NationStates Jolt Archive

I have a question for parents and sociologists.

Do you think there is ever a time where corporal punishment as a means of diciplining a child is acceptable/justified. If so, describe.

Second, what measure should be taken towards abusive/neglecting parents. Do we need stiffer punishments? Or maybe better education programs? No punishment at all?

Thanks.

I know you're asking parents, but I think I've got a reason to say that corporal punishment is unnecessary.

Look --- When I was a kid, my dad would hit me if I did something wrong... Though, I never, ever knew what wrong I had done, because he never talked with me about it. It was always *WHACK*, and a few obligatory curse words. He hasn't hit me on a regular basis ever since the anti-beating law was passed in the mid-90's. It's funny (or terrifying, whichever way you want to look at it), though: He talks about how much he'd enjoy socking me in the face for not doing every single thing he tells me, if it weren't for that "stupid law".

Had we talked instead of him hitting me (or had he been a different person altogether), I think I'd like him a lot more than I do now.

I'm not sure what acceptable/justified means. I'd rather try and answer the question, is corporal punishment a good idea? I'd say it isn't. There are two reasons. The main one is that it hurts. The second is that it's not very effective if your goal is to raise well behaved children. I'd like to see more education on child rearing practices available for parents so they will have less inclination to resort to corporal punishment.

I think corporal punishment is alright in some cases, but only as a last resort. If a spanking can make a child think twice about doing something wrong or harmful then it may be justified, but it should never be a regular occurance.

It can be done, but in moderation and ONLY in conjunction with a clear explanation of WHAT the child is being punished for - otherwise there's no possibility of learning a lesson from it and it is purely violence.

The only time I believe corporal punishment is justified is if the child is not able or willing to listen to verbal reprimands and is in danger of harming himself.

I'm inclined to agree with the "Don't beat the child" group, but since Doctor Phil, the hypocritical bastard (More on him later) happens to be on and watched religiously by every other member of my "family," I'm getting to see some pretty major dysfunction. And I live with a real bitch of a sister. I know that's pretty common, but I'm pretty sure it could win the gold, if being an absolute **** was an olympic sport.

There are some cases where I think knocking the kid on his/her ass - WITH AN EXPLANATION - would make sense. And not frequently. Use it rarely. If you use it frequently, then you're screwed, he / she will just get used to a smacking. Right now I can imagine my life being a lot better if my sister would shut the f*ck up because she was on her ass staring at the ceiling. It's not just sibling rivalry or whatever the politically correct term for it is, if I had the technology I'd record her, and open a poll here.
"Kill."
"Let live."

Garunteed, the "Kill" vote would win that. Unless the mods locked it, and even then...

I also have a few friends who were spanked or slapped until they were twelve - thirteen. They came out fine, but they've also got some pretty strong minds and are destined to be pretty damn fine guys. It's possible that on a lesser person then that may have an adverse effect. I've heard some ludicrous statements from people though, that it's "The first step to brainwashing" and a lot of other crap.

- Here's the little bit more on Dr. Phil:
"I 'truely care about you', but while you're crying, stare at the red light so that we can capture all of your pain on film and make the big bucks."

Potaria has a solid point though; whack the kid frequently and without explanation if you don't really want to see him/her for the rest of your life.

As long as the reasons for it are sensible and the child is clearly told WHY they're being punished, yes corporal punishment is sometimes acceptable. I only got spanked a few times as a kid, but my dad boxed my ears often enough when I got out of hand. It worked because it showed he meant business, but it was only momentarily painful and not as demeaning as a spanking.

If only there was some kind of mechanism whereby the adult giving out the punishment got a nice hard kick in the ass after they did it. Then they'd think twice over whether the punishment was really neccessary. If is a worthy solution, most adults would be willing to take their own dose...and think long and hard about what they were doing to themselves to possibly cause the child to act in ways deserving a spanking.

What my dad would do is tell me to stop doing what I was doing wrong and then count to three. If he got to three, I got spanked. But more often, I got to sit in a corner and bore myself to death for doing something wrong so I could think about what I did.

I know you're asking parents, but I think I've got a reason to say that corporal punishment is unnecessary.

Look --- When I was a kid, my dad would hit me if I did something wrong... Though, I never, ever knew what wrong I had done, because he never talked with me about it. It was always *WHACK*, and a few obligatory curse words. He hasn't hit me on a regular basis ever since the anti-beating law was passed in the mid-90's. It's funny (or terrifying, whichever way you want to look at it), though: He talks about how much he'd enjoy socking me in the face for not doing every single thing he tells me, if it weren't for that "stupid law".

Had we talked instead of him hitting me (or had he been a different person altogether), I think I'd like him a lot more than I do now.

Sounds exactly like my dad, except he never talked about enjoying it, though I'm sure he did, and the laws never stopped him, till I stood up to him.

For the most part, I'm inclined to say that one should never strike one's children. I'm sure there's an exception, if I really thought on it, but I'm a bit tired.

As a high schooler myself, I have to say that the world would be a better place right now if teachers had the threat, at least, of sending a kid to the VP for a smacking, as opposed to being told, "You were bad, now heres a three day free-pass to get out of school because your parents dont care anyway,".
Maybe its just because Im usualy a good kid and havent been in the VP's office for four years (at least for anything bad), but I figure there would be alot fewer visitors if he had one of those nice flat wooden paddles with holes in on the wall.
Simply telling a kid he/she is bad isnt good enough anymore, and hasnt been since the sixties. The only kids it works on are the basicaly good ones, which is rather pointless because they are, in fact, basicaly good.

EDIT:
I would also support the bringing the stocks back into use in public schools, THAT would teach kids a lesson ^_^

Well, I was spanked as a child, and I would have to say, I believe it was for the best. Now, do not get me wrong, there is a difference, clearly a difference, between child abuse and spanking. I knew someone who was abused as a child......that is an entirely different story.

And remember now, discpline does not necessary determine how you will grow up. Being spanked or not will not determine if you grow up to be respectable or malicious. No, far other forces come to play there.

