NationStates Jolt Archive


The Greatest American

Aldranin
21-06-2005, 18:43
Alright, sitting around this summer and wasting away all day (don't tell me to get a job, I tutor all school year, summer is lazy time), this show has come to my attention. Apparently, a bunch of bad comedians and losers on the street are trying to pick the greatest American ever, and they're pulling people out of their ass that, in my opinion, should NOT be up there. For instance George Washington, Ronald Reagan (I liked the guy, but he is by no means the greatest American), Martin Luther King Jr., and others that I do not understand at all.

The point: either pick who you think should be up there - detailing why in more than twenty words so that you appear remotely competent - or explain why some of the people that are up for nomination are there. I'll post a few people I'm thinking look good along the way.
Sdaeriji
21-06-2005, 18:46
What don't you understand about George Washington, Ronald Reagan, or Martin Luther King, Jr.? They all seem to be perfectly reasonable choices to me. Who would you nominate?
Wurzelmania
21-06-2005, 18:48
Skippy (http://www.skippyslist.com/skippylist.html)
Sinuhue
21-06-2005, 18:51
Simon Bolivar. He helped lead the fight for independence throughout the southern cone. Brought ideas of freedom and liberty from France, and from the USA. Went a little nuts with his ideas of a Gran Colombia, but still inspires pan-Americanism.
Sdaeriji
21-06-2005, 18:53
Simon Bolivar. He helped lead the fight for independence throughout the southern cone. Brought ideas of freedom and liberty from France, and from the USA. Went a little nuts with his ideas of a Gran Colombia, but still inspires pan-Americanism.

Great. Now this thread is going to turn into a "Should the USA be called 'America'?" argument. :(
Sinuhue
21-06-2005, 18:54
Great. Now this thread is going to turn into a "Should the USA be called 'America'?" argument. :(
*cackles evilly*...no, but it might get the OP to change the title to Greatest Person from the USA. My answer IS valid under the current title...
Czardas
21-06-2005, 18:55
I'm the greatest American. Nevermind that I haven't set foot in the place for centuries. I start out as an ordinary kid and grow up to be the greatest Supreme Ruler of the Universe since, well, my predecessor! Hail me!!!
Sdaeriji
21-06-2005, 18:55
*cackles evilly*...no, but it might get the OP to change the title to Greatest Person from the USA. My answer IS valid under the current title...

I don't disagree, but you know it's going to turn into that now. :( We've had that argument enough times.
The Black Forrest
21-06-2005, 18:55
I don't know about greatest; but a worthy mention would be Dr. Charles Richard Drew.

He pioneered the idea of the blood bank and a system of for long term preservation of blood plasma.

The bank he ran in New York became the model for the Red Cross' system of blood banks. I think he was also their first director.
Frangland
21-06-2005, 18:56
in no particular order, here are some of my favorites:

George Washington
Abraham Lincoln
Thomas Jefferson
Ben Franklin
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Henry Ford
Farfel
21-06-2005, 18:57
Crazy Horse.
[NS]Ihatevacations
21-06-2005, 18:58
Maddox
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/bpitu_logo1d.gif
Aldranin
21-06-2005, 18:58
What don't you understand about George Washington, Ronald Reagan, or Martin Luther King, Jr.? They all seem to be perfectly reasonable choices to me. Who would you nominate?

I understand them, I just disagree.

George Washington: There were much more prominent, influential founders, such as Benjamin Franklin (who I believe is up there).

Ronald Reagan: Out of the three, this is by far the best, but there have been much more influential and productive people than Reagan. Most inventors and scientists can probably be considered better Americans.

Martin Luther King, Jr.: This is simply ridiculous. Yes, he was on the front of the black civil rights movement. But he didn't do anything special that many others did not also do. The only difference between Martin Luther King and other activists at the time is MLK gave a good speech and got shot.
Sinuhue
21-06-2005, 18:58
I don't disagree, but you know it's going to turn into that now. :( We've had that argument enough times.
Yeah, I'm evil like that. No apologies. I have my agenda.
Sinuhue
21-06-2005, 18:59
Crazy Horse.
Ohhh...I LIKE you...
Aldranin
21-06-2005, 19:02
Alright, just to settle all this "what's America?" nonsense, we are using the first definition of America from dictionary.com, that being:

A·mer·i·ca
1. The United States.

America is not a continent. North America and South America are. America does not have to embrace them both. Use that definition. Bah.
Farfel
21-06-2005, 19:02
Ohhh...I LIKE you...


He was unique. No one has done what he did for his people.
Robert E Lee II
21-06-2005, 19:03
Jefferson
Washington
Lee
Calhoun
Faulkner
Twain

I think those are all top ten.
Aldranin
21-06-2005, 19:04
Jefferson
Washington
Lee
Calhoun
Faulkner
Twain

I think those are all top ten.

Lee? Twain, maybe top ten, but Lee?
Robert E Lee II
21-06-2005, 19:04
oh and me.
Robert E Lee II
21-06-2005, 19:06
Lee? Twain, maybe top ten, but Lee?
Yes Lee. He fought bravely for freedom, was extremely virtuous, was a genius, and went on to do great things for education.
Aldranin
21-06-2005, 19:07
Yes Lee. He fought bravely for freedom, was extremely virtuous, was a genius, and went on to do great things for education.
Virtuous, okay; genius, hardly; fought for freedom, yes, but stupidly; what all did he do for education? I wasn't aware he did any more than the average rich person does today via massive donations.
Frangland
21-06-2005, 19:08
Yeah, I'm evil like that. No apologies. I have my agenda.

And your agenda is, based on your posts, to hate the world and everything in it. right?!!?!

hehe

(still following up on the "people misinterpret my posts" thread... hehe)
Sdaeriji
21-06-2005, 19:09
Alright, just to settle all this "what's America?" nonsense, we are using the first definition of America from dictionary.com, that being:

A·mer·i·ca
1. The United States.

America is not a continent. North America and South America are. America does not have to embrace them both. Use that definition. Bah.

Here we go.

I believe Elvis is currently leading voting for the contest in question.
Aldranin
21-06-2005, 19:10
Here we go.

I believe Elvis is currently leading voting for the contest in question.

