NationStates Jolt Archive

Why would you hope for it in the first place?

Life is a bitch and I sure as hell will be happy when it's over. This promise of "eternal life" always was one of the things that were most likely to one day scare me away from Christianity.

I personally just hope that existence ends. That I'm gone, that I won't have to think or feel anything ever again. Because I will be no more. Just being nothing... in my eyes, that's the next best thing to never having existed at all, which of course thanks to my parents is no longer possible ;)

How about a thread on bilocation?

I believe in reincarnation, but don't believe it happens as a result of karma. I'd not want to go to some stagnate place after I die..I want to keep on existing and continuing the journey, and continuing to learn, even if it's not in this realm of existance.

I've heard some say that when a star dies and goes event horizion that that last moment of existanct is streched into infinity. If this happens with the brain I certainly hope I have a not so disturbing death. But I do believe that this is the only time you will ever know. ;)

Well, I believe in the traditional Christian idea of heaven and hell. Heaven is a place where all those who have accepted Christ’s free gift of salvation (and those too mentally incompetent or too young to grasp God’s word) go. There they live for eternity in God’s presence without pain, suffering, dieses, violence or sin, all the while praising Him, a place of absolute joy really. Hell is where everyone else goes. It is a place of utter torment and eternal separation from God.

I believe in reincarnation, but don't believe it happens as a result of karma. I'd not want to go to some stagnate place after I die..I want to keep on existing and continuing the journey, and continuing to learn, even if it's not in this realm of existance.

Well the idea is that the unrealised soul takes infinite births until it breaks the cycle and attains Moksha (liberation) and thus gets free from the karma.

Why would you want to remain in an endless cycle of reincarnation?

Well the idea is that the unrealised soul takes infinite births until it breaks the cycle and attains Moksha (liberation) and thus gets free from the karma.

Why would you want to remain in an endless cycle of reincarnation?

I know what the idea is, and what the standard believed laws are, but I'd want to continue to evolve as a sentient being, continue to learn, not just try to balance out some cosmic good and bad equation. To me, the gathering of knowledge is the highest calling, and so long as there's something to learn, I want to be around to learn it.

Well, I believe in the traditional Christian idea of heaven and hell. Heaven is a place where all those who have accepted Christ’s free gift of salvation (and those too mentally incompetent or too young to grasp God’s word) go. There they live for eternity in God’s presence without pain, suffering, dieses, violence or sin, all the while praising Him, a place of absolute joy really. Hell is where everyone else goes. It is a place of utter torment and eternal separation from God.

Well, hell sounds pretty much like life, and heaven doesn't sound much better to me. What would I have to do to get extinguished once and for all?

Why would you want to remain in an endless cycle of reincarnation?
Because, as so overquoted goes the phrase, it's not the destination but the journey that matters most/makes the most difference/is the most enjoyable.

I myself am a Christian at heart, but I'm not sure what I interpret the Biblical lines on Heaven and Sheol and Hell to be saying exactly. For those who haven't studied the OT, mainly the Psalms/Proverbs, Sheol is the Hebrew concept of a "Hell," simply the Pit where the unjust and ungodly go to upon death, "down to the depths of Sheol." Anyway, all I know for sure is that Heaven, if and however it exists (for I believe that it exists, even if it's only in my head just to motivate me not to give up on the beautiful places I love that are being bulldozed over and trashed and eco-swiped in order to build sprawling malls and shopping centers and buildings and cramped subdivisions), is that certain place we'd all like most to be. The place in our heart we hold most dear, what most would consider our true home, though as Thomas Wolfe, man from my hometown once said, "You can never go home again." Even if you have a wonderful childhood in a perfect setting, once you grow up/ leave that setting, you can never return to it the way it was. Things change, and though I believe Heaven will allow for change, i.e. growth and development, etc., I do not believe that change there will involve any type of destruction, for I believe that Heaven will contain all the bits of this world that we each individually see as pure or beautiful or home. I believe Heaven will be like the next step, an entirely different plane of existence, esp. since God is credited as living there, so it must be a higher plane of existence, for lack of a better term for describing what it is. Hell I don't know, for all the Bible says about Sheol/Hell is that it is a dark place, filled with "weeping and gnashing of teeth," otherwise known as sorrow and loss and anger and enmity toward others, maybe all. Compared to Heaven, this Earth can be called a Hell, but compared to what Hell is probably like, this Earth can sometimes be seen as Heaven. Fact is, and I address this to the thread starter, this life does not entirely suck, it is only one's own view of it that colors it. Some people may be perfectly pleased with having next to nothing, and others may have all the desires of their heart fulfilled and still not be satisfied. So my answer to this thread is that Heaven is the place where one finds his/her own personal satisfaction and reconciliation with God, the place where one is most at peace and at home. Perhaps this is the Nirvana sought after by Buddhists, or the Enlightenment studied by Zen meditators, I know not of those ideologies. I do know that Heaven is essentially satisfying to the soul, and that Hell is a place where inhabitants most likely feel empty or unfulfilled. Still, this is just the rant of one very young man who still has a lot of learning and even more discovering to do in this life. I do know, though, enough to know that this life is not just crap and worthless, but it is what you make of it. Go study some Roman Stoicism, thread starter.

