NationStates Jolt Archive

That's a question I have asked for most of my life, I never got a satisfactory answer so far.

I was raised Christian (Catholic, to be precise), but I have been encouraged to think critically all my life, both from my parents and from school (Catholic school run by a convent). I was taught to respect other religions and to respect people without religion, to answer them with my own opinion about god if asked and only if asked, but never to pretend what I believe in would be the absolute truth, never to judge them in any way, never to feel superior to them in any way or to pity them.

I've been reading all those threads about Christianity those past few days and I saw some posts that more than shocked me. There were "Christians" telling agnostigs smuggly that they felt pity for them because they would certainly go to hell, there were "Christians" who angryly had a go at others telling them that they can't recognise the truth because their hearts are closed to it, there were "Christians" all over the place trying aggressively to convince everybody who was not of their opinion that they had to repent their sins, there were even "Christians" judging other Christians for their lifestyle and trying to exclude them because they were gay.
I also realised that a fair number of atheists were abusing Christianity and all other faiths, but then no atheist ever claimed to follow Jesus and love all of mankind. It doesn't make this kind of behaviour any better, it just makes them less hyporict.

So, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Wiccans, church of Lemon Meringue....
I'm not asking if god exists or not. Let's start this considering he/she/it does or they do. But what makes you so sure that your path is the right one, that you feel you are in a position to converse others?

Double thread... oops. Sorry. Please delete the other one...

Theres people like that in every religion, theyre more active on NAtionStates because there are lots of aggressive atheists/agnostics/whateverists that make topics like "ZOMG! JEZUS IZ FAKE!".

Im glad Im not one of them, in most cases :P

I don't know what path I follow, to outsider's it looks like I'm athiest...and I might be. But I'm not certain that that's the only path or that I'm right.

As a Holy Roman Catholic with many Evangelical and Penticostal friends, I've noticed this seems (again, only from what I've seen) that this is more a Protestant trend than a Catholic one. Most of the Romans (read: Catholic) I know are far more open minded than the Protestants I know.

This may just be the kind of people they are. But one thing is for sure, I would rather keep an open mind in case my path IS wrong. Imagine if God doesn't excist, I could be wasting my time. Imagine if he does, but in the form of Allayah alone, then I could be going to some kind of hell.

Just Rotovia's two cents folks.

I know my religion is the truth because of faith. That’s it. I know in my heart that there is one loving creator God who loves the Earth so much that, even though we constantly fail him, he came to Earth as Jesus Christ and died upon the cross so that those who accept him might be forgiven for their sins and have eternal life in heaven.

Oh, and by the way, I detect from your post Cabra West that you feel telling a nonbeliever that they are going to hell, is somehow wrong. The fact is, Jesus himself did this. You don’t have to be insulting about it, but it certainly isn’t wrong to say what Christ himself said. The key is to be civil. Remember, the only people that you could say he offended were the hypocritical religious elites. I do agree with you, though, that Christians who tell other Christians that they are going to Hell because of their life style is certainly wrong. The fact is that we all sin.

As a Holy Roman Catholic with many Evangelical and Penticostal friends, I've noticed this seems (again, only from what I've seen) that this is more a Protestant trend than a Catholic one. Most of the Romans (read: Catholic) I know are far more open minded than the Protestants I know.

This may just be the kind of people they are. But one thing is for sure, I would rather keep an open mind in case my path IS wrong. Imagine if God doesn't excist, I could be wasting my time. Imagine if he does, but in the form of Allayah alone, then I could be going to some kind of hell.

Just Rotovia's two cents folks.


More or less exactly my opinion, apart from that "waisting time" bit. I don't feel like wasting my time by being Catholic. I go to church ow and then because it helps me clear my head. I wouldn't run there every sunday though, and to confession every friday, that would be wasting my time.

I just happen to think that if god exists, he wouldn't care what name you call him, he would be above that.
He wouldn't care when our how you worship him, I think he would actually be quite amused by people who try to prove that he doesn't exist. I know I would be.
I do think, however, that he would be very annoyed with people who claim to know who's saved and who isn't, by people who try to use his name as an instrument of power over others, who excuse bad manners that way, etc.
I know I would.

Oh, and by the way, I detect from your post Cabra West that you feel telling a nonbeliever that they are going to hell, is somehow wrong. The fact is, Jesus himself did this. You don’t have to be insulting about it, but it certainly isn’t wrong to say what Christ himself said.

But the point is that many flavours of Christianity disagree with your view. Many even do not believe hell exists at all... So how can you be certain that your flavour is more right than theirs ? Faith you say - but their faith is just as strong..

I know my religion is the truth because of faith. That’s it. I know in my heart the there is one loving creator God who loves the Earth so much that, even though we constantly fail him, he came to Earth as Jesus Christ and died upon the cross so that those who accept him might be forgiven for their sins and have eternal life in heaven.

As you said very well there, you BELIEVE it. There's no way of telling if it's the truth you believe in.
I'm not saying it's wrong, either. But I feel it's wrong to claim something to be universal because of purely subjective feelings.
On the exact same basis, every single religion on this planet is just as true as Christianity. Because people BELIEVE it.


Oh, and by the way, I detect from your post Cabra West that you feel telling a nonbeliever. that they are going to hell, is somehow wrong. The fact is, Jesus himself did this. You don’t have to be insulting about it, but it certainly isn’t wrong to say what Christ himself said. The key is to be civil. Remember, the only people that you could say he offended were the hypocritical religious elites. I do agree with you, though, that Christians who tell other Christians that they are going to Hell because of their life style is certainly wrong. The fact is that we all sin.

Jesus said he is the son of god. Would you say the same thing about yourself?

There is no civil way of telling people that in your opinion, they're in for hell for eternity. And just for not agreeing with what you believe to be truth?

I seriously object that. And, if I remember correctly, Jesus says at one point "Don't judge others"

Oh, and by the way, I detect from your post Cabra West that you feel telling a nonbeliever that they are going to hell, is somehow wrong. The fact is, Jesus himself did this. You don’t have to be insulting about it, but it certainly isn’t wrong to say what Christ himself said. The key is to be civil.
It's just about impossible not to be insulting when you tell someone they're wrong because they think differently, especially when there's no empyrical proof for your belief. No amount of civility will change that.
I have a personal problem with this because I have a difficulty with people I know to be the friendliest I've met doing something I consider inherently evil.

Please don't take any offence from my following comments. I do not target anyone directly.

Blind faith is a foolish way to live. If a man ordered you to run into a battle you'd surely die in, would you blindly follow him? Nope, you'd question his motives first. Sure god may exist, but why did he make the world in such a strange way? Why did he make sex pleasurable, yet make it a sin to enjoy? Why did he invent pain, knowing there would be suffering? Why make Earth at all, instead send everyone to heaven? Why create all these minable toxic chemicals? How do you explain creationism, when it has been proven that the Earth is 4 Billion years old, and once populated with dinosaurs? How can people justify killing for their religion? Why create a sun that will explode in 4 Billion years? If there is such a huge galaxy out there, how can man think he's the only one going to heaven, if there is one?

There are so many damned questions, and so few answers. And don't give me that "God moves in mysterious ways" crap. That cannot justify these answers. If god does exist, he must be a lunatic!

Thus I choose the path of the Agnostic. Let time decide my fate.

That's a question I have asked for most of my life, I never got a satisfactory answer so far.

I was raised Christian (Catholic, to be precise), but I have been encouraged to think critically all my life, both from my parents and from school (Catholic school run by a convent). I was taught to respect other religions and to respect people without religion, to answer them with my own opinion about god if asked and only if asked, but never to pretend what I believe in would be the absolute truth, never to judge them in any way, never to feel superior to them in any way or to pity them.

I've been reading all those threads about Christianity those past few days and I saw some posts that more than shocked me. There were "Christians" telling agnostigs smuggly that they felt pity for them because they would certainly go to hell, there were "Christians" who angryly had a go at others telling them that they can't recognise the truth because their hearts are closed to it, there were "Christians" all over the place trying aggressively to convince everybody who was not of their opinion that they had to repent their sins, there were even "Christians" judging other Christians for their lifestyle and trying to exclude them because they were gay.
I also realised that a fair number of atheists were abusing Christianity and all other faiths, but then no atheist ever claimed to follow Jesus and love all of mankind. It doesn't make this kind of behaviour any better, it just makes them less hyporict.

So, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Wiccans, church of Lemon Meringue....
I'm not asking if god exists or not. Let's start this considering he/she/it does or they do. But what makes you so sure that your path is the right one, that you feel you are in a position to converse others?

I'm an Atheist. I don't beieve that my [lack of] religion is the only truthful one. I'm trying to find the religion with the most truth in it, I'm only Atheist until I find that there is more truth in one than any other. I happen to be Atheist right now because it sounds the most reasonable. You get born, you live, you find your own purpose, you die. In the middle you should try to find out why things are the way they are without resorting to supernatural explainations. Still don't know why the universe started or how life came to be, but I have faith that physics will one day be able to explain in rational terms why everything happens. It doesn't provide comfort when somebody has passed away or when things are going bad for you, but It does provide support during those times if you think about how you can get through it without any spiritual guidance when so many other people can't.

Please don't take any offence from my following comments. I do not target anyone directly.

Blind faith is a foolish way to live. If a man ordered you to run into a battle you'd surely die in, would you blindly follow him? Nope, you'd question his motives first. Sure god may exist, but why did he make the world in such a strange way? Why did he make sex pleasurable, yet make it a sin to enjoy? Why did he invent pain, knowing there would be suffering? Why make Earth at all, instead send everyone to heaven? Why create all these minable toxic chemicals? How do you explain creationism, when it has been proven that the Earth is 4 Billion years old, and once populated with dinosaurs? How can people justify killing for their religion? Why create a sun that will explode in 4 Billion years? If there is such a huge galaxy out there, how can man think he's the only one going to heaven, if there is one?

There are so many damned questions, and so few answers. And don't give me that "God moves in mysterious ways" crap. That cannot justify these answers. If god does exist, he must be a lunatic!

Thus I choose the path of the Agnostic. Let time decide my fate.

I don't think that it's a sin to enjoy sex. In fact I'm sure it's not. God didn't invent pain, we brought it upon ourselves by not doing his will. I still don't know why he put us on earth. He does seem to be going right out of his way a bit.

I don't think that it's a sin to enjoy sex. In fact I'm sure it's not. God didn't invent pain, we brought it upon ourselves by not doing his will. I still don't know why he put us on earth. He does seem to be going right out of his way a bit.

Well, as the ten commandments don't say anything about sex being a sin, and neither does Jesus, I don't believe it's sin. It's nature.
I don't think god invented pain either. Pain has the purpose of warning the body, you hold your hand over fire, it hurts, you draw it away before further damage can be done. Without pain, your hand would get burned. Pain is good.

There is a genetical disorder which causes some people not to feel any pain. You know how children bite their nails? Well, these people chew of half of their fingers. No pain, no stopping.

As for god's reasons... who knows? In my opinion, god has the weirdest sense of humour ever and just enjoys a good show, that's about it.

Oh, and by the way, I detect from your post Cabra West that you feel telling a nonbeliever that they are going to hell, is somehow wrong. The fact is, Jesus himself did this. You don’t have to be insulting about it, but it certainly isn’t wrong to say what Christ himself said. The key is to be civil. Remember, the only people that you could say he offended were the hypocritical religious elites. I do agree with you, though, that Christians who tell other Christians that they are going to Hell because of their life style is certainly wrong. The fact is that we all sin.

It is wrong. What Jesus said has to be interpreted correctly. You can't take what he says literally. He did speek in Parables after all.

I don't think that it's a sin to enjoy sex. In fact I'm sure it's not. God didn't invent pain, we brought it upon ourselves by not doing his will. I still don't know why he put us on earth. He does seem to be going right out of his way a bit.
That almost sounds like the North Korean approach. Everything bad is their fault and everything good comes from our leader. I think the approach that if life weren't challenging, it wouldn't be a challenge is far more reasonable.