However, after taking numerous psychology courses, and spending years with children, I learned that spanking turns out to usually be the only way a child learns his/her limitations. Children cannot rationalize. Let me repeat that for you all again: children can NOT rationalize. There is no sweet talking and trying to rationalize and explain these things to them. You need to be firm and show them that no is no.....no exceptions.

I believe a three strike policy is the best. The first strike should be verbal warning, the second a time out in a corner, the third, a spanking. Kids then learn that they have a choice to stop their actions and that they can prevent a spanking. Spankings usually are effective because they strike fear and hurt into a child and honestly, I believe children need fear. I think that is what is wrong with furture generations.....they lack fear.

Lastly, you need to perform any discpline right after the act was done or as preventative measures so that the child knows what it is doing wrong.....never later. You also must be consistent with your punishment and reasonable. Spilled milk is not justifiable for a spanking, but throwing china plates at your little brother is. ;)

Now, I also understand that my views are contraversial. Argue me if you like, but this is all based off of reason and personal experience, so I am holding firm to my grounds.

I'm not a parent, but it is my theory that it is not the severity or lack thereof of punishment that a parent (or the justice department) issues, but rather the lack of consistency that is the problem. Unfortunately, neither parents nor the courts are consistent.

If any pet owners are here.. do you "pop" your puppy or kitty on their butt when you are trying to teach them?

I do.

I don't "knock the shit" out of them.. but I do "pop" them. They get the drift. Along with my voice at the time.

Same with a little child. If popping them on the rear is gonna keep them from sticking a fork in the electrical socket or runing out into the road ...then do it. If you love your child you will do whatever works. Don't give a shit about them .. or are too politically correct to pop them.. ok.. let them fend for themselves.

Children can't sit down and have an adult conversation about the repercussions of doing some things. But they all understand a stern No and a pop.

If they are of an age where they Do understand what you are talking about when you try to tell them why they shouldn't do something(and you are right) .. then .. either they weren't punished right when they were little, they are assholes(all the assholes you know were once kids), they are spoilt brats, mentally challenged or just a rebellious type.. expect to be posting bail soon.

If I have children, I would be open to using corporal punishment for disciplne situations, but I would only use open handed slaps on the legs or rear. I say this because my Dad was very violent when "disciplining" me. It got to the point, in middle school, where I had to ask my teachers only to issue disciplinary slips to my mother if they didn't want to see me come into school
with cuts, bruises, and scrapes.

Overall, I would say that the use of physical discipline earlier in my childhood had a positive effect on my upbringing, everything after a certain age (6? 7?) was just punishment from my father for being inconvenient for his lifestyle.

No, never. Parents who strike their children are failures as parents.

I believe I was hit perhaps ten times in my entire childhood.

My parents were a great believer in the three strikes rule. Strike one, you were told clearly, "Do not jump on the bed -- you are tearing up the floor, and it's dangerous. If you fall, you will get hurt."

Strike two you were removed from what you were doing and you were told, "I told you to stop that. If I have to tell you a third time, you're going to get a smack."

Strike three there was no discussion: you were removed from doing what you were doing and got one good, hard, openhanded smack on the rear -- not hard enough to leave a mark, but hard enough to sting and perhaps make you cry and remember for next time. And you know what? It worked. Usually strike two was more than enough to convince us to stop.

This is why my brother and I learned not to jump on beds and why my cousin, whose parents explained everything to him hundreds of times, ended up with stitches when he fell off his bed, smacked his jaw into the nightstand on the way down, and drove his teeth through his lower lip.

Hitting a kid for every little thing is ridiculous and abusive. However, anything my brother and I got hit for was a clear and immediate danger that we refused to stop doing -- like running out into the street.

Something which was incredibly effective was my mom's policy of taking a toy away for a week or so -- or in some cases, where we kept arguing and fighting over something, after being warned to stop two or three times -- the source of the argument was thrown out. That left, as you imagine, a lasting impression -- especially since if we wanted whatever it was replaced, my brother and/or I had to save to replace it.

I have seen, as an educator, children come up with their parents to open school night who are openly defiant and disrespectful to their parents -- and was even placed in a situation where a kid told his parent to "fuck off" when they asked him why he was not doing his work. I can't help but think this is connected with a society in which there seem to be no limits that parents are willing to give (absentee parent) or able to give (at work all the time or afraid of interference should they try to discipline a kid). I am by NO MEANS advocating hitting a kid as a regular thing, but I've also seen several cases in which kids have threatened their parents who DON'T spank, "If you don't let me do this, I'll call the cops and tell them you beat me."

Some kids know that the laws, intended to protect them, are stacked against parents and they will wreak havoc as a way of controlling their folks.

sure it can be "justified" to swat a child on the behind a couple times as a punishment for something they did wrong.

but its never the best option.

a good parent can use so many other forms of dicipline that have better outcomes that it really is, as fass said, a failure on the parents part to have to resort to hitting their child.

when it comes to SCHOOLS, they should never have the option of corporal punishment. it is much too easy for a teacher/principal to cross the line into abuse.

I strongly support corporal punishment. One of the main reasons the world is such a mess is because parents are way too soft, no thanks to that bastard Dr. Benjamin Spock.

I support it, but only if it is used rarely, like as part of a "three strikes" rule or something like that... I got spanked quite often in my family, and I just eventually started blowing it off, so like I said, used sparingly and as a last resort, it's a good idea, but if it's used too often, the kid eventually just stops caring about it.

I have seen, as an educator, children come up with their parents to open school night who are openly defiant and disrespectful to their parents -- and was even placed in a situation where a kid told his parent to "fuck off" when they asked him why he was not doing his work. I can't help but think this is connected with a society in which there seem to be no limits that parents are willing to give (absentee parent) or able to give (at work all the time or afraid of interference should they try to discipline a kid). I am by NO MEANS advocating hitting a kid as a regular thing, but I've also seen several cases in which kids have threatened their parents who DON'T spank, "If you don't let me do this, I'll call the cops and tell them you beat me."

