NationStates Jolt Archive

I have a question for all of you.
But first, bear with me for a second...

We've all witnessed or participated in the the big forum debates... left vs right, capitalism vs communism, the US vs everyone else, recent elections, international politics, wars, the list goes on and on.

Sometimes there are just topics that get people on both sides very heated... we've seen the flames, the rants, the obnoxious subjectivity, and we've seen the moderators get called in time and time again. People never seem to get tired of arguing the same opinions with the same dissenters, (with the occasional heaping dose of mudslinging) over and over again. Even though, here's the kicker, it always seems as though those particular giant debates just peter out towards the end without resolution.

All that in mind, I ask of you, how many of you have actually BENEFITTED from those great eternal debates? How many of you have been enlightened by the the other side's argument, realized your fault, and slowly altered your perception of the world, (or at least gave it a shot)? It seems to me that the vast majority of people would never have a change of heart following a "great eternal debate", and I just want to get some posts from people who have.

(I suppose that one may benefit from practicing their debating skills in a forum... but I'm more fucusing on the "enlightenment" thing...)

Does there need to be a reason?

It's fun...

It increases your post count a whole lot... :D


It makes you think...

I like debating.

It's fun.

Somedays I need a good argument.

Debates are the only way I can talk to people while pretending to do my homework :D

it broadens one's horizon. you get so many varing viewpoints that it's infact refreshing.

for instance, I've always considered myself a Creationist, but after talking to some people here, I find that I'm not. Sure I'm a Theist, and support Intelligent Design, but I am far from being a Creationist.

also it's fun learning how others think (or don't).

I have a question for all of you.
But first, bear with me for a second...

We've all witnessed or participated in the the big forum debates... left vs right, capitalism vs communism, the US vs everyone else, recent elections, international politics, wars, the list goes on and on.

Sometimes there are just topics that get people on both sides very heated... we've seen the flames, the rants, the obnoxious subjectivity, and we've seen the moderators get called in time and time again. People never seem to get tired of arguing the same opinions with the same dissenters, (with the occasional heaping dose of mudslinging) over and over again. Even though, here's the kicker, it always seems as though those particular giant debates just peter out towards the end without resolution.

Actually once in a while things get proven. Amazing though it seems. Not religious ones, but human rights, etc ones.

All that in mind, I ask of you, how many of you have actually BENEFITTED from those great eternal debates? How many of you have been enlightened by the the other side's argument, realized your fault, and slowly altered your perception of the world, (or at least gave it a shot)? It seems to me that the vast majority of people would never have a change of heart following a "great eternal debate", and I just want to get some posts from people who have.

(I suppose that one may benefit from practicing their debating skills in a forum... but I'm more fucusing on the "enlightenment" thing...)

I've learned so many things I didn't know.

I learned why Swift Boat Vets lied. Why Saddam is innocent of gasing Kurds. So many things. Also Libertarian almost never vote for their own party.

Debates are the only way I can talk to people while pretending to do my homework :D

Same here.

It opens your mind, is interesting and fun.

And for everyone person who refuses to listen to another argument and just flames, another person gets to see an argument from the other side and gain some understanding and some tolerance.

I have a question for all of you.
But first, bear with me for a second...

We've all witnessed or participated in the the big forum debates... left vs right, capitalism vs communism, the US vs everyone else, recent elections, international politics, wars, the list goes on and on.

Sometimes there are just topics that get people on both sides very heated... we've seen the flames, the rants, the obnoxious subjectivity, and we've seen the moderators get called in time and time again. People never seem to get tired of arguing the same opinions with the same dissenters, (with the occasional heaping dose of mudslinging) over and over again. Even though, here's the kicker, it always seems as though those particular giant debates just peter out towards the end without resolution.

All that in mind, I ask of you, how many of you have actually BENEFITTED from those great eternal debates? How many of you have been enlightened by the the other side's argument, realized your fault, and slowly altered your perception of the world, (or at least gave it a shot)? It seems to me that the vast majority of people would never have a change of heart following a "great eternal debate", and I just want to get some posts from people who have.

(I suppose that one may benefit from practicing their debating skills in a forum... but I'm more fucusing on the "enlightenment" thing...)

Absolutely benefited … not only has it entertained me but it also has given me a wealth of new sources and ideas that on my own I might not have encountered.

I wont say it changed my mind too much but it has helped me to further figure out exactly what I do feel

8 k posts all debate and I still enjoy it

What I don't understand is why my "What music are you listening to" thread, which was at almost 1000 count, got moved to the Jolt forums today? Makes no sense to moi. Especially since all the other "What genre is your fav" , etc. are still here? Isn't there some continuity here???

The forums are fun, and when I have a question, I can post it and get info from people who are knowledgeable about the subject. Like my pistol shooting thread. I got a ton of responses and someone who knew of a place to try out different guns for rent, not far from my house.

