NationStates Jolt Archive


Is it just me, or is this a bit over the top???

Eutrusca
17-06-2005, 17:50
NOTE: I'm all for rooting out terrorists, both at home and abroad, and even those who seem to have terrorist leanings, contacts, etc., but this seems a bit extreme even for a pro-American internationalist. ( This article is four pages long. I posted the first page below. Click on the title to read the entire article. )


Questions, Bitterness and Exile for Queens Girl in Terror Case (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/17/nyregion/17suicide.html?hp&ex=1119067200&en=59dc0c13ad38064f&ei=5094&partner=homepage)

By NINA BERNSTEIN
Published: June 17, 2005

DHAKA, Bangladesh - Slumped at the edge of the bed she would have to share with four relatives that night, the 16-year-old girl from Queens looked stunned.

On the hot, dusty road from the airport, she had watched rickshaws surge past women sweeping the streets, bone-thin in their bright saris. Now, in a language she barely understood, unfamiliar aunts and uncles lamented her fate: to be forced to leave the United States, her home since kindergarten, because the F.B.I. had mysteriously identified her as a potential suicide bomber.

"I feel like I'm on a different planet," the girl, Tashnuba Hayder, said. "It just hit me. How everything happened - it's like, 'Oh, my God.' "

The story of how it happened - how Tashnuba, the pious, headstrong daughter of Muslim immigrants living in a neighborhood of tidy lawns and American flags, was labeled an imminent threat to national security - is still shrouded in government secrecy. After nearly seven weeks in detention, she was released in May on the condition that she leave the country immediately. Only immigration charges were brought against her and another 16-year-old New York girl, who was detained and released. Federal officials will not discuss the matter.

But as the first terror investigation in the United States known to involve minors, the case reveals how deeply concerned the government is that a teenager might become a terrorist, and the lengths to which federal agents will go if they get even a whiff of that possibility. And it has drawn widespread attention, stoking the debate over the right balance between government vigilance and the protection of individual freedoms.

It is not known what prompted the authorities to investigate Tashnuba, who says the accusations are false. But in a series of interviews - her first - she said the government had apparently discovered her visits to an Internet chat room where she took notes on sermons by a charismatic Islamic cleric in London, a sheik who has long been accused of encouraging suicide bombings.

An F.B.I. agent, posing as a youth counselor, first confronted Tashnuba in her bedroom, going through her school papers and questioning everything from her views on jihad to her posterless walls, she said. Sent to a center for delinquents in Pennsylvania, Tashnuba said she was interrogated without a lawyer or parent present, about her beliefs and those of her friends, mainly American girls she had met at city mosques.

As suicide bombings mount overseas, with teenage girls among the perpetrators, there is no doubt that the government's intelligence efforts are spurred by legitimate fears. The agent leading this investigation was a Muslim woman born in Britain who has voiced strong concern about radical clerics' influence on young immigrants there. And in Tashnuba, who wore a veil and talks of an ideal Islamic state, she met unsettling opinions and teenage defiance.

But Tashnuba says that she opposes suicide bombing, that her interest in the cleric was casual, and that the government treated her like a criminal simply for exercising the freedoms of speech and religion that America had taught her.

As she tells it, F.B.I. agents tried to twist mundane details of her life to fit the profile of a terrorist recruit, and when they could not make a case, covered their tracks by getting her out of the country. In fact, the court order of "voluntary departure" that let her leave requires a finding that the person is not deportable for endangering national security.

Tashnuba said she believed she was singled out precisely because she is a noncitizen - allowing investigators to invoke immigration law, bypassing the familiar limits of criminal and juvenile proceedings.

"That gave them the green light to get me out of my family," Tashnuba said during her long journey with her mother and siblings to this teeming city where she was born.

This account is, in large part, her version of events. Some of it is supported by documents and other interviews, but it cannot all be corroborated because a court has sealed the case record at the F.B.I.'s request and barred participants from disclosing government information. The government has declined repeated requests to present its side.

'Alarm Bells' for F.B.I.

Two former F.B.I. agents, presented with the known details of the case, declined to discuss it specifically, but spoke of the pressures and practices that shape such investigations today.

[ Continued (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/17/nyregion/17suicide.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5094&en=59dc0c13ad38064f&hp&ex=1119067200&partner=homepage) ]
Dobbsworld
17-06-2005, 17:59
Taken to its' logical conclusion, all teenagers have the capacity to possibly become involved in terror groups, whether domestic or international. The best course of action would be to pre-emptively deport all people under age 21 to the countries of their ancestry.

With the exception of First Nations peoples, natch. They can be in charge of executing the deportation orders.
Eutrusca
17-06-2005, 18:00
Taken to its' logical conclusion, all teenagers have the capacity to possibly become involved in terror groups, whether domestic or international. The best course of action would be to pre-emptively deport all people under age 21 to the countries of their ancestry.

With the exception of First Nations peoples, natch. They can be in charge of executing the deportation orders.
Well, considering I helped raise five of them, I can sometimes understand that impulse! Heh!
Willamena
17-06-2005, 18:01
That is outrageous.
Xanaz
17-06-2005, 18:03
Another article. You sure are giving The Red Arrows old record a run for the money!
Katzistanza
17-06-2005, 18:03
and the thing is, we can't even have an intelligent debate about weather she was a threat or not because the records have been sealed. Some will say because of national security, some will say because it shows there was no real evedence to detain her, based on what they believe about the US government.

"I'm all for rooting out terrorists, both at home and abroad, and even those who seem to have terrorist leanings, contacts, etc."

By "terrorist" leanings, do you mean might become a suicide bomber, or supports/don't hate "terrorists"?
Tactical Grace
17-06-2005, 18:10
"An F.B.I. agent, posing as a youth counselor, first confronted Tashnuba in her bedroom, going through her school papers and questioning everything from her views on jihad to her posterless walls, she said."

She...she...she could have been a nihilist! Even the Nazis believed in something! :eek:

( :rolleyes: )
Eutrusca
17-06-2005, 18:11
"I'm all for rooting out terrorists, both at home and abroad, and even those who seem to have terrorist leanings, contacts, etc."

By "terrorist" leanings, do you mean might become a suicide bomber, or supports/don't hate "terrorists"?
I mean when there is credible evidence that someone has contacts with known terrorists, has made statements to the effect that he or she approves of terrorist acts, etc. It appears that this girl was under suspicion for little more than being deeply committed to her religion.

I had to think long and hard before questioning the actions taken by the FBI in this case, perhaps because so many of the suicide bombers seem to be rather young. But not only does the "evidence" in this case seem rather thin, but I suspect the records were sealed at least in part to cover the lack of credible evidence.
Eutrusca
17-06-2005, 18:13
She...she...she could have been a nihilist! Even the Nazis believed in something! :eek:
OMG! :eek:
Sdaeriji
17-06-2005, 18:15
She...she...she could have been a nihilist! Even the Nazis believed in something! :eek:

"Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism; at least it's an ethos!"
Dobbsworld
17-06-2005, 18:19
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/06/13/canadian-bomb050613.html

'I am Canadian' teen guilty on bomb charges
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last Updated Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:45:21 EDT
CBC News
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A 17-year-old Canadian faces up to four years in custody after being found guilty Monday of plotting to blow up his school in Pennsylvania.

Travis Biehn's case made headlines in the United States because he had made anti-American statements and wore an "I am Canadian" T-shirt to an early court appearance.

School officials in Doylestown, Pa., who alerted police about a bomb threat found written on a washroom wall, said the Grade 11 student was open about how much he disliked living in the U.S.

Biehn's parents are both from Newfoundland. The family has been living south of the border since 1997.

When Biehn's bedroom was searched, police found several kilograms of potassium nitrate, which can be used to make explosives.

He was charged with uttering terrorist threats and possessing incendiary devices.

Psychologists will interview Biehn over the next 20 days as the next step leading up to his sentencing.

The maximum penalty could keep him behind bars until he turns 21.

His defenders said Biehn was caught up in a post-9/11 witch hunt.

They pointed out that Travis and his father, Brant Biehn, a marketing executive at pharmaceutical company Merck, often launched rockets to entertain themselves and their neighbours.

They speculated the potassium nitrate was related to that hobby.
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Don't you feel safer knowing some snot-nosed kid who never wanted to live in the States in the first place will be someone's jailhouse bride for the next four years? Doesn't it make you feel more secure knowing this teenager is being given the shaft because of some anonymous note found at his school?

No? You must be a terrorist sympathizer, then... :rolleyes:
Tactical Grace
17-06-2005, 18:20
"Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism; at least it's an ethos!"
Great movie! :D
Willamena
17-06-2005, 18:21
I just thank Brad that I live in a country with freedom of association built into our constitution.
Sinuhue
17-06-2005, 18:22
Well frankly, any one of us who come on these forums and speak out about our governments, or make silly statements about violence that we don't really mean, could be profiled as a 'threat' if someone really wanted to make the case. That's always been something that has worried me...and it's not just idle paranoia. Right now, muslims are being targeted...but post 911 when Canada first introduced anti-terrorism legislation and activist groups began being targeted, a number of members of poverty/human rights groups mysteriously had their 'right' to enter the US revoked for 3 years. No explanations are required, no threat must be proven. All of these people belonged to the same online social-justice forum that was highly critical of the US.
Willamena
17-06-2005, 18:23
Travis Biehn's case made headlines in the United States because he had made anti-American statements and wore an "I am Canadian" T-shirt to an early court appearance.
That's like 80% of the kids in Canada.
Potaria
17-06-2005, 18:24
Just another reason for me to move to another country when I get the money to do so.
Achtung 45
17-06-2005, 18:25
nice to see you back Eutrusca! :)
Dobbsworld
17-06-2005, 18:28
That's like 80% of the kids in Canada.

Yup. These Americans have absolutely no sense of perspective.
Marmite Toast
17-06-2005, 18:34
Maybe one day people will realise that the US Government is the problem, not the solution.

