NationStates Jolt Archive

Idea from Mythotic Kelkia:

What if Jesus was never born?
How would that affect history?
What would happen?
What would the world be like?

THis is a non-religous post, it is purly history so don't evangelis please I beg you! What would the world be like?

If you feel this is too weak you can add another thoeretical historic event..

this is alternate history, go to alternatehistory.com/discussion for all your alternate history needs.

What if Jesus was never born?
Nothing would change.
The Roman crucified a messiah just a year or so before jesus, and another one three years later.
People yearned for some kind of messiah, and one would've made it regardless of what his name was.
So we might be in the year 1999 or something now, but that's pretty much it.

Yeah, it's funny how it was happening all the time during that age. How all the astronomers and fortunetellers and the prophets from around the region thought that the signs were ripe, how the stars and divinations indicated the messiah was coming.

It's funny how they all had these expectations of what that would mean and many wondered how they could take advantage of it for their own personal gain, or stop it to maintain their own personal gain...


It was going on like that for a couple of generations anyway...

Until the one that tied a knot in their plans by not being what they were looking for and doubled their consternation by not staying dead.

Funny how things like that worked out. They couldn't even squash all those heretics from spreading their beliefs with first the threat of death and then killing them, they still ran around insisting it was true...

-snip-
Was that one in response to my post?
This isn't a religion thread (as hard as it's gonna be to keep it away from that), so I won't respond.
Suffice to say that I don't think he was any more of a messiah than any other guy.

your right about the profit thing... Just like Monty Python's life of Brian: Everyday The holy good python teaches you something...

I do feel that another religon would take its place, but some time later. thus changing world events such as Constantine and such.... Who knows the roman empire could've lived longer or collapsed earlier..... Think of it...

Was that one in response to my post?
This isn't a religion thread (as hard as it's gonna be to keep it away from that), so I won't respond.
Suffice to say that I don't think he was any more of a messiah than any other guy.

Sure, lots of people never write anything down, don't lead a country, never lead an army and get remembered for two thousand years anyway... Lot of people come back from the dead, it happens all the time and it makes no differnce, anyone could have done that...

-snip-
You're trying to provoke me now. Stop it.
I think the whole not-quite-dead thing is a story his preachers made up when they tried to get people to follow their cult.
Point is: In any time, but especially after Rome crushed Israel like that, esoterics and stuff were popular. I can guarantee you that both before Jesus and after people "found the messiah" all the time, complete with stars, undead and so on.
One cult made it big, the others disappeared. Whether or not the guy is named Jesus or ...dunno...Hasdrubal is irrelevant. But make a "Jesus really was the son of god"-thread if you want to discuss that.

Of course they made it up... without a doubt. Thats why, after forty years of Jewish leaders trying to stomp them out, and then Jerusalem being smashed by Rome, and yet, Rome the city is buring, and the leader of the gentile cult has his head chopped off and the leader of the Jerusalem sect is killed, and the cult is banned and criminalized so that anyone in the empire that professes it is killed as entertainment in the arena, (for hundreds of years), and of course, any old silly made up bullshit story would still be attracting converts, because it is NOT true and everything. That makes perfect sense... Surely.

....any old silly made up bullshit story would still be attracting converts, because it is NOT true and everything. That makes perfect sense... Surely.
Yep.

You're trying to provoke me now. Stop it.
I think the whole not-quite-dead thing is a story his preachers made up when they tried to get people to follow their cult.
Point is: In any time, but especially after Rome crushed Israel like that, esoterics and stuff were popular. I can guarantee you that both before Jesus and after people "found the messiah" all the time, complete with stars, undead and so on.
One cult made it big, the others disappeared. Whether or not the guy is named Jesus or ...dunno...Hasdrubal is irrelevant. But make a "Jesus really was the son of god"-thread if you want to discuss that.

Cult is probably defemation. You should be a bit more careful.

Of course, that's just a friendly comment on wording. I can't make any decisions or anything of the sort.

Yep.

Surely that must be why Charles Manson is still attracting converts, I'm sure he'll be rememeberd for two thousand years as well.

Anybody can do it, it happens all the time.

Cult is probably defemation. You should be a bit more careful.
Sorry everyone, I myself don't like where this is going...but here goes
from wikipedia: A Cult is
"In religion and sociology, a cult is a group of people (often a new religious movement) devoted to beliefs and goals which may be contradictory to those held by the majority of society. Its marginal status may come about either due to its novel belief system or due to idiosyncratic practices that cause the surrounding culture to regard it as far outside the mainstream."
And Cult(religious):
"In traditional usage, the cult of a religion, quite apart from its sacred writings ("scriptures"), its theology or myths, or the personal faith of its believers, is the totality of external religious practice and observance, the neglect of which is the definition of impiety. Cult is literally the "care" owed to the god and the shrine. The term "cult" originated in 1617 from the french word culte meaning "worship" or "a particular form of worship" which in turn originated from the Latin word cultus meaning "care, cultivation, worship," originally "tended, cultivated," also the past particable of colere "to till" The meaning "devotion to a person or thing" is from 1829."

Surely that must be why Charles Manson is still attracting converts, I'm sure he'll be rememeberd for two thousand years as well.

Anybody can do it, it happens all the time.

Yes, it does happen relatively all the time (in historical terms). I'm pretty sure you don't think Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Baha'i are all completely true, and similar things happened to them.

Sorry everyone, I myself don't like where this is going...but here goes
from wikipedia: A Cult is
"In religion and sociology, a cult is a group of people (often a new religious movement) devoted to beliefs and goals which may be contradictory to those held by the majority of society. Its marginal status may come about either due to its novel belief system or due to idiosyncratic practices that cause the surrounding culture to regard it as far outside the mainstream."

Wikipedia is user-created.