It's a nice resource. :)

It makes you think...
yep

It opens your mind, is interesting and fun.
what she said.



plus i have had benefit from all these same arguements: my own opinion does change with each one - i've slowly gone more and more left wing through the debates, reinforcing my ideas through having to argue their merit. its neat :)


plus debates aren't the whole point of these, or any, forums - i come here for the community and people as much, if not more, as i do for the debates

I have a question for all of you.
But first, bear with me for a second...

We've all witnessed or participated in the the big forum debates... left vs right, capitalism vs communism, the US vs everyone else, recent elections, international politics, wars, the list goes on and on.

Sometimes there are just topics that get people on both sides very heated... we've seen the flames, the rants, the obnoxious subjectivity, and we've seen the moderators get called in time and time again. People never seem to get tired of arguing the same opinions with the same dissenters, (with the occasional heaping dose of mudslinging) over and over again. Even though, here's the kicker, it always seems as though those particular giant debates just peter out towards the end without resolution.

All that in mind, I ask of you, how many of you have actually BENEFITTED from those great eternal debates? How many of you have been enlightened by the the other side's argument, realized your fault, and slowly altered your perception of the world, (or at least gave it a shot)? It seems to me that the vast majority of people would never have a change of heart following a "great eternal debate", and I just want to get some posts from people who have.

(I suppose that one may benefit from practicing their debating skills in a forum... but I'm more fucusing on the "enlightenment" thing...)

I think most of us are sharpening our debating skills while increasing our post counts...and just having fun. Oh, I know - that violates the whole point of engaging in debate - i.e., to win others over to our own point of view - but, oh well. Speaking for myself, I'm naturally an introvert so this is about as close as I ever really get to socializing with others most of the time. Sad, isn't it? ;)

No there isn't a point .... and that's the point.

You figure it out.

Remember the episode of Scrubs, called "My Overkill"?

Where Dr. Cox is determined to argue with someone?

I think many of us are like that.

I know I am. :D

The point is that there is no point.

Sherlock Holmes: "I wish to draw your attention to the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
Dr. Watson: "The dog did nothing in the night-time."
Sherlock Holmes: "That is the curious incident."

Does there need to be a reason?Well, I can't speak for the other Mods on this one, but I just need someone to "Lord it" over. That's the only reason I need for the rest of you to stay here. :D

[insert your laughter here]

--The Jovial States of Cogitation
"Laugh about it for a moment."
NationStates Self-Proclaimed Court Jester

Well, I can't speak for the other Mods on this one, but I just need someone to "Lord it" over. That's the only reason I need for the rest of you to stay here. :D

[insert your laughter here]

--The Jovial States of Cogitation
"Laugh about it for a moment."
NationStates Self-Proclaimed Court Jester

*Inserts laughter there*

You do know you could start up your own forum and be a mod?

Well, I can't speak for the other Mods on this one, but I just need someone to "Lord it" over. That's the only reason I need for the rest of you to stay here. :D

[insert your laughter here]

--The Jovial States of Cogitation
"Laugh about it for a moment."
NationStates Self-Proclaimed Court Jester
:p Nice

*laughts*

[place money in palm here]

*Inserts laughter there*

You do know you could start up your own forum and be a mod?He already is a mod!!! :rolleyes: (I know that was sarcastic...)


And anyway, Jolt is far larger and more fun! No-one joins those little online communities.

*Inserts laughter there*

You do know you could start up your own forum and be a mod?True, but I'd only Lord it over... what...? 10 people? If I'm lucky.

Here, I can Lord it over hundreds of forum regulars! :D

:p Nice

*laughts*

[place money in palm here]
Money (http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/money/images/big_bill_back.gif).

--The Jovial States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
NationStates Self-Proclaimed Court Jester

...

[edit] Okay, I suppose I should set a good example, now, and stop hijacking the topic.

Getting back on-topic, there will always be people who will firmly stand by their views and refuse to budge. These tend to be the same people who fervently argue for those views. Others, however, may find something that they never thought of before and reconsider what they've always believed. So, there is some point, admittedly not much of a point, but there is some point to it all.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
Founder and Delegate of The Realm of Ambrosia

:p Nice

*laughts*

[place money in palm here]

*Places old spanish paeseto not worth the metal it's made from in hand*

True, but I'd only Lord it over... what...? 10 people? If I'm lucky.

Here, I can Lord it over hundreds of forum regulars! :D


Money (http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/money/images/big_bill_back.gif).