Hmmm, well, he did influence American culture a lot... but still... the greatest?
Keruvalia
21-06-2005, 19:12
Carlton ... hands down ..

http://www.unlc.biz/images/carlton.gif
The Black Forrest
21-06-2005, 19:12
Virtuous, okay; genius, hardly; fought for freedom, yes, but stupidly; what all did he do for education? I wasn't aware he did any more than the average rich person does today via massive donations.

If you want a civil war general that actually did things for education. Joshua Chamberlain.
Sarkasis
21-06-2005, 19:14
Benjamin Franklin did nice tricks with kites and lightning and stuff.
He was a talented writer and had a pretty wig.
He said intelligent things, and he was very lucky to be surrounded with intelligent people who understood most of it.
But he looked pretty useless when trying to speak about liberty to Canadians in Montreal.

B. FRANKLIN
Modifiers: Coolness +2, Geekness +2, International popularity -1, Dance moves -3
Superpower: The throwable Wig-O-death (ATK+6), The Lightning Fist (ATK+8)
Verdict: A must-have in any well-balanced revolutionary team
Tarlachia
21-06-2005, 19:14
One cannot honestly claim any one man or woman to be the "greatest" because each person mentioned or thought of has paid their contribution to history.

But enough with that intellectual debate...

I vote Skippy too lol! That just cracked me up.
Neminefir
21-06-2005, 19:22
Nikolai Tesla (ended up as one)
Carl Sagan
George Carlin
Sitting Bull
Ernest Hemingway
Shel Silverstein
William Wallace Cambell
George David Birkhoff, and a few others I suppose
The Druidic Clans
21-06-2005, 19:22
My dad dammit! Might sound kinda cheezy, but he really is the Greatest American I've seen, that is alive. Why? This is a kinda long explanation...

Well, at the age of 17 he enlisted in the US Army, soon after went into the Rangers. (US Military's Best Bad Asses). While in the Rangers, he fought Guerillas in Central America (El Salvador, Honduras, just to name a few countries). Was in Ethiopia (I don't know much of the operation, but they were there to combat the Soviets in Africa). Then, when, I'm born, he moves back to Regular infantry to stick around to take care of the family (we were poor as dirt at the time.) And he helped (and still does) anyone in need. Hell, one time, when I was just a punk 10 year old, we were driving down Interstate 95 and there was this car wreck. The whole back end of a car was crashed in and two people were trapped. Rather than keep on driving like every other dude on the road, my old man pulls over, helps the two people out, one person was cut up pretty bad, and my dad uses some of the medical training he earned in the army to keep him alive until the Paramedics arrived. He was later told the woman he pulled out probally would have died of blood loss if he didn't help them.

Then, still in the Army, he gets a job in recruiting. He does that for years, earns the respect of his commanders and those under him (he remained as SFC, which is Sergeant First Class, so not too many under him...) Then, he starts to plan out his retirement, talking about running a bar in the Florida Keys or Hawaii, and all that good stuff, until the War On Iraq comes up. Then a General Williams decides to reassign my dad (age 44 now) to a combat infantry unit two months before retirement, and tells him goes to Iraq in August. Instead of getting pissed (I'm mored pissed than he), he holds his head up high and laughs about how when he was in the Rangers, there was always that one old dog, bad ass motherfcker Sergeant that could smoke anyone else in the unit, and laughs about he's become that Sergeant in this unit.

Put a quarter of a century, half of his life into serving this country, going off to fight another fight for this country, helps people everyday in my county, so yeah, I think he's the greatest american (alive), 10 times more so than some of the other idiots we have running around this country today...So Sergeant First Class O'Ferrell.
Zatarack
21-06-2005, 19:25
George Washington. Without his exaggerations of French power, the French and Indian war would never have happened, and the Revolutionary War would also never have happened.
Aldranin
21-06-2005, 19:26
Carl Sagan
No!!! No, damn Carl Sagan, fuck that annoying mother fucker. I couldn't stand him.
George Carlin
Hardly.
Sitting Bull
Ernest Hemingway
Shel Silverstein
Gag.
Zatarack
21-06-2005, 19:27
I can tell you who hasn't a chance at winning: William Jennings Bryan
Sinuhue
21-06-2005, 19:33
Alright, just to settle all this "what's America?" nonsense, we are using the first definition of America from dictionary.com, that being:

A·mer·i·ca
1. The United States.

America is not a continent. North America and South America are. America does not have to embrace them both. Use that definition. Bah.

It's the third definition in the Merriam Webster online:
Main Entry: Amer·i·ca
Pronunciation: &-'mer-&-k&
Usage: geographical name
1 either continent (N. America or S. America) of the western hemisphere
2 or the Amer·i·cas /-k&z/ the lands of the western hemisphere including N., Central, & S. America & the W. Indies
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=America

But fine. I'll pretend for the sake of this thread that "America" refers to one, arrogant country alone :D [/hijack]
Sinuhue
21-06-2005, 19:35
He was unique. No one has done what he did for his people.
Yeah...but would he be cosidered an American* by other Americans*?





*I do not, nor will I ever accept this term as belonging to one nationality.
The Druidic Clans
21-06-2005, 23:08
A lot of people had done the same thing for their own peoples around the world as Crazy Horse had done for his...But he's not an American, he was a member of the Sioux tribe...
Celtlund
21-06-2005, 23:12
The point: either pick who you think should be up there - detailing why in more than twenty words so that you appear remotely competent - or explain why some of the people that are up for nomination are there.

I'm not in school. I'm not in summer school. I will not do this assignment.

Ronald Reagan hands down. Along with Bradly, Patton, and possibly Richard M. Nixon.
Masood
21-06-2005, 23:24
Malcolm X
Gataway_Driver
21-06-2005, 23:41
Sitting Bull
Gataway_Driver
21-06-2005, 23:43
What about Michael Moore?



LOL :D
Robot ninja pirates
21-06-2005, 23:50
I don't know about greatest; but a worthy mention would be Dr. Charles Richard Drew.

He pioneered the idea of the blood bank and a system of for long term preservation of blood plasma.

The bank he ran in New York became the model for the Red Cross' system of blood banks. I think he was also their first director.
Never cooked the books to make a profit? Never diddled little boys? Never did anything illegal or scandelous?

Then no wonder most people have never heard of him. He should have been at least caught with a hooker if he wanted people to remember his accomplishments.
Bunnyducks
21-06-2005, 23:53
I didn't quite catch this... so there's this folly American style now?