I know what the idea is, and what the standard believed laws are, but I'd want to continue to evolve as a sentient being, continue to learn, not just try to balance out some cosmic good and bad equation. To me, the gathering of knowledge is the highest calling, and so long as there's something to learn, I want to be around to learn it.
Amen, sire. One of the most enlightened points of view I have seen. Good for you, and best of all luck and blessings to you in your quest for higher knowledge and wisdom, etc. I sympathize with your opinion of life's highest calling. Even so, I myself believe that a human is the highest sentient being available, since only man can comprehend absolutely everything else around him, unlike anything else in the universe. Or should I say, anything we know of as humans. Perhaps there is a higher being....

Amen, sire. One of the most enlightened points of view I have seen. Good for you, and best of all luck and blessings to you in your quest for higher knowledge and wisdom, etc. I sympathize with your opinion of life's highest calling. Even so, I myself believe that a human is the highest sentient being available, since only man can comprehend absolutely everything else around him, unlike anything else in the universe. Or should I say, anything we know of as humans. Perhaps there is a higher being....

Very glad you agree..and that I was able to be understood, as it's now a quarter till 4 a.m. 'ere and I should be in bed. *laughs* Thank you for your well wishings, it's most appreciated.

As to humanity being the highest sentient being available, it is, so far as it is currently known, but that may well one day change.

Personally I cannot help knowing that consciousness goes on after physical death. Nothing else makes any sense to me whatsoever. It feels like a logical impossibility to me that we would cease to exist. I can't get my head around the idea, it feels contrary to everything I see and feel and experience. *boggle*

Nevermind, there is no way to express in finite words the concept I hold in my mind.

...only man can comprehend absolutely everything else around him....

Erm...we can??

Very glad you agree..and that I was able to be understood, as it's now a quarter till 4 a.m. 'ere and I should be in bed. *laughs* Thank you for your well wishings, it's most appreciated.

As to humanity being the highest sentient being available, it is, so far as it is currently known, but that may well one day change.
Exactly, to all your post. Especially the 4 am part, since I have quarter till 5 and I am way too sleep deprived to be holding my job for long :( I have a forum addiction problem. Will someone please start a NSFA?

Erm...we can??
Yes, you're right that was a horrible absolute to throw out there. Allow me to recall it, and to leave it at this. Obviously we are trying to comprehend everything around us, or what is this thread here for again? Or rather, why do we have intellect and people like me and Lord-General Drache?

Erm...we can??
Whoa Whoa whoa I just realized you are a fellow Alpha Centauri enthusiast! Message me sometime, I've circled that game far too many times. Nice quote btw. Well-placed.

Well, hell sounds pretty much like life

Yep. It pretty much is, except the pain is never ending and there is never any relief to the suffering.

and heaven doesn't sound much better to me

It is the way life was meant to be, before we screwed it up by disobeying God. Trust me (and if you can’t do that trust the Bible) heaven is a place of never ending joy.

What would I have to do to get extinguished once and for all?

The soul is eternal.

I do know, though, enough to know that this life is not just crap and worthless, but it is what you make of it. Go study some Roman Stoicism, thread starter.

I never said it's crap and worthless, and believe me I'm making the best of it.
I know about Stoicism, and I agree with it on some points, though not on all.
Still, I know I'd be happier if I wasn't forced to live and I hope that it will end some day. I personally don't want any form of afterlife whatsoever, so that place you described as heaven would simply be a place where I'm not forced to exist.

The soul is eternal.

Now, THAT would be one reason to hate the creator.
I don't believe it, however.

Now If one of the possibilties is that you become gods right hand man, i'm there. If not, I like the idea of reincarnating for infinity with no memory of my previous lives. I am however, not afraid of the inevitable, and it made me realise one of the main reasons for religion-escaping the fear of death.

I do like buddists though - Pursuing enlightenment and accepting the inevitable.

But I want a cactus! :D

I never said it's crap and worthless, and believe me I'm making the best of it.
I know about Stoicism, and I agree with it on some points, though not on all.
Still, I know I'd be happier if I wasn't forced to live and I hope that it will end some day. I personally don't want any form of afterlife whatsoever, so that place you described as heaven would simply be a place where I'm not forced to exist.
Well then, I suppose using my logic, unrefined as it is, Heaven for you is an absolution of existence, and your soul would dissipate so to speak. If you favor the death beyond an endless sleep, an actual termination of existence, you should take that up w/ God. I mean, He made your soul, so He should know how to end it. If all else, I'm sure if you got to Heaven and didn;t like it there, but certainly didn't want to live in Hell, arrangements could be made for you. Also, I know life isn't black and white, never is and only ever is when we are fooling ourselves. So I raise this question, on top or in addition to the original post: If life isn't black and white, how come eternity is?? How can it regress to one-or-the-other, instead of progressing or at least staying the same as a case-specific uncertainty to be discovered and determined by study and an open mind. I dunno. It's way to late for me to still type and make sense, so I'm off to bed. I hope there is not too much of this thread tomorrow for me to read it within an hour. LoL good night all. And Cabra, may you find lack of conscious in your sleep, so that for however long you sleep, you know not how or that you exist. and don't ask how that would evenw ork. Спокойно ночий

Now If one of the possibilties is that you become gods right hand man, i'm there. If not, I like the idea of reincarnating for infinity with no memory of my previous lives. I am however, not afraid of the inevitable, and it made me realise one of the main reasons for religion-escaping the fear of death.

