NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/06/20/killer.release.reut/index.html

Way worse than the topic title suggested. Seriously. Not even a special case for this woman?

They say no one deserves to be killed. But I'm SAYING this lady deserves to be killed.

Everyone on this forum knows that Canada always does the right thing. :rolleyes:

Everyone on this forum knows that Canada always does the right thing. :rolleyes:
Maybe they'll "let" her immigrate to the US...

She'll fit right in in SoCal.

Ahh... Homolka.

From the subject line, I thought you were complaining about Canada using capital punishment (which isn't possible, at the moment).

Plea bargains 1, justice 0.

Maybe they can deport her to texas

Ahh... Homolka.

From the subject line, I thought you were complaining about Canada using capital punishment (which isn't possible, at the moment).
Pepole like Homolka make a good argument for it though...

Maybe they'll "let" her immigrate to the US...

She'll fit right in in SoCal.

Only if she's rich. If you're rich, you can kill people and have sex with little boys as much as you like. However, Scott Peterson found out that getting away with murder requires that you be rich.

At least the man will never be released, I know its a small mercy but hey.

She struck a deal with the courts to rat out her boyfriend who was likely a serial rapist in addition to the sex slayings for which they were both inevitably jailed. It was a controversial, hasty decision and not one liked by the public or by the courts in retrospect.

Not a very good pro-execution article since no one is talking about Bernardo getting out any time soon. A lesson learned by the authorities, though (I hope).

Courts everywhere are still biased about giving women the same severe punishment as they do to men. It is a practice that has to end.

When the DA made a deal with her to bring down her husband they didn't know how much she was involved. They thought she was scared into doing these things. When they found out that she was a willing participant, ity was too late to change her sentence.

She did serve the full 12 years of her sentence, which is rare in Canada. Most convict get off after 2/3rd of their prison term.

What else would you want us to do?

Only if she's rich. If you're rich, you can kill people and have sex with little boys as much as you like. However, Scott Peterson found out that getting away with murder requires that you be rich.
She's got a Psych degree... Give her 3months in SoCal and she'll BE rich.

Holy disingenuousness BatDork!


This "deal with the devil" has been one of the mostly hotly contested items in Canada. Expecting anyone here to defend it is rather idiotic.

Did the prosecution make the deal with this evil bitch? Yes. Did it happen BEFORE her level of involvement became apparent? Yes. Could they back out of the deal after making it without making it fucking impossible to ever make deals again with accomplices to nail a primary perp? No.

So we're stuck with it.

All of Canada would happily have that woman tossed into a foul pit for the rest of her natural life, or at least incarcerated that long just like her sicko hubby will be.



Mind you, I'll bet that the New york prosecuters office felt that way too way about Gravano(sp?) after they made the deal with him to get Gotti BEFORE finding out just what a murderous thug he was, and before you had to waste a shitload of money going after him for peddling drugs to kids where he settled after he was released to.


In a perfect word, every criminal would get what's due them.


Saddly, none of us live in that perfect fucking world.

When the DA made a deal with her to bring down her husband they didn't know how much she was involved. They thought she was scared into doing these things. When they found out that she was a willing participant, ity was too late to change her sentence.

She did serve the full 12 years of her sentence, which is rare in Canada. Most convict get off after 2/3rd of their prison term.

What else would you want us to do?
Put her on a sinking boat headed to Chicago?

Put her on a sinking boat headed to Chicago?
Agreed.

Put her on a sinking boat headed to Chicago?
I'll talk to some people, see if that can be arranged...

Everyone on this forum knows that Canada always does the right thing. :rolleyes:
The laws, and the penalties for this sort of thing DO need reforming, there is no doubt about that. They made the deal with her for a shorter sentence in return for testimony against her husband, BEFORE they found the video tapes. They were forced to stick with that deal, which is bullshit. They should have axed the deal, and gave her the maximum sentence.

I still don't support capital punishment, not in any case, not even this one. But that does not mean I support the 'punishment' she was given. She should have gotten an automatic life sentence, and I don't mean 25 years or less...LIFE SHOULD MEAN LIFE. Until they carry her out in a coffin, she should rot in that jail.