--The Jovial States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
NationStates Self-Proclaimed Court Jester
YAY!!!11!!!

never benefitted
never changed
never got anything out of it

just got up and realized that i had wasted a few precious hours of my life that could have been spent in much better ways

i think that the arguments are a waste of time, most of the time. does anyone even read every single page of the debate? or every post, even? i know the majority of posters probably just read the first thing and hit "reply" without reading the other x amount of pages.

i think arguing forums are pointless.
i'm a fan of the relaxing chill.
and i'm a fan of the real-life deal too. thus why my OG nation died, along with its billions of people and 10k+ post count. and now, a couple months later i have a wimpy post count and newbie status, but that's okay. i'm not here much anyways. wahaha.

never benefitted
never changed
never got anything out of it

just got up and realized that i had wasted a few precious hours of my life that could have been spent in much better ways

i think that the arguments are a waste of time, most of the time. does anyone even read every single page of the debate? or every post, even? i know the majority of posters probably just read the first thing and hit "reply" without reading the other x amount of pages.

i think arguing forums are pointless.
--snip--

Okay, lemme see if I get this straight -- you VOLUNTARILY click the links that get you into these forums and threads, right? You then VOLUNTARILY read them and come to the conclusion that they're worthless. So instead of VOLUNTARILY choosing NOT to read further threads like the ones you dislike, you CONTINUE to read them and then complain, to the point of starting your own thread about the others' worthlessness.

Call me crazy (most do), but it seems to me that if you DON'T like something, your best option would be to NOT participate in it or even give it your attention. Since you didn't do that, one logical conclusion is that you yourself are attention-starved and figured whining would get you a little spotlight time.

See, THAT is something these forums have taught me. If I don't like the forum topic or think the level of discourse is too , I DON'T READ THEM. I, too was dumb enough to complain about the sophomoric nature of many threads until someone told me -- I think it was Cogitation, Sinuhue or Cat-Tribe -- that I had a simple option: ignore them.

See, that way I don't get irritated or waste my time, and those in the offending forum don't have to listen to me sound all superior and whine about how everything is [I]ad hominem this or post hoc ergo propter hoc that. That's why my post count is low (well, aside from the fact I couldn't care less about my post count, as those in the multiple thousands are largely posting just for the sake of their counts anyway).

It isn't noble to sit on a tombstone grumbling and groaning about the state of debate -- it's a waste of time. Remember: Nietzsche died a lonely madman -- Adam Sandler has a huge career in film.

Okay, lemme see if I get this straight -- you VOLUNTARILY click the links that get you into these forums and threads, right? You then VOLUNTARILY read them and come to the conclusion that they're worthless. So instead of VOLUNTARILY choosing NOT to read further threads like the ones you dislike, you CONTINUE to read them and then complain, to the point of starting your own thread about the others' worthlessness.

Call me crazy (most do), but it seems to me that if you DON'T like something, your best option would be to NOT participate in it or even give it your attention. Since you didn't do that, one logical conclusion is that you yourself are attention-starved and figured whining would get you a little spotlight time.

See, THAT is something these forums have taught me. If I don't like the forum topic or think the level of discourse is too , I DON'T READ THEM. I, too was dumb enough to complain about the sophomoric nature of many threads until someone told me -- I think it was Cogitation, Sinuhue or Cat-Tribe -- that I had a simple option: ignore them.

See, that way I don't get irritated or waste my time, and those in the offending forum don't have to listen to me sound all superior and whine about how everything is [I]ad hominem this or post hoc ergo propter hoc that. That's why my post count is low (well, aside from the fact I couldn't care less about my post count, as those in the multiple thousands are largely posting just for the sake of their counts anyway).

It isn't noble to sit on a tombstone grumbling and groaning about the state of debate -- it's a waste of time. Remember: Nietzsche died a lonely madman -- Adam Sandler has a huge career in film.

While I agree with most of this I disagree with most posters on this forum (the high counts) I am amazed at how little the people around here care about their post counts compared to other forums I have been on

Will people getting thousands of posts and leaving and deated and what not things are so dynamic that post count really does not matter beyond saying you have posted a lot

8k+ posts and 99 percent of them are all honest discussion (wont say 100 because there are a few silly smily posts in there … but no spam and no social threads)

Anyways the first part is right … but I don’t see postcount whores too much round these parts

Well, I can't speak for the other Mods on this one, but I just need someone to "Lord it" over. That's the only reason I need for the rest of you to stay here. :D

[insert your laughter here]

--The Jovial States of Cogitation
"Laugh about it for a moment."
NationStates Self-Proclaimed Court Jester

getting flippant in your old age Coggy ;)

getting flippant in your old age Coggy ;)"getting flippant"? You imply that I wasn't already there. :p

Being in my late twenties has made me rather crotchety, though. :D

--The Jovial States of Cogitation
"Laugh about it for a moment."
NationStates Self-Proclaimed Court Jester

While I agree with most of this I disagree with most posters on this forum (the high counts) I am amazed at how little the people around here care about their post counts compared to other forums I have been on

Will people getting thousands of posts and leaving and deated and what not things are so dynamic that post count really does not matter beyond saying you have posted a lot

8k+ posts and 99 percent of them are all honest discussion (wont say 100 because there are a few silly smily posts in there … but no spam and no social threads)

Anyways the first part is right … but I don’t see postcount whores too much round these parts

i don't give two hoots about my post count. What i DO care about is communication with people who are being up front with who they are...either by seriously discussing something or sharing humour.

