NationStates Jolt Archive

If Bush wants to find a theocratic regime, he doesn't have to look far.
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendID=7428306&Mytoken=20050604221047

I'm aware that the blog isn't a credible source, so, this is the camp's website.
http://asafeplace.org/
These parents are shipping their kid to a camp where he can't:
-read any "non-approved" literature.
-watch any "non-approved" movies/tv.
-listen to any "non-Christian" music.
And 4 million other things, including regulated hair and beard lengths, prohibitions against tank tops, sports bras, and anything from Abercrombie and Fitch or Calvin Klein.
All because he's willing to admit he's gay! The site classifies homosexuality as a "broken and addictive behavior" similar to "pornography, drugs and alcohol, and sexual promiscuity."

What. The. Fuck.

1984 seems more and more true every damn day.

Wow - Religious Right heaven! :rolleyes:

Damn that's just wrong!

If Bush wants to find a theocratic regime, he doesn't have to look far.
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendID=7428306&Mytoken=20050604221047

I'm aware that the blog isn't a credible source, so, this is the camp's website.
http://asafeplace.org/
These parents are shipping their kid to a camp where he can't:
-read any "non-approved" literature.
-watch any "non-approved" movies/tv.
-listen to any "non-Christian" music.
And 4 million other things, including regulated hair and beard lengths, prohibitions against tank tops, sports bras, and anything from Abercrombie and Fitch or Calvin Klein.
All because he's willing to admit he's gay! The site classifies homosexuality as a "broken and addictive behavior" similar to "pornography, drugs and alcohol, and sexual promiscuity."

What. The. Fuck.

1984 seems more and more true every damn day.

What. The. Fuck. Exactly!

This is an optional camp... its not like kids are being shipped here for juvenile detention or something. Being in a free country means that things like this camp are free to exist. :rolleyes:

Hah, I'm the other 3 of the four things listed. I'd masterbate until they chucked me out.

What. The. Fuck. Exactly!

This is an optional camp... its not like kids are being shipped here for juvenile detention or something. Being in a free country means that things like this camp are free to exist. :rolleyes:

I would agree with that..
But since you can be sent against your will by your parents, I say sending someone who really didn't want to go would qualify as emotional abuse.

If I read correctly, he isn't introducing legislation to make this a nationally mandatory thing (Not that I would mind, but I'm sure most of you would ;)), so what is your issue with it? What, are we Christians banned from private adherences to our beliefs like we are from public?

Erm.. I'm pretty sure you posted that in the wrong thread.

I would agree with that..
But since you can be sent against your will by your parents, I say sending someone who really didn't want to go would qualify as emotional abuse.



Following that logic, so would school, anger management classes, church, etc. Parents have the right to send there kids anywhere that is not a threat to their safety. Emotional abuse? Hardly.

How about a threat to his mental safety?

He's being told his sexuality is wrong, and on scale with drug abuse.
He's being cut off from all outside communication.
He's being cut off from all media, including literature.
Hell, I'd probably go insane and blow the damn place up if I got put in there.

And notice the rules, at the bottom, specifically prohibit you from telling the poor bugger who's being sent what the rules are. Essentially, you are supposed to send him uninformed, unready, and probably unwilling. Classic brainwashing tactics.

See, this is where I wish I were ruler of the universe. People who even think about creating places like these should be forced to undergo radical aversion therapy, where they're forced to go through their own camp. THen they should have each of their limbs amputated without anesthetic.

How about a threat to his mental safety?

He's being told his sexuality is wrong, and on scale with drug abuse.
He's being cut off from all outside communication.
He's being cut off from all media, including literature.
Hell, I'd probably go insane and blow the damn place up if I got put in there.


So, he's being restricted from promiscuity and communication/media. Your point? EVERYONE was restricted from the communication we have today prior to its invention (which was not so long ago) and I don't think 99.9% of humanity has gone insane. He can deal with it. And, if he's not insane in the first place, I'm sure he can go a week or two without porn or masturbation :rolleyes:

Following that logic, so would school, anger management classes, church, etc. Parents have the right to send there kids anywhere that is not a threat to their safety. Emotional abuse? Hardly.

If the children are gay, most definitely! The other things could all be emotional abuse given circumstances.

See, this is where I wish I were ruler of the universe. People who even think about creating places like these should be forced to undergo radical aversion therapy, where they're forced to go through their own camp. THen they should have each of their limbs amputated without anesthetic


I've been to a Christian camp several times, and I've retained my sanity quite easily. Some people just have a hard time exhibiting self-control...

If the children are gay, most definitely! The other things could all be emotional abuse given circumstances.


If being told that what you're doing is wrong causes trauma, then you have other issues to work out...

I've been to a Christian camp several times, and I've retained my sanity quite easily. Some people just have a hard time exhibiting self-control...

... or believing in silly things like religion.

If being told that what you're doing is wrong causes trauma,

Yes, it does, when what you are doing isn't wrong and when you are de-facto being imprisoned and forced to listen to such crap.

then you have other issues to work out...

Oh, you shouldn't throw bricks.

This is ridiculous!

I can accept Christian fundamentalism... but this is too much. It's not just ridiculous, it's scary. I've never seen any but a few of these arguments from fundamentalists. It makes no sense whatsoever. (All I read was the rules.) I mean, what do they have against computers? Why can't people leave their rooms or even talk to anybody?! Why do they have to wear clothes?! I mean, come on people!

So, he's being restricted from promiscuity and communication/media. Your point? EVERYONE was restricted from the communication we have today prior to its invention (which was not so long ago) and I don't think 99.9% of humanity has gone insane. He can deal with it. And, if he's not insane in the first place, I'm sure he can go a week or two without porn or masturbation :rolleyes:

It's much harder to give something up once you have had it. If you have never heard of freedom, it's hard to envy it. Besides, did you read the full rules list?
You can't even hug other people. You're not even allowed to dream about sex. You can't keep a diary.
"While on the LIA campus, Refuge clients must be in phase at all times, whether indoors or out of doors. A client is ³in phase² when he or she is with two or more other clients (whether Refuge or residential,) one of whom must have been in the program for at least eight weeks. Exceptions to phase rules will be granted by C.O.C. request only."

"6. Clients may have no contact with anyone who has left the program prior to graduating without the blessing of the staff to do so. Clients may address off-limit persons they inadvertently encounter with a polite "hello" only.

7. While in the program, clients may have no contact with anyone involved in unrepentant emotional dependencies, inappropriate sexual behaviors, or chemical dependencies. This includes any contact with friends struggling with dependency issues or inappropriate sexual behavior that was known about prior to entering the program. If such a person is encountered, the client must make his/her staff worker aware of this."

And that's just the worst.

I've been to a Christian camp several times, and I've retained my sanity quite easily. Some people just have a hard time exhibiting self-control...
You, however, are not gay, being forced to go, or decieved by your own parents.

You, however, are not gay, being forced to go, and decieved by your own parents.

I wonder how much he'd bitch if he were forced to go to an atheist camp where he would be assailed with propaganda against Christianity and also precluded from contact with the outside world and from practising his religion.

Probably quite a lot. Almost anyone would.

... or believing in silly things like religion.


Silly things like religion, which have a feasible explanation for the origin of the universe and life, unlike cosmology and biology ;)

See, this is where I wish I were ruler of the universe. People who even think about creating places like these should be forced to undergo radical aversion therapy, where they're forced to go through their own camp. THen they should have each of their limbs amputated without anesthetic.I might retire and give you the job. I didn't even know this place existed. Man, am I a failure... :(

~Czardas, (Formerly) Supreme Ruler of the Universe

Silly things like religion, which have a feasible explanation for the origin of the universe and life, unlike cosmology and biology ;)

I don't consider "God made it" feasible.

I would agree with that..
But since you can be sent against your will by your parents, I say sending someone who really didn't want to go would qualify as emotional abuse.

That may or may not be right, depending on the case, but it certainly does not point to a Bushian 1984 plot. ;)

Yes, it does, when what you are doing isn't wrong and when you are de-facto being imprisoned and forced to listen to such crap.

But it IS wrong, so the point is moot.

Silly things like religion, which have a feasible explanation for the origin of the universe and life, unlike cosmology and biology ;)

"The wizard in the sky did it" is as feasible as Zeus turning into a bull and impregnating Europa.

But it IS wrong, so the point is moot.

No it isn't. I do it all the time - there's nothing wrong with it and hurts no one. What, should I care what you claim your little deity thinks? It is your "point" that is moot.

