NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm normally a pretty optimistic person, but every once in a while, I step back and look at what is going on around the world and ask myself...take away the technological advances, take away the shifting lines on our maps, and has anything really changed over the thousands of years of human history? Is it really getting any better...or are the circumstances just different? Have will really improved the human condition in any meaningful way?

I think humanity's pretty much the same as it always has been - the "cream" of society is still the shite that floats to the top - but hopefully we've picked up a few good things along the way, like reasoning and rationality and so forth… it's going to go down, though. It already is.

Has pretty much been like this since humanity discovered agriculture and founded cities...

Well, there is the whole raising the life expectancy of the average human from their 20's to their 50's-70's.

And then there's the whole superpower thing that scares countries from attacking other countries viciously. Of course it's debatable, but really, when was the last time a massive country decided to run around and declare war? That's right, WW2. 60 some awkward years ago.

Then there's M.A.D., that's pretty good in stopping wars between current superpowers.

etc. etc.


EDIT: Damn, I'm sensing all this negative energy in the room! *waves hands trying to feel the charge*

I'm normally a pretty optimistic person, but every once in a while, I step back and look at what is going on around the world and ask myself...take away the technological advances, take away the shifting lines on our maps, and has anything really changed over the thousands of years of human history? Is it really getting any better...or are the circumstances just different? Have will really improved the human condition in any meaningful way?

Humanity hasn't changed much, but technology has made both positive and negative changes to the way we live.

Please don't ask all these deep philosophical questions, because they never fail to make me laugh. :)


In fact, only I know the truth about humanity...but I won't tell you! :p

And then there's the whole superpower thing that scares countries from attacking other countries viciously. Of course it's debatable, but really, when was the last time a massive country decided to run around and declare war? That's right, WW2. 60 some awkward years ago.

Then there's M.A.D., that's pretty good in stopping wars between current superpowers.

EDIT: Damn, I'm sensing all this negative energy in the room! *waves hands trying to feel the charge*

There's only one superpower today, the USA.

The only other power with intercontinental nuclear arms is Russia, and the US and Russia have not pointed weapons at each other for about 8 years now. (Though they could retarget in 10 seconds). MAD is pretty much dead at this point... except between India & Pakistan....

Have we really improved the human condition in any meaningful way?

No. Next question! ;)

Seriously, you know this. Underneath all our technology we are hairy, meat-eating, grunting animals mostly looking to get laid and find a place in the bushes to squat without being eaten by a predator. We live longer, but our lives suck more - with far more work, far more stress, far more complications and far more delusions. Life may have been "nasty, brutish and short" in pre-agricultural eras, but I'd wager it's nasty brutish and short for victims of those violent government repressions we as a species seem to love having.

Basically the only area that has improved is how fast and precise we kill each other with more advanced weaponry. That's about it.

Have we really improved the human condition in any meaningful way?

Yes, we really have. There has never been a better time to be born human than the 20th/21st centuries. There's still room for improvement, but it's a work-in-progress.

we're still killing each other for stupid, selfish reasons; still wanting after power; and still only really looking out for 'number one' (and i don't mean Will Riker ;))

oh but one thing has changed: we are destroying our environment and using up natural resources now faster than ever! w00t go us!! lets get as much short term gain as we can cos there ain't gonna be a long term at this rate :rolleyes:

Yes, it has. The US, for example, doesn't have the stomach to do what the superpower of the 13th Century did.

Basically the only area that has improved is how fast and precise we kill each other with more advanced weaponry. That's about it.

Indoor plumbing.

Until you've been in an outhouse in Virginia in August, you just don't understand. ;)

we're still killing each other for stupid, selfish reasons; still wanting after power; and still only really looking out for 'number one' (and i don't mean Will Riker ;))

oh but one thing has changed: we are destroying our environment and using up natural resources now faster than ever! w00t go us!! lets get as much short term gain as we can cos there ain't gonna be a long term at this rate :rolleyes:

Damn straight, and it sure is a hard decision or rather a "pick-hard" (:p) when it comes to being selfless.

and it sure is a hard decision or rather a "pick-hard" (:p)
*slaps j00*


come on man, that was awful :p

Yes, we really have. There has never been a better time to be born human than the 20th/21st centuries. There's still room for improvement, but it's a work-in-progress.


I'd definitely say so... I wouldn't want to live in a 21st century world whilst people still had the mindset of the medieval times.

*slaps j00*


come on man, that was awful :p

Hey, what else am I here for other than to provide bad jokes and make people laugh at me instead of the punchline? :D Seppatown!

Well, there is the whole raising the life expectancy of the average human from their 20's to their 50's-70's.
Life expectancy in Bangladesh is 38.

It's not a uniform increase, and the entire African continent is proof that it's not a PERMANENT increase.

And then there's the whole superpower thing that scares countries from attacking other countries viciously. Of course it's debatable, but really, when was the last time a massive country decided to run around and declare war? That's right, WW2. 60 some awkward years ago.
Not all that long in terms of human history. But the whole idea of 'world war' is fairly new. I read at one point that there have only been about 124 years of peace in the past 2000 years...even without nations invading one another, we still manage to commit genocide and visit atrocities upon one another.

Then there's M.A.D., that's pretty good in stopping wars between current superpowers.
Yet millions continue to die.

So really...has anything changed?

Yes, we really have. There has never been a better time to be born human than the 20th/21st centuries. There's still room for improvement, but it's a work-in-progress.
How do you figure that?

There's never been a better time to be born for SOME. For others, were they to look back at themselves down through all their incarnations, I doubt little would have changed.

I certainly wouldn't agree that this is the best century to have been born a Kurd, for example, or a Christian in Indonesia, or an orphaned child in Pakistan...

I'd definitely say so... I wouldn't want to live in a 21st century world whilst people still had the mindset of the medieval times.

Only some have the 11th - 13th centuries in mind.

Of course, to deal with them, we may have to resort to the concepts of the major winners of the 13th century.

Life expectancy in Bangladesh is 38.

It's not a uniform increase, and the entire African continent is proof that it's not a PERMANENT increase.


Not all that long in terms of human history. But the whole idea of 'world war' is fairly new. I read at one point that there have only been about 124 years of peace in the past 2000 years...even without nations invading one another, we still manage to commit genocide and visit atrocities upon one another.


Yet millions continue to die.

So really...has anything changed?

YES! I JUST SAID SO! Your just picking on little reasons why I'm wrong when there's bigger instances where I'm right.

BE. OPTIMISTIC!

Indoor plumbing.

Until you've been in an outhouse in Virginia in August, you just don't understand. ;)
Technological improvement. Has it really improved the human condition? Considering many places still don't have indoor plumbing, I'd have to say no.

How do you figure that?

There's never been a better time to be born for SOME. For others, were they to look back at themselves down through all their incarnations, I doubt little would have changed.

I certainly wouldn't agree that this is the best century to have been born a Kurd, for example, or a Christian in Indonesia, or an orphaned child in Pakistan...

Yeah... but one can pick examples for any century like that.

...but for lots of centuries, the examples become the norm, not the exception. I wouldnt' want to be a Jew, for example, anytime since the fall of the Temple. I wouldn't want to be a Pole from 1700-1990. I wouldn't want to be an American Indian after 1490... etc.

Sinuhue are you really trying to say that only changing things for some people is the same as not changing things at all? I can't see the logical process there, quite frankly. You can't change everything in one go.

How do you figure that?

There's never been a better time to be born for SOME. For others, were they to look back at themselves down through all their incarnations, I doubt little would have changed.

I certainly wouldn't agree that this is the best century to have been born a Kurd, for example, or a Christian in Indonesia, or an orphaned child in Pakistan...

