NationStates Jolt Archive

Since this is big and I haven't heard advertisment about this, I thought I should post it here. Mark the calender for September 24-26 and get plane tickets for Washington D.C. my friends, our day will come!

http://unitedforpeace.org/article.php?list=type&type=91

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"--Thomas Jefferson

I still think we should all just get in one massive pile and rush the White House.

I don't know that 'Get out now" is a realistic or good plan (sort of a too late thing) I'd rather be demanding "Get a better plan" and "Stop giving the people who made the first stupid (lack of a) plan medals." Start there.

Sounds nice...too bad I am a Liberal Hawk.

I don't know that 'Get out now" is a realistic or good plan (sort of a too late thing) I'd rather be demanding "Get a better plan" and "Stop giving the people who made the first stupid (lack of a) plan medals." Start there.
I agree pulling out immediately isn't the smartest move, but still, we gotta resist the power!

i was against the war before we went in. that said, it would be incredibly stupid to just abandon the iraqis before the job is done. we made this mess, now we should clean it up.

on a more selfish note, if we leave now, all you've got in iraq is a lot of angry citizens and a huge power vacuum. that isn't a good combination for us.

I agree pulling out immediately isn't the smartest move, but still, we gotta resist the power!
I'm nervous about generating my own white noise. I'm concerned that it might be the only way to do anything anymore and I don't like the prospect of a liberal white noise machine anymore than I like a conservative one. I want the discourse to be substanitave, not just noise.

It might be wishful thinking.

Having said that, I do still wonder why I don't see more protest signs asking; "I thought you where supposed to be bringing accountability back to the White House?" Maybe because thats kinda long.

See you guys there... I'll make sure to have my shotgun ready :mp5:

:)

Boo, Hiss.

Since this is big and I haven't heard advertisment about this, I thought I should post it here. Mark the calender for September 24-26 and get plane tickets for Washington D.C. my friends, our day will come!

http://unitedforpeace.org/article.php?list=type&type=91

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"--Thomas Jefferson
I'll be the turnout doesn't top 10000. 5000 if it rains.

*mumbles something about "fuckin' hippies" under his breath*

i was against the war before we went in. that said, it would be incredibly stupid to just abandon the iraqis before the job is done. we made this mess, now we should clean it up.

on a more selfish note, if we leave now, all you've got in iraq is a lot of angry citizens and a huge power vacuum. that isn't a good combination for us.
I don't think the US can be part of the solution anymore. I think we've fucked it up too badly to fix it. I'm not saying that it can't be fixed--I'm saying that the US has generated so much bad blood over there, so many ill feelings, that as long as we're there, it'll never calm down. Our very existence in the region is now the cause of much of the violence.

I look at it this way--as things currently stand, Iraq is facing civil war; whether now or in ten years, whenever the US leaves, it's Vietnam in 74-5 all over again. Might as well be now and let the ugliness be done with sooner rather than later.

Oh yeah, pull out now. The fragile shell of democracy and infrastructure that we have created will collapse, Iraq will descend into a bloody civil war, Iran will invade, the Kurds will declare independence, and we have another Somalia.

Genius.[/sarcasm]

Oh yeah, pull out now. The fragile shell of democracy and infrastructure that we have created will collapse, Iraq will descend into a bloody civil war, Iran will invade, the Kurds will declare independence, and we have another Somalia.

Genius.[/sarcasm]
We haven't created anything, other than a mess. That democracy you're touting is a joke, and the infrastructure now is in worse shape than it was before the war started. We've broken it and we can't fix it, because the Iraqis are so pissed at us that they'll never stop fighting as long as we're there.

We haven't created anything, other than a mess. That democracy you're touting is a joke, and the infrastructure now is in worse shape than it was before the war started. We've broken it and we can't fix it, because the Iraqis are so pissed at us that they'll never stop fighting as long as we're there.

That's where you are wrong. The democracy I am touting is not a "joke". To think of it in gaming terms, its in "Alpha" stage. It's not quite perfect, it's not even that great, but at least the people got to VOTE, and the people they voted for are in charge of their country.

Also, the Iraqis are not pissed at us. The majority are displeased that we are here, but only radical Sunnis(a small part of the population) and foreign terrorists are pissed at us enough to blow us, and their fellow Iraqis, to bits. We've raised power and water to above pre-war levels(although it seems like it's worse because we are evenly distributing it now, so instead of Sunnis getting it for 24 hours everyone gets it for 12). The only problem we have is that our genius leadership lacks a plan to deal with the Sunnis and foreing insurgents. Blowing their brains out wont work, as Georgie has learned, so now we have to let people who are qualified deal with it.