Yes, let's turn this into a discussion about the best way to kill her. :rolleyes:

Yes, let's turn this into a discussion about the best way to kill her. :rolleyes:
I particularly like the idea of a sinking boat to Chicago. Subtle, effective, she'll never be heard from ever again.


Or ship her to Compton and give her nothing but either Blue or Red clothes. And I mean head to toe blue/red clothing. Give her an unloaded pistol or something cute so they notice her faster. ;)

I still don't support capital punishment, not in any case, not even this one. But that does not mean I support the 'punishment' she was given. She should have gotten an automatic life sentence, and I don't mean 25 years or less...LIFE SHOULD MEAN LIFE. Until they carry her out in a coffin, she should rot in that jail.

The problem is that as long as a prisoner is alive, they can be released by a future government - regardless of how long a sentence you passed down. Some idiot in the future can commute the sentence, or grant clemency, however misguided that might appear to us.

The best way to make sure that someone doesn't do something again is to remove them permanently. And if killing the wrong person accidentally is the problem, then the problem is in the judicial and investigative system, not with the penalty.

If you're not willing to execute someone, that's fine. There are plenty of people who would gladly build the gallows.

The problem is that as long as a prisoner is alive, they can be released by a future government - regardless of how long a sentence you passed down. Some idiot in the future can commute the sentence, or grant clemency, however misguided that might appear to us.

The best way to make sure that someone doesn't do something again is to remove them permanently. And if killing the wrong person accidentally is the problem, then the problem is in the judicial and investigative system, not with the penalty.

If you're not willing to execute someone, that's fine. There are plenty of people who would gladly build the gallows.
I have no problem with the proposed penalty, or its execution. My objection lies in the total lack of willingness on the part of people to forgive. There is also a matter of reform, which is, as I understand it, pretty much a fantasy at its current stage, so I don't wonder that people scoff. I've heard some people cannot be reformed --nonsense. They are human beings; change is what we do best. (Well, that and naming things.)

The whole idea that she does not deserve forgivance is common, but not one I would consider to be the "right" attitude when dealing with our fellow humans. We take ourselves for granted far too often.

I particularly like the idea of a sinking boat to Chicago. Subtle, effective, she'll never be heard from ever again.

Or ship her to Compton and give her nothing but either Blue or Red clothes. And I mean head to toe blue/red clothing. Give her an unloaded pistol or something cute so they notice her faster. ;)
Hey, we folks from the Chicago/Gary area have a long and colourful history of the application of Cement Galoshes.... :D

Hey, we folks from the Chicago/Gary area have a long and colourful history of the application of Cement Galoshes.... :D
Or we could just always draft her...to IRAN!

I have no problem with the proposed penalty, or its execution. My objection lies in the total lack of willingness on the part of people to forgive. There is also a matter of reform, which is, as I understand it, pretty much a fantasy at its current stage, so I don't wonder that people scoff. I've heard some people cannot be reformed --nonsense. They are human beings; change is what we do best. (Well, that and naming things.)

The whole idea that she does not deserve forgivance is common, but not one I would consider to be the "right" attitude when dealing with our fellow humans. We take ourselves for granted far too often.
Paedophiles do not "reform". Ever. Their (convicted) recidivisim rate is near 100%. She participated in sexual molestation and murder of children - sounds like paedophilia to me.

I've heard that Karla Homolka will relocate in the Notre-Dame-de-Grace area in Montreal. That's good news. House prices will go down, at last, and this sector will become affordable again. :rolleyes:


BTW, I have worked in federal prisons for 2 years (computer stuff -- I have implemented the national database of sex offenders in 1996), and I have a good knowledge of the system.

The Canadian system is based on redemption, not punishment. People in prisons are constantly evaluated and follow lots of courses (both psychological and professional) in order to prepare their return to society. The ones showing genuine progress will go from Maximum to Medium security after a few years.

