NationStates Jolt Archive


How disgusted are you by Japan?

Glinde Nessroe
22-06-2005, 07:31
“If we can imagine a horse having two or three explosive spears stuck in its stomach and being made to pull a butcher’s truck through the streets of London while it pours blood into the gutter, we shall have an idea of the method of killing. The gunners themselves admit that if whales could scream, the industry would stop for nobody would be able to stand it.”

Just on a scale of one to ten?

Respect for Japan just goes further downhill...such a beautiful country totally stained by this. I know it's been there for yonks but now they wanna go after hump backs...grrr. Never ever going to Japan, wouldn't want to support such an evil whale eating nation.

A whaling topic....And yes I realise that not all Japanese would support this but the nation has the strongest support for it...scientific research my ass!

EDIT- That's right I generalised, don't forget Norway! They've been outright ignoring the treaty, Japan is just closer to home for me and actually take wahels from Australian Artic waters. So no offence to the non-world killing Japanese citizens.
Monkeypimp
22-06-2005, 07:33
Mention the word 'whaling' somewhere. There are a lot of slow people on this forum.


[edit] goodo (I'm against it btw)[/edit
NERVUN
22-06-2005, 07:34
“If we can imagine a horse having two or three explosive spears stuck in its stomach and being made to pull a butcher’s truck through the streets of London while it pours blood into the gutter, we shall have an idea of the method of killing. The gunners themselves admit that if whales could scream, the industry would stop for nobody would be able to stand it.”

Just on a scale of one to ten?

Respect for Japan just goes further downhill...such a beautiful country totally stained by this. I know it's been there for yonks but now they wanna go after hump backs...grrr. Never ever going to Japan, wouldn't want to support such an evil whale eating nation.
It should be noted that not everyone in Japan eats whale. I disagree with Japan's stance, but don't paint the whole country under one broad brush.
Ryanania
22-06-2005, 07:37
What makes eating whale any worse than eating pork?
New Shiron
22-06-2005, 07:39
Japanese whaling has been completely a luxury industry for decades... shame on them.

But they aren't the only ones guilty, they just are the ones being the most obnoxious about continuing. Even during the whaling ban, they were still allowed under the treaty to kill a certain number (the exact number of which escapes me) of whales each year for "research purposes" and they did so. A MSN Slate magazine article a few months ago even talked about visiting a shop selling whale steak and described it in detail (I wish I had the link but its been a long time and I never imagined I would ever need to quote it, oh well).
Non Aligned States
22-06-2005, 07:40
What makes eating whale any worse than eating pork?

Only the fact that the whales can't be bred in captivity on a mass scale, throwing out the possibility of an economically feasible whale farm. As such, all whales used are from the wild and could possibly be hunted to extinction.

I do believe it has already happened to several species.
Lacadaemon
22-06-2005, 07:40
What makes eating whale any worse than eating pork?

People pay to go whale watching, you don't get much interest in pork watching trips.

(Though I did once visit a boar farm in Yorkshire. You could play with the "boarlets" scratch the boars and generally muck around and have a good time with the animals. They were very well kept and very friendly. Later that evening I had some boar chops. And very tasty they were too.)
Trans-Caspia
22-06-2005, 07:40
“If we can imagine a horse having two or three explosive spears stuck in its stomach and being made to pull a butcher’s truck through the streets of London while it pours blood into the gutter, we shall have an idea of the method of killing. The gunners themselves admit that if whales could scream, the industry would stop for nobody would be able to stand it.”

Whaling sucks. Why Japan of all countries? I'm not a Japophile or anything, but I thought they at least were animal friendly.
Undelia
22-06-2005, 07:40
Whaling is absolutely disgusting. Whales are very intelligent creatures, and the method of killing them is barbaric.

It should be noted that not everyone in Japan eats whale.[list]
Whaling byproducts are used for a lot more than whaling. Got this here (http://www.kcpc.usyd.edu.au/discovery/9.5.1/9.5.1_whale.html).

lamp oil (from sperm oil)
margarine and cooking oil (from whale oil)
candles, soaps, cosmetics and perfumes (from sperm oil)
corsets and umbrellas (from whalebone)
whale-meat for human consumption
animal feed (from meat meal)
fertiliser (from bone meal)
string for tennis racquets (from tendons)
New Fuglies
22-06-2005, 07:42
What makes Japan worse than Norway for example, or perhaps the several native North American tribes who have hunted whales for thousands of years? :confused:
New Shiron
22-06-2005, 07:43
What makes eating whale any worse than eating pork?

Pigs can be brought to market within a year of being born, whales generally take about the same length of time to reach maturity as a human for one thing. For another, the toothed whales are extremely intelligent and it has been theorized that they may be sentient. The Baleen whales are not as intelligent but may also be sentient, although the jury on both of those is still out.

Pigs are very smart, but they aren't even close to sentience. Killing a being that is self aware, should that be the case, comes awfully close to murder in every way.

Since it is suspected that whales are sentient, than the reasonable strategy would be to refrain from killing them. Until we know for sure.

Even if they aren't, reasonable fishery management would seem to call for not killing animals that reproduce very slowly, and are already rare or even endangered (depending on the species).
Dobbsworld
22-06-2005, 07:44
I have so many other, better reasons to be disgusted by Japan:

Sumo wrestling.
Anime.
Cel phones with buttons so small you hit four keys with one fingertip.
The Iron Chef.
Shonen Knife.
Glinde Nessroe
22-06-2005, 07:45
Japanese whaling has been completely a luxury industry for decades... shame on them.

But they aren't the only ones guilty, they just are the ones being the most obnoxious about continuing. Even during the whaling ban, they were still allowed under the treaty to kill a certain number (the exact number of which escapes me) of whales each year for "research purposes" and they did so. A MSN Slate magazine article a few months ago even talked about visiting a shop selling whale steak and described it in detail (I wish I had the link but its been a long time and I never imagined I would ever need to quote it, oh well).

It was 440 they now want to more than double that, currently looking for an inscrease to around 945 whales per year.
New Fuglies
22-06-2005, 07:46
I have so many other, better reasons to be disgusted by Japan:

Sumo wrestling.
Anime.
Cel phones with buttons so small you hit four keys with one fingertip.
The Iron Chef.
Shonen Knife.

You forgot sushi and the Datsun B-210.
Glinde Nessroe
22-06-2005, 07:46
What makes Japan worse than Norway for example, or perhaps the several native North American tribes who have hunted whales for thousands of years? :confused:

Oh damn those North American Tribes that pull in less then ten whales per year! I mean ya know whats 10 to 440 right?
Undelia
22-06-2005, 07:47
What makes eating whale any worse than eating pork?

Considering that pigs are smarter than most dogs, I personally, don’t see a difference.

Whaling sucks. Why Japan of all countries? I'm not a Japophile or anything, but I thought they at least were animal friendly.

Considering the prevalence of Buddhism in their society, they generally are very good to animals. However, they have been whaling for centuries. it’s a tradition for them. A tradition, I guess, they feel they are to good to give up, considering Europe and Northern North America have ended their whaling.
Monkeypimp
22-06-2005, 07:48
What makes Japan worse than Norway for example, or perhaps the several native North American tribes who have hunted whales for thousands of years? :confused:

The tribes do it on a small scale for purposes of their own survival, while Norway has oil which smooths over any international disagreement.
Ryanania
22-06-2005, 07:48
Japan isn't the only country that whales.

As long as they only kill a certain amount of whales so that they won't go extinct, it's the same as going deer hunting. Whales are very smart, yes, but until we can communicate with them on the same level we can communicate with other humans, I don't see it as murther.
New Fuglies
22-06-2005, 07:50
Oh damn those North American Tribes that pull in less then ten whales per year! I mean ya know whats 10 to 440 right?

Oh damn those Japanese because like native North Americans, Scandinavian cultures and such all have hunted whales for a very long time.
Undelia
22-06-2005, 07:50
while Norway has oil which smooths over any international disagreement.

Does Norway still whale?
Dobbsworld
22-06-2005, 07:51
You forgot sushi and the Datsun B-210.

No, I like the sushi. The cars? Beats me, I'm not a driver.
Monkeypimp
22-06-2005, 07:53
Does Norway still whale?

I think so, but I'm not sure to what extent.



Pretty much every single commercial fish is well over fished anyway. Japan will kill off the Southern bluefin tuna before they kill of the whales (although there might have been an update on their fishing of them since).
Glinde Nessroe
22-06-2005, 07:53
Oh damn those Japanese because like native North Americans, Scandinavian cultures and such all have hunted whales for a very long time.

How many tribes claim scientific research because they have to see if the "whales are eating away the fish industry" and then hunt whales that don't even eat fish.

For that matter how many tribes launch grenade tipped spears at whales, and your not listening, try the math. 10....440....hmm whats the difference there?
NERVUN
22-06-2005, 07:53
Oh damn those Japanese because like native North Americans, Scandinavian cultures and such all have hunted whales for a very long time.
That's actually very much in dispute, which is part of the problem. Japan claims tradition as a reason to whale, but in actuality, its whaling tradition was one small area that hunted whals when the passed close to Japan, and during times when other fishes were not avlable. Actually many older Japanese remember whale meat as this tough, rubbery stuff you DIDN'T want to eat, but would have gotten sometime during the winter.
Trans-Caspia
22-06-2005, 07:55
Considering the prevalence of Buddhism in their society, they generally are very good to animals. However, they have been whaling for centuries. it’s a tradition for them. A tradition, I guess, they feel they are to good to give up, considering Europe and Northern North America have ended their whaling.

OH YEAH?!?! WELL I SAY...

Thanks. That cleared something up. :cool:
Sevastra
22-06-2005, 07:57
Killing a being that is self aware, should that be the case, comes awfully close to murder in every way.

Forgive me for completely skewing what you said, but that's the best damn pro-choice (relating to abortion, not whaling) argument I've ever heard. Mind if I steal it? ;)
Undelia
22-06-2005, 07:58
That's actually very much in dispute, which is part of the problem. Japan claims tradition as a reason to whale, but in actuality, its whaling tradition was one small area that hunted whals when the passed close to Japan, and during times when other fishes were not avlable. Actually many older Japanese remember whale meat as this tough, rubbery stuff you DIDN'T want to eat, but would have gotten sometime during the winter.

Very interesting. I don’t care how long they have been doing it, though, It’s gut wrenchingly awful.
New Fuglies
22-06-2005, 07:59
How many tribes claim scientific research because they have to see if the "whales are eating away the fish industry" and then hunt whales that don't even eat fish.

For that matter how many tribes launch grenade tipped spears at whales, and your not listening, try the math. 10....440....hmm whats the difference there?


Wellll... I have a hunch if the coastal native tribes had a population such as Japan's as well as its technological level things wouldn't be much... different.


*detects a hint of racism here*
Harlesburg
22-06-2005, 08:03
I dont mind the whale hunting as long as numbers are sustainable something i refuse to believe they are currently.

Ive a better proposal the South Pacific and Antartica become Australian and New Zealands(South America too if they play by the rules) absolute Jurisdiction and any sign of illegal activity in these waters gets you scuttled with our mighty 4 in guns. :)
Coquetvia
22-06-2005, 08:03
My biggest problem with Japan at the moment isn't that they want to hunt whales. They've wanted to do that since the start of the IWC.

My problem is with their apparent disregard for the IWC and the other nations within it. Japan are signed on to the IWC, so they should follow it's rules.

Japan are almost certainly going against it's rules with their 'scientific' whaling, and wanting to increase the number of whales killed for 'scientific' purposes is absurd. What would Japanese scientists need with more than 440 whales a year anyway? Come to think of it, why do they need that many per year to test on?

And when they have finished using the whales for their 'scientific' purposes, what happens to the whales? They get used as food and other products. How suprising.

Japan isn't the only country that wants to hunt whales, but they are certainly the most aggressive about it, and have ignored overtures from the Australian Government on the matter.

Japan appears to be trying to prove that they only follow the lead of the international community of nations when it benefits them - that's the big problem with Japan.
Undelia
22-06-2005, 08:04
Forgive me for completely skewing what you said, but that's the best damn pro-choice (relating to abortion, not whaling) argument I've ever heard. Mind if I steal it?


I don’t see how awfully close to murder is a good argument, but that’s just me. (That was not supposed to be as conceited as it sounded)
Glinde Nessroe
22-06-2005, 08:06
http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/MultimediaFiles/Live/Image/1932.jpg here's the old scientific research of "How much can I run over a whale til it dies" very important for the economy.
Glinde Nessroe
22-06-2005, 08:09
Wellll... I have a hunch if the coastal native tribes had a population such as Japan's as well as its technological level things wouldn't be much... different.


*detects a hint of racism here*

Pardon, wtf are you talking about the technological things wouldn't have made a difference, how many harpoon launching cannons did the Native Indians have? And how many times did they go on ships to Antarctica? Tell me that.

My biggest problem with Japan at the moment isn't that they want to hunt whales. They've wanted to do that since the start of the IWC.

My problem is with their apparent disregard for the IWC and the other nations within it. Japan are signed on to the IWC, so they should follow it's rules.

Japan are almost certainly going against it's rules with their 'scientific' whaling, and wanting to increase the number of whales killed for 'scientific' purposes is absurd. What would Japanese scientists need with more than 440 whales a year anyway? Come to think of it, why do they need that many per year to test on?

And when they have finished using the whales for their 'scientific' purposes, what happens to the whales? They get used as food and other products. How suprising.

Japan isn't the only country that wants to hunt whales, but they are certainly the most aggressive about it, and have ignored overtures from the Australian Government on the matter.

Japan appears to be trying to prove that they only follow the lead of the international community of nations when it benefits them - that's the big problem with Japan.

They also pry on small coastal nations who need they're backing to add votes for their 'science' loophole bs.
NERVUN
22-06-2005, 08:10
Japan appears to be trying to prove that they only follow the lead of the international community of nations when it benefits them - that's the big problem with Japan.
You've just described every other nation on the planet, not just Japan.

BTW, Australia could stop Japan's whaling ambitions, it would just have to close its ports to Japan's fleet. I would be far too expensive to stock for a round trip for whaling without a stop over to refuling and supplies in Austrialia. Guess what PM Howard won't do however?
Sevastra
22-06-2005, 08:11
I don’t see how awfully close to murder is a good argument, but that’s just me. (That was not supposed to be as conceited as it sounded)

Eh, it didn't sound conceited to me. I meant that, since a fetus can't be shown to have self-awareness, it isn't murder.

And I'll stop right there - and encourage others to ignore this, as it was an exercise in admittedly cheap humor AND in bad taste - and shut my mouth now. I know better.
New Fuglies
22-06-2005, 08:11
http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/MultimediaFiles/Live/Image/1932.jpg here's the old scientific research of "How much can I run over a whale til it dies" very important for the economy.


Kinda reminds me of those poor Manatees in the Florida everglades so viciously chewed up by pleasure boats and such with no regard for how daggum tasty is Manatee meat.

Where's the condemnation of the US pleasure boat industry?
Glinde Nessroe
22-06-2005, 08:12
You've just described every other nation on the planet, not just Japan.