Some kids know that the laws, intended to protect them, are stacked against parents and they will wreak havoc as a way of controlling their folks.

i dont know how parents can stand to have children like that, little monsters of their own creation. it takes so much more effort to raise a brat than it does to raise a well behaved child. if only they would put their attention in when it would do some good instead of when it has to be done to fix up what is going wrong.

when your kid threatens to call the cops, you hand him the phone and tell him you hope he's happy in his new foster home. only a fool gives into his child's threats. a kid who is the boss of the house is not a happy child. he will make your life hell to prove it.

really, kat, you must have a whole catalog in your head of ways NOT to raise a child based on the cases you see every year. from parents who cant be bothered to make sure their child comes to school with their hair combed to those that insist that their little monster cannot possibly have done what he obviously has done. do you ever wonder how anyone ends up as a reasonably adjusted adult?

I strongly support corporal punishment. One of the main reasons the world is such a mess is because parents are way too soft, no thanks to that bastard Dr. Benjamin Spock.
yeah i remember when i was 3 back in 1960 and he came by the house and stopped my mom from giving me a spanking. that guy was EVERYWHERE. i dont know how he had the energy to visit every single household in america to force them to change their dicipline style.

No, never. Parents who strike their children are failures as parents.

Nice generalisation there Fass. How much experience of being a parent do you have?


The threat of corporal punishment, and a believable threat at that, does have an important role in establishing limits for behaviour. If a child is misbehaving the reaction of the parents should depend on various factors. What is the behaviour? Is it something that is dangerous to the child or to others, is it just socially unacceptable, or is it asimply contravening your personal or family standards.

In the first case if a verbal warning does not stop the behaviour then you have a duty as a parent to go beyond this and prevent the misbehaviour cpontinuing. This is most effectively done with a short sharp slap, or by securing an ear, or other non excessive corporal action. You, as a parent are responsible for your child and the consequences of your child's actions.

In the other cases there is a much longer period of verbal, loss of privelege actions before physical punishmentr is justified, and in the last it is difficult to justify it at all.

I don't think corporal punishment is ever justified.

I'm not a parent nor do I ever intend to become one and one of the reasons for that is that I'm aware that people unconsciously copy thebehaviour they experienced from their parents when they were kids and use it on their own. I won't be responsible for srewing up somebody else's life like that.

I got beaten on a more or less regular basis, sometimes for things I did wrong, sometimes for things my brothers did wrong (I'm the oldest, so they were my responsibility), sometimes because of things my parents thought I did wrong. I got everything from slaps in the face by my mother to being beaten up with a broomstick by my father.
And honestly, it taught me one thing only : When my parents beat me, they are at their wits' ends, I can go on doing whatever it was I was doing, they can't stop me.
It taught me to hate my father and to despise my mother because I figured out very soon that in beating me they only showed their own lack of control over me and over themselves.

There is no way to ensure that whoever has a kid will be a good parent. I know I wouldn't be, that's why I don't want any. Laws against beating a child only go so far, as a playful smack on the back may be interpreted by your neighbours as child abuse and land you in unnecessary trouble. It would be best to simply educate parents and teach them authority and respect for their kids, but how are you going to do that?

Children test the limits that their parents are willing to go.

I have two kids, both two years old (yes they're twins). I discipline them much more harshly than their mother does. This does not include beatings but light smacks on the hands or rear-end when they don't listen.

At only two years old, most of the time the tone in my voice stops what they're doing. They still push the limits at times (ussually during a temper tantrum) but they stop quickly.

Their is a difference between disciplining and beating. I've seen more "failures" of parents who take one extreme or the other than I care to count. How many kids do you have Fass?

Would hanging your kid from a coat hook for twenty minutes or until they shut up, whichever one comes last, be considered child abuse? I think that's just like sending them to the corner for time out, only less comfortable. What say the experts?

Corporal Punishment is good - child abuse is bad.

I'm a strong advocate of corporal punishment. After all, can a kid really take their parent seriously when they know their parent won't lay a hand on them? When they associate discomfort with disobedience, they will be very much unlikely to repeat the act.

Would hanging your kid from a coat hook for twenty minutes or until they shut up, whichever one comes last, be considered child abuse? I think that's just like sending them to the corner for time out, only less comfortable. What say the experts?

You honestly think that sending a child into a corner is the same as hanging them from a coat hook?

Do you have children?

You honestly think that sending a child into a corner is the same as hanging them from a coat hook?

Do you have children?
How is it any different?

Wouldn't they break the coat hook anyway? :D

I'm a strong advocate of corporal punishment. After all, can a kid really take their parent seriously when they know their parent won't lay a hand on them? When they associate discomfort with disobedience, they will be very much unlikely to repeat the act.

Does discomfort mean that you have to beat them? I don't think so. Kids don't respect their parents because they beat or slap them, I know I didn't. Kids respect authority, and that can be maintained without coporal punishment.

After all, how are you to respect somebody who hits a much smaller, defenseless person???

Wouldn't they break the coat hook anyway? :D
Not if you get the good kind and use more than one :)

Does discomfort mean that you have to beat them? I don't think so. Kids don't respect their parents because they beat or slap them, I know I didn't. Kids respect authority, and that can be maintained without coporal punishment.

After all, how are you to respect somebody who hits a much smaller, defenseless person???

You don't understand. CHILDREN CAN'T REASON. You can talk to them, but they won't listen, they won't understand. They do, however, understand a quick, virtually painless smack.

My dad hasn't really hit me for a while. Mainly because I'm not that bad anymore. But partly because he knows it doesn't hurt any more. When he's really pissed he might smack me on the back of the head. But he's never, ever hit me hard enough to make me bleed or bruise. THat's the point where it becomes child abuse.

My mom, on the other hand, has only hit me maybe 5 times in my life, and only once was hard. Man, I deserved that one.

Does discomfort mean that you have to beat them? I don't think so. Kids don't respect their parents because they beat or slap them, I know I didn't. Kids respect authority, and that can be maintained without coporal punishment.