But when was a good time to be born in those situations? Like Dobbs said, it's a work in progress. Lots of normal people are getting a chance at a better life (It's not impossible for the poor in western nations to rise to the top now, as opposed to when one of the few available paths to a comfortable life was the navy, in Britain anyway.) I'd rather have the gain as it happens than have the whole world equally terrible.

I'd definitely say so... I wouldn't want to live in a 21st century world whilst people still had the mindset of the medieval times.
And yet, had you been born into my tribe even 200 years ago, you would have been accepted as who you are.

And no doubt that would be true in different cultures, at different times, around the world.

The 20th/21st centuries do not have a monopoly on 'tolerance and understanding'. Far from it.

YES! I JUST SAID SO! Your just picking on little reasons why I'm wrong when there's bigger instances where I'm right.

BE. OPTIMISTIC!
No, not little reasons. Nothing that you have brought up can be definitively said to have caused an improvement in the human condition.

Sinuhue are you really trying to say that only changing things for some people is the same as not changing things at all? I can't see the logical process there, quite frankly. You can't change everything in one go.
Yeah I think I tried to say that somewhere but his pessimism was beating the crap out of me and I had to maintain a defensive offense.

Fire torpedos.

I'm normally a pretty optimistic person, but every once in a while, I step back and look at what is going on around the world and ask myself...take away the technological advances, take away the shifting lines on our maps, and has anything really changed over the thousands of years of human history? Is it really getting any better...or are the circumstances just different? Have will really improved the human condition in any meaningful way?
And if it hasn't?

No, not little reasons. Nothing that you have brought up can be definitively said to have caused an improvement in the human condition.
What the bloody hell do you think?

You think that just because people in Bangladesh people live to be 38, all other 5.something billion people are dying just as soon?

Millions are dying, but BILLIONS are living

*shakes you*

BE REASONABLE!

To me, it seems as though we have a constant battle going on between our baser nature, and our more compassionate nature. These sides are both winning and losing all the time, but nothing really gets worse, or gets better overall. That does not mean I think we should give up and stop trying to improve. Far from it! If we DID stop, one side would finally win. Believe me, I prefer the stasis to the final victory of the one over the other. It is just disheartening sometimes to think that despite the fact that things are 'easier' and more 'convenient' now...it doesn't mean they are 'better'.

I think I like your sexuality threads better.

I think I like your sexuality threads better.
At least he talks depressingly about amusing things.

This is just plain depressing.

I think I like your sexuality threads better.
Am I depressing you? Then frick off:). I'm moody today...and your thread about the chess game isn't much fun either! :fluffle:

Edit: Don't worry, I still love life...I just hate the big picture sometimes.

Well, no, but you've improved the world a whole lot.

You see, the whole purpose of humanity is to "set the stage" for the Universal Masterrace. Eventually it shall develop nuclear weapons of such capability, which will be used to such effect, that they will wipe out the entire human race and cause the planet Earth to become radioactive with the ruins of its civilization still standing. It'll take a few hundred thousand years after the fall of humanity for the scene to become ready.

Then the Metal People who feed on radiation shall arise... and conquer the universe... with me as their leader!!!

Yeah... but one can pick examples for any century like that.

...but for lots of centuries, the examples become the norm, not the exception. I wouldnt' want to be a Jew, for example, anytime since the fall of the Temple. I wouldn't want to be a Pole from 1700-1990. I wouldn't want to be an American Indian after 1490... etc.
So do you think things are better now, or about the same?

At least he talks depressingly about amusing things.

This is just plain depressing."He"?

If you look at life expectancy and tech convenience as a guage if improvement, then yes. However, what is the quality of our lives now. Rushing around, stressed out, more illnesses, many people unhappy. Stress is what I'm referring to.