Very useful sometimes, but, for example, my friend once (mis)used Wikipedia to attack a MUD called "materia magica."

So Wikipedia is an...iffy...source, sometimes.

1.
1. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
2. The followers of such a religion or sect.
2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.
5.
1. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
2. The object of such devotion.
6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.


The majority of those are bad.


I'm saying you should be careful-What cult means and what it is INSINUATED that it means are two different things, and that is the difference between a nice post and a post declared as "flamebaiting."

But what do I know?

Anybody can do it, it happens all the time.
I'll quote myself:
One cult made it big, the others disappeared.
Mohammed is still doing it. Buddha is still doing it. As is old man Singh.

How many books did Mohamed write as he led his army on a conquest across the Middle East? I'm sure he wasn't remembered for that. But rather, how many of his books referenced Jesus and how many referenced Jesus as NOT the guy the new testament claimed him to be? Therefore, the Mohamed guy could be argued to be latching onto Jesus coat-tails in the negative way.

As for Buddha, obviously you haven't read it, nobody believes Buddha was either God nor that ever came back from the dead, but he wrote some nice books about how to look at the world and try to enjoy it as you live through it...

Jesus didn't write any books nor lead an army, what then was he remembered for?

Idea from Mythotic Kelkia:

What if Jesus was never born?
How would that affect history?
What would happen?
What would the world be like?

THis is a non-religous post, it is purly history so don't evangelis please I beg you! What would the world be like?

If you feel this is too weak you can add another thoeretical historic event..


Non-religious standpoint, uhhh...

Life would be signifigantly different.

Oh, hrm.

Start with no Christ, uhhh.

Roman Empire loses stability, falls far earlier(keeping hold without a monotheistic God is harder), 'barbarians' take it down earlier and expand, Egyptians expand and control more of Africa, Jews are in the same position of diaspora...

Later when Mongols come Europe is less advanced and gets ravaged by Mongol invasions(and Viking ones too), set up colonies which are taken over by the middle east/africa.
Africa/Middle East become the most powerful areas of the world, Europe is the new Africa and they become colonies of Africans/Middle Easterners.

Americas become united under a few more United Governments, Asians become very strongly united under one government due to the mongols strengthening the governments there with continued success and it becomes a tripod of power around the 1200s with the Asians in second, Americans in 3rd, and Middle Easterners/Africans in 1st.

That's just a few random, vague assumptions.

-snip-
Oh, quit it. Mohammed wrote the Koran (or more or less got it dictated).
According to the three religions of the West the Jews got the first bit and are still waiting for the Messiah, the Christians think they did get the Messiah (who'll come back), and Muslims think Jesus was a prophet but not the son of god and that an Angel came and told Mohammed the third and complete bit of the triology.
Mohammed may have led an army (I didn't read the Koran) but only took one city: Mekka (or was it Medina..?)
He didn't conquer the middle east. That was done afterwards. And apparently he didn't die either, but was moved to heaven - just like Jesus.
Check out the "Ask a Muslim" Thread and ask about those things there. You'll find many similarities between Jesus and Mohammed.

How many books did Mohamed write as he led his army on a conquest across the Middle East? I'm sure he wasn't remembered for that. But rather, how many of his books referenced Jesus and how many referenced Jesus as NOT the guy the new testament claimed him to be? Therefore, the Mohamed guy could be argued to be latching onto Jesus coat-tails in the negative way.

As for Buddha, obviously you haven't read it, nobody believes Buddha was either God nor that ever came back from the dead, but he wrote some nice books about how to look at the world and try to enjoy it as you live through it...

Jesus didn't write any books nor lead an army, what then was he remembered for?

Buddha still got people to believe a religion, one in which he and every other person is reincarnated.

And it seems like people actually writing the books themselves is much better proof of their existence as described than having other people write them long after you were dead.

Oh, quit it. Mohammed wrote the Koran (or more or less got it dictated).
According to the three religions of the West the Jews got the first bit and are still waiting for the Messiah, the Christians think they did get the Messiah (who'll come back), and Muslims think Jesus was a prophet but not the son of god and that an Angel came and told Mohammed the third and complete bit of the triology.
Mohammed may have led an army (I didn't read the Koran) but only took one city: Mekka (or was it Medina..?)
He didn't conquer the middle east. That was done afterwards. And apparently he didn't die either, but was moved to heaven - just like Jesus.
Check out the "Ask a Muslim" Thread and ask about those things there. You'll find many similarities between Jesus and Mohammed.

Obviously you haven't read the Qur'an.

As to Buddha, Buddhist can join other religions. Buddhism is a way of life and an excercise of consionce and existence, it it is not in itself a end-all. Buddha did not teach reincarnation, Hindu did. You guys are getting your stuff mixed up.

Buddhism teaches the existence of the ten realms of being. At the top is Buddha and the scale descends as follows: Bodhisattva (an enlightened being destined to be a Buddha, but purposely remaining on earth to teach others), Pratyeka Buddha (a Buddha for himself), Sravka (direct disciple of Buddha), heavenly beings (superhuman [angels?]), human beings, Asura (fighting spirits), beasts, Preta (hungry ghosts), and depraved men (hellish beings).

When Buddha talks about reincarnation (not really being born over and over again) the idea is being presented, where are you in the realms, how much more do you need to learn before you are ready to move on, etc., etc., etc.

As for Buddha, obviously you haven't read it, nobody believes Buddha was either God nor that ever came back from the dead, but he wrote some nice books about how to look at the world and try to enjoy it as you live through it...


Mahayana Buddhism and Some Hindu theologies believe that Buddha is an avatar or a manifestation of the supreme.

Budha's philosophy is not to "enjoy" the world, rather to "renounce" it.

Added Later: Theravada / Hinayana Buddhism is quite different from Mahayana.