NationStates Jolt Archive

Ladies and gentlemen,

Senator Durbin has officially apologized for his comments on the Gitmo Guards.

The news has just crossed the wire. More on it as links appear.

*hugs random NSers and cries in happiness*

Durbin Issues Belated Apology
Transterrestrial Musings Weblog ^ | June 17th, 2005 | Rand Simberg


Posted on 06/17/2005 7:07:48 AM PDT by NonZeroSum


June 17th, 2005


WASHINGTON (APUPI) Amidst growing outrage at his comparisons of US troops to Pol Pot's regime, Nazis and Stalin's Gulag, Illinois Senator Richard Durbin backed off from his earlier comments today, reading from a prepared statement outside his office that he hadn't meant to directly compare the situations:


"I realize that my comments unjustly slandered many people in southeast Asia and other places who were simply trying to achieve a better society, and did not intend to compare what they did to the horrific atrocities that were occuring, and continue to occur, in Guantanamo. I wish to deeply apologize to those, like International A.N.S.W.E.R, who properly took umbrage at such an odious comparison. I hope that this apology will finally lay this issue to rest."


He refused to take any further questions.

lol

Not much of an apology but I guess its a start!

Thank you Sinuhue.

"I realize that my comments unjustly slandered many people in southeast Asia and other places who were simply trying to achieve a better society, and did not intend to compare what they did to the horrific atrocities that were occuring, and continue to occur, in Guantanamo. I wish to deeply apologize to those, like International A.N.S.W.E.R, who properly took umbrage at such an odious comparison. I hope that this apology will finally lay this issue to rest."

Ow...Is this true? Did he actually say this?

Pol Pot: "trying to achieve a better society"?

Ow...My soul. Makes me glad I don't wear glasses, we've all heard what happened to people in Cambodia who wore glasses back then.

Ow...Is this true? Did he actually say this?

Pol Pot: "trying to achieve a better society"?

Ow...My soul. Makes me glad I don't wear glasses, we've all heard what happened to people in Cambodia who wore glasses back then.
Hehehehe...I'm sorry everyone, I thought it would be obvious that was a joke...here is the latest REAL news on the subject:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/21/AR2005062101193.html

On Tuesday, Chicago Mayor Richard Daley _ a fellow Democrat _ added his voice to the chorus of criticism, saying, "I think it's a disgrace to say that any man or woman in the military would act like that."
And yet...they did, did they not? Or is it just that they should not be compared to Nazis or Pol Pot? Why not just call them monsters instead, and avoid slandering anyone?

Hehehehe...I'm sorry everyone, I thought it would be obvious that was a joke...here is the latest REAL news on the subject:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/21/AR2005062101193.html

Its a nice apology. The question is, did he ment it?

Frankly I don't care if he did or not. Those statements were 100% over the line and inaccurate.

I am glad that he was a man and apologised wether he ment it or not.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160275,00.html

"More than most people, a senator lives by his words ... occasionally words fail us, occasionally we will fail words," Durbin, D-Ill., said.

"I am sorry if anything I said caused any offense or pain to those who have such bitter memories of the Holocaust, the greatest moral tragedy of our time. Nothing, nothing should ever be said to demean or diminish that moral tragedy.

"I am also sorry if anything I said cast a negative light on our fine men and women in the military ... I never ever intended any disrespect for them. Some may believe that my remarks crossed the line to them I extend my heartfelt apology," Durbin said, choking on his words.

Yes I know its from the fox news website, but so far, its the only news channel I've seen it on.

I'm disappointed he gave in like this, but unsurprised. It's amazing how someone's words can be so twisted. Durbin said that such torture...undisputed, by the way, and read from an FBI report... is more at home in a place like Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany than in a modern democracy. I thought that was pretty clear...but somehow people bent it to mean he was comparing the holocaust to Gitmo? Do they teach reading comprehension in schools anymore?

I'm disappointed he gave in like this, but unsurprised. It's amazing how someone's words can be so twisted.

You can't twist his words Sinuhue. What he said was wrong and he had to apologize for it. No ifs ands or buts.

Durbin said that such torture...undisputed, by the way, and read from an FBI report... is more at home in a place like Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany than in a modern democracy.

And did he show the nation the memo he read from? NO. Not even his follow Senators saw that memo. It was disingenious of him to do that. He got it wrong. Therefore, the apology needed to be done.

I thought that was pretty clear...but somehow people bent it to mean he was comparing the holocaust to Gitmo? Do they teach reading comprehension in schools anymore?

Last time I checked, I read his memo. I don't see how anyone could've twisted his words. The criticism was dead on. Durbin's remarks were not.

"I realize that my comments unjustly slandered many people in southeast Asia and other places who were simply trying to achieve a better society, and did not intend to compare what they did to the horrific atrocities that were occuring, and continue to occur, in Guantanamo. I wish to deeply apologize to those, like International A.N.S.W.E.R, who properly took umbrage at such an odious comparison. I hope that this apology will finally lay this issue to rest."


So he did not apologize to the troops he slandered and continues to slander them? :mad:

I wonder how long it is before people in America start getting arrested for unpatriotic activities. I'm currently reading a novel set in late 1930s Japan. There are parallels, it can't be denied.

I'm disappointed he gave in like this, but unsurprised. It's amazing how someone's words can be so twisted. Durbin said that such torture...undisputed, by the way, and read from an FBI report... is more at home in a place like Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany than in a modern democracy. I thought that was pretty clear...but somehow people bent it to mean he was comparing the holocaust to Gitmo? Do they teach reading comprehension in schools anymore?

Your statements suggest that you haven't read the memo, as the only "torture" documented isn't designated as torture at all: sleep deprivation, loud music, and changes in room temperature do not constitue torture, and they sure as fuck aren't comparable to what went on in Nazi concentration camps, Soviet gulags, and the killing fields of Pol Pot's Cambodia. And no one is accusing him of comparing Gitmo to the Holocaust, but of comparing U.S. soldiers to Nazis, Soviets, and murderers, when there is nothing to draw such a comparison other than Mr. Durbin's personal desire to undermine the war on terror because he, and every other democrat in Washington, are trying their damndest to make sure that history looks unfavorably on the Bush administration.

When Durbin made the Nazi comments, where was Godwin's Law when you needed it?

Ironic that cnn.com doesn't have this on their website yet. Fox News does.

MSNBC doesn't yet
CBSnews doesn't have it yet

Kudos to ABCNEWS: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=869401

Durbin Issues Belated Apology

*snip*

"I realize that my comments unjustly slandered many people in southeast Asia and other places who were simply trying to achieve a better society, and did not intend to compare what they did to the horrific atrocities that were occuring, and continue to occur, in Guantanamo. I wish to deeply apologize to those, like International A.N.S.W.E.R, who properly took umbrage at such an odious comparison. I hope that this apology will finally lay this issue to rest."

Hee! :p

Ah, wouldn't it be wonderful if politicians were allowed to be sarcastic...

Hehehehe...I'm sorry everyone, I thought it would be obvious that was a joke...here is the latest REAL news on the subject:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/21/AR2005062101193.html

Not very funny! How can I trust anything you post in the future when you attempt to start something as volatile as this? I'm angry for two reasons, first you for posting it and secondly for my trusting you to post something truthful. :mad: Oh, I'm also mad at me because I didn't check it out before I posted in reply.

I missed the part where Durbin said "The servicemen at Gitmo are just like the Nazis"

Your statements suggest that you haven't read the memo, as the only "torture" documented isn't designated as torture at all: sleep deprivation, loud music, and changes in room temperature do not constitue torture, and they sure as fuck aren't comparable to what went on in Nazi concentration camps, Soviet gulags, and the killing fields of Pol Pot's Cambodia. And no one is accusing him of comparing Gitmo to the Holocaust, but of comparing U.S. soldiers to Nazis, Soviets, and murderers, when there is nothing to draw such a comparison other than Mr. Durbin's personal desire to undermine the war on terror because he, and every other democrat in Washington, are trying their damndest to make sure that history looks unfavorably on the Bush administration.

But...but....Christina Aguilera music played loud is torture....... :rolleyes:

I don't know about you but if someone pissed on me, I would consider that torture

All in all though I'm glad he apologized for hurting the extreemely sensitive feelbads of those who were unable to take his remarks in context. He didn't say he was wrong for makign comparisons... he was saying that he is sorry for offending those who were offended.

All in all though I'm glad he apologized for hurting the extreemely sensitive feelbads of those who were unable to take his remarks in context.

We put it into context. That was why many of us were outraged with his comments.

He didn't say he was wrong for makign comparisons... he was saying that he is sorry for offending those who were offended.

Which is why this apology is a start to me. He as alot to attone for. Did I hear right for the Press to go down to Gitmo to see for themselve? For members of Congress to go down and see for themselves? Yes I do believe I heard him say that.

Which is why this apology is a start to me. He as alot to attone for. Did I hear right for the Press to go down to Gitmo to see for themselve? For members of Congress to go down and see for themselves? Yes I do believe I heard him say that.

Um...You do realize Gitmo is not exactly open to the public, right? That since the begining of this issue, literally hundreds of news organizations and NGOs have requested access and ALL have been denied, with the sole exception of the Red Cross, who even then has only restricted and partial access?

So...What exactly do you mean by this? The president announced this RADICAL POLICY SHIFT mere days ago. This isn't something that has "been available" and everyone was simply too lazy to bother. Have you no recollection of the past 3 years?

Um...You do realize Gitmo is not exactly open to the public, right? That since the begining of this issue, literally hundreds of news organizations and NGOs have requested access and ALL have been denied, with the sole exception of the Red Cross, who even then has only restricted and partial access?