It seems that when life was simpler, people didn't stress about this junk. They may have stressed a bit about other things, however not to the extent that people in this whirlwind today stress out. It makes life a less enjoyable experience for more people. More serial killers... (Why mostly in the U.S.), people who are vain to the point of "keeping up with the Joneses" and stress because they're not driving a Mercedes. All things that, when it comes down to it, don't matter. We just have to convince ourselves of that. THEN life will be better.

Sinuhue are you really trying to say that only changing things for some people is the same as not changing things at all? I can't see the logical process there, quite frankly. You can't change everything in one go.
No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that all through history, people have been oppressed, and have treated each other horribly. Different people, at different times, for different reasons. So, now, certain groups that were historically oppressed are a bit more free...but other groups are now bearing the brunt. And in a hundred years, the focus will change once again.

What I'm questioning, what I'm doubting, is our ability as a species to rise above our differences and make a real change. We have invented new technologies, tried new political and economic systems, but have we ever really made the fundamental change to ourselves that is necessary for real improvement? I need some light here, people.

Am I depressing you? Then fuck off:). I'm moody today...and your thread about the chess game isn't much fun either! :fluffle:

Scrabble. Hey, I didn't even write that, I just brought it over from somewhere else so we could throw it around...

I did add some pics to the girls/guns thread...

(It's not impossible for the poor in western nations to rise to the top now, as opposed to when one of the few available paths to a comfortable life was the navy, in Britain anyway.) I'd rather have the gain as it happens than have the whole world equally terrible.
It wasn't every truly impossible for some to rise. But the numbers are always few. Wealth and opportunity have been concentrated into geographical regions, so yes, that is different, but overall, does it mean improvement, or just shift?

And if it hasn't?
I don't know. I keep trying anyway. We all do. But it does change my perspective on how I try.

So do you think things are better now, or about the same?

Socialogically, things are pretty much the same. One can always find better or worse examples.

Technologically, things usually improve with every passing decade/century...

And yet, had you been born into my tribe even 200 years ago, you would have been accepted as who you are.

And no doubt that would be true in different cultures, at different times, around the world.

The 20th/21st centuries do not have a monopoly on 'tolerance and understanding'. Far from it.

No, certainly not... the middle Eastern cultures just before the crusades were very tolerant, allowing christians into their holy cities as long as they were unarmed... they had their own flaws, I'm sure, but as far as religious tolerance goes, they were good. I was more thinking of where I am, to be honest... you have to remember there was a time in Scotland where musical instruments were illegal, and that was more the mindset I was thinking back to. I think that whilst the pages have been turned back in a few circumstances, we're making some unified progress, although it is slow.

If you look at life expectancy and tech convenience as a guage if improvement, then yes. However, what is the quality of our lives now. Rushing around, stressed out, more illnesses, many people unhappy. Stress is what I'm referring to.

It seems that when life was simpler, people didn't stress about this junk. They may have stressed a bit about other things, however not to the extent that people in this whirlwind today stress out. It makes life a less enjoyable experience for more people. More serial killers... (Why mostly in the U.S.), people who are vain to the point of "keeping up with the Joneses" and stress because they're not driving a Mercedes. All things that, when it comes down to it, don't matter. We just have to convince ourselves of that. THEN life will be better.
exactly - if you think economic growth is more important than people's happiness then we've made plenty of progress.
if not maybe you can see that the uber-stressed, materialisic, consumerist world we've had painted and dictated by capitalism and corporations over the last couple of centuries, actually doesn't make people intrinsically happier.
its time for a real change - capitalism has got us this far, to the point where the greatest struggle in life is not simply to survive, but is for meaning. thank you capitalism, now move over or we'll all burn out, both sociologically, enviornmentally and personally. time for a change!

What the bloody hell do you think?

You think that just because people in Bangladesh people live to be 38, all other 5.something billion people are dying just as soon?

Millions are dying, but BILLIONS are living

*shakes you*

BE REASONABLE!
You are talking about total numbers, but you can't compare it that way. The world is much more populated now...you need to look at overall patterns. Is the percentage of those living longer really that much greater than it has been historically? And do you link quality of life to lifespan?