As for the sexual offenders, an electronic system called "plethysmograph" is used to record physical response to audio-visual stimuli (hard-core porn movies and cartoons, mostly). You can't lie to this system. If the guy/woman is still excited by deviant stuff, it will show up in the recordings.

One of the criminalist asked me if i'd like to try the "plethysmo" with a dummy (test) movie, it was quite embarrassing -- I said, "no thanks"!!!

I was quite impressed by the amount of research done on sexual offenders. The data they gather is very extensive (thousand of database fields, covering the psycho-social tests DSM III, DSM IV, as well as data on their crimes and backgrounds). Most of the stuff was pretty disgusting. For example, I can tell you that at least one criminal used his teeth to cut limbs on his victim. Other used scalpels, chainsaws, axes or kitchen knives. When you see actual data, it can really disturb you.

These sexual criminals are often the worse of the worse. Hopefully, we don't have to kill them. Some will serve a life in prison (if they don't show any progress), others will end up choosing chemical castration living with constraints (curfew, evaluations), and others will gradually reintegrate society.

Paedophiles do not "reform". Ever. Their (convicted) recidivisim rate is near 100%. She participated in sexual molestation and murder of children - sounds like paedophilia to me.

Actually it's generally placed between 40-50%, not any where near 100%. In some cases it gets much lower than that; apparently in Canada, inmates having received high levels of rehabilitation, coupled with community support, reached levels as low as 5-13%. which is pretty damn low, all things considered.

Actually it's generally placed between 40-50%, not any where near 100%. In some cases it gets much lower than that; apparently in Canada, inmates having received high levels of rehabilitation, coupled with community support, reached levels as low as 5-13%. which is pretty damn low, all things considered.

Dead criminals have a recidivism rate of 0%. You can't beat that.

Dead criminals have a recidivism rate of 0%. You can't beat that.
High five moment. Right there.

The problem is that as long as a prisoner is alive, they can be released by a future government - regardless of how long a sentence you passed down. Some idiot in the future can commute the sentence, or grant clemency, however misguided that might appear to us.



That may well be true in the US, however in Canada the separation between government and court is far more strictly maintained. Which is to say that we DON'T have some crappy system of letting the Prime Minister hand out pardons as a going away present from office the way you let your Presidents and Governors do. Sentances can only be overturned in the same place they were made - the courts.


For a sentance properly determined by the courts to be overturned on a fucking whim by some moronic partisan hack may be YOUR way of doing things, however it is NOT ours.

That may well be true in the US, however in Canada the separation between government and court is far more strictly maintained. Which is to say that we DON'T have some crappy system of letting the Prime Minister hand out pardons as a going away present from office the way you let your Presidents and Governors do. Sentances can only be overturned in the same place they were made - the courts.


For a sentance properly determined by the courts to be overturned on a fucking whim by some moronic partisan hack may be YOUR way of doing things, however it is NOT ours.

If the courts can overturn a sentence, then the probability that a prisoner may be released is greater than zero.

And once free, is free to commit crimes again. Criminals also commit crimes such as rape and murder behind bars.

I feel that in the case of felony rape, and any degree of child molestation, and first degree murder, that the offender needs to be eliminated.

It prevents the problem from recurring.

The whole idea that she does not deserve forgivance is common, but not one I would consider to be the "right" attitude when dealing with our fellow humans. We take ourselves for granted far too often.


Well, people might have a softer view of her had we any sort of notion that she felt a hint of remorse for her sins. She drugged her baby sister and offered her up to her boyfriend to rape as an engagement present for fucks sake, and this was VERY early in the relationship before any "battered spouse" crap that she tried to use as her excuse would have come into play.



You know, even if you were to "forgive" a rattlesnake for biting your ass because you understand that it was just being a rattlesnake, it doesn't mean that you do so in a manner that implies that you still want it hanging around your campground.....

Dead criminals have a recidivism rate of 0%. You can't beat that.

They have the same 'subsequent use to society' rate too. Where a reformed criminal can make a good and worthy contribution a dead one is good only for compost.

You know, even if you were to "forgive" a rattlesnake for biting your ass because you understand that it was just being a rattlesnake, it doesn't mean that you do so in a manner that implies that you still want it hanging around your campground.....

Usually, the snake ends up being beaten with a stick, or shot into two pieces.

If the courts can overturn a sentence, then the probability that a prisoner may be released is greater than zero.

And once free, is free to commit crimes again. Criminals also commit crimes such as rape and murder behind bars.

I feel that in the case of felony rape, and any degree of child molestation, and first degree murder, that the offender needs to be eliminated.

It prevents the problem from recurring.

Except for when you fuck up, in which case YOU just became the murderer.


Procedural or other errors possible to cause the overturning of a sentance can just as likely happen in death penalty cases you know. If reversible errors are made, they are made in either case, and indeed will likely go through the courts whatever the sentance - so that is a bullshit argument to my mind.


Suffice to say that we fall on opposite sides of the "kill 'em" debate, and that no amount of argument will change each other's minds.

The Canadian system is based on redemption, not punishment. People in prisons are constantly evaluated and follow lots of courses (both psychological and professional) in order to prepare their return to society. The ones showing genuine progress will go from Maximum to Medium security after a few years.

As for the sexual offenders, an electronic system called "plethysmograph" is used to record physical response to audio-visual stimuli (hard-core porn movies and cartoons, mostly). You can't lie to this system. If the guy/woman is still excited by deviant stuff, it will show up in the recordings.

One of the criminalist asked me if i'd like to try the "plethysmo" with a dummy (test) movie, it was quite embarrassing -- I said, "no thanks"!!!
This is totally alarming. I had no idea. Enjoying hard-core porn in the privacy of your home is okay, but if you're a sexual offender and you have any physical responses to erotica in prison, it can be a black mark against you? That's insane.

You know, even if you were to "forgive" a rattlesnake for biting your ass because you understand that it was just being a rattlesnake, it doesn't mean that you do so in a manner that implies that you still want it hanging around your campground.....
True enough, I wouldn't want rattlesnakes around the campground. However, a rattlesnake isn't in need of any forgivance, since it hasn't done anything wrong. It was just being a rattlesnake. Homolka, on the other hand, is a human and capable of doing "wrong" things.

Except for when you fuck up, in which case YOU just became the murderer.


It's the judicial system and investigative system that needs fixing, not the punishment end of things.

In this woman's case, I think it's crystal clear what level of crime she committed. I would have no problems throwing her off of a high building.

It's the judicial system and investigative system that needs fixing, not the punishment end of things.

In this woman's case, I think it's crystal clear what level of crime she committed. I would have no problems throwing her off of a high building.
Isn't that kind of like blaming a bad dinner on the growers instead of the recipe?

Or the cook? :)

The best way to make sure that someone doesn't do something again is to remove them permanently. And if killing the wrong person accidentally is the problem, then the problem is in the judicial and investigative system, not with the penalty.

Then when you get a perfect judicial and investigative system, you can execute people. It doesn't matter /where/ the flaw lies, if innocent people are being killed, you shouldn't be killing them. Would you accept failing an exam because the admin wrote your name wrong? Not getting a promotion because a traffic jam stopped you getting into work? Getting killed because someone screwed up investigating? 'Oh, it's okay,' you think as they sit you on the electric chair or whatever, 'the fault isn't in the execution, it's in the investigation. As long as I know that, I'm perfectly fine with dying.'

Anyone think that's likely?

Anyone think that's likely?

It works that way here in most US states.

I live in Virginia. Like Texas, we have an express lane for situations where it is quite certain that we've convicted the right person.

If I have you on film, with multiple witnesses, and your DNA at the scene, and your fingerprints on the gun, it only takes two years to get to the lethal injection.

There was a young man who killed a state trooper - the young man on video fired first. He was wounded by the state trooper.

Found the gun, with his fingerprints.
Matched the bullets that killed the trooper.
Felon's blood found at the scene of the crime.
The whole thing on video from beginning to end.

Still say that the death penalty is a bad idea? The trooper hadn't even finished with the sentence, "I'd like to see your driver's license and..."

before the man shot him.

