NationStates Jolt Archive

Anyone else that has or is part of the ongoing threads about religion (specifically on the atheist side) noticing themselves reverting to “cop outs” or at least the wish to do so.

More and more in the arguments I find myself wanting to give short sometimes mildly funny but unsupported quips rather then a reasoned argument lately. Our version of the “but I know god loves me” or other factually unsupported argument that we seem to see from the religious side (not saying that is a bad thing faith is really factually unsupported evidence so there is no real way to get around that in an argument about religion)

Example … while I truly believe this I really have a tendency to want to say and leave it at that rather then continuing the argument

“Salvation by faith does not fit with my morals … any god that is going to base my future on some seemingly un important point … (why does god care if you believe in him) does not fit with my morals and I could not possibly worship him”

while I believe this I find myself resorting to it sometimes rather then taking the argument into the area of their understanding of their own religion

Its just feels like a cop out to me anyways. No matter how personally true it is.


Anyways my question was is anyone feeling this lately as well just going “this is what I think and so be it” rather then reasoning through arguments? (don’t mean this to be a “religious threads suck rant but more just seeing if other atheists or agnostics find ourselves with the urge to pull or version of the “whatever it takes faith” argument rather then reasoning it out

Frankly, I just ignore the faith threads.


Faith is what faith is, an belief system that must be taken to heart with an absence of proof. Therefore arguing who's unsupported assertions are correct is just about as pointless as arguing over which disco band sucked the worst.... when they all did.


My beliefs (and/or lack thereof) are my own. You won't change 'em no matter how fucking hard you try, and I can't be bothered to give a long dissertation on why I arrived at them nor would it satisfy anyone with a different beliefe set anyway.



So yeah, flip answers on that subject is all you'd ever get out of me. Might as well amuse myself after all...

I know the feeling well. When I first started on the boards--heck, online--I gave full explanations, and even wrote in complete sentences. After a while, all the head-bashing gets to you.

Now I more often offer a tidbit, thinking "if they want to know more, they'll ask; otherwise, who really cares."

Anyone else that has or is part of the ongoing threads about religion (specifically on the atheist side) noticing themselves reverting to “cop outs” or at least the wish to do so.

More and more in the arguments I find myself wanting to give short sometimes mildly funny but unsupported quips rather then a reasoned argument lately. Our version of the “but I know god loves me” or other factually unsupported argument that we seem to see from the religious side (not saying that is a bad thing faith is really factually unsupported evidence so there is no real way to get around that in an argument about religion)

Example … while I truly believe this I really have a tendency to want to say and leave it at that rather then continuing the argument

“Salvation by faith does not fit with my morals … any god that is going to base my future on some seemingly un important point … (why does god care if you believe in him) does not fit with my morals and I could not possibly worship him”

while I believe this I find myself resorting to it sometimes rather then taking the argument into the area of their understanding of their own religion

Its just feels like a cop out to me anyways. No matter how personally true it is.


Anyways my question was is anyone feeling this lately as well just going “this is what I think and so be it” rather then reasoning through arguments? (don’t mean this to be a “religious threads suck rant but more just seeing if other atheists or agnostics find ourselves with the urge to pull or version of the “whatever it takes faith” argument rather then reasoning it out

It takes a isolated enviroment and a great deal of time to convince someone who has enstilled beliefs to change them. Even then, they have to believe that it is them, not you who has found the different path. The best you can hope to do without complete control over the individual is to plant a seed of doubt.

I know the feeling well. When I first started on the boards--heck, online--I gave full explanations, and even wrote in complete sentences. After a while, all the head-bashing gets to you.

Now I more often offer a tidbit, thinking "if they want to know more, they'll ask; otherwise, who really cares."
I agree I find myself just coming in for the strong answers … something that has a strait up logical flaw rather then long drawn out high caliber posts that no one reads through .

Most of the time, I think up some grand argument, start to write it down, and then I think, "Why do I even care?" and delete it.
So then I write in shit like "My mom says theres alot of black people in Africa."

More and more in the arguments I find myself wanting to give short sometimes mildly funny but unsupported quips rather then a reasoned argument lately.