I do like buddists though - Pursuing enlightenment and accepting the inevitable.

But I want a cactus! :D

*hands a potted cactus to the Navy guy

And what do you want to do with it?

Well, I believe in the traditional Christian idea of heaven and hell. Heaven is a place where all those who have accepted Christ’s free gift of salvation (and those too mentally incompetent or too young to grasp God’s word) go. There they live for eternity in God’s presence without pain, suffering, dieses, violence or sin, all the while praising Him, a place of absolute joy really. Hell is where everyone else goes. It is a place of utter torment and eternal separation from God.

I'm afraid heaven sounds rather boring.

Why would you hope for it in the first place?

Life is a bitch and I sure as hell will be happy when it's over. This promise of "eternal life" always was one of the things that were most likely to one day scare me away from Christianity.

I personally just hope that existence ends. That I'm gone, that I won't have to think or feel anything ever again. Because I will be no more. Just being nothing... in my eyes, that's the next best thing to never having existed at all, which of course thanks to my parents is no longer possible ;)In my belief system, denial of our mortality makes a person unable to experience the fullness of their own life. I see that as a far bigger potential loss than the threats of "hell" thrown at me by theists; I would rather be tortured for all eternity than know I had missed my one and only opportunity to truly know what it is to be alive in this world. But maybe that's just because I like this world so much...

Why would you hope for it in the first place?

Life is a bitch and I sure as hell will be happy when it's over. This promise of "eternal life" always was one of the things that were most likely to one day scare me away from Christianity.

I personally just hope that existence ends. That I'm gone, that I won't have to think or feel anything ever again. Because I will be no more. Just being nothing... in my eyes, that's the next best thing to never having existed at all, which of course thanks to my parents is no longer possible ;)

Not all of us dislike life. I am quite happy with life and thoroughly enjoy most of it. As for the idea of an afterlife scaring you away from Christianity, that is just silly. If Christianity is correct then it really doesnt matter if you believe in Christianity or not, you will still have an afterlife anyway. Whether you believe in it or not has nothing to do with whether you will have an afterlife or not, you either will or you wont regardless of your belief. Therefore its illogical for that to scare you away from Christianity.

Now, THAT would be one reason to hate the creator.

You are quite the downer, you know that? Just why, exactly, do you hate life, or to be more precise, existence?

You are quite the downer, you know that? Just why, exactly, do you hate life, or to be more precise, existence?

I wouldn't say that I hate life, that would be to strong an emotion. But I think if it went on for eternity, I would start to hate it.
I don't hate MY life either, I would say I playing pretty well, but I do hate myself most of the time. I hate what's been done to me when I was a child and I hate the fact that I can't lose that memory, that it keeps influencing me and my behaviour.
Also, generally speaking, I don't think the world needed me in the first place ;)

but I do hate myself most of the time. I hate what's been done to me when I was a child and I hate the fact that I can't lose that memory, that it keeps influencing me and my behaviour.
Also, generally speaking, I don't think the world needed me in the first place ;)

Yeah, but in the Christian view of heaven, you wouldnt have those hurts anymore. It would be life without all the pain (emotional or otherwise).


Of course, that isnt to say you cant overcome those hurts here on Earth. Sure, you could. But assuming you didn't (since your attitude implies you arent even going to try), you still wouldn't have them in heaven.


Oh, and the world does need you. There is some purpose for your life, something you were designed for. You just havent found it yet. If you search for it, one day you will find it. When that day comes depends almost entirely on you.

Yeah, but in the Christian view of heaven, you wouldnt have those hurts anymore. It would be life without all the pain (emotional or otherwise).


Of course, that isnt to say you cant overcome those hurts here on Earth. Sure, you could. But assuming you didn't (since your attitude implies you arent even going to try), you still wouldn't have them in heaven.


Oh, and the world does need you. There is some purpose for your life, something you were designed for. You just havent found it yet. If you search for it, one day you will find it. When that day comes depends almost entirely on you.

Careful there.... telling me I haven't tried is a bit pretentious. I did, and I still do. But I don't fool myself into believing that I'll ever get rid of it, as it became part of my character more than 25 years ago. There is no "Me" without that.

I wasn't designed for anything. And I'm not looking for some obscure purpose in life, I just live it. I think if I went around looking for a purpose it would make me miserable, so I just do things the way I see right. Let somebody else judge that if they want to, but I know I'm not doing anything anybody else couldn't do just as well.
So, overall, I don't hate life. I just don't particularly like it, either and would hope that at one point, it'll just stop and not continue on for eternity

Careful there.... telling me I haven't tried is a bit pretentious. I did, and I still do. But I don't fool myself into believing that I'll ever get rid of it, as it became part of my character more than 25 years ago. There is no "Me" without that.

That I can sympathize with. I have had some rather “dark” times in my life, and they have shaped who I am. That is undeniable. Everyone has periods in their life like that. But with the Good Lord as my shepherd I can overcome anything, even the past.

I wasn't designed for anything. And I'm not looking for some obscure purpose in life, I just live it. I think if I went around looking for a purpose it would make me miserable, so I just do things the way I see right. Let somebody else judge that if they want to, but I know I'm not doing anything anybody else couldn't do just as well.