That may or may not be right, depending on the case, but it certainly does not point to a Bushian 1984 plot. ;)
That wasn't what I said it was. I was just making extremely sarcastic comments. This has nothing to do with Bush.

But it IS wrong, so the point is moot.
WHAT is wrong and why?

But it IS wrong, so the point is moot.

It's only wrong by your standards. Therefore YOUR point is moot.

And that's just the worst.You're also not allowed to use a cell phone, beeper, computer, the internet, an MP3 player, or any technology. You have to wear clothes all the time, too. You can't talk to anyone, leave the premises, or have any secrets. I'd kill myself before going to a place like this. Fortunately I'm a trained fighter, and my parents wouldn't dare send me to a camp like that (and if I was forced to go, well, let's just say I'd be saddled with quite a few hospital bills;)).

I don't consider "God made it" feasible.


Because you adhere to the philosophy of materialism? If something exists on a different plane, it cannot be observed and therefore is not subject to science. I doubt the origin of the universe will ever have a scientific explanation, because it itself DEFIES science. For every effect there must be a cause. There is no spontaneous generation. Science is not the only discipline which relies on logic. When something cannot be observed, leave it to the philosophers and theologians instead of flatly denying its existence. We have no proof, and we probably never will. So are we to allow our very presence to be a logical impossibility? We are here, therefore something outside of the material dimension must have made us or caused us to be.

:eek:

Oh, I am so glad I'm 19 and my parents can't make me do anything.

The no sports bras rule outside of working out rule is dumb. I need to wear one because of my unique physiology. Heck, nearly all the rules are stupid.

I go willingly to a Christian camp (I'm a young leader there), but it's nothing like that.

EDIT: Ouch, have you seen how much they charge for that thing? $1,500 for two weeks, $4,000 for six. Not only is the poor kid getting a raw deal, the parents are being ripped off as well.

You're also not allowed to use a cell phone, beeper, computer, the internet, an MP3 player, or any technology. You have to wear clothes all the time, too. You can't talk to anyone, leave the premises, or have any secrets. I'd kill myself before going to a place like this. Fortunately I'm a trained fighter, and my parents wouldn't dare send me to a camp like that (and if I was forced to go, well, let's just say I'd be saddled with quite a few hospital bills).


...Ok....I'm sure the "must wear clothes at all time" rule doesn't include showers.....so what is the issue? Also, if you attacked your parents you would have a bit more than hospital bills to deal with...

Until someone can prove God exists via observable fact, I cannot, and will not allow him into the realm of science. He is not allowed to be a cause of something until it is proved he can even be a cause.

It's only wrong by your standards. Therefore YOUR point is moot.


It's only right by your standards. Therefore YOUR point is moot ;)

Until someone can prove God exists via observable fact, I cannot, and will not allow him into the realm of science.


Yes...I kind of alluded to that.....God has no place in Science because science deals with the physical, not the spiritual. Science isn't the only truth you know....

Because you adhere to the philosophy of materialism? If something exists on a different plane, it cannot be observed and therefore is not subject to science. I doubt the origin of the universe will ever have a scientific explanation, because it itself DEFIES science. For every effect there must be a cause. There is no spontaneous generation. Science is not the only discipline which relies on logic. When something cannot be observed, leave it to the philosophers and theologians instead of flatly denying its existence. We have no proof, and we probably never will. So are we to allow our very presence to be a logical impossibility? We are here, therefore something outside of the material dimension must have made us or caused us to be.
God has not been proven to exist; therfore He must exist.



As for the camp...well...let's just say every parent who sends his/her kid to that camp needs to be immediately flung into the nearest asylum.

He is not allowed to be a cause of something until it is proved he can even be a cause.



To observe Him causing something, he would need to cause something...and ever since the days of the New Testament, he's had a hands-off policy in the world. So, I wouldn't hold my breath for scientific proof ;)

Yes...I kind of alluded to that.....God has no place in Science because science deals with the physical, not the spiritual. Science isn't the only truth you know....
It is the only truth. There is no evidence for the spiritual, therefore it.. well, it's impossible to show it doesn't exists, so let's just say it's totally irrelevant.

<snip>Man, am I a failure... :(

~Czardas, (Formerly) Supreme Ruler of the Universe
Of course you're not! You have fallen victim to the same fault as many of us Earthlings though: posting when you should be working!
Reclaim your title and get back to work!

...Ok....I'm sure the "must wear clothes at all time" rule doesn't include showers.....so what is the issue? Also, if you attacked your parents you would have a bit more than hospital bills to deal with...I wouldn't attack my parents, they're far too nice (and they won't send me anyway b/c they're left-wing socialist atheist libertarians ;)). I'm talking about whatever police staff they have around the camp. And besides my excuse would be self-defense, so I'd have only a short jail sentence of three years or so.

I can be very violent. Which is rather a pity. I've always felt rather sorry for that bully in 5th grade... ;)

I would hope that these people do not seek to cure homosexuality. Rather, I expect this to be a retreat from obsessive self-gratification. Many young adults truly need protection from themselves. If anybody wanted to recruit for some right wing agenda, they could find more fertile ground elsewhere. The rules are there because they work for the success of the patient, in spite of the concentration-camp parallels that could be inferred.

God has not been proven to exist; therfore He must exist.


His existence CANNOT be proven, as I said earlier, we cannot observe anything outside this dimension. We will never know until we're dead. However, this universe coming into existence is itself evidence suggesting that Someone or something in another dimension or plane of reality has acted upon this dimension. Perhaps God, perhaps not God, but SOMETHING.

I would hope that these people do not seek to cure homosexuality. Rather, I expect this to be a retreat from obsessive self-gratification. Many young adults truly need protection from themselves. If anybody wanted to recruit for some right wing agenda, they could find more fertile ground elsewhere. The rules are there because they work for the success of the patient, in spite of the concentration-camp parallels that could be inferred.
Nope. The charter of the camp quite clearly states it is going to try and "cure" homosexuality.

Of course you're not! You have fallen victim to the same fault as many of us Earthlings though: posting when you should be working!
Reclaim your title and get back to work!Yes! Finally some encouragement! Not everyone hates me!!! :D

I'm working and posting at the same time btw. That seems a good idea to me. At the moment I've been trying to draft the Alpha Centauri Convention for dealing with prisoners...and it's extremely boring, Terra (Earth to you humans) is spinning out of control, basically I can't control everything at once....in other words, I need an assistant. I'm only one person, er class-Alpha extraplanar energy being!!

I think I'll advertise on the General forum.

~Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe

It is the only truth. There is no evidence for the spiritual, therefore it.. well, it's impossible to show it doesn't exists, so let's just say it's totally irrelevant.


Science is not the only truth, just the only truth which can be perceived by the senses.

This is a clear violation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child)

I really shouldn't show this to my old school....

Bush would never touch these people: he's against gays and a fundie christian, remember? But this is clearly emotional torture. More info on everything it violates as I get it.

Nope. The charter of the camp quite clearly states it is going to try and "cure" homosexuality.


Cure?....Homosexuality is as much part of the psychosis as is sadism, heterosexuality, and pedophilia IMO....you cannot cure it without removing some part of the brain :D So really the only course of action is to abstain from practicing it. Much like someone who wishes to kill a person would abstain from doing that (At least I hope :eek: )

This is a clear violation


Having read it, I see no violation at all. In fact, it more or less boosts parental rights in this case :D

Much like someone who wishes to kill a person would abstain from doing thatThey would?






Oops.....................

Cure?....Homosexuality is as much part of the psychosis as is sadism, heterosexuality, and pedophilia IMO....you cannot cure it without removing some part of the brain :D So really the only course of action is to abstain from practicing it. Much like someone who wishes to kill a person would abstain from doing that (At least I hope :eek: )
How would you like to be made right-handed if you were left-handed?

OH MY GOD!!!

This is absolutely terrible,I mean really... I'm not gay in any way, but I feel for this kid. This is an evil thing. This is an absolute perversion of what religon is supposed to be. I am right wing, and to a point religous Catholic, but i see this as a seriously bad thing. Fundamentalism is a curse upon the Christian faith and it makes the rest of us look like bigots... I feel soo bad for this kid..

Yes! Finally some encouragement! Not everyone hates me!!! :D

I'm working and posting at the same time btw. That seems a good idea to me. At the moment I've been trying to draft the Alpha Centauri Convention for dealing with prisoners...and it's extremely boring, Terra (Earth to you humans) is spinning out of control, basically I can't control everything at once....in other words, I need an assistant. I'm only one person, er class-Alpha extraplanar energy being!!

