..i always run to nice when i am confused

I'm American, but I do know this- people get really weird about religion. Protestants and Catholics are virtually the same, they differ on a few things, but adhere to the same basic religion. However, it's still caused millions of deaths over the years. There's no use trying to rationalize what people do when they think god is backing them.

In 1155 Pope Adrian IV told Henry the Second that Ireland was part of England - or a least should be under the rule of the English crown.

The Irish did not seem to accept his holiness's view of international geo-politics.

Later they supported the "old pretender" in his attempt to seize the English crown and impose the Church of Rome upon the English people. (Which is ironic, considering it was the Church of Rome that said they should obey the englidh in the first place.)

There have been problems ever since. But it's really politics these days, and not to do with religion.

I never understood why the influential Irish-Americans never pushed Britain to get out of Ireland. Wasn't Kennedy of Irish descent? If an American president had told them to let go of N. Ireland it would have happened.

What does GB want with that little piece of land anyways?

I never understood why the influential Irish-Americans never pushed Britain to get out of Ireland. Wasn't Kennedy of Irish descent? If an American president had told them to let go of N. Ireland it would have happened.

What does GB want with that little piece of land anyways?

from what little i know,if the brits left..it would get very ugly...u would think they would want to leave...money wise....but,stiff upper lip and all that...maybe they should just pull out..it worked with my ex.....lol

You're a dirty man :D

Unless you meant something else...perhaps I'm the dirty one.

Oh, youre more than welcome to visit. Just dont make the mistake many tourists make of coming across all patronising..."oh, you know, my granmother was from here, im irish". it just makes people who actually are irish laugh. But you seem to have that under control anyway, so youll be fine :p

Ya. I lived there for years, and when I went back to visit my cousin he insisted on introducing me to everyone as his "American Cousin," and stopped just short of warning me not to correct him.

I'm American, but I do know this- people get really weird about religion. Protestants and Catholics are virtually the same, they differ on a few things, but adhere to the same basic religion. However, it's still caused millions of deaths over the years. There's no use trying to rationalize what people do when they think god is backing them.

It's not about religion. It's about ethnicity. It wasn't until about a hundred years ago that the English and Irish were even considered the same race, though by the standards of today in America the difference is largely boiled down to the difference between bad teeth and freckled skin.

I was just listening to an interview with the writer Dilip Hiro today and he said that the problem that the Brits faced (still do to a much smaller degree) in extricating themselves from Northern Ireland is the same as the Americans have in getting out (Dubya would never use a word like "extricate." at least not correctly) of Iraq.

Their presence there is causing the chaos that they're trying to stop. And they don't want to leave until they've stamped out the chaos. I'd go on, but I don't want to hijack, I'll stop here while I'm still in arguable relevance.

Christian = Orthodox + Catholic + Protestants (reformed) + some minority churches

Orthodox = Russian Church + Ukrainian Church + Greek Church + Bulgarian Church + Armenian Church + ...

Catholic = Roman Catholic + Coptic Catholics + Maronite Catholic + Greek Catholic + ...

Protestant = Calvinist + Lutheran + Baptist + Anglican + Presbyterian + Methodist + United Church (liberal) + Huguenot (French) + ...

(Add Armenian, Latvian, Assyrian, and some oddities...)

NOTE: Protestants have a very broad range of beliefs. Lutherans go along well with Catholics (usually). Modern Anglicans are friendly and progressive. The United Church is the most liberal. Baptists can be quite conservative, but so are South American Catholics. Presbytarians are... well, variable. Huguenots have a tradition of intellectual work.

I thought the fued was over bad feelings the Irish Catholics still had against Great Britain because of Cromwell. Is there much more to it then that?

That question cannot be answered in just a few sentences, especially as we are covering more than 500 years of history here.

Ireland has been for the most time a deeply Roman Catholic country, basically.
As far as I know (not being Irish myself, just living in the country), there is no exact date as to when the occupation by England began. Henry II claimed to be monarch of Ireland as well as England, but he never tried to enforce this in the country itself. This was done by his succesors, not in one battle but as a slow progress robbing Ireland of its nobility and sovereignity step by step. Ireland remained more or less independent until the 16th/17th century, when British rule finally took over.
The irish kept rebelling against their occupier, especially so after Henry VIII founded the church of England, seperating himself from the Roman Catholic church and demanding that all his subjects recognise him as the head of church. This led to serious trouble in England (Catholics who refused to convert were killed in the hundreds or fled the country), in Ireland it led to revolts.
The English crown around that time encouraged Protestants to settle in Ireland in an attempt to further the conversion of the Irish. As you can see today, that failed miserably.

In England, Catholics very soon became 2nd class citizens. They could not hold any office, they were during some periods not allowed to practice their faith, and as they didn't follow the state religion they were often regarded and treated as traitors. The Catholics in Ireland were not treated any differently.
The conditions under which they had to live grew worse and worse, the legislation became more and more discriminating. Catholic Irish couldn't own land, they had to live as tennants of Protestant Irish or English settlers, they couldn't hold any offices, they were not allowed to teach their children Gealic, they didn't have any parliamentary representation in England and were not allowed to keep their own laws but forced to accept the British.

When the Republic of Ireland became independent of England in 1921, the the majority of the province of Ulster decided to remain with Britain, due to the large number of protestants living there.
The Troubles were caused by that long history of suffering, oppression, prejudice and hate. A fraction of the IRA kept fighting after they won independence, to turn those Ulster counties into counties of the Republic of Ireland, whereas the protestants living there fiercely opposed that union, feeling that their loyalties lie with Britain.

If you want to read up on that, I find this page to be a rather good summary : http://www.irelandseye.com/aarticles/history/events/index.shtm