:( You’re making me sad. :(

Are you saying you haven’t touched somebody’s life, made the world a better place, even once? Remember, just because somebody else could do it, doesn’t erase the fact that you did it.

I recommend a heavy dosage of “It’s a wonderful Life”.

I'd like to be told the Truth when I die, or before I die if God is feeling benificent...

Did you hear that God?

I think there is some kind of afterlife. I mean, ARGH! It annoys me when I think about it. You can't not ever be there.

Why would you hope for it in the first place?

Life is a bitch and I sure as hell will be happy when it's over. This promise of "eternal life" always was one of the things that were most likely to one day scare me away from Christianity.

I personally just hope that existence ends. That I'm gone, that I won't have to think or feel anything ever again. Because I will be no more. Just being nothing... in my eyes, that's the next best thing to never having existed at all, which of course thanks to my parents is no longer possible ;)

That I can sympathize with. I have had some rather “dark” times in my life, and they have shaped who I am. That is undeniable. Everyone has periods in their life like that. But with the Good Lord as my shepherd I can overcome anything, even the past.

Good for you, but that didn't work for me



:( You’re making me sad. :(

Are you saying you haven’t touched somebody’s life, made the world a better place, even once? Remember, just because somebody else could do it, doesn’t erase the fact that you did it.

And if I hadn't been there, somebody else would have done it (better, most likely) and nobody would have missed me in the forst place :)


I recommend a heavy dosage of “It’s a wonderful Life”.

Jesus!, are you trying to finish me off right here and now?

are you trying to finish me off right here and now?

What?

What?

Because heavy dosage of “It’s a wonderful Life” is very likely to kill me on the spot ;)

I believe we are all here for a purpose ... and I believe in an afterlife / reincarnation / meeting in the Bardo - whatever you want to call it.

I'm in no rush to die here, but I'm really looking forward to experiencing what comes next.

This one seems particularly interesting :
The following is a description of the bardo realms that one travels through after death.

The First Bardo

The first bardo comes at the very moment of death, when there dawns the Clear Light of the Ultimate Reality. This is the very content and substance of the state of liberation, if only the soul can recognize it and act in a way to remain in that state. The instructions intended to be read at the moment of the person's death are designed to help him do this. He is told, first of all, to embrace this supreme experience not in a selfish and egoistic way but rather with love and compassion for all sentient beings. This will aid him in the second step, which is to realize that his own mind and self is identical with the Clear Light, implying that he himself IS the Ultimate Reality, "the All-good Buddha", transcending time, eternity, and all creation. If he can recognize this while in this supreme state at the moment of death, he will attain liberation - that is, he will remain in the Clear Light forever. This condition is called the "Dharmakaya", the highest spiritual body of the Buddha.

Lots of deleted Word documents and Gif pictures live forever in the AfterFile.

Question: Why does having an afterlife mean life has "a purpose", and having no afterlife mean life has "no purpose"?

It is quite simple. Without an afterlife there is seen to be no reason to believe in something greater. Why have a purpose when purpose is something created by higher beliefs? Have you ever considered why you do what you do? For an atheist this is a more complicated question because no higher force compels him to do anything and he has no reason to do anything that does not bring himself pleasure while atheists can have purpose the fact is that that purpose they give themselves is purpose without meaning (they do it for a reason that is a cop out or that does not show that they honestly believe in no higher existence).

It is quite simple. Without an afterlife there is seen to be no reason to believe in something greater. Why have a purpose when purpose is something created by higher beliefs? Have you ever considered why you do what you do? For an atheist this is a more complicated question because no higher force compels him to do anything and he has no reason to do anything that does not bring himself pleasure while atheists can have purpose the fact is that that purpose they give themselves is purpose without meaning (they do it for a reason that is a cop out or that does not show that they honestly believe in no higher existence).
Life is greater.

Why is life greater? That is sort of my question how is life important without a spiritual world?

Why is life greater? That is sort of my question how is life important without a spiritual world?
What is a spiritual world? If it is a capacity for understanding the world through the filter of religious thinking, then yes, atheists lack it. However, they have different filters, different ways of understanding the world, that are no less spiritual for not including god. They recognize things greater than themselves, too, all of which can impart purpose --honour and duty, family and friends, history and culture, economy and commerce.

Life --the state of being alive, the capacity for self-determination, animation, reproduction, etc. --is greater than any one person in that it supercedes them; life was here before they were born, and will continue long after they perish.

There are any number of other things that are greater than one person.

Why are they greater? No one told you that they were greater and because you, your nation, your family and your friends are in actuallity no more special than a rock or a computer, why care for them. I see the holy mandate from God as giving these things any significance at all, I see God's will as making life actually significant. It is hard for me to see your point of view because I see the spiritual as assigning the importance of everything in life, because no one cares about rocks and if people are the same then what makes them special?

Because, as so overquoted goes the phrase, it's not the destination but the journey that matters most/makes the most difference/is the most enjoyable.


Lol.

I thought that the destination is what gives the purpose to any journey.

anywayz, here are some verses from the Bhagvad Gita. taken from The Book "Bhagvad Gita as it is".

Chapter 2. TEXT 13

As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change.


Chapter 6. Sankhya-yoga
TEXT 5
A man must elevate himself by his own mind, not degrade himself. The mind is the friend of the conditioned soul, and his enemy as well.