I think I'll advertise on the General forum.

~Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe
You should take a lesson (sacralicious I know) from an Earth occupation called "CEO". Essentially you find a group of not totally imcompetent subordinates and put them in charge of small sections of your Universe. If anything works, it's your honour for having selected them and if it fails they are sacrificable idiots.

Cure?....Homosexuality is as much part of the psychosis as is sadism, heterosexuality, and pedophilia IMO....you cannot cure it without removing some part of the brain :D So really the only course of action is to abstain from practicing it. Much like someone who wishes to kill a person would abstain from doing that (At least I hope :eek: )

Comparing homosexuality to sadism and pedophilia is complete rubbish. Both those perversions hurt others. The only thing homosexuals "hurt" is the fragile mentalities of bigots such as yourself.

This is a clear violation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child)

I really shouldn't show this to my old school....

Bush would never touch these people: he's against gays and a fundie christian, remember? But this is clearly emotional torture. More info on everything it violates as I get it.

Umm, if you actually read farther down, it says that the US has not ratified it, so it doesn't really apply here...

You should take a lesson (sacralicious I know) from an Earth occupation called "CEO". Essentially you find a group of not totally imcompotent subordinates and put them in charge of small sections of your Universe. If anything works, it's your honour for having selected them and if it fails they are sacrificable idiots.You know, that's a great idea. I may be conceited and egotistical, but I'm not 'above' taking advice from you pitiful Earthlings. I'll try your plan and see if it works.

I certainly hope it does. Elections are coming in only a couple million years and I'm trying to get reelected. At the moment I can only hope that the opposition candidate is more of an idiot than I am.

Having read it, I see no violation at all. In fact, it more or less boosts parental rights in this case :D
Point. I was actually looking for the Rights of the Child, which I have actually read, which mentions "not to be tortured, emotionally or physically". And, even if this were in violation of what I posted, it wouldn't matter because it isn't valid here! :headbang: :headbang:

Still, these people are lucky that they're in Tennessee, not Texas....
:mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5:

You know, that's a great idea. I may be conceited and egotistical, but I'm not 'above' taking advice from you pitiful Earthlings. I'll try your plan and see if it works.

I certainly hope it does. Elections are coming in only a couple million years and I'm trying to get reelected. At the moment I can only hope that the opposition candidate is more of an idiot than I am.
You've got it already! If it works good on you for listening, if it doesn't...oh.

Comparing homosexuality to sadism and pedophilia is complete rubbish. Both those perversions hurt others. The only thing homosexuals "hurt" is the fragile mentalities of bigots such as yourself.


It is an abomination before God....many seem to assume that if it doesn't affect a human negatively, then it's alright. And ad hominem arguments like calling me a bigot doesn't help your case at all.

Still, these people are lucky that they're in Tennessee, not Texas....


Gun people down for exercizing their rights as parents to shield their children from immorality? THAT is the only crime in this thread.

It is an abomination before God....many seem to assume that if it doesn't affect a human negatively, then it's alright. And ad hominem arguments like calling me a bigot doesn't help your case at all.
Telling us our points are moot because you don't agree doesn't help yours... ;)

Gun people down for exercizing their rights as parents to shield their children from immorality? THAT is the only crime in this thread.I'm sorry, but if everything in that camp is immorality, you shouldn't be using the internet, using a computer, or even posting anything. You shouldn't be here. I always wonder how all those conservative fundamentalists justify getting on the internet on the first place.

We're trying to help you by shielding you from sin. Get offline before you are corrupted by our immoral, left-wing, atheist views!

Telling us our points are moot because you don't agree doesn't help yours...


I wasn't deeming it moot merely because I disagreed, but because it was moot :)

I'm sorry, but if everything in that camp is immorality, you shouldn't be using the internet, using a computer, or even posting anything. You shouldn't be here. I always wonder how all those conservative fundamentalists justify getting on the internet on the first place.



You're downplaying the issue. Being on a computer itself wasn't the problem, it was the websites he could access that were. If you send a child to camp to keep him from viewing pornographic sites, then would you want him viewing pornographic sites?

I wonder how much he'd bitch if he were forced to go to an atheist camp where he would be assailed with propaganda against Christianity and also precluded from contact with the outside world and from practising his religion.

Christians are in that atheist camp. It's called the world. The Bible points out that we are "in the world, but not of it" because we have no worldly master. It also points out, quite accurately, that Christians always have been and always will be persecuted out of fear and hate. We've been in this camp for thousands of years, and all the Christians at this camp are trying to do is help out a lost and confused soul. You can see just how lost and confused he is by reading the whole site. He does need help, and not medical help. His problem is spiritual. And you can sit there and say "homosexuality is genetic" and "homosexuality is not a choice," but then you cannot explain the countless homosexuals who successfully abandoned their orientation through the help of Christians, like Dr. Dobson. It is a spiritual issue at stake here.

Christians are in that atheist camp. It's called the world. The Bible points out that we are "in the world, but not of it" because we have no worldly master. It also points out, quite accurately, that Christians always have been and always will be persecuted out of fear and hate. We've been in this camp for thousands of years, and all the Christians at this camp are trying to do is help out a lost and confused soul. You can see just how lost and confused he is by reading the whole site. He does need help, and not medical help. His problem is spiritual. And you can sit there and say "homosexuality is genetic" and "homosexuality is not a choice," but then you cannot explain the countless homosexuals who successfully abandoned their orientation through the help of Christians, like Dr. Dobson. It is a spiritual issue at stake here.


It's about time someone said it.

You're downplaying the issue. Being on a computer itself wasn't the problem, it was the websites he could access that were. If you send a child to camp to keep him from viewing pornographic sites, then would you want him viewing pornographic sites?It says specifically that no-one in the camp can use a computer or the internet. It also says one isn't allowed to look at pornography. Haven't they ever heard of filters? If it was just pornography they could block that out on all computers in the area (i.e. give you a filtered computer). But they don't allow you to have a computer at all. It doesn't matter what you do with it. You're not allowed to have one. Why not? It's immoral. Hence you shouldn't be online at the moment.

It says specifically that no-one in the camp can use a computer or the internet. It also says one isn't allowed to look at pornography. Haven't they ever heard of filters? If it was just pornography they could block that out on all computers in the area (i.e. give you a filtered computer). But they don't allow you to have a computer at all. It doesn't matter what you do with it. You're not allowed to have one. Why not? It's immoral. Hence you shouldn't be online at the moment.


There are ways to get around the filters, just ask my brother :rolleyes:

That wasn't what I said it was. I was just making extremely sarcastic comments. This has nothing to do with Bush.

Er... that's the gist of post #1... :confused:

There are ways to get around the filters, just ask my brother :rolleyes:Please explain how.

Filters could be designed to block certain websites. You would then have no way of getting to the websites.

Alternately the computers could just have no internet access. What could be so bad about just having a computer? Simply don't subscribe to an ISP. The computer will be unable to get online. Why then are they banning computers? Paranoia?

Christians are in that atheist camp. It's called the world. The Bible points out that we are "in the world, but not of it" because we have no worldly master. It also points out, quite accurately, that Christians always have been and always will be persecuted out of fear and hate. We've been in this camp for thousands of years, and all the Christians at this camp are trying to do is help out a lost and confused soul. You can see just how lost and confused he is by reading the whole site. He does need help, and not medical help. His problem is spiritual. And you can sit there and say "homosexuality is genetic" and "homosexuality is not a choice," but then you cannot explain the countless homosexuals who successfully abandoned their orientation through the help of Christians, like Dr. Dobson. It is a spiritual issue at stake here.
To be honest, being left-handed is not a choice. But then you cannot explain the countless lefties that have successfully abandonded their orientation through the "help" of others like Chancellor Schröder of Germany.

It says specifically that no-one in the camp can use a computer or the internet. It also says one isn't allowed to look at pornography. Haven't they ever heard of filters? If it was just pornography they could block that out on all computers in the area (i.e. give you a filtered computer). But they don't allow you to have a computer at all. It doesn't matter what you do with it. You're not allowed to have one. Why not? It's immoral. Hence you shouldn't be online at the moment.

We must remove temptations if there is to be any recovery. It's like trying to stay on a diet while you sit in a bakery. It doesn't work. And yes, there are always ways around any filter. Trust me, I know, because I used to struggle with pornography myself. Filters don't help, only staying away from using computers in a non-public area.