BTW, Australia could stop Japan's whaling ambitions, it would just have to close its ports to Japan's fleet. I would be far too expensive to stock for a round trip for whaling without a stop over to refuling and supplies in Austrialia. Guess what PM Howard won't do however?

Yeah John Howard is a big sack of crap. I don't know why Australians accept him, he gets like 80% of the votes when he's admitted to lying (children over board anyone?), what do Australia voters go "Hey yeah he's good at lying, lets pick him!"
Armatea
22-06-2005, 08:13
I have no qualms about how they kill it or how much pain they cause it. Look at the way veal is prepared. As long as it tastes good I don't care how they treat it.

My only problem is hunting the specis to extinction. If there is an even remote chance that the species will vanish if they don't stop then they should be penalized.
Daistallia 2104
22-06-2005, 08:14
Considering the prevalence of Buddhism in their society, they generally are very good to animals.

Mmmm.... I think the large number of dogs kept as "pets" here might disagree. Overall, I'd have to say that animals are treated quite poorly here in my experience. It's quite common to see even a large dog confined to a small space with little shelter from the elements.

However, they have been whaling for centuries. it’s a tradition for them. A tradition, I guess, they feel they are to good to give up, considering Europe and Northern North America have ended their whaling.

Historically, there has been very little whaling in Japan, and that was small scale local coastal whaling practiced by a very small number of isolated communities. Large scale pelagic whaling was introduced in the early years of the 20th century. Whale meat has never been all that popular. Even during the dark days of the post-war recovery, it was primarily utilized as a cheap meat for school lunches. The industry today is maintained largely because of it's profitable conections in the halls of government.
Texpunditistan
22-06-2005, 08:15
Wow. Three pages in and nobody's tried pinning the whaling industry on the US somehow. I'm impressed.

:p
Somewhere
22-06-2005, 08:15
I'm in favour of allowing commercial whaling when the numbers allow sustainable hunting. At the moment I don't think they do so I think commercial whaling would be a mistake. The trouble is, the anti-whaling lobby is likely to manipulate the endangerment argument even when they're not endangered, because of their belief that some animals shouild be protected more than others. The IWC should be careful not to let emotion interfere with the whaling debate.
New Fuglies
22-06-2005, 08:16
Wow. Three pages in and nobody's tried pinning the whaling industry on the US somehow. I'm impressed.

:p

I'm trying. :p
Glinde Nessroe
22-06-2005, 08:16
I have no qualms about how they kill it or how much pain they cause it. Look at the way veal is prepared. As long as it tastes good I don't care how they treat it.

My only problem is hunting the specis to extinction. If there is an even remote chance that the species will vanish if they don't stop then they should be penalized.

Apparently it's not meant to be a very pleasurable dish, eaten mostly just because it's whale and up market. Yet why the pain factor doesn't mean anything to you, I don't know. As for veal...ick.
Coquetvia
22-06-2005, 08:18
You've just described every other nation on the planet, not just Japan.

BTW, Australia could stop Japan's whaling ambitions, it would just have to close its ports to Japan's fleet. I would be far too expensive to stock for a round trip for whaling without a stop over to refuling and supplies in Austrialia. Guess what PM Howard won't do however?


That would be the next step in an elevation of this incident. I would agree with you that that won't happen, but I would suggest not for the reasons you think.

Australia was one of 29 nations that yesterday denied Japan access to the Pacific for commercial whaling fleets. Japan was one of the 23 nations that tried unsuccessfully to allow Japan to commercially whale again.

The vote on the increase in 'scientific' whaling numbers would be expected by many in the Australian government and community to go the same way.

Therefore, there will be no need to close any ports. Whilst it is suspected that there is more to the 'scientific' whaling than meets the eye, it can't be satisfactorily proved to the IWC. So blocking ports would make no sense.

Plus, I'm sure Japan could suitable ports in it's Pacific "Aid for Whales Program" nations anyway if it wanted to.
Coquetvia
22-06-2005, 08:20
Yeah John Howard is a big sack of crap. I don't know why Australians accept him, he gets like 80% of the votes when he's admitted to lying (children over board anyone?), what do Australia voters go "Hey yeah he's good at lying, lets pick him!"

It probably has more to do with delivering Australia a stable economy over the last 10 years, especially during the Asian economic downturn.
NERVUN
22-06-2005, 08:25
Therefore, there will be no need to close any ports. Whilst it is suspected that there is more to the 'scientific' whaling than meets the eye, it can't be satisfactorily proved to the IWC. So blocking ports would make no sense.
Twice a week in the letter's section of the Japan Times, there's at least one pissed off Aussie complaining about this issue and a few threats that is Japan comes anywhere near Australia's waters, they will be met in force.
Undelia
22-06-2005, 08:25
It's quite common to see even a large dog confined to a small space with little shelter from the elements.

Oh, now I’m sad. :(

Historically, there has been very little whaling in Japan, and that was small scale local coastal whaling practiced by a very small number of isolated communities. Large scale pelagic whaling was introduced in the early years of the 20th century. Whale meat has never been all that popular. Even during the dark days of the post-war recovery, it was primarily utilized as a cheap meat for school lunches. The industry today is maintained largely because of it's profitable conections in the halls of government.

Well, I guess this holds true to the whole “everything goes back to economics” thing. Anyhoo, thanks for clearing up my misconceptions. :)
Coquetvia
22-06-2005, 08:31
Twice a week in the letter's section of the Japan Times, there's at least one pissed off Aussie complaining about this issue and a few threats that is Japan comes anywhere near Australia's waters, they will be met in force.

Oh come on - a few pissed off Australian nationalists are threatening Japan. "Japan should be scared" he said sarcastically.

There are more Australian citizens writing angry letters about something or other in our own newspapers I can assure you.

The Australian Government is not about to go to war with Japan over whaling. The Australian Government would not try and block Japanese fishing vessels from Australian waters - at least not without a UN mandate or something similar.

A few pissed off Australians is hardly anything new - we get pissed off all the time. Then we go have a beer.

Rest assured, Japan would not be met with force just because we disagree about whaling.
NERVUN
22-06-2005, 08:39
Oh come on - a few pissed off Australian nationalists are threatening Japan. "Japan should be scared" he said sarcastically.

There are more Australian citizens writing angry letters about something or other in our own newspapers I can assure you.

The Australian Government is not about to go to war with Japan over whaling. The Australian Government would not try and block Japanese fishing vessels from Australian waters - at least not without a UN mandate or something similar.

A few pissed off Australians is hardly anything new - we get pissed off all the time. Then we go have a beer.

Rest assured, Japan would not be met with force just because we disagree about whaling.
I never said Japan was scared or otherwise, however if Australians are really upset about this, they could bring pressure to bear in their own goverment about this and stop it.
The Nexire Republic
22-06-2005, 08:43
Maybe its because Japan is small and needs to farm from the sea, because they can't have a large scale domestic animal farming industry in a country where they are running out land for humans. Real estate is too expensive.

Whales, meh.
Armatea
22-06-2005, 08:44
Yet why the pain factor doesn't mean anything to you, I don't know. As for veal...ick.

Food is food. I hate this new age, PETA sponsored, liberal bullshit about ethical treatment for something that will end up being digested.

The veal is made like this: a baby calf is placed in a box for weeks so it's muscles atrophy and the meat kept nice and tender - then it is killed and shipped off to your local supermarket.

I don't care how "tortured" it is in that crate. It tastes good. It was bread so I can eat it. It wouldn't exist if it's purpose wasn't to become a meal, therefore, any outcries about animal abuse are irrelavent.
Coquetvia
22-06-2005, 08:48
I never said Japan was scared or otherwise, however if Australians are really upset about this, they could bring pressure to bear in their own goverment about this and stop it.

I think it would be fairly clear after an examination of the Australian media that pressure has been brought to bear on the Australian Government to stop it.

The thing is, they are stopping it. The votes at the IWC are stopping it. Japan lost the commercial vote. They will probably lose the 'scientific' increase vote. Therefore, case closed. Or is it...

This brings me back to the problem about Japan that I first mentioned. As mentioned in this article Back off the Whales (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15693601-2,00.html) , Japan may go ahead and ignore the IWC and go whaling anyway . In direct contradiction to the body it is signed up for, the IWC.

And all of the other nations in the IWC that oppose whaling. If Japan continues along that path, it will lower itself in the estimation of other nations that, under normal circumstances, regard it very highly and have good diplomatic and trade relations with. These nations include Australia and the US, among many others.

If Japan wishes to be part of the IWC, they should stick by it's rules.
Undelia
22-06-2005, 08:50
Maybe its because Japan is small and needs to farm from the sea, because they can't have a large scale domestic animal farming industry in a country where they are running out land for humans. Real estate is too expensive.

Whaling does not, and can not produce enough food to feed the population.

Food is food. I hate this new age, PETA sponsored, liberal bullshit about ethical treatment for something that will end up being digested.

I’m not a liberal. Please, forgive me for caring about life. :rolleyes:


The veal is made like this: a baby calf is placed in a box for weeks so it's muscles atrophy and the meat kept nice and tender - then it is killed and shipped off to your local supermarket.

Am I the only one that finds this abhorrent?
Armatea
22-06-2005, 08:54
I’m not a liberal. Please, forgive me for caring about life.

Your stance seems very liberal. I care enough to not want to see the species braught to extinction. Only then is it a problem for me. Otherwise, I don't care how my food is being treated. There is no logic in it.

Am I the only one that find this abhorrent?

I hope so.
Lashie
22-06-2005, 09:04
Ok i know you're all going to hate me for this post, but honestly the biggest difference i can see between whales and cows is that there are less of them. Admittedly, this causes extinction problems etc for the whales, but why should killing one whale be any worse than killing one cow... they're still animals...

btw, i don't agree with Japan's idea's (in general, not each specific person) but i don't think we should be so quick to judge them

*runs off before anyone notices she posted this*
Toponymia
22-06-2005, 09:12
Humans have been eating meat for a long, long time. We also have used furs, leather, bones, tendons, etc. from animals for a long, long time. Has it ever been ethically wrong to do that?

Is it less ethical to kill wild whales for food than it is to kill wild deer, turkeys, squirrels, trout, bass, tuna, and all the other wild land and sea animals that are killed so commonly for sport?

Would Japan's (or anyone else's) whaling be "disgusting" if, say, they shot the whale with a tranquilizer dart before harpooning it? How about if they captured the whale and knocked it over the head, the way cattle are killed?

If we're going to hunt and kill animals, does it really matter how it's done? With all the problems that exist in this world (illiteracy, land mines, child abuse, to name a few), is it really productive to worry about a being that we're going to kill anyway suffering for a little while before it dies?

The whales, sentient or not, no matter how they are killed, wind up just as dead. Plenty of humans, whom we know are sentient, suffer throughout their lives, and very little is done to ease much of this suffering. Some people actively cause others to suffer, and I have no problem calling those people evil. But I have a hard time tagging anyone as "evil" for killing whales.
Quorm
22-06-2005, 09:18
Am I the only one that finds this abhorrent?
Nope, you're not.

I'm certainly no vegetarian, but I draw the line at veal. I have no problem with eating animals - I think some people set too much value on life (animal or human if it comes to that). On the other hand, I think that quality of life lived is very important (again for humans or animals), so I think that the animals we're going to eat should be treated reasonably humanely. There's no reason a cow can't lead a normal and fairly pleasant cow life before appearing in my cheeseburger. It's true that the cow's life is cut a little short, but then most cows wouldn't live at all if we didn't want to eat them.

Whaling just seems stupid to me because whales are such long lived, slow growing animals that there's really almost no hope of sustainable whaling on any sort of global scale at all.

Besides, whales are such intelligent animals that the sort of painful slow death that seems inevitable in whaling strikes me as pretty inhumane. If whaling could be managed sustainably and the whales could be killed quickly, then I would approve of whaling, but that just isn't the case.
Dragons Bay
22-06-2005, 09:24
Waahh...hey...Inuit eat seals. Doesn't THAT disgust anybody? It's somebody else's food culture. Don't be a big head and respect that. If the Japanese favour whale meat sushi, so be it!

Yes, there are concerns about excessive whaling, so everybody should sit down and talk over it. There are also concerns about excessive every-other-kind-of-exploiting. We could focus on that too.
Quorm
22-06-2005, 09:25
Ok i know you're all going to hate me for this post, but honestly the biggest difference i can see between whales and cows is that there are less of them. Admittedly, this causes extinction problems etc for the whales, but why should killing one whale be any worse than killing one cow... they're still animals...

btw, i don't agree with Japan's idea's (in general, not each specific person) but i don't think we should be so quick to judge them

*runs off before anyone notices she posted this*
I missed your post while i was writing mine, so i'll reply now :). I suppose there are two main differences between killing a whale and killing a cow. First, we generally kill cows quite quickly and relatively painlessly, whale's get stuck with multiple spears until they collapse in pain from blood loss and can no longer struggle (actually, we do this to bulls too in bull fighting, but I don't approve of that either). So the death of the whale is hugely more painful. Secondly, the whale is much more intelligent than the cow, and so likely to be more like us - I think that should count for something.

Besides, you really can't ignore the fact that whaling just isn't sustainable on a global scale. That means that if we want to have whales around in 100 years, we really can't afford to allow whaling at all.
Asengard
22-06-2005, 09:37
Apparently, whaling was actively encouraged by the US when they occupied Japan after WWII. Before then it wasn't such a major activity, since then it's become traditional.
Peanut Heads
22-06-2005, 09:38
Cow's are numerous, you dont see 500 whales in a paddock now do you? Japan among others are hunting whales for pure economic value, you cannot put cows and whales in the same group.

Cows are a staple food ever since the first farmers walked this earth, while whales are nothing more than cash crops, this is just another case of corporate greed.
Coquetvia
22-06-2005, 09:41
As has been stated in the above few posts, there is no future in whale hunting, due to the insustainable nature of whales (ie. their long lifespan, etc.)

I have to imagine that the 440 whales brought in for 'scientific research' can't be helping whales repopulate the oceans either.

As I have stated on numerous occasions above, Japan should follow the rules of whaling, as set down by the IWC. this body was set up to preserve the whales' rapidly dwindling numbers. So far, it appears to have worked - but only because it's members are following the rules. The rules strictly prohibit commercial whaling, and that is the way it should stay.

Japan will only do itself harm in the long run amongst the international community if it goes against the IWC.

As for whaling itself, it is theoretically acceptable on four conditions.

1) Whales are killed humanely, and all parts of the whale are used.

2) A sustainable population of whales must be developed if they are to be killed on a regular basis.

3) Whales as a whole, or any particular species of whale, are never to be hunted to extinction

4) The IWC member nations approve the huntings of whales.