Chapter 2.
TEXT 29
Some look at the soul as amazing, some describe him as amazing, and some hear of him as amazing, while others, even after hearing about him, cannot understand him at all.

Why are they greater? No one told you that they were greater and because you, your nation, your family and your friends are in actuallity no more special than a rock or a computer, why care for them. I see the holy mandate from God as giving these things any significance at all, I see God's will as making life actually significant. It is hard for me to see your point of view because I see the spiritual as assigning the importance of everything in life, because no one cares about rocks and if people are the same then what makes them special?
Hmm... It seems you have limited what is "spiritual" with the same religious filter that I mentioned earlier, and perhaps "greater" too. This gives you an inability to see any other ways of thinking as being spiritual, as you admit.

They are greater because they supercede a person.

Why are they greater? No one told you that they were greater and because you, your nation, your family and your friends are in actuallity no more special than a rock or a computer, why care for them. I see the holy mandate from God as giving these things any significance at all, I see God's will as making life actually significant. It is hard for me to see your point of view because I see the spiritual as assigning the importance of everything in life, because no one cares about rocks and if people are the same then what makes them special?

Why do they have to be special? Why is that necessary for you?

To me, they are special because they are my own kind. But I regard life with respect on the whole, not just human life.
I wouldn't call myself Atheist, as I believe that there is a god who is in some way or another responsible for the existence of our univers and therefore ultimately for our own existence.
So you only care for your friends and family because god told you to? That would be rather poor indeed. You care for them because they are in one way or another close to you, maybe because they, in return, care for you and you know it. You might need to bring god into the picture to explain it to yourself, others just don't. But that doesn't dimish their devotion to their ideals and the people they care about.
Btw, you would be surprised at the number of people who care about rocks (http://www.experiencefestival.com/rocks)
;)

Most of what makes us human is created by advanced biology. I suppose that a spiritual belief about the importance of humanity is better than thinking that all life is pathetic and pointless but I still see my life as simply and hopefully a step towards something greater. Afterall I do not see much special about being a collection of cells that is part of a collection of collections of cells.

Most of what makes us human is created by advanced biology. I suppose that a spiritual belief about the importance of humanity is better than thinking that all life is pathetic and pointless but I still see my life as simply and hopefully a step towards something greater. Afterall I do not see much special about being a collection of cells that is part of a collection of collections of cells.

No offense, but... you believe in an afterlife because life isn't special and great enough?

Look the rock thing was an example and I use religion because I have difficulties with empathy so I use it to have an ethic system rather than being a psychotic wanna be dictator, which is what I would wanna be if it weren't for morality.

Look the rock thing was an example and I use religion because I have difficulties with empathy so I use it to have an ethic system rather than being a psychotic wanna be dictator, which is what I would wanna be if it weren't for morality.

Now, THAT is the best explanation for Christian faith I've heard since convent school :fluffle:

Well, considering that we live in a world where people are murdered and raped as we type, where bad things happen by sheer luck, and where reality is only as true as one wants it to be, I would prefer a nice, calming and knowing afterlife where I do not have to feel like I am a fool for not understanding why horrors happen, and have a reality where I can feel more peace. Of course this life has good things but it is still flawed in a way that I find displeasing and of course I know that I do run the risk of landing in the other place but to know and feel peace is a desire that is worth working towards and yes I don't always have the faith I should.

Well, considering that we live in a world where people are murdered and raped as we type, where bad things happen by sheer luck, and where reality is only as true as one wants it to be, I would prefer a nice, calming and knowing afterlife where I do not have to feel like I am a fool for not understanding why horrors happen, and have a reality where I can feel more peace. Of course this life has good things but it is still flawed in a way that I find displeasing and of course I know that I do run the risk of landing in the other place but to know and feel peace is a desire that is worth working towards and yes I don't always have the faith I should.

And here's one of the differences : I couldn't feel peace knowing that there are others who can't. As long as I know, I'll feel the need to help them. If I don't know, what's the point being in heaven for? Or hell, for that matter, I guess that would be more likely in my case.

I just want to cease to exist. I don't want to have to breath, think or feel ever again.
Yes, there are nice things as well, but a whole day of nice things normally doesn't even balance 15 minutes of the evening news... let alone memory and bad dreams.

afterlife? huh. First off, I don't believe in the "traditional" view of heaven and hell...there is no "hell" in my religion, and no definate "heaven" either...it's really open to personal interpretation.
I've never really liked the typical Christian belief, that those who accept Jesus Christ go to heaven and everyone else burns in hell. Why would G-d give us free will and then condemn us to eternal torment for making the "wrong" choice? Expecially if G-d is supposed to be the loving, caring, and forgiving type.
A friend of mind thinks that after death, there is nothing, you get one chance at life and that's it. I can see why he believes that...he says that expecting anything else is like getting a free ice cream sundae, eating it, and asking for a second one.
Personally, I think there is some sort of afterlife, I just haven't yet decided exactly what I believe it to be. Maybe even reincarnation, it's a rather "un-Jewish" belief, but it makes some sense to me.