I seriously object that. And, if I remember correctly, Jesus says at one point "Don't judge others"

A common misconception. Allow me to correct you with Matthew 7:1-5:


"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull the mote out of thine eye; and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother's eye."

This only condemns hypocritical judgments. So He tells us not to not judge others on thing that we are also not guilty of. His message if for us to get rid of our own sin, so that we may properly judge others.

A common misconception. Allow me to correct you with Matthew 7:1-5:


"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull the mote out of thine eye; and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother's eye."

This only condemns hypocritical judgments. So He tells us not to not judge others on thing that we are also not guilty of. His message if for us to get rid of our own sin, so that we may properly judge others.


I read that differently. He condems all judgement, because we cannot conceive just how sinful exactly others are, due to the beam in our own eyes.
We can neither understand their motives nor see into their hearts, we don't know how they think and feel. And for that reason, we cannot judge them. We are just humans, and judgement is reserved to god.

So, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Wiccans, church of Lemon Meringue....
I'm not asking if god exists or not. Let's start this considering he/she/it does or they do. But what makes you so sure that your path is the right one, that you feel you are in a position to converse others?

I am an Atheist myself. However I can never be certain that my path is the right one. I follow it, as I cannot truly believe that there is someone out there watching over your and every other creatures life, and will ultimately be the judge on the choices that you have made throughout your life.

However I will never say that my belief… or lack of belief as the case may be. Is right for anyone else. It is mealy how I think and what I believe. I do try to be open-minded and listen to those with a different opinion, and honestly do not bother with trying to change someone’s faith. After all who am I to say that you can or cannot believe in something/someone?

["If god doesn't like the way I live, let him/she/it tell me, not you." ~ unknown]

I am an Atheist myself. However I can never be certain that my path is the right one. I follow it, as I cannot truly believe that there is someone out there watching over your and every other creatures life, and will ultimately be the judge on the choices that you have made throughout your life.

However I will never say that my belief… or lack of belief as the case may be. Is right for anyone else. It is mealy how I think and what I believe. I do try to be open-minded and listen to those with a different opinion, and honestly do not bother with trying to change someone’s faith. After all who am I to say that you can or cannot believe in something/someone?

["If god doesn't like the way I live, let him/she/it tell me, not you." ~ unknown]

Exactly right. I see that you're new. Nice to have another Australian Atheist. :fluffle:

Well, as the ten commandments don't say anything about sex being a sin, and neither does Jesus, I don't believe it's sin. It's nature.

Are you kidding? Jesus set the highest standards of sexual immorality possible. Some food for though from the good book NIV version this time (easier to understand) :

Matthew 5:28 (Jesus is speaking) “But I tell you that anyone who looks at a women lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

How can we honestly say that Jesus had no problem with sex when He condemns even thinking about it?

As for god's reasons... who knows? In my opinion, god has the weirdest sense of humour ever and just enjoys a good show, that's about it.

God created us so that we may love and worship Him. This is why He gave us free will, so that we may choose Him.

Are you kidding? Jesus set the highest standards of sexual immorality possible. Some food for though from the good book NIV version this time (easier to understand) :

Matthew 5:28 (Jesus is speaking) “But I tell you that anyone who looks at a women lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

How can we honestly say that Jesus had no problem with sex when He condemns even thinking about it?



God created us so that we may love and worship Him. This is why He gave us free will, so that we may choose Him.

Keyword is 'adultery'. If you are married and lust for another woman or if you lust for a married woman then you have committed adultery in your heart. Perfectly reasonable. It doesn't men that you can't enjoy sex with your wife.

I know my religion is the truth because of faith. That’s it.

Sorry, but that is a dangerous way of thinking.

Believing means to think something is true when it cannot/has not been proven as truth, but putting faith in it means to act on it. Extremists who kill and torture others, who believe they have a divine right to act in the name of something that could very easily be a lie - I'm sorry, but that is wrong.

Look at Africa - they torture and kill children who they believe are witches - are you telling me that's right? But of course, I forgot - your religion is the right one, yes? So your beliefs must be right *end sarcasm*. Remember Gallileo? Oh, how the church persecuted him - because the church was clearly right in the matter. Then he proved them wrong, to the point that they could not deny that the earth revolves around the sun. They believed they were right and were thus justified in persecuting him - but they weren't, were they? Because the beliefs they thought were right turned out to be wrong.

I've no doubt your motives are good. I'm sure you are a nice person and I hope you do not condone such violent acts. But for every tolerant person there is a zealot who believes it is right to, for example, crash a plane into a building and cause widespread terror and death. Holding beliefs is one thing, but when they are the root of suffering, you need to step back and question what value they really have.

I am an agonostic. I believe there is good in all religions that can be applied to our society to better us as a civilised species. But that means not clinging to outdated practises - do you believe witch burning is still acceptable? I doubt it, and it shows how even deeply held religious values will change over time. Keep your beliefs by all means, but keep an open mind, because ultimately it will allow you to adapt your views to better both yourself and the world around you.

Are you kidding? Jesus set the highest standards of sexual immorality possible. Some food for though from the good book NIV version this time (easier to understand) :

Matthew 5:28 (Jesus is speaking) “But I tell you that anyone who looks at a women lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

How can we honestly say that Jesus had no problem with sex when He condemns even thinking about it?



God created us so that we may love and worship Him. This is why He gave us free will, so that we may choose Him.

Why did he have to put us on earth though? We have free will in the after life. We could still choose to love him there. We could also choose to reject him just like Satan did.

I read that differently. He condems all judgement, because we cannot conceive just how sinful exactly others are, due to the beam in our own eyes.

Then why does He instruct us to cast the beam out of our own eye? It is because He is giving us instruction on how to better be a servant to Him. He condemns Hypocrisy, which is saying something is wrong that you, yourself do. Of course, though, the final Judgment belongs to God in Heaven.

Are you kidding? Jesus set the highest standards of sexual immorality possible. Some food for though from the good book NIV version this time (easier to understand) :

Matthew 5:28 (Jesus is speaking) “But I tell you that anyone who looks at a women lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

How can we honestly say that Jesus had no problem with sex when He condemns even thinking about it?



adultery

• noun voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not their spouse. (Oxford English Dictionary (http://www.askoxford.com/) )

I'm not married, nor talking about having sex with somebody you are not married to. I'm talking about sex without being married or else sex with your spouse.


God created us so that we may love and worship Him. This is why He gave us free will, so that we may choose Him.

Again, that's your belief. Not mine.

Remember Gallileo? Oh, how the church persecuted him - because the church was clearly right in the matter. Then he proved them wrong, to the point that they could not deny that the earth revolves around the sun. They believed they were right and were thus justified in persecuting him - but they weren't, were they? Because the beliefs they thought were right turned out to be wrong.


Remember that the church was corrupt which sparked the reformation.

Then why does He instruct us to cast the beam out of our own eye? It is because He is giving us instruction on how to better be a servant to Him. He condemns Hypocrisy, which is saying something is wrong that you, yourself do. Of course, though, the final Judgment belongs to God in Heaven.

Of course he tells us to strive to become better people and to improve ourselves whenever we can. That's one of his most basic ideas.
But, according to Christian doctrine, it's impossible to do. You cannot be without sin. So, as you can't get rid of that beam, leave others alone about their's unless they ask you for help.
And then help them and don't tell them they're condemned.

Remember that the church was corrupt which sparked the reformation.

If I remember correctly, it wasn't an exclusively Catholic thing to burn witches. It happend in England (after it was reformed), and it happened in the USA. Salem springs to mind, there wasn't a Catholic soul in the entire town, for all I know.

If I remember correctly, it wasn't an exclusively Catholic thing to burn witches. It happend in England (after it was reformed), and it happened in the USA. Salem springs to mind, there wasn't a Catholic soul in the entire town, for all I know.

What does that have to do with anything? I was just saying that he can't use the church persecuting Galileo as part of his argument because they were corrupt and wouldn't do such a thing today.

What does that have to do with anything? I was just saying that he can't use the church persecuting Galileo as part of his argument because they were corrupt and wouldn't do such a thing today.

Sorry, my mistake. I though you were refering to the witches[part in that same post there...

However, I wouldn't put it beyond the church to excommunicate people they don't agree with even today. The difference is, the church doesn't have nearly that influence on politics and society as it had back then. I know of a few people who have been excommunicated, but honestly, nobody really cares.

It doesn't men that you can't enjoy sex with your wife.

Of course it doesn’t. The Bible calls sexual relations between two people married to each other to be a gift from God.

adultery

• noun voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not their spouse. (Oxford English Dictionary )

I'm not married, nor talking about having sex with somebody you are not married to. I'm talking about sex without being married or else sex with your spouse.


1 Thessalonians 4:3 “It is God’s wish that you should be sanctioned: avoid sexual immorality.”

What does that have to do with anything? I was just saying that he can't use the church persecuting Galileo as part of his argument because they were corrupt and wouldn't do such a thing today.

What are you talking about? Sure they dont kill people anymore, but they certainly havent stopped trying to beat down most of the scientific theories that dont agree with the church(just like Galileos didn't). Thats the same thing, minus the violence. Now they (the church) belive the earth is not the center of the universe, but what claims that they make NOW will they take back in the next 200 years!

I read that differently.

Voila! The problem with Christianity.

Voila! The problem with Christianity.

lololololol! so true... so true...

but more like the problem with existence...

Of course it doesn’t. The Bible calls sexual relations between two people married to each other to be a gift from God.

So, no sin in sex there so far...


1 Thessalonians 4:3 “It is God’s wish that you should be sanctioned: avoid sexual immorality.”

Ah, but what is "Immorality"?
To quote my dear dictionary again, "immoral =not conforming to accepted standards of morality". Those accepted standarts change over time.

And, I regret to inform you, it is my belief that the bible cannot be taken literally at any time. It has basic teachings, which I follow, but I will decide my actions in any given situation not by what a book tells me but what my knowledge, heart, consciense and common sense tell me.
I believe in human rights just as much as I believe in the bible, I believe in compassion and altruism even more than I believe in Christianity.
If, by your belief, that means going to hell, then I guess I will.
I will never try to persuade others in what I believe to be true, but I will never act against my belief, either.

Voila! The problem with Christianity.

Makes it kind of hard to argue with all of them at once, if they all have different beliefs, right? ;)

Well, that's life.

There you have why I could never believe in a religion. It doesn't really work as I haven't been brought up with it, I mean there are so many to choose from! Which one would I pick? :)

Quoting from the Bible is also dangerous I'd say, I mean isn't it meant to be the word of God, yet people have changed it and translated it over the years.
To quote Bill Hicks "I think what God meant to say..."

And, I regret to inform you, it is my belief that the bible cannot be taken literally at any time. It has basic teachings, which I follow, but I will decide my actions in any given situation not by what a book tells me but what my knowledge, heart, consciense and common sense tell me.
I believe in human rights just as much as I believe in the bible, I believe in compassion and altruism even more than I believe in Christianity.
If, by your belief, that means going to hell, then I guess I will.
I will never try to persuade others in what I believe to be true, but I will never act against my belief, either.

Hmm, I define a Christian as someone who believes in their heart of hearts that Jesus died for our sins and was resurrected three days later. Does that describe you?

Hmm, I define a Christian as someone who believes in their heart of hearts that Jesus died for our sins and was resurrected three days later. Does that describe you?

No. I believe that Jesus was an elightened human, a prophet, who brought humanity a message of compassion and love for one another, who preached fairness and equality, who gave hope and inspired great deeds. But human is all he was, no more or less than me and you.

So you just believe me to be whatever it is you believe me to be ;)

Well you're going to hell obviously Cabra :p

Well, there are several reasons I consider my religion (Roman Catholicism) to be the true one - HOWEVER, I do not damn all members of other religions. I mean, Christians of all shapes and sizes, Muslims, Jews, Sikhs… we all serve the same master, have the same prophets even.
There are several reasons I believe Jesus to be God, one being the resurrection - which somehow was so momentous it persuaded his apostles, who were previously in darkest despair, to suddenly change their tune and go out. But I do try to keep an open mind - something that does not come easily to humans…

Well you're going to hell obviously Cabra :p

You know, I think I'll be in good company there ... ;)

What are you talking about? Sure they dont kill people anymore, but they certainly havent stopped trying to beat down most of the scientific theories that dont agree with the church(just like Galileos didn't). Would you care to provide an example? I know I can't.

No. I believe that Jesus was an elightened human, a prophet, who brought humanity a message of compassion and love for one another, who preached fairness and equality, who gave hope and inspired great deeds. But human is all he was, no more or less than me and you.

So you just believe me to be whatever it is you believe me to be

Perhaps the fact that you already view Him favorably will lead you to the truth. :) I can only pray that it will, because I certainly won’t be changing your mind. ;)

No. I believe that Jesus was an elightened human, a prophet, who brought humanity a message of compassion and love for one another, who preached fairness and equality, who gave hope and inspired great deeds. But human is all he was, no more or less than me and you.

So you just believe me to be whatever it is you believe me to be ;) Ah, the Islamic view.

Perhaps the fact that you already view Him favorably will lead you to the truth. :) I can only pray that it will, because I certainly won’t be changing your mind. ;)

Has it ever occured to you that there just may not be one single, ultimate truth that is exactly the same for everybody? :)
I believe in shades, not simply black and white. And I believe I found my truth, it's just different from everybody else's. Just like your truth is different from everybody else's.

Would you care to provide an example? I know I can't.

Just read a story recently about how they are trying to bump up Creationism in schools to oppose Evolution.

Ah, the Islamic view.

Yes, I found out a few years ago that Islam came to the same conclusion as I did. That doesn't make me a Muslim, though ;)
Although I think that maybe Mohammed was a prophet as well, and he brought with him some interesting new ideas. Although none of them are as appealing to me as Jesus' approach, so I think Christian I'll stay for the moment.

Just read a story recently about how they are trying to bump up Creationism in schools to oppose Evolution.

What church is behind that one, actually?
The Catholic church has accepeted evolution ages ago, so for once, it can't be their fault.

Yes, I found out a few years ago that Islam came to the same conclusion as I did. That doesn't make me a Muslim, though ;)
Although I think that maybe Mohammed was a prophet as well, and he brought with him some interesting new ideas. Although none of them are as appealing to me as Jesus' approach, so I think Christian I'll stay for the moment.

Would you really be a christian if you didnt beleive Jesus was the son of god? I thought that was the core beleif of every sect of christianity. With that beleif it sounds like you have your own religion.

Would you care to provide an example? I know I can't.

Omfg noob. Evolution Vs. Intelligent Design!

(If the Chatholic church really has "accepted" evolution I would like to see some documentation, other than taking your word for it.)

Has it ever occured to you that there just may not be one single, ultimate truth that is exactly the same for everybody?
I believe in shades, not simply black and white. And I believe I found my truth, it's just different from everybody else's. Just like your truth is different from everybody else's.

Well, I believe they are definite Blacks and Whites, though there is some gray. Also, don’t you think it is kind of egotistical to claim that you are the only one who thinks the way you do?

Would you really be a christian if you didnt beleive Jesus was the son of god? I thought that was the core beleif of every sect of christianity. With that beleif it sounds like you have your own religion.

My thoughts exactly. :D

Omfg noob. Evolution Vs. Intelligent Design! Catholic Church accepts evolution, doesn't try to stamp out evolution.

Go find facts.

Catholic Church accepts evolution, doesn't try to stamp out evolution.

Go find facts.

Another example of how the church has changed its views simply because of changes in society.They certainly didnt accept it when the bible first became Gods word. Are you saying that the untimate truth of God changed once Darwin theorized evolution? If God used evolution why didnt he say anything about it in the bible...

and FYI I wasnt really meaning to target the Chatholic church, it was just the religion at hand. (although I do admit to be lacking the recources to find out the concenus of every single person part of the church, and their many varying views regarding evolution...)

Would you really be a christian if you didnt beleive Jesus was the son of god? I thought that was the core beleif of every sect of christianity. With that beleif it sounds like you have your own religion.

His religion sounds suspiciously like Ba'hai.

I've probably said this before, but you do have to espouse the Nicean creed to really follow with the Biblical interpretation of Christianity... this includes the basic belief that Jesus is the Son of God (not just another prophet.) Otherwise, there is no point in calling yourself a Christian, since Christos is Greek for Messiah: "One who follows the Messiah."

Ok, to all those people preaching evolution in here, I have something to say to.

Carbon-Dating: Not reliable

All their "evidence": Carbon Dating

Therefore, All their "evidence": unreliable

Pretty simple math to me...

Christ died for everyone, if you don't belive that, well, I'm sorry for you. Unless you change your attitude in the future, you are going to hell. That's not judging. It's stating a fact.

Scientists have actally found more proof for intelligent design than for evolutionism. I don't have any of those facts on me, but I hav ea friend who studied up on it, and... there's around a 1 to 10^(I think a few thousand) chance of random development of just the planet, let alone human life. I'll continue this post in a bit, I have to go somewhere, but I have more to say.

Unless you change your attitude in the future, you are going to hell. That's not judging. It's stating a fact.

Prove it.

Ok, to all those people preaching evolution in here, I have something to say to.

Carbon-Dating: Not reliable

All their "evidence": Carbon Dating

Therefore, All their "evidence": unreliable

Pretty simple math to me...


All your "Evidence": 2000 year old Book of (for all we know) Fiction.

Somebody stop me if im crazy, but doesn't a system of dating based off of known decay rates seem a little bit more reliable than a book (of which there is no surviving original copy) that was not even written by anybody that can be proved to exist besides through the bible itself....

Carbon dating is reliable, give or take a few thousand/million years. That wasn't sarcastic - it's not like scientists care if Austropilithicus turned up in June or July.

Catholicism bowing before changes in society? Well, that's one I haven't heard before - normally it's "stuck in the past"!

I can't remember of one instance where us atheists have subjugated another culture to force our "non belief" on them.

Anyone whether christian, catholic, muslim, jew who follows their belief without question is dangerous.

one more point ...since bible quoters often used said text to enforce their opinion...... answer me this

adam and eve had two sons cain and abel....then what? is christianity based on incest because i can't see who the two lads could screw apart from ther own mother...unless they waited for a sister to come along of course

I'm not religious, but I don't think that precludes me explaining why I think religion is false. And hence why my non-belief in religion is valid.

The basis of my argument is that:

I do not believe in any religions as they are not the creations of god but are the creations of man. They are not about the worship of god but about the worship of man. God may exist, he may not but in my opinion, religion is probably as far away from the word of god as you can get.

So how do I get to this kind of idea?

Well if we consider each religion, and it's teachings, what does it tell us about it's god. Is that image portrayed really of god, or is it just the image of man?

Let us consider a god which created us in his image.
If god was perfect, and we were created in his image, then we would be perfect no?

Now what if Man created god in his image? In this case we would find god would not be perfect and would display many of the faults of human beings.

Now lets imagine this god is all powerful he can create a whole solar system a world, and all the animals and things on it. Clearly this guy is all powerful. Now why would such a god then have problems controlling his creatures? He is all powerful he can create perfect animals that act exactly as he wants, a god would not have to send us rules and punish us.
Or maybe he doesn't care, why would a god have such emotions about his creations, emotions are a human things, he could just create us because he is god and it's what he does, but he wouldn't try to control us, because he isn't some megalomaniac control freak, if he was, he's god and he'd do it right.

Now lets imagine instead this is a god created by man, and man wants to use this god to control, now this is the kind of god that sends down commandments for us to follow, it isn't a god at all, it has no power other than that of it's creators. It uses ourselves to spread the world, to police the rules, to do it's bidding, because it is us.

But if we pretend that god does exist and he did start these religions.
Is what we have now really a reflection of god?

My answer is no, there has been thousands of years for these religions to change, to interpret gods words, again we are not following a religion of god, but a religion of man, we are not worshipping a god we are worshipping man.

So either religions have no link to god, or religions have been so altered by man they reflect none of gods will when he created them. Either way, neither is doing gods will.

If there is any meaning to blasphemy against a god or gods, then religion is the ultimate form of it.

Ahem [dons protective overalls.]

I can't remember of one instance where us atheists have subjugated another culture to force our "non belief" on them.


Soviet Union?

Scientists have actally found more proof for intelligent design than for evolutionism. I don't have any of those facts on me, but I hav ea friend who studied up on it, and... there's around a 1 to 10^(I think a few thousand) chance of random development of just the planet, let alone human life. I'll continue this post in a bit, I have to go somewhere, but I have more to say.


So, basically your saying that planets rarely occurr? I think somebody forgot to pay attention in science class because last time I checked there are several TRILLION BILLION STARS all of which can have an unknown amount of planets near them. Oh yeah, those planets occur sooooooooooo rarely... and yes there is a very small chance that humans would have evolved. ALSO: I dont think your claimed odds of 1 to 10^(several thousand) would be a problem when you take in to account the TRILLIONS OF BILLIONS of possible planets out there. Your just the lucky lifeform that got to evolve far enough to realize it. Fun huh?

Catholicism bowing before changes in society? Well, that's one I haven't heard before - normally it's "stuck in the past"!

Well its a...slow process. But it conforms...

His religion sounds suspiciously like Ba'hai.

I've probably said this before, but you do have to espouse the Nicean creed to really follow with the Biblical interpretation of Christianity... this includes the basic belief that Jesus is the Son of God (not just another prophet.) Otherwise, there is no point in calling yourself a Christian, since Christos is Greek for Messiah: "One who follows the Messiah."

Christos actually simply means "anointed one" (Greek translation (http://www.kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon) )

I call myself Christian as I chose that spiritual way. Being a follower doesn't mean accepting every word for the one and only truth. The apostles learned from Jesus by asking questions and guaging the answers. That's more or less what I try to do.

but does anyone ever wonder if the universe was jsut created for the entertainment of "god". like a reality tv show or like some kind of video game (Age of Empires style). in which case, what exactly would we be? simulations? bacteria on a slide? its probably best not to think about these kinds of things, as i'm already paranoid enough...

Soviet Union?

Not quite... they substituted religious belief with belief in Communist doctrine. It was treated almost like religion, but without the spiritual side to it.

yeah, ive always wondered about that....

but does anyone ever wonder if the universe was jsut created for the entertainment of "god". like a reality tv show or like some kind of video game (Age of Empires style). in which case, what exactly would we be? simulations? bacteria on a slide? its probably best not to think about these kinds of things, as i'm already paranoid enough...

lol, thanks for not being so hardcore serious as I and many others around here.

Well, I believe they are definite Blacks and Whites, though there is some gray. Also, don’t you think it is kind of egotistical to claim that you are the only one who thinks the way you do?


No, it isn't. Everybody is absolutely unique in the way they think. And believe it or not, everybody is absolutely unique in the way they believe, as well.

I can't remember of one instance where us atheists have subjugated another culture to force our "non belief" on them.

Anyone whether christian, catholic, muslim, jew who follows their belief without question is dangerous.

one more point ...since bible quoters often used said text to enforce their opinion...... answer me this

adam and eve had two sons cain and abel....then what? is christianity based on incest because i can't see who the two lads could screw apart from ther own mother...unless they waited for a sister to come along of course

1. Atheists have subjugated the entire American and European culture on the premise that somehow saying something that the atheists don't agree with is discrimination... in the process committing reverse discrimination against all religious faiths.

2. (As a Christian) If we read our Bibles and compare the passages to external references, postmodernists like you really have no basis to accuse us of "blind" faith.

3. Adam & Eve in fact had at least 38 daughters & sons, according to the estimated population at the time of the Flood. Adam and Eve's genetic line started out perfect before the Fall of Man. The only reason that inbreeding is prohibited now is because the degradation of the genetic quality has reached a point where the interbreeding of familial lines is likely to cause undesired traits to come out.