We know that Number 1 isn't happening.
Number 2 is a long way off, if it occurs at all.
Number 3 is something I think everyone can agree on.
Number 4 is unlikely to happen at any stage in the near future (at least until something resembling Number 2 occurs anyway).
Kibolonia
22-06-2005, 10:12
What makes Japan worse than Norway for example, or perhaps the several native North American tribes who have hunted whales for thousands of years?
At least the North American tribes do go out in little boats. Sadly they use a sniper rifle, I think they should use spears, and have to row. They don't drive them into shore and kill them en mass. But the point is, it's not an industrial or economic practice for them. It's wholly cultural. And in that sense, preserving that is something *more* than making a buck out of a niche market.
Battery Charger
22-06-2005, 10:32
I'm trying. :pConsider that without the US, anybody could boss Japan around, because they don't really have a military. Okay, maybe not anybody, but Japan is kind of like a brat kid that nobody will mess with because they don't want to fight his big brother.
Anarchic Conceptions
22-06-2005, 10:45
I don't care how "tortured" it is in that crate. It tastes good. It was bread so I can eat it. It wouldn't exist if it's purpose wasn't to become a meal, therefore, any outcries about animal abuse are irrelavent.

No one is debating that. Some people just prefer their meat a bit older and untortured.

If only Swift had thought of what you wrote. A Modest Proposal would probably be taken seriously.

At least the North American tribes do go out in little boats. Sadly they use a sniper rifle, I think they should use spears, and have to row. They don't drive them into shore and kill them en mass. But the point is, it's not an industrial or economic practice for them. It's wholly cultural. And in that sense, preserving that is something *more* than making a buck out of a niche market.

So it becomes wrong once money is introduced?

I'm no capitalist. But this seems strange :confused:
Anarchic Conceptions
22-06-2005, 10:54
Cows are a staple food ever since the first farmers walked this earth, while whales are nothing more than cash crops, this is just another case of corporate greed.

I don't get it. If something is ethically wrong, it is ethically wrong with or without money being involved right?

If you want to claim corporate greed is a bad thing, fine. And I'll probably even agree with you. But don't claim things done in the interests of corporate greed are bad automatically, since that makes a whole host of things automatically bad.

:)
Undelia
22-06-2005, 11:50
No one is debating that. Some people just prefer their meat a bit older and untortured.

Or not at all.

I don't get it. If something is ethically wrong, it is ethically wrong with or without money being involved right?

Right, and there is A LOT of money in cattle, so his argument is essentially flawed.
Helioterra
22-06-2005, 12:13
Nope, you're not.

I'm certainly no vegetarian, but I draw the line at veal. I have no problem with eating animals - I think some people set too much value on life (animal or human if it comes to that). On the other hand, I think that quality of life lived is very important (again for humans or animals), so I think that the animals we're going to eat should be treated reasonably humanely. There's no reason a cow can't lead a normal and fairly pleasant cow life before appearing in my cheeseburger.
And you think that cows actually have "normal" lives in gigantic farms. Many of them never see the daylight. They have few squaremeters were they spend their entire lives. Do you eat poultry? Those calves are fortunate compared to chickens. You have to buy organic if you want to eat meat that's produced even in slightly humane way.
Undelia
22-06-2005, 12:18
And you think that cows actually have "normal" lives in gigantic farms. Many of them never see the daylight. They have few squaremeters were they spend their entire lives. Do you eat poultry? Those calves are fortunate compared to chickens. You have to buy organic if you want to eat meat that's produced even in slightly humane way.

*Applauds*
Well said. :D
Daistallia 2104
22-06-2005, 12:28
Consider that without the US, anybody could boss Japan around, because they don't really have a military. Okay, maybe not anybody, but Japan is kind of like a brat kid that nobody will mess with because they don't want to fight his big brother.

Actually Japan has a small but well trained and equiped military. In fact, the Japanese Naval Self Defense Forces are second only to India and China in Asia.
[NS]Mimz
22-06-2005, 12:29
hurting animals is cruel why do you think we have veg and fruit?

mimz
Anarchic Conceptions
22-06-2005, 12:32
Mimz']hurting animals is cruel why do you think we have veg and fruit?


So we can be cruel to veg and fruit?
Gataway_Driver
22-06-2005, 12:33
What makes eating whale any worse than eating pork?

A) the price
B) The taste, so much better
Daistallia 2104
22-06-2005, 15:57
A) the price
B) The taste, so much better

Having actually eaten whale (and quite possibly I am the only one on the thread who has), I can tell you:
Whale is not cheap here now.
I didn't find it particularly tasty.

Additionally, I understand that whales are more tolerant of high concentrations of mercury - to such a degree that eating it is risking neurological damage.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-05/acs-mip051903.php
Swimmingpool
22-06-2005, 23:57
Down with whaling!

Whaling sucks. Why Japan of all countries?

They are th eonly country with a significant demand for whale meat. Norway allows whaling too and sells all of its whale meat to the Japanese.
Glinde Nessroe
23-06-2005, 00:17
Waahh...hey...Inuit eat seals. Doesn't THAT disgust anybody? It's somebody else's food culture. Don't be a big head and respect that. If the Japanese favour whale meat sushi, so be it!

Yes, there are concerns about excessive whaling, so everybody should sit down and talk over it. There are also concerns about excessive every-other-kind-of-exploiting. We could focus on that too.

In some cultures it has become custom to throw acid in a woman's face, so be it?
31
23-06-2005, 00:23
umm, no more disgusted than I am by Canada allowing baby seal hunting. They are animals. We kill and use them. They kill and eat each other on a regular basis. If you do not wish to kill and use a whale then do not do so.
The Japanese hunt Minke (spl?) whales and these whales are nowhere near extinction. They harvest very few of the whale population each year, they are handling the whaling in a smart way and in no way pushing any whales to extinction.
Gataway_Driver
23-06-2005, 00:32
Having actually eaten whale (and quite possibly I am the only one on the thread who has), I can tell you:
Whale is not cheap here now.
I didn't find it particularly tasty.

Additionally, I understand that whales are more tolerant of high concentrations of mercury - to such a degree that eating it is risking neurological damage.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-05/acs-mip051903.php

A)I meant that whale was more expensive

B) there are at least 2 people because I prefer it to pork

I didn't know about the Mercury info Thanks for that
Galahaa
23-06-2005, 00:34
What makes eating whale any worse than eating pork?

well...
mostly the fact that there are quite a few more pigs than there are whales and so whale hunting is economically unsound. also the financial costs of hunting and catching a whale is consdierably higher than breeding a pig, wouldnt you say?

that is all
31
23-06-2005, 00:36
Having actually eaten whale (and quite possibly I am the only one on the thread who has), I can tell you:
Whale is not cheap here now.
I didn't find it particularly tasty.

Additionally, I understand that whales are more tolerant of high concentrations of mercury - to such a degree that eating it is risking neurological damage.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-05/acs-mip051903.php

I've eaten whale so you aren't alone on this thread. It was expensive as hell and not something I would pay that much to eat again. Tasted like fishy beef. 8000 yen for six pieces. Also bought a whale tooth tie clip which all of my students tell me is cute. They carved a smiling, happy whale out of a dead whale's tooth, oh the irony.
Fair Progress
23-06-2005, 00:37
I rate whaling as disgusting as the scale gets, almost as disgusting as the canadian seal slaughter. Just like that. I'm not a vegetarian and I'm quite aware that animals need to be killed in order for humans to eat them. But I'm for doing it in a painless, non-barbaric and sadistic way. Since we can't do that with whales, we better off don't do it at all.
Gataway_Driver
23-06-2005, 00:37
well...
mostly the fact that there are quite a few more pigs than there are whales and so whale hunting is economically unsound. also the financial costs of hunting and catching a whale is consdierably higher than breeding a pig, wouldnt you say?

that is all

hence the higher price?

Economically sound, I prefer this argument than the ethical one
Gataway_Driver
23-06-2005, 00:38
I rate whaling as disgusting as the scale gets, almost as disgusting as the canadian seal slaughter. Just like that. I'm not a vegetarian and I'm quite aware that animals need to be killed in order for humans to eat them. But I'm for doing it in a painless, non-barbaric and sadistic way. Since we can't do that with whales, we better off don't do it at all.

So what meat do you eat then?
Undelia
23-06-2005, 00:38
umm, no more disgusted than I am by Canada allowing baby seal hunting

I won’t buy anything I know was made in Canada because of that crap. Seriously, clubbing baby seals to death by the thousands. That’s just sick.
Gataway_Driver
23-06-2005, 00:40
I won’t buy anything I know was made in Canada because of that crap. Seriously, clubbing baby seals to death by the thousands. That’s just sick.

Ok what about lamb or veal?
31
23-06-2005, 00:41
I won’t buy anything I know was made in Canada because of that crap. Seriously, clubbing baby seals to death by the thousands. That’s just sick.

I read the claims that they used this method because it didn't damage the fur and I thought, WTF? Beating something with a club does no damage? How about one of those humaine killers that they use for horses? Small hole, pretty much instant death, seems that is a bit more humaine and undamaging.
Seagrove
23-06-2005, 00:43
Oh well, I don't fucking care. Run those monsters into extinction, I won't shed a tear. I've long wondered what it'd be like to shoot one with a .50 caliber rifle? :sniper:
Glinde Nessroe
23-06-2005, 00:46
Oh well, I don't fucking care. Run those monsters into extinction, I won't shed a tear. I've long wondered what it'd be like to shoot one with a .50 caliber rifle? :sniper:

Well here's an idea, shoot yourself in the knee cap first, I hear it's the same kind of exhileration!
Fair Progress
23-06-2005, 00:47
So what meat do you eat then?

What I'm saying is: ideally, animals that are put down for human feeding shouldn't be needlessly harmed. Although impossible, that should be the aim. But there's always some stupid redneck that doesn't play by the rules and thinks it's funny to electrocute animals to death.
Seagrove
23-06-2005, 00:49
Well here's an idea, shoot yourself in the knee cap first, I hear it's the same kind of exhileration!

I'll practice on your knee cap first to make sure I don't miss.
Seagrove
23-06-2005, 00:50
What I'm saying is: ideally, animals that are put down for human feeding shouldn't be needlessly harmed. Although impossible, that should be the aim. But there's always some stupid redneck that doesn't play by the rules and thinks it's funny to electrocute animals to death.

Hey now, since when is 'redneck' a demeaning term? I haven't yet said anything serious on these forums, but I actually want to know why people gotta be down on rednecks.
Undelia
23-06-2005, 00:51
Ok what about lamb or veal?

I don’t eat meat, period. I think that modern treatment of livestock is awful. But, I’m going to have to say that the mass slaughter of thousands of wild animals is worse than killing an animal born in captivity, specifically to be eaten.

Well here's an idea, shoot yourself in the knee cap first, I hear it's the same kind of exhileration!

I secound that idea.
Gataway_Driver
23-06-2005, 00:52
What I'm saying is: ideally, animals that are put down for human feeding shouldn't be needlessly harmed. Although impossible, that should be the aim. But there's always some stupid redneck that doesn't play by the rules and thinks it's funny to electrocute animals to death.

I see what your saying and in a perfect world i agree but I'm afraid this is not how it happens, they are given a shitty life and then they die early. Thatb should be the definition of farm animal

At least the whale is free
Gataway_Driver
23-06-2005, 00:53
I don’t eat meat, period. I think that modern treatment of livestock is awful.
But, I’m going to have to say that the mass slaughter of thousands of wild animals is worse than killing an animal born in captivity, specifically to be eaten.
I secound that idea.

Good for you

I'm afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree on your second point though
New Shiron
23-06-2005, 01:26
well...
mostly the fact that there are quite a few more pigs than there are whales and so whale hunting is economically unsound. also the financial costs of hunting and catching a whale is consdierably higher than breeding a pig, wouldnt you say?

that is all


apparently (according the MSN article I read), pork chops, pork ribs, bacon etc are much tastier than whale meat as well.... less fat too

I happen to love pork chops myself
Kevlanakia
23-06-2005, 01:55
Well, I for one think whale meat tastes de-li-cious! Seal is pretty good too, but no way near whale. I suppose it's a matter of taste, really.

That being said, I find it curious that certain people here seem to believe hunting whales with ordinary spears instead of exploding harpoons is somehow nobler or better for the whale. The reason exploding harpoons are used is, after all, because they kill the whale quicker.

Also, there are whales that eat fish and there are whales that eat seals. If one takes a substantial amount of fish out of the ocean, the consequence will be a disproportionately large population of seals and whales compared to the amount of fish available. In other words, starving whales and seals and a hard pressed fish stock. Solution? Harvest of seals and whales. This can take some weight of the fish harvesting, and the situation for all sea creatures that remain will be improved.
The Duplicates
23-06-2005, 01:57
Whale is tasty, it is even tastier on the grill with barbeque sauce, and I see no reason to stop eating whale, I have done so since I was a little child, and my family does, my friends, people in the city I live in, and lots of other people here in Norway.


Whale is an animal. People have killed animals for food for millenia, and just because some people who doesn't know shit about local culture think it's wrong (for some strange reason) everyone else should stop eating whale? True, we must not overharvest the whales, but no "I know better than you" fellow can tell me what I can do and cannot! :headbang:
Transipsheim
23-06-2005, 02:17
Causing the extinction of an entire species is simply wrong. Of course there should be no problem eating whale (or any other "endangered" animal) as long as their survivial is assured. Overharvesting doesn't belong to "local culture". Local culture came from a time when it was impossible to overharvest anything at all, simply because hunting whales before the advent of modern spear guns mounted on ships was a pain in the arse.

It has nothing to do with any "I know better than you" fellows telling you what to do and what not to do, it's simply common sense to not force an animal into extinction because quite plainly, you'd lose that aspect of your culture if you do so. So the way I see it, you've got two options, you keep the increase in hunting up and follow Japan's example and you'll lose whales within the next ten years or you cut back, show some compromises in your culture, but continue to have it for the next several hundred years.
Kevlanakia
23-06-2005, 02:37
Causing the extinction of an entire species is simply wrong. Of course there should be no problem eating whale (or any other "endangered" animal) as long as their survivial is assured. Overharvesting doesn't belong to "local culture". Local culture came from a time when it was impossible to overharvest anything at all, simply because hunting whales before the advent of modern spear guns mounted on ships was a pain in the arse.

It has nothing to do with any "I know better than you" fellows telling you what to do and what not to do, it's simply common sense to not force an animal into extinction because quite plainly, you'd lose that aspect of your culture if you do so. So the way I see it, you've got two options, you keep the increase in hunting up and follow Japan's example and you'll lose whales within the next ten years or you cut back, show some compromises in your culture, but continue to have it for the next several hundred years.

Good point. Nobody wins if the whales are driven to extinction. Except people who hate whales. Today, only one whale species is hunted by Norway: The minke whale (or so the dictionary translates it to. Balaenoptera acutorostrata, anyway.) The quota is about 700 a year out of a stock of some 184 000 animals. So about 0,4%. The number of whales is regularily monitored.

It's species of fish one needs to worry about being driven to extinction...
New Shiron
23-06-2005, 02:42
Also, there are whales that eat fish and there are whales that eat seals. If one takes a substantial amount of fish out of the ocean, the consequence will be a disproportionately large population of seals and whales compared to the amount of fish available. In other words, starving whales and seals and a hard pressed fish stock. Solution? Harvest of seals and whales. This can take some weight of the fish harvesting, and the situation for all sea creatures that remain will be improved.

the trouble with that theory is that the whale population is far, far less than it was in th 18th Century (before commercial whaling took off) and the fish population is also far, far less than it was then as well.