We can fix Iraq, if the people would actual try to support the Iraqis(Note: I said Iraqis, not George Bush) in their struggle to create a stable state. If we leave now, we will be screwed for decades to come.

That's where you are wrong. The democracy I am touting is not a "joke". To think of it in gaming terms, its in "Alpha" stage. It's not quite perfect, it's not even that great, but at least the people got to VOTE, and the people they voted for are in charge of their country.

We had less of a Plan than Halo 2 developers have a game before E3. (All they finished was a demo, they had to start over after E3.) It did create hope, but they had start over! As will we to get rid of the chaos we caused.

Also, the Iraqis are not pissed at us. The majority are displeased that we are here, but only radical Sunnis(a small part of the population) and foreign terrorists are pissed at us enough to blow us, and their fellow Iraqis, to bits. We've raised power and water to above pre-war levels(although it seems like it's worse because we are evenly distributing it now, so instead of Sunnis getting it for 24 hours everyone gets it for 12). The only problem we have is that our genius leadership lacks a plan to deal with the Sunnis and foreing insurgents. Blowing their brains out wont work, as Georgie has learned, so now we have to let people who are qualified deal with it.

Iraqis are pissed at what we did, but true not neccessary at us. We let there be looting because we didn't stop it or defend the places. "Evil flourish when Good men do nothing" we should have listened.

Who are the people qualified? Why not let Iraqis take care of themselves?
Iraq would no longer be a target ground for Terorist to attack us.
That would call the terrorist's bluff and prove they aren't aiming at us, but just innocent civilians.

We can fix Iraq, if the people would actual try to support the Iraqis(Note: I said Iraqis, not [b]George Bush[/i]) in their struggle to create a stable state. If we leave now, we will be screwed for decades to come.

No "we" can't! Iraqis can fix Iraqi only! We can help, but we can't do it! It would be like lettting France do it back in the Revolutionary War. We have a great pride and satisfaction of out history because "we" did it! Not France, us!

If we leave now (still send funds/food), they will stand a better chance.
1) We will call Terrorists bluff and prove they aren't after us but innocent people.
2) Iraqis will be in contol of Iraq not us!
3) Our Soldiers are tired and need a little rest. Sure they could keep fighting much longer, but doesn't take away the tiredness.

That's where you are wrong. The democracy I am touting is not a "joke". To think of it in gaming terms, its in "Alpha" stage. It's not quite perfect, it's not even that great, but at least the people got to VOTE, and the people they voted for are in charge of their country.

Also, the Iraqis are not pissed at us. The majority are displeased that we are here, but only radical Sunnis(a small part of the population) and foreign terrorists are pissed at us enough to blow us, and their fellow Iraqis, to bits. We've raised power and water to above pre-war levels(although it seems like it's worse because we are evenly distributing it now, so instead of Sunnis getting it for 24 hours everyone gets it for 12). The only problem we have is that our genius leadership lacks a plan to deal with the Sunnis and foreing insurgents. Blowing their brains out wont work, as Georgie has learned, so now we have to let people who are qualified deal with it.

We can fix Iraq, if the people would actual try to support the Iraqis(Note: I said Iraqis, not [b]George Bush[/i]) in their struggle to create a stable state. If we leave now, we will be screwed for decades to come.
I'm sorry, but it is a joke, and you can bet that no matter how long the US is there, when we leave, a good chunk of those people in power will be coming out with us. Iraqi soldiers are afraid to go out on patrol without wearing masks, according to a recent article in the Washington Post--why? Because their lives are in danger from people in their neighborhoods. These insurgents aren't just Sunnis and foreign fighters--these people come from all backgrounds, and the longer we stay, the more they hate us.

And while there may have been a time when water and electricity were above pre-war levels, they've dipped back below those levels, according to an article, again from the WaPo from mid-May. Sorry--the article is behind an archive wall or I'd post a link.

Like I said above--I think we're screwed for decades regardless, so we might as well start taking our medicine now. I realize that's very pessimistic, but hey, the Bush administration hasn't given me much reason to be otherwise.

I'm sorry, but it is a joke, and you can bet that no matter how long the US is there, when we leave, a good chunk of those people in power will be coming out with us. Iraqi soldiers are afraid to go out on patrol without wearing masks, according to a recent article in the Washington Post--why? Because their lives are in danger from people in their neighborhoods. These insurgents aren't just Sunnis and foreign fighters--these people come from all backgrounds, and the longer we stay, the more they hate us.