Not quite... they substituted religious belief with belief in Communist doctrine. It was treated almost like religion, but without the spiritual side to it.
Almost...It wasn't a religion and that's the main point. My granma used to smuggle bibles to Soviet Union :D

Ok, to all those people preaching evolution in here, I have something to say to.

Carbon-Dating: Not reliable

All their "evidence": Carbon Dating

Therefore, All their "evidence": unreliable

Pretty simple math to me...

Christ died for everyone, if you don't belive that, well, I'm sorry for you. Unless you change your attitude in the future, you are going to hell. That's not judging. It's stating a fact.

Scientists have actally found more proof for intelligent design than for evolutionism. I don't have any of those facts on me, but I hav ea friend who studied up on it, and... there's around a 1 to 10^(I think a few thousand) chance of random development of just the planet, let alone human life. I'll continue this post in a bit, I have to go somewhere, but I have more to say.


First of all, the Evolution vs. Creationsim threads are next door, thank you.

Second, why is it truth?
I can't prove you wrong, as this is what you believe. But you can't prove this truth in any way. So, please, for politeness sake, stop calling it a fact until you can prove it beyond doubt.

The only reason that inbreeding is prohibited now is because the degradation of the genetic quality has reached a point where the interbreeding of familial lines is likely to cause undesired traits to come out.

Inbreeding has been taboo for a very long time (with very few cultural exceptions). You think thousands of years ago some guy was thinking: "hmmm maybe i shouldnt have sex with my sister becuase the degradation of the genetic quality has reached a point where the interbreeding of familial lines is likely to cause undesired traits to come out."

I think not.

You think thousands of years ago some guy was thinking: "hmmm maybe i shouldnt have sex with my sister becuase the degradation of the genetic quality has reached a point where the interbreeding of familial lines is likely to cause undesired traits to come out."

I think not.

Fact is, you can genetically trace humanity back to exactly 5 original mothers, about 70 000 years ago in Africa. There's more than just one couple that started the human race.
So much for the Adam&Eve parable

Fact is, you can genetically trace humanity back to exactly 5 original mothers, about 70,000 years ago in Africa.

Show me. Link or otherwise. Im not a believer of Adam and Eve (nor do I believe in God), I just think your full of shit. With our current understanding of genetics im pretty sure what you are claiming would take more time than the field of genteics has been around to figure out. (Providing ALL the complete genetic information of each individual leading back to those claimed original 5 mothers is acessable...which its not.)

1. Atheists have subjugated the entire American and European culture on the premise that somehow saying something that the atheists don't agree with is discrimination...

Psh. No. Its not discrimination to dissagree, nor does any intelligent athiest claim it to be. Its just wrong when the system is built to support only one view.(which it is finnaly not, at least not in Amereica). It only becomes discrimination when the goverment (or any group with power over the mass of men) favors one view over another.

Show me. Link or otherwise. Im not a believer of Adam and Eve (nor do I believe in God), I just think your full of shit.

Might take a moment to find that. If you're in England or Ireland, it was on Discovery Channel a few weeks back. So, search yourself or hang on till I find it online..

I can wait.

Show me. Link or otherwise. Im not a believer of Adam and Eve (nor do I believe in God), I just think your full of shit. With our current understanding of genetics im pretty sure what you are claiming would take more time than the field of genteics has been around to figure out. (Providing ALL the complete genetic information of each individual leading back to those claimed original 5 mothers is acessable...which its not.)

Actually, it is true, i was taught it in science just a few weeks ago.
Through analysis of mitocondrial DNA they can determine how long ago all genetic lines converged to the one point. Since mitocondrial DNA is only passed down mother to daughter. Apparantly, we are all descendant from one female a few million years ago in africa. Now i don't want the creationists to jump on this and say, "OMG, this proves Eve existed!", cos it doesn't, and for those who would, let me draw your attention to one important detail. According to the bible, the earth is only 10,000 years old. this "Mitocondrial Eve" was alive millions of years ago.

As for the other atheist who says that they can trace it back to 5 mothers, i'm not sure if im right or not, i can only go on what my science teacher has told me. Really, 5 does sound more plausible.

So, basically your saying that planets rarely occurr? I think somebody forgot to pay attention in science class because last time I checked there are several TRILLION BILLION STARS all of which can have an unknown amount of planets near them. Oh yeah, those planets occur sooooooooooo rarely... and yes there is a very small chance that humans would have evolved. ALSO: I dont think your claimed odds of 1 to 10^(several thousand) would be a problem when you take in to account the TRILLIONS OF BILLIONS of possible planets out there. Your just the lucky lifeform that got to evolve far enough to realize it. Fun huh?


YourMind, I didn't mean a planet, I mean a planet capable of sustaining life. I'm sorry, but that should have been really, really obvious. Actually, many, many of those stars are too hot, too cold, etc to support life. They could be too far away, they could be too close. They could be unstable. Then there's the planet. Theres the tilt, the atmosphere, the gasses in the atmosphere, the land, etc etc etc.

And think about it, you think that every single life form on the planet came from one tiny cell in an ocean? That means many, many mutations, which simply isn't possible.

2000 year old document, true. But scientists have found, again, I do not have any specifics, mroe proof for christianity, than anything else. No other religions have any proof for them. Whatsoever.

Ok, you want proof. I will get you proof... i will find you proof, without the bible being true as a prerequisite, ok?

Ok, the bible has information on things like dinosaurs (job), the water cycle, winds in the atmosphere, the fact that air has weight, the bible even describes cave men (actually remnants from the tower of Babel). So many of these things had not been proven or learned about until the last few hundred years.

You wanted proof? There's my proof. I believe in Christianity, in christ's sacrifice for me based on my faith, but that faith does not go alone. There are many, many facts behind it. That is why I KNOW my faith is the absolute truth. The bible is not a work of fiction, it is a historical document.



You want my source? Well, here's one..
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml

There ya go. Enjoy everybody.

EDIT: Oh and by the way YourMind, carbon dating is not based on "known" decay rates. Those rates have, and will continue to change due to different polutions in the air, and other things that I am unaware of.

Actually, it is true, i was taught it in science just a few weeks ago.

Oh then it must be true...

Anyways, I was just reading an article that was talking about how that theory is infact wrong. Due to the fact that mtDNA in NOT only transmited by the mother.

Here is just a smaple of a very interesting article
(http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2718)

"Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is generally assumed to be inherited exclusively from the mother.... Several recent papers, however, have suggested that elements of mtDNA may sometimes be inherited from the father. This hypothesis is based on evidence that mtDNA may undergo recombination. If this does occur, maternal mtDNA in the egg must cross over with homologous sequences in a different DNA molecule; paternal mtDNA seems the most likely candidate.... If mtDNA can recombine, irrespective of the mechanism, there are important implications for mtDNA evolution and for phylogenetic studies that use mtDNA"


In english this means: "Woops, we forgot to tell you that we didnt take into account that male mtDNA DOES get transferred occasionally. Multiply "occassionally" by 200,000 years and it kinda fucks up our theory.

YourMind, I didn't mean a planet, I mean a planet capable of sustaining life. I'm sorry, but that should have been really, really obvious. Actually, many, many of those stars are too hot, too cold, etc to support life. They could be too far away, they could be too close. They could be unstable. Then there's the planet. Theres the tilt, the atmosphere, the gasses in the atmosphere, the land, etc etc etc.

My point stands: There are a fuckload of planets. The odds are in favor of there being several that can sustain life.

snip.

And i could pull any Evolution Link from the Internet to prove you Wrong

YourMind, I didn't mean a planet, I mean a planet capable of sustaining life. I'm sorry, but that should have been really, really obvious. Actually, many, many of those stars are too hot, too cold, etc to support life. They could be too far away, they could be too close. They could be unstable. Then there's the planet. Theres the tilt, the atmosphere, the gasses in the atmosphere, the land, etc etc etc.

And think about it, you think that every single life form on the planet came from one tiny cell in an ocean? That means many, many mutations, which simply isn't possible.

2000 year old document, true. But scientists have found, again, I do not have any specifics, mroe proof for christianity, than anything else. No other religions have any proof for them. Whatsoever.

Ok, you want proof. I will get you proof... i will find you proof, without the bible being true as a prerequisite, ok?

Ok, the bible has information on things like dinosaurs (job), the water cycle, winds in the atmosphere, the fact that air has weight, the bible even describes cave men (actually remnants from the tower of Babel). So many of these things had not been proven or learned about until the last few hundred years.

You wanted proof? There's my proof. I believe in Christianity, in christ's sacrifice for me based on my faith, but that faith does not go alone. There are many, many facts behind it. That is why I KNOW my faith is the absolute truth. The bible is not a work of fiction, it is a historical document.



You want my source? Well, here's one..
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml

There ya go. Enjoy everybody.

So you're telling us you were an atheist or undecided for a while, then when you were old enough, went and did some research on the various religions out there and the evidence behind each one and then came to an informed decision solely on the basis of that research? Please, you're were a christian before you even looked at that stuff and that beleif has influenced how you see everything. And you claim science supports your religion while simultaneously denying a large part of it exists.

sorry i havent read the entire thread. i know that wiccans do not discriminate against other religions. in fact, in most prayers, spells, etc, they are aimed at certain gods/goddesses in other religions (depending on what path u take). but what i dont get is why that wiccans dont acknowledge the god of the christian faith? i think its because christians claim that their god is the one and only true god. dunno. but basically, be open minded. believe in whatever makes u happy. or rich.

You want my source? Well, here's one..
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml


Lol. That site is a joke, simply becasue they base the whole claim of diosaurs living at the same time as humans on the TRANSLATION of a few words that DO describe some animals alive today. Ohohooh. Too good. You guys should check it out, just for kicks.

<snip>

Job 40:17 "His tail sways like a cedar." is no proof the bible talks about dinosaurs.
The water cycle is obvious even with your bare eyes, if you look closely at nature many things will explain themselves.
As for the rest, I don't know where you get them in the bible so I don't know what they refer to.

And the fact that the writers of the Old Testament were extremely observant of their environment doesn't logically conclude that Jesus rose from the dead. It's a remarkable book and an interesting historical document, but so is the Gilgamesh opus and the Illiad. Both reccount history and historical events, but seen through the eyes of their time.

Your faith may be your truth, as I said, everybody believes differently, but it is not THE truth.

Have you ever heard of the Parable of the three rings?


In the Orient in ancient times there lived a man who possessed a ring of inestimable worth. Its stone was an opal that emitted a hundred colors, but its real value lay in its ability to make its wearer beloved of God and man. The ring passed from father to most favored son for many generations, until finally its owner was a father with three sons, all equally deserving. Unable to decide which of the three sons was most worthy, the father commissioned a master artisan to make two exact copies of the ring, then gave each son a ring, and each son believed that he alone had inherited the original and true ring.

But instead of harmony, the father's plan brought only discord to his heirs. Shortly after the father died, each of the sons claimed to be the sole ruler of the father's house, each basing his claim to authority on the ring given to him by the father. The discord grew even stronger and more hateful when a close examination of the rings failed to disclose any differences.

The dispute among the brothers grew until their case was finally brought before a judge. After hearing the history of the original ring and its miraculous powers, the judge pronounced his conclusion: "The authentic ring," he said, "had the power to make its owner beloved of God and man, but each of your rings has brought only hatred and strife. None of you is loved by others; each loves only himself. Therefore I must conclude that none of you has the original ring. Your father must have lost it, then attempted to hide his loss by having three counterfeit rings made, and these are the rings that cause you so much grief."

The judge continued: "Or it may be that your father, weary of the tyranny of a single ring, made duplicates, which he gave to you. Let each of you demonstrate his belief in the power of his ring by conducting his life in such a manner that he fully merits -- as anciently promised -- the love of God and man.
- Gotthold Ephraim Lessing

Devil Square.... no, If that's what you think, well....

I am not saying I was undecided. People asked for proof? I proved it. I am posting the truth. You not believing what I say is your choice. I feel sorry for you, I really do. Maybe I sound.. haughty, for lack of a better word. Well, I'm sorry, I am showing to you my faith is not just that, faith. It is well supported. The bible couldn't be a work of fiction.

YourMind, well then. Maybe there are a few that can support it. But how would life just develop? Please tell.

Blackadder. Pull your site. Do it. I dare you.

EDIT: Cabra, look at that site. Ok, if you disagree with the dinosaurs part, look at the rest of it. Maybe that site is "a joke", but If you took the time,. finding proof for Christianity is much, much easier than for ANY other religion or belief. Show me I'm wrong.

Devil Square.... no, If that's what you think, well....

I am not saying I was undecided. People asked for proof? I proved it. I am posting the truth. You not believing what I say is your choice. I feel sorry for you, I really do. Maybe I sound.. haughty, for lack of a better word. Well, I'm sorry, I am showing to you my faith is not just that, faith. It is well supported. The bible couldn't be a work of fiction.

YourMind, well then. Maybe there are a few that can support it. But how would life just develop? Please tell.

Blackadder. Pull your site. Do it. I dare you.


http://lsvl.la.asu.edu/evolution/

this is one...although it seems google is run by corrupt chritstians

Corrupt Christians... What have christians ever done to you? Maybe it's because of my earlier statement... CHRISTIANITY IS EASIER, MUCH EASIER, TO PROVE.

And that site doesn't have anything on it.... its a homepage for a newsletter or something..

YourMind, well then. Maybe there are a few that can support it. But how would life just develop? Please tell.


wow you just, like, REALLY failed biology. I cant find a site that con articulate it for me but it goes something like this. There are particles of matter everywhere. Since right after the earth was formed there were alot of elements (mostly gasses) sitting around. Like elements like to do, they combined. One of these combinations was something we know today as an amino acid. Amino acids are the building blocks of even the simplest of organisms. After enough of these amino acids built up in the atmoshpere over who knows how long some of them radomly combined to form a cell that that was something like an aomeba. From there on its explains itself.

EDIT: Cabra, look at that site. Ok, if you disagree with the dinosaurs part, look at the rest of it. Maybe that site is "a joke", but If you took the time,. finding proof for Christianity is much, much easier than for ANY other religion or belief. Show me I'm wrong.

I can't show you that you're wrong and I don't intend to.

That's the point of this entire thread, you believe in a story told in a book that my or may not have happened exactly or approximately this way. You cannot prove the story the book tells with arguments given by the book, you will have to hold the book against other books and facts to see how much of it is true. And there is just as much information out there to prove it's right as there is to prove it's wrong.

And the same goes for virtually ANY other religion, including self-made ones.
Oh, I know Christianity exist. Same as Islam exists, and Judaism, etc. I just doubt that one holds more objective truth than the other.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/introduction/truereligion.html

your not the only nut job pal

CABRA. I JUST SHOWED YOU PROOF.

Being Christian, and defending my belief makes me a nut job?

YourMind, I haven't had biology yet heh. But, I'm pretty sure this "random combination is impossible...

BlackAdder, that's someone quoting some form of Islamic book. It's just a book. Now, Someone's going to say, well, the bible is just a book. The bible was written during (or atleast near) the time period it's talking of, was this book?

Corrupt Christians... What have christians ever done to you? Maybe it's because of my earlier statement... CHRISTIANITY IS EASIER, MUCH EASIER, TO PROVE.

And that site doesn't have anything on it.... its a homepage for a newsletter or something..


:D i Know its a newsletter :D
;) your funny to wind up

Nobody holds objective truth of ANY kind. We are completely and only subjectively able to comprehend. Its technically impossible for anybody to be "objective".

CABRA. I JUST SHOWED YOU PROOF.

YourMind, I haven't had biology yet heh. But, I'm pretty sure this "random combination is impossible...

if god can "just" exist...Then surely Life can "just" exist

I believe my religion ( or lack thereof) is the correct one, becuase its one ive adopted over many years of discovering who I am spiritualy, and making the only choiuce that seemed logical to me.
After trying a few different ones, and reading about the rest, atheism is the only logical answer.

The answer is simple.

Its the least absurd.

To believe that some old man in the sky, who lives in the clouds, sent his *son* to die, wich in some abstract way, absolves us of our sins....is frankly emotionally retarded.

The unwillingness of those who are indoctrinated into this religion, are usually unwilling to truly ponder it, and quie simply, chalk anything up that they cannot understand, or refuse to consider, as "God's Will" is the ulitmate cop-out, and shirks responsibility for its own actions.

You cannot offer love and compassion with one hand, and arrogance and prejudice with the other.

CABRA. I JUST SHOWED YOU PROOF.


You just showed me that Jesus rose from the dead and took all our sins with him? Where?

edit:

I read that page (well, most of it). It just more or less sums up observations on nature, there's no deeper knowledge to it whatsoever....

CABRA. I JUST SHOWED YOU PROOF.

YourMind, I haven't had biology yet heh. But, I'm pretty sure this "random combination is impossible...

AH! Here is a site that explains it pretty simply. Read carefully and you might learn something. Its done with electricity. Which is naturally occuring.
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/chemistry/ex/cm01/iona/origins_amino.html

:D i Know its a newsletter :D
;) your funny to wind up

LOL, your funny.

LOL, your funny.


Who told you this?..... >.> <.< .....

I see this thread as pointless :headbang:

Rigfht ok team! yourmind! your on offense...we got the biblebashers on the ropes!..ok Hut Hut Hut twenty two blue!

Lets stick to the topic at hand. Although I dont think there is a point in arguing with some kid about the origins of life who doesnt even understand basic biology.

I see this thread as pointless :headbang:

well so do...apart from its good entertainment

What's stopping ALL religion's from being true?

Certainly nothing that I can see...

Lets stick to the topic at hand. Although I dont think there is a point in arguing with some kid about the origins of life who doesnt even understand basic biology.

there isnt...inless you want to use more "satanic" evidence to prove him wrong.... *runs off to get KEYSTAGE 2 Biology book*

This is the most fun Ive had in weeks :D . It ranks just under sex. :eek:

I see this thread as pointless :headbang:

Yes, it turned a bit silly there now, didn't it?

In fairness, I was more or less certain that one of the fundies would show up and try to convert us all with irrefutable evidence... I had hoped though to see some people of other faiths. There must be SOME Jews and Muslims out there somewhere, right?

There were more people arguing for creationism and the like, but they seemed to have all dissapeared. How....odd.

Yes, it turned a bit silly there now, didn't it?

In fairness, I was more or less certain that one of the fundies would show up and try to convert us all with irrefutable evidence... I had hoped though to see some people of other faiths. There must be SOME Jews and Muslims out there somewhere, right?

..I can Convert to Zionism if you prefer...oh..i found this little interesting site as well

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/introduction/truereligion.html

proof islam is the real faith... :D

What's stopping ALL religion's from being true?

Certainly nothing that I can see...

That's one of the things I believe in. Basically, they all tell you the same thing, they just use different words.

There were more people arguing for creationism and the like, but they seemed to have all dissapeared. How....odd.


Its because your to good my freind :D

You just showed me that Jesus rose from the dead and took all our sins with him? Where?

I'm not saying I am a bible scholar, or anything of the sort. In some form, they have been destroyed, What, Where, When I do not know. I'm sure someone who is older in the Christian faith, or someone who knows more about the bible, could answer you. I am simply a teenager, who is standing up for what they believe in. I do not have all the answers.

Backwoods. how am I offering arrogance and prejudice?

EDIT: YourMind, you're saying because I'm young my opinion doesn't matter? You're saying because I'm young I can't be right? Who is the one showing prejudice and arrogance here?

You know the absurdists have it down man. "Nothing makes no sense." <- read this like its not bad grammar and it will actually make sense.

..I can Convert to Zionism if you prefer...oh..i found this little interesting site as well

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/introduction/truereligion.html

proof islam is the real faith... :D

I especially like the bit about Abraham being a Muslim. I don't know if her ever knew ... :D

Can you actually convert to Judaism (I wouldn't go so far and call Zionism a religion)? I always thought you had to be born a Jew, they are god's chosen people after all, right?

I always thought you had to be born a Jew, they are god's chosen people after all, right?

If God wanted you to go to heaven he would have made you a Jew, basically.

I think all of you people should stop arguing about religion on the internet. All I hear from one side is "Christians are t3h suck becuase t3h existence of god is ABSUUUUURRRRD!" And all I hear from the other side is "You will roast in the seventh layer of HELL! And don't forget to love thy neighbor!"

Seriously. Stop arguing about it. It takes faith to believe in God, and it takes faith to believe there is NO God. God can neither be proved or disproved! That's why it's called a FAITH in the first place!

So please everyone! I'm sick of all these arguments! They're meaningless!

Can't we please do something ALL religion's preach? Can't we be a little tolerant and understanding of one another?

I especially like the bit about Abraham being a Muslim. I don't know if her ever knew ... :D

Can you actually convert to Judaism (I wouldn't go so far and call Zionism a religion)? I always thought you had to be born a Jew, they are god's chosen people after all, right?


*shrugs*... :( no idea...although the bible points to yes...if you want varried conversations i could be muzlim for the day :D

well so do...apart from its good entertainment

I must admit, it is entertaining. Like watching two rams continuously headbutt each other until they become brain dead. :D

I think all of you people should stop arguing about religion on the internet. All I hear from one side is "Christians are t3h suck becuase t3h existence of god is ABSUUUUURRRRD!" And all I hear from the other side is "You will roast in the seventh layer of HELL! And don't forget to love thy neighbor!"

Seriously. Stop arguing about. It takes faith to believe in God, and it takes faith to believe there is NO God. God can neither be proved or disproved! That's why it's called a FAITH in the first place!

So please everyone! I'm sick of all these arguments! They're meaningless!

Can't we please do something ALL religion's preach? Can't we be a little tolerant and understanding of one another?


The church of tobasco sauce teaches intolerance

Tabasco is delicious. Your beliefs are invalid, as I've eaten your god. Zing!

I must admit, it is entertaining. Like watching two rams continuously headbutt each other until they become brain dead. :D


Actually if rams could become braindead by head butting each other it would make no sense to do so...however i see your point

Can't we please do something ALL religion's preach? Can't we be a little tolerant and understanding of one another?

Psh. Fuck that. This is more fun. Its not like I dont know thins argument had been faught 10 billion times on 12 trillion different forums in 30 zillion different languages with 1 result: The change of nobodys opinion.

Tabasco is delicious. Your beliefs are invalid, as I've eaten your god. Zing!

Ha fool! i am no follower of this church. i preach the word guiness!

CABRA. I JUST SHOWED YOU PROOF.
There is no proof. Anyway faith is pointless with proof, as faith by definition is the believe in something that cannot be proven.

I feel that people who always bandy around "proof" of their faith are deeply afraid and have no real faith. They need this proof to convince themselves that they don't follow the wrong doctrine.

People with faith don't need proof, in fact they even live with doubt. They don't know if what they believe in is true but have faith that it is!

YourMind, I haven't had biology yet heh.
Well perhaps you should continue this discussion when you left pre-school!

Mountana. I have never said that. I am trying to show, yes people will make fun of this, or something, my love for others, by saving them from themselves. I am condeming them. But I am not saying they will "burn" as you put it. I am saying they still have a chance. We aren't screaming at each other... much..

Tabasco is delicious. Your beliefs are invalid, as I've eaten your god. Zing!

Oooooooooo. Thats hard to argue with.

The church of tobasco sauce teaches intolerance

Best Post EVARRR!

Mountana. I have never said that. I am trying to show, yes people will make fun of this, or something, my love for others, by saving them from themselves. I am condeming them. But I am not saying they will "burn" as you put it. I am saying they still have a chance. We aren't screaming at each other... much..


If i want "saving" i will ask someone capable of doing so...the police, ambulance etc..not you..."i havent done biology yet" just suggests your about 6 years old..