What you Canadians on this thread don't seem to realize is that you're dealing with Americans here. Our first and only reponse to ANY topic, not just criminal justice, is "kill it!". It's all most of my countrymen seem to understand. My thought on this case is you should have locked her up and thrown away the key, plea bagain be damned. If you think you can rehabilitate her, fine, I hope you can. Maybe things are different up there. Posters from america are against that because it doesn't work here. Of course that's only because we don't really bother to try, but hey who cares, right? :rolleyes:

What you Canadians on fhis thread don't seem to realize is that you're dealing with Americans here. Our first and only reponse to ANY topic, not just criminal justice, is "kill it!". It's all most of my countrymen seem to understand. My thought on this case is you should have locked her up and thrown away the key, plea bagain be damned. If you think you can rehabilitate her, fine, I hope you can. Maybe things are different up there. Posters from america are against that because it doesn't work here. Of course that's only because we don't really bother to try, but hey who cares, right? :rolleyes:
*slaps you right across the face*

Ahh but it's a mere virtual slap. But you get my drift when you generalize, assume, and say rather stupid things.

This is totally alarming. I had no idea. Enjoying hard-core porn in the privacy of your home is okay, but if you're a sexual offender and you have any physical responses to erotica in prison, it can be a black mark against you? That's insane.

I think it's probably a bit deeper than that. I can control my arousal pretty well, maybe that's unusual but if I don't want to, I can usually ignore porn.

What you Canadians on fhis thread don't seem to realize is that you're dealing with Americans here. Our first and only reponse to ANY topic, not just criminal justice, is "kill it!". It's all most of my countrymen seem to understand. My thought on this case is you should have locked her up and thrown away the key, plea bagain be damned. If you think you can rehabilitate her, fine, I hope you can. Maybe things are different up there. Posters from america are against that because it doesn't work here. Of course that's only because we don't really bother to try, but hey who cares, right? :rolleyes:

There were considerable attempts during the heyday of no death penalty in America (also the heyday of rehabilitation attempts) through the 1960s and 1970s.

Culminating in many, many studies that showed that rehabilitation has a marginal effect, if any. Including studies by Samenow that proved that most rehabilitation has no effect at all - in fact, it often has the opposite effect.

You really should read, "Inside the Criminal Mind" by Samenow.

Hopefully, we don't have to kill them. Some will serve a life in prison (if they don't show any progress), others will end up choosing chemical castration living with constraints (curfew, evaluations), and others will gradually reintegrate society.and... other will be free in only 12 years...after they make a rat "deal" with the prosecution...

This is totally alarming. I had no idea. Enjoying hard-core porn in the privacy of your home is okay, but if you're a sexual offender and you have any physical responses to erotica in prison, it can be a black mark against you? That's insane.
Hey, but it works really fine. Your body can't lie.

This test is not mandatory, but sexual offenders who choose to pass it increase their chances of getting out earlier.



PS: In Canada, there are two parallel prison systems. Federal prisons, called "penitenciers" or "institutions", are for hard criminals. Provincial prisons are for terms that are shorter than 2 years. The federal system have security levels: maximum (only in regional "evaluation centers" such as the one in Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines where I worked), high, medium, low (day or night centers).

The problem is that as long as a prisoner is alive, they can be released by a future government - regardless of how long a sentence you passed down. Some idiot in the future can commute the sentence, or grant clemency, however misguided that might appear to us.
There is no "political" pardon system in Canada.

The Parole Board is part of the Correctional Services of Canada (CSC-SCC).
Members of this board typically have decades of experience in prisons (as directors, criminalists or social workers).


For a heart-wrenching view on rapists-murderers, their victims, and the Parole Board, watch the canadian movie:
"THE FIVE OF US" ("Elles étaient cinq")
http://www.hamiltonfilmfestival.com/2005/selections/ellesetaintcinq.php
(English text at the bottom of the page.)

*slaps you right across the face*

Ahh but it's a mere virtual slap. But you get my drift when you generalize, assume, and say rather stupid things.


Thanks for the flaming. Can't stand it when someone disagrees, eh?