So...What exactly do you mean by this? The president announced this RADICAL POLICY SHIFT mere days ago. This isn't something that has "been available" and everyone was simply too lazy to bother. Have you no recollection of the past 3 years?

I have a vivid recollection of the last 4 years. What is going on down at Gitmo isn't torture. I'm still waiting for the evidence that its occuring down there but since no one has provided any....

So the bastards won again. Not that they can lose. Bloody whiners.

I don't know about you but if someone pissed on me, I would consider that torture

How about if someone tied you in a "stress position" and left you alone in a freezing room for 18 hours, a period of time in which you urinated and deficated on yourself, and began to pull out your hair...

Everyone, in a few weeks ago a judge ruled that more footage from Abu Ghraib and other facilities has to be released to the public. If these images are released, it will be even more obvious evidence that torture is much more widespread than most conversatives would like us to believe.

Furthermore, with the CIA operating a fleet of secret airplanes to export people to countries notorious for using "torture", and considering the fact that dozens of people have been killed in American custody, and there are credible claims of rapes and beatings by American soldiers, it takes a real idealogue (or a great shameless lair) to claim that our nation does not torture people.

Now, I am doing grad work in German studies, and generally hate it when people use the term "Nazi" as a stock word for all that is evil, but the truth of Senator Durbins comment remains- if you read descriptions of what the US government has done, and did not know it was the US government, you would think it was done by a totaliatarian government.

The US under George W. Bush is a nation that tortures people. It is a nation that has shredded the Geneva Convention, tarnished our image abroad, and made us sink to a level we should never have considered sinking to....

We have lost the moral highground, and are selling our collective soul...

All of this due to 19 guys with box cutters along with an aging Saudi millionare and his one eyed associate, who the Bush adminstration ignored before the attacks, and have been unable to find in the last three and half years....

Anyways, none of this matters to the "made in china" flag waving morons who like the idea of killing "towel heads", think that Bush is a "strong leader" and that our soldiers are fighting for "freedom".

My 2p.

Durbin annoyed The Emperor of Chicago.

The Daley announced that "We are Not Amused" (his son is in Iraq)

Durbin does not wish to become a part of Chicago Lore (or Lake Michigan)

Durbin apologised.

Simple.

Originally Posted by Lawful Men
the killing fields of Pol Pot's Cambodia.

So, umm, when is the USA going to say sorry to Cambodia for placing Pol Pot in power in the first place? Most notably Henry Kissinger (http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/hermansept97.htm)

What is going on down at Gitmo isn't torture. I'm still waiting for the evidence that its occuring down there but since no one has provided any....

Right, so no one has access to Gitmo, thus no one can say for sure what's happening. But there is definately no torture; says you, and the accused. Catch 22.

I don't TRUST you. Nor do I TRUST the government that has been accused. Why on earth DO you trust a government on this? China repeatedly says they don't torture prisoners, do you believe them as well? After all, no one but released prisoners have mentioned anything about torture over there.

I want proof. No one CAN provide any because no one can get access, so "innocent until proven guilty" but how the hell do you get proof if you can't get access? Hmm? Catch 22.

Now, prove to me no torture has occured; you cannot, because you have no access to Gitmo either, nor does any third party source. Catch 22.

My 2p.

Durbin annoyed The Emperor of Chicago.

The Daley announced that "We are Not Amused" (his son is in Iraq)

Durbin does not wish to become a part of Chicago Lore (or Lake Michigan)

Durbin apologised.

Simple.

Sounds reasonable.

Senator Durbin was right to apologize. I'm sorry, but there is absolutely NO comparison between pieces of shit like the Nazis, who killed over 6 million innocent people, and coercively interrogating terrorists. These Senators are merely trying to make the U.S. soldiers look bad. While things going on down there aren't exactly nice, there's no connection. I admire Durbin for having enough balls to step up and admit he was wrong.

Senator Durbin was right to apologize. I'm sorry, but there is absolutely NO comparison between pieces of shit like the Nazis, who killed over 6 million innocent people, and coercively interrogating terrorists. These Senators are merely trying to make the U.S. soldiers look bad. While things going on down there aren't exactly nice, there's no connection. I admire Durbin for having enough balls to step up and admit he was wrong.

I'm disgusted because he didn't stand by his statements. He made a alid point but Godwin was invoked and the screams were audible even here.

Senator Durbin was right to apologize. I'm sorry, but there is absolutely NO comparison between pieces of shit like the Nazis, who killed over 6 million innocent people, and coercively interrogating terrorists. These Senators are merely trying to make the U.S. soldiers look bad. While things going on down there aren't exactly nice, there's no connection. I admire Durbin for having enough balls to step up and admit he was wrong.

No, they are not directly comparable. However, and I think this is the point he was trying to make, if you heard 'They used sleep depravation, extreme temperature changes, and...' well, whatever the other stuff was, and were told that it was /either/ describing the United States or Nazi Germany, you would be more likely to assume it was the latter. That's what I saw in his original comment. Apparently other people saw something different. That's freedom of thought.

Another Blunder for the embattled Democrats. When is the Democrats going to learn to watch what they say? This Apology is weak to say the least. How should this foot in mouth Senator be punished?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/06/21/guantanamo.durbin/index.html

Although I bet Newsweek has offered him a job if he loses his Senate seat.

There's already a thread on this.

By the way, what he said really wasn't that bad. Saying that torture of detainees is more reminiscent of a police state than "the arsenal of freeedom" makes a lot of sense.

Right, so no one has access to Gitmo, thus no one can say for sure what's happening. But there is definately no torture; says you, and the accused. Catch 22.

I don't TRUST you. Nor do I TRUST the government that has been accused. Why on earth DO you trust a government on this? China repeatedly says they don't torture prisoners, do you believe them as well? After all, no one but released prisoners have mentioned anything about torture over there.

I want proof. No one CAN provide any because no one can get access, so "innocent until proven guilty" but how the hell do you get proof if you can't get access? Hmm? Catch 22.

Now, prove to me no torture has occured; you cannot, because you have no access to Gitmo either, nor does any third party source. Catch 22.
Bug meets windshield headon, with usual results.

I'm disappointed he gave in like this, but unsurprised. It's amazing how someone's words can be so twisted. Durbin said that such torture...undisputed, by the way, and read from an FBI report... is more at home in a place like Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany than in a modern democracy. I thought that was pretty clear...but somehow people bent it to mean he was comparing the holocaust to Gitmo? Do they teach reading comprehension in schools anymore?
Hear hear. And I absolutely love how the right wing has decided to openly embrace torture now. Powerline blog, which Time magazine called Blog of the Year, is selling shirts that say "I love Gitmo" and not to be outdone, Rush Limbaugh is now selling t-shirts that say "What happens in Gitmo stays in Gitmo."

By the way, where's all the outrage over Limbaugh's use--for at least the last ten years--of "feminazi"? There are feminists in the armed forces, after all--does that mean that Rush thinks that some members of our armed forces are Nazis? He's a fucking hypocrite and a gasbag, and if anything, Durbin was too kind to those asshats who support torture.

with the sole exception of the Red Cross, who even then has only restricted and partial access?

Actually, they had unrestricted access until they went and blabbed about something that both parties had agreed on as classified and had nothing to do with any sort of torture. After that much of their access was revoked.

Hear hear. And I absolutely love how the right wing has decided to openly embrace torture now. Powerline blog, which Time magazine called Blog of the Year, is selling shirts that say "I love Gitmo" and not to be outdone, Rush Limbaugh is now selling t-shirts that say "What happens in Gitmo stays in Gitmo."

By the way, where's all the outrage over Limbaugh's use--for at least the last ten years--of "feminazi"? There are feminists in the armed forces, after all--does that mean that Rush thinks that some members of our armed forces are Nazis? He's a fucking hypocrite and a gasbag, and if anything, Durbin was too kind to those asshats who support torture.
As to the first, the power of pissing off your political enemies is a powerful tool. As to Rush, I think he's an ass so you'll get no complaint from me if you want to make fun of him.

This whole brouhaha basically boils down to Durbin challenging the Bushevik Myth of "It's only torture if the prisoner bleeds and dies."

I don't see this as an apology as much as a coerced retraction, much like the one that Newsweek was subject to.

Another Blunder for the embattled Democrats. When is the Democrats going to learn to watch what they say? This Apology is weak to say the least. How should this foot in mouth Senator be punished?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/06/21/guantanamo.durbin/index.html

Although I bet Newsweek has offered him a job if he loses his Senate seat.

I agree that this apology is weak and I"m glad that CNN finally posted the apology. He should be punished by giving up his post in the US Senate. He should no longer be the 2nd most powerful democrat in the US Senate.

Right, so no one has access to Gitmo, thus no one can say for sure what's happening. But there is definately no torture; says you, and the accused. Catch 22.

The Red Cross did till they stated unfounded allegations. The job of the Red Cross is to PROVE that there was mistreatment and report the mistreatment. However, they reported allegations of mistreatment. There is a difference. No catch 22 here.

I don't TRUST you.

Why doesn't this surprise me?

Nor do I TRUST the government that has been accused. Why on earth DO you trust a government on this?

Simple reason being that I haven't seen substantial proof to the contrary! Stress positions is not torture! Extreme Temperature isn't torture. If it is, then we have to bring Mother Nature up on Human Rights violations. I hate it when the temperature is 80 one day down to 50 the next then back up to 80 the third day. Sleep deprivation is also not torture. If it is, then every basic training is guilty of it. Pissing on oneself (since that was what durbin stated) is again, not torture. Just disgusting.