We (as in us humans) overfished severely, and also killed most of the whales... so your arguement that the whales ever severely impacted the fish population lacks factual basis
Kevlanakia
23-06-2005, 02:48
the trouble with that theory is that the whale population is far, far less than it was in th 18th Century (before commercial whaling took off) and the fish population is also far, far less than it was then as well.

We (as in us humans) overfished severely, and also killed most of the whales... so your arguement that the whales ever severely impacted the fish population lacks factual basis

Perhaps, but do you deny that more whales would mean increased pressure on fish stocks or that one whale can make up for many fish in terms of food provided?
Undelia
23-06-2005, 02:58
It's species of fish one needs to worry about being driven to extinction...

Whales are mammals. They give live birth, nurse their young and breath with lungs, not gills.

Today, only one whale species is hunted by Norway

It’s a shame that Scandinavians, who are supposed to be “progressive”, do not follow what I consider one of the few valid tenants of that philosophy.
Kevlanakia
23-06-2005, 03:13
Whales are mammals. They give live birth, nurse their young and breath with lungs, not gills.

So do pigs. They're delicious. However, pigs are, just like aforementioned species of whales, not in any immediate risk of extinction. That's why fishing and the regulation of it is a more pressing issue. Also, remember that whales eat fish as well. Assume the fish becomes extinct... You do realize that when I talk about fish, I mean fish and not whales, right?


Today, only one whale species is hunted by Norway
It’s a shame that Scandinavians, who are supposed to be “progressive”, do not follow what I consider one of the few valid tenants of that philosophy.

You've lost me. One of the few valid tenants of... Hunting only one whale species?
Armatea
23-06-2005, 04:16
First of all, fuck the vegan assholes. Now that that's out of the way, moving on...

What I'm saying is: ideally, animals that are put down for human feeding shouldn't be needlessly harmed. Although impossible, that should be the aim. But there's always some stupid redneck that doesn't play by the rules and thinks it's funny to electrocute animals to death.

I see no reason for this to be the aim. It's going to end up dead no matter what. How it gets to that state is irrelavent. There is no logic in the argument regarding why these animals should be treated "ethically". BTW, ethicallly is a highly subjective term which causes problems in and of itself.

There are certain extreme elements in society who want veal banned. Their sole argument is "it's horrible and wrong and immoral" - which is about the most retarded thing ever. The whale suffers for what? 30 minutes? an hour? So what?

Why is the animal's suffering so wrong? Their death serves a purposes - food consumption.
Undelia
23-06-2005, 04:34
So do pigs. They're delicious. However, pigs are, just like aforementioned species of whales, not in any immediate risk of extinction. That's why fishing and the regulation of it is a more pressing issue. Also, remember that whales eat fish as well. Assume the fish becomes extinct....

Certain species of whales ARE endangered of becoming extinct if hunting continues. Whales don’t eat enough fish to drive them to extinction. The minke whale is baleen. In the North Pacific (where Japan is) it only eats krill and sand lice. The ones in the Antarctic eat only krill. The ones in the North Atlantic eat sand lance, sand eel, krill, salmon, capelin, mackerel, cod, herring and a number of other fish species, but the whales have such a small birth rate that they can’t threaten the existence of these species, and certainly not as much as people do. Besides, if you are so concerned about fish, stop eating them.

You've lost me. One of the few valid tenants of... Hunting only one whale species?

Sorry, bad wording. Anyway what I was referring to was progressive philosophy. One of the tenants of that is environmentalism . Which, in mild doses, is a very good thing, However, I don’t see how they are following this by continuing to hunt whales.
Daistallia 2104
23-06-2005, 04:35
I stand corrected in my thought that I may have been the only one here to have eaten whale.

The Duplicates and Kevlanakia, did you take a look at the mercury article I posted earlier?

It's species of fish one needs to worry about being driven to extinction... Whales are mammals. They give live birth, nurse their young and breath with lungs, not gills.

You missed his point completely. Whales certainly are mammals. But that does not excuse industrial overfishing that is endangering stocks of salmon, tuna, and other commercially valuable fish.
Khudros
23-06-2005, 04:39
I see no reason for this to be the aim. It's going to end up dead no matter what. How it gets to that state is irrelavent. There is no logic in the argument regarding why these animals should be treated "ethically". BTW, ethically is a highly subjective term which causes problems in and of itself.

I wholeheartedly agree with you! In fact, this can be extended to ethical treatment of humans as well. Our nerve cells are no more advanced than that of a whale. It shoudn't matter if someone is tortured to death with acid baths, if they're prisoners who'd wind up dead anyways. So really all of Stalin's and Saddam's torture chambers weren't anything special.
New Shiron
23-06-2005, 05:22
Perhaps, but do you deny that more whales would mean increased pressure on fish stocks or that one whale can make up for many fish in terms of food provided?

since an average fishing trawler will catch several tons of fish in one trip, while the toothed whales that eat fish will eat that much in a year, and the trawler will make an average of 5 -6 trips a season... no, I am not too concerned about the whales over predating the fish population as there are a lot more fishing trawlers in the world than toothed whales that eat fish.

Most of the toothed whales eat either seals (Orcas) or squid (Cachelot)..the seal populations that have been driven to extinction have always had that unhappy fate because of overhunting by us. Same with the Sea Otters.

Most of the larger whales are actually baleen whales, which eat krill, a sea creature not used for commercial purposes.
New Shiron
23-06-2005, 05:25
You missed his point completely. Whales certainly are mammals. But that does not excuse industrial overfishing that is endangering stocks of salmon, tuna, and other commercially valuable fish.

I agree with you completely. Once upon a time in California we had a huge anchovy industry, and a huge salmon industry. Overfishing wiped them both out. In Texas, when I was a kid, the shrimping industry easily supported families for a couple of generations. Now overfishing has made it so bad that most shrimpers can't make a living and they had to quit.

The list of that kind of thing goes on and on.
Armatea
23-06-2005, 05:27
I wholeheartedly agree with you! In fact, this can be extended to ethical treatment of humans as well. Our nerve cells are no more advanced than that of a whale. It shoudn't matter if someone is tortured to death with acid baths, if they're prisoners who'd wind up dead anyways. So really all of Stalin's and Saddam's torture chambers weren't anything special.

Way to use logic to defend your position. :rolleyes: :headbang:
Glinde Nessroe
23-06-2005, 11:42
First of all, fuck the vegan assholes. Now that that's out of the way, moving on...



I see no reason for this to be the aim. It's going to end up dead no matter what. How it gets to that state is irrelavent. There is no logic in the argument regarding why these animals should be treated "ethically". BTW, ethicallly is a highly subjective term which causes problems in and of itself.

There are certain extreme elements in society who want veal banned. Their sole argument is "it's horrible and wrong and immoral" - which is about the most retarded thing ever. The whale suffers for what? 30 minutes? an hour? So what?

Why is the animal's suffering so wrong? Their death serves a purposes - food consumption.

First of all I'd like to say HA Khudros shut you down big time...to extend on his post.

So like if I took your dog, slowly ripped out it's nails and burnt its arms and legs off and hung it from the ceiling to bleed it dry...it's cool right...just as long as I eat it.
Kevlanakia
23-06-2005, 14:58
since an average fishing trawler will catch several tons of fish in one trip, while the toothed whales that eat fish will eat that much in a year, and the trawler will make an average of 5 -6 trips a season... no, I am not too concerned about the whales over predating the fish population as there are a lot more fishing trawlers in the world than toothed whales that eat fish.

Most of the toothed whales eat either seals (Orcas) or squid (Cachelot)..the seal populations that have been driven to extinction have always had that unhappy fate because of overhunting by us. Same with the Sea Otters.

Most of the larger whales are actually baleen whales, which eat krill, a sea creature not used for commercial purposes.

It seems we agree on that overfishing is a more serious problem than overwhaling, then. And as I said, the only whale species still being hunted (for lack of a better word) by Norway is the minke whale, a baleen whale which does have fish as a large portion of its diet (yeah, I know one wouldn't expect them to, but there you are,) and which is not in any immediate danger of extinction.
Sinuhue
23-06-2005, 15:35
] wouldn't want to support such an evil whale eating nation.


I take it you don't like Canada either then?
Sinuhue
23-06-2005, 15:36
I stand corrected in my thought that I may have been the only one here to have eaten whale.


*raises hand*
So have I. Muktuk. Raw whale blubber. Not great.
Undelia
23-06-2005, 15:47
It seems we agree on that overfishing is a more serious problem than overwhaling, then. And as I said, the only whale species still being hunted (for lack of a better word) by Norway is the minke whale, a baleen whale which does have fish as a large portion of its diet (yeah, I know one wouldn't expect them to, but there you are,) and which is not in any immediate danger of extinction.

The fish populations are not threatened by whales. Humans are a bigger cause of overfishing than whales, I guarantee it.
Who cares if it is or isn't near extinction? You are supporting the killing of an intelligent animal to satisfy your own, or someone else's, base sense of taste. Nice. :rolleyes:
Kevlanakia
23-06-2005, 16:27
The fish populations are not threatened by whales. Humans are a bigger cause of overfishing than whales, I guarantee it.
Who cares if it is or isn't near extinction? You are supporting the killing of an intelligent animal to satisfy your own, or someone else's, base sense of taste. Nice. :rolleyes:


I am well aware that humans take a far greater toll on fish populations than whales, thank you. And yes, I am supporting the killing of whales to satisfy my own and someone else's base sense of taste. I find it hypocritical to say that certain species of animals are more valuable than others and therefore shouldn't be eaten. Especially since whaling will get you alot more food per life taken than pig farming will.
Xanaz
23-06-2005, 16:33
Wow. Three pages in and nobody's tried pinning the whaling industry on the US somehow. I'm impressed.

:p

It's all Bush's fault and everyone knows it. :D

Seriously though, what about those Canadians and baby seal hunts?
Sinuhue
23-06-2005, 16:38
It's all Bush's fault and everyone knows it. :D

Seriously though, what about those Canadians and baby seal hunts?
What about them?
Undelia
23-06-2005, 16:46
I find it hypocritical to say that certain species of animals are more valuable than others and therefore shouldn't be eaten

So do I. That is why I am a vegetarian.

Seriously though, what about those Canadians and baby seal hunts?

Even more contemptible, considering the greater loss of life, and the fact that it takes a pretty sadistic monster to beat a baby seal to death.
Xanaz
23-06-2005, 16:46
What about them?

Well from what I've seen on the news it's pretty fucking cruel.
Sinuhue
23-06-2005, 16:50
Well from what I've seen on the news it's pretty fucking cruel.
Does that depend on who is doing it and for what purposes?

There are two types of seal hunters in Canada. One, are the Inuit who rely on the seal as a food source, and still clothe themselves in seal fur. The other group are the commercial hunters (some of whom, regretably are also native) who do it purely for the skin.
Kevlanakia
23-06-2005, 16:52
So do I. That is why I am a vegetarian.

Great. You're a vegetarian, I'm for eating meat. Therefore, we both won this argument :)
Xanaz
23-06-2005, 16:53
Does that depend on who is doing it and for what purposes?

There are two types of seal hunters in Canada. One, are the Inuit who rely on the seal as a food source, and still clothe themselves in seal fur. The other group are the commercial hunters (some of whom, regretably are also native) who do it purely for the skin.

Really? Because the reason they always give on the news is over population. That some how the seals are eating all the fish. So then begs the question, does that mean if I catch someone eating fish do I get to club them to death over the head and their babies too?
Sinuhue
23-06-2005, 16:53
Even more contemptible, considering the greater loss of life, and the fact that it takes a pretty sadistic monster to beat a baby seal to death.
Or brain a cow? Or chop of a chicken's head? Or slaughter animals in the myriad different ways that we do in order to feed ourselves?

I think sport hunting is reprehensible. I think over production of livestock to feed our ever expanding 'need' for meat is disgusting. And yet, I myself hunt in order to supplement our diet. I rely on that meat, and up north, people REALLY rely on that meat. I truly think, if you can't stomach killing and butchering an animal, you shouldn't be eating meat. (Yes, I caught that you were vegetarian...good on you)
New Shiron
23-06-2005, 16:55
those of you who are vegatarians are extremely unlikely to convert those of us who are omnivores. Personally, I figure if God/Natural Selection (take your pick) had meant humans eat only plant material we would have more molars, fewer canines, and a second stomach. But thats just my opinion.

The point of this thread is that a lot of us feel whaling is generally a bad idea, or not (depending on your point of view). Its not a thread on the ethics of animal testing, nor is it about abortion in any way, or torture in Iraq or what have you. Lots of other threads for those issues.

Whales and other sea mammals have enough problems dealing with pollution, sonar interference, substantially greater ocean noise than ever before and for that matter small boats without adding hunting to the mix.

Its time for whaling to stop. It has little economic value, its mostly for luxury food that is easily replaced by common domestic animal food products, and for that matter, as was pointed out, the blubber has a tendency to store up harmful metals like mercury so isn't really good for you either. The only exception I can live with is the practice of hunting carried out by the Inuit and others but that should have very sharp restrictions on it.
Xanaz
23-06-2005, 16:58
Perhaps for some of us it's not that we are against people eating meat. Maybe it's more so the fucking cruel way the innocent animals are killed.
Sinuhue
23-06-2005, 16:59
Really? Because the reason they always give on the news is over population. That some how the seals are eating all the fish. So then begs the question, does that mean if I catch someone eating fish do I get to club them to death over the head and their babies too?
The reason who gives? What you see on the news is generally the commercial hunters bitching about quotas. But they get somehow mixed in with the traditional hunters as though they are all the same.

The problem is not that the seals overfish (well, it is, but indirectly), but rather that they are in competition with humans for food. WE have overfished to the point where the stocks have become so depleted, they are in a very fragile state. Rather than deal with our own behaviours, we target competing predators. Much like how we deal with bears, or deer, or elk, or rabbits, or any animal that we have driven out with our farms and cities...they are not overpopulated...they simply don't have any room any more.

The sad thing is in traditional hunting...because of the currents, pollutants get concentrated in the Arctic Ocean, and seals and whales are some of the most polluted animals out there. So, the people who did not cause the pollution, who do not slaughter randomly, and who rely on the meat end up paying the price in two ways...they themselves are being poisoned, and being told they are bad for killing these mammals.
Xanaz
23-06-2005, 17:03
The sad thing is in traditional hunting...because of the currents, pollutants get concentrated in the Arctic Ocean, and seals and whales are some of the most polluted animals out there. So, the people who did not cause the pollution, who do not slaughter randomly, and who rely on the meat end up paying the price in two ways...they themselves are being poisoned, and being told they are bad for killing these mammals.

Okay, but couldn't they find a more humane way to kill these animals if they must? I mean being clubbed to death while alive, man oh man, there has got to be a better way.
Armatea
23-06-2005, 17:11
First of all I'd like to say HA Khudros shut you down big time...to extend on his post.