We must remove temptations if there is to be any recovery. It's like trying to stay on a diet while you sit in a bakery. It doesn't work. And yes, there are always ways around any filter. Trust me, I know, because I used to struggle with pornography myself. Filters don't help, only staying away from using computers in a non-public area.Then why do they want to ban non-internet computers? Why do they want to ban cell phones? Why do they want to ban beepers? You can't access porn on any of those. I can understand if they ban those pop culture magazines with 'immoral' pictures (I don't consider such pictures immoral, but then that's just me...), but cell phones, beepers, even simple verbal communication with non-sanctioned individuals? What's wrong with that?

Then why do they want to ban non-internet computers? Why do they want to ban cell phones? Why do they want to ban beepers? You can't access porn on any of those. I can understand if they ban those pop culture magazines with 'immoral' pictures (I don't consider such pictures immoral, but then that's just me...), but cell phones, beepers, even simple verbal communication with non-sanctioned individuals? What's wrong with that?

It keeps the individual focused on healing. It's like praying with heavy metal playing. Again, it just doesn't work. By keeping distractions to a minimum and keeping the individual focused on healing, the therapy is more effective.

It is an abomination before God....many seem to assume that if it doesn't affect a human negatively, then it's alright. And ad hominem arguments like calling me a bigot doesn't help your case at all.

There is no god. Your point is moot.

It keeps the individual focused on healing. It's like praying with heavy metal playing. Again, it just doesn't work. By keeping distractions to a minimum and keeping the individual focused on healing, the therapy is more effective.

Yes, it's kind of like trying to do homework on a wireless-enabled computer. It just doesn't work (although it's accounted for 75% of my postcount, lol).


I just have a question: what is it that they need to heal, if the therapy has to be so intensive? It can't be mental disorders, as many people would go mad in isolation (I was alone for 24 hours the other day and became really depressed and sick). If it is, healing one mental disorder by another doesn't seem like very much help done.

Er... that's the gist of post #1... :confused:

Nope. Read it again. I'm wondering why Bush is off crusading against fundie rights deprivers in other countries (Taliban) while this happens in the US.

Annnnnyway. There's another reason I'm so firmly against this. You shouldn't be able to force anyone to go anywhere unless what they are doing could cause potential harm under US law. I'm not against reasonable forced movement: moving someone into an asylum because they could harm themselves or others. But forcing someone into a camp this restrictive because they're gay? The fact that they're gay isn't going to harm anyone. As someone who is still legally a child, I say that that is totally absurd. Your parents should not be allowed to force you to go somewhere like this without telling you what will happen there and your consent. The fact that the rules clearly instruct the parents not to tell the kid what will happen there shows that this is clearly not right.

Nope. Read it again. I'm wondering why Bush is off crusading against fundie rights deprivers in other countries (Taliban) while this happens in the US.
He only went against the Taliban when everyone pointed out that the terrorist camps were in Afghanistan and not Iraq. He made oil deals with them before that.

He only went against the Taliban when everyone pointed out that the terrorist camps were in Afghanistan and not Iraq. He made oil deals with them before that.Yes, I've always distrusted George Bush's motives for invading Afghanistan...


...but we're hijacking this thread.

He only went against the Taliban when everyone pointed out that the terrorist camps were in Afghanistan and not Iraq. He made oil deals with them before that.
Doesn't change the fact that he's busy "liberating" overseas while this happens.

Heh, maybe we should get back to the topic...
By the way, would someone bother refuting my claims about lefties? This is only considering it was a sin by view of some Christians a while back... it compares rather well to the alleged sin of homosexuality.

It keeps the individual focused on healing. It's like praying with heavy metal playing. Again, it just doesn't work. By keeping distractions to a minimum and keeping the individual focused on healing, the therapy is more effective.
What has he done wrong, what is he being healed of, I'm confused here. He's being sent there because he's gay, you don't need to be healed of being gay, theres nothing wrong with it.

Heh, maybe we should get back to the topic...
By the way, would someone bother refuting my claims about lefties? This is only considering it was a sin by view of some Christians a while back... it compares rather well to the alleged sin of homosexuality.It hasn't been immoral to be a lefty since the thirteenth century at least, but it's been frowned upon. As late as the 1950s many people 'learned' to be righties to avoid being yelled at. And in some countries it's still considered bad to write with your left hand.

So fundamentalists still think lefties are immoral. They also think political lefties are immoral. In fact, anything that isn't precisely according to the word-for-word in their bible is immoral.

That place is a joke. They couldn't even spell "promiscuity" right!

Oh, and they apparently know the causes of homosexuality:

"No, you weren't born gay. There are many factors which influence the development of same-sex attractions during childhood. These include the relationship with your parents, relations to other children of the same sex, possible abuse or molestation, etc. God has allowed you to have this particular temptation, but he has also provided you a way out.
I Corinthians 10:13 says, "No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make a way for you to escape, that you may be able to bear it." You may not have chosen your sexual struggle, but you can learn how to choose your sexual activities. "

What has he done wrong, what is he being healed of, I'm confused here. He's being sent there because he's gay, you don't need to be healed of being gay, theres nothing wrong with it.Well, Christians think homosexuality is a mental disorder. Here's what I say to that:

1) If homosexuality is not a mental disorder: Why worry?

2) If homosexuality is a mental disorder: Have you ever heard of a mental disorder cured by isolation? I didn't think so.

Well, Christians think homosexuality is a mental disorder.
Eh, I personally think pseduo-Christians like these are the ones with mental disorders.

2) If homosexuality is a mental disorder: Have you ever heard of a mental disorder cured by isolation? I didn't think so.

I'm pretty sure that makes it worse.

Oh, and if someone has a "mental disorder", isn't introducing them to religion kind of dangerous?

Well, Christians think homosexuality is a mental disorder. Here's what I say to that:

1) If homosexuality is not a mental disorder: Why worry?

2) If homosexuality is a mental disorder: Have you ever heard of a mental disorder cured by isolation? I didn't think so.
I know, it allways reminds me of the simpsons, when Homer thinks bart is gay.

Eh, I personally think pseduo-Christians like these are the ones with mental disorders.They're certainly not Christians at any rate. That is stretching the definition of the word.

I know, it allways reminds me of the simpsons, when Homer thinks bart is gay.

We work hard, we play hard. ;)

I'm pretty sure that makes it worse.

Oh, and if someone has a "mental disorder", isn't introducing them to religion kind of dangerous?Most religious fanatics tend to be insane. :)

If this camp exists and has rules as such, and also meets with the approval of certain members of this board, one has to wonder one particular possibility.

Will they then approve of a camp which forcibly kidnaps people and subjects them to similar treatment in order to indoctrinate them into the Christian faith?

There seems to be a loophole this guy could exploit: if you continuously break rules you're dismissed from the camp. I'd take a shit in the middle of the hallway, give a couple of camp leaders a golden shower or too, masturbate until it hurts, spit in the holy water at church, call everyone "god-fucking cheese mongrels" and much more until they were forced to evict me.

Then I'd kick the shit out of my parents for being arseholes.

There seems to be a loophole this guy could exploit: if you continuously break rules you're dismissed from the camp. I'd take a shit in the middle of the hallway, give a couple of camp leaders a golden shower or too, masturbate until it hurts, spit in the holy water at church, call everyone "god-fucking cheese mongrels" and much more until they were forced to evict me.

Then I'd kick the shit out of my parents for being arseholes.

:D

I'd also walk around naked with a continuous erection.

There seems to be a loophole this guy could exploit: if you continuously break rules you're dismissed from the camp. I'd take a shit in the middle of the hallway, give a couple of camp leaders a golden shower or too, masturbate until it hurts, spit in the holy water at church, call everyone "god-fucking cheese mongrels" and much more until they were forced to evict me.

Then I'd kick the shit out of my parents for being arseholes.That sounds a lot like the person addicted to NS trying to break his addiction: by sending all the mods spam telegrams, posting whole pages full of links to porn sites, creating puppets imitating the mods etc., until he got IP banned. I think it's called 'suicide-by-Mod'.

:D

I'd also walk around naked with a continuous erection.I'd download porn pictures from online and post them all over the hallways. That way everyone would probably become sexually aroused and get evicted. :D Foolproof plan. I'd just have to find some way of concealing a computer and printer in my room.

That sounds a lot like the person addicted to NS trying to break his addiction: by sending all the mods spam telegrams, posting whole pages full of links to porn sites, creating puppets imitating the mods etc., until he got IP banned. I think it's called 'suicide-by-Mod'.
Eh?

Yeah, that probably is the easiest way out. First thing he does should be to slug the nearest counselor.

Nope. Read it again. I'm wondering why Bush is off crusading against fundie rights deprivers in other countries (Taliban) while this happens in the US.

Annnnnyway. There's another reason I'm so firmly against this. You shouldn't be able to force anyone to go anywhere unless what they are doing could cause potential harm under US law. I'm not against reasonable forced movement: moving someone into an asylum because they could harm themselves or others. But forcing someone into a camp this restrictive because they're gay? The fact that they're gay isn't going to harm anyone. As someone who is still legally a child, I say that that is totally absurd. Your parents should not be allowed to force you to go somewhere like this without telling you what will happen there and your consent. The fact that the rules clearly instruct the parents not to tell the kid what will happen there shows that this is clearly not right.

Sorry, that wasn't clear to me for some reason...

My guess would be because these camps aren't going to turn you into someone that's going to blow up brothels in Nevada. At least, one hopes!

That's already decided: children are in their parents care unless they are proven to be negligent. The fact is, until you turn 18, you're not a fully fledged citizen and therefore (so long as you're not put in danger), your folks can raise you in any manner they please. That's their right.

<snip>

All because he's willing to admit he's gay! The site classifies homosexuality as a "broken and addictive behavior" similar to "pornography, drugs and alcohol, and sexual promiscuity."

What. The. Fuck.

1984 seems more and more true every damn day.


This is just sick and wrong. This should be under my sig, because I have posted it in so many threads: Homosexuality is 90% biological! (Yes, there are brain studies that show a difference in male homosexuals as opposed to male straight men.) No one wakes up one day and says "Gee, I think I'll be gay!" any more than I woke up one day and said "Gee, I'll be straight!" UGH!

How can people twist their thinking like that? I'm sick of the morality police in the bedroom. DAMMIT! You can't get rid of an inborn trait by these odd tactics. This is so frustrating! AIIIGHHHHH!!! An addiction? Oh please. The people who come up with these theories ought to be put away. :mad: :rolleyes: :( :headbang:

That sounds a lot like the person addicted to NS trying to break his addiction: by sending all the mods spam telegrams, posting whole pages full of links to porn sites, creating puppets imitating the mods etc., until he got IP banned. I think it's called 'suicide-by-Mod'.


Like "Suicide by Cop"? ;)

This is just sick and wrong. This should be under my sig, because I have posted it in so many threads: Homosexuality is 90% biological! (Yes, there are brain studies that show a difference in male homosexuals as opposed to male straight men.) No one wakes up one day and says "Gee, I think I'll be gay!" any more than I woke up one day and said "Gee, I'll be straight!" UGH!

How can people twist their thinking like that? I'm sick of the morality police in the bedroom. DAMMIT! You can't get rid of an inborn trait by these odd tactics. This is so frustrating! AIIIGHHHHH!!! An addiction? Oh please. The people who come up with these theories ought to be put away. :mad: :rolleyes: :( :headbang:

There are no such things as gay men or straight women. :D

Like "Suicide by Cop"? ;)
Pretty much, yeah. Someone just did that somewhere around here.

There are no such things as gay men or straight women. :D


All beings are bi? Is that what you mean???? :fluffle:

All beings are bi? Is that what you mean???? :fluffle:

Men like women.
Women like women, but are complex critters, so like men instead. ;)

So, he's being restricted from promiscuity and communication/media. Your point? EVERYONE was restricted from the communication we have today prior to its invention (which was not so long ago) and I don't think 99.9% of humanity has gone insane.

You don't? The proof is all around you.

I am disgusted by the evil religion is capable of.

Silly things like religion, which have a feasible explanation for the origin of the universe and life, unlike cosmology and biology ;)

Both at their heart have the exact same explanation, everything came from absolutly nothing.

"The single greatest cause of Atheism in the world today, is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world, simply finds unbelievable."

Sometimes we're our own worst enemy. Is at least that agreed?

I'd quite like to see more information on this "90% of homosexuality is genetic" study, and I'd like to hear in nice simple terms, how exactly a gay gene is passed on.

"The single greatest cause of Atheism in the world today, is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world, simply finds unbelievable."

Sometimes we're our own worst enemy. Is at least that agreed?

I'd quite like to see more information on this "90% of homosexuality is genetic" study, and I'd like to hear in nice simple terms, how exactly a gay gene is passed on.
Does it really matter if it's genetic or not? I'm happy how I am, and obviously so was this guy, enough to come out to (what appear to be) fundamentalist parents. If you're happy with how you are, and it doesn't harm anyone else what the hell does it have to do with anyone else?

It's only right by your standards. Therefore YOUR point is moot ;)

All points are moot, what is your point?

It is an abomination before God.

It may be an abomination before *your* god, but last time I checked no one has the right to force their religious beliefs on anyone else (not in the US anyway). Or have they managed to change things so that religious freedom is gone while I wasn't looking?

You are free to believe as you see fit and I am free to believe as I see fit and as long as it isn't harming anyone no one has the right to tell either of us otherwise. That's the way it works; sorry you don't like it.

As for the kid; I hope that he comes through this without any permanent emotional damage. What that camp is trying to accomplish with kids like this one is nothing more than a complete subsumation of his identity. Teachings like this are how we end up with Bigots in the government who turn out to have same sex lovers. They loathe themselves because they were taught what they were doing was 'an abomination'; so they absolutely hate anyone who lives that life openly and without shame. But I'm digressing a bit... :mad:

I'd like to hear in nice simple terms, how exactly a gay gene is passed on.

The same way harmful genetic diseases and various recessive traits (blonde hair, blue eyes) are. It's passed via carriers, who have the gene but don't exhibit it's effects, but can still pass it to their offspring.

I'd like to hear in nice simple terms, how exactly a gay gene is passed on.

It's not necessarily a gene, there is the possibility that it has to do with the mother's hormone levels at a particular point in the pregnancy. I don't know where to find that study, does anyone else?

Besides; genetic or not it should make no difference. If it's a choice then it comes under free will. I remember enough doctrine to know that free will was given by god all the way back in Adam and Eve's time. It is not anyone's place but His to judge, remember that? If the church I was raised in had just stuck to that I would still be there. Christ told us to love one another; his father told us not to judge... How is that in any way ambiguous?

I'd like to hear in nice simple terms, how exactly a gay gene is passed on.

Firstly, it's very, very unlikley that there is a single "gay gene" that causes homosexuality, although it is likley that genetic factors play a role. But I am going to answer anyway because I'll take any chance to rebut the "gays don't breed, so it can't be genetic!" argument, because I'm so sick of it. People with cystic fibrosis don't tend to breed either (they're probably less likley to have kids than gays) yet the cystic fibrosis gene is passsed on by carriers.

Lets say there's a hypothetical "gay gene". We'll denote the "normal" (straight) allele (version of the gene) "S", and the "gay" allele s. Now lets say the gay allele (s) is recessive, so when the straight allele (S) is present, it overrides the gay allele and the individual is heterosexual. Say two parents, each with the genotype Ss have kids together. What are the possible allele combinations for the children?

SS (straight)
Ss (straight, but carry gay allele)
sS (straight, but carry gay allele)
ss (gay)

As we can see, one of the four possible combinations results in a gay kid.

This is a hypothetical, oversimplified explaination, but it is useful for explaining how genetic factors which can lead to homosexuality are not necessarily "bred out" by natural selection. Add into this that different genes affect males and females different ways, and you may get a situation where a gene might increase fertility in females, but predispose males to homosexuality. It is not bred out because it is of benefit to some individuals who carry that gene.

I'm probably willing to bet that it does have something to do with a beneficial female gene sneaking into the male organism. Then again, I'd probably be wrong.

Three (well, two if I'm generous ;)) seperate possibilities (Ó.o) none of which I'm particularly qualified to argue.

If you're happy with how you are, and it doesn't harm anyone else what the hell does it have to do with anyone else?You are free to believe as you see fit and I am free to believe as I see fit and as long as it isn't harming anyone no one has the right to tell either of us otherwise. That's the way it works; sorry you don't like it.Both miss the point. The fairly-commonly-held Christian perspective on homosexuality is that it is harmful to you, yourself. This is not entirely my viewpoint. My viewpoint is [of course] based on The Bible, which I've scoured to find all the suitable passages about homosexuality.

All the ones I can find, I take to be referring to gay sex, and I think that's it's rather a large leap to say that being gay is an abomination, and that children with such wayward leanings need to be sent to a boot camp (let's not discuss the techniques again, it's not going to get anywhere) to get the immorality kicked out of them.

Simple terms: Being gay, fine. Having gay sex, not fine. Why? You don't need to ask me that.

Christ gave us three nice, simple rules to abide by: Love the Lord our God with all our Heart, Soul, Mind and Strength (which where the lots of other specific rules comes in. But not the ones that were aimed at the tribe of Israel while they were establishing themselves, they're (such as the food laws, lots of them involving stonings) not really relevant anymore), to Love our neighbour as ourselves, and to go out to the world and make believers of all men. And women. And any in between.

The problems arise when people jeopardise the last one through being hypocrites and missing out the first two. We should be loving the sinner for the beautiful human being they are, and hating the sin, not hating the sinner as well. As is the case with all groups, a small minority present the group's image to the rest. That small minority might be paedophilic priests, it may be abortion-clinic activists, it may be suicide bombers, in all the cases it's completely unrepresentative of the views of almost everyone else.

The thing that keeps annoying me about the Christian opposition to gays is that all their opposition is based on the OT, which they also have a tendency to claim "doesn't apply" because Jesus made a new pact. But if it doesn't apply, then they can't object to gays. Besides, most of the objections come from:
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Leviticus 20:13

The problem is, Leviticus also condemns touching insects, pigs, and dead animals, making oaths, eating animals that don't chew cud and have split hooves, touching people with open wounds, eating anything that still has blood on it, mating 2 different types of animal, planting fields with 2 different seeds, wearing clothes made of 2 threads, cutting sideburns, and tatoos.

I'm probably willing to bet that it does have something to do with a beneficial female gene sneaking into the male organism. Then again, I'd probably be wrong.
Yeah, you would. At least, based on everything we know about human genetics and human sexuality, you are wrong in that theory. Especially because your theory completely neglects the fact that there are FEMALE homosexuals; if homosexuality is caused by "female genes sneaking into the male organism," how exactly would that explain lesbians? Your theory is nothing more or less than a perpetuation of societally-invented gender roles...gay men must be effeminate, gay women must be "butch," and straight people must conform to their traditional roles.

I wish humans could just come to terms that we, like our closest primate relatives, are naturally bisexual. That's what our biology directs. Our ideas of black-or-white sexuality are our own creation. There's no "gay" gene or "straight" gene, because we are all biologically bisexual.

Of course, we are also biologically designed for promiscuity...that doesn't mean we must or should follow our biology without reserve. But we should stop trying to find a biological excuse for our invented sexual roles.

Both miss the point. The fairly-commonly-held Christian perspective on homosexuality is that it is harmful to you, yourself.
So? If it's harmful to me what does it have to do with you?

christian fundamentalists really piss me off. I think they should be re-educated.

So? If it's harmful to me what does it have to do with you?
Well, by being gay you're hurting yourself (even though you don't know it), the Christians know what is best for you, and they're just so durn generous that they are willing to spend their time and money helping to fix your troubled gay soul. See, even though they've never met you, know nothing about you as a person, and are not qualified to assess your mental or physiological wellbeing in any objective manner, they know that you will be better off with a heterosexual relationship than with a homosexual one.

You believe that you should pick a partner based on love, on trust, on companionship, on attraction, on passion, and on the natural bonds that form between two people who are compatible as life-mates. They need to show you the error of your ways, and help you to realize that love is about inserting a penis into a vagina until sperm comes out, so that babies can be made and reared to worship Jesus. Only by accepting that real love is defined by what private parts we have, by how fertile we are, and by how well we all conform to traditional gender roles, only then will you be able to heal and be the good and healthy person you are meant to be.

They're doing it for your own good. They're doing it to save humanity. They're doing it because they are so loving and caring that they want to spread their message of penis-in-vagina throughout the world. Can I get an A-men!?!

*snip*
No point in getting all annoyed at me: You've totally misinterpreted my statement. Genes alone don't make you "butch" or "effeminate," upbringing contributes too. And my ommission of lesbians was accidental, probably because I'm male.
What I was trying to say was that maybe the gene cluster or such that makes males attracted to females somehow got switched with it's opposite counterpart, or vice versa, through XXY males or some other mechanism. I'm not a geneticist, so I'm probably way off base, but that's just my theory. The one that all humans are bisexual typically seems a little far-fetched to me, but then again, I'm probably wrong.

Well, by being gay you're hurting yourself… *snip* This would be the "heterosexual agenda" as opposed to the "homosexual/gay agenda"?

Well, by being gay you're hurting yourself ... <snip> ... Can I get an A-men!?!

That lot'd better be sarcasm....

For the other people here, who believe that gay is wrong because men and women are designed to have intercourse with each other in order to procreate... I am actually physically incapable of intercourse, and I can't have children. Does that mean it's ok for me to be gay? :p

Even though I really see nothing wrong with the camp (it's a bit strict by my standards, but they're not being harmed in any way), I don't agree with the parents' decisioning. Their kid is gay. So what. Love their kid anyway. God might not be in favor with his actions, but God is forgiving. If I had a child that was gay, even though I didn't agree with their decision to live that lifestyle, I would love them anyways. Love the sinner, hate the sin.

The thing that keeps annoying me about the Christian opposition to gays is that all their opposition is based on the OT, which they also have a tendency to claim "doesn't apply" because Jesus made a new pact. But if it doesn't apply, then they can't object to gays. Besides, most of the objections come from:
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Leviticus 20:13

The problem is, Leviticus also condemns touching insects, pigs, and dead animals, making oaths, eating animals that don't chew cud and have split hooves, touching people with open wounds, eating anything that still has blood on it, mating 2 different types of animal, planting fields with 2 different seeds, wearing clothes made of 2 threads, cutting sideburns, and tatoos.




1 Corinthians 6:7-11 (NKJV) 7Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

I wish humans could just come to terms that we, like our closest primate relatives, are naturally bisexual. That's what our biology directs. Our ideas of black-or-white sexuality are our own creation. There's no "gay" gene or "straight" gene, because we are all biologically bisexual.


We are? Strange, I don't find myself attracted to other girls....but I guess you know my attractions better :rolleyes:

christian fundamentalists really piss me off. I think they should be re-educated.


Then perhaps you should move to a pseudo-communist country ;)

We are? Strange, I don't find myself attracted to other girls....but I guess you know my attractions better :rolleyes:
I said INNATELY. Read more carefully, and quit arguing with straw men. If you don't understand what I said then you can ask me to clarify, but kindly don't try to argue against points I never made.

This would be the "heterosexual agenda" as opposed to the "homosexual/gay agenda"?
Lol, in that context, yeah. Just as it would be silly to claim homosexuals have a joint agenda, it is also silly to claim that all heterosexuals are interested in "fixing" gay people. Only a small subset of really crazy homophobes are wasting their time with that sort of crap...most heterosexuals don't give a damn if gay people want to be gay.

That lot'd better be sarcasm....

Never fear, it was dripping with satire.

We are? Strange, I don't find myself attracted to other girls....but I guess you know my attractions better :rolleyes:

??!?? :confused: ??!!??

You're a female?

??!?? ??!!??

You're a female?


Yes lol :D

I said INNATELY. Read more carefully, and quit arguing with straw men. If you don't understand what I said then you can ask me to clarify, but kindly don't try to argue against points I never made.

I wish humans could just come to terms that we, like our closest primate relatives, are naturally bisexual. That's what our biology directs. Our ideas of black-or-white sexuality are our own creation. There's no "gay" gene or "straight" gene, because we are all biologically bisexual.


If all of us were biologically bisexual, then wouldn't it be a logical inference to say that I'm biologically bisexual? And, as I cannot remember having any bisexual fantasies or desires, wouldn't that refute the statement that we all are?

Yes lol :D

Damn me and my internet prejudices... :p

By the way you posted, I just always thought you were a guy. Sorry 'bout that.

Damn me and my internet prejudices...

By the way you posted, I just always thought you were a guy. Sorry 'bout that.


S'ok lol

Really, there is nothing wrong with being gay. By saying that I have opened up the floodgates to be abused by religious people who don't agree. Honestly, I have nothing against Christ. I like Christ. I don't like Christians though, they aren't very much like Christ. I can't remember the part in the Bible where Jesus cuts off a young boy's communication to the outside world and tells him he's wrong for being gay. I remember compassion for a prostitute somewhere in there though.

christian fundamentalists really piss me off. I think they should be re-educated.