Nowoland. Your last sentence does not dignify a response. You act like you are the one who hasn't yet left pre-school.

Faith is believing in something you know to be true, whether or not you have facts. Facts simply strengthen that faith.

Best Post EVARRR!


...Yourmind?.....are you being sarcastic?.....

Black Adder, just like Nowoland. You are acting like because i haven't had biology My opinion doesn't matter. Like I can't be right. And simply based on the fact that I haven't had biology, you are stating Christianity is wrong.

EDIT: I mean really, do I sound like a 6 year old? I haven't had biology. Who cares? i have probably done more math than you, already. Does that mean that in anything math-related, I am right?

You act like you are the one who hasn't yet left pre-school.

"I know you are, but what am I."

Black Adder, just like Nowoland. You are acting like because i haven't had biology My opinion doesn't matter. Like I can't be right. And simply based on the fact that I haven't had biology, you are stating Christianity is wrong.


Nope i just think you should know a little of what you are trying to prove wrong..

Nowoland. Your last sentence does not dignify a response. You act like you are the one who hasn't yet left pre-school.

Faith is believing in something you know to be true, whether or not you have facts. Facts simply strengthen that faith.

And why do you belive what you do? Not becasue of facts (as you just clearly stated) but becasue of good old mommy and daddy who tell you its true.

I'm not saying I am a bible scholar, or anything of the sort. In some form, they have been destroyed, What, Where, When I do not know. I'm sure someone who is older in the Christian faith, or someone who knows more about the bible, could answer you. I am simply a teenager, who is standing up for what they believe in. I do not have all the answers.

Backwoods. how am I offering arrogance and prejudice?

EDIT: YourMind, you're saying because I'm young my opinion doesn't matter? You're saying because I'm young I can't be right? Who is the one showing prejudice and arrogance here?


I'm way past my teens and I read the bible a number of times. It does show some very interesting observance of nature, particularly in Genesis, but there's nothing they couldn't have known about without gods help, sorry.

To see if something is true you have to compare it to reality. If I were to tell you that the chemical formular for aspirin is C9H8O4, would you believe me or would you go look it up?
If I was in your place, I would look it up, and that's just what I did with whatever struck me a curious in the bible.
That's easy enough with the Old Testament, as it is largely historical accounts, told to hold morals and exaggerated into parables.
For the gospels, I am sure Jesus lived, taught and was crucified. But I don't believe that he rose from the dead.

You have to remember, everything you read in the bible was told from generation to generation, first of all, and in that way altered and changed in time.
Then it was writen down, by humans. Who chose what they wanted the bible to include, who chose the words and the stories.
The first account written about Jesus was written 60 years after he died. By a person who never ever saw Jesus.
Jesus never wrote down a single word.

The bible in its current form was agreed upon in 680 AD by a church counsil in Constantinople. They decided to include the 4 gospels we have today, and to leave out a large number we only know about in secondary literature or through rare finds like the scrolls of Qumran.

The bible is man-made, and therefore it is very dangerous to take it word by word.

And why do you belive what you do? Not becasue of facts (as you just clearly stated) but becasue of good old mommy and daddy who tell you its true.


ah...brainwashing at an early age..can't beat it

...Yourmind?.....are you being sarcastic?.....

Hell no. That made me laugh so hard!

This is pointless. You are all ganging up on me, because I am younger. I have given you facts, I have told you the truth, now it's up to you whether or not you wish to belive it. Good day, have fun with your spam-fest.

Hell no. That made me laugh so hard!

....Ok...I am not funny.....dont fall into that trap...so many of my freinds presume the same

Mountana. I have never said that. I am trying to show, yes people will make fun of this, or something, my love for others, by saving them from themselves. I am condeming them. But I am not saying they will "burn" as you put it. I am saying they still have a chance. We aren't screaming at each other... much..

God invented free will, right? Then let the people choose their faith.
It's quite alright to share your faith with someone who's open to it, but don't try to convert the unwilling. It's a waste of time for both of you, and only leaves everyone mad.

This is pointless. You are all ganging up on me, because I am younger. I have given you facts, I have told you the truth, now it's up to you whether or not you wish to belive it. Good day, have fun with your spam-fest.


...i am 16...thats quite young...you may be older than me..you may not
i dont care about how old you are...but at least study up on what you are arguing against

This isnt fair. 3v1. This kid needs backup. I mean I though that 3 v me Star Craft game I played last night was gay, but this is just not even close to balanced.

Spam Spam Spam!!!!!

This isnt fair. 3v1. This kid needs backup. I mean I though that 3 v me Star Craft game I played last night was gay, but this is just not even close to balanced.

hmm....he needs team mates

God invented free will, right? Then let the people choose their faith.
It's quite alright to share your faith with someone who's open to it, but don't try to convert the unwilling. It's a waste of time for both of you, and only leaves everyone mad.

Trying to convert people isn't all that bad. Understand that it's through genuine concern for our wellbeing in the afterlife.

Dear god 10 pages this is rediculous. Maybe some people are reading and will post soon.

This isnt fair. 3v1. This kid needs backup. I mean I though that 3 v me Star Craft game I played last night was gay, but this is just not even close to balanced.

Yup, wasn't fair. But I couldn't for the life of me argue on his side... :p

I'd also like to throw this out to see if any Jeebusites can think of something to say.


God has a plan does he?

So, recently, I attended a funeral for a 3 year old sister of two very close freinds (who are brothers).
The little girl was born with a rare cancer that only affects children.
She was in pain most of her life, due to the Chemo, radiation, and the denegerative bone disease itself.

Her parents were devasted, naturally.

No parent should ever have to bury a child, and most certainly not one so young.

So..was it God's Plan to let this little girl die a slow death, suffering daily, only to leave this world for the peace of death, and the torment of her parents?

Was it Gods plan to have her older brothers watch her die, wishing she would stop fighting for air into her ragged lungs, so she would finally be at peace?

I say no loving God would ever wish this on anyone that he supposedly "cares" about, nor would such a disease exist.
No purpose was served with this poor little girls death, and no "greater good" either.

"God's plan"......its all crap.

Trying to convert people isn't all that bad. Understand that it's through genuine concern for our wellbeing in the afterlife.


Never the less it can seem quite insulting when these people show up on your doorstep asking to "save" you....Thats why i have a huge dog and a gun

"God's plan"......its all crap.

Old news... Im pretty sure I figured that out when I was like 7.

I'd also like to throw this out to see if any Jeebusites can think of something to say.


God has a plan does he?

So, recently, I attended a funeral for a 3 year old sister of two very close freinds (who are brothers).
The little girl was born with a rare cancer that only affects children.
She was in pain most of her life, due to the Chemo, radiation, and the denegerative bone disease itself.

Her parents were devasted, naturally.

No parent should ever have to bury a child, and most certainly not one so young.

So..was it God's Plan to let this little girl die a slow death, suffering daily, only to leave this world for the peace of death, and the torment of her parents?

Was it Gods plan to have her older brothers watch her die, wishing she would stop fighting for air into her ragged lungs, so she would finally be at peace?

I say no loving God would ever wish this on anyone that he supposedly "cares" about, nor would such a disease exist.
No purpose was served with this poor little girls death, and no "greater good" either.

"God's plan"......its all crap.


I agree...no "allpowerfull" being would let it happen

Trying to convert people isn't all that bad. Understand that it's through genuine concern for our wellbeing in the afterlife.

They still should wait until they're asked. It's called manners.

Seriously, I don't have a problem with people converting to whatever they want, and I don't have a problem with people instructing others in their faith, as long as the others asked for that instruction and wanted it in the first place. Otherwise, leave them alone.
There's little worse than well-menaning neighbours...

Trying to convert people isn't all that bad. Understand that it's through genuine concern for our wellbeing in the afterlife.

It's also supreme arrogance on their parts to think they have the correct faith.

Trying to convert people isn't all that bad. Understand that it's through genuine concern for our wellbeing in the afterlife.

I know, I know. Conversion isn't all that bad. I just wish some people would be willing to accept that some just WON'T convert.

I wish all my friends would stop being atheists. But I respect their right to choose their faith. It's not my place to change them.

This is pointless. You are all ganging up on me, because I am younger. I have given you facts, I have told you the truth, now it's up to you whether or not you wish to belive it. Good day, have fun with your spam-fest.
Just so you know, this kind of tactic not only proves your opponents right about you, but it also makes you into an embarassment for whatever cause or "side" you are trying to support (in this case, Christianity). You haven't presented facts, you've presented a great many personal opinions that you have stated in fact form, and you have admitted that you don't even know what you are talking about in several different areas of the discussion.

It's okay to be ignorant...contrary to common usage of the word, ignorance isn't inherently a horrible thing. Pretty much all of us are ignorant to one degree or another, and many of us may be brilliant in one area but totally ignorant of others. Admitting that you are ignorant about a given topic doesn't mean you are admitting you are stupid. If anybody tries to give you crap for admitting that you simply don't know yet, drop me a telegram and I will come get your back.

However, admitting your ignorance and then trying to tell people they should shut up and take your word for it...well, that's just plain sad. Taking pride in being ignorant is also stupid. Revering ignorance as though it were some kind of accomplishment, dressing it up as "faith" and putting it on a golden pedestal, and honoring those who manage to duck reality in order to preserve their personal fictions, these are all the activities of a dishonorable and cowardly mind. Whimpering that you are being picked on simply because others are calling attention to your mistakes is not worthy of you, no matter how young you may be.

I encourage you to stick around through difficult discussions, and to try to avoid getting on the defensive. Approach these forums and these discussions as a learning experience. You can be a teacher at times and a student at others, and there's no shame in either role. Just know when to admit that you are ignorant of the full story.

I agree...no "allpowerfull" being would let it happen

Allpowerfull maybe, and why not? Our moral values don't seem to apply to god, there's more than enough evidence for that.
But "all-loving" and "all-caring"? I can't answer that.

Soviet Union?

I believe they still allowed the russian orhtodox church to practise

I'm just sticking around because i have nothing else to do.

I am younger than, woh was it, blackadder? I am 14. I am just a Freshman in High school, recently "graduated" (I just finished 9th grade, to put it simply). I don't know why God has allowed diseases like that to reaign. To make things absolutely clear, he did not create them. Things like smoking created them. I am pretty sur eno cancer comes from nothing (bad for you).

I wish all my friends would stop being atheists. But I respect their right to choose their faith. It's not my place to change them.

Religion is based on faith, Atheism is based on proof. Didn't we talk about this?

I know, I know. Conversion isn't all that bad. I just wish some people would be willing to accept that some just WON'T convert.

I wish all my friends would stop being atheists. But I respect their right to choose their faith. It's not my place to change them.

I love it when my Christian friends try to convert me. Only problem is though, I'm running out of excuses to be an Atheist.

I'm not saying I am a bible scholar, or anything of the sort. In some form, they have been destroyed, What, Where, When I do not know. I'm sure someone who is older in the Christian faith, or someone who knows more about the bible, could answer you. I am simply a teenager, who is standing up for what they believe in. I do not have all the answers

I’ll take a crack at it, here goes,

Death is the punishment for sin. It has been ever since Adam and Eve. After all, they would have lived forever had they not disobeyed God. Now, Jesus led a perfect life, no sin. Therefore, when He was killed, He could not actually die. That is why He was able to arise from the dead three days latter, but through this sinless death He was punished for all our sins, thus taking the penalty for us. It would be like a judge, who has committed no crimes, convicting his children to death for their despicable crimes. However, when it comes time for the executions, the judge comes down from his bench and puts his head on the chopping block for his children, dieing in their stead.

All we must do is accept Jesus Christ’s free gift of salvation whole-heartedly and we shall have everlasting life in heaven.

Trying to convert people isn't all that bad. Understand that it's through genuine concern for our wellbeing in the afterlife.
I disagree. Anybody who's given real and serious thought to the matter would know that no human being could possibly be certain of the existence or nature of God. It is irresponsible and dishonest, then, to tell other people that you know what/who God is, and how to please God. At the very least, people trying to convert others are being willfully negligent and careless with the wellbeing of their targetted converts.