Well, I believe in the traditional Christian idea of heaven and hell. Heaven is a place where all those who have accepted Christ’s free gift of salvation (and those too mentally incompetent or too young to grasp God’s word) go. There they live for eternity in God’s presence without pain, suffering, dieses, violence or sin, all the while praising Him, a place of absolute joy really. Hell is where everyone else goes. It is a place of utter torment and eternal separation from God.

I really don't see what's so great about heaven, though. I can either go to a place that essentially amounts to a combination of the Human Instrumentality Project and 1984 with people like Bush, or I can go to a place that sucks (my life sucks pretty badly already, though) and hang out with Nietzsche, Goldman, Darwin, and other people known for their genius.

Well your soul continue to live on. I don't think that a soul has to think. Honestly you are not your soul and to a certain extent your own beliefs, ideas and intelligence will not live on. Really the soul of Einstein is probably as smart as the soul of a retard. The afterlife is probably not the same as going to hawaii or anything like we are even capable of understanding. Heaven is bliss and perfection and hell is suffering like no one has ever experienced before.

Well your soul continue to live on. I don't think that a soul has to think. Honestly you are not your soul and to a certain extent your own beliefs, ideas and intelligence will not live on. Really the soul of Einstein is probably as smart as the soul of a retard. The afterlife is probably not the same as going to hawaii or anything like we are even capable of understanding. Heaven is bliss and perfection and hell is suffering like no one has ever experienced before.

If my thoughts and experiences don't go with the soul, what would be the point of suffering in hell? I wouldn't even remember what I suffer FOR

You suffer for beliefs not actions. You do not have to remember anything, as the soul has your moral imperfections.

I don't believe in an afterlife. I look at life more from a Tralfamadorean approach: when life ends you don't really stop existing, you just continue to exist during the time you were alive. It's certainly sad still, because death limits the amount of happiness you can experience.

However, I would really like there to be heaven. I hope for it really hard, but I know it's probably not true.

You suffer for beliefs not actions. You do not have to remember anything, as the soul has your moral imperfections.

So, as long as I have the right belief, my actions don't count at all?

Why would they? We can pray for forgiveness and that is a belief is more important than an action. We believe that the action was wrong and that we are sorry and it no longer controls our destiny. However, if you believe something for a selfish reason, such as believing in God only for heaven then the selfishness is a sin. Ultimately the forces in control of whether we get into heaven are more better than we are and there are no loop holes so that immorality is not punished and morality is not rewarded.

Why would they? We can pray for forgiveness and that is a belief is more important than an action. We believe that the action was wrong and that we are sorry and it no longer controls our destiny. However, if you believe something for a selfish reason, such as believing in God only for heaven then the selfishness is a sin. Ultimately the forces in control of whether we get into heaven are more better than we are and there are no loop holes so that immorality is not punished and morality is not rewarded.

So.... if I was going to heaven, I would meet people there who burned witches (in the firm belief that witches exist, the to-be-burned is a witch and witchcraft is immoral according to the bible)? I would meet with fanatic missionaries, who converted people by beating the living daylight out of them in the firm belief of saving their souls if not their bodies?
But I wouldn't meet Gandhi, as he wasn't Christian?

No thanks, give me hell, at least the company there will be better.

So.... if I was going to heaven, I would meet people there who burned witches (in the firm belief that witches exist, the to-be-burned is a witch and witchcraft is immoral according to the bible)? I would meet with fanatic missionaries, who converted people by beating the living daylight out of them in the firm belief of saving their souls if not their bodies?
But I wouldn't meet Gandhi, as he wasn't Christian?

No thanks, give me hell, at least the company there will be better.

Thank you for summing up why I don't follow the Christian belief system :)

Thank you for summing up why I don't follow the Christian belief system :)

You know, the more I read about it here, the less I can identify with it. I used to call myself Christian, but I think I'm turning agnostic here...

Well the company would not affect how pleasant the place would be anyway. Heaven is perfect bliss, Hell is torture that would make gulags and concentration camps look like a happy playground. As well there is no way to tell where Gandhi goes anyway. He was a good person who tried to do good things. That speaks strongly of heaven material, the fact that he was not christian might not have affected where he went anyway because God is a better judge than any human. He is not cruel or pointless or insane and if he is, hell is where the good and evil will go for a fun time of suffering immortal agony. Besides heaven would be all good company because it is perfect.

So, as long as I have the right belief, my actions don't count at all?
If you always act in accord with your beliefs, and it's very difficult not to, then the actions are simply a reflection of the beliefs.

Yay! A Christian just admitted Pascal's Wager is wrong!

however in the hell ive always been taught about, the "neverending agony" etc. is a result of an eternal separation from god. ive already some to terms with the separation part (im agnostic) so if for some reason christianity is correct in the afterlife aspect, ill be partyin' it up with satan. (--DISCLAIMER: i am not a satanist, i dont even believe in it.)

So.... if I was going to heaven, I would meet people there who burned witches (in the firm belief that witches exist, the to-be-burned is a witch and witchcraft is immoral according to the bible)? I would meet with fanatic missionaries, who converted people by beating the living daylight out of them in the firm belief of saving their souls if not their bodies?
But I wouldn't meet Gandhi, as he wasn't Christian?

No thanks, give me hell, at least the company there will be better.


*cheers*

Thank you, Cabra.

Yay! A Christian just admitted Pascal's Wager is wrong!

Who is Pascal Wager?