So like if I took your dog, slowly ripped out it's nails and burnt its arms and legs off and hung it from the ceiling to bleed it dry...it's cool right...just as long as I eat it.

Yeah dude... he totaly showed me up by crying about his food... :rolleyes:

Yes... it's cool as long as you eat it. My attitude might seem "cold" and "cruel" and some of you might not be able to grasp it but once again, the creature goes from point A to point Z. A is being alive while point Z is dinner. Who cares if it stops at B and C to get its arms ripped out or not... it will still reach point Z.

Now, there is usually some purpose for the way a certain animal is treated. If you want to rip its arms out because you are a sadist then whatever. I won't cry about it nor will I complain.
New Shiron
23-06-2005, 17:19
Okay, but couldn't they find a more humane way to kill these animals if they must? I mean being clubbed to death while alive, man oh man, there has got to be a better way.

Killing an animal is by definition inflicting trauma on it, and thats not pretty. But a blow to the head will usually kill a baby seal outright. Hunters always go for the quick kill, its more efficient. Killing wild animals using more humane methods (and what would you suggest exactly?) isn't really an option for practical reasons.

Traditional hunting methods used in whaling, the harpoon being the prime example, do offer the animal a chance to escape, and many do. Thats why more effective methods were developed (harpoons with explosive shells).
Sinuhue
23-06-2005, 17:47
Okay, but couldn't they find a more humane way to kill these animals if they must? I mean being clubbed to death while alive, man oh man, there has got to be a better way.
Here is a good article about Native hunting of seals and the difference between native and commerical hunters:http://www.nativeradio.com/seals/index.cfm


This is a good article about why seal hunting is still so important to Inuit peoples: http://www.native-net.org/archive/nl/9502/0251.html

Inuit hunters do not club seals to death. They use harpoons or rifles. This is a common misconception.

The Inuit are not hunting baby Harp seals, but rather adult Ring seals. They also do not use brutal killing tactics, and are not decimating a species of animal.
Kibolonia
23-06-2005, 21:49
So it becomes wrong once money is introduced?

I'm no capitalist. But this seems strange :confused:
No. It's different. The small selection of native peoples along the pacific are doing it essentially to preserve the anthropalogical information. Not just the fact of it, but all of the information surrounding it. This is something that some groups of people put a premium on, and is incredibly expensive to recover (if at all possible) when it's lost. Then we still have the worth derived from the religious elements of the practice.

There are lots of ways to make money. There are not equivalent means to preserve cultural practices. At this time, industrial economic practices aren't valuable to us, we're surrounded by that kind of thing. One of the few things the world has been able to agree on, is that the economic activity from whale products is so insignificant that we can outlaw it and that warm fuzzy feeling we get from that is worth more. (Despite the fact that pollution, which comes from very significant economic activities, is a far greater threat.)
Anarchic Conceptions
23-06-2005, 22:57
No. It's different. The small selection of native peoples along the pacific are doing it essentially to preserve the anthropalogical information. Not just the fact of it, but all of the information surrounding it. This is something that some groups of people put a premium on, and is incredibly expensive to recover (if at all possible) when it's lost. Then we still have the worth derived from the religious elements of the practice.

So the Aztecs were justified in sacrificing people because it was something they "put a premium on" and that it was essential to "preserve the anthropalogical [sic?] information."

Though out of interest, what is the worth derived from the religious elements of the practise?

There are lots of ways to make money.

Meh. There are only a few different ways to make money, but a lot of variations on the theme.

There are not equivalent means to preserve cultural practices.

What makes cultural practises inherently good?

At this time, industrial economic practices aren't valuable to us, we're surrounded by that kind of thing. One of the few things the world has been able to agree on, is that the economic activity from whale products is so insignificant that we can outlaw it and that warm fuzzy feeling we get from that is worth more. (Despite the fact that pollution, which comes from very significant economic activities, is a far greater threat.)

How are you measuring the value when you say "that warm fuzzy feeling we get from that is worth more?"
Letila
23-06-2005, 23:06
Yes, I actually do have quite a beef with Japan, what with all the rumors I've heard about it (heavy duty racism and sexism?), and such.
Khudros
23-06-2005, 23:28
Way to use logic to defend your position. :rolleyes: :headbang:
First of all I'd like to say HA Khudros shut you down big time...to extend on his post.


Easy there! I was being sarcastic. I'm surprised you guys actually took me seriously, given the ridiculousness of the argument. Have you no faith in the sanity of NSers?

The purpose of my post was to illustrate the shortcomings of Armatea's rationalization. Arguing that it is ok to torture an animal as long as it dies is as heartless as writing off human torture. I applied the same argument as he did, leading him to respond by denouncing the very logical justification he had been using.

:p
North Island
23-06-2005, 23:36
“If we can imagine a horse having two or three explosive spears stuck in its stomach and being made to pull a butcher’s truck through the streets of London while it pours blood into the gutter, we shall have an idea of the method of killing. The gunners themselves admit that if whales could scream, the industry would stop for nobody would be able to stand it.”

Just on a scale of one to ten?

Respect for Japan just goes further downhill...such a beautiful country totally stained by this. I know it's been there for yonks but now they wanna go after hump backs...grrr. Never ever going to Japan, wouldn't want to support such an evil whale eating nation.

A whaling topic....And yes I realise that not all Japanese would support this but the nation has the strongest support for it...scientific research my ass!

EDIT- That's right I generalised, don't forget Norway! They've been outright ignoring the treaty, Japan is just closer to home for me and actually take wahels from Australian Artic waters. So no offence to the non-world killing Japanese citizens.


BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA Thats all I heard.
I am so sick of hearing this crap over and over.
We will hunt whales in our own waters if we want to and we will hunt the for what ever reason we want to.
Also...Do you have any idea how few we are hunting? It's not the end of the world or the endo of the whales for that matter.

Do you know how long it took us, the Irish, the Norwegians etc. trying to talk the English into shutting down Sellafield???? Radiation that damages HUMANS???
Khudros
23-06-2005, 23:52
Yeah dude... he totaly showed me up by crying about his food... :rolleyes:
I did? Sorry but I've never eaten whale before. And I don't remember ever having cried over a meal either.

I do however feel that justifying the torture of a creature by overlooking the fact that it was tortured isn't much of an argument. It simply makes no sense.


A is being alive while point Z is dinner. Who cares if it stops at B and C to get its arms ripped out or not... it will still reach point Z.
Again, that line of reasoning is absurd. You are not just saying that the ends justify the means, you are saying that the ends justify any conceivable mean as well as anything else done that doesn't occlude the desired result. That throws the entire concept of justification out the window.
Kibolonia
24-06-2005, 00:34
So the Aztecs were justified in sacrificing people because it was something they "put a premium on" and that it was essential to "preserve the anthropalogical [sic?] information."
By American standards? No. We should slaughter them steal their gold, forcibly convert a substantial proportion of them to Christianity, destroy their language and traditions, then we should feel bad about it, recruit them into military service, then permit them an all fireworks, tabacco, casinos, religious hallucinogens, and occasional endangered animal sacrifice free-for-all by actually upholding the treaties we so egregiously exploited in the past.

Though out of interest, what is the worth derived from the religious elements of the practise?
As an atheist, I honestly couldn't tell you. But there must be something there, otherwise people wouldn't do it. And in America, there is something of a premium placed on being able to exercise that choice freely.

Meh. There are only a few different ways to make money, but a lot of variations on the theme.
There's something to be said for symantic quibbling.

What makes cultural practises inherently good?
Well, that's an interesting debate. And our collective view of that depends greatly on the viewer, the practice, and it's outcomes. But I'll just assume that we can agree it costs a lot to recover lost information as compared to preserving it cheaply. Certainly many bemoan the homoginzation of global culture, the lost ideas we'll never understand (and which weren't particularly successful, and which we didn't really care a whole lot about at the time). As I said earlier, I think they should have to paddle out in little canoes and do it with spears (like those crazy Japanese log riding bastards would). What seperates Native American hunting of whales and the Japanese hunting of whales, is that in their case, their use of the resource isn't replacible by another resource, and there are cultural consequences in denying them access to it. In the case of the Japanese should things change, its something that can be undone. In the case of the native peoples of the Pacific coast, that's not necessarily true. That irreversability is what makes it appear so much more expensive, particularly when it's part of a religious sacrement. The fact that their ecological footprint is also orders of magnitude lower doesn't hurt their argument either.

How are you measuring the value when you say "that warm fuzzy feeling we get from that is worth more?"
I didn't do the measuring. The governments of the world who agreed to stop whaling (with certain exceptions) did. I just reported the result.
Armatea
24-06-2005, 02:51
I do however feel that justifying the torture of a creature by overlooking the fact that it was tortured isn't much of an argument. It simply makes no sense.

Not so much overlooking it as much as accepting it as a means to an end. I'll go back to the veal example. The reason veal is so expensive is because of the way the calf is treated. The meat is much more tender and just generally tastes better. I see no reason to ban veal because of the way the calf is prepared.

The same goes for whale hunting. If there is a more practical (and cheaper) way then use it. If not than there is no reason to outright ban the industry because the animal suffers more than some deer getting sniped in the head.

Again, that line of reasoning is absurd. You are not just saying that the ends justify the means, you are saying that the ends justify any conceivable mean as well as anything else done that doesn't occlude the desired result. That throws the entire concept of justification out the window.

My example was way out there but it was only to respond to the guy's comments about ripping apart a dog. That being said though, why exactly should an animal that is suffering - provided there is a purpose, be comforted when in the end result it will die - thus accomplishing the purpose it was bred for?
NERVUN
24-06-2005, 03:16
The same goes for whale hunting. If there is a more practical (and cheaper) way then use it. If not than there is no reason to outright ban the industry because the animal suffers more than some deer getting sniped in the head.
That's the point though, the demand for whale products is pretty much non-exsistant. What we once needed whales for has long since been replaced with other materials that are far cheaper to produce, or have been abandoned (like no one uses whale oil lamps anymore; nor, except for some crazy chicks, does anyone wear whalebone corrsets). Japan's industry is purely luxury in status. Japan can argue that before, during, and shortly after the war, the need for proten in the Japanese diet was, and needed to be, statified by whales, but Japan is no longer poor (as it was before the war), isolated (during), or in the process of rebuilding a devistated nation (after). It is afluent and home to the world's second largest ecconomy. And believe you me, I can get beef here at any time, if more expensive than I am used to at home.

There really is no logical reason to continue whaling beyond just want.
Armatea
24-06-2005, 03:27
If the species is endangered then yes, Japan should stop - if Japan's actions will lead to extinction.

However, if Japan's actions won't lead to extinction, then whether it's a luxury industry or not is irrelavent. So is veal. Technically we don't have to eat veal. We can kill cows in a humane way and thus avoid the treatment of the young calfs.
NERVUN
24-06-2005, 03:35
If the species is endangered then yes, Japan should stop - if Japan's actions will lead to extinction.

However, if Japan's actions won't lead to extinction, then whether it's a luxury industry or not is irrelavent. So is veal. Technically we don't have to eat veal. We can kill cows in a humane way and thus avoid the treatment of the young calfs.
They ARE going after endangered species BECAUSE it is a luxury item. Because there is nothing needed from the whale that we cannot reproduce cheaper and whale numbers are so limited, just because there is a market for whale meat in parts of Japan does not mean that they should be hunted.

Japan's idea is that in order to study how many whales there are left, we should kill them to count them, which I am having a hard time following the logic of (not the first time this has happened, there's a lot of stuff in Japan that seems very illogical ;) ).
Greedy Pig
24-06-2005, 04:34
MmMmm.. WHale meat. Yummy. I like a little blubber on the meat. Excellenty. Just put it on the barbie.
Glinde Nessroe
24-06-2005, 07:18
Easy there! I was being sarcastic. I'm surprised you guys actually took me seriously, given the ridiculousness of the argument. Have you no faith in the sanity of NSers?

The purpose of my post was to illustrate the shortcomings of Armatea's rationalization. Arguing that it is ok to torture an animal as long as it dies is as heartless as writing off human torture. I applied the same argument as he did, leading him to respond by denouncing the very logical justification he had been using.

:p

LoL, yes I know, I was apprciating your sarcasm darling lol.

BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA Thats all I heard.
I am so sick of hearing this crap over and over.
We will hunt whales in our own waters if we want to and we will hunt the for what ever reason we want to.
Also...Do you have any idea how few we are hunting? It's not the end of the world or the endo of the whales for that matter.

Do you know how long it took us, the Irish, the Norwegians etc. trying to talk the English into shutting down Sellafield???? Radiation that damages HUMANS???

You are hunting around 440 whales a year all for 'scientific research'. And yes, it will be if Japan is allowed to hunt hump backs. So a big bla bla fucking bla to you, so your saying you've justified yourself because there is something worse. Thats like saying if I punch my baby sister in the face slowly killing her it wouldn't matter as long as I stabbed my mother, killing her more evidently.

If the species is endangered then yes, Japan should stop - if Japan's actions will lead to extinction.

However, if Japan's actions won't lead to extinction, then whether it's a luxury industry or not is irrelavent. So is veal. Technically we don't have to eat veal. We can kill cows in a humane way and thus avoid the treatment of the young calfs.

So your saying we should kill them and worry about it latter, make generations down the line worry about it? Like Iraq and such?
Chewbaccula
24-06-2005, 08:30
Yeah John Howard is a big sack of crap. I don't know why Australians accept him, he gets like 80% of the votes when he's admitted to lying (children over board anyone?), what do Australia voters go "Hey yeah he's good at lying, lets pick him!"

Thats because 80% of Australias voters have got their prioritys in order, I suggest you do the same.
Howard was given wrong information on the children overboard fiasco, which dumb partys such as Labor and Greens have blown into a storm in a teacup, yeah like a labor or Greenie polly never lied about anything. :rolleyes:
Howard and Costello have done what Labor usually do the reverse of, which is to fix the economy, and put it in the black.
Labor, do what they always do, which is to totally **** the economy, with their socialist agendas, putting it always in the red(no pun intended) with dumb minority appeasing policys, and stupid economy reform, where it often isnt even needed,


On the whales I totally agree, the Japs are a barbaric cruel people, who have no sympathy for animals or people(their war record speaks adequetly enough) in pain.
They are truely the worlds weirdos, ask the Chinese. Look at their game shows.
Two nukes were only a good start for these queer bastards.
Fan Grenwick
24-06-2005, 08:35
It should be noted that not everyone in Japan eats whale. I disagree with Japan's stance, but don't paint the whole country under one broad brush.

I totally agree with you on that, in all respects.
Using the logic of painting everyone in a country you could really find something derogatory about every country and peoples in the world.
Greater Finnland
24-06-2005, 08:39
Japan ir ok for me,it's got Nintendo,Sega,Anime,Hentai,Sonic X and other nice
Great Beer and Food
24-06-2005, 08:40
What makes eating whale any worse than eating pork?

Nothing. Thats why I eat neither. Vegetarianism=clean hands.
Europe and Eurasia
24-06-2005, 08:43
I don't think that they should be killing the numbers that they are now, but I don't like the idea of us stiking our noses into their buisiness and saying that we know better.

And Chewbaccula, your on my list :sniper:
NERVUN
24-06-2005, 08:46
Two nukes were only a good start for these queer bastards.
Are you trolling with that one?
Chewbaccula
24-06-2005, 08:52
I don't think that they should be killing the numbers that they are now, but I don't like the idea of us stiking our noses into their buisiness and saying that we know better.
And Chewbaccula, your on my list :sniper:

We do know better, the whales are a sentinent life form, that should be left alone, there is no valid reason for hauling them into floating factorys after harpooning them with grenades, its a cowardly way to kill anything for a start.
If the Japs want to say its cultural, then they can go at it like the tribal people do, using something they lack, courage.

As for your list...stick it up your arsehole.
Chewbaccula
24-06-2005, 08:54
Are you trolling with that one?

No, theres a prophecy that this the five Islands of Japan will one day suffer amassive disaster, and go beneath the waves.
I pray for that day to come, and the sooner the better, they are fucking scum.
NERVUN
24-06-2005, 08:55
If the Japs want to say its cultural, then they can go at it like the tribal people do, using something they lack, courage.
You think the Japanese lack courage? That's your opinion... and yur mistake if you assume so.
Chewbaccula
24-06-2005, 08:57
You think the Japanese lack courage? That's your opinion... and yur mistake if you assume so.

Hunting a defenceless creature, that is against this kind of technology, is gutless, and a disgusting act of cruelty.
Undelia
24-06-2005, 09:08
Nothing. Thats why I eat neither. Vegetarianism=clean hands.

Yep. :D

I pray for that day to come, and the sooner the better, they are fucking scum.

:eek: You never cease to amaze me with your trolling Chewbaccula. There is always a new low, I guess. Anyway, they are not cowards.
You seem to attach their actions in WWII to their current society. Following that logic, they are brave enough to fight to the last man unless the Emperor tells them to stand down. That is irrelevant, though. Japanese society has undergone an incredible metamorphosis over the course of the last decades.
Chewbaccula
24-06-2005, 09:20
Yep. :D
:eek: You never cease to amaze me with your trolling Chewbaccula. There is always a new low, I guess. Anyway, they are not cowards.
You seem to attach their actions in WWII to their current society. Following that logic, they are brave enough to fight to the last man unless the Emperor tells them to stand down. That is irrelevant, though. Japanese society has undergone an incredible metamorphosis over the course of the last decades.

Its not trolling, this is how I honestly feel about these horrible people, you dont think their cowards?
Tell that to the hundreds of Australian and British nurses they raped and butured with machetes in WW2, they sliced their breasts off!
How can you admire a nation that produces people who do this.
Yeah the Emperor tells them not to fight to the last man, and so meekly they enmass throw down their weapons. :rolleyes: gee he really twisted their arms didnt he.
Messplaced
24-06-2005, 09:23
Whaling is rad. I dont see why poeple care so much about animals. Seriously, why are there delicious edible animals on this planet if we can't eat them. And besides whaling is a huge industry in Japan, and if animals rights activists get the whaling industry shut down there could be an economic crash which would of course lead to a nuclear holocaust resulting in a complete destruction of the human race. Also, it isn't cowardly to kill something like that. It takes balls to do something like that.

NOTE: I am a policy debater and in my world, everything leads to nuclear war. And policy is always right.
Undelia
24-06-2005, 09:31
Its not trolling, this is how I honestly feel about these horrible people, you dont think their cowards?
Tell that to the hundreds of Australian and British nurses they raped and butured with machetes in WW2, they sliced their breasts off!
How can you admire a nation that produces people who do this.
Yeah the Emperor tells them not to fight to the last man, and so meekly they enmass throw down their weapons. gee he really twisted their arms didnt he.

The men who did those horrible things are all dead or dieing. They are the same age as our WWII vets. They stood down when the Emperor told them to because they believed he was a living god. They are not the same society today as they were then. They no longer produce those kind of men. Just as the US no longer produces slavers, Indian killers and witch hunters.
Chewbaccula
24-06-2005, 09:37
Whaling is rad. I dont see why poeple care so much about animals. Seriously, why are there delicious edible animals on this planet if we can't eat them. And besides whaling is a huge industry in Japan, and if animals rights activists get the whaling industry shut down there could be an economic crash which would of course lead to a nuclear holocaust resulting in a complete destruction of the human race. Also, it isn't cowardly to kill something like that. It takes balls to do something like that.
NOTE: I am a policy debater and in my world, everything leads to nuclear war. And policy is always right.
Oh yeah, you big tough man you, its so brave to point a grenade loaded harpoon at an animal from a safe distance and fire.
Get a clue on what bravery is first you fukstick :rolleyes:
Chewbaccula
24-06-2005, 09:40
The men who did those horrible things are all dead or dieing. They are the same age as our WWII vets. They stood down when the Emperor told them to because they believed he was a living god. They are not the same society today as they were then. They no longer produce those kind of men. Just as the US no longer produces slavers, Indian killers and witch hunters.

Well lets hope so, I dont stand down on how cruel they are to animals but.
Konwaria
24-06-2005, 09:44
Seriously, why are there delicious edible animals on this planet if we can't eat them.

I bet humans would taste pretty good too, if you put enough barbeque sauce on them. Shall I come over and take a leg? Animals may no tbe able to bitch and moan about it on forums, but that doesn't mean they like being killed any more than any of us would. We are predators-- just look at our canines. But using "I'm supposed to eat meat" as a justification for what many people (IMO rightly) conisder to be an environmental crime is jsut stupid. We're "supposed" to eat meat, ok, sure-- we're also "supposed" to make sure our own genes continue; that doesn't mean we rape everyone we see, does it? I don't know about you lot, but I try to keep certain "natural" impulses in check.

Blaming the current Japanese people for the actions of those in the past is ridiculous. No nation is bloodless. Every land out there has it's own dishonorable deeds in the past-- Japan happens to have had theirs publicized in numerous unpleasant ways, but that is all that sets them apart from any other nation which has committed, say, war crimes. I defy you to find a single culture on this planet who has not abused another.

Referring back to the original topic of the thread, I am no more disgusted by Japanese whaling than I would be by any other nation's. I personally think it's disgusting and inhumane. However, it's not my place to push that view on anyone else. I do not support whaling. Thus, you don't see me out there bringing in ten-tonne carcasses. But far be it from me to tell others what to do-- all I will do is try to show them what harm they cause by their actions, and let them decide what to do.

Oh, and:

Flaming each other on a forum is pointless: so you disagree. Debate, don't insult. Maybe one of you will come out the better (or at least feeling better) for it. Don't jump straight to the :sniper: smilies.

Thanks for some of the info about whaling quotas, population effects on fish/seals/etc., hunting traditions, and everything. It's been an informational discussion.
Chewbaccula
24-06-2005, 09:55
Referring back to the original topic of the thread, I am no more disgusted by Japanese whaling than I would be by any other nation's. I personally think it's disgusting and inhumane. However, it's not my place to push that view on anyone else. I do not support whaling. Thus, you don't see me out there bringing in ten-tonne carcasses. But far be it from me to tell others what to do-- all I will do is try to show them what harm they cause by their actions, and let them decide what to do.


And they will decide to keep on butchering whales, honestly do you really think they will give a damn for your opinion?
Why even voice it, if you have no in intention of enforcing it, you might as well just go piss in the wind.
Konwaria
24-06-2005, 09:58
And they will decide to keep on butchering whales, honestly do you really think they will give a damn for your opinion?
Why even voice it, if you have no in intention of enforcing it, you might as well just go piss in the wind.

Enforce an opinion?

No, I try to persuade people, if I think I might possibly have a chance of success, because I like to think my species is rational and open to persuasion by debate. If that's not the case, well, sucks to be me.
Chewbaccula
24-06-2005, 10:00
Enforce an opinion?
No, I try to persuade people, if I think I might possibly have a chance of success, because I like to think my species is rational and open to persuasion by debate. If that's not the case, well, sucks to be me.

Go and try to persuade the Japanese whalers then, and see how far you get.
Honestly, the only people who make any difference in this world are people of action, your words would be only good for stirring action up, nothing more.
Konwaria
24-06-2005, 10:06
Go and try to persuade the Japanese whalers then, and see how far you get.
Honestly, the only people who make any difference in this world are people of action, your words would be only good for stirring action up, nothing more.

Mmm. My total lack of Japanese-speaking skills might prove a bit of a problem there. But had I the means, I would indeed try. I would try my damndest. And, verily, I would probably fail. That is the way of things-- people are all too good at overcoming guilt and what they know to be the right thing when they're getting payed enough-- refer back to the "Even the gunners say that if whales could scream, the industry would fail." <paraphrase> from earlier in the discussion.

And as to people of action? I never said I wouldn't take action, if I felt something warrunted it-- I just won't force other people to do my will. That is, as I define it, evil.

EDIT: Oh, and if all I can do is stir up action, then I will do just that.
Jure
24-06-2005, 10:24
And they will decide to keep on butchering whales, honestly do you really think they will give a damn for your opinion?
Why even voice it, if you have no in intention of enforcing it, you might as well just go piss in the wind.

Enforcing an opinion is wrong! No human beeing is unequivocal or objective in its opinions and knowledge. The very fact that we are each one being means that we only have one perspective, have only lived one life so far and draw all our experiences from that unique point in existence; but there are so many points more that we will never know about or experience, and there are a lot of things mankind doesn't have a clue about, nor ever will.

Bottom line is: you are here to discuss and be educated by the others' different point's of, not to attack them and enforce your subjective views on them.
Konwaria
24-06-2005, 10:28
Enforcing an opinion is wrong! No human beeing is unequivocal or objective in its opinions and knowledge. The very fact that we are each one being means that we only have one perspective, have only lived one life so far and draw all our experiences from that unique point in existence; but there are so many points more that we will never know about or experience, and there are a lot of things mankind doesn't have a clue about, nor ever will.

Bottom line is: you are here to discuss and be educated by the others' different point's of, not to attack them and enforce your subjective views on them.

Well said.
Chewbaccula
24-06-2005, 10:34
[QUOTE=Konwaria]Mmm. My total lack of Japanese-speaking skills might prove a bit of a problem there. But had I the means, I would indeed try. I would try my damndest. And, verily, I would probably fail. That is the way of things-- people are all too good at overcoming guilt and what they know to be the right thing when they're getting payed enough-- refer back to the "Even the gunners say that if whales could scream, the industry would fail." <paraphrase> from earlier in the discussion.

If all you do is talk, then of course you will fail, and here alot quicker than you realise, I see you imploring the whalers not to leave port, and halfway through your second sentence being bashed senseless.


And as to people of action? I never said I wouldn't take action, if I felt something warrunted it-- I just won't force other people to do my will. That is, as I define it, evil.

Then you have no true concept of what evil is, if your will dictates that whaling will stop if its met with enough force.


EDIT: Oh, and if all I can do is stir up action, then I will do just that.

And then slink away when the fists fly right? A man or woman of courage will always put their body on the line, along with the others they have inspired by their words.To only talk the talk, and let others walk the walk inspired, but where you fear to tread, will leave you in the end with no credibility.
Chewbaccula
24-06-2005, 10:38
[QUOTE=Jure]Enforcing an opinion is wrong!

Wrong, it depends on what the opinion is apposed to, you just cant say its wrong for enforcing it alone.


Bottom line is: you are here to discuss and be educated by the others' different point's of, not to attack them and enforce your subjective views on them.

How am I enforcing it?
Were on the internet m8.
Communistapolis
24-06-2005, 10:48
i thought japan was changed but the're just a bunge of copiing freaks that have no sympathy with other people,animals or so what! :sniper: those japanese!
Kibolonia
24-06-2005, 11:07
Go and try to persuade the Japanese whalers then, and see how far you get.
Honestly, the only people who make any difference in this world are people of action, your words would be only good for stirring action up, nothing more.
There was an HD discovery special on Dolphins where the narrative was tied to this guy who went to Japan to serupticiously documtent the slaughter of whales. Which pisses the Japanese off because the shitstorm from the rest of the world gets focused on Japan, and the Japanese roll the shit downhill to the assholes who "dishonored the nation." So he gets chased off (and the guys doing this are absolutely aware of what the world thinks, they have got their heads on a swivel). Well he comes back years later, and one of the guys who chased him off thanks him profusely. Because he transistioned his whaling business over to a whale watching business, and he even made it as a human interest story in Japan. So he went from national villain to a hero, and his business takes off.
Cadillac-Gage
24-06-2005, 11:09
Mimz']hurting animals is cruel why do you think we have veg and fruit?

mimz

Vegetables are what food eats. :D
Chewbaccula
24-06-2005, 11:16
There was an HD discovery special on Dolphins where the narrative was tied to this guy who went to Japan to serupticiously documtent the slaughter of whales. Which pisses the Japanese off because the shitstorm from the rest of the world gets focused on Japan, and the Japanese roll the shit downhill to the assholes who "dishonored the nation." So he gets chased off (and the guys doing this are absolutely aware of what the world thinks, they have got their heads on a swivel). Well he comes back years later, and one of the guys who chased him off thanks him profusely. Because he transistioned his whaling business over to a whale watching business, and he even made it as a human interest story in Japan. So he went from national villain to a hero, and his business takes off.


Exactly, whales are best watched, not killed and eaten.
The only exceptions to this should be primitive ethnic cultures, who at least put their lives on the line when hunting these creatures, but the Japanese and others who slaughter whales and the rest of sealife with advanced technology, fill me with the urge to defecate on the bar of the next sushi train eatery I walk past.
Kevlanakia
24-06-2005, 12:34
Hunting a defenceless creature, that is against this kind of technology, is gutless, and a disgusting act of cruelty.

Whereas slowly stabbing them to death with spears like noble tribal hunters do is, of course, much less cruel. This is why people who cut other people to death with knives don't receive as harsh sentences as people who kill other people with a clean gunshot to the head. The knife is considered a much braver weapon.

You are hunting around 440 whales a year all for 'scientific research'. And yes, it will be if Japan is allowed to hunt hump backs. So a big bla bla fucking bla to you, so your saying you've justified yourself because there is something worse. Thats like saying if I punch my baby sister in the face slowly killing her it wouldn't matter as long as I stabbed my mother, killing her more evidently.

He's Icelandic. They don't take 440 whales a year. In fact, I'm not sure they even kill enough whales a year for a two-digit number.
Cadillac-Gage
24-06-2005, 13:06
Exactly, whales are best watched, not killed and eaten.
The only exceptions to this should be primitive ethnic cultures, who at least put their lives on the line when hunting these creatures, but the Japanese and others who slaughter whales and the rest of sealife with advanced technology, fill me with the urge to defecate on the bar of the next sushi train eatery I walk past.

The sea will kill anyone stupid enough to think his technology is an impervious shield, and it will also gladly kill you even if you do everything right. Just going out is tempting the reaper.
Non Aligned States
24-06-2005, 13:40
The sea will kill anyone stupid enough to think his technology is an impervious shield, and it will also gladly kill you even if you do everything right. Just going out is tempting the reaper.