Then you have learned the final, and most important, lesson in internet interraction. Congratulations. You are now granted the title "Master".

Then you have learned the final, and most important, lesson in internet interraction. Congratulations. You are now granted the title "Master".
:fluffle: *takes a bow*

Most of the time, I think up some grand argument, start to write it down, and then I think, "Why do I even care?" and delete it.
So then I write in shit like "My mom says theres alot of black people in Africa."
Hahaha. Well, that cheered me up.

Frankly, I just ignore the faith threads.

But... taunting mormons is JUST SO FUN!

But... taunting mormons is JUST SO FUN!
If you find that fun I would recommend reading through forum rules … with taunting it is REAL easy to troll or flame and will likely get you warned or deated

God help me I actually enjoy attacking religious dogma... I could write long and uninteresting posts all day.

God help me I actually enjoy attacking religious dogma... I could write long and uninteresting posts all day.
Oh I do too normaly but latly (8 k posts and all ... and I am NOT a social thread poster nor am I a spamer ... ) Geting tired and relizing the short answer is easier and usualy gets the better response

It's not real practical to have a place to point to, where our philosophies are listed, so we don't have keep repeating ourselves, and even if there was, few would use it ...but it would be nice.

It's not real practical to have a place to point to, where our philosophies are listed, so we don't have keep repeating ourselves, and even if there was, few would use it ...but it would be nice.
Hey if you want to type up a document that describes you :) something about your beliefs or thoughts I would be more then happy to host all such documents on my web server so you can just go 'Linky ... this is what I believe)

Linky, ...i believe that children are the future, teach them well and they will lead the way

Linky, ...i believe that children are the future, teach them well and they will lead the way
I meant more like a document stating all your beliefs that you can link to ... or break them up into groups like one page for religios one for political one for personal

Hey if you want to type up a document that describes you :) something about your beliefs or thoughts I would be more then happy to host all such documents on my web server so you can just go 'Linky ... this is what I believe)
That is an excellent idea, and I may very well take you up on it.

On second thought, it seems kind of cheap --another cop out. "I make this statement, which you may or may not understand --but if you have some time, click here to wade through a bunch of information and, perhaps, see where I'm coming from."

Better to get back into the habit of explaining myself real-time. :)

On second thought, it seems kind of cheap --another cop out. "I make this statement, which you may or may not understand --but if you have some time, click here to wade through a bunch of information and, perhaps, see where I'm coming from."

Better to get back into the habit of explaining myself real-time. :)
True but some of the bigger ideas we could break down so it is not just one massive page

it really would be nice to have some of the argument responses avalible to call on

That is an excellent idea, and I may very well take you up on it.
Let me know ... i have always been meaning to do it myself but I never seem to get around to it (a lot of work) and I know how hard it is acuratly depict a state of mind exactly in understandable terms

Anyone else that has or is part of the ongoing threads about religion (specifically on the atheist side) noticing themselves reverting to “cop outs” or at least the wish to do so.

More and more in the arguments I find myself wanting to give short sometimes mildly funny but unsupported quips rather then a reasoned argument lately. Our version of the “but I know god loves me” or other factually unsupported argument that we seem to see from the religious side (not saying that is a bad thing faith is really factually unsupported evidence so there is no real way to get around that in an argument about religion)

Example … while I truly believe this I really have a tendency to want to say and leave it at that rather then continuing the argument

“Salvation by faith does not fit with my morals … any god that is going to base my future on some seemingly un important point … (why does god care if you believe in him) does not fit with my morals and I could not possibly worship him”

while I believe this I find myself resorting to it sometimes rather then taking the argument into the area of their understanding of their own religion

Its just feels like a cop out to me anyways. No matter how personally true it is.