China repeatedly says they don't torture prisoners, do you believe them as well?

Hell no of course I don't believe China. China is a massive abuser of human rights.

After all, no one but released prisoners have mentioned anything about torture over there.

And the terrorists have a handbook regarding this. And yes, we have captured said handbook in Afghanistan.

I want proof. No one CAN provide any because no one can get access, so "innocent until proven guilty" but how the hell do you get proof if you can't get access? Hmm? Catch 22.

The red cross did till they reported allegations and not actual cases of mistreatment. :rolleyes:

Now, prove to me no torture has occured; you cannot, because you have no access to Gitmo either, nor does any third party source. Catch 22.

Sleep deprivation: Not torture
Extreme Temperature: Not Torture
Loud Music: Not torture
Barny Song (they did use this too): Not torture (though that can be debated later)
Stress Positions: Not Torture

I think that covers just about everything that Durbin stated.

As to the first, the power of pissing off your political enemies is a powerful tool.

That's what flag burnings are all about :D

That's what flag burnings are all about :D

That's a seperate thread. Lovfro.

That's a seperate thread. Lovfro.

I know, sorry. *looks ashamed*

I won't threadjack

I know, sorry. *looks ashamed*

I won't threadjack

Thank you :)

Back to topic of my thread: Durbin Apologized and its about time he did so too. He reported allegations and nothing factual. That's unbecoming of a US Senator and he needs to be removed from his position of power. He's not doing the Democrats any favors with his statements but the apology is a good start to making amends.

Sleep deprivation: Not torture

Forced hallucination and possible permanent mental damage? If you would like, we can conduct an experiment where you are kept up for a period exceeding 120 hours. We can debate whether it is torture or not then.


Extreme Temperature: Not Torture

There have been cases where people died from extreme heat exposure. Particularly during heat waves. Also, there are cases where people have died from extreme cold. If you were placed in a place where temperatures were below 30C without appropriate clothing, you would die of exposure relatively soon. Also, if you were exposed to 50-60C temperatures, you would also die from your brain overheating, which I believe is the secondary cause of heat death other than stroke.

Regulating the temperatures so that you are always close to death, but not dead, can easily be considered to be torture. Or just plain sadism if you desire.

Loud Music: Not torture
Barny Song (they did use this too): Not torture (though that can be debated later)

If used in conjunction with the first point, it is an accessory.

Stress Positions: Not Torture

I do not know exactly what is meant by this, but I will assume it to mean a position not conducive to your comfort. Using this reasoning, the simplest I can think of is suspending someone upside down. Do I have to explain what happens to the blood flow?

All very unpleasant really. And I can certainly state that it is not something designed to be conducive for your own well-being.

If Gitmo, as the abbreviation seems to be popular, is really an interrogation camp, then it stands to reason that the treatment of the prisoners would be designed to break them down both mentally and physically, thus ensuring complete compliance with their captor's desires.

And that in itself will definitely involve severe stress on the captive, both physically and mentally. If you believe that torture is something else, then you have been obviously misinformed.

Certainly, I feel you will ask me to provide proof of these activities, just like you have others. But if I am not mistaken, Cheney was quoted as saying "Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack." As such, I can equally place the burden on you to provide the proof of lack.

So long as the doors remain closed and no access is provided, neither side will be able to claim proven moral highground. That, is undeniable.

Forced hallucination and possible permanent mental damage?

? Dude, yes sleep deprivation causes hallucinations and possible permanent mental damage. Go to any military basic training set up. There's sleep deprivation there. Sleep deprivation at Universities too. Should we call that torture too while we're at it? Sleep deprivation is not torture. :rolleyes:

If you would like, we can conduct an experiment where you are kept up for a period exceeding 120 hours. We can debate whether it is torture or not then.

Has it been proven that they've been up for 120 hours straight or is that just another allegation with no proof behind it?

[quote]There have been cases where people died from extreme heat exposure.Particularly during heat waves.

OMG! We need to bring Mother nature up on Torture charges :eek: She's torturing us! Give me a break.

Also, there are cases where people have died from extreme cold. If you were placed in a place where temperatures were below 30C without appropriate clothing, you would die of exposure relatively soon.

See previous statement.

Also, if you were exposed to 50-60C temperatures, you would also die from your brain overheating, which I believe is the secondary cause of heat death other than stroke.

See first statement.

Regulating the temperatures so that you are always close to death, but not dead, can easily be considered to be torture. Or just plain sadism if you desire.

And yet EVERY INTEL agency uses temperature deviation. It isn't torture no matter how much you try to spin it. :rolleyes:

If used in conjunction with the first point, it is an accessory.

Loud music still isn't torture.

[quote]I do not know exactly what is meant by this, but I will assume it to mean a position not conducive to your comfort. Using this reasoning, the simplest I can think of is suspending someone upside down. Do I have to explain what happens to the blood flow?

Can you show me proof that we've hunged these people up upside down?

All very unpleasant really. And I can certainly state that it is not something designed to be conducive for your own well-being.

True but then again, no one has claimed that they were held upside down.

If Gitmo, as the abbreviation seems to be popular, is really an interrogation camp, then it stands to reason that the treatment of the prisoners would be designed to break them down both mentally and physically, thus ensuring complete compliance with their captor's desires.

Correct and they are using standard operating tactics that every intel agency uses. Extreme Temperatures, obnoxious music. Stress positions. All standard and not torture.

And that in itself will definitely involve severe stress on the captive, both physically and mentally. If you believe that torture is something else, then you have been obviously misinformed.

In that case, lets bring the whole human race on Human rights charges. Bosses work their people to death, universities give students more work so they get no sleep because they are up all night writing papers and studying for tests (those that actually do school work like me) Basic training then needs to be banned because they go through sleep deprivation as well. Mother Nature needs to be taken into custody (good luck find her) for the extreme temperatures she puts our planet through. :rolleyes:

Certainly, I feel you will ask me to provide proof of these activities, just like you have others. But if I am not mistaken, Cheney was quoted as saying "Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack." As such, I can equally place the burden on you to provide the proof of lack.

:rolleyes: Just going by standard methods of getting information out. You do know that the Brits use the same techniques? The French? yes they do the same too. :rolleyes:

So long as the doors remain closed and no access is provided, neither side will be able to claim proven moral highground. That, is undeniable.

The Red Cross had access till they reported allegations to the press and not telling the truth to the United States Government. Allegations aren't truth. They haven't proved their allegations.

What a pussy. I guess he is learning to recant like every other 'strong leader' we run into nowadays. Not like he would have made it past the primaries (Durbin..... who?) anayway.

Oh, man, this thread is laughable. :p

Some people just don't get it, do they, Corneliu?

Oh, man, this thread is laughable. :p

Some people just don't get it, do they, Corneliu?

No they don't. I especially like the fact that people consider extreme temperature on prisoners torture. That is laughable because I go through extreme temperature shifts ever single season. One minute 90 the next 50 followed by 80. Its more prevelant with a very strong cold front. If its torture, then mother nature needs to be brought up before the ICC! :D

Anyway, the stuff described by Senator Durbin is used by intel agencies the world over. Some nations take it further that really is torture but most of the civilized world only keep it to the points described above.

I am glad that Durbin apologized. Now all that needs to be done now is for him to step down as the 2nd most powerful Dem in the Senate. I doubt that is going to happen though.

I'm quite happy that Durbin shot himself in the foot. The "apology" he gave is meaningless weaseling.

Watch him not get re-elected. They'll play that tape of his rant over and over again - and it will be the end of his career whether he resigns or not.

I'm quite happy that Durbin shot himself in the foot. The "apology" he gave is meaningless weaseling.

Watch him not get re-elected. They'll play that tape of his rant over and over again - and it will be the end of his career whether he resigns or not.

So very true. Will it be a republican that wins or will it be another democrat? That is the question.

So very true. Will it be a republican that wins or will it be another democrat? That is the question.

If Durbin runs, and wins his primary (if it's contested), then he loses and a Republican wins.

If the Democratic Party in his state has half a brain, they'll tell him not to run at all. In which case the seat stays Democrat.

I really don't care who replaces him - he's a "Dick" who has stepped on his "Dick" big time.

Durbin Issues Belated Apology

WASHINGTON (APUPI) Amidst growing outrage at his comparisons of US troops to Pol Pot's regime, Nazis and Stalin's Gulag, Illinois Senator Richard Durbin backed off from his earlier comments today, reading from a prepared statement outside his office that he hadn't meant to directly compare the situations:

"I realize that my comments unjustly slandered many people in southeast Asia and other places who were simply trying to achieve a better society, and did not intend to compare what they did to the horrific atrocities that were occuring, and continue to occur, in Guantanamo. I wish to deeply apologize to those, like International A.N.S.W.E.R, who properly took umbrage at such an odious comparison. I hope that this apology will finally lay this issue to rest."

He refused to take any further questions.
Which is to say, no apology at all. I fully intend to make as large a contribution as I can to the defeat of this asshole in the next election in which he has to run, regardless of who his opponent is.

Which is to say, no apology at all. I fully intend to make as large a contribution as I can to the defeat of this asshole in the next election in which he has to run, regardless of who his opponent is.

Eutrusca, that was a joke post! Don't worry, most of us were taken in.

Eutrusca, that was a joke post! Don't worry, most of us were taken in.
Uh ... say what??? :confused:

Joke Post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9109996&postcount=3)

Real Apology (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160275,00.html)

"More than most people, a senator lives by his words ... occasionally words fail us, occasionally we will fail words," Durbin, D-Ill., said.