Bad experience I take it?
Diamond Realms
24-06-2005, 14:04
Whaling? I expected some other case, like that about them denying facts about their brutal war history in school books, or maybe a list of things, that together makes you dislike Japan. I don't approve of it (I'm not against whaling itself, but there are better ways), but what makes their whaling so bad, that you disgust their entire nation for it?
Glinde Nessroe
24-06-2005, 14:36
Whereas slowly stabbing them to death with spears like noble tribal hunters do is, of course, much less cruel. This is why people who cut other people to death with knives don't receive as harsh sentences as people who kill other people with a clean gunshot to the head. The knife is considered a much braver weapon.



He's Icelandic. They don't take 440 whales a year. In fact, I'm not sure they even kill enough whales a year for a two-digit number.

Oh right, he didn't say so I assumed....and assuming makes an ass of u and me.
Glinde Nessroe
24-06-2005, 14:44
Thats because 80% of Australias voters have got their prioritys in order, I suggest you do the same.
Howard was given wrong information on the children overboard fiasco, which dumb partys such as Labor and Greens have blown into a storm in a teacup, yeah like a labor or Greenie polly never lied about anything. :rolleyes:
Howard and Costello have done what Labor usually do the reverse of, which is to fix the economy, and put it in the black.
Labor, do what they always do, which is to totally **** the economy, with their socialist agendas, putting it always in the red(no pun intended) with dumb minority appeasing policys, and stupid economy reform, where it often isnt even needed,


On the whales I totally agree, the Japs are a barbaric cruel people, who have no sympathy for animals or people(their war record speaks adequetly enough) in pain.
They are truely the worlds weirdos, ask the Chinese. Look at their game shows.
Two nukes were only a good start for these queer bastards.

For one, John howard got the information, lied about it, and admitted it. The greens and Labor are blowing up the issue because he used it as a fucking debating position. I will not change my priorities to a country ran on businesses which have nothing to do with my career or my care for the environment and not sticking a pipe up America's ass and saying it smells like daisy's thank you.

Don't use the word queer thanks.

Whaling? I expected some other case, like that about them denying facts about their brutal war history in school books, or maybe a list of things, that together makes you dislike Japan. I don't approve of it (I'm not against whaling itself, but there are better ways), but what makes their whaling so bad, that you disgust their entire nation for it?

Yeah I know there are alot worse things, but if we wanted to go that way everything would be about Busy.

Well like I said, when I say Japanese I didn't mean all of Japan I meant the whalers, just like when I say I hate Americans, I mean republicans :)
Jibea
24-06-2005, 14:52
Not very disgusted, maybe the whales want to be eaten. Maybe they should have thought about their size before evolving that way. Whale seeing trips are pointless, as you can go to some aquariums to see them do tricks at specific times.

If whales were being hunted to extinction, maybe there is a good reason why. So call me Ishmal
Glinde Nessroe
24-06-2005, 14:57
Not very disgusted, maybe the whales want to be eaten. Maybe they should have thought about their size before evolving that way. Whale seeing trips are pointless, as you can go to some aquariums to see them do tricks at specific times.

If whales were being hunted to extinction, maybe there is a good reason why. So

*stares* You a one messed up cookie. Wait I get it, your pretending to be an idiot right?
Jibea
24-06-2005, 15:02
*stares* You a one messed up cookie. Wait I get it, your pretending to be an idiot right?

Food is food. Doesn't matter what it is made of. For example, the poster did not mention the Inuits who also hunt whales. Whales could give us meat, bones, I think their fat used to be turned into gum by ancient Inuits or similar tribes in North America, we can get whale oil, and their skin could probably be used for
some sort of water proofing.

Also no one ever mentions seal hunting (except that one time I saw it on here), dolphin huning, deer hunting, and other four legged animal hunting.

Also some people kill insects, but no body ever wants to save them.
Jibea
24-06-2005, 15:04
There is also cloning experiments going on, which could bring back the whales if they ever do die.
Jakutopia
24-06-2005, 15:07
I do believe that if they signed the agreement then they should abide by it. However, I really don't know exactly what Japan's current UN status is or which resolutions were mandatory. Personally, I'm more concerned with countries (like North Korea) who seem to be heading towards violations of both NATO and UN resolutions regarding nuclear weapons.

As far as the whales are concerned, I would love to save every species but has anyone considered that this may not be the best course of action? Consider that nature has used evolution and survival of the fittest for billions of years. There is a reason for this, the planet's resources are finite, it can only support so many species at a time and only so many members of each species. I think we might have a better chance of saving endangered species if we controlled our own population growth because the reality is, no government or public is ever going to put the welfare of any animal above the welfare of its human population. After all, nature "hard-wired" OUR species for survival too.
Whispering Legs
24-06-2005, 15:22
I don't see anyone protesting the killing of tuna. Gee, let's save the dolphins, the whales, and the cute baby seals, but let's eat all the other ones.

Save the cute, cuddly, or majestic looking ones, and eat the others.

No move to "save the squid", eh?
Kentuckistan
24-06-2005, 15:28
To make a comment on the whole cow thing that is going around...

Sure, one should respect the life of the animals your eating, but still, in the case of veal the cow is going to be eaten anyway. What does it matter really the way it dies? Do you consider sending a mature cow through the slaughter anymore ethical? To be blunt, their is no real ethicality in the case of animals, as long as you don't mass slaughter them or like... abuse cruely or something. (and by that, I mean like tipping them, just killing them for sport, blah blah)

In fact, if we weren't supposed to eat animals, I'm sure their would be some 11th commandment somewhere saying, "DON'T EAT MEAT".

Dammit, man, eat your meat!

... anyway.

Whales. Yes. Stop the killing. Wait until they are overpopulated - then you blow them up with grenade tipped spears. kthx
Ing-Wigget
24-06-2005, 16:14
I think the main reason why I am against whaling is because whale meat is not needed in a staple diet. Its not even that strongly intergrated into Japanese (or whatever) culture.

I'm Chinese and there are lot of compromises which we have taken to help the enviroment. For instance, shark fin is a fine delicacy in soups. I was horrified to learn that hunters catch the shark from the sea, slice off its fin and toss the bleeding shark back into the ocean to die. Nowadays, there are alternatives to shark fin- vermicelli noodles. They look and taste almost identical. The same goes for other endangered species like this black grass/vegetables which I do not know the English name for. You can also get a harmess vermicelli version of the stuff.

The whole justification of various foodstuff which is not required for a staple diet is why I also do not like the idea of caviar. At least though there are huge fish farms in Russia so it is sustainable.

Perhaps a more enviromentally-friendly alternative for whale meat should be introduced which tastes the same (though I wonder why one would want it to) but does not mean the killing of these endangered species.
New Shiron
24-06-2005, 16:52
I don't see anyone protesting the killing of tuna. Gee, let's save the dolphins, the whales, and the cute baby seals, but let's eat all the other ones.

Save the cute, cuddly, or majestic looking ones, and eat the others.

No move to "save the squid", eh?

actually several posters, including myself, railed against overfishing (which would include Tuna fishing). And Tuna are actually very impressive fish, and pretty damn big too.
Crabcake Baba Ganoush
24-06-2005, 17:19
I have learned much from Japan and intend to learn much much more. I've even got other people to start learning from the Japanese.



Well more specifically from hentai, but that is sort of a Japanese thing so it all works out.
Letila
24-06-2005, 19:32
Well more specifically from hentai, but that is sort of a Japanese thing so it all works out.

Yes, my demonology is based on hentai.
Kibolonia
24-06-2005, 21:55
Also no one ever mentions seal hunting (except that one time I saw it on here), dolphin huning, deer hunting, and other four legged animal hunting.
The deer are asking for it. They're the most dangerous animal in North America. It's us or them.
Crabcake Baba Ganoush
25-06-2005, 00:49
*Sigh*
I wish my things I learned from hentai list was still up here. Everyone here deserves a good education from it. :(
New Shiron
25-06-2005, 04:04
The deer are asking for it. They're the most dangerous animal in North America. It's us or them.

deer hunting is allowed, and in fact is practically a neccesity because we shot all of their predators long ago (Red Wolf, Gray Wolf, Cougar) except for a few scattered populations. There are literally millions of deer, and overgrazing and starvation can be a problem unless they are hunted and culled (that is killed).

Personally, not a big venison fan myself but there are those who swear by it for taste.

This is a completely differrent situation from whaling and industralized fishery, where the take has been so huge that the population is been reduced to the point were the danger exists that they will die off. Overfishing has wiped out whole species as commercial resource, including Salmon, Anchovies, Cod and more. Whaling was slaughtering the big whales to the point where they were in danger of die off until it was drastically curtailed by the first Whaling ban. They still have not recovered their populations.

I am not a big fan of seal hunting either, but I don't know where we are with them population wise. I do know that we over hunted the Sea Otter to near extinction and their numbers are dangerously thin off California and off Alaska.
Chewbaccula
25-06-2005, 06:19
Not very disgusted, maybe the whales want to be eaten. Maybe they should have thought about their size before evolving that way. Whale seeing trips are pointless, as you can go to some aquariums to see them do tricks at specific times.
If whales were being hunted to extinction, maybe there is a good reason why. So

And the totally fubar post award goes too....
Chewbaccula
25-06-2005, 06:21
[QUOTE=Kevlanakia]Whereas slowly stabbing them to death with spears like noble tribal hunters do is, of course, much less cruel. This is why people who cut other people to death with knives don't receive as harsh sentences as people who kill other people with a clean gunshot to the head. The knife is considered a much braver weapon.

Yes it is a braver weapon, much braver, because it puts the hunter in a position where the whale can actually kill him back.
Chewbaccula
25-06-2005, 06:22
The sea will kill anyone stupid enough to think his technology is an impervious shield, and it will also gladly kill you even if you do everything right. Just going out is tempting the reaper.

I know the power of the sea, but I dont see what this has got to do with the subject.
Krackonis
25-06-2005, 06:28
Only the fact that the whales can't be bred in captivity on a mass scale, throwing out the possibility of an economically feasible whale farm. As such, all whales used are from the wild and could possibly be hunted to extinction.

I do believe it has already happened to several species.


Actually, that whale was called the Right Whale. The name signified it was the "right type" to hunt. No so right for the whale species, but hey, rich humans are evil humans...
Chewbaccula
25-06-2005, 06:29
=Glinde Nessroe]For one, John howard got the information, lied about it, and admitted it. The greens and Labor are blowing up the issue because he used it as a fucking debating position. I will not change my priorities to a country ran on businesses which have nothing to do with my career or my care for the environment and not sticking a pipe up America's ass and saying it smells like daisy's thank you.

The only lies here are the ones spouted by you and the rest of the Howard h8ters, and I h8 to break this to you, but most of Australia, doesnt give two craps about the children overboard fiasco.
Its just not that important.
I agree on the enviroment.
Um the pipe up Americas ass... they are our allies you realise?
Dont you think its important to have allies?


Don't use the word queer thanks.

Its just a word, get over it.
Draconis Federation
25-06-2005, 06:32
Very, damn xenophobics, won't give me citizneship, when I become Emporer of the World I'll make Japan my only personal toliet
Kibolonia
25-06-2005, 08:17
Re New Shiron,

I was having a little fun sure. But deer really are the most dangerous animal in North America. They'd kill you as soon as look at you.
Arnburg
25-06-2005, 08:52
I'm disgusted at the World, especially the US! And I am an American that lives here. The US is downright evil!
Chewbaccula
25-06-2005, 13:02
I'm disgusted at the World, especially the US! And I am an American that lives here. The US is downright evil!

Whys that?
Zefielia
25-06-2005, 13:21
Doctors kill millions of infants each year in a practice called "abortion". Until society gets it's head out of it's collective ass and outlaws that, I'm eatin me whale and dolphin for supper.
Chewbaccula
25-06-2005, 13:31
Doctors kill millions of infants each year in a practice called "abortion". Until society gets it's head out of it's collective ass and outlaws that, I'm eatin me whale and dolphin for supper.

I agree on the sanctioned mass murder called abortion, or even termination as the truly evil like to view it, but we can still apose slaughter of whales by nasty peoples like the Japanese.
Hakartopia
25-06-2005, 13:35
Whys that?

They are opposed to silly hats.
LazyHippies
25-06-2005, 13:42
I dont hate the Japanese at all and could care less about the whales. They wouldnt be the first species to go extinct nor will they be the last.
North Island
25-06-2005, 13:46
I agree on the sanctioned mass murder called abortion, or even termination as the truly evil like to view it, but we can still apose slaughter of whales by nasty peoples like the Japanese.

You can still apose abortion too.
Kevlanakia
25-06-2005, 13:59
Yes it is a braver weapon, much braver, because it puts the hunter in a position where the whale can actually kill him back.

And where the whale, whether it survived or not, would have the equivalent of several sharpened knitting needles jabbed into it.
Miodrag
25-06-2005, 14:14
Two richest countries (I am talking serious countries, not puny statelets) of the world, Norway and Japan indulge in whale meat. I had the luck to try it in Norway (even though I do not eat meat of domesticated animals) and it was SUPER DELICIOUS.
Green Creek
25-06-2005, 14:49
I stumbled across this thread quite by accident while maintaining my nation and feel inspired to respond, for what it's worth.

Living in a 'traditional native village' in Alaska gives me a little insight into the whaling scene, so here are my thoughts:

-Natives here don't use spears to hunt whales, they use propelled harpoons tipped with explosive 'whale bombs'. These bombs are frequently made of brass, and are designed to penetrate several inches into the whale's head and explode, thereby killing the whale instantly. In theory. In practice, this is rarely successful. But spears? I don't think so. Some whaling crews have a person to symbolically throw a spear into an already-bombed whale. More often than not, they also carry something along the lines of a 30-40mm cannon.

-Whale meat is not needed for sustenance. Most locals I know will celebrate the catching of the whale with a dinner of muktuk, then go right back to steak or whatever, bought at the A/C store. You can go to any house here in town and see piles of meat rotting next to and in dumpsters. There is a LOT of waste.

-The primarily used item off whales is baleen, that bony-finny stuff on the outside of the whale. And the primary use for baleen is to make crafts to sell to tourists at grossly inflated prices.

-I don't know about the figures of 10 whales per year, our village landed 14 this year, and we're one of several dozen on the North Slope that practices this crap.

(No, I'm not a fan of whaling. I think it's a huge waste of meat, time, and occasionally, people- we had 2 drownings. Also, muktuk is just nasty!)

If you'd like pics of some of this, feel free to email me.
Hyperslackovicznia
25-06-2005, 15:27
What makes Japan worse than Norway for example, or perhaps the several native North American tribes who have hunted whales for thousands of years? :confused:

The northern tribes have done it out of necessity, they wouldn't have been able to live otherwise, if it were not for all the products they were able to make from whales that allowed them to live... Not overhunting and not for profit.

