NationStates Jolt Archive

I do have a question.

First of all, I was baptised and confirmed as a Roman Catholic, although these days I call myself a Practical Christian Theorist - the point? Well, as I was learning about my own faith (that at the time beign RC) I discovered that Christmas, Easter, St. Valentines and Halloween were all stolen from the Pagans by the Catholic church.

I would go into further detail, but I have stuff to do, although I will be sure to ellaborate on this point later.

Anyway, my question is, how do you feel about the fact that the Catholic church has taken all of these dates from the Pagans and made them their own?

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Great idea for having the thread.

Until next time

Throwing in my two cents as a Pagan: It pisses me off to no end that that happened, simply to convert people (attempt to, anyways), and that they've become a perversion of their original meanings, in the minds of the majority of people. Even alot of Pagans I've met (or,rather, those claiming to be) don't know the true origins of the holidays.

What's worse, most think that they are Christian days. People're more than welcome to create their own religious days, but to steal from another, to try to bring in more followers, or to deceive the current converts into thinking that their former religions are also important (When I've found this isn't the case) is rather low.

Meh, as long as you Pagans dont come dancing nekkid down the road in a drunken stupor weilding flames I'm fine. I'm not a big fan of the pagan religions, but who am I to complain? It's a free country(As long as you don't live in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Zimbabwe, China, North Korea, Cuba, and a few African dictatorships). Just remember: burn down my house, I burn down your forest :).

Throwing in my two cents as a Pagan: It pisses me off to no end that that happened, simply to convert people (attempt to, anyways), and that they've become a perversion of their original meanings, in the minds of the majority of people. Even alot of Pagans I've met (or,rather, those claiming to be) don't know the true origins of the holidays.

What's worse, most think that they are Christian days. People're more than welcome to create their own religious days, but to steal from another, to try to bring in more followers, or to deceive the current converts into thinking that their former religions are also important (When I've found this isn't the case) is rather low.

It may be low, but they were very succesfull. You guys have, what, a few million followers at most(NOT counting the Eastern and African religions)? And what do the Christians have? 2 billion. I'm not saying they're right, but you guys weren't exactly good at trying to recruit Christians. Even when you had the upper hand, they beat you.

It may be low, but they were very succesfull. You guys have, what, a few million followers at most(NOT counting the Eastern and African religions)? And what do the Christians have? 2 billion. I'm not saying they're right, but you guys weren't exactly good at trying to recruit Christians. Even when you had the upper hand, they beat you.

You're right, they were successful at keeping their followers, and getting more, but we are making a come back, albeit centuries later.

I think that the loss of Pagan beliefs and its followers being dominant in Europe was caused by a few problems. 1) They were a bit wary of outsiders, probably due to repeated invasions by various forces. 2) Pagans haven't ever had a history of really converting, or attempting to convert, other people. It tended to happen when foreigners would move into their territories in small groups, gradually assimilating the local lore and what not. 3) Even those who did convert, were looked at with some distrust, at least in the first generation.

/end possible threadjack.

You're right, they were successful at keeping their followers, and getting more, but we are making a come back, albeit centuries later.

I think that the loss of Pagan beliefs and its followers being dominant in Europe was caused by a few problems. 1) They were a bit wary of outsiders, probably due to repeated invasions by various forces. 2) Pagans haven't ever had a history of really converting, or attempting to convert, other people. It tended to happen when foreigners would move into their territories in small groups, gradually assimilating the local lore and what not. 3) Even those who did convert, were looked at with some distrust, at least in the first generation.

/end possible threadjack.

However, I doubt that Western Paganism will ever make a big comeback. People are just too used to the Abrahimic Religions, Hinduism, and Buddhism. Paganism will become just one of those "other" religions, like Bahai, Druze, Shintoism, etc.

Also, religion itself is in decline in the West, so me no thinks that Paganism will come back in force if people won't stay in the modern religons, they wont convert to what are seen as archaic religions.

However, I doubt that Western Paganism will ever make a big comeback. People are just too used to the Abrahimic Religions, Hinduism, and Buddhism. Paganism will become just one of those "other" religions, like Bahai, Druze, Shintoism, etc.

Also, religion itself is in decline in the West, so me no thinks that Paganism will come back in force if people won't stay in the modern religons, they wont convert to what are seen as archaic religions.

I agree that it won't be what it used to be, but I think that its numbers will increase, but still will remain in a relative minority.

I'd classify Christianity as "archaic" given its age, though still new, compared to some religious faiths. That goes on relatively strong and may well continue to do so. I think that it's more of an issue being afraid of change and what they perceive as "new".