Oooo! I love your point of view! You don't like the way they think, so they need to be changed! That's a great viewpoint... for a fundamentalist such as yourself. :rolleyes:

If all of us were biologically bisexual, then wouldn't it be a logical inference to say that I'm biologically bisexual? And, as I cannot remember having any bisexual fantasies or desires, wouldn't that refute the statement that we all are?
Nope. My point was that our genetics, our biology, doesn't make us exclusively heterosexual or homosexual. However, there are many other factors that are not carried within our innate physiology or genes, factors which can cause an individual to be exclusively heterosexual or homosexual in practice. This does not mean all human sexuality is a conscious choice, it simply means that our sexuality isn't coded in our genes or in our generalized biology.

Nope. My point was that our genetics, our biology, doesn't make us exclusively heterosexual or homosexual. However, there are many other factors that are not carried within our innate physiology or genes, factors which can cause an individual to be exclusively heterosexual or homosexual in practice. This does not mean all human sexuality is a conscious choice, it simply means that our sexuality isn't coded in our genes or in our generalized biology.


Ok, I'll let someone experienced in genetics respond to that for me hehe.

1 Corinthians 6:7-11 (NKJV) 7Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Annnnnd that passage's translation is in doubt. Some scholars say it's "Effeminate" rather than "homosexual," seeing as they didn't have a word for it back when this was written! "Effeminate" in the orginal greek of that had nothing to do with homosexuality.

Effeminate appears only in the KJV (to my knowledge that is) which itself is not the most credible of translations. Apparently, the issue was resolved by the time the NKJV, NAS, and NIV were written as all refer to homosexuals. Also, homosexuality would be covered under fornication, as any premarital/extramarital sex is fornication. It would require homosexuals to marry, and the bible makes many references to heterosexual marriages but none to homosexual marriages, which does not seem to speak approvingly of the homosexual relationship. Also, even though Leviticus is no longer applicable under the new laws of Christ, it clearly spoke against homosexuality which can be an indication of what God's intentions are in the new law. Also, Romans 1 is IMO an irrefutable statement about homosexuality:




Romans 1:18-32 18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

...Can I get an A-men!?!

A-men!

I have no trouble with Christianity in itself - Jesus showed some great ideas. I just don't like it when people try to force their beliefs on others, whether it's a government or someone's parents. I feel that's an abuse of responsibility. It's perfectly acceptable to offer someone the choice of being a Christian and if they want to then they'll accept. The whole idea of faith is that you believe in something willingly, not through fear. God doesn't work that way anymore.

Christians are in that atheist camp. It's called the world. The Bible points out that we are "in the world, but not of it" because we have no worldly master. It also points out, quite accurately, that Christians always have been and always will be persecuted out of fear and hate. We've been in this camp for thousands of years, and all the Christians at this camp are trying to do is help out a lost and confused soul. You can see just how lost and confused he is by reading the whole site. He does need help, and not medical help. His problem is spiritual. And you can sit there and say "homosexuality is genetic" and "homosexuality is not a choice," but then you cannot explain the countless homosexuals who successfully abandoned their orientation through the help of Christians, like Dr. Dobson. It is a spiritual issue at stake here.

Oh puleez!
The world is not an atheist camp just because we won't allow one religion's views of morality to be forced on everyone in the country. If you want to live in a theocracy, perhaps Iran would work. Or at least Vatican City. Pro-choicers don't say everybody has to have an abortion. Atheists don't say you may not go to church. PFLAG doesn't say you have to be gay.

We don't force you to give up your beliefs. Just because we don't neccesarily refrain from calling your ideas dumbass and we refuse to let you make us all live by your rules seems to make some of you whine you being repressed and oppressed.

Help! They're denying us our right to oppress people!

Simple terms: Being gay, fine. Having gay sex, not fine. Why? You don't need to ask me that.

Actualy if you are going to make a declaritive statement like that with no facts listed to back it then yes, yes I do. Why is having gay sex not fine?

Christ gave us three nice, simple rules to abide by: Love the Lord our God with all our Heart, Soul, Mind and Strength (which where the lots of other specific rules comes in. But not the ones that were aimed at the tribe of Israel while they were establishing themselves, they're (such as the food laws, lots of them involving stonings) not really relevant anymore), to Love our neighbour as ourselves, and to go out to the world and make believers of all men. And women. And any in between.


And for those of us who do not abide by your rules because we do not worship your god? Why do some Christians (perhaps not yourself but some) feel the need to pass laws to force us to follow the rules of YOUR faith. The exapmle most germain to this thread being the banning of gay mariage, after all no one is planning to force two men or two women to marry nor do they plan to force any preist, minister, rabi, immam, high priestess, discordian pope, etc. to perform a mariage cerimony that their faith prohibits them from recognising.

Effeminate appears only in the KJV (to my knowledge that is) which itself is not the most credible of translations. Apparently, the issue was resolved by the time the NKJV, NAS, and NIV were written as all refer to homosexuals. Also, homosexuality would be covered under fornication, as any premarital/extramarital sex is fornication. It would require homosexuals to marry, and the bible makes many references to heterosexual marriages but none to homosexual marriages, which does not seem to speak approvingly of the homosexual relationship.

The bible makes no references to traveling by plane or car but many to riding animals and walking. The bible makes no references to eating a snickers bar but many to eating fish. Is the bible disapproving of cars, planes, and snickers bars?

Ok, I'll let someone experienced in genetics respond to that for me hehe.
That would be me. I've taken courses in human genetics at both the undergraduate and graduate level, and worked in a genetics lab for a semester this fall.

The bible makes no references to traveling by plane or car but many to riding animals and walking. The bible makes no references to eating a snickers bar but many to eating fish. Is the bible disapproving of cars, planes, and snickers bars?

Where did you get that from?

That was no where near her point :rolleyes:

Oh puleez!
The world is not an atheist camp just because we won't allow one religion's views of morality to be forced on everyone in the country. If you want to live in a theocracy, perhaps Iran would work. Or at least Vatican City. Pro-choicers don't say everybody has to have an abortion. Atheists don't say you may not go to church. PFLAG doesn't say you have to be gay.

We don't force you to give up your beliefs. Just because we don't neccesarily refrain from calling your ideas dumbass and we refuse to let you make us all live by your rules seems to make some of you whine you being repressed and oppressed.

Help! They're denying us our right to oppress people!

That's not the point. We're not trying to opress people, we just want to publicly profess our beliefs and we can't do that with groups like the ACLU bitching every chance they get. The world IS very secular. I don't feel like anyone is opressing Christians, I just feel as though there is a lot of resentment from secular influences.

Where did you get that from?

That was no where near her point :rolleyes:


I was demonstraiting that the fact the bible does not mention something is not proof that it condems it.

I was demonstraiting that the fact the bible does not mention something is not proof that it condems it.

But it does reference homosexuality, so what's your point?

But it does reference homosexuality, so what's your point?

That A: there is debate as to if those passages are translated correctly. and B: If your argument is that the probelm with homosexual sex is that homosexuals can not marry, and furthermore you reason that they can not marry because there is no reference to homosexual marriage in the bible and that this lack of reference means that it was condemed then the bible must also condem cars, planes, and snickers bars.

It is clear that a very few verses in the Bible do reference homosexuality, and do condemn it. What is not clear, is if the Bible references refer to loving, committed, monogamous same-sex relationships, or homosexuality in the context of things like pagan worship rituals, prostitution, and pedestary.

Silly things like religion, which have a feasible explanation for the origin of the universe and life, unlike cosmology and biology ;)

You REALLY believe in creationism? Biology isn't feasible?

ACK!!! :eek:
So, so scary.
I'm in the GSA at my highschool, so I thought that I'd heard all about everything that gay people have to deal with.... Not so, apparently.
OMG. There is nothing more to say. I think that I've been traumatized just by learning about this. That there are parents out there who would do this sort of thing to their kids is incomprehensible to me. Knowing that there are kids out there suffering this sort of abuse right now turns my stomach.
I'm praying for this man, as well as all the other homosexuals being subjected to this sort of treatment who I do not know about.
Blessed be

First, Homosexuality has been proven to have some biological features, such as some part of the brain (pardon me for not having a good memory for me to rember what part of it it was) being larger than that of the regular male brain, and more like the female brain(this study is of course a study of gay men, and not of all homosexuals, I do not know of any studies on lesbian brains sorry.) However nothing in that study proved that it was a genetic cause. And I personally dont know of any study that does, if anyone does please tell me i would be very intrested in knowing. I mentioned this because of the guy that said that homosexuality is 90% biological, this may be true I dont know, but its not the same as 90% genetical. Biological is not the same as genetical. Many biological feature occur through external forces(such as the wrinckling in our brain, how tall we get, what we like and dislike) yet are only results of 2 things playing out, our natural biological tendencies and the enviroment our genes are alowed to play in. This is comething far beyond simple nature or nurture, its nature and nurture, dont just try to pin it on one cause.
As to the theroy of us all being bi, I have heard and read(a very limited amount) about it. I dont quite understand how this is evoulitionary sound, if we where all bi whjy would such a large precentage of people become straight in later years. Also by saying that we may be bi as we begin our life it does not mean its our choice to be gay or not.