Digressing a bit:
Are there any nations in the world that actually respect freedom? I may have to move to one when the UK becomes Airstrip One (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airstrip_One).
Dobbsworld
17-06-2005, 18:40
Are there any nations in the world that actually respect freedom?

Switzerland?

I dunno...
Kevarzangia Two
17-06-2005, 18:40
Yup. These Americans have absolutely no sense of perspective.

Maybe one day people will realise that the US Government is the problem, not the solution.

I totally agree with you guys, and I'm an American. Look out! Now I'm going to be deported to Germany!
Whoadamnn
17-06-2005, 18:42
the article is entirely from the girl's point-of-view, of course it will try to make the governments actions look absurd. i wouldn't be so quick to judge until i heard their reasoning.
Dobbsworld
17-06-2005, 18:46
the article is entirely from the girl's point-of-view, of course it will try to make the governments actions look absurd. i wouldn't be so quick to judge until i heard their reasoning.

That's okay. Leave it to me - I don't live there, so I can't be deported or left to the tender mercies of the inmates of some federal penetentiary.

Of course, unless someone, somewhere in the current admin decides to have my un-American ass extradited to the States for some reason...
Non Aligned States
17-06-2005, 18:47
Whoadamnn, willing to listen to both sides of an argument is a very level headed thing to do. However, that means both sides must be willing to disclose their stories.

Which hardly seems likely since the records were sealed.
Eutrusca
17-06-2005, 18:47
Just another reason for me to move to another country when I get the money to do so.
"Move" or "cop-out?" :)
Potaria
17-06-2005, 18:49
"Move" or "cop-out?" :)

Not quite sure what you mean by this, but I'll definitely not be living here in my 20's.
Dobbsworld
17-06-2005, 18:49
"Move" or "cop-out?" :)

How about, "give up"? As in "giving up in exasperation"?
Eutrusca
17-06-2005, 18:54
Not quite sure what you mean by this, but I'll definitely not be living here in my 20's.
That saddens me. Don't you think that it's better to try and change things to what you would like to see happen than to simply take your marbles and leave? :(
Eutrusca
17-06-2005, 18:54
How about, "give up"? As in "giving up in exasperation"?
That's sad too. How long have you struggled to change things to what you would like to see happen???
Potaria
17-06-2005, 18:56
That saddens me. Don't you think that it's better to try and change things to what you would like to see happen than to simply take your marbles and leave? :(

I do think that would be nice, but you know something?

I'd rather be alive than dead. You can probably figure out what I'm saying.
Carops
17-06-2005, 18:57
this seems silly.........
Whispering Legs
17-06-2005, 18:59
the government had apparently discovered her visits to an Internet chat room where she took notes on sermons by a charismatic Islamic cleric in London

Some people in the US who visit and post certain foreign sites need to know that most of them are being watched.

You can also take it as a given that mosques in the US are being watched.
Marmite Toast
17-06-2005, 18:59
That saddens me. Don't you think that it's better to try and change things to what you would like to see happen than to simply take your marbles and leave? :(

A good point, but people seem to love being mindless drones so much that the only way to get them to change the world is to make them mindless drones for a good cause, which totally defeats the object, as the cause can be corrupt and the people will still serve it regardless.
Dobbsworld
17-06-2005, 19:26
That's sad too. How long have you struggled to change things to what you would like to see happen???

Far


too


long.


Frankly I've resigned myself to the far-less glamorous struggle to positively influence individuals so as to encourage the furtherance of the values I espouse. It doesn't make the news, but hopefully will bring about the changes I would 'like to see happen'. See, Eutrusca, it's not about me. It's not about what I, or any one person wants to see happen - it's about what must come about, what must happen. We need to allow ourselves to grow up, to take stock of ourselves and chart a 'career path', if you will. I'm not about to give you some sort of socio-philisophical manifesto, as I actually have some things I need to do today (believe it or not), but I'll say this much - the multiple layers of "authoritarian" (i.e. authority-driven), hierarchical structures that at one time or another have fostered development and growth, protected populations, or granted freedoms where there were none are now actively engaged in retarding the fundaments of the societies they serve.

At this point in time, now more so perhaps than at any other, we as a species are poised at the brink of a fundamental shift in perceptions, which would invariably lead to a shift in values - across the board. So I believe, deeply. I am persuaded to believe that there are others who are are also aware of this air of potentiality that is swirling in the ether, all around us yet maddeningly impossible to directly sense. Like a word, forgotten, dancing tantalyzingly on the tip of your tongue.

But this is getting away, far far away, from the topic at hand. And I am getting behind myself.
Non Aligned States
18-06-2005, 04:46
Regarding the conversation on the public being drones.

I am suddenly reminded of the Matrix, where people would fight to maintain a delusion even though they may be informed it is not real. Maybe the Wachowski brothers were onto something and we didn't know. :ninja:
Katzistanza
18-06-2005, 13:59
On this vein, very few things piss me off more then when someone says "you don't like the government, then leave!"
Harlesburg
18-06-2005, 14:13
Simple label everyone a Terrorist!
He took my cup cakehttp://www.njscuba.net/artifacts/ship_tanker.html
TERRORIST!