At least he talks depressingly about amusing things.

This is just plain depressing.
SHE, DAMNIT! :D

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that all through history, people have been oppressed, and have treated each other horribly. Different people, at different times, for different reasons. So, now, certain groups that were historically oppressed are a bit more free...but other groups are now bearing the brunt. And in a hundred years, the focus will change once again.

What I'm questioning, what I'm doubting, is our ability as a species to rise above our differences and make a real change. We have invented new technologies, tried new political and economic systems, but have we every really made the fundamental change to ourselves that is necessary for real improvement? I need some light here, people.

I think there have been improvements, it's just slow.

It wasn't every truly impossible for some to rise. But the numbers are always few. Wealth and opportunity have been concentrated into geographical regions, so yes, that is different, but overall, does it mean improvement, or just shift?

Shift and improvement. Whilst wealth used to be concentrated, to use a European example, in Rome, it has spread out to fill the whole of Western Europe at least. Someone born in madrid doesn't need to move to Rome now to make a success of their life, which is an improvement of some kind.

exactly - if you think economic growth is more important than people's happiness then we've made plenty of progress.
if not maybe you can see that the uber-stressed, materialisic, consumerist world we've had painted and dictated by capitalism and corporations over the last couple of centuries, actually doesn't make people intrinsically happier.
its time for a real change - capitalism has got us this far, to the point where the greatest struggle in life is not simply to survive, but is for meaning. thank you capitalism, now move over or we'll all burn out, both sociologically, enviornmentally and personally. time for a change!
Now this is what I'm talking about!

Pure Metal, you always manage to inspire me...because you seem to GET what I'm saying, even when I'm a bit confused myself:).

VIVA LA REVOLUCION!!!!!

I don't know. I keep trying anyway. We all do. But it does change my perspective on how I try.
"Do not 'try.' Either do, or do not."

Shift and improvement. Whilst wealth used to be concentrated, to use a European example, in Rome, it has spread out to fill the whole of Western Europe at least. Someone born in madrid doesn't need to move to Rome now to make a success of their life, which is an improvement of some kind.
Not someone born in Madrid, maybe...but someone born in Kenya, perhaps...and even people living in our own countries are being left out of the 'chance to succeed'.

Empires rise and fall. Their spheres of influence change. Beauty is wrought, then destroyed, and begun again. It's a cycle...and I don't think we've broken out of it. I'm not sure we can.

"Do not 'try.' Either do, or do not."
ya ya ya Yoda... :D

exactly - if you think economic growth is more important than people's happiness then we've made plenty of progress.

if not maybe you can see that the uber-stressed, materialisic, consumerist world we've had painted and dictated by capitalism and corporations over the last couple of centuries, actually doesn't make people intrinsically happier.
its time for a real change - capitalism has got us this far, to the point where the greatest struggle in life is not simply to survive, but is for meaning. thank you capitalism, now move over or we'll all burn out, both sociologically, enviornmentally and personally. time for a change!
There needs to be a paradigm shift in perception. People will need to understand that "happiness" is an inner state not dependent on outer circumstances.

ya ya ya Yoda... :D
Hey! Lotta truth in that statement, regardless of whence it came! :p

There needs to be a paradigm shift in perception. People will need to understand that "happiness" is an inner state not dependent on outer circumstances.
We keep losing those people to the Hari Krishnas :(

Empires rise and fall. Their spheres of influence change. Beauty is wrought, then destroyed, and begun again. It's a cycle...and I don't think we've broken out of it. I'm not sure we can.

Geez... that's as uplifting as a CD of Tori Amos singing Slyvia Plath poetry...

We keep losing those people to the Hari Krishnas :(
Perhaps there's a message in that somewhere. :)

Now this is what I'm talking about!