After all, how are you to respect somebody who hits a much smaller, defenseless person???



Nonono, I never approved of beating. I'm talking about a spanking or switching....you know, the stuff that induces pain yet does not result in injury of any type. Also, the comparison of a parent who is disciplining their child to a bully is a bit unfair as the parents have a reason (at least, they should) for administering punishment. From personal experience, I can tell you that an occasional spanking when I misbehaved worked wonders.

You don't understand. CHILDREN CAN'T REASON. You can talk to them, but they won't listen, they won't understand. They do, however, understand a quick, virtually painless smack.

My dad hasn't really hit me for a while. Mainly because I'm not that bad anymore. But partly because he knows it doesn't hurt any more. When he's really pissed he might smack me on the back of the head. But he's never, ever hit me hard enough to make me bleed or bruise. THat's the point where it becomes child abuse.

My mom, on the other hand, has only hit me maybe 5 times in my life, and only once was hard. Man, I deserved that one.

no children cant reason. there is no sense trying to "reason" with a small child. or any child for that matter. you can make sure they know your reasons for whatever decisions you make but there is no need to get them to agree with your reasons. knowing they have to abide by them is enough.

what does that have to do with spanking? there are many other ways to deal with children that doesnt have you hitting them OR talking yourself to death in an attempt to get voluntary obedience.

No, never. Parents who strike their children are failures as parents.

Are you a parent? I do not think you have to right to judge other people's parenting techniques, especially if you are not a parent yourself. Parenting is a tough job, and there is NEVER a right or wrong way to do it.

My parents are not failures as a parent. They loved me a lot and wanted me to grow up with a clear head on my shoulders, which I did. Did they fail? Am I a drug addicted prostitute, selling myself on the streets for a pack of cigarettes and heorine? I think not. Therefore, how can you possibility judge other people's parenting strategies?

And if someone has ever been around children or raised them for an extended period of time (not a week or few) then they will almost all agree, there almost always comes the desire to crack a child, especially after they take a shit on the floor and smear it all over the bathroom walls or when they take a gallon of milk and dump the entire thing all over the place because they tried to pour themself a glass of milk.

Lastly, as someone here previously said, if you love your children, you do what you must to ensure that they have a prospective future and grow up out of trouble.....firm discpline might just be the only way to do that.

Nonono, I never approved of beating. I'm talking about a spanking or switching....you know, the stuff that induces pain yet does not result in injury of any type. Also, the comparison of a parent who is disciplining their child to a bully is a bit unfair as the parents have a reason (at least, they should) for administering punishment. From personal experience, I can tell you that an occasional spanking when I misbehaved worked wonders.

Well, I can hold my experience against it, my parents firmly believed in coporal punishment. I despise my mother for it and I hate my father for the childhood he gave me (and that was 20 years ago), I'm not talking to him any more, but I know form my brothers that he still is convinced that all the pain he caused me was for my own good.
Don't get me wrong, I recognised and respected authority all my life. My grandmother never ever needed to slap me, her tone could stop me dead in whatever it was I was doing. I spent a few years with her and I'm really grateful for that.

I'm not talking about a slap on the hand. That normally doesn't hurt at all, but you can/should only apply that to very young children. As soon as they can talk they can understand what you're saying, and they can decipher your tone of voice a whole lot sooner.
You shouldn't explain things to kids over and over, that won't make them stop. But you should have enough authority to make your kids obey without physically hurting them. Otherwise, you're not an authority to them.
My parents never were to me.

Can I ask a question here? How many people here who actually have children do not believe in corporal punishment?

I took notice that a lot of people who do not have children are the ones who do not agree with it. Does anyone else see a connection here?

Corporal Punishment is good - child abuse is bad.

Agreed!

Agreed!

So, where EXACTLY do you draw the line?

Can I ask a question here? How many people here who actually have children do not believe in corporal punishment?

I took notice that a lot of people who do not have children are the ones who do not agree with it. Does anyone else see a connection here?
i do

spanking isnt the worst thing you can do to your child but it does represent a failure in parenting when you have to use it.

any parent who beats their child for spilling milk isnt being a good parent that day.

Corporal Punishment is good - child abuse is bad.

Sounds about right to me.

So, where EXACTLY do you draw the line?
and that is the problem isnt it? where DO you draw the line?

a child that can be brought into line with a light swat on the butt didnt need to be spanked.

a child who needs a good hard spanking is past the point where spanking is useful. who can be sure that they wont go too far with this kind of child?

You are correct Cabra, an effective parent would not need to resort to spanking to have the child follow her will. Of course, you establish the respect for your will in the child by spanking them. That way, disobedience would never be an issue as they would know the consequences and thus, spanking would not be necessary.

i do

spanking isnt the worst thing you can do to your child but it does represent a failure in parenting when you have to use it.

any parent who beats their child for spilling milk isnt being a good parent that day.

Read my response to Fass, I will not repeat it. I will repeat that no one here has the right to judge parenting strategies. And any parent would know better then to do that.

Like I said, spilt milk isn't justifiable for a spanking, but there are places it is necessary. I am sure you would not let your child beat the ever living shit out of the neighbor for playing with your child's toy.

So, where EXACTLY do you draw the line?

Well, you need to be consistent, so if it is inconsistent, then you should not be doing it. One crack on the ass is suffecient punishment as a spanking. Since the butt is padded with fat, it stings to be hit, but it does not bruise or damage the child.

Children should not be hit in the face, or at least I believe so. The butt is the only place that really should be used in a spanking. If you need to hit your child fifteen times in the ass for something they did wrong, then perhaps you should consult other methods of punishment.....that is excessive.

You should give them warnings before a spanking, and only use a spanking if they fail to listen to your warnings or if they have done something extremely repremendable, like shooting your kitty cat in the rearend for pooping in the litter box, or stealing a butter knife and trying to kill their dad for having funny looking hair.