O'Reilly's bar and Paradise Club at their best (which wasn't all the time) felt as if i was really close to the people posting - it was like being in a story with them. A priceless experience! (especially the 2 all-nighters we did :))

sometimes the forums are good, sometimes they aren't - i suspect it has a lot to do with what frame of mind i'm in when i log on :)

and don't forget - i love you all really :fluffle:

"getting flippant"? You imply that I wasn't already there. :p

Being in my late twenties has made me rather crotchety, though. :D

--The Jovial States of Cogitation
"Laugh about it for a moment."
NationStates Self-Proclaimed Court Jester

Oops! my bad :D

wait till you get to my age sweetie ;)

getting flippant in your old age Coggy ;)

Actually, since I started playing in 03, Cog has been the same cool guy as always. :)

I haven't noticed any more flippant behavior than usual, anyway. :D

Actually, since I started playing in 03, Cog has been the same cool guy as always. :)

I haven't noticed any more flippant behavior than usual, anyway. :D

maybe it's cos my first brush with Coggy was when i flouted rules i knew nothing about as a n00b :D

maybe it's cos my first brush with Coggy was when i flouted rules i knew nothing about as a n00b :D

Oh, you made Cog put on the old Mod hat, did ya? Hehe. That's a misleading first impression, I suppose. :)

You have a proto belief about some aspect of life. Now this can be in one of those 'taboo' subjects that you do not discuss over dinner. Politics, religion, prejudices etc.

So what do you do to establish if your belief holds water when others of differing beliefs attack it. Well me, I post it here, and then try to defend it. Some times I lose, so I discard that proto belief and rethink.

It is not always so positive though. At other times I assume others are testing their opinions, so I attack, not the poster, but the opinion.

It seems a useful forum to me.

Oh, you made Cog put on the old Mod hat, did ya? Hehe. That's a misleading first impression, I suppose. :)

i've seen another side of him since that's for sure ;)

You have a proto belief about some aspect of life. Now this can be in one of those 'taboo' subjects that you do not discuss over dinner. Politics, religion, prejudices etc.

So what do you do to establish if your belief holds water when others of differing beliefs attack it. Well me, I post it here, and then try to defend it. Some times I lose, so I discard that proto belief and rethink.

It is not always so positive though. At other times I assume others are testing their opinions, so I attack, not the poster, but the opinion.

It seems a useful forum to me.

There seems to be an enormous assumption there that if others attack and you loose, then your proto-belief was wrong.

i'm not sure i would agree with that as being a beneficial way to work...

There seems to be an enormous assumption there that if others attack and you loose, then your proto-belief was wrong.

i'm not sure i would agree with that as being a beneficial way to work...

I have, rightly or wrongly, a great deal of faith in my ability to support my opinions. (Ask PM about this for example.) If I lose a debate, then it is due to some fundamental flaw in the opinion I held. This may sound arrogant, but it is only a recognition of one of the two basic processes of belief formation that we, as humans, have available to us. The other is to simply blindly accept the opinion of another as an item of faith. That is one I choose not to use.

Ok, I got some good responses on that. Thanks. And don't stop posting just cuz I returned.

And I'm glad that there are alot of you who seem to glean something positive from these debates, becasue it sure would suck if all this endless pratter fell into the categories of either "preaching to the choir" or "falling on deaf ears."

What I think...
From my personal experience, in life, not just in forums, it seems that there are usually 3 kinds of people in an argument: those who vehemently agree with you and always have, those who adamantly disagree and always will, and those who seem like they are swayed by your argument until you realize that they are just "yessing you" to death because they honestly don't care one way or the other.

Armed with that opinion of people, I tend to (or try) not to debate if I am sure of what the response will be, be it positive or negative. But I also tend to think that opinions are developed slowly, over time, and often secretly... so as not to openly admit that one is wrong. (Especially when it comes to philosophy and politics.) During my college tenure I experienced such a shift in my view of the world and I realize that the change could never have come overnight, during one debate, it had to be the culmination of much soul-searching, if you will, over time. (On the contrary, a debate on the subject a few years ago may have furthur solidified my former opinions.) And sometimes I wonder, which is why I posted in the first place, why we argue again and again if we all know as I do, that it is highly unlikely that anyone will ever... win.

So thanks again.

I've been enlightened by the other sides arguments several times. I do think that a lot of people tend not to learn anything though, claiming absolute proofs to the truth in evolution/creationism and what not.