"I am sorry if anything I said caused any offense or pain to those who have such bitter memories of the Holocaust, the greatest moral tragedy of our time. Nothing, nothing should ever be said to demean or diminish that moral tragedy.

"I am also sorry if anything I said cast a negative light on our fine men and women in the military ... I never ever intended any disrespect for them. Some may believe that my remarks crossed the line to them I extend my heartfelt apology," Durbin said, choking on his words.

Also notice the dates. The first said the 17th of June. This appology came yesterday the 21st of June.

Joke Post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9109996&postcount=3)

Real Apology (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160275,00.html)

Also notice the dates. The first said the 17th of June. This appology came yesterday the 21st of June.

I don't buy his apology, no matter what he said.

There are two unforgivable offenses in my mind.

Harmful words (you can't take back the damage that was done).

Murder (the victim can hardly forgive you).

I don't buy his apology, no matter what he said.

There are two unforgivable offenses in my mind.

Harmful words (you can't take back the damage that was done).

Murder (the victim can hardly forgive you).

I agree with you 100%. I was just clarifying things up is all :)

I wonder how long it is before people in America start getting arrested for unpatriotic activities. I'm currently reading a novel set in late 1930s Japan. There are parallels, it can't be denied.

Actually there are similar activities in the United States when the Kansas-Nebraska act was passed leaving it up to the states/territories to decide on slavery themselves. This opened a flood gate to populate Kansas as quickly as possible by both sides. They went so far as to set up their own governments and started arresting opposing newspaper editors for treason. Different charge but very same thing.

Liverbreath']Actually there are similar activities in the United States when the Kansas-Nebraska act was passed leaving it up to the states/territories to decide on slavery themselves. This opened a flood gate to populate Kansas as quickly as possible by both sides. They went so far as to set up their own governments and started arresting opposing newspaper editors for treason. Different charge but very same thing.

And it cost President James Buchanan (D-PA) his re-election. Congress rejected the treaty that Kansas passed too. Kansas then became a state in 1861 on Janurary 29th.

Which is to say, no apology at all. I fully intend to make as large a contribution as I can to the defeat of this asshole in the next election in which he has to run, regardless of who his opponent is.
Quick question--were you this outraged over the bullshit apology in the thread about the Marine General who apologized to Muslims, that apology which basically consisted him saying "I'm sorry you suck?" I mean, you obviously got suckered here, which is to say that you're automatically willing to buy into every negative stereotype about Democrats that exists, and that says something about your lack of judgment, but even if Durbin had said something similar, wouldn't it be similar to what that Marine General said, and if so, shouldn't one be equally outraged at both? Or are you just acting hypocritically?

Quick question--were you this outraged over the bullshit apology in the thread about the Marine General who apologized to Muslims, that apology which basically consisted him saying "I'm sorry you suck?" I mean, you obviously got suckered here, which is to say that you're automatically willing to buy into every negative stereotype about Democrats that exists, and that says something about your lack of judgment, but even if Durbin had said something similar, wouldn't it be similar to what that Marine General said, and if so, shouldn't one be equally outraged at both? Or are you just acting hypocritically?

I'm not outraged over the General, and I am outraged over Durbin, no matter what apology he gives.

That's not hypocritical, BTW.

I'm not outraged over the General, and I am outraged over Durbin, no matter what apology he gives.

That's not hypocritical, BTW.

Since I have read the General's letter (Though haven't commented on it) I find that letter to be accurate. Durbins comments weren't accurate and therefor, deserved to be criticized.

Your right that Durbin's comments are unforgivable. Eut, do all you can to help defeat him.

Quick question--were you this outraged over the bullshit apology in the thread about the Marine General who apologized to Muslims, that apology which basically consisted him saying "I'm sorry you suck?" I mean, you obviously got suckered here, which is to say that you're automatically willing to buy into every negative stereotype about Democrats that exists, and that says something about your lack of judgment, but even if Durbin had said something similar, wouldn't it be similar to what that Marine General said, and if so, shouldn't one be equally outraged at both? Or are you just acting hypocritically?
This is the last time I'm going to discuss this issue, since I have already done so repeatedly. I have admitted that I have a blind spot where the US military is concerned. If this bothers you, then you are always free to ignore my posts on the subject. There are many others who function as apologists for terrorists and I will leave that topic in their capable hands.

Your conclusions about my "acting hypocritically" are your own and I'm certain that nothing I can say will dissuade you from them.

EDIT: BTW ... I apologize for the fact that you suck. :D

I'm not outraged over the General, and I am outraged over Durbin, no matter what apology he gives.

That's not hypocritical, BTW.Sure it is, because whether you want to admit it or not, what Durbin said was valid. Look at his words, and toss the filter that the right-wing has been screaming about it through, and tell me honestly that you think Durbin was saying that our military was as bad as the Nazis. You can't do it, because that's not what he said.

What Durbin said was that if you read specific examples of the treatment of prisoners in Gitmo, and there was no context, you would assume that you were reading descriptions of prisoner treatment under despotic regimes of the past. Why? Because that's what has happened under those regimes. Sure, it's happened on a far greater scale elsewhere, but the actions are the same, no matter how you try to parse it otherwise.

The problem isn't that there's no difference between the Bush administration and Nazi Germany--of course there's a difference. I dislike Bush as much as anyone, but I know that Bush isn't in Hitler's league and would never suggest he is.

No, the problem is that we're not different enough. If we're going to tell the world that we're moral leaders, then damnit, we've got to act like it, and that means we don't fucking chain people hand and foot for 24 hours and force them to shit themselves, and if you can't see that, Eutrusca, then you've gone so far afield that you may be beyond hope.

I don't TRUST you. Nor do I TRUST the government that has been accused. Why on earth DO you trust a government on this?

Quite frankly for several reason starting with the fact that the press has proven time and time again to have an agenda other than the best interest of the United States or the people it is constitutionally bound to protect.
Also, because large blocks of major U.S. Networks are owned by semi private French, Saudi and other anti american interests.
Also because leftist organizations that claim to be and were formerly thought to be independent are in fact not. Thanks to the patriot act we now have the ability to track the origions of their funding which they do not like even a little bit. Once found out, their past tatics of subtle sabatoge cannot be utilized because they cannot get access. Their only choice is to make wild accusations and hope to enrage their already indroctrinated believers. Get plenty of air time and hope to enlist as many well intentioned but naive activists to do their bidding. Use easily corruptable political opponents, diplomats and business interests to legitimize their cause.
Also, because I was a member of the US military and was in a postion to know exactly how these operations work and how they do not.

Actually, I could go on and on, but, realist that I am, it wouldn't make a difference, your mind is made up. Truth doesnt really matter to the left in these matters.

? Dude, yes sleep deprivation causes hallucinations and possible permanent mental damage. Go to any military basic training set up. There's sleep deprivation there. Sleep deprivation at Universities too. Should we call that torture too while we're at it? Sleep deprivation is not torture. :rolleyes:


First and foremost, there is a difference between self inflicted damage and damage inflicted by other parties. In a university, that would be self-inflicted. As in the case of basic military training, it is not even on the same level.

It would be much like if I bumped into you on the street corner while walking compared to if I had hit you at 120kph with a car. Or if you wish something closer to home, a tap on the shoulder compared to bludgeoning you with a baseball bat. As for the demand of proof statement, see below.

Has it been proven that they've been up for 120 hours straight or is that just another allegation with no proof behind it?

On the converse side, I could ask you to prove that they are not. You see, I can ask you to prove your side. Lack of proof is not proof of lack. If the US policy can use it then I certainly could without having to worry about it being complained about. Of course that opens up a can of worms which allows equal recriminations against me, but that's precedent ne?


OMG! We need to bring Mother nature up on Torture charges :eek: She's torturing us! Give me a break.

Incorrect. If you wish to say it is so, then Saddam did not have biological weapons at all, or chemical weapons. He was simply encouraging nature to do its job. And since mother nature also gives us electricity in the form of lightning, then cases of people being persecuted for electrocution torture should be free, since they are only doing what mother nature does when a lightning bolt strikes.

Fire too is a result of nature in some cases. So if we were to burn people alive in a slow flame, it is not torture either?

See? Your argument, when taken to the logical extreme, has no basis for use against common torture acceptance techniques.


See previous statement.

See mine.



See first statement.

Rebutted.



And yet EVERY INTEL agency uses temperature deviation. It isn't torture no matter how much you try to spin it. :rolleyes:

Since you call on me to provide proof. I must hereby call on YOU to provide proof for that general statement. And it must cover EVERY SINGLE Intelligence agency.


Can you show me proof that we've hunged these people up upside down?

Can you show me proof that they were not? But this point is moot. Neither of us can prove or disprove it.


Correct and they are using standard operating tactics that every intel agency uses. Extreme Temperatures, obnoxious music. Stress positions. All standard and not torture.

Once again, I must ask you to prove this. Otherwise it is nothing more than baseless slander.



In that case, lets bring the whole human race on Human rights charges. Bosses work their people to death, universities give students more work so they get no sleep because they are up all night writing papers and studying for tests (those that actually do school work like me) Basic training then needs to be banned because they go through sleep deprivation as well. Mother Nature needs to be taken into custody (good luck find her) for the extreme temperatures she puts our planet through. :rolleyes:

1st Case: Bosses
Under the understanding of laissez faire, they offer compensation for work done. The common response to such issues seems to be either find a new workplace (or country if your problem is national policy by certain neo-conservative hardliners). In which case, the argument of freedom of choice applies.

Recipients of torture, as a rule, do not have a choice in terms of going elsewhere.