Please, brothers and sisters... don't go and vote... this devilish thing has wrecked countries more united than yours!

A simple vote for precidency cuts you in half..... this one is a sure way to a civil war!
The Black Forrest
22-06-2005, 00:10
Never cooked the books to make a profit? Never diddled little boys? Never did anything illegal or scandelous?

Then no wonder most people have never heard of him. He should have been at least caught with a hooker if he wanted people to remember his accomplishments.

Wellllll he was black so that might be a reason :eek:

There is an urban legond about him. He died from a car crash and the legond says he was denied service because he was black......
Undelia
22-06-2005, 00:16
For those of you mentioning Sitting Bull, I doubt he would be pleased to be considered the greatest American. He fought against becoming one.

Anyway, My top ten:

1. Teddy Roosevelt
2. Benjamin Franklin
3. James Monroe
3. Abraham Lincoln
5. Patrick Henry
6. George S. Patton
6. George Washington
8. Ronald Reagan
9. John Hancock (yes, he did a lot more than sign his name)
10. Douglass Macarthur
Undelia
22-06-2005, 00:19
and possibly Richard M. Nixon.

He almost made my list. :D
Xanaz
22-06-2005, 00:25
Michael Moore!
Aldranin
22-06-2005, 00:38
Michael Moore!
...
Being the creator of this thread, I hereby decree mentally challenged individuals to be ineligible: thus, Michael Moore is out. Exceptions: dead people.
Itinerate Tree Dweller
22-06-2005, 00:39
Thomas Jefferson

He wrote a living document that still works to this very day and spells out clearly how the government should operate. He was an ardent patriot and defender of individual rights.
President Shrub
22-06-2005, 00:41
Alright, sitting around this summer and wasting away all day (don't tell me to get a job, I tutor all school year, summer is lazy time), this show has come to my attention. Apparently, a bunch of bad comedians and losers on the street are trying to pick the greatest American ever, and they're pulling people out of their ass that, in my opinion, should NOT be up there. For instance George Washington, Ronald Reagan (I liked the guy, but he is by no means the greatest American), Martin Luther King Jr., and others that I do not understand at all.

The point: either pick who you think should be up there - detailing why in more than twenty words so that you appear remotely competent - or explain why some of the people that are up for nomination are there. I'll post a few people I'm thinking look good along the way.
Whenever I am asked this question, my answer always remains the same: Ron Jeremy.
Aldranin
22-06-2005, 00:42
Thomas Jefferson

He wrote a living document that still works to this very day and spells out clearly how the government should operate. He was an ardent patriot and defender of individual rights.

Hmmm... the Declaration of Independence is a living document?
President Shrub
22-06-2005, 00:42
...
Being the creator of this thread, I hereby decree mentally challenged individuals to be ineligible: thus, Michael Moore is out. Exceptions: dead people.
Therefore, Bush, Ann Coulter, Pat Robertson, and Bill O'Reilly are out too.

But don't worry, you still have Karl Rove.
Aldranin
22-06-2005, 00:44
Therefore, Ann Coulter, Pat Robertson, and Bill O'Reilly are out too.

That's fair.
Ubershizasianaxis
22-06-2005, 00:51
The Greatest American ever? Ohh that is undoubtedly me hands down. Why? Because I am 1337, secsy and because none of you are secsy and you all are un1337. I pwnt j00!!!
Xanaz
22-06-2005, 00:51
...
Being the creator of this thread, I hereby decree mentally challenged individuals to be ineligible: thus, Michael Moore is out. Exceptions: dead people.

Hahaha, Oh c'mon, I was joking..lol

I'd say honestly I think it would be... alive or dead right? hmmm.

Albert Einstein , while not from America, he did die an American citizen.
Aldranin
22-06-2005, 00:54
Hahaha, Oh c'mon, I was joking..lol

I'd say honestly I think it would be... alive or dead right? hmmm.

Albert Einstein , while not from America, he did die an American citizen.

I would second that. PS: I knew you were joking, but two or three people have said Moore and it is getting on my nerves.

Also, this thread allows for people that moved to the United States, because A.) they were smart enough to move here, and B.) all of the founders were not born United States citizens, and to rule out all of them would be unfair.
Undelia
22-06-2005, 01:13
Thomas Jefferson

He wrote a living document that still works to this very day and spells out clearly how the government should operate. He was an ardent patriot and defender of individual rights.

Dude, Monroe wrote most of the constitution.
Potaria
22-06-2005, 01:17
Benjamin Franklin.
Aldranin
22-06-2005, 01:21
Dude, Monroe wrote most of the constitution.

I already corrected him, and it doesn't matter who wrote the Constitution because it was a joint effort anyway. No one person made the whole thing up, a bunch of old white guys with time on their hands sat in a room for months and wrote it painstakingly. You cannot justly credit one person with its creation.
Aldranin
22-06-2005, 01:21
Benjamin Franklin.

I could see Ben being up there - he's also on the show, but it looks like he's going to lose.
Potaria
22-06-2005, 01:24
I could see Ben being up there - he's also on the show, but it looks like he's going to lose.

To whom, Elvis? I fucking hope not.
Undelia
22-06-2005, 01:32
I already corrected him, and it doesn't matter who wrote the Constitution because it was a joint effort anyway. No one person made the whole thing up, a bunch of old white guys with time on their hands sat in a room for months and wrote it painstakingly. You cannot justly credit one person with its creation.

True, but Madison is often referred to as “the Father of the Constitution” for his mediation between all the old white men. (both he and Monroe were only in their early thirties).
Fouteenteen
22-06-2005, 01:52
Abraham Lincoln is the greatest American because he embodies all that Americans should be, and his message is eternal. He freed the slaves (although not truly free until the movements led by King) and brought a splitting nation back together. To wrap it all up he had compassion for the South after the war and was honest in every statement he made straight' til the end when his life was taken for his good deeds. A true rags to riches story that embodies what America should be today.

As for Washington, his humility and leadership during the Revolution should put him in second.

King would be #3 for me, and Reagan is up there too.

FDR would round out the top four for bringing the world out of the Depression.