Pure Metal, you always manage to inspire me...because you seem to GET what I'm saying, even when I'm a bit confused myself:).

VIVA LA REVOLUCION!!!!!
w00t! go me! :p
:fluffle: :fluffle:

We keep losing those people to the Hari Krishnas :(

I saw a horde of those guys in Prague a while ago. Maybe a hundred. They do a little jog around the city at certain times of day. Good drumming, but the chanting was second rate... definitely not as good as a good old fashioned Orthodox Funeral Dirge or the Benedictine Monks.

Geez... that's as uplifting as a CD of Tori Amos singing Slyvia Plath poetry...
Or Marilyn Manson singing a Leonard Cohen song?

Or Marilyn Manson singing a Leonard Cohen song?

Hmmm.... actually, that'd just be amusing! :)

I find it a greatly liberating personal growth experience that I don't have to spend every day worrying about cholera.

It depends on what exactly are we as humans are looking for.

Quality of life is a very subjective term.

Is it life span? peace and prosperity? comfort of living? scientific knowledge? freedom, liberty and equality? spirituality? our understanding of our purpose of life?

Originally Posted by Sinuhue
We keep losing those people to the Hari Krishnas

You do mean Hare Krishna ! right?

PS: Hari is another name for Krishna.

Up until approximately 175 years ago, astrology was a widely practiced and accepted art in Western civilization, and had been since the seeds of Western civilization were planted in Greece, two thousand year earlier. So thoroughly was the campaign to stamp it out in the 19th Century, that today most Western people have no idea how much a part of the culture of their ancestors it was.


~Everything changes, and nothing ever changes.

I find it a greatly liberating personal growth experience that I don't have to spend every day worrying about cholera.
Good for you. Too bad millions still do.

You do mean Hare Krishna ! right?

PS: Hari is another name for Krishna.
I don't know...I'd say I was talking out of my ass on that one, but I'd actually have to have been typing out of it, so I'll just let it drop before the images get too weird:).

its all been downhill since the neolithic era.

back then we worked for ourselves, men about 10 hours a week, women about 30. we provided for ourselves and our families everything we needed.

once we invented "civilization" it meant that part of our work went to support others. we specialized in one or 2 things and used our "profit" to buy what we lacked. some people provided nothing for themselves and relied on TAX to support their lives. (think priests and pharoes)

it was not until the medical advances of the 20th century that civilized life had a chance of being any way better than "primitive" life. now at least we can fix some of the illnesses that rob our quality of life. we can spend our free time bathed in art of one kind or other.

Please don't ask all these deep philosophical questions, because they never fail to make me laugh. :)


In fact, only I know the truth about humanity...but I won't tell you! :p
You mean the fact that we're a bunch of stupid, oblivious-to-the-world-around-us, hypocritical, racist sacks of meat and bone and crap?

You mean the fact that we're a bunch of stupid, oblivious-to-the-world-around-us, hypocritical, racist sacks of meat and bone and crap?

you maybe but not I...bet your a lot of fun to be around

People of the Neolithic revolution probably would not have fought for the betterment of other tribes at costs to their own and forgave the material debt. (American Civil War)

Only in modern times have western styled militaries began treating the wounds of enemy combatants as a matter of standard operation procedure.

You see, the whole purpose of humanity is to "set the stage" for the Universal Masterrace. Eventually it shall develop nuclear weapons of such capability, which will be used to such effect, that they will wipe out the entire human race and cause the planet Earth to become radioactive with the ruins of its civilization still standing. It'll take a few hundred thousand years after the fall of humanity for the scene to become ready.
Cool! :)

*loves science fiction special effects*

Well, no, but you've improved the world a whole lot.
Agreed.

Good for you. Too bad millions still do.

Yes, I know. This saddens me. They, too, should know the liberation and freedom that comes along with not having to worry about crapping out your intestinal lining.

Cholera is a horrible, horrible disease.