2nd Case: Universities

The response here is a slight variation, but nevertheless, somewhat similar to the first case. Time management. Your choice.

3rd Case: Mother Nature

The silliness of this argument has been rebutted above.


:rolleyes: Just going by standard methods of getting information out. You do know that the Brits use the same techniques? The French? yes they do the same too. :rolleyes:

By that same logic, if Saddam gases his neighbors, and Iran did so too, apparently with US support (silence or otherwise), then by that reasoning, I should be able to do so too.

America used nuclear arms in a war 60 years ago. Should that set a precedent where anyone can use them wherever they like so long as they are at war? If so, I predict that Chechnya will become a lot more radioactive very soon.


The Red Cross had access till they reported allegations to the press and not telling the truth to the United States Government. Allegations aren't truth. They haven't proved their allegations.

And how curious that since these allegations were brought to light, no independent party has been brought in to debunk them? Just denials you notice?

No, the problem is that we're not different enough. If we're going to tell the world that we're moral leaders, then damnit, we've got to act like it, and that means we don't fucking chain people hand and foot for 24 hours and force them to shit themselves, and if you can't see that, Eutrusca, then you've gone so far afield that you may be beyond hope.
You forget that we're in a war to the knife. A matter of survival of civilizations - a war that was declared by their side for years before we were even aware they were at war with us. A war which they have stated will have no quarter, no surrender, no negotiations, no parley, and no compromise. The goal of their war is to annihilate the US as a people and to destroy Western Civilization and replace it with the Caliphate.

They don't take prisoners. Not even before Gitmo. They kill anyone they can, preferably civilians, by any means necessary.

I would be surprised if they weren't using a combination of Versed and methamphetamine. It gets anyone to talk, and they don't remember what they said, so they can't consistently lie. Do a few sessions like that, tape the talking, and you can cross reference their answers with everyone else's.

Later, you can come back to them and thank them for their cooperation, and play bits of their talk back that you've determined are truthful. It's far more demoralizing than being chained to the floor or physically tortured in any way. That's probably why some of the Gitmo people have tried to kill themselves - they realize that they sold out their cause without knowing it and without getting a mark on their bodies.

You forget that we're in a war to the knife. A matter of survival of civilizations - a war that was declared by their side for years before we were even aware they were at war with us. A war which they have stated will have no quarter, no surrender, no negotiations, no parley, and no compromise. The goal of their war is to annihilate the US as a people and to destroy Western Civilization and replace it with the Caliphate.

They don't take prisoners. Not even before Gitmo. They kill anyone they can, preferably civilians, by any means necessary.

I would be surprised if they weren't using a combination of Versed and methamphetamine. It gets anyone to talk, and they don't remember what they said, so they can't consistently lie. Do a few sessions like that, tape the talking, and you can cross reference their answers with everyone else's.

Later, you can come back to them and thank them for their cooperation, and play bits of their talk back that you've determined are truthful. It's far more demoralizing than being chained to the floor or physically tortured in any way. That's probably why some of the Gitmo people have tried to kill themselves - they realize that they sold out their cause without knowing it and without getting a mark on their bodies.First off, your description is complete and utter bullshit, and anyone with a rudementary knowledge of history knows it to be the case.

But more importantly, what good does it do us to become monsters if what we're claming to fight is monstrous? We become what we claim to hate. In short, if we take on their tactics, we become them, and they win. We cannot become our enemy and hope to keep the moral high ground. Al Qaeda is no threat to the military or economic power of the US, and they never will be as long as we don't stoop to their level. Their power over us is based on the fact that when they've depicted us as monsters, we've aided them by acting as monsters. That's the real problem--we keep giving them ammunition.

First off, your description is complete and utter bullshit, and anyone with a rudementary knowledge of history knows it to be the case.


It's not bullshit.

Osama has written quite a bit in Arabic that is lifted directly from the works of Zangi. Since 1993, he definitely believes this is a war of annihilation, and that there will be no quarter, no surrender, no negotiation, etc.

First and foremost, there is a difference between self inflicted damage and damage inflicted by other parties. In a university, that would be self-inflicted.

Apparently, its been awhile since you've been at a university.

As in the case of basic military training, it is not even on the same level.

Apparently you never gone through Basic Training either. :rolleyes:

On the converse side, I could ask you to prove that they are not. You see, I can ask you to prove your side. Lack of proof is not proof of lack. If the US policy can use it then I certainly could without having to worry about it being complained about. Of course that opens up a can of worms which allows equal recriminations against me, but that's precedent ne?

We could ask eachother this all day long. Since all we have here is allegations and not proof. Allegations can't be considered truth until proven true. The first rule of journalism is that you investigate the allegations. You do not report allegations unless they are proven true. That journalism ethics. Those that report allegations have violated journalism ethics.

Incorrect. If you wish to say it is so, then Saddam did not have biological weapons at all, or chemical weapons. He was simply encouraging nature to do its job.

By using chemical weapons in the late 80s? :rolleyes:

And since mother nature also gives us electricity in the form of lightning, then cases of people being persecuted for electrocution torture should be free, since they are only doing what mother nature does when a lightning bolt strikes.

You have a problem here. Its called artificial electricution compared to that that happens naturally. Therefore, my point still holds.

Fire too is a result of nature in some cases. So if we were to burn people alive in a slow flame, it is not torture either?

That is actually torture if done diliberately.

See? Your argument, when taken to the logical extreme, has no basis for use against common torture acceptance techniques.

Except I know the difference between those that occur naturally and those that are done artificially. You've tried to use the reverse of what I just said but you just literally proved my point which was not your intention.

See mine.

See mine

Rebutted.

Nope!

Since you call on me to provide proof. I must hereby call on YOU to provide proof for that general statement. And it must cover EVERY SINGLE Intelligence agency.

You must provide the proof first. :rolleyes:

Can you show me proof that they were not? But this point is moot. Neither of us can prove or disprove it.

First correct statement you've said all day.

Once again, I must ask you to prove this. Otherwise it is nothing more than baseless slander.

I think someone needs to look up the word slander in the dictionary.

1st Case: Bosses
Under the understanding of laissez faire, they offer compensation for work done. The common response to such issues seems to be either find a new workplace (or country if your problem is national policy by certain neo-conservative hardliners). In which case, the argument of freedom of choice applies.

You don't work do you? All work places are tortureous.

Recipients of torture, as a rule, do not have a choice in terms of going elsewhere.

And are we conducting torture at Gitmo? Nope. Haven't seen it yet.

2nd Case: Universities

The response here is a slight variation, but nevertheless, somewhat similar to the first case. Time management. Your choice.

Again, its been awhile since you've been in school hasn't it? Its not necessarily the student's choice either. Its rare that I'm up till 200 AM by choice.

3rd Case: Mother Nature

The silliness of this argument has been rebutted above.

Bull!

By that same logic, if Saddam gases his neighbors, and Iran did so too, apparently with US support (silence or otherwise), then by that reasoning, I should be able to do so too.

Try it and see what happens.

America used nuclear arms in a war 60 years ago. Should that set a precedent where anyone can use them wherever they like so long as they are at war? If so, I predict that Chechnya will become a lot more radioactive very soon.

And look at why we used them too. It was to save the lives of millions of Japanese and Chinese not to mention hundreds of thousands of American lives.

And how curious that since these allegations were brought to light, no independent party has been brought in to debunk them? Just denials you notice?

Isn't it interesting to note that a report of an allegation is a violation of Proper journalism ethics? Isn't it interesting also to note that reporting an alegation doesn't make the allegation true either?

BTW: You just missed the whole point of my post! So much for reading comprehension.

He only said, "I'm sorry if I've offended anyone." He never said, "I regret doing what I did and wish I could take it back." Apparently he still means what he said. He's not admitting to doing anything wrong. That, my friends, is no apology at all.

Senator Durban's speechwriters wrote this, he approved it, read it, entered it into the Senate official record, defended his accusations for TWO WEEKS.

Yesterday he was concerned he offended some people. Hardly believable.

Senator Durban's speechwriters wrote this, he approved it, read it, entered it into the Senate official record, defended his accusations for TWO WEEKS.

Yesterday he was concerned he offended some people. Hardly believable.

It's just ass-covering double-speak. He would have never "apologized" if his fellow Democrats had stood to defend his statements.

I watched him cry like a baby on CSPAN. If I was his opponent in the next election, I would play bits of his original speech and the crying part alternately - he comes off as an arrogant wuss.

It's just ass-covering double-speak. He would have never "apologized" if his fellow Democrats had stood to defend his statements.

I watched him cry like a baby on CSPAN. If I was his opponent in the next election, I would play bits of his original speech and the crying part alternately - he comes off as an arrogant wuss.

His political career is pretty much over thanks to this incident.

Your statements suggest that you haven't read the memo, as the only "torture" documented isn't designated as torture at all: sleep deprivation, loud music, and changes in room temperature do not constitue torture,
You know what? I'd like to hear you say the same thing when someone does this to an American soldier.

"It's okay...it's not torture...we're tough..." :rolleyes:

Not very funny! How can I trust anything you post in the future when you attempt to start something as volatile as this? I'm angry for two reasons, first you for posting it and secondly for my trusting you to post something truthful. :mad: Oh, I'm also mad at me because I didn't check it out before I posted in reply.
Oh COME ON. I read it and just about lost an eye because it was bulging so far...before I realised that it couldn't possibly be true. How can I trust YOU if you don't have the power to figure out something so obvious on your own? My goodness. Take ownership of your cognitive skills and USE THEM! ;)

All in all though I'm glad he apologized for hurting the extreemely sensitive feelbads of those who were unable to take his remarks in context. He didn't say he was wrong for makign comparisons... he was saying that he is sorry for offending those who were offended.
True...I guess I'm okay with that. We should just have that sort of statement at the end of everything we every say...