There is no way a soul can be prepared for a separation from God. The soul is not the mind. You may think that you are ready to handle that kind of separation but your soul still has its weakness. Really though I am not that great of a christian, I try to be but I have not been to church for somewhere around 8-10 years. I do not read the bible enough and the only bible I have read is a small picture bookish type bible made for children. I most certainly do not know everything about heaven/hell but have thought over some of the different ideas(we all go to heaven, separation from God, evil to hell and good to heaven)
Anyway I think that a good part of religion comes from what you see inside yourself and that includes the true nature of God. As well pascals wager is not totally flawed because if you adhere to christianity over a long period of time you will probably truly believe it despite your initial reasoning.

Yay! A Christian just admitted god is within us!

Ok I am a sucky christian and probably only take that title because it is the popular religion in power. God is everywhere though and he will guide you if you ask or at least I think he will, there is also the placebo affect which can skew things but I ask him for advice and I do look inside for truth. Really I would not really mind converting to another monotheistic religion if I could make those beliefs mesh with what I already think I know, oh and if it would provide me with some more earthly fulfillment/spiritual fulfillment.

Yay! A Christian just admitted god is within us!
:D

So.... if I was going to heaven, I would meet people there who burned witches (in the firm belief that witches exist, the to-be-burned is a witch and witchcraft is immoral according to the bible)? I would meet with fanatic missionaries, who converted people by beating the living daylight out of them in the firm belief of saving their souls if not their bodies?

Actually I think they're burning also, that's not zee Christian way.

But I wouldn't meet Gandhi, as he wasn't Christian?

No thanks, give me hell, at least the company there will be better.

Kinda hard to talk to people while screaming from all the pain, you know.

Actually I think they're burning also, that's not zee Christian way.

There are several bible verses refering to witchcraft :

Revelation 21:8 - But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Deuteronomy 18, 10-12 - Let there not be found among you anyone who immolates his son or daughter in the fire, nor a fortune-teller, soothsayer, charmer, diviner, or caster of spells, nor one who consults ghosts and spirits or seeks oracles from the dead. Anyone who does such things is an abomination to the LORD.

So, according to that you would do right to kill a witch. And if, as Holyawesomeness pointed out, your actions don't count, only your believes, you can be sure to find some inquisitioners and religious zealots there...



Kinda hard to talk to people while screaming from all the pain, you know.

Well, at least I'll be screaming with the right people ;)

Also you will probably be screaming with many preachers and possibly even popes. What is your deal with witch burning anyway? If you killed someone for committing a crime they did not commit but did not realize that they were not guilty it would not be much of a crime, it would be foolish more than anything. Most of the people screaming in hell are going to be those who did horrible things with horrible intentions. The simple fact is that those who burn in hell deserve it and those who burn in heaven also deserve it. God is the perfect judge after all, if he exists I mean God's perfection is a more important part of the religion than anything else you can dig up in that old book.

Also you will probably be screaming with many preachers and possibly even popes. What is your deal with witch burning anyway? If you killed someone for committing a crime they did not commit but did not realize that they were not guilty it would not be much of a crime, it would be foolish more than anything. Most of the people screaming in hell are going to be those who did horrible things with horrible intentions. The simple fact is that those who burn in hell deserve it and those who burn in heaven also deserve it. God is the perfect judge after all, if he exists I mean God's perfection is a more important part of the religion than anything else you can dig up in that old book.

Um.... who burns in heaven?
I was born in a town that burned an estimated 900 witches between 1624 and 1638, so that did always fascinate me.
If you believe you are doing the right thing, you can't go wrong? Not a big incentive to constantly question and check your actions, is it? Rather to cling blindly to your faith and condemn everybody who is trying to open your eyes...

So, according to that you would do right to kill a witch. And if, as Holyawesomeness pointed out, your actions don't count, only your believes, you can be sure to find some inquisitioners and religious zealots there...

Let us talk about Jesus and the Prostitute.

There was once a Prostitute, and she was doing the (pow chika pow wow) with a man, of course, she was caught. According to the Law of Moses, she has to be stoned.

And thus, the people dragged her out of the house and were about to stone her until...

... JESUS (man I love capping that name) appeared. He saw them and said "Let he who is free from sin cast the first stone" and since all the men were dirty nasty sinners, they err... didn't stone her. Then the Prostitute thanked Jesus, got saved, and etc.

Now you see, yes it is bad, and yes it is probably legal to stone them. But since we're all dirty sinners (even me) we don't have that right. God is the only Judge. Thus, all the Inquisitors are BURNING IN THE ETERNAL HELLFIRE... err... unless, they repented. Then that's fine.

I hope that helped >>

So, according to that you would do right to kill a witch. And if, as Holyawesomeness pointed out, your actions don't count, only your believes, you can be sure to find some inquisitioners and religious zealots there...

Umm, all it is saying is not to associate with those kind of people, not to kill them. Besides that’s Old Testament. Jesus brought a new law of forgiveness and compassion.

Umm, all it is saying is not to associate with those kind of people, not to kill them. Besides that’s Old Testament. Jesus brought a new law of forgiveness and compassion.

Geez, I could've just said that -_-

heavens supposed to be perfect right? (correct me if i'm wrong) or at least it's supposed to be the best place possible. why would you want to live somewhere that perfect? sure, it's great at first, but it would get boring cause everything always turns out the way it's supposed too. thats retarded! i would much rather just cease to exist.