If you would take other humans' wellbeing on yourself, you owe it to them (and to yourself) to be absolutely certain you really are doing what is best for them. You cannot simply "believe" you are doing the right thing. Belief is enough for yourself, but not when you start claiming you can see the best path for others.

Allpowerfull maybe, and why not? Our moral values don't seem to apply to god, there's more than enough evidence for that.
But "all-loving" and "all-caring"? I can't answer that.


Meh...you may be right..i may be right

1. Atheists have subjugated the entire American and European culture on the premise that somehow saying something that the atheists don't agree with is discrimination... in the process committing reverse discrimination against all religious faiths.

2. (As a Christian) If we read our Bibles and compare the passages to external references, postmodernists like you really have no basis to accuse us of "blind" faith.

3. Adam & Eve in fact had at least 38 daughters & sons, according to the estimated population at the time of the Flood. Adam and Eve's genetic line started out perfect before the Fall of Man. The only reason that inbreeding is prohibited now is because the degradation of the genetic quality has reached a point where the interbreeding of familial lines is likely to cause undesired traits to come out.

I don't believe that i'm discriminated against. I'm happy in my atheism whilst you god fearing folks slaughter the hell out of each other. Does my heart good to see jews muslims christians hindus and catholics all living inperfect harmony. Ha!

Oh thats all right then Cain and abel didn't screw their mother just their sisters....Is the garden of Eden in Arkansas by any chance

Thank You Undelia.

I agree...no "allpowerfull" being would let it happen

Would you want to live in a world without suffering? Without struggle? I wouldn't.

You can't have incredible bliss without crushing sadness, and vice versa.

I'd rather take the good with the bad, rather than be stuck with "Neutral" for all time.

I'm just sticking around because i have nothing else to do.

I am younger than, woh was it, blackadder? I am 14. I am just a Freshman in High school, recently "graduated" (I just finished 9th grade, to put it simply). I don't know why God has allowed diseases like that to reaign. To make things absolutely clear, he did not create them. Things like smoking created them. I am pretty sur eno cancer comes from nothing (bad for you).

If creation comes from God..so does cancer.

The girl was 3.

She didnt smoke.

I'm running out of excuses to be an Atheist.

Ummmm. I have one: Becasue it is t3h AWESOME TOTALL h4Xorz those n00bz boxors! Try it sometime. Im sure they will be forced to agree.

Is the garden of Eden in Arkansas by any chance


:p :p :p :p

I wish all my friends would stop being atheists. But I respect their right to choose their faith. It's not my place to change them.
Yeah, I wish all my friends would stop denying the existence of Santa Claus. But I respect their right to choose their anti-Santa faith.

Would you want to live in a world without suffering? Without struggle? I wouldn't.

You can't have incredible bliss without crushing sadness, and vice versa.

I'd rather take the good with the bad, rather than be stuck with "Neutral" for all time.

Youve never had to bury a small child have you?

Can you imagine the torment a parent would feel when thier child dies?

Nothing on this earth is more awful.

I'm just sticking around because i have nothing else to do.

I am younger than, woh was it, blackadder? I am 14. I am just a Freshman in High school, recently "graduated" (I just finished 9th grade, to put it simply). I don't know why God has allowed diseases like that to reaign. To make things absolutely clear, he did not create them. Things like smoking created them. I am pretty sur eno cancer comes from nothing (bad for you).

Hang on. You would argue that he created the entire world, the whole univers and everything in it. So, everything this univers contains MUST come from god, it cannot come from anywhere else.

That 3-year-old kid most certainly didn't smoke, ever. Cancer is, in essence, body cells that mutiply and mutate out of order. We don't know yet what causes it, but if there's one thing that's undisputable in this univers, it's EVERYTHING comes from something.

Religion is based on faith, Atheism is based on proof. Didn't we talk about this?

Atheism is not based on proof. Atheism is based on the rejection of the supernatural. If it was shown that God could be a natural entity, then Atheists would have no problem believing in him. Whether we could prove that a God existed or not doesn't matter, only the knowledge that it is rationally possible for him to exist.

Would you want to live in a world without suffering? Without struggle? I wouldn't.

You can't have incredible bliss without crushing sadness, and vice versa.

I'd rather take the good with the bad, rather than be stuck with "Neutral" for all time.


there are times when bad things have to happen i agree...but why a 3 year old girl....what was it she did?...

If creation comes from God..so does cancer.

The girl was 3.

She didnt smoke.


Her mother? Second hand smoke? Was her food err, not pasturized.. I can't think of the word. Was her food completely natural? The chemicals used in, for lack of a better word, developing our food can be potentially harmful as well.

EDIT: He did not create cancers or whatever mutations they come from to do what they do now. He did not create them to plague us.

I'm just sticking around because i have nothing else to do.

I am younger than, woh was it, blackadder? I am 14. I am just a Freshman in High school, recently "graduated" (I just finished 9th grade, to put it simply). I don't know why God has allowed diseases like that to reaign. To make things absolutely clear, he did not create them. Things like smoking created them. I am pretty sur eno cancer comes from nothing (bad for you).

There are numerous types of cancer that occur naturally, randomly, and have nothing to do with external influences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancer

I'd rather take the good with the bad, rather than be stuck with "Neutral" for all time.

But you wouldnt know the difference now would you?

That's it. I tried being civil and tolerant of everyone. All I got was vitriolic, self-righteous anger, and tasteless and base jokes that denigrate innocent people.

Fuck all of you. I'm never posting on a thread like this again.

Ummmm. I have one: Becasue it is t3h AWESOME TOTALL h4Xorz those n00bz boxors! Try it sometime. Im sure they will be forced to agree.

I don't understand. Can I have that translated to proper English?

I’ll take a crack at it, here goes,

Death is the punishment for sin. It has been ever since Adam and Eve. After all, they would have lived forever had they not disobeyed God. Now, Jesus led a perfect life, no sin. Therefore, when He was killed, He could not actually die. That is why He was able to arise from the dead three days latter, but through this sinless death He was punished for all our sins, thus taking the penalty for us. It would be like a judge, who has committed no crimes, convicting his children to death for their despicable crimes. However, when it comes time for the executions, the judge comes down from his bench and puts his head on the chopping block for his children, dieing in their stead.

All we must do is accept Jesus Christ’s free gift of salvation whole-heartedly and we shall have everlasting life in heaven.

Yeah and Peter Pan's alive and well and living with Tinkerbell. Good grief do you really believe that garbage.

Her mother? Second hand smoke? Was her food err, not pasturized.. I can't think of the word. Was her food completely natural? The chemicals used in, for lack of a better word, developing our food can be potentially harmful as well.

EDIT: He did not create cancers or whatever mutations they come from to do what they do now. He did not create them to plague us.


Is this being manovered in to that argument..you know..the dude hd to kill his son to prove his love for god?...it just seems it

Youve never had to bury a small child have you?

Can you imagine the torment a parent would feel when thier child dies?

Nothing on this earth is more awful.

That story you told makes me quite sad. If I ever become a parent and something like that happens I think I might be tempted kill myself.

EDIT: He did not create cancers or whatever mutations they come from to do what they do now. He did not create them to plague us.

If he didn't, who did?

Would you want to live in a world without suffering? Without struggle? I wouldn't.

You can't have incredible bliss without crushing sadness, and vice versa.

I'd rather take the good with the bad, rather than be stuck with "Neutral" for all time.

It doesn't matter if you want to live like that or not. God wanted us to be innocent like children. Not knowing the difference between good and evil, not experiencing pain and suffering.

I don't understand. Can I have that translated to proper English?

No.

Her mother? Second hand smoke? Was her food err, not pasturized.. I can't think of the word. Was her food completely natural? The chemicals used in, for lack of a better word, developing our food can be potentially harmful as well.

EDIT: He did not create cancers or whatever mutations they come from to do what they do now. He did not create them to plague us.

Mother was a non-smoker, as was her father.

"they come from to do what they do now"....

What?

Perhaps you dont know what a "Plague" is?

That's it. I tried being civil and tolerant of everyone. All I got was vitriolic, self-righteous anger, and tasteless and base jokes that denigrate innocent people.

Fuck all of you. I'm never posting on a thread like this again.


Who?..Me?...i dont think i made any jokes on degenerating innocent people.......

For whoever it was who gave the wikipedia link...

Mutations can have various causes. Particular causes have been linked to specific types of cancer. Tobacco smoking is associated with lung cancer. Prolonged exposure to radiation, particularly ultraviolet radiation from the sun, leads to melanoma and other skin malignancies. Breathing asbestos fibers is associated with mesothelioma. In more general terms, chemicals called mutagens and free radicals are known to cause mutations. Other types of mutations can be caused by chronic inflammation, as neutrophil granulocytes secrete free radicals that damage DNA. Chromosomal translocations, such as the Philadelphia chromosome, are a special type of mutation that involve exchanges between different chromosomes.

Mutations can also be inherited. Inheriting certain mutations in the BRCA1 gene renders a woman much more likely to develop breast cancer and ovarian cancer, mutations in the Rb1 gene predispose to retinoblastoma, and those in the APC gene lead to colon cancer.

Some types of viruses can cause mutations. They play a role in about 15% of all cancers. Tumor viruses, such as some retroviruses, herpesviruses and papillomaviruses, usually carry some oncogene or tumor suppressor inactivating gene in their genome.



I quoted those exactly from that site.

If he didn't, who did?

We did.

That's it. I tried being civil and tolerant of everyone. All I got was vitriolic, self-righteous anger, and tasteless and base jokes that denigrate innocent people.

Fuck all of you. I'm never posting on a thread like this again.

Why do you people do this? If you're going to stop posting in a thread, just stop posting. Don't throw hissy fits and try to guilt trip everyone for making you leave. Be an adult.

Who?..Me?...i dont think i made any jokes on degenerating innocent people.......

Nor I.

That story you told makes me quite sad. If I ever become a parent and something like that happens I think I might be tempted kill myself.


I dont think the child would like that...you have to be strong in that kind of circumstance...you killing yourself would only add to the pain the other people would bhe feeling

We did.


Your saying that we invented cancer?

For whoever it was who gave the wikipedia link...

Mutations can also be inherited. Inheriting certain mutations in the BRCA1 gene renders a woman much more likely to develop breast cancer and ovarian cancer, mutations in the Rb1 gene predispose to retinoblastoma, and those in the APC gene lead to colon cancer.

Some types of viruses can cause mutations. They play a role in about 15% of all cancers. Tumor viruses, such as some retroviruses, herpesviruses and papillomaviruses, usually carry some oncogene or tumor suppressor inactivating gene in their genome.



I quoted those exactly from that site.

Good job. Now, if certain types of mutations can be inherited, where did they originate? And if some types of viruses can cause mutations, where did the viruses originate?

Ok, you kinda misquoted me there, "or whatever mutations they come from to do what they do now." maybe cancerous cells were meant to have a different purpose. I DONT KNOW. I am not God. I don't know how he works. I don't pretend to.

That story you told makes me quite sad. If I ever become a parent and something like that happens I think I might be tempted kill myself.


Well, her parents have two older boys 6, and 9 as well.
Her father also has three sons from a previous marriage ( of wich I am close freinds with).

So they do have much to live for, and yet....sadly, it was their only duaghter.

It was a sad waste of a beautiful little girl.

How it could be part of a positve plan is beyond me.

I am younger than, woh was it, blackadder? I am 14. I am just a Freshman in High school, recently "graduated" (I just finished 9th grade, to put it simply). I don't know why God has allowed diseases like that to reaign. To make things absolutely clear, he did not create them. Things like smoking created them. I am pretty sur eno cancer comes from nothing (bad for you).
You are 100% wrong about cancers, actually.

Cancer is the result of cells that escape the "death default" built into all normal cells. A normal cell has a program for "cell suicide" (called apoptosis) that will be activated under certain conditions. This is to prevent a damaged or mutated cell from multiplying and spreading throughout the body. However, cancer cells are cells that escape these defaults, and proliferate unchecked.