I agree that it won't be what it used to be, but I think that its numbers will increase, but still will remain in a relative minority.

I'd classify Christianity as "archaic" given its age, though still new, compared to some religious faiths. That goes on relatively strong and may well continue to do so. I think that it's more of an issue being afraid of change and what they perceive as "new".

I'd have to disagree. It's not that they're afraid of change, but they don't want to go what is seen of as "back" in terms of sprituality. Modern religions are seen as the enhancements of Paganism, basically they took the good things out of Paganism, added more good stuff, took some stuff from Zoroastrianism, and Voila! You get the Abrahimic religions.

Also, "archaic" is, by definition, "an early period or archaeological culture preceding a 'classical period'". Paganism came before the Classical Period, so Christianity wouldn't be Archaic.

I'd have to disagree. It's not that they're afraid of change, but they don't want to go what is seen of as "back" in terms of sprituality. Modern religions are seen as the enhancements of Paganism, basically they took the good things out of Paganism, added more good stuff, took some stuff from Zoroastrianism, and Voila! You get the Abrahimic religions.

Also, "archaic" is, by definition, "an early period or archaeological culture preceding a 'classical period'". Paganism came before the Classical Period, so Christianity wouldn't be Archaic.

I can see why you'd disagree, and how people would think of converting to Pagan beliefs as reverting to a more "primitive" belief system. It's a more Nature centred belief system, and probably seems more "Simple" at first glance. As to modern religions being enhancements, it's all relative to your point of view. *grins*

Oh, I know the definition, but I was using the more standard common usage. I don't believe Christianity old in any sense, but I'm sure that a large number of others do.

Also, I'm going to ask for a split request, so this won't further threadjack.

I can see why you'd disagree, and how people would think of converting to Pagan beliefs as reverting to a more "primitive" belief system. It's a more Nature centred belief system, and probably seems more "Simple" at first glance. As to modern religions being enhancements, it's all relative to your point of view. *grins*

Oh, I know the definition, but I was using the more standard common usage. I don't believe Christianity old in any sense, but I'm sure that a large number of others do.

Also, I'm going to ask for a split request, so this won't further threadjack.
Paganism is the fastest growing faith in the UK.( apart it seems from Jedis :rolleyes: ) In the 2001 census Pagans outnumbered Ba'hai and a lot of other wellknown religions. And these were just the people who were prepared to put "other - Pagan" in the religion box.
A lot don't shout about it.
People are attracted to the "simple". I meet people all the time who are facinated by my faith and really do want to know more.

here are the figures from the Census. sorry they're so big but I don't have a link to them, just a hard copy.

* Christian
37046500

None
7274290

Religion Not Stated
4010658

Muslim (Islam)
1546626

Hindu
552421

Jedi Knight
390127

Sikh
329358

Jewish
259927

Buddhist
144453

Jehovah's Witness
70651

Methodist
33519

Spiritualist
32404

Roman Catholic
31836

Pagan
30569

Church of England
27985

Greek Orthodox
24176

Other Religions
22797

Other Religion (not described)
19306

Baptist
16467

Jain
15132

Agnostic
14909

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons)
12722

Atheist
10357

Orthodox Church
8863

Humanist
8297

Wicca
7227

Pentecostal
6880

Seventh Day Adventist
6757

Salvation Army
6734

Religious Society of Friends (Quakers)
6171

Rastafarian
4692

Baha ' I
4645

Church of Scotland
3990

Unitarian
3987

Zoroastrian
3738

Taoist
3532

Own Belief System
3259

Protestant
3151

Christadelphian
2368

Independent
2038

Church of God
1912

Believe in God
1821

Scientology
1781

Druidism
1657

Pantheism
1603

Satanism
1525

Lutheran
1524

Christian Spiritualist Church
1461

Chapel
1227

Anglican
1134

Apostolic Church
1133

Presbyterian
1110

Russian Orthodox Church
1081

Serbian Orthodox Church
1076

Church in Wales
1030

United Reformed Church
990

Universalist
971

New Age
906

Brethren
731

Evangelical
640

Hare Krishna
640

Deist
639

Christian Scientist
578

Free Thinker
568

Congregational Church
530

Non Denominational
520

Celtic Pagan
508

Theism
505

Church
468

Church of Christ
452

The Methodist Church in Wales
450

Eckankar
426

Animism
401

Independent Evangelist
349

Brahma Kumaris
331

Nonconformist
321

Moravian
318

Heathen
278

Raja Yoga
261

Druze
260

Unification Church
252

Native American Church
234

Coptic Orthodox Church
232

Free Church of Scotland
193

Dutch Reformed Church
169

Mysticism
158

Church of Ireland
150

Chinese Religions
148

Church of God Of Prophecy
137

Vodun
123

Greek Catholic
118

Realist
104

Ukrainian Orthodox Church
102

Eastern Orthodox Church
100

Occult
99

Ancestor Worship
98

Asatru
93

Elim Church
91

Ecumenical
88

Ukrainian Catholic
83

Confucianist
83

Episcopalian
72

Church of All Religion
70

Presbyterian Church in Wales
64

Assemblies of God
56

Free Evangelical Church
56

Scottish Presbyterian
55

Sant Mat
53

Free Church of Love
49

Church of Prophecy
47

Scottish Episcopal Church
47

Child of God
46

Monk
46

Protestant (Mixed)
46

Independent Methodist
41

Unitarian-Universalist
39

Interdenominational
37

Rationalist
37

Bible Pattern Church
35

Reformed
33

Non Sectarian
31

British Israelite
30

Church of the Nazarene
28

African Methodist
27

Free Presbyterian
27

Christian Fellowship
25

Full Gospel Assembly
25

Amish
24

Mennonite
24

Divine Lightmission
21

Santeri
21

Charismatic
20

Celtic Christian
20

Evangelical Presbyterian Church
19

Free Methodist
19

Faith Mission
17

City Mission
11

Secularist
11

United Free Church of Scotland
10

Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland
8

Day Church of God
8

Orthodox Catholic Church
7

Catholic Apostolic Church
5

Bulgarian Orthodox Church
5

Non-Subscribing Presbyterian
4

United Brethren
4

United Church of Canada
4

Tin Tao
4

Presbyterian Church in Ireland
3

Brethren in Christ
3

Celtic Orthodox Church
3

Church of the Living God
3

Emmanuel Mission
3

Evangelical Alliance
3

Four Square Gospel
3

House Church
3

Orthodox Presbyterian
3

Presbyterian Secession Church
3

Reformed Presbyterian
3

Whitewell Metropolitan Tabernacle
3

Church of Harmony
3

Internationalist
3

Friggin Druids.

In the 2001 census Pagans outnumbered Ba'hai and a lot of other wellknown religions...

But of those listed below Pagan, 76 are Christian sects and are only listed because some people wanted to be more specific than the 37,000,000 who put Christian. Several of the others are also just clarifications of a minority position within a larger faith. In reality, Jedi, Pagan, Wicca, Baha'i and a few others are very, very marginal.

Four Square Gospel
3

*Next meeting of the Four Square Gospel*

Ok, which one of you didn't put your faith on the sheet!?!

I like some of the low-numbering 'joke' answers like 'Heathen' :)

Woah, there are more Jedis and there are Jews!

I didn't realise that sane people (Atheists) were in that much of a minority... how depressing!

The Jedi thing was a cynical attempt by certain persons to screw with the census, and it succeeded, apparently, in getting 300,000+ idiots to go along with it. Extremely productive and worthwhile when we live in a world where real religious bodies suffer considerable persecution.

The Jedi thing was a cynical attempt by certain persons to screw with the census, and it succeeded, apparently, in getting 300,000+ idiots to go along with it. Extremely productive and worthwhile when we live in a world where real religious bodies suffer considerable persecution.

They should be persecuted... most of them are very, very evil.

However, I doubt that Western Paganism will ever make a big comeback. People are just too used to the Abrahimic Religions, Hinduism, and Buddhism. Paganism will become just one of those "other" religions, like Bahai , Druze, Shintoism, etc.

-snip-

Actually, the Bahai Faith comes from the same lineage as the Abrahamic Religions. The Bahai Faith holds to the principle of Progressive Revelation, where every so often a manifestation of God appears among the people to take them on the next step down the spiritual/religious path. Its goes something like this: Judaism was followed by Christianity, Christianity was followed by Islam and Islam was followed by the Bahai Faith and so forth. The Bahai Faith is closely intertwined with the ideas and tennets of Islam and was seen in part as response to the corruption and sycophancy of the Mohameddan clergy at the time it first emerged. At the moment is is one of those "Other Religions" but if all unfolds as Bahias would like it to, it will someday be a major worldwide religion. In Africa and India, there is a MUCH larger proportion of the population followng the Bahai Faith than there is here. Its really only the Christian West that doesn't have much of a clue what the Bahai Faith is. In the MIddle East however, people know of it only through the self-serving propaganda of the Imams and Mullahs, whose very existence is threatened by the Bahai Faith (In a nutshell, it repudiates damn near evrything the Shia clergy use as justification for their power) [/HIJACK]

OK, I should of posted somekind of analysis with those results.
The Christians of all brands do of course lead the field but pagans of all brands include wiccans, druids, heathens, probably deists (if I knew what they might be) a lot of agnostics and lots of those other small groups.
almost as interesting are "none" and "not stated". these are really people who haven't thoght it out at all (else they'd be athiests?)
With all the different types of pagan listed we do come higher than the Bahai's but they get more Recognition as a "real" religion than we do.

I attend a druid grove near Loughborough and we have new members at every rite.
I think people are begining to see that the major, middle eastern religions are out dated, male dominated and cause friction in the world whereas earth based religions strive to avoid friction where possible.
(unless you want to build a road through my wood) :D

They should be persecuted... most of them are very, very evil.


Oh the irony :rolleyes:

Oh the irony :rolleyes:

Irony is fun, but using hot irons for torture is much better! :D

And that, children, is why the Hare Krishna are totally gay.

However, I doubt that Western Paganism will ever make a big comeback. People are just too used to the Abrahimic Religions, Hinduism, and Buddhism. Paganism will become just one of those "other" religions, like Bahai, Druze, Shintoism, etc.

Also, religion itself is in decline in the West, so me no thinks that Paganism will come back in force if people won't stay in the modern religons, they wont convert to what are seen as archaic religions.

I don't think any amount of Christian violence will ever be able to completely eradicate the more Earth-based types of spirituality - particularly as it becomes more apparent what a cancer we humans are becoming to our environment. Oh, Christians have given it a good try - what with the Crusades and Inquisitions and all. But at some point everything has to come back into balance, and if the human species is to survive at all, we need to learn to live within the ecosystem of which we are only a small part, rather than try to conquer it. Methinks Christianity is not going to achieve that - ever.

And that, children, is why the Hare Krishna are totally gay.

what the hell are they anyway?

What's worse, most think that they are Christian days. People're more than welcome to create their own religious days, but to steal from another, to try to bring in more followers, or to deceive the current converts into thinking that their former religions are also important (When I've found this isn't the case) is rather low.

It's called marketing. The Catholic Church created all of these overlaid religious holidays as a marketing ploy.

Anyway, my question is, how do you feel about the fact that the Catholic church has taken all of these dates from the Pagans and made them their own?
I think it's marvelous. By chosing those days for their festivities and allowing the continuation of pagan rituals, the church has allowed at least some of the old ways to remain alive and honoured all these centuries, in the hearts of practitioners. Otherwise, they would have faded from the collective cultural memory long ago, replaced by the dominant religion, which otherwise has little or no ritual that can be enacted by commoners (requires a priest).

It's not like the church had a choice, though. The people would not surrender their old ways, so incorporating them was the most efficient and easy way to compromise.

isnt the whole "catholic church/ christianity stealing pagan holidays" kinda water under the dam at this point? after a thousand years or so the sting should wear off. after a thousand years or so cant they just be considered christian holidays no matter how they got started?

I like some of the low-numbering 'joke' answers like 'Heathen' :)

Heathen refers to Norse and Germanic Paganism/Odinism/Asatru or whatever you like to call it.

isnt the whole "catholic church/ christianity stealing pagan holidays" kinda water under the dam at this point? after a thousand years or so the sting should wear off. after a thousand years or so cant they just be considered christian holidays no matter how they got started?
Nope.

isnt the whole "catholic church/ christianity stealing pagan holidays" kinda water under the dam at this point? after a thousand years or so the sting should wear off. after a thousand years or so cant they just be considered christian holidays no matter how they got started?

Not as long as there are Christians who are still so completely ignorant of the origins of "their" holidays that they will loudly complain about the way some people are "paganizing" their "Christian" holidays.

Not as long as there are Christians who are still so completely ignorant of the origins of "their" holidays that they will loudly complain about the way some people are "paganizing" their "Christian" holidays.

Agreed. As I've stated, a large number of people honestly believe that the holidays are Christian, when they're not. If the Christians were to create their own celebrations, and they happened the same day, I'd not care. I'm all for people having their own religious holidays, celebrations and whatnot, but I don't think that you should take credit for someone else's event.

what the hell are they anyway?

I really don't know. I just like to say that. They are probably just as normal/fucked up as everyone else.

I wish when a thread I was subscribed to got split off I had been informed in some way. :rolleyes: Does anyone know of a way to subscribe to a thread without posting a coment?