Look it is wrong not to check what you are doing but God realizes that people are fools and is merciful as well the burning in heaven was joking anyway. I thought it would be funny to say burning in heaven because I have a stupid sense of humor like that.

heavens supposed to be perfect right? (correct me if i'm wrong) or at least it's supposed to be the best place possible. why would you want to live somewhere that perfect? sure, it's great at first, but it would get boring cause everything always turns out the way it's supposed too. thats retarded! i would much rather just cease to exist.

You could always ask God to put you in RL again :p

heavens supposed to be perfect right? (correct me if i'm wrong) or at least it's supposed to be the best place possible. why would you want to live somewhere that perfect? sure, it's great at first, but it would get boring cause everything always turns out the way it's supposed too. thats retarded! i would much rather just cease to exist.

You know... if we're both very lucky, that's what heaven is going to be like ;)

There is no way a soul can be prepared for a separation from God. The soul is not the mind. You may think that you are ready to handle that kind of separation but your soul still has its weakness. Really though I am not that great of a christian, I try to be but I have not been to church for somewhere around 8-10 years. I do not read the bible enough and the only bible I have read is a small picture bookish type bible made for children. I most certainly do not know everything about heaven/hell but have thought over some of the different ideas(we all go to heaven, separation from God, evil to hell and good to heaven)
Anyway I think that a good part of religion comes from what you see inside yourself and that includes the true nature of God. As well pascals wager is not totally flawed because if you adhere to christianity over a long period of time you will probably truly believe it despite your initial reasoning.

You don't need Church to be Christian, but the Bible is a bit of a requirement, you realize.

Ok I am a sucky christian and probably only take that title because it is the popular religion in power. God is everywhere though and he will guide you if you ask or at least I think he will, there is also the placebo affect which can skew things but I ask him for advice and I do look inside for truth. Really I would not really mind converting to another monotheistic religion if I could make those beliefs mesh with what I already think I know, oh and if it would provide me with some more earthly fulfillment/spiritual fulfillment.

So, you're using Christianity for your own personal gains, if I understand that first sentence correctly? It sounds to me like you need to read up on world religions, including your own, so you can 1)Know what exactly you're supposed to be doing, and 2)Decide if you still think it's right for you.

I doubt that a soul can feel bored in anyway. I also doubt that your consciousness would continue to exist. Your soul would probably spend all eternity basking in the happiness of heaven and God's glory. Heaven is perfect because it is perfect, no one is displeased with perfect because it is perfectly perfect, the fact is that noone understands perfect.

Umm, all it is saying is not to associate with those kind of people, not to kill them. Besides that’s Old Testament. Jesus brought a new law of forgiveness and compassion.

Yes, I heard that a number of times. Now nobody is sure which law applies morally... homosexuality is still bad, but don't stone witches any more?

yeah, but... the world isnt perfect. and i tend to like the world. in all my moodiness and depression... i like it. in some.. quite odd way.

I doubt that a soul can feel bored in anyway. I also doubt that your consciousness would continue to exist. Your soul would probably spend all eternity basking in the happiness of heaven and God's glory. Heaven is perfect because it is perfect, no one is displeased with perfect because it is perfectly perfect, the fact is that noone understands perfect.

You know what's incredibly unfair about this? Nobody ever asked me if I want to play that game. I never asked to exist. And now I have to follow rules somebody else set up (I would obey them anyway, it's the "have to" that bugs me) and if you should be right this whole stupid affair is never ever going to end!
How do you sue god?

Yes I did admit that I am not the best. However, I am going to explore some religions later in life(I am young and by later I mean when I start trying to settle into a religion). As well the only problem with a religious book is that it has been altered by time and stupid people, but yes currently at best I am not really a christian but a monotheist trying to become christian in order to fit in with society and as part of that progress I will probably join a church and play the whole good religious person part when I actually become an adult.

Look if I am right then you will get what you deserve, if you are good then the eternity will be pleasing despite what you would think it would be.

Look if I am right then you will get what you deserve, if you are good then the eternity will be pleasing despite what you would think it would be.

To get to Heaven you must accept Christ too, you know.

I did not mean to deny that. I merely stated that to deny the claim that heaven would be boring.

Well I'm an agnostic, and I also believe that every god that someone has ever believed in exists. As for afterlife I think that you get a choice, also if you believe in a religion then you will get the afterlife of that religion depending on what rules you broke, and since I don't believe in any relgion I believe that I can make up my own afterlife, but however it turns out I think we are all going to be surprised.

Well I am not sure that you are agnostic if you believe that. You acknowledge the presence of gods and your belief appears to be an odd, polytheistic belief. At least if I did not misinterpret you.

Teramiratu, does that mean that if I believe in some whacked out god with all my heart, then they exist? I think that belief is a little silly, to be honest. It seems way too convenient to be able to die and then choose your afterlife...I mean, it seems like you got this from an episode of a flash cartoon about Death, where a plane is crashing. Death appears onboard and tells everyone what's going to happen to them, then gets to this one lunatic, and he's like "Ok, says here that you made up a religion where everyone lives on a tropical island with beautiful women drinking wine all day." Then he gets to the agnostic and he's like "Uh...I'll go to that guy's afterlife."