1. Abe
2. Washington
3. King
4. FDR
Aldranin
22-06-2005, 02:02
Abraham Lincoln is the greatest American because he embodies all that Americans should be, and his message is eternal. He freed the slaves (although not truly free until the movements led by King) and brought a splitting nation back together. To wrap it all up he had compassion for the South after the war and was honest in every statement he made straight' til the end when his life was taken for his good deeds. A true rags to riches story that embodies what America should be today.
Kept the country together, yes, but freeing the slaves had nothing to do with it. He offered to drop the issue of slavery if the South rejoined, but they did not. That said, I do think Abe should be up there - if not for him, the South would have been annexed by Mexico, the North by Great Britain, or worse, France, and the entire world would have fallen to Hitler and we'd all be speaking German.

As for Washington, his humility and leadership during the Revolution should put him in second.
There were lots of old white generals like that back then, Washington just happened to be elected president. Nothing special.

King would be #3 for me, and Reagan is up there too.
King was also nothing special. He didn't do anything remarkable that others in his position weren't also doing. The only difference is that he got shot.

FDR would round out the top four for bringing the world out of the Depression.
FDR didn't bring us out of the depression, WWII did, which FDR was reluctant to even join. As if he had a choice - WWI should have shown us that. Becoming involved was necessary and inevitable, and FDR's hesitation effectually caused Pearl Harbor to happen, not to mention allowed many more to die than was necessary.
El Caudillo
22-06-2005, 02:03
Martin Dies
Liverbreath
22-06-2005, 02:15
But he looked pretty useless when trying to speak about liberty to Canadians in Montreal.


In attendance were ya?
The Black Forrest
22-06-2005, 02:15
True, but Madison is often referred to as “the Father of the Constitution” for his mediation between all the old white men. (both he and Monroe were only in their early thirties).

Have you ever read the Federalist papers? He did a little more then simple mediation.....
Aldranin
22-06-2005, 02:18
Have you ever read the Federalist papers? He did a little more then simple mediation.....

Which is exactly what Undelia said he did... are you alright, Forrest?
The Black Forrest
22-06-2005, 02:19
There were lots of old white generals like that back then, Washington just happened to be elected president. Nothing special.

Well the fact he turned down basically being a king makes him a little special. ;)

FDR didn't bring us out of the depression, WWII did, which FDR was reluctant to even join. As if he had a choice - WWI should have shown us that. Becoming involved was necessary and inevitable, and FDR's hesitation effectually caused Pearl Harbor to happen, not to mention allowed many more to die than was necessary.

Woahh You suggesting he was an isolationist?
Aldranin
22-06-2005, 02:20
Well the fact he turned down basically being a king makes him a little special. ;)



Woahh You suggesting he was an isolationist?

No, he wasn't an isolationist, just a lollygagging pussy.
The Black Forrest
22-06-2005, 02:22
Which is exactly what Undelia said he did... are you alright, Forrest?

He did? Man I must be blind. Which post number?
The Black Forrest
22-06-2005, 02:23
No, he wasn't an isolationist, just a lollygagging pussy.

Now you have my curiousity.

Do explain your reasoning and if possible sources.....
Eutrusca
22-06-2005, 02:25
Well, I know I'll get flammed ( perhaps even "framed!" ) for this.

My selection for "Greatest American" is the American military man. From Bunker Hill to Falluja, he ( and she ) has liberated nations, freed entire peoples, and suffered, bled and died for the concepts of democracy and freedom. He has built bridges, schools and deep-water ports. He has gone without food, water, sleep and the comfort of home and family. He has fought and died in a thousand places around the globe. He has moved mountains, forded rivers, built dams and fed children.

Say what you will about the "legitimacy" of the conflicts in which he has participated, or the politics of those who sent him into them, in my own heart and mind he represents the very best of what America has to offer, and deserves the utmost in respect, admiration and honor. I salute him and weep for his travails.
Aldranin
22-06-2005, 02:25
He did? Man I must be blind. Which post number?
Are you kidding? The one you quoted... seriously, get checked out.

True, but Madison is often referred to as “the Father of the Constitution” for his mediation between all the old white men. (both he and Monroe were only in their early thirties).

Wow. Just Wow.
The Black Forrest
22-06-2005, 02:26
Well, I know I'll get flammed ( perhaps even "framed!" ) for this.
*SNIP*

Oh don't beat around the bush, just simply nominate yourself!

See ask and you will receive! :p
Aldranin
22-06-2005, 02:28
Now you have my curiousity.

Do explain your reasoning and if possible sources.....

He sat around twiddling his thumbs for three years while World War II was going on overseas, as if remaining neutral was a logical possibility. The first war of that magnitude, World War I, should have shown him that it was impossible for us not to become involved, and he should have grown some balls, stepped up to the plate, and sent us in to help out our European buddies long before Pearl Harbor.
The Black Forrest
22-06-2005, 02:29
Are you kidding? The one you quoted... seriously, get checked out.



Wow. Just Wow.

Ok and again, did Undelia read the FEDERALIST PAPERS? Madison did a little more then simple mediation.....

Guess I am not the blind one. ;)
The Black Forrest
22-06-2005, 02:30
He sat around twiddling his thumbs for three years while World War II was going on overseas, as if remaining neutral was a logical possibility. The first war of that magnitude, World War I, should have shown him that it was impossible for us not to become involved, and he should have grown some balls, stepped up to the plate, and sent us in to help out our European buddies long before Pearl Harbor.

Ok with what? The army at the time was illequipped and understrained. The goverment wouldn't have supported it; let alone the people.
Aldranin
22-06-2005, 02:32
Ok and again, did Undelia read the FEDERALIST PAPERS? Madison did a little more then simple mediation.....

Guess I am not the blind one. ;)

Are you an idiot? I never said she read the federalist papers, I said she already pointed out that he was known for mediation, which is what you said... remember... *gah*

:( :sniper:

Sorry. I can't read. I apologize. You said "He did a little more then simple mediation....." I missed the "a". I thought you were just repeating what Undelia already said. I'm a moron. I concede. I blame it on Game Crazy, those bastards said Conker would be in today, and it's not coming in until Wednesday. Threw my whole day off. :D
Eutrusca
22-06-2005, 02:34
Oh don't beat around the bush, just simply nominate yourself!

See ask and you will receive! :p
I was an officer. I nominated the soldiers. There's a difference, you know. :)
Lankaria
22-06-2005, 02:34
Just out of curiosity, why did somebody nominate a non-existent person in an otherwise serious list?

And George hardly turned down being a King. He just didnt want to A.) Be called a King, and B.) Hold the postion for an extended time. He had all sorts of trappings he wanted placed around the position of president, though, such as genuflections and special titles.
Aldranin
22-06-2005, 02:34
Ok with what? The army at the time was illequipped and understrained. The goverment wouldn't have supported it; let alone the people.

We could have mobilized with relative ease. We're a big nation. As for support, he doesn't need it - as the President, he can go in and blow up whoever the fuck he wants to for like six months without Congressional approval. Besides, he was known for his ability to deal with Congress, he could have convinced them if he had made an argument comparing the war's precedent to the current situation.
Neo Rogolia
22-06-2005, 02:37
Hmm.....*sigh* I can't make up my mind :( It's a close tie between Reagan and me.
Lankaria
22-06-2005, 02:37
If you bother to check the books, we had hardly any troops at the time. And of those troops, only about 1/10 are technically combat troops. The rest are laundry sergeants, cooks, that sorta thing. I beleive we could have sent all of under 30000 combat troops over- and all of them totally green, and not very well equipped.
The Black Forrest
22-06-2005, 02:38
Are you an idiot? I never said she read the federalist papers, I said she already pointed out that he was known for mediation, which is what you said... remember... *gah*

:( :sniper:

Sorry. I can't read. I apologize. You said "He did a little more then simple mediation....." I missed the "a". I thought you were just repeating what Undelia already said. I'm a moron. I concede. I blame it on Game Crazy, those bastards said Conker would be in today, and it's not coming in until Wednesday. Threw my whole day off. :D

No worries. I have days like that well just about every other day. ;)
The Black Forrest
22-06-2005, 02:40
If you bother to check the books, we had hardly any troops at the time. And of those troops, only about 1/10 are technically combat troops. The rest are laundry sergeants, cooks, that sorta thing. I beleive we could have sent all of under 30000 combat troops over- and all of them totally green, and not very well equipped.

To add, I think a majority of those were in the Pacific.

Japan and the US were already having skirmishes between the navies. Traded a shot or two more then once......
Bicipital Groove
22-06-2005, 02:40
Therefore, Bush, Ann Coulter, Pat Robertson, and Bill O'Reilly are out too.


Ann Coulter would ROCK Michael Moore in a debate. ;)
Neo Rogolia
22-06-2005, 02:41
Hey! I like Ann Coulter....
Aldranin
22-06-2005, 02:46
Ann Coulter would ROCK Michael Moore in a debate. ;)

She'd probably cut him up with a combat knife. Not that I'd care in the slightest.
Aldranin
22-06-2005, 02:49
Pfft, I just noticed that he edited Bush into that list. Bush is hardly mentally retarded... an inability to speak is an inherent trait of most Southerners. It's not unusual. I can't speak either, and I sound like a hick because my Mom is from the South. That doesn't make me retarded, even if I am.
Undelia
22-06-2005, 02:55
I said she already pointed out that he was known for mediation,

Man, I hope that’s a typo and I am not somehow portraying an effeminate persona.

And to answer Black Forest’s question, I have never read the Federalist Papers.
Osalia
22-06-2005, 03:05
Enough of all this insignificant claptrap! The real question is of course who is the greatest Scot? Meaning native of Scotland – a small country north of England and one of the four nations of the United Kingdom. Obviously this is far more important than talking about Americans…

P.S. Jack London and John Steinbeck were fairly fabulous and amazingly they were American! :D
Xenophobialand
22-06-2005, 03:18
Pfft, I just noticed that he edited Bush into that list. Bush is hardly mentally retarded... an inability to speak is an inherent trait of most Southerners. It's not unusual. I can't speak either, and I sound like a hick because my Mom is from the South. That doesn't make me retarded, even if I am.

. . .Bush isn't a Southerner. He was born in Connecticut, went to school at Andover, and then went to college at Yale. If he's a Southerner, I'm an astronaut.

My pick for the greatest American would have to be Jonas Salk. Not only was he intelligent enough to come up with the polio vaccine, a discovery that single-handedly wiped out one of the worst diseases of the earliest half of the 20th century, but he also distributed it free of charge. He could have made millions off of his discovery, but instead he allowed all mankind to reap the benefits of his work. A true humanitarian, and the best of what Americans are supposed to be.
Vagrant Prodigy
22-06-2005, 03:23
My not so serious answer: Maddox, because he is simply the best.

My serious top 5:
1. Ben Franklin: If not for his amazing diplomacy with the French, we would not exist as a country.
2. Teddy Roosevelt: The Panama Canal, which enabled us to win WW2 after the Japs killed out fleet, the total overhaul of the U.S. Navy to make us a world power, and "speak softly and carry a big stick."
3. Alexander Hamilton: Shaped the Presidency more than any other man who was not President. More modern government programs are based on his principles than on any other persons, including Jefferson.
4. Francis Marion: The real Swamp Fox. He kept Cornwallis in the South during the Revolutionary war with a handful of men long enough for the French to send troops to reinforce Washington, and stop his army, which was on the edge of total desertion, from dissappearing. Without this man, the U.S. would probably not exist today.
5. James Polk: The most successful American President to date. He entered office with 4 goals, and completed every one in a very satisfactory way. No other president has actually done what he said like Polk did.
Honorable mentions: Jefferson, Washington, Patton, John Marshall, George Marshall

Top 5 that shouldn't even be mentioned:
1. The Clintons: they are criminals
2. The Bushes: they are not that important or great
3. Lincoln: He didn't unite a divided country, he divided a country by causing a war that created nearly 1 million casualties .
4. Michael Moore: do the words blatant liar mean anything to anyone?
5. Dr. Phil: If I have to explain this to you, you probably wouldn't get the explanation.
Dishonorable mentions: Muhammed Ali, Ellen DeGeneres, John Edwards, Guiliani, Michael Jackson, Madonna, Limbaugh, Barack Obama, Powell, Reagen, Reeves, Condoleeza Rice, Schwarzenegger, Stewart, Trump,
Most of those I've listed in this section are listed either because they've done nothing important, are grossly overrated, or have done bad things that many people simply don't know much about, like Reagan trying to join the communist party when he was the President of the SAG.
Vagrant Prodigy
22-06-2005, 03:26
We could have mobilized with relative ease. We're a big nation. As for support, he doesn't need it - as the President, he can go in and blow up whoever the fuck he wants to for like six months without Congressional approval. Besides, he was known for his ability to deal with Congress, he could have convinced them if he had made an argument comparing the war's precedent to the current situation.
The people would not have supported war in 1940, or any time before Pearl Harbor for that matter. It would have been like Vietnam, or Iraq now. He made a speech in 1939 in Chicago labelling Germany, Italy, and Japan evil, and was booed off the stage.

btw, Ald, the guy above is correct, Bush is not a Southerner. The whole Bush family is from Connecticut, in fact W's grandfather was a Senator there. He does have a speech impediment, but that is not related to his region of birth.
The Black Forrest
22-06-2005, 03:26
Man, I hope that’s a typo and I am not somehow portraying an effeminate persona.

And to answer Black Forest’s question, I have never read the Federalist Papers.

And to think I was going to ask you out on a date! :p :eek:

Seriously,

The main authors were Hamilton, Madison and Monroe.

You can get freebies at the the the damn I just blanked on the project name. They are looking to transcribe the great works to text files on the net.

Anyhow, you can also find all copies at

http://www.vote-smart.org/

:)
JuNii
22-06-2005, 03:55
Greatest American...
In spirit I'd have to say Christopher Columbus and Queen Isabella.

Queen Isabella supported the underdog, she hawked her jewels (or so the saying goes) and placed her faith in a man with a crazy longshot of an idea.

Christopher Columbus grabbed an unpopular viewpoint and dispite the heavy opposition, sailed away while others called him a fool and mad. he staked everything on one longshot and made his destiny.


Actual American... well that's hard to say. but the ones who signed the Declaration of Independance. they started this country and left it's shaping to each generation to come afterwards. they could've formed the country in a concrete mold but chose instead to leave the shaping and refining to later generations.
Roshni
22-06-2005, 03:57
Osama Bin Laden!

Never have I seen one nation together show so much animosity towards one person in a united fashion. Osama Bin Laden has united the American people!
Vagrant Prodigy
22-06-2005, 03:58
Christopher Columbus grabbed an unpopular viewpoint and dispite the heavy opposition, sailed away while others called him a fool and mad. he staked everything on one longshot and made his destiny.
Evidence has actually surfaced suggesting Columbus had a map made by either Scandanavian or Irish fisherman. As you probably know, the Vikings had been to North American several times before Columbus, and Irish and even some Bretan fishermen had been fishing off the Grand Banks for hundreds of years.
JuNii
22-06-2005, 04:01
Evidence has actually surfaced suggesting Columbus had a map made by either Scandanavian or Irish fisherman. As you probably know, the Vikings had been to North American several times before Columbus, and Irish and even some Bretan fishermen had been fishing off the Grand Banks for hundreds of years.
Even more so. he took credit for other people's work! :D

Joking.

Actually, I've never stated that he "discovered" America, just that popular opinion at that time was that the world was flat. the few maps and such were generally discounted as mistakes or fevered dreams. I know Coloumbus wasn't the first (since the American Indians were there when he landed.)
Undelia
22-06-2005, 04:05
Seriously,

The main authors were Hamilton, Madison and Monroe.

You can get freebies at the the the damn I just blanked on the project name. They are looking to transcribe the great works to text files on the net.

Anyhow, you can also find all copies at

http://www.vote-smart.org/



Thanks. I book marked the sight. I’ll get around to reading them when I get bored over the course of the next few days.
Poliwanacraca
22-06-2005, 05:02
I've never stated that he "discovered" America, just that popular opinion at that time was that the world was flat. the few maps and such were generally discounted as mistakes or fevered dreams.

Actually, that's a myth. The earth was accepted to be round long before 1492. Centuries and centuries before. Columbus wasn't trying to show that the world was round any more than people nowadays try to show that the earth orbits the sun. He was simply trying to come up with a cheaper route to the East Indies based on wildly inaccurate calculations - Columbus was the one getting it wrong compared to the scholars of his day, who believed that the distance between western Europe and Eastern Asia was far greater than he thought (and were right).

As for the "greatest" American - I can't imagine answering that. Greatest how? Most intelligent? Creative? Kind? Influential? Powerful? Inspirational? I could give a different answer for every adjective out there, and none of them would be the one-and-only greatest...
Vagrant Prodigy
22-06-2005, 05:11
Poli is correct. Perhaps a better discussion would be greatest American President, or greatest American scientist, or greatest American general, or greatest American entertainer, or something that narrows it a bit. Comparing a President to Elvis is like comparing apples to oranges.
Canad a
22-06-2005, 05:16
A copy of the Greatest Canadian. American copycats.
Sarkasis
22-06-2005, 05:17
Evidence has actually surfaced suggesting Columbus had a map made by either Scandanavian or Irish fisherman. As you probably know, the Vikings had been to North American several times before Columbus, and Irish and even some Bretan fishermen had been fishing off the Grand Banks for hundreds of years.

In fact, the Vikings were there first. We found a lot of traves (especially in Newfoundland).
Some unverified accounts tell about an Irish boat reaching the continent later.
Some doubtful accounts also give hints at one Chinese expedition to the west coast, but we may never know if it really happened.
Then, we have lots of archeological proofs that the Basque came to North America for fishing as soon as 1350. In fact, 40 km from my village, in Trois-Pistoles, there are still ruins of a basque installation that was used for boiling whale oil. Same thing in Sept-Iles and at various locations in atlantic Canada.
Sarkasis
22-06-2005, 05:23
Actually, that's a myth. The earth was accepted to be round long before 1492. Centuries and centuries before.
It seems like the knowledge of "round earth" appeared and disappeared through History. It was more common among seafaring people (such as the Greek). But yes, in Europe people were using Aristotle's and Ptolemy's theories, which are based on a round Earth, and concentric crystal spheres in the sky.