And while there may have been a time when water and electricity were above pre-war levels, they've dipped back below those levels, according to an article, again from the WaPo from mid-May. Sorry--the article is behind an archive wall or I'd post a link.

Like I said above--I think we're screwed for decades regardless, so we might as well start taking our medicine now. I realize that's very pessimistic, but hey, the Bush administration hasn't given me much reason to be otherwise.


My article is from the BBC. And I saw it 4 days ago :p

The Shi'ites do not hate us: We gave them religious freedom again. The Kurds do not hate us: We have given them partial autonomy. The only people that dis-like us are the Sunnis. Even al-Sadr(the most anti-american Shi'ite leader) is willing to put down his arms in support of creating a stable and peaceful Iraqi state.

It's not that I support the Bush Administration, but I do support the Iraqis. Leaving now will lead to another Somalia. And you know how wonderful that is turning out. If we stay for another year or two, we can get Iraq back on it's feet.

We had less of a Plan than Halo 2 developers have a game before E3. (All they finished was a demo, they had to start over after E3.) It did create hope, but they had start over! As will we to get rid of the chaos we caused.

Now there's a gaming term I can actually understand!

My article is from the BBC. And I saw it 4 days ago :p

The Shi'ites do not hate us: We gave them religious freedom again. The Kurds do not hate us: We have given them partial autonomy. The only people that dis-like us are the Sunnis. Even al-Sadr(the most anti-american Shi'ite leader) is willing to put down his arms in support of creating a stable and peaceful Iraqi state.

It's not that I support the Bush Administration, but I do support the Iraqis. Leaving now will lead to another Somalia. And you know how wonderful that is turning out. If we stay for another year or two, we can get Iraq back on it's feet.
The WaPo article did note that it was close, and that the reason levels had dipped below pre-war levels was because of insurgent attacks, so things might have improved just enough to get back over those levels. I guarantee you that they're not that much better.

As far as the Shi'ites are concerned, there's little doubt that they're involved in the insurgency in some fashion, religious freedom or no. Sure, some of them like us, but some of them hate us as well. Only the Kurds seem really glad to have us there, and that'll last only as long as they have autonomy. They've got to be worried that we'll sell them out just like we did last time.

Look--I'd love for Iraq to turn out wonderfully, but I don't see how they avoid another civil war, even assuming a strongman leader comes to power. It's not like I've been of this mind long--I was a "we broke it, we've got to fix it" person for a long time, but I honestly believe that we've built up so much animosity, not only because of the invasion, but because of Abu Ghraib and other abuses, that there's no realistic way we can be part of the solution, short of providing money. Our personnel are more than targets--they're triggers for anti-US violence and sentiment, and the longer they're there, the longer it'll take for the Iraqis to put aside their hate and start rebuilding their country.

i might go.

*bump*

oops

We haven't created anything, other than a mess. That democracy you're touting is a joke, and the infrastructure now is in worse shape than it was before the war started. We've broken it and we can't fix it, because the Iraqis are so pissed at us that they'll never stop fighting as long as we're there.
Before you start making inane and inflammatory generalizations about the infrastructure problem in Iraq (and inferring that it was just fine when Saddam was in power), I suggest you do some reading.

From Mechanical Engineering Magazine - http://www.memagazine.org/backissues/june03/features/rbldiraq/rbldiraq.html
"We're hearing horrifying stories of how Saddam Hussein let the water and sanitation infrastructure run down as a means of controlling the Iraqi people," said Wendy Chamberlin, USAID's Assistant Administrator for Asia and the Near East, during a USAID Sectoral Conference on Electric and Water Systems. "We've found spare parts and new water and sanitation systems that were deliberately not installed."

Before you start making inane and inflammatory generalizations about the infrastructure problem in Iraq (and inferring that it was just fine when Saddam was in power), I suggest you do some reading.

From Mechanical Engineering Magazine - http://www.memagazine.org/backissues/june03/features/rbldiraq/rbldiraq.html
Nowhere in my post do I make the assertion that the situation was just fine before the war, so you can take your quip about me making "inane and inflammatory generalizations" and jam it straight up your ass--I use the pre-war levels as a baseline because that's what the US government uses as a comparison point when they're talking about the "progress" made in Iraq thus far. That's the only reason--they use the number, so I use it, so as not to have any dispute on the level of achievement made or not made by our rebuilding efforts.

Since this is big and I haven't heard advertisment about this, I thought I should post it here. Mark the calender for September 24-26 and get plane tickets for Washington D.C. my friends, our day will come!

http://unitedforpeace.org/article.php?list=type&type=91

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"--Thomas Jefferson



:rolleyes: