NationStates Jolt Archive


Should dogmatic religions strive to make themselves obsolete ?

The Alma Mater
19-06-2005, 14:20
The question in the title is loosely based on my last post in the "athiesm" topic. The -very simplified- reasoning behind it:

- When a child is young parents often tell them what to do or not to do by giving simple, direct orders. Like "do not steal cookies from your sister". Sometimes scare tactics are used: "stay away from the wall outlet or you will get a shock and die".
- When the child grows up it will often start questioning things. It will start to not accept everything the parents say, start to develop a personality of its own. In this puberty phase stubbornness and stupidity ofen go hand in hand as even he wisest advice of the parents is ignored. However, his phase can pass and result in.. adulthood. In which the child possibly finds a new respect for the parents and their advice, while being independant enough to be able to difer with them. They are in other words equals. The parents can be proud.

Most dogmatic religions seem intent to keep humanity in the infant stage with commandments and dogma, telling people what to think and to do, discouraging thinking for oneself. They say such is the will of their Lord, their Father; that without guidance humans will go astray.

But is it ? Would God not like us to grow up ? Even if that means the pains of puberty - for both us and him - filled with mistakes ?
Liskeinland
19-06-2005, 14:45
But is it ? Would God not like us to grow up ? Even if that means the pains of puberty - for both us and him - filled with mistakes ? The problem is that we will choose the wrong choices if left to ourselves - just like infants - so we need guidance.

I don't get the "strive to make themselves obsolete" bit - I don't get the meaning.
Taquor
19-06-2005, 14:53
But is it ? Would God not like us to grow up ? Even if that means the pains of puberty - for both us and him - filled with mistakes ?

You could read St. Pauls letters to the Corinthians and the letter to the Galatians. Your topic proofs one thing for certain: you haven't read the Bible at all, our you did, but didn't understand the main principles described in it.

One of the main principles is: after your rebirth you must grow up. (That is a commandment). You have to grow up, in order to become a spiritual adult.

Your opinion of religion seems to define religion as a set of rules one has to obey. If you really think that is the case in for instance Christianity, you didn't understand a single thing of belief.

Think again: why would so many people voluntary become christians when the whole religion is nothing more than a set of rules they must obey.
If that were the case, I myself would never become a christian. :)
UnemployedGunmen
19-06-2005, 14:57
On what basis would some one assume that humanity would make the wrong choice(s)?

Throughout history it is consistently religion that has made the incorrect choices, and only through the most valient efforts of right minded thinkers has society progressed at all.

Whether it be civil rights for minority's and women, or the motions of the planets, the shape of our own planet. The horrible torture and murder of thousands of innocent people throughout Europe and the America's for the mistaken beliefe that they were witches, warlocks or under the influence of Satan.

Religion has been made to see the light on these issues because it was dragged kicking and screeming into the future. And notice that on some of those issues it still refuses to join the rest of us here in the civilized world.

Also notice that I dont speak simply of christianity as most of the worlds religions and the society's that follow them are offenders against the equal rights of those that dont enforce the Dogma. I include christianity, islam, hinduism, the sikh's, all of them.
Santa Barbara
19-06-2005, 15:00
Er, no religion will actively 'strive' to make itself obsolete. Ever. Religions don't commit suicide.
Koroser
19-06-2005, 15:01
But they can kill themselves by bad choices. All I can say is that eventually, dogmatic religion will die out.
Robot ninja pirates
19-06-2005, 15:02
The problem is that we will choose the wrong choices if left to ourselves - just like infants - so we need guidance.

I don't get the "strive to make themselves obsolete" bit - I don't get the meaning.
Whose to say what the right choices are?
Ekland
19-06-2005, 15:10
Whose to say what the right choices are?

Your parents, bitch. :p
Venus Mound
19-06-2005, 15:12
Dogmas aren't about controlling people's lives! They are metaphysical beliefs.

People who think they can say something about religion even though they have little to no understanding of it are annoying. I don't know where to start...
Liskeinland
19-06-2005, 15:13
Your parents, bitch. :p "Father" being a parent, "Father" also being God.

Y'see? :p
Giggy world
19-06-2005, 15:18
The thing with religion is that you do get a choice, God is not forcing you to follow him, in this respect you are being treated as an adult.

As an adult though you also must accept the consequences of your actions, if you go up to someone and punch them in the face you will be done for assault, if you sin then you will be brought to trial.

As a child your parents may decide to bring you up to folow a religion but as an adult you have the choice yet have to be prepared to suffer the consquences if you make the wrong choice.

That's how I see it atleast.
Taquor
19-06-2005, 15:39
Your parents can bring you up and they maybe want you to be a believer. But they can't decide for you to be a believer or not. That's your own choice you make. When you grow older, your parents, the church, God expects YOU to choose wheter you want to believe or not.

If you choose to be a believer, it has its consequences: be mocked by 'the world' and 'nonbelievers'. In some countries it means that you will be thrown in prison, or wil be put to death.
When someone in Saudi Arabia is baptized, he is certain he wil put to death within a few hours, as is the one who baptized him. Still people over there choose to believe. That's a risk they want to take.

You can also choose to be a nonbeliever. So, than you do not accept God as supreme power. That has other consequences. Only those consequences are long term consequences. You have to strongly believe that all the religion stuff is bull shit, because when it isn't, you are in a lot of troubles. That explains why atheist are so fierce in battling against religion. It should not be true in their eyes, because when it is, they are having a huge problem ;)
Comedy Option
19-06-2005, 15:41
Some people need a set of rules. Somepeople don't.

Your parents can bring you up and they maybe want you to be a believer. But they can't decide for you to be a believer or not. That's your own choice you make. When you grow older, your parents, the church, God expects YOU to choose wheter you want to believe or not.

If you choose to be a believer, it has its consequences: be mocked by 'the world' and 'nonbelievers'. In some countries it means that you will be thrown in prison, or wil be put to death.
When someone in Saudi Arabia is baptized, he is certain he wil put to death within a few hours, as is the one who baptized him. Still people over there choose to believe. That's a risk they want to take.

You can also choose to be a nonbeliever. So, than you do not accept God as supreme power. That has other consequences. Only those consequences are long term consequences. You have to strongly believe that all the religion stuff is bull shit, because when it isn't, you are in a lot of troubles. That explains why atheist are so fierce in battling against religion. It should not be true in their eyes, because when it is, they are having a huge problem ;)

Not really, your parents have a lot to say in if you are a believer or not. You can compare religion to santa clause or the easter bunny.
Santa Barbara
19-06-2005, 15:42
You can also choose to be a nonbeliever. So, than you do not accept God as supreme power. That has other consequences. Only those consequences are long term consequences.

Yeah, like what? What are some long term consequences I'm apparently dealing with? Risk of hellfire and damnation? ;)
The Eagle of Darkness
19-06-2005, 15:47
The thing with religion is that you do get a choice, God is not forcing you to follow him, in this respect you are being treated as an adult.

Yes he is. Well, no, he isn't, but then, no one is /forcing/ children not to do things they're told not to. They get punished when they do, though, but /they/ get another chance. With God (meaning the Christian variant) if you don't follow him, you're screwed for all eternity. Religion does not encourage free thinking, because to think for yourself means you might decide that God isn't real, and then you'll go to Hell-or-local-equivalent.

No one is /forcing/ you to eat, but the consequences if you don't are quite dire. In that sense, you /are/ forced to do so.