I love whales, and I want to go to the west coast to go whale watching. They're so beautiful. :)
Hyperslackovicznia
25-06-2005, 15:29
I stumbled across this thread quite by accident while maintaining my nation and feel inspired to respond, for what it's worth.

Living in a 'traditional native village' in Alaska gives me a little insight into the whaling scene, so here are my thoughts:

-Natives here don't use spears to hunt whales, they use propelled harpoons tipped with explosive 'whale bombs'. These bombs are frequently made of brass, and are designed to penetrate several inches into the whale's head and explode, thereby killing the whale instantly. In theory. In practice, this is rarely successful. But spears? I don't think so. Some whaling crews have a person to symbolically throw a spear into an already-bombed whale. More often than not, they also carry something along the lines of a 30-40mm cannon.

-Whale meat is not needed for sustenance. Most locals I know will celebrate the catching of the whale with a dinner of muktuk, then go right back to steak or whatever, bought at the A/C store. You can go to any house here in town and see piles of meat rotting next to and in dumpsters. There is a LOT of waste.

-The primarily used item off whales is baleen, that bony-finny stuff on the outside of the whale. And the primary use for baleen is to make crafts to sell to tourists at grossly inflated prices.

-I don't know about the figures of 10 whales per year, our village landed 14 this year, and we're one of several dozen on the North Slope that practices this crap.

(No, I'm not a fan of whaling. I think it's a huge waste of meat, time, and occasionally, people- we had 2 drownings. Also, muktuk is just nasty!)

If you'd like pics of some of this, feel free to email me.

I didn't read your post prior to posting mine. FYI, I'm referring to years past, when whales were needed for sustinance. What goes on now, I have no clue. It seems unneccesary. Like hunting endangered sharks, just to cut the fins off and throw them back so someone can have luxury shark fin soup.
Hadesofunderworld
25-06-2005, 15:37
I have so many other, better reasons to be disgusted by Japan:

Sumo wrestling.
Anime.
Cel phones with buttons so small you hit four keys with one fingertip.
The Iron Chef.
Shonen Knife.

I like some Anime, but a lot of it is crap, and we get all these stupid people going around thinking they know everything just cause they've seen every episode of some Cartoon and go around dissing American shows

What really disgusts me is the cars, little bitty pieces of Plastic buzzing around and once you hit something you aint coming out of it alive

what happened to the good old days with Sturdy Metal cars?

the only good thing I can really say is they're keeping Bill Gates from taking over every major industry in America (all thanks to Sony and the Playstation, X-box doesn't stand a chance)
Hyperslackovicznia
25-06-2005, 15:45
Doctors kill millions of infants each year in a practice called "abortion". Until society gets it's head out of it's collective ass and outlaws that, I'm eatin me whale and dolphin for supper.

Sure they do. Why is it no one gives a shit after the child is born? Are YOU going to take them all in?

Sorry, that was off topic, but what a bunch of CRAP.
Potaria
25-06-2005, 15:47
Sure they do. Why is it no one gives a shit after the child is born? Are YOU going to take them all in?

Sorry, that was off topic, but what a bunch of CRAP.

Off-topic, maybe, but you raised a damn good point.
Hadesofunderworld
25-06-2005, 15:50
Sorry, I got a bit off topic too, ranting about videogames
Oybsaiilsk
25-06-2005, 16:03
Hunt them to extinction I say, I know something you don't, the world is going to end in 28 days, 6 hours, 42 minutes and 12 seconds, so it's time for that great pub crawl boys, and a few acts of ultra-violence
Hadesofunderworld
25-06-2005, 16:08
Hunt them to extinction I say, I know something you don't, the world is going to end in 28 days, 6 hours, 42 minutes and 12 seconds, so it's time for that great pub crawl boys, and a few acts of ultra-violence

Are you Drunk, High, or just plain Stupid

Violence solves nothing

that's why we nuke them rather than shoot them all (Just Kidding)
WhoyousayIam
25-06-2005, 16:44
Whale hunting should be outlawed, but even with protective laws in place, who is going police these laws?

There is always a price to be paid for wipping out a creature from our earth.

We all want to talk big about what we should do to solve this problem, but who really has the guts to enforce these laws?

I say that "We should protect the whales, as Africa has done about poching elephants, rino and other endangered animals. With force! "Pochers should be arrested and evidence collected and the United Nations prosocute them fully, but if the offender's choses to fight or flee justice, the nation's court should order pocher's may be shot onsite by Special Animal Patrol Protection Officers.

Like I said, who has the balls to backup what they say with action?
Glinde Nessroe
26-06-2005, 02:28
Food is food. Doesn't matter what it is made of. For example, the poster did not mention the Inuits who also hunt whales. Whales could give us meat, bones, I think their fat used to be turned into gum by ancient Inuits or similar tribes in North America, we can get whale oil, and their skin could probably be used for
some sort of water proofing.

Also no one ever mentions seal hunting (except that one time I saw it on here), dolphin huning, deer hunting, and other four legged animal hunting.

Also some people kill insects, but no body ever wants to save them.

Plenty of people mentioned Inuits and countered it by saying Japan does not utilize all the parts of the whales. Most of it is to busy being blown up.

There is also cloning experiments going on, which could bring back the whales if they ever do die.

Your faling back on cloning? Yeah, cloning clearer helps hold stable creatures, I mean ya know Dolly lived a long and natural life...

After all, nature "hard-wired" OUR species for survival too.

Nature never intended for man to fly but hey...

I don't see anyone protesting the killing of tuna. Gee, let's save the dolphins, the whales, and the cute baby seals, but let's eat all the other ones.


Well make your own damn board about it jeez, why don't you go to a board about religion and talk about Tuna as well!
Glinde Nessroe
26-06-2005, 02:42
The only lies here are the ones spouted by you and the rest of the Howard h8ters, and I h8 to break this to you, but most of Australia, doesnt give two craps about the children overboard fiasco.
Its just not that important.
I agree on the enviroment.
Um the pipe up Americas ass... they are our allies you realise?
Dont you think its important to have allies?


"Queer" Its just a word, get over it.

Howard haters. Why did you replace the a with an 8? Hey no, actually go and research instead of gettin your nickers in a knot. And yes, alot of Australia does care, it's called the people voting against Howard, ya know people like teachers...They are not our allies, there more like am abusive boyfriend screaming "Who's your daddy" who we follow around and agree with their culture killing trade agreements like free-trade which will ruin the Australian creative arts industry.

And no mate, I'm homosexual and don't like my sexual preference being used to desribe something wrong or derogatory. So pull the stick outta your cock and learn what a voacbulary is and learn that writing an 8 instead of an a does not make you king shit.

Doctors kill millions of infants each year in a practice called "abortion". Until society gets it's head out of it's collective ass and outlaws that, I'm eatin me whale and dolphin for supper.

Oh! Oh! I see the logic in that, well let me see, I am going to murder 1st born sons because bush is in power because I like using Zefielia logic!


Like I said, who has the balls to backup what they say with action?

Well when I become God, I'll kick a few right in the balls for you.
Chewbaccula
26-06-2005, 09:00
[QUOTE][QUOTE=Glinde Nessroe]Howard haters. Why did you replace the a with an 8?

Its called typefast m8...

Hey no, actually go and research instead of gettin your nickers in a knot. And yes, alot of Australia does care, it's called the people voting against Howard,


I have, children were thrown overboard, big deal. wouldnt you throw your kids overboard, then jump after them if your boat was sinking?
The percentage of Australians that vote against Howard are commonly viewed as 'useless socialist shit stirring cowardly ratbags, who have nothing better to do in their jaded existance', or just plain stupid people, who vote for a second ra8 party like Labor, instead of a smart one like Liberal.
In short people that r unimportant.





ya know people like teachers...
You mean the commie socialist ratbags who want to undermine our whole school system, and democracy by turning kids against the government, they shouldnt even be doing this to start with, School is for academic learning, not social engineering.

They are not our allies, there more like am abusive boyfriend screaming "Who's your daddy" who we follow around and agree with their culture killing trade agreements like free-trade which will ruin the Australian creative arts industry.

They 'r' our allies, see your history, they stood by us against the Japs, and thats enough for me.

And no mate, I'm homosexual and don't like my sexual preference being used to desribe something wrong or derogatory.

It wasnt my intention to insult you by calling the japs queer, if I've offended then my apologys.

So pull the stick outta your cock and learn what a voacbulary is and learn that writing an 8 instead of an a does not make you king shit.

Oh dear... stick outta cock? Is this something you and your partner practice? shudders... You truly r one twisted sick individual.
Do you abuse everyone on here that use shortcuts?
Get over it ya drip. :rolleyes:
Glinde Nessroe
26-06-2005, 10:54
[QUOTE][QUOTE]
I have, children were thrown overboard, big deal. wouldnt you throw your kids overboard, then jump after them if your boat was sinking?
The percentage of Australians that vote against Howard are commonly viewed as 'useless socialist shit stirring cowardly ratbags, who have nothing better to do in their jaded existance', or just plain stupid people, who vote for a second ra8 party like Labor, instead of a smart one like Liberal.
In short people that r unimportant.

You mean the commie socialist ratbags who want to undermine our whole school system, and democracy by turning kids against the government, they shouldnt even be doing this to start with, School is for academic learning, not social engineering.

They 'r' our allies, see your history, they stood by us against the Japs, and thats enough for me.

It wasnt my intention to insult you by calling the japs queer, if I've offended then my apologys.

Oh dear... stick outta cock? Is this something you and your partner practice? shudders... You truly r one twisted sick individual.
Do you abuse everyone on here that use shortcuts?
Get over it ya drip. :rolleyes:

You know what I don't usually, I just find it hard to beleive that writing 'h8ters' was faster than writing 'haters'. Moron.

Commie social ratbags= labour. Oh, I see. *goes and gets you a lovely white jacket*

And maybe that's enough for you because of your field of lifestyle, that being (uses mind powers) white heterosexual liberal (republican if you were in america) voter, middle class wage who acts like a teenager. I'm guessing your a typical guy with no interest in culture or theatre, you like chicks with big tits and a tan, enjoy cars crashing and probably listen to...what Jimmy Barnes or maybe you just sit around shitting in your pants believing the odour is vibrant and refreshing. But I'm sorry if I want Australia's future not to simply be 50 billion different versions of Law & Order but I am a drama teacher and see the talent we have to offer and don't believe it should be dashed just because we were helped in a war we had very little to do with or benefit from.

Do you abuse everyone on here who has a different opinion than you with prejudicial slang?

But we're talking about whales anyhow...aren't we :)
Daistallia 2104
26-06-2005, 11:40
Well, well, well - the last page here (last 25 or so posts for those who are still using 10 posts to a page or whatever) certainly has demonstrated the sentiments behind the old bumpersticker "nuke the unborn gay whales"...
Kevlanakia
30-06-2005, 11:11
Funny how the whole thread derailed after someone said modern day inuits' whaling wasn't as noble or necessary as certain people in this thread have claimed...
Glinde Nessroe
09-07-2005, 07:11
lol I find it hard to believe you even care, go back 2 kindergarten gayboy.
On second thoughts stay away from the kindergarten...




Mostly yes, Labor are socialist through and through, do you know anything?



None of the above especially the last part, umm is this from experience?
Part of your gay perverted life style perhaps?




Great so instead of teaching drama to kids, you create your own drama, and inflict your socialist mores onto them and if they look at each other nervously and say hey Teach, can we just learn about drama for a change, not your stupid social commie stuff? You scream racist at them right?


pot=kettle. :rolleyes:



Yes, I thought we were until u went off on your homoparanoia about my queer comment, honestly, go & get a life u twerp.

hey so sorry to bring this up, but does this guy just get away with this? I get all this flaming because I asked him not to use the word "Gay" as a derogatory term.
Druidville
09-07-2005, 07:15
What makes eating whale any worse than eating pork?

A. Pork makes better sandwiches. (Ham!)
B. Pigs are easy to grow; we're running out of whales.
Potaria
09-07-2005, 07:17
B. Pigs are easy to grow

That's quite true. They need far less fertile soil, don't take as much space underground when they're ready to sprout, and generally don't need as much sunlight.

...

*runs*
New Shiron
09-07-2005, 07:18
hey so sorry to bring this up, but does this guy just get away with this? I get all this flaming because I asked him not to use the word "Gay" as a derogatory term.

Be careful about reopening threads that are weeks old, that is usually considered gravedigging, and the Mods frown on it. Complaints about content should be reported to the Mods, who decide if it is considering offensive or inflammatory. In addition, your post isn't really on topic either.

Druidville, I am with you on the ham thing though.
Glinde Nessroe
09-07-2005, 07:21
Be careful about reopening threads that are weeks old, that is usually considered gravedigging, and the Mods frown on it. Complaints about content should be reported to the Mods, who decide if it is considering offensive or inflammatory. In addition, your post isn't really on topic either.

Druidville, I am with you on the ham thing though.

Righto I just didn't know were I could have my 2 cent bitch. Well I shall go do that and request this topic be locked while I'm at it.
Sick Dreams
09-07-2005, 07:29
Be careful about reopening threads that are weeks old, that is usually considered gravedigging,
Is that against the rules?
Glinde Nessroe
09-07-2005, 07:31
Is that against the rules?

Okay clearly I made a post saying I was doing something about it...I just posted in the mod things so everyone can just hush now.
Chuloon
09-07-2005, 07:40
I have no respect for Japan already for yanno...The subjugation, colonization, and later pillaging of the Korean penninsula, the Philippine death marches, and the pillaging of China...Yeah.
The Chinese Republics
09-07-2005, 07:52
This is what I'm disgusted by Japan:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/04/07/textbok050407.html

IDIOTS!!!

:mad: :mad: :mad:

anyways.....

I have so many other, better reasons to be disgusted by Japan:

Sumo wrestling.
Anime.
Cel phones with buttons so small you hit four keys with one fingertip.
The Iron Chef.
Shonen Knife.

Sumo wrestling = A sport for overweight obiest men.

Anime = Very, very, very annoying cartoons made by Japan. (except porno :D )

Cel phones with buttons so small you hit four keys with one fingertip = Japanese people must be very small these days.

The Iron Chef = Like anime, very, very annoying. The US version is even worst.

Shonen Knife = wtf?
Chastmere
09-07-2005, 07:55
There are two sides to this arguement:

Sustainable hunting
Im pretty certain that Japans current quota is not sustainable, and even moreso their desired quota is definately not sustainable.

With the long lifespan of a whale, and the extroadinarily sparse reproduction rate, any significant hunting of whales is simple going to lead to an ever increasing decline in whale numbers.

Moral
It is true that whales suffer a great deal when they are harpooned, but any methods Norweigian or Japanese produce this prolonged painful effect.
Take for example cattle. In this country cattle are knocked unconcious by a bolt shot through their skull, they are then bled which effectively kills them. Now the only pain the cow would feel is the pain which it only percieves for a fragment of a second, before it is knocked unconcious.
Unfortunately for whales, this kind of practice is unfeasible in the environment in which they live. And I for one am against animal cruelty, and yes the way whales are hunted IS animal cruelty, no matter who does it.