History isn't linear. A lot of knowledge is lost every time there is a revolution or when a civilization collapses.
We tend to see History as : Antiquity - Middle Ages - Renaissance - Modern times but it's far more complex! It may be true for England and parts of Western Europe but...
During the Middle Ages, Chinese people were developing primitive rockets, had public services and the biggest cities in the world. The Aztecs had large cities with sanitation systems. It seems that until the world became "unified" in the 15th century, each subcontinent was living in its own independent timeline.
Americai
22-06-2005, 05:30
I understand them, I just disagree.

George Washington: There were much more prominent, influential founders, such as Benjamin Franklin (who I believe is up there).

Ronald Reagan: Out of the three, this is by far the best, but there have been much more influential and productive people than Reagan. Most inventors and scientists can probably be considered better Americans.

Martin Luther King, Jr.: This is simply ridiculous. Yes, he was on the front of the black civil rights movement. But he didn't do anything special that many others did not also do. The only difference between Martin Luther King and other activists at the time is MLK gave a good speech and got shot.

Its obvious after reading that, that you frankly do NOT know enough of Revolutionary history enough to even CRITICIZE or disagree with any merit as to why Washington is not up there. He wasn't "some dude who lead the Rebels and became President". The man was respected by the most enlightened members of the Revolutionaries FOR MANY REASONS YOU ARE NOT AWARE OF. Your incompitence is so fustrating that I'm going to straight out tell you as an American who doesn't embarass his country's history and his countrymen with uneducated claims: Study American Revolutionary history.

Your a goddamned embarassment to our founding fathers. You will find that without Washington, there wouldn't EVEN BE an American independent republic. It would have been destroyed by the British, and through a hypothetical situation had it won its freedom, it wouldn't have even been able to be a factioned group of states or provinces. America was so close to losing the war that there were at times that only chance occurances turned the tide. George Washington was one of those chance occurances who non-violently also prevented a conspiracy coup against the congress to preserving the army, to FUNDING THE ENTIRE COLONIAL ARMY THROUGH OUT THE WAR. Congress didn't pay for the Colonial army. Washington did AND he had the common sense and wisdom to do MANY other things that you don't know jack from shit about.

What is amazing is how little Americans know that their whole world was SO close to not becoming not even nearly as great as it HAS become do to certain people's contribution that went far beyond the call of duty, or the average human being's contribution to his people and country.

The real Greatest Americans:

1. Benjamin Franklin
2. George Washington
3. Thomas Jefferson
4. James Madison (actually wrote most of the US constitution you uninformed turds)
5 Alexander Hamilton
6. Nathanial Greene
7. Martin Luther King
8. Dwight D. Eisenhower
9. John Paul Jones
10. James Monroe
11. Alexander Grahm Bell
12. Wilbert/Orville Wright

and etc.

Lincoln - Depending on your viewpoint, Lincoln can be considered one of the greats or not. Due to his actions, slavery was abolished in the United States. Due to his actions a president violated much of the US Constitution to preserve it. So Lincoln CAN be considered a great American. I would place him under John Paul Jones personally.

After 13, your list is fine. Without the top 12 however, you simply don't know about who's who in American history.
President Shrub
22-06-2005, 05:39
Ann Coulter would ROCK Michael Moore in a debate. ;)
Not at all. I'll start a thread to debate over that.
Vagrant Prodigy
22-06-2005, 05:51
Also, without Washington the entire army would have deserted several times, for instance at Valley Forge. He might not have even been a great military strategist, but like for instance Lord Nelson, he was extremely charismatic. His men would follow him into hell and back, which is the only reason we are a country now.
The Black Forrest
22-06-2005, 05:59
Its obvious after reading that, that you frankly do NOT know enough of Revolutionary history enough to even CRITICIZE or disagree with any merit as to why Washington is not up there. He wasn't "some dude


Ahhh a historian! So did he chop down the cherry tree? :p

Another interesting aspect was Martha. Would you say she was probably the most worshipped First Lady?

4. James Madison (actually wrote most of the US constitution you uninformed turds)


Well that was a little heavy handed ;) I figured they would get an idea by the Federalist papers. ;)

I admit I have to look more into GW. Hell my great etc Granddad knew him and GW actively tried to recruit him for the army. Angus McDonald if you ever heard of that name (Lord Dunmore's war).

-edit-
As I think of it. Any suggested readings?
Americai
22-06-2005, 06:18
Ahhh a historian! So did he chop down the cherry tree? :p

Another interesting aspect was Martha. Would you say she was probably the most worshipped First Lady?



Well that was a little heavy handed ;) I figured they would get an idea by the Federalist papers. ;)

I admit I have to look more into GW. Hell my great etc Granddad knew him and GW actively tried to recruit him for the army. Angus McDonald if you ever heard of that name (Lord Dunmore's war).

-edit-
As I think of it. Any suggested readings?

1. No that was a myth.

2. I'd say Abigail Adams was. (John Adams wife who was very beautiful, charming, and wise.)

3. Sorry. Not a historian, just a VERY patriotic American who tries to learn the country's best course through the enlightenment of the American patriots and its thinkers.

-Edit-

BEST thing a person who is trying to understand the American Revolution should find is actually a cartoon called Liberty's kids that was a fairly accurate portrail. In fact, it first inspired me to learn more about the American forefathers because it actually portrays the American Revolutionaries as characters that you would see in films. So you just don't "see" Washington, you observe him as you would Obi-Wan in Star Wars.

Very great starter for a beginner. It will give you a timeline, names and events visually. Then you can search books such as Walter Issacson's bio of Benjamin Franklin to many other books you can find in the history section of a Walden Books.

I also am trying to get into the complete writings of Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, and etc. However the volumes are large and I don't have as much time as I did a few years ago.
JuNii
22-06-2005, 06:43
BEST thing a person who is trying to understand the American Revolution should find is actually a cartoon called Liberty's kids that was a fairly accurate portrail. In fact, it first inspired me to learn more about the American forefathers because it actually portrays the American Revolutionaries as characters that you would see in films. So you just don't "see" Washington, you observe him as you would Obi-Wan in Star Wars.

Very great starter for a beginner. It will give you a timeline, names and events visually. Then you can search books such as Walter Issacson's bio of Benjamin Franklin to many other books you can find in the history section of a Walden Books.

I love that show
and the guest voices are awsome.