This statement was not meant to hurt the feelings of anyone who may have misinterpreted it, but if in fact anyone is offended, I apologise for the fact that they managed to find offense where none was given, so help me god, amen.

We put it into context. That was why many of us were outraged with his comments.



You put ANYTHING into a context, and it can say whatever you want it to. And that is what you did. You found offense exactly where you hoped it would be.

You put ANYTHING into a context, and it can say whatever you want it to. And that is what you did. You found offense exactly where you hoped it would be.

What Durbin said was reprehensible. It was also totally unfounded and what he described wasn't torture. :rolleyes:

What Durbin said was reprehensible. It was also totally unfounded and what he described wasn't torture. :rolleyes:
Yeah, we're pretty clear on the point that you don't consider it torture.

If someone did it to your dear old Gran, you'd be singing a different tune. If this was the worse that was routinely done to captured American soldiers, you'd be outraged. It's not torture simply because YOUR COUNTRY IS DOING IT. So forgive me if I don't buy your particular version of what is, and what is not, torture.

Yeah, we're pretty clear on the point that you don't consider it torture.

Extreme Temperature isn't Torture
Loud music isn't considered torture
Stress positions isn't considered torture
Peeing on yourself isn't even torture either.
Being chained isn't even torture.

Now that we have that out of the way, what type of torture is going on down there?

one did it to your dear old Gran, you'd be singing a different tune.

My grandfather is 80 years old and a former Fire chief :rolleyes:

[quote]If this was the worse that was routinely done to captured American soldiers, you'd be outraged.

However, this is actually legal.

Use of Extreme Temperature: Legal
Use of Loud Music: Legal
Use of Stress Positions: Legal

It's not torture simply because YOUR COUNTRY IS DOING IT. So forgive me if I don't buy your particular version of what is, and what is not, torture.

Forgive me if I don't buy your particular version of what is, and what is not, torture.

Torture is the infliction of severe physical or psychological pain as an expression of cruelty, a means of intimidation, deterrent or punishment, or as a tool for the extraction of information or confessions.
Torture is an extreme violation of human rights. Signatories of the Third Geneva Convention and Fourth Geneva Convention agree not to torture protected persons (enemy civilians and POWs) in armed conflicts, and signatories of the UN Convention Against Torture agree to not intentionally inflict severe pain or suffering on anyone, to obtain information or a confession, to punish them, or to coerce them or a third person. These conventions and agreements notwithstanding, it is estimated by organisations such as Amnesty International that around 2/3 of countries do not consistently abide by the spirit of such treaties. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture


Definitions of torture:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=defmore&q=define:torture][/url]
• anguish: extreme mental distress
• unbearable physical pain
• agony: intense feelings of suffering; acute mental or physical pain; "an agony of doubt"; "the torments of the damned"
• torment: torment emotionally or mentally
• distortion: the act of distorting something so it seems to mean something it was not intended to mean

Torture is the infliction of severe physical or psychological pain as an expression of cruelty, a means of intimidation, deterent or punishment, or as a tool for the extraction of information or confessions. Sometimes torture is practiced even when it appears to have little or no functional purpose beyond the gratification of the torturer or because it has become the norm within the context.

Main Entry: 1tor•ture

1 a : anguish of body or mind : AGONY b : something that causes agony or pain
2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
3 : distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument

1. I don't fully trust everything that Wikipedia has.

2. If we follow your definitions then we must ban everything because anything can be considered torture. :rolleyes: Not to mention we have to arrest mother nature as well.

Forms of torture used in Gitmo, and their effects:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation

Sensory deprivation is the deliberate reduction or removal of stimuli from one or more of the senses. Simple devices such as blindfolds and earmuffs can cut off sight and hearing, while more complex devices can also cut off the sense of smell, touch, taste, thermoception (heat-sense), and 'gravity'. Sensory deprivation has been used in various alternative medicines and in psychological experiments (see floatation tank), and for torture or punishment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_deprivation
Sleep deprivation is an overall lack of the necessary amount of sleep. A person can be deprived of sleep by their own body and mind, insomnia, or actively deprived by another individual. Sleep deprivation is sometimes used as an instrument of torture.
Lack of sleep may also result in irritability, blurred vision, slurred speech, memory lapses, overall confusion, hallucinations, nausea, psychosis, and eventually death.
Total sleep deprivation in rats leads to death in 14-16 days. Death occurs later if only REM or only NREM sleep are eliminated. (In humans, it's virtually impossible to die from sleep deprivation since fractions of a second long microsleep sessions develop. Several months of no sleep at all, as in fatal familial insomnia, causes death but other symptoms such as dementia and permanent personality changes develop within the first few weeks.)
Call it legal, make it legal, praise that it's legal...

...but it's still torture. Period.

You know what? I'd like to hear you say the same thing when someone does this to an American soldier.

"It's okay...it's not torture...we're tough..." :rolleyes:
Oh for God's sake! You don't think any American soldiers have been tortured ... I mean actually tortured, not that mollycoddling they do with the Guantanamo incarcerated???

1. I don't fully trust everything that Wikipedia has. Yes, you need to pick and choose, and follow up on the sources. As with all information.

2. If we follow your definitions then we must ban everything because anything can be considered torture. :rolleyes: Not to mention we have to arrest mother nature as well.
Your mother nature argument is getting really old. And so is your reductionism. Yes, let's ban everything because otherwise everything is torture, oh no. It's either ban everything, or allow torture, call it legal, and pretend its not torture. :rolleyes:

Forms of torture used in Gitmo, and their effects:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation

ohhh Sensory-Deprivation. Used by everyone. :rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_deprivation

Sleep Deprivation. Used in Basic Training. Don't believe me? Ask someone that has gone through it.

Call it legal, make it legal, praise that it's legal...

...but it's still torture. Period.

Both are still legally used by everyone :rolleyes:

Not to mention we have to arrest mother nature as well.

Well, if you consider human beings to be at the same level as the natural, non-sentient/sapient world, then you can excuse anything. They're just 'doing what humans do', I suppose.

Because the problem is in the intent. If Nature was doing these things specifically to harm people, then yeah, it'd be torture - or more accurately, /war/.

Yes, you need to pick and choose, and follow up on the sources. As with all information.

As one of my class mates found out last semester.

Your mother nature argument is getting really old. And so is your reductionism.

Aww! I'm sorry! NOT!!!!

Yes, let's ban everything because otherwise everything is torture, oh no. It's either ban everything, or allow torture, call it legal, and pretend its not torture. :rolleyes:

Life is torture period.

Oh for God's sake! You don't think any American soldiers have been tortured ... I mean actually tortured, not that mollycoddling they do with the Guantanamo incarcerated???
Of course they have. Horribly so. Reread my quote Eut. I'm saying, if this treatment was the worst an American soldier could expect from an enemy (it isn't, that's not the point), PEOPLE WOULD BE RIGHT IN CALLING IT TORTURE. This is not an issue of degrees. If an American soldier wasn't raped, electrocuted...but was deprived of sleep for days on end, chained into an uncomfortable position for hours...wouldn't that piss you off? Would you not consider that harsh treatment?

ohhh Sensory-Deprivation. Used by everyone. :rolleyes:

Sleep Deprivation. Used in Basic Training. Don't believe me? Ask someone that has gone through it.

Both are still legally used by everyone :rolleyes:

Just because it's legal doesn't make it right. A lot of things have been legal. Like, say, slavery. That was certainly legal. And used by a whole bundle of people. I guess that the majority /is/ always right, yes?

Just because it's legal doesn't make it right. A lot of things have been legal. Like, say, slavery. That was certainly legal. And used by a whole bundle of people. I guess that the majority /is/ always right, yes?

Until they gave up that right due to the fact that they decided to wage war on the Union. It was pretty much abolished up north. But that is a different thread.

As for this, thanks for admiting it is legal.

ohhh Sensory-Deprivation. Used by everyone. :rolleyes: Oh, I hadn't realised that as long as others are doing it, it's okay. Awesome. The Sudanese are raping women at will...should that be a sanctioned tactic also?

Sleep Deprivation. Used in Basic Training. Don't believe me? Ask someone that has gone through it.
You are a willing participant in Basic Training. And they are required to not cause permanent harm to you. Such is not the case in Gitmo.

Both are still legally used by everyone :rolleyes:
No. Not by everyone. But that's not the point. Again...a practice that is common does not make it right. But I'm wasting my breath...it's not you that has to be convinced.

Until they gave up that right due to the fact that they decided to wage war on the Union. It was pretty much abolished up north. But that is a different thread.

As for this, thanks for admiting it is legal.

Oh, I'm assuming you're telling the truth when you insist it's legal. It's called arguing on someone's own terms.

-- was I talking about the Confederacy, then? I was thinking in terms of civilisation as a whole. Starting with Britain, I suppose, and moving onto our breakaway colony on North America, /before/ that breakaway had an internal squabble and one side banned slavery. The point was, the fact that everyone does it still doesn't make it right.

Oh, I hadn't realised that as long as others are doing it, it's okay. Awesome. The Sudanese are raping women at will...should that be a sanctioned tactic also?

They are also doing Genocide down there too. Not to mention doing real torture and not the crap we're doing either :rolleyes:

You are a willing participant in Basic Training. And they are required to not cause permanent harm to you. Such is not the case in Gitmo.

Try again Sinuhue. Show me where inflicting pain intentionally is written. As for Basic Training, yea you are a willing participant but sleep deprivation is still prevelent. Since its considered torture, it should be banned.

If someone in custody hasn't lost more than a pint of blood, has no broken bones, can still see, hear, feel and speak, and has at least 99% of their skin surface intact, I don't want to even hear the word "torture!" I'm sick unto death of everything the US does to prisoners being interpreted as somehow being "torture!" Place a prisoner in handcuffs? TORTURE! Don't feed him pate and sirloin? TORTURE! Accidentally drop his Koran? TORTURE!

Bullshit! We're not playing tiddlywinks here! These people are violent, fanatatical killers who would love nothing more than to be martyred by blowing themselves and any nearby American civilians to tiny bits.

I wish someone would give them their wish and send them to see Allah. Let HIM figure out what to do with them! Sheesh. :( [/Rant]

Oh, I'm assuming you're telling the truth when you insist it's legal. It's called arguing on someone's own terms.

-- was I talking about the Confederacy, then? I was thinking in terms of civilisation as a whole. Starting with Britain, I suppose, and moving onto our breakaway colony on North America, /before/ that breakaway had an internal squabble and one side banned slavery. The point was, the fact that everyone does it still doesn't make it right.

Not everyone is doing it anymore are they? No I don't think so so therefor, slavery isn't right anymore. To bad we can't convince asia and africa of that. As I said though, that's a topic for a different thread.

Try again Sinuhue. Show me where inflicting pain intentionally is written.
Huh? You mean a memo that says, "We are going to intentional inflict pain"? Give me a break. Niccolo Medici has already dealt with this line of crap.

As for Basic Training, yea you are a willing participant but sleep deprivation is still prevelent. Since its considered torture, it should be banned.
Then work on getting it banned.

If someone in custody hasn't lost more than a pint of blood, has no broken bones, can still see, hear, feel and speak, and has at least 99% of their skin surface intact, I don't want to even hear the word "torture!" I'm sick unto death of everything the US does to prisoners being interpreted as somehow being "torture!" Place a prisoner in handcuffs? TORTURE! Don't feed him pate and sirloin? TORTURE! Accidentally drop his Koran? TORTURE!

Bullshit! We're not playing tiddlywinks here! These people are violent, fanatatical killers who would love nothing more than to be martyred by blowing themselves and any nearby American civilians to tiny bits.

I wish someone would give them their wish and send them to see Allah. Let HIM figure out what to do with them! Sheesh. :( [/Rant]

Well said Eutrusca. Well said. I agree with you 100%!

If someone in custody hasn't lost more than a pint of blood, has no broken bones, can still see, hear, feel and speak, and has at least 99% of their skin surface intact, I don't want to even hear the word "torture!" I'm sick unto death of everything the US does to prisoners being interpreted as somehow being "torture!" Place a prisoner in handcuffs? TORTURE! Don't feed him pate and sirloin? TORTURE! Accidentally drop his Koran? TORTURE!

Bullshit! We're not playing tiddlywinks here! These people are violent, fanatatical killers who would love nothing more than to be martyred by blowing themselves and any nearby American civilians to tiny bits.

I wish someone would give them their wish and send them to see Allah. Let HIM figure out what to do with them! Sheesh. :( [/Rant]
I'm disappointed Eut. But I know this is part of that blind spot you mentioned.

How do you feel about those who have died in custody? (Edit: I'm not just talking about Gitmo, where it's really hard for either side to say exactly what is happening there...or not).

Not everyone is doing it anymore are they? No I don't think so so therefor, slavery isn't right anymore. To bad we can't convince asia and africa of that. As I said though, that's a topic for a different thread.

So, if 'everyone' stopped using sensory/sleep depravation etc, you'd consider it to be 'not right'? And if 'everyone' decided to start killing prisoners (no, I'm not saying it could happen, it's an extreme case), you'd consider that 'right'? After all, if everyone legally does it...

Huh? You mean a memo that says, "We are going to intentional inflict pain"? Give me a break. Niccolo Medici has already dealt with this line of crap.

Since no one is proving that torture is actually taking place down at gitmo, whats the point?

Then work on getting it banned.

Why? In war, you won't get any sleep. Might as well not go with it during basic Training. That way, your prepared for when your in a real war.

I'm disappointed Eut. But I know this is part of that blind spot you mentioned.

How do you feel about those who have died in custody, by the way?

How many have died at Gitmo?

How many have died at Gitmo?
We may never know that...

I'm talking about in custody, period, held by American soldiers...including in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I wonder...is it just Gitmo that you want to champion? How about the stuff going on elsewhere at the hands of American soldiers? Is that okay too?

Definitions of torture...(snipped by the 'quote' button)

Sinuhue, Anguish is part of life, and certainly just being a Prisoner can be used in some of those descriptions as "torture".

In the military/law enforcement context (either one) what's going on at GitMo is not defined as Torture. Using broadest definitions (which most opponents are using), you could define my last four relationships as "Torture", and their ending as "Liberation" (for me, at least... and they were! but hardly war-crimes or the kind of crimes-against humanity that Sen. Durbin's fellow-travellers seem to think are going on at GitMo).

It's tough to separate Hyperbole from objective fact in something as controversial as the current war. To a certain extent, one has to rely on one side or the other to be dealing honestly. Given the visible track-record, I would humbly suggest that the Federal position that what is happening at GitMo is not torture is probably more reliable than the claims of people whose training manual instructs them to claim torture even when none has occurred, and the partisan ranting and backstabbing of a "Safe seat" democrat senator hoping to sabotage a president he doesn't like.

It really breaks down into how you think of the kind of people that join the Military in the first place. With UCMJ Requiring a soldier to refuse to obey Unlawful Orders (i.e. refuse to participate in atrocities, violations of the law of war, etc.), with severe penalties available to be used against a soldier that does not refuse (and we've seen this fairly recently with charges levelled and pressed against Americans accused of an atrocity in the Korean War-nearly fifty years after-the fact, proving no time-limits or statute of limitations applies...) to comply with an unlawful order... for the charges about Guantanamo Bay to be real, the soldiers have to be the opposite of those I've known in the service.

It's very, very, easy for people on the left who've never served to simply assume that the guys in uniform are either mindless robots (at best) or drooling thugs (most common view), either view is contempt-filled.

The incredible number of coincidences necessary to staff the Guantanamo holding facility with people who would conduct, endorse, and cover-up genuine torture and abuse are staggering. Abu Ghraib made news because it was one such coincidence. Getting two, especially this close together, is a pretty strange anomaly, and quite improbable unless you believe soldiers are either mindless robots, or drooling thugs.

We may never know that...

Since this is about Gitmo, if anyone had died at Gitmo, we would've heard about it by now.

I'm talking about in custody, period, held by American soldiers...including in Iraq and Afghanistan.

A few and some done by American Soldiers themselves. Where those soldiers punished. Oh you bet your rank tabs they have. One is up on murder charges even as we speak.

I wonder...is it just Gitmo that you want to champion? How about the stuff going on elsewhere at the hands of American soldiers? Is that okay too?

Soldiers elsewhere are being punished. They did far more than what is going on down at Gitmo. Those soldiers are on their way to the brig because of their actions.

"Yes!! A stronger UN means a better world, less corruption, less war, less killing, and healthier lives." --CanuckHeaven
"HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Less corruption? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA They can't even call Durfar a genocide and you expect them to be a stronger organization? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA"

Isn't it spelled Darfur?

Isn't it spelled Darfur?

Yea it is but I'm just to lazy to change it :p

Yea it is but I'm just to lazy to change it :p
It's meant to be ironic.

You people make me want to burn the Qa'ran. The folks at Gitmo are militants not in uniform engaged in hostile actions to kill Coalition soldiers and Coalition civilians. Cut them loose and they will act to distabilize what stability Afghanistan has achieved.

Puppet shows mocking detainees, Christina Agullera CDs, and female guards flashing their tits is not torture. Rice Pilaf is on the menu. Quit the pity party for these scumbags and help find a way to save lives on both sides of the Atlantic by curbing terrorism.

You people make me want to burn the Qa'ran. The folks at Gitmo are militants not in uniform engaged in hostile actions to kill Coalition soldiers and Coalition civilians. Cut them loose and they will act to distabilize what stability Afghanistan has achieved.

Puppet shows mocking detainees, Christina Agullera CDs, and female guards flashing their tits is not torture. Rice Pilaf is on the menu. Quit the pity party for these scumbags and help find a way to save lives on both sides of the Atlantic by curbing terrorism.

Another well said post. Thank you Matchopolis :)

I'm disappointed Eut. But I know this is part of that blind spot you mentioned.

How do you feel about those who have died in custody? (Edit: I'm not just talking about Gitmo, where it's really hard for either side to say exactly what is happening there...or not).
I just get exasperated at all the innane accusations sometimes. I'll get over it.

If it can be proven in a court of law that an American in charge of one of the prisoners has caused his death, then that American should be prosecuted for the appropriate offense. I have stated this time and time again.

Of course they have. Horribly so. Reread my quote Eut. I'm saying, if this treatment was the worst an American soldier could expect from an enemy (it isn't, that's not the point), PEOPLE WOULD BE RIGHT IN CALLING IT TORTURE. This is not an issue of degrees. If an American soldier wasn't raped, electrocuted...but was deprived of sleep for days on end, chained into an uncomfortable position for hours...wouldn't that piss you off? Would you not consider that harsh treatment?
Of course it would piss me off, but I still wouldn't call it torture, damnit. That's one of the primary problems with trying to hold a half-way intelligent discussion these days ... the meanings of words vary so widely from one point on the political spectrum to another, even from individual to individual. IMHO, "torture" does NOT, I say again NOT, include anything which is merely psychological. "Torture" includes only those things which inflict sufficient bodily, physical pain to cause unconsiousness, break bones, cause disfigurement, cause significant loss of blood, or otherwise inflict lasting physical damage.

Originally Posted by Matchopolis
You people make me want to burn the Qa'ran. The folks at Gitmo are militants not in uniform engaged in hostile actions to kill Coalition soldiers and Coalition civilians. Cut them loose and they will act to distabilize what stability Afghanistan has achieved.

Puppet shows mocking detainees, Christina Agullera CDs, and female guards flashing their tits is not torture. Rice Pilaf is on the menu. Quit the pity party for these scumbags and help find a way to save lives on both sides of the Atlantic by curbing terrorism.


Another well said post. Thank you Matchopolis
__________________

Oh the irony. The dreadful irony.

I just get exasperated at all the innane accusations sometimes. I'll get over it.

If it can be proven in a court of law that an American in charge of one of the prisoners has caused his death, then that American should be prosecuted for the appropriate offense. I have stated this time and time again.And what about his superior officers who approved the actions that led to the prisoner's death? Should they be prosecuted as well.

Wake up, Eutrusca--just because you don't like the accusations doesn't make them untrue. You have every right to be pissed about this, but be pissed at the people who have put the military in the position where they're torturing and killing people in violation of their own code of conduct. Be pissed at your government. That's who's bringing dishonor upon the military.

Apparently, its been awhile since you've been at a university.

Fairly recent, so I know what I am talking about. I will say again. Time management. Some students get along in university life well enough. Others spend it doing significant last minute cramming. Unsurprisingly, the latter usually don't get enough sleep.


Apparently you never gone through Basic Training either. :rolleyes:


Have you? I look forward to all the details then.


We could ask eachother this all day long. Since all we have here is allegations and not proof. Allegations can't be considered truth until proven true. The first rule of journalism is that you investigate the allegations. You do not report allegations unless they are proven true. That journalism ethics. Those that report allegations have violated journalism ethics.


Of course allegations cannot be considered truth until proven true. That is why courts are considered to be a useful place to determine the truth of allegations brought by aggrieved parties against the defendent. But in this case, there has neither been a presence of defence in the box nor even any evidence that said allegations have no resemblance to the truth other than a blank wall.

There is an old Chinese saying. I do not recall the specifics of the statement, but the essentials followed the reasoning that if you have your doors open, false allegations will not work against you because you have bared all there is to bare.



By using chemical weapons in the late 80s? :rolleyes:


Oh yes, according to your logic, a natural process is the work of nature. So if I were to release 20 tons of VX gas in an urban center, I am not committing a terrorist act nor am I committing mas murder. I am simply letting the nature of VX gas work its way into the lungs of people who happen to be unfortunately caught in its way.


You have a problem here. Its called artificial electricution compared to that that happens naturally. Therefore, my point still holds.


Unfortunately, it does not. Unless you are saying that nature itself was responsible for:

1: Temperature alterations
2: Loud music
3: Stress positions
4: Sleep deprivation

If not, then it stands to reason that the following listed, was done artificially, ergo, human control. Additionally, if we wish to look at it at a purely natural standpoint, then staking someone without any clothes in the Sahara desert or the artic pole is surely not murder or torture. It is simply a natural process. The same with tying someone at the top of a 100 foot metal girder in a lightning storm in the middle of a plains.


Except I know the difference between those that occur naturally and those that are done artificially. You've tried to use the reverse of what I just said but you just literally proved my point which was not your intention.


So the allegations of what has happened, if true, are just naturally occuring instances? So nature has been alleged to put put the prisoners into stress positions, kept them awake for periods of time deemed harmful to mental health and made them very cold/hot at various time periods?

I certainly have not proven your point Corneliu. Rather, you have tried to twist what I have said to prove it. But I will certainly not allow you to do that uncontested.


You must provide the proof first. :rolleyes:


No, I will not have to. As I said, since the administration has so graciously set a precedent of forcing the defendent to prove innocence rather than the former prove guilt, my use of the same logic can hardly be called hypocritical when directed against it.

I will not deny that these are only allegations brought against the prison, but at the same time, what you only have are also just allegations. You will not credit the former with truth, and conversely, I cannot credit yours with truth either.

No one cannot expect to throw mud without having it thrown back.


First correct statement you've said all day.


And since lack of proof is a setting not to take any action whatsoever, how do you justify the imprisonment of people without solid proof against them either?

Donald Cheney: Why, by accusing them of being enemy combatants of course. We can accuse anyone of that and put them in prison for as long as we like.

Do you recall the case of an Indian girl who was first interrogated as a potential terrorist suspect and then later deported on immigration technicalities because they could not find proof of actual terrorist ties? Technicalities which if memory serves, would have caused no problem at all.

And of course there are those who allege that they were imprisoned, shipped to other countries with less media scrutiny and subjected to severe torture, only to be released a significantly long time later? Air flight records match what they have said, but the administration responsible will not allow investigations either.

Of course, there was no proof of actual wrongdoing on those cases. So tell me, if proof is required before action is taken, how do you explain the fact that the governing structure feels otherwise?

Or is it that only the governing structure is not in need of proof to do whatever they like?


I think someone needs to look up the word slander in the dictionary.


www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn2.1

Slander:
# words falsely spoken that damage the reputation of another
# aspersion: an abusive attack on a person's character or good name
# defame: charge falsely or with malicious intent; attack the good name and reputation of someone; "The journalists have defamed me!" "The article in the paper sullied my reputation"

Thereby, claiming an action of an intelligence agency which could then be used against it by anyone wishing to claim inhumane practices. Ergo, slander.

Note however, the requirement of falsity. As such, proof to the contrary of the statement must be provided to prove that it is slander. In today's world, lack of proof of the truth of the statement, is enough for anyone to claim slander. Just as the administration is doing I believe.


You don't work do you? All work places are tortureous.


Then I can only assume that you and your friends have found very poor working environments. Yes, there are some work places that are tortureous. Usually they are considered to be illegal in some way or another. But not all.


And are we conducting torture at Gitmo? Nope. Haven't seen it yet.


Is China commiting torture and human rights abuses? Nope. We have not seen proof of it yet. Only testimonials from what must obviously be biased people hoping to damage the country's name.

But yet I saw you stating that China is the top human rights abuser. Obviously you must have significant proof to back that statement. Otherwise, your statement is simply rhetoric, propoganda and slander.

See? I can use your own rationale against you too.


Again, its been awhile since you've been in school hasn't it? Its not necessarily the student's choice either. Its rare that I'm up till 200 AM by choice.


Again, I use the argument of time management. Obviously we have two different perspectives on university life. Thereby, our cases have turned out differently have they not?


Bull!


This statement has nothing worth rebutting to.


Try it and see what happens.


Ah, the famed double standards. It is alright to do something, no matter how horrific, so long as it happens with tacit US support does it not?


And look at why we used them too. It was to save the lives of millions of Japanese and Chinese not to mention hundreds of thousands of American lives.

I look not at the reasons for use. Reasons can be twisted to fit whatever you wish. I look at precedent. If France and Britain can do it, so can America by your reasoning. Thereby, if America can use nuclear weapons in war, so can anyone else who possesses them. If Germany in 1940 can set up death camps, so too can America? And closer to home, If America can sieze foreign arrivals and send them to prison camps on the basis of suspicion alone, deny them access to legal representatives, so can other nations do so?

If someone does it, is it alright for you to do so too? If your answer is yes, and nations around the world feel likewise, then America will truly be isolated as every American citizen outside the borders could then be treated to extended prison terms without legal representation can they not?

Or is this only a double standard that only the self proclaimed world policeman can do?


Isn't it interesting to note that a report of an allegation is a violation of Proper journalism ethics? Isn't it interesting also to note that reporting an alegation doesn't make the allegation true either?

Indeed, which is why it should be neccessary to prove that the allegations are untrue are they not? But yet, we see no proof to the contrary. A simple tour by an unbiased reporting group (3-4 people, preferably from a respected agency to avoid a single side view), should be enough to perform it. But of course, nothing of the sort has happened.

Why?


BTW: You just missed the whole point of my post! So much for reading comprehension.

And the point of your post is? To call for the resignation of a politician because of a statement made after reading a report was it not? One which you said is false and misleading correct?

So, by extending that logic, the current president of America is also required to resign. After all, the case is similar is it not? A report which he allegedly read, made a statement on, and later used to declare war on another sovereign nation. Which so far has proven false.

Yes, you can use the argument of faulty intelligence. By that same logic, should not this politician be given the same reasoning base?

Again. Double standards.

Come Corneliu, I have yet begun to enjoy myself in this debate. You can certainly do better than that.

And what about his superior officers who approved the actions that led to the prisoner's death? Should they be prosecuted as well.

Wake up, Eutrusca--just because you don't like the accusations doesn't make them untrue. You have every right to be pissed about this, but be pissed at the people who have put the military in the position where they're torturing and killing people in violation of their own code of conduct. Be pissed at your government. That's who's bringing dishonor upon the military.

Since when are we killing people at Gitmo? :confused:

I'm sorry, but we don't take innocent civilians, decapitate them, video tape it, laugh about it, and put it on the internet. We're not entirely innocent, but would you rather have these people in a detention center, or running around cutting people's heads off?

Besides that fact, from what I've heard, the conditions in Gitmo aren't nearly as bad as our own prisons.