Anyways my question was is anyone feeling this lately as well just going “this is what I think and so be it” rather then reasoning through arguments? (don’t mean this to be a “religious threads suck rant but more just seeing if other atheists or agnostics find ourselves with the urge to pull or version of the “whatever it takes faith” argument rather then reasoning it out


It's really not a cop out. I suspect that the longer reasoned arguement is more of a cop out, since it doesnt require you to admit to having any faith in your atheism, and doesn't force you to admit that you have no more positive evidence for the absence of god than you do positive evidence for the presence of god. I honestly think that in thelogical discussions like that, unless there is some apparent logical contradiction in one or the other persons beliefs, which is being drawn out and debated, it cannot be resolved save by differing pithy statements of belief.

<edit>Resolution does not require agreement, merely acceptance of the nature of the difference. </edit>

It's really not a cop out. I suspect that the longer reasoned arguement is more of a cop out, since it doesnt require you to admit to having any faith in your atheism, and doesn't force you to admit that you have no more positive evidence for the absence of god than you do positive evidence for the presence of god. I honestly think that in thelogical discussions like that, unless there is some apparent logical contradiction in one or the other persons beliefs, which is being drawn out and debated, it cannot be resolved save by differing pithy statements of belief.
Well I am technically agnostic (and soft atheist) I really don’t put too much belief in anything.

I was not trying to relate to belief between the two rather going with a short copout statement rather then a reasoned argument (rather then stating why you feel that way just cutting it short and saying it)


At least with me everything (mostly) is reasoned out in some form or another so taking the cop out really is not representing what I feel nor being true to myself … in certain cases yes but I find myself resorting to what should be a last ditch effort more then is nessisary

My first experience with online arguments in either chat room or BBS or whatever forum began in 1997 with the purchase of my first computer. Since then, I've come across a multitude of opportunities to expound upon the growing and changin nature of my faith. Lately, though, I've found that it's really tiresome. I find myself reserving comment until I've met someone who is genuinely curious.

It's not just about the religious threads, either. I enjoy explaining things -- it's my job as a teacher -- but something always tells me that the seven paragraph essay I've just knocked out will be largely ignored and scrolled over in favor of the shorter, pithier comments. Which is fine because that's the nature of teh beast for the most part. I suppose that it's now a matter of whether or not getting my complete opinion across is worth it.

More often than not, it isn't. So I sit back and read. Hence the low post count.

Anyone else that has or is part of the ongoing threads about religion (specifically on the atheist side) noticing themselves reverting to “cop outs” or at least the wish to do so.

More and more in the arguments I find myself wanting to give short sometimes mildly funny but unsupported quips rather then a reasoned argument lately. Our version of the “but I know god loves me” or other factually unsupported argument that we seem to see from the religious side (not saying that is a bad thing faith is really factually unsupported evidence so there is no real way to get around that in an argument about religion)

Example … while I truly believe this I really have a tendency to want to say and leave it at that rather then continuing the argument

“Salvation by faith does not fit with my morals … any god that is going to base my future on some seemingly un important point … (why does god care if you believe in him) does not fit with my morals and I could not possibly worship him”

while I believe this I find myself resorting to it sometimes rather then taking the argument into the area of their understanding of their own religion

Its just feels like a cop out to me anyways. No matter how personally true it is.


Anyways my question was is anyone feeling this lately as well just going “this is what I think and so be it” rather then reasoning through arguments? (don’t mean this to be a “religious threads suck rant but more just seeing if other atheists or agnostics find ourselves with the urge to pull or version of the “whatever it takes faith” argument rather then reasoning it out

Hey, UT, I can identify, though from the other side of the argument. I know you believe there is little evidence in favor or faith, I see it more as a different way of interpreting the existing evidence. Either way, repeatedly going over the same basic points, with people who are more interested in changing your mind or so rooted in what they believe that they will not change their mind, can be very trying and I too, want to just give the quick simple answers rather than rehashing the details over and over for people who seem either unwilling or unable to understand a perspective different from their own.

I'm glad that there are people like you who at least take the time to hear the other side of an issue before going there. I know it is a pain sometimes, but in the end, if we don't communicate and try to understand others we end up missing out on a lot of life and live with in group and out group biases that may be particularly detrimental to the greater good. Don't give up just because it is frustrating.

i have a certain amount of respect for those who can make a long well composed post on a subject.

its just too much effort for me.

i cant be bothered to put that much effort into something that is going to be utterly ignored.

to me, a person should think about the ideas that are expressed and think about them. this is as easy with a one liner as a 5000 word exposition. for example, my "why doesnt intelligent design lead you to hinduism as much as christianity?" should cause the reader to THINK about the implications of that. if it doesnt, why would the 5000 word post on the history of religion make them think?

so ill make my point, in a line or 2 then someone will post the same ideas put WELL into a paragraph or 2. maybe the readers can choose which one they pay attention to and everyone is covered.

or maybe i just saved time since all people are really doing is composing their next post while they peruse the current ones without absorbing any information at all.

Hey, UT, I can identify, though from the other side of the argument. I know you believe there is little evidence in favor or faith, I see it more as a different way of interpreting the existing evidence. Either way, repeatedly going over the same basic points, with people who are more interested in changing your mind or so rooted in what they believe that they will not change their mind, can be very trying and I too, want to just give the quick simple answers rather than rehashing the details over and over for people who seem either unwilling or unable to understand a perspective different from their own.

I'm glad that there are people like you who at least take the time to hear the other side of an issue before going there. I know it is a pain sometimes, but in the end, if we don't communicate and try to understand others we end up missing out on a lot of life and live with in group and out group biases that may be particularly detrimental to the greater good. Don't give up just because it is frustrating.
Thank you sir I did not mean to try to exclude the religious side of things … but you guys do have in the end a valid “belief” argument rather then a reasoned through (don’t mean that to sound bad but cant think of a better way to explain it)

Where as a lot of us logic is how we ended up where we are … (at least our version) we SHOULD be able to explain how we arrived where we do (not saying we don’t have belief in something but it just seems like we should be able to accurately explain some of the discrepancies)
As such I get tired of explainin them lol
(anyways I know this will sound bad … I re-typed it like 4 times and it still does not sound right)

I'm an agnostic so I don't really care so much, I mostly pick on arguments that suck for either side.

I'm an agnostic so I don't really care so much, I mostly pick on arguments that suck for either side.
I am too and usually do the same … but end up fighting the atheistic side more then the religious side most days

Thank you sir I did not mean to try to exclude the religious side of things … but you guys do have in the end a valid “belief” argument rather then a reasoned through (don’t mean that to sound bad but cant think of a better way to explain it)

Where as a lot of us logic is how we ended up where we are … (at least our version) we SHOULD be able to explain how we arrived where we do (not saying we don’t have belief in something but it just seems like we should be able to accurately explain some of the discrepancies)
As such I get tired of explainin them lol
(anyways I know this will sound bad … I re-typed it like 4 times and it still does not sound right)

That's okay my friend. I still believe that my belief system is just as logical as any other. To believe in science/human observation takes inexplicable faith in the same way believing in anything else does, IMO. The reality is, since none of us has the capacity to recognize absolute truth, we are all left with what we chose to believe/believe in, ultimately.

You chose to believe human observation as the highest means of knowledge aquisition, I do not. There are logically valid reasons for both, it is a matter of choice for both of us. In the end we could both be living on specs of salt on some higher beings saltine cracker with a complete incapacity to know any better. I can't prove otherwise and neither can you, still we both believe that is unlikely due to how absurd and unmeasurable it sound to us.

That's okay my friend. I still believe that my belief system is just as logical as any other. To believe in science/human observation takes inexplicable faith in the same way believing in anything else does, IMO. The reality is, since none of us has the capacity to recognize absolute truth, we are all left with what we chose to believe/believe in, ultimately.

You chose to believe human observation as the highest means of knowledge aquisition, I do not. There are logically valid reasons for both, it is a matter of choice for both of us. In the end we could both be living on specs of salt on some higher beings saltine cracker with a complete incapacity to know any better. I can't prove otherwise and neither can you, still we both believe that is unlikely due to how absurd and unmeasurable it sound to us.
Very true … and with all these possible (from our viewpoints) “correct” paths I absolutely believe that if there is a god he will not make faith the cornerstone of our salvation.