Annette Bening .... Abigail Adams (voice)
Warren Buffett .... James Madison (voice)
Aaron Carter .... Joseph Plumb Martin (voice)
Billy Crystal .... John Adams (voice)
Michael Douglas .... Patrick Henry (voice)
Whoopi Goldberg .... Deborah Samson aka Robert Shurtleff (voice)
Dustin Hoffman .... Benedict Arnold (voice)
Kayla .... Sybil Ludington (voice)
Yolanda King .... Elizabeth Freeman (voice)
Mario Kreutzberger .... Gov. Galvez (voice) (as Don Francisco)
John Michael Lee .... General Nathaneal Green
Liam Neeson .... John Paul Jones (voice)
Arnold Schwarzenegger .... Baron von Steuben (voice)
Norman Schwarzkopf .... Col. Clark (voice) (as General H. Norman Schwarzkopf ret.)
Maria Shriver .... Peggy Shippen (voice)
Sylvester Stallone .... Paul Revere (voice)
Ben Stiller .... Thomas Jefferson (voice)
Michael York .... Adm. Lord Howe (voice)
Fachistos
22-06-2005, 07:01
I'd have to say William S. Burroughs, Hunter S. Thompson, Larry Hagman or Clint Eastwood. Those come to mind right now, yeah. :p
Mazalandia
22-06-2005, 16:11
Nominees are
Jefferson, Franklin, Roosevelt etc.
Henry Ford
Abraham Lincoln my favourite

Abraham Lincoln was the best. If you rocked up at the White House, he would actually speak to you. It would piss off all his staff, but speak to you all the same. Also, had he not being assassinated, black citizenship would have been granted in the 1870's, not the 1960's
El Caudillo
22-06-2005, 16:55
Nominees are
Jefferson, Franklin, Roosevelt etc.
Henry Ford
Abraham Lincoln my favourite

Abraham Lincoln was the best. If you rocked up at the White House, he would actually speak to you. It would piss off all his staff, but speak to you all the same. Also, had he not being assassinated, black citizenship would have been granted in the 1870's, not the 1960's

Newsflash: blacks became citizens in the 1860s or 70s.
Vagrant Prodigy
23-06-2005, 03:41
I'm tempted to say John Wilkes Booth was a better American than Lincoln. But I won't, he is probably closer to equal to Lincoln than better.
Undelia
23-06-2005, 03:48
I'm tempted to say John Wilkes Booth was a better American than Lincoln. But I won't, he is probably closer to equal to Lincoln than better.

Hmm, a murderous, racist pretty boy actor is a greater American than Abraham Lincoln. Huh, never would have guessed.
Vagrant Prodigy
23-06-2005, 17:10
Lincoln is directly responsible for the death or wounding of over 1 million people, as well as the total economic collapse of the South, which it didn't fully recover from until after World War 2.

Booth killed one man.

You do the math.
Fouteenteen
23-06-2005, 18:53
wow you are frickin stupid...

hmmm heres one

lincoln did not "kill" anyone first of all

he went to war to keep the country together and because a moral ideal of the US and his faith. booth killed lincoln (out of hate) because he believed that its ok to buy and sell people.
Masood
23-06-2005, 19:13
Newsflash: blacks became citizens in the 1860s or 70s.
Technically maybe, but it didnt' mean shit until the 1960s when civil rights actually became enforced by the federal government.
Hyridian
23-06-2005, 19:41
1.F.D. Roosevelt
2. Benjamin Franklin
3. George Lucas
Vagrant Prodigy
25-06-2005, 02:52
wow you are frickin stupid...

hmmm heres one

lincoln did not "kill" anyone first of all

he went to war to keep the country together and because a moral ideal of the US and his faith. booth killed lincoln (out of hate) because he believed that its ok to buy and sell people.

Notice I didn't say Lincoln killed them. I said he was responsible for thier deaths. However, Lincoln did kill people. He killed quite a few people in the Black Hawk War. The men of his company described him as "indolent and vulgar" and said he was "a joke, an absurdity, and had serious doubts about his courage. Any old woman, they said, would have made a more credible commander than he did."
By the way, Lincoln had no faith. Before he was elected President, he was an avowed atheist, he only claimed to be a christian when he decided to run for President.
Here is why I really don't like him. The Southern Congressmen had said they would secede if he won the election. He knew that by running he was jeopardizing the stability of the country, but did so anyway. He knew that at least half the country despised him, but he did not care. No person who truly cares about his country would risk it being split in half just to have a chance to be the leader of it.
He also trampled the U.S. Constitution that was so hard to get into place in the first place more than any other single person. He risked it never being fully respected again. That was simply irresponsible.
That is the side of Lincoln no one ever seems to remember.

Ending slavery was good, but Lincoln did so to stop Britain from siding with the Confederacy, not for the good of the slaves.

Booth killed Lincoln because he percieved him as having destroyed his home. Had he lived to an old age instead of being burned alive in a barn, he probably would have still felt that way.
The Black Forrest
25-06-2005, 02:58
Booth killed Lincoln because he percieved him as having destroyed his home. Had he lived to an old age instead of being burned alive in a barn, he probably would have still felt that way.

Interesting. Why would you honor a man that paved the way for the carpetbaggers and the general abuse of the South?
Nevados
25-06-2005, 03:17
Why the hell are Oprah, Dr. Phil, and Ellen Degeneres on the list? That's a
fucking joke! OPrah ranked higher than JFK and Muhhammad " THe Greatest" Ali.
Vagrant Prodigy
25-06-2005, 15:06
Interesting. Why would you honor a man that paved the way for the carpetbaggers and the general abuse of the South?
You mean Booth? I don't. But Lincoln did plenty to pave that path as well. I feel they are about equal.
Marcks
08-08-2005, 23:07
I'm not in school. I'm not in summer school. I will not do this assignment.

Ronald Reagan hands down. Along with Bradly, Patton, and possibly Richard M. Nixon.

LOL!

That was a good joke.

FDR didn't bring us out of the depression, WWII did, which FDR was reluctant to even join. As if he had a choice - WWI should have shown us that. Becoming involved was necessary and inevitable, and FDR's hesitation effectually caused Pearl Harbor to happen, not to mention allowed many more to die than was necessary.

WTF are you talking about? Roosevelt was a big supporter of joining the war. If you want to blame someone for America's late arrival to WWII, blame the isolationist congress.

In addition, while WWII really pulled us out of the Depression, FDR's New Deal programs did help improve America's condition.