You REALLY believe in creationism? Biology isn't feasible?

Why do you think that the two are mutually exclusive?

I'm Catholic, and firmly believe that Evolution is God's way of sending patching updates...

"Hmm...the lions are catching too many zebras. Better send down speed update A09 in the next generation..."

As to the theroy of us all being bi, I have heard and read(a very limited amount) about it. I dont quite understand how this is evoulitionary sound, if we where all bi whjy would such a large precentage of people become straight in later years.

I'm not sure I understand your question. Could you clarify?


Also by saying that we may be bi as we begin our life it does not mean its our choice to be gay or not.
Exactly. My only point is that current evidence suggests that innate human biology doesn't direct us to be exclusively gay or straight. This doesn't mean that all people will be bisexual in practice, and it certainly doesn't mean that sexuality is 100% choice.

It's like language, for instance; human beings are not genetically or biologically predisposed to learn one particular language when they begin their life. Adopted babies prove this time and time again, as we are all "blank canvass" at the beginning of life. However, an adult human will not have the same fluidity when it comes to learning new languages. Our native language or languages will be determined by our environment, but that doesn't mean we "choose" to be a native English speaker, or that we "choose" to not be as fluent in (for instance) Chinese. By accident of birth, by environment, by forces out of our control, a certain aspect of our life has been shaped.

This is not necessarily a bad thing, nor is it necessarily something we should be trying to fight, but we should admit that it is not coded in our genes. Humans are not programmed at conception to speak English, or be gay, or like Snickers more than Baby Ruth. These preferences and tendencies are important parts of the people we will become, but they are not written in our cells at birth.

Then perhaps you should move to a pseudo-communist country ;)

yeh go live in your middle american apple pie christian dreamworld

anyone who believes in creationism when evolution patently shows that its bullshit is a dumbass.

I'm Catholic, and firmly believe that Evolution is God's way of sending patching updates...
I like that definition :)

Why do you think that the two are mutually exclusive?

I'm Catholic, and firmly believe that Evolution is God's way of sending patching updates...

"Hmm...the lions are catching too many zebras. Better send down speed update A09 in the next generation..."

And since the humans are using haxxors, they're getting nerfed in the next update hmm? =p

And since the humans are using haxxors, they're getting nerfed in the next update hmm? =p

I admit that the patching is not always evenly applied... ;)

anyone who believes in creationism when evolution patently shows that its bullshit is a dumbass.

Wow, you *are* an open minded one, aren't you?

Please tell me what evolution has to do with creation?
Evolution states that lifeforms change to adapt to their changing surroundings.

Creationism states that life came into being by the will/hand of God.

The two are not mutually exclusive... Unless you can tell me what formed existance?
And, before you just say "The Big Bang", where did *that* come from? An external event? (Logically no, since there is nothing in existance yet). The will of a diety? (Mmmm... COULD be!)

Science and Religion are in essence the same: both seek answers to the nature of the Universe, and how it came into being.

Wow, you *are* an open minded one, aren't you?

Please tell me what evolution has to do with creation?
Evolution states that lifeforms change to adapt to their changing surroundings.

Creationism states that life came into being by the will/hand of God.

The two are not mutually exclusive... Unless you can tell me what formed existance?
And, before you just say "The Big Bang", where did *that* come from? An external event? (Logically no, since there is nothing in existance yet). The will of a diety? (Mmmm... COULD be!)

Science and Religion are in essence the same: both seek answers to the nature of the Universe, and how it came into being.

no I mean people who say the earth is 6000 years old and that we're not descended from monkeys, but adam and eve.

I dont know how the universe came into existence but for me the existence of a deity creating it isnt important when your looking for causes, because it can be misleading, I dont think one should make any assumptions about reality since it doesnt always conform to our expectations of logic.

One theory states that the universe is a manifold. It contains all the beginning points of particles so it cant have a beginning itself as it is made up of them. Outside the universe is n-space which is another manifold in which matter and time cannot exist. The universe has always been here in a temporal sense.

and that we're not descended from monkeys No one says that.

No one says that.

hmmm, surveys show otherwise.

hmmm, surveys show otherwise. Sorry, I was unclear. No reputable scientist, nor anyone who knows about basic evolutionary theory has ever said that we are descended from monkeys.

people can go to the extreme, i agree, but this has its place.
sports bras are hot, and distract the guys that are trying to kick the habit.
nudity=same deal.
in other words, these rules are not to make you miserable, they are in place so others will not be tempted by your hot body.

just a thought; women are only thought of with sex in mind because that's all that they advertize.

oooooohhhh...
creation vs evolution debate

Sorry, I was unclear. No reputable scientist, nor anyone who knows about basic evolutionary theory has ever said that we are descended from monkeys.


YUH!

It is the only truth. There is no evidence for the spiritual, therefore it.. well, it's impossible to show it doesn't exists, so let's just say it's totally irrelevant.

This is from miles back but. You need scientific proof for a spiritual being? Now try denying sight and getting auditory proof of the colour red. Same problem.

This is from miles back but. You need scientific proof for a spiritual being? Now try denying sight and getting auditory proof of the colour red. Same problem.
We have many instruments that can confirm existence of the waves within the "red" wavelength, and these instruments could easily be configured to give audio readout instead of visual. Indeed, I've used an electrophysiological rig that measures a retinal cell's response to light stimulations, and the rig produces "chirps" to indicate the detected cell response. So we not only can prove that the red wavelength exists via auditory cues, but we also can establish that an eye registers and experiences the color red.

Next?

That's not the point. We're not trying to opress people, we just want to publicly profess our beliefs and we can't do that with groups like the ACLU bitching every chance they get. The world IS very secular. I don't feel like anyone is opressing Christians, I just feel as though there is a lot of resentment from secular influences.

It's not resentment from secular influences; it's resentment from the people of other religions who happen to believe differenlty than you. You want the ten commandments in our courthouses? Fine, but you must then respect that every other religion represented in this country would have just as much right to have their 'laws' on the wall as you do. I personally think that would be rather enlightening; but it's so far from the realm of practical that I can't advocate it.

Believe as you wish; teach your children your religion if you choose; but don't you dare try to make your (not yours specifically, I'm speaking more of the religious right in general) particular brand of religious law into the law of the land. As an example: You think that a zygote is life and therefore sacred? Don't have an abortion. Bring me proof of that (and scripture is not proof) and I'll join you in working to ban abortion. Until then kindly respect the right of the rest of us to have our own beliefs.

You yourself may not be trying to oppress people, but the neo-cons in our government most certainly are trying to impose their morals on the rest of us. And that is unfortunetly giving all Christians a bad name.

I'm going to repeat my question for all those fundamentalists in capital letters so you'll actually listen.

WHAT MAKES YOU THINK YOU CAN CURE HOMOSEXUALITY, WHICH YOU BELIEVE TO BE A MENTAL DISORDER, BY COMPLETE ISOLATION???!!!

Mental disorders are worsened by isolation. I nearly went crazy after being left alone for a couple thousand years. Solitary confinement is one of the worst punishments in prisons for real crimes. The mentally ill are rehabilitated, not imprisoned.

Why, therefore, is homosexuality treated as a crime? If the bible said baseball was an abomination under God, would you throw baseball players into solitary confinement as well? Or music: would you burn all the music in the world, and imprison all the musicians? Think about it for a moment! *Citation: Coggy's sig

But homosexually most likly is a mental disorder, like a neurosis not a psycosis. It has no positive evoulutionary value what-so-ever and changes the normal function of man(refering to mankind). These are things that qould qulify it as a mental disorder, then again ADHD has been proven to have a lot of evoulutionary value and yet its still considered a neurosis. But I still agree that isolation is not a good thing, but they are using brain washing tactics not healing tactics so I think your argument on healing is wrong, they dont want to heal anything they want you to conform how you act they dont care about who you really are.