Yes, there most definitely IS a connection -- because the "disciplinary tactics" are still fresh in our minds. I was spanked as a child, over literally everything. I would be surprised if I went an entire week without getting spanked. If I accedentally knocked over a plant and spilled it outside, I was spanked. If I jumped over the fence in the backyard, I was spanked.

But then, one day, when my father was about the spank me, he just stopped. He asked me if I knew what I did wrong, and I said no. He put his head in his hands and told me to go play with my friends.
While I don't really understand what happened, he has never hit me since. Since then, he has been giving me lectures -- that are just as bad as spanking. At least the spanking was over within 10 seconds... Now I have to endure 30 minutes lectures that literally go in circles.

Point being, I like my father a lot more now that has doesn't spank me. I will never, ever spank my children. It never did anything for me, and to this day, I hate almost every type of authority. Just ask my friends: If I feel unnecessary authority is being placed over me, I'll either leave or fight back.

Of course, you're going to tell me "oh, you don't know what it's LIKE to have children!!!", but I honestly don't care. Say what you like, but when your children have a hidden grudge against you until the day you die, we'll see how YOU feel.

Yes, there most definitely IS a connection -- because the "disciplinary tactics" are still fresh in our minds. I was spanked as a child, over literally everything. I would be surprised if I went an entire week without getting spanked. If I accedentally knocked over a plant and spilled it outside, I was spanked. If I jumped over the fence in the backyard, I was spanked.

But then, one day, when my father was about the spank me, he just stopped. He asked me if I knew what I did wrong, and I said no. He put his head in his hands and told me to go play with my friends.
While I don't really understand what happened, he has never hit me since. Since then, he has been giving me lectures -- that are just as bad as spanking. At least the spanking was over within 10 seconds... Now I have to endure 30 minutes lectures that literally go in circles.

Point being, I like my father a lot more now that has doesn't spank me. I will never, ever spank my children. It never did anything for me, and to this day, I hate almost every type of authority. Just ask my friends: If I feel unnecessary authority is being placed over me, I'll either leave or fight back.

Of course, you're going to tell me "oh, you don't know what it's LIKE to have children!!!", but I honestly don't care. Say what you like, but when your children have a hidden grudge against you until the day you die, we'll see how YOU feel.



But the example that you are using is the incorrect method of it. If he knew what he was doing, he would have given you the reason before spanking and he wouldn't have spanked you over things that were accidental (If I ever broke anything, I had to pay for it).

Of course, you're going to tell me "oh, you don't know what it's LIKE to have children!!!", but I honestly don't care. Say what you like, but when your children have a hidden grudge against you until the day you die, we'll see how YOU feel.

First, you do not know me to know what I will say to you. :P

Next, your father hit you unnecessarily. In all my arguements, I believe in a three strike policy....that is not unnecassary. If by the third strike, a child cannot listen, then a spanking is needed to try and draw the lines.

Children will not hold a grudge against you for something like that, in most cases. If you are reasonable with your punishment, there is really no reason that they would hold a grudge against you. Now, as for your case, your father was unreasonable with it, and you said that he hit you for really no good reason. There is a difference there.

Read my response to Fass, I will not repeat it. I will repeat that no one here has the right to judge parenting strategies. And any parent would know better then to do that.

Like I said, spilt milk isn't justifiable for a spanking, but there are places it is necessary. I am sure you would not let your child beat the ever living shit out of the neighbor for playing with your child's toy.

of course i can judge the relative merits of different parenting strategies. relatively speaking, spanking is a bad idea. its not the worst thing you can do but it is far from the best

so you think that if i see my son hitting another child for playing with his toy i should spank him to show him its wrong? that doesnt make much sense now does it?

the only time when spanking is NECESSARY is when you have raised your child with spanking and its the only thing he responds to. if you have used a better system of dicipline it is never necessary.

the only time when spanking is NECESSARY is when you have raised your child with spanking and its the only thing he responds to. if you have used a better system of dicipline it is never necessary.

What method of discipline do you suggest using in place of spanking?

Remember, children cannot rationalize, so what else is effective?

What if the children refuse to go into the corner? Spanking would be the only alternative then....at least, the only one I can think of.

I was spanked as a child. Usually the spanking was the result of me not listening when my parents told me "no" the first time. It hurt a little. But it didn't do any damage. I was fine 5 minutes later. And you know what? It worked. I rarely had tantrums and was praised for being a well behaved child. At first it was because I was afraid of being spanked. But after awhile I had my the connection with right and wrong. I was spanked when I did something wrong and I was rewarded when I behaved.

As a women who is about to be married and start her own family, I agree with physical discipline. So long as it does not cross the line and becomes "beating" or child abuse.

I work in the daycare industry. Mainly toddlers between the ages of 18 months and 2 and half years. You do not know how many parents have brought their children in and told me "If little Johnny/Sue doesn't listen to you just give them a spank."

Obviously, I can't do that even with the parents permission. But, those children who were spanked weren't mean, or badly adjusted. They were usually my best behaved kids.

What method of discipline do you suggest using in place of spanking?

Remember, children cannot rationalize, so what else is effective?
i AM a mom, as i said before

i recommend reading up on the phases of childhood. what works with a toddler doesnt work with a school aged child. understanding what to expect out of children of different ages makes a big difference in your reaction to their behavior.

for example, parents who expect their 2 year old to play nice with other kids are fools and should not spank little johnny for refusing to share. he is 2, its just not gonna happen.

for the youngest, remove them from the situation, dont let them get into it to begin with, distract them, say NO, put them in the playpen.

with older kids who have some understanding of life, natural consequences, time outs (done right) loss of privileges, many many things depending on whats going on

you train your child to respect you. when you have authority over your child they learn to obey you. firm rules firmly enforced take care of 90% of problems. its that "im only telling you one more time" bs that doesnt work. kids learn that they dont HAVE to obey because you wont do anything about it anyway.

you learn to pay attention to your child when he is behaving. too many parents hesitate to interrupt when their kids are playing nicely and only come into it when they are fighting. that rewards your kid for misbehaving. getting attention for good behavior reinforces your childs good behavior.

i could go on and on.

What if the children refuse to go into the corner? Spanking would be the only alternative then....at least, the only one I can think of.
you pick your child up and put him in the corner.

First, you do not know me to know what I will say to you. :P

Next, your father hit you unnecessarily. In all my arguements, I believe in a three strike policy....that is not unnecassary. If by the third strike, a child cannot listen, then a spanking is needed to try and draw the lines.

Children will not hold a grudge against you for something like that, in most cases. If you are reasonable with your punishment, there is really no reason that they would hold a grudge against you. Now, as for your case, your father was unreasonable with it, and you said that he hit you for really no good reason. There is a difference there.

Actually, my grandmother never needed to spank me or even threaten it. She raised me for four years completely without physical punishment. I wonder why?
I can tell you : I respected her. She was fair, she listened to explanations of my actions, she told me why she was upset if I ded something wrong. And I still respect her today

As for my parents, I never respected them. They hit me, I thought about something else to do that would make them go even madder. I was a vengeful little bastard. And I knew, the moment my parents resorted to the first slap, that they had lost control over me and were just fighting to get it back. It wasn't were they slapped me or how hard, it was the simple fact that they DID slap me that I considered more than unfair. You could say they lost my respect and my love the moment they first rose their hand.

Edit:
That's the reason why I decided never to have kids. I doubt that I could follow my grandmother's example and fear that in tense situations, I might copy the pattern of behaviour that my parents taught me in their infinite wisdom.... If you're going to have a kid just to hurt it, don't have the kid in the first place.

The fact of the matter is that 20 years ago, we didn't have the problems with disrespect that we have in children today. Kids who back-talked their teachers then were sent to the pricipal's office and paddled (and that friggin hurt, lemme tell ya). After my first paddling, I made up my mind that I wasn't going to get in trouble again. It's a very memorable experience, which is what it is intended to be in order to deter further deviant behavior. Today, kids show so much less respect than back then, and I believe it's due to the restrictions we've placed on corporal punishment, and the power we've put into children's little hands to get away with murder.
Just my thoughts.

The fact of the matter is that 20 years ago, we didn't have the problems with disrespect that we have in children today. Kids who back-talked their teachers then were sent to the pricipal's office and paddled (and that friggin hurt, lemme tell ya). After my first paddling, I made up my mind that I wasn't going to get in trouble again. It's a very memorable experience, which is what it is intended to be in order to deter further deviant behavior. Today, kids show so much less respect than back then, and I believe it's due to the restrictions we've placed on corporal punishment, and the power we've put into children's little hands to get away with murder.
Just my thoughts.

Haha, yes, we should NEVER question the "authority" of our "superiors".

:rolleyes:

I was spanked as a child. Usually the spanking was the result of me not listening when my parents told me "no" the first time. It hurt a little. But it didn't do any damage. I was fine 5 minutes later. And you know what? It worked. I rarely had tantrums and was praised for being a well behaved child. At first it was because I was afraid of being spanked. But after awhile I had my the connection with right and wrong. I was spanked when I did something wrong and I was rewarded when I behaved.

As a women who is about to be married and start her own family, I agree with physical discipline. So long as it does not cross the line and becomes "beating" or child abuse.

I work in the daycare industry. Mainly toddlers between the ages of 18 months and 2 and half years. You do not know how many parents have brought their children in and told me "If little Johnny/Sue doesn't listen to you just give them a spank."

Obviously, I can't do that even with the parents permission. But, those children who were spanked weren't mean, or badly adjusted. They were usually my best behaved kids.
it wasnt the spanking that made the difference, it was the follow through.

too many parents spend all day bitching at their kids to behave and dont actually folllow through on anything. "if you dont stop that mommy is gonna get mad" all day long. *shudder*

if a spanking parent waits through an hour of threatening it. "stop fighting or youll both get a spanking" over and over again until she finally loses it and gives them both a good spanking, then spanking isnt a successful strategy for getting obdience. the kids just learn to push to the edge with bad behavior. sometimes they get away with it, sometimes they go over the line and get spanked.

parents who follow through with dicipline are successful. no matter what the dicipline is. you tell your child ONCE, then there are consequences. that is how your child learns to behave.

The fact of the matter is that 20 years ago, we didn't have the problems with disrespect that we have in children today. Kids who back-talked their teachers then were sent to the pricipal's office and paddled (and that friggin hurt, lemme tell ya). After my first paddling, I made up my mind that I wasn't going to get in trouble again. It's a very memorable experience, which is what it is intended to be in order to deter further deviant behavior. Today, kids show so much less respect than back then, and I believe it's due to the restrictions we've placed on corporal punishment, and the power we've put into children's little hands to get away with murder.
Just my thoughts.

Sorry, I disagree.
I was at school 20 years ago, and corporal punishment was outlawed there. Still, most of our teachers had no disciplinary problems whatsoever. I've seen a number of different approaches to establish authority, from a very very strict one to a approaching-the-kids-at-their-own-level. Both worked fine, if the teacher trying it had the strength to keep us in line. It's a psychological skill rather than a physical one.
I never had problems at school, after all, it wasn't my teachers that spanked me, it was my parents. And believe me, I gave them hell for it.

Haha, yes, we should NEVER question the "authority" of our "superiors".

:rolleyes:

Do you honestly think good parents would tell you something just for the hell of it?

If one of my parent's smacked me i'd probably smack them back.

Do you honestly think good parents would tell you something just for the hell of it?

That's my point --- There aren't many truly "good" parents. Yes, a vast amount of parents will tell their kids things "just for the hell of it". My dad does that on a daily basis.

As a legal child, I can safely say that I have never been hit or spanked in my life.
I don't drink. I don't smoke, or do drugs. I obey my parents, most of the time. I get good grades. I don't get in trouble.

Corporal punishment is totally unnecessary.

There are good parents that believe in using controlled measures of corporal punishment and bad parents that believe that they should never cause the slightest twinge of pain in the child. There is no connection between not using corporal punishment and being a good parent.

A lot will depend upon the specific child(ren) involved. Some respect the authority of their parents, and when put in a corner for a time out stay there, others do not, and there is no clear reason why this happens. Different personalities is all I can assume. (This difference exists be between siblings, even twins, so it is not upbringing folks.)

Now it is easy to say that, in theory I would do this or that, That ideally one does not spank a child. Then you come to the practice, the actual situation of having warned the child, having explained to the child, having emotionally blackmailed the child (worse than spanking in my view), having removed all the priveleges the child had, and still the child does not obey; what are you going to do?

Practice will tell you what is fair and right for that child, there is no general solution. Children are as individual and tempremental as any ex smoker on a diet.

SO for those of you who say smacking a child is wrong, regardless, get real. For those of you who say the only way to teach a child whhat is right or wrong is to spanl them, get real as well. Deal with the specific child, not some idealised pseudo platonic form of a child.

really, kat, you must have a whole catalog in your head of ways NOT to raise a child based on the cases you see every year. from parents who cant be bothered to make sure their child comes to school with their hair combed to those that insist that their little monster cannot possibly have done what he obviously has done. do you ever wonder how anyone ends up as a reasonably adjusted adult?

I know precisely how someone ends up as a reasonably adjusted adult:

1) Have parents who care.
2) Have parents who spend as much time as they can squeeze from their schedule with you.
3) Have parents who celebrate your achievements.
4) Have parents who impose age-appropriate limits.
5) Have parents who care enough to explain WHY "X" is off-limits.
6) Have parents who impose a consequence for willfully dangerous/antisocial behavior.

If you're missing any of that, I'm not saying you CAN'T be reasonably well-adjusted -- but the process becomes more difficult if you have to, in essence, raise yourself.

when your kid threatens to call the cops, you hand him the phone and tell him you hope he's happy in his new foster home.

My parents did this. Of course, this was after they'd just thoroughly beaten me, and they phrased it a little differently - more like: "Go ahead, call the cops. They'll take you away and then you'll have to find some other family, and it's not like anyone else will ever want you."

Parenting is a tough job, and there is NEVER a right or wrong way to do it....

Yes, there is. What many parents do is just plain wrong. What my parents did was just plain wrong. And until you've had the crap beaten out of you every few days for more than a decade, please don't tell me otherwise.

And if someone has ever been around children or raised them for an extended period of time (not a week or few) then they will almost all agree, there almost always comes the desire to crack a child, especially after they take a shit on the floor and smear it all over the bathroom walls or when they take a gallon of milk and dump the entire thing all over the place because they tried to pour themself a glass of milk.

The fact that you can even talk about "cracking" a child in those terms horrifies me. I don't dispute that a (reasonably gentle) spanking can be a useful deterrent, but that's all it should be. Anyone who's hitting their kids because they're angry is screwing up. Giving a child a spanking, after fair warning, as a way of teaching them not to engage in actions that endanger themselves or others is one thing. Spanking them because they pissed you off is another thing altogether.

There are good parents that believe in using controlled measures of corporal punishment and bad parents that believe that they should never cause the slightest twinge of pain in the child. There is no connection between not using corporal punishment and being a good parent.

A lot will depend upon the specific child(ren) involved. Some respect the authority of their parents, and when put in a corner for a time out stay there, others do not, and there is no clear reason why this happens. Different personalities is all I can assume. (This difference exists be between siblings, even twins, so it is not upbringing folks.)

Now it is easy to say that, in theory I would do this or that, That ideally one does not spank a child. Then you come to the practice, the actual situation of having warned the child, having explained to the child, having emotionally blackmailed the child (worse than spanking in my view), having removed all the priveleges the child had, and still the child does not obey; what are you going to do?

Practice will tell you what is fair and right for that child, there is no general solution. Children are as individual and tempremental as any ex smoker on a diet.

SO for those of you who say smacking a child is wrong, regardless, get real. For those of you who say the only way to teach a child whhat is right or wrong is to spanl them, get real as well. Deal with the specific child, not some idealised pseudo platonic form of a child.

So right on the head, I orgasmed on myself.

Honestly, someone mentioned how they got good grades and were well behaved and never got spanked. They went ahead to say, "Spanking is totally unnecessary". Again, as Alien Born said, it boils down to the individual child. If you were obedient and wore red "well behaved" stars on your shirt all through your childhood without a spanking, then obviously, you didn't need to get spanked.

I went through parenting with my grandmother and my mother. My grandmother beat my ass senseless, even going as far as to use her fists. Living with her was a hell-hole state of fear. That's about the extent of it. I loved my grandmother, but I was too scared to even open the fridge to get some water without permission, or to turn on the TV for a half hour a day without permission. Hell, I was too scared to *ask* permission, so I'd write it in letters. In short, beatings just about every day, most of which included insults and mocking from her.

This is an example of child abuse. This equals Bad.

My mother, on the other hand, laid her hand on me maybe five times in my life. Outside of that, there was the "warning" system. Worked fantastically. Because I spent more time with my mother after living with my grandmother, I pretty much got over any issues I might have had with my grandmother, and grew into a pretty functional member of society. I deserved the times I got hit from my Mom, and deserved the times I got grounded. As I grew older and was able to reason and rationalize as an adult, I was no longer hit and instead we talked and reasoned our way with discipline (along with the standard Grounding).

So really, Beating is bad. Spanking is good. Most of us need a swift swat in the ass, cuff to the ear, and smack to the back of the head every one in a while to ensure we keep in line. There are still those who don't really need much more than simply getting talked to. All on an individual basis. However, those who honestly Beat their children should be put away in a cold, wet dungeon somewhere.

any parent who beats their child for spilling milk isnt being a good parent that day.

That would qualify as an asinine reason to smack a kid.

Now, if little Johnny or Susie yanks the top off the sippy cup to pour it on the floor because they know it makes you angry -- especially if you see them about to do it, yell "No!" and they go ahead and do it anyhow -- I don't think a smack on the bottom and handing them a rag or sponge and telling them to clean it is inappropriate (even if you have to go over it later). You're telling them it's unacceptable and they have to fix it since they messed it.

Smacking a kid because they missed putting the cup on the table, or they dropped it, or they bumped it -- that's just idiotic.

Let's just differentiate though -- I am NOT talking about beating, which is what a number of folks keep mentioning. To me there is a VAST difference between a single swat on the bottom with a hand and sustained, repeated hitting. Hell, I don't even agree with using a belt or switch.

The point of the smack is not to hurt -- if you've done that, you've gone way too far.

So you're allowed to smack a kid but not a grown adult on the street? HA.Why should anyone be treated differently and with ignorance to the law based on their age?

Btw Kat, I think that you must be a great parent :D

The point of the smack is not to hurt -- if you've done that, you've gone way too far.

Exactly.

So you're allowed to smack a kid but not a grown adult on the street? HA.Why should anyone be treated differently and with ignorance to the law based on their age?

I am not responsible for another adult's actions.

I am legally responsible for the behavior of my child, and morally responsible for making sure that they grow up to be well-adjusted people who can live happily in society. Looking at some of my students who lie, cheat, steal, beat other people, and end up being taken away in handcuffs, all after bragging that they can 'do whatever they want' and that their parents can't stop them, I wonder who's happier? The kid in jail, or the kid at home who knows what is and is not unacceptable?

Note that spanking should not be the ONLY tool used for discipline. For it to be at all effective, it should be used RARELY. As I said, I was swatted maybe ten times in my whole life -- and I don't hate my parents, nor do I fear them. I do love and respect them for protecting me from myself and for imposing socially and morally acceptable limits.

Ok so we seem to have established that a good smack on the bottom is fair if the siuation demands.

What about banging heads together? Me and my brother regularly ended up scrapping over something and my dad (usually) would bang our heads together. Effective in the short term and, I guess the long term, we certainly arent as bad as we were. It just seems a little eccessive at times (mind you he does have a small anger problem so I have forgiven him generally).

My parents are of the school of 'make good on your threat'. Tell me not to do something or I get a smack. I did it again WHACK and my ass stings for the next few minutes. It certainly seems to have worked. I love my parents and I behave properly (on the whole anyway, no-one does it all the time).

What about banging heads together? Me and my brother regularly ended up scrapping over something and my dad (usually) would bang our heads together. Effective in the short term and, I guess the long term, we certainly arent as bad as we were. It just seems a little eccessive at times (mind you he does have a small anger problem so I have forgiven him generally).

Very bad idea. Repeated blows to the head can cause brain damage, and given that children's brains are still developing, the odds of serious damage are greater with them. No one should ever hit a child on the head deliberately - the risk isn't huge, but it's there, and every time you do it, the risk of permanent damage increases.

If parents are going to use corporal punishment at all, they really ought to think seriously about what forms of punishment to use...

Yes, there most definitely IS a connection -- because the "disciplinary tactics" are still fresh in our minds. I was spanked as a child, over literally everything. I would be surprised if I went an entire week without getting spanked. If I accedentally knocked over a plant and spilled it outside, I was spanked. If I jumped over the fence in the backyard, I was spanked.

Ugh. I had to endure that shit for years when I was a kid. Even over spilling WATER ON YELLOW CARPET. Once the water was on the carpet, I would hear the frantic footsteps of my dad... and *WHACK*. I'd be on the floor, along with my water. Did I know I did anything wrong? Nope.

But then, one day, when my father was about the spank me, he just stopped. He asked me if I knew what I did wrong, and I said no. He put his head in his hands and told me to go play with my friends.
While I don't really understand what happened, he has never hit me since. Since then, he has been giving me lectures -- that are just as bad as spanking. At least the spanking was over within 10 seconds... Now I have to endure 30 minutes lectures that literally go in circles.

At least your dad's reasonable. My dad just yells constantly. "DO THIS, DO THAT, DON'T DO THAT AGAIN, MOTHER FUCKER!" --- Yet, I know I've done nothing wrong. He's just an asshole who wants me to be a mindless tool.

Point being, I like my father a lot more now that has doesn't spank me. I will never, ever spank my children. It never did anything for me, and to this day, I hate almost every type of authority. Just ask my friends: If I feel unnecessary authority is being placed over me, I'll either leave or fight back.

Same here, man. Same here.

Of course, you're going to tell me "oh, you don't know what it's LIKE to have children!!!", but I honestly don't care. Say what you like, but when your children have a hidden grudge against you until the day you die, we'll see how YOU feel.

I'll still hate my dad when I'm 80. That's all I'm saying about that... For now.

That would qualify as an asinine reason to smack a kid.

Now, if little Johnny or Susie yanks the top off the sippy cup to pour it on the floor because they know it makes you angry -- especially if you see them about to do it, yell "No!" and they go ahead and do it anyhow -- I don't think a smack on the bottom and handing them a rag or sponge and telling them to clean it is inappropriate (even if you have to go over it later). You're telling them it's unacceptable and they have to fix it since they messed it.

Smacking a kid because they missed putting the cup on the table, or they dropped it, or they bumped it -- that's just idiotic.

Let's just differentiate though -- I am NOT talking about beating, which is what a number of folks keep mentioning. To me there is a VAST difference between a single swat on the bottom with a hand and sustained, repeated hitting. Hell, I don't even agree with using a belt or switch.

The point of the smack is not to hurt -- if you've done that, you've gone way too far.
if johnny can rip the cover off the sippy cup its time to stop using one.

if he is turning it upside down to see your outraged reaction, you say NO and if he keeps it up you calmly take it away and put it in the sink. when he cries for it, and he will, you dont give it back. no lecture, no smack just going about your business as if his protests mean nothing.

i was at my neices house watching her 18month old for a hour or so. the baby thought it was funny to shake the contents of her sippy cup onto the chair i was sitting in. i looked at her and said "no" in that she-who-must-be-obeyed voice. she burst into tears and that was that.