The mutations that lead to cancer are often caused by things that are "bad for you," like smoking, but even more often they are the result of mutations that we have pretty much no control over. Free radicals, for instance, are produced in your body all the time, and we are flooded with these dangerous molecules through the very process of aerobic respiration (using oxygen to fuel our bodies). The food you eat is full of carcinogenic (cancer-causing) materials.

If God created human life, then He created the human cell. If God created the human cell, then He created human cancer, because cancer is the result of our cells' own machinery at work. Cancer is not a human creation.

I dont think the child would like that...you have to be strong in that kind of circumstance...you killing yourself would only add to the pain the other people would bhe feeling

At that point I dont know if would even care about anything but getting rid of the image of my dead child and all the suffering of my family members around me.

Inherited means it came from a family member. The family member got it from ________. Insert virus, disease, etc there.

The viruses may not have been meant to come in contact with humanity. Definitely not get inside them. Things can have more than one purpose, or effect.

maybe cancerous cells were meant to have a different purpose..

you really weren't kidding when you sid you had never had a biology lesson where you

At that point I dont know if would even care about anything but getting rid of the image of my dead child and all the suffering of my family members around me.


You Killing yourself wouldnt help anyone....death of a family member is no time to be selfish

Bottle. Maybe the food we eat is full of those. But are they meant to be there? Or are they due to pasturization, etc? Do the natural foods have those in them? (I am asking a question, I am not saying I know these things)

Err Blackadder, I meant to say the viruses that form cancerous cells, sorry.

For whoever it was who gave the wikipedia link...

Mutations can have various causes. Particular causes have been linked to specific types of cancer. Tobacco smoking is associated with lung cancer. Prolonged exposure to radiation, particularly ultraviolet radiation from the sun, leads to melanoma and other skin malignancies. Breathing asbestos fibers is associated with mesothelioma. In more general terms, chemicals called mutagens and free radicals are known to cause mutations. Other types of mutations can be caused by chronic inflammation, as neutrophil granulocytes secrete free radicals that damage DNA. Chromosomal translocations, such as the Philadelphia chromosome, are a special type of mutation that involve exchanges between different chromosomes.

Mutations can also be inherited. Inheriting certain mutations in the BRCA1 gene renders a woman much more likely to develop breast cancer and ovarian cancer, mutations in the Rb1 gene predispose to retinoblastoma, and those in the APC gene lead to colon cancer.

Some types of viruses can cause mutations. They play a role in about 15% of all cancers. Tumor viruses, such as some retroviruses, herpesviruses and papillomaviruses, usually carry some oncogene or tumor suppressor inactivating gene in their genome.



I quoted those exactly from that site.


So, he didn't create viruses, he didn't create mutating DNA, he didn't create radiation from the sun and he didn't create mutagens?
If you don't mind me asking, what DID he create then?

Inherited means it came from a family member. The family member got it from ________. Insert virus, disease, etc there.

The viruses may not have been meant to come in contact with humanity. Definitely not get inside them. Things can have more than one purpose, or effect.


...Do you know what a virus is?...

Any of various simple submicroscopic parasites of plants, animals, and bacteria that often cause disease and that consist essentially of a core of RNA or DNA surrounded by a protein coat. Unable to replicate without a host cell, viruses are typically not considered living organisms.
A disease caused by a virus.

Bottle. Maybe the food we eat is full of those. But are they meant to be there? Or are they due to pasturization, etc? Do the natural foods have those in them? (I am asking a question, I am not saying I know these things)

Err Blackadder, I meant to say the viruses that form cancerous cells, sorry.
100% natural foods contain carcinogenic compounds. Breathing 100% pure air is carcinogenic. Drinking 100% pure water leads to internal processes that produce carcinogens.

He created them, maybe not for the purpose of cancer though. For one thing, all the radiation we get is mostly our fault, destroying the Ozone layer and all.

Inherited means it came from a family member. The family member got it from ________. Insert virus, disease, etc there.

The viruses may not have been meant to come in contact with humanity. Definitely not get inside them. Things can have more than one purpose, or effect.

The family member got it from one of their parents, who got it from one of their parents, etc. If it were contracted by a means other than through the genes, it wouldn't be called "hereditary".

Bottle. Maybe the food we eat is full of those. But are they meant to be there? Or are they due to pasturization, etc? Do the natural foods have those in them? (I am asking a question, I am not saying I know these things)

Err Blackadder, I meant to say the viruses that form cancerous cells, sorry.


...I will have to look in to that...my virology (if that is even the rite word) is dim...

He created them, maybe not for the purpose of cancer though. For one thing, all the radiation we get is mostly our fault, destroying the Ozone layer and all.
Also not true. The vast majority of human exposure to radiation is not in any way our fault, but is simply the natural result of living on planet Earth. Only a very small percentage of our radiation exposure is in any way connected to any human actions.

How about we just get off the whole cancer/biology/virology stuff?

Any of various malignant neoplasms characterized by the proliferation of anaplastic cells that tend to invade surrounding tissue and metastasize to new body sites.
The pathological condition characterized by such growths.
A pernicious, spreading evil: A cancer of bigotry spread through the community.

He created them, maybe not for the purpose of cancer though. For one thing, all the radiation we get is mostly our fault, destroying the Ozone layer and all.

This is untrue; the ozone layer is not completely destroyed in any respect. You can get cancer simply by staying out in the sun too long, with a 100% complete ozone layer above you.

How old did you say you were ...14?

Get a skateboard
Get to first base
Have your first beer.

Are you an only child of religious parents. Salt Lake City perhaps?

But what makes you so sure that your path is the right one, that you feel you are in a position to converse others?

I'm not sure. That's what faith is about.

I don't try to convert people, I understand that there are people from different religions or atheists.

BUT that doesn't give them the right to say some of the things I hear like "I declare war on Christians because blah blah blah"

Or saying just plain stupid shit about my religion like how we're all fasists or brain washers or crap like that.

It seems that if anyone else gets badmouthed, they can fight back, but as a Catholic I have to sit here and take it- pffft, that isn't gonna happen.

For the record, I respect gay christians for maintaining their faith and don't badmouth them

How about we just get off the whole cancer/biology/virology stuff?

Then either back off your claim that God did not create cancer, or prove us wrong.

Bottle. Maybe the food we eat is full of those. But are they meant to be there? Or are they due to pasturization, etc? Do the natural foods have those in them? (I am asking a question, I am not saying I know these things)

Err Blackadder, I meant to say the viruses that form cancerous cells, sorry.

Trust me, cancer is nothing humans created. It was around a long time before them. Neither did humans created viruses, they evolved as parasites.
Cancer is something that simply can be programed into human cells without anybody being at fault. Except for god, if he truly created human cells...

How about we just get off the whole cancer/biology/virology stuff?

Thats a nice tactic, anytime you lose an argument say "can we just move on?".

I'm not sure. That's what faith is about.

I don't try to convert people, I understand that there are people from different religions or atheists.

BUT that doesn't give them the right to say some of the things I hear like "I declare war on Christians because blah blah blah"

Or saying just plain stupid shit about my religion like how we're all fasists or brain washers or crap like that.

It seems that if anyone else gets badmouthed, they can fight back, but as a Catholic I have to sit here and take it- pffft, that isn't gonna happen.

For the record, I respect gay christians for maintaining their faith and don't badmouth them

How do feel about having a nazi for a pope?

How about we just get off the whole cancer/biology/virology stuff?

Seconded.

It's a bit pointless to argue here, if the other side simply doesn't have the relevant information yet. It's unfair.g

How about we just get off the whole cancer/biology/virology stuff?
Why? Don't you feel you have a big problem here? I mean, it seems to me that there is a great big gaping hole in your God theory...doesn't that bother you? Don't you want to work it out, so that you can be secure in your understanding of the divine? Would you really prefer to just shut your eyes every time somebody points out a possible problem with your theory? What are you afraid of? Will understanding the natural world somehow destroy your God?

We did.

By George, I think he’s got it. :D

You see, we are living in a sin marred world, in sin marred bodies. Sin corrupts everything, even the most innocent among us. Our sins and the sins of our ancestors, caused this girl’s suffering. Everything bad in the world is caused because we sin and because the world (the physical one) is effectively run by Satan, who wants nothing more than to discourage us from our faith. This is why you may have heard people say that it was not the Jews or the Romans who killed Jesus, it was all of us and all of our sins.

How old did you say you were ...14?

Get a skateboard
Get to first base
Have your first beer.

Are you an only child of religious parents. Salt Lake City perhaps?

What the hell do any of those things have to do with his religious beliefs, or his ability to articulate his beliefs?

How do feel about having a nazi for a pope?

I have ex-Nazis for grandfathers, so I can cope with that.
I don't like the current pope for other reasons...

He created them, maybe not for the purpose of cancer though. For one thing, all the radiation we get is mostly our fault, destroying the Ozone layer and all.


Ok.

Lets get away from biology, and get back to philosophy.

If, an all knowing, all powerful God, indeed created us, and our brains, then is it not possible, athat all we have done, is according to this plan?

Therefore, is it not possible that such things, like the depletion of the ozone layer, wich can be linked to over exsposure of solar radiation, wich cuases skin cancer.......is entirely as we are meant to do?

What the hell do any of those things have to do with his religious beliefs, or his ability to articulate his beliefs?

...*sighs* doesnt matter....

How do feel about having a nazi for a pope?

You sir are Racist.

Most German Men at his age were in the Hitler Youth or German army. Not all volenteered. And only the minority were full blown Nazis.

How old did you say you were ...14?

Get a skateboard
Get to first base
Have your first beer.

Are you an only child of religious parents. Salt Lake City perhaps?

Err.... no?
Err.... no?
Err.... no?

Then there's another... no, and another no!


And fine, ok, I lose, for now. Happy?

Seconded.

It's a bit pointless to argue here, if the other side simply doesn't have the relevant information yet. It's unfair.g
I'm honestly not trying to argue this subject with him, I'm trying to explain things to him. As I said before, I don't think there's anything wrong with somebody being admittedly ignorant of biology...some people just haven't learned it yet. I like biology, I think it's fun, and I enjoy telling other people about it. I think this young fellow will have a better understanding of his world and his life if he learns some of these things, and I think that would be nice.

I really don't mean to sound hostile or rude in anything I've been posting, I'm just trying to be very blunt and clear (because biology can be murky). I think this is a very important aspect of this discussion, since the image of The One True God some people put forth is simply inconsistent with the natural world as we know it.

Ok.

Lets get away from biology, and get back to philosophy.

If, an all knowing, all powerful God, indeed created us, and our brains, then is it not possible, athat all we have done, is according to this plan?

Therefore, is it not possible that such things, like the depletion of the ozone layer, wich can be linked to over exsposure of solar radiation, wich cuases skin cancer.......is entirely as we are meant to do?


Indeed and if god created everyrthiong and has a plan therefore everything is pre-ordaned, thereofre no matter what we do its all to his plan.....so either way you are going to "hell" or "heaven"

I'm not sure. That's what faith is about.

I don't try to convert people, I understand that there are people from different religions or atheists.

BUT that doesn't give them the right to say some of the things I hear like "I declare war on Christians because blah blah blah"

Or saying just plain stupid shit about my religion like how we're all fasists or brain washers or crap like that.

It seems that if anyone else gets badmouthed, they can fight back, but as a Catholic I have to sit here and take it- pffft, that isn't gonna happen.

For the record, I respect gay christians for maintaining their faith and don't badmouth them


Then my question wasn't directed at you in the first place.
I feel exactly the same, but I was wondering about everybody else.

Ok.

Lets get away from biology, and get back to philosophy.

If, an all knowing, all powerful God, indeed created us, and our brains, then is it not possible, athat all we have done, is according to this plan?

Therefore, is it not possible that such things, like the depletion of the ozone layer, wich can be linked to over exsposure of solar radiation, wich cuases skin cancer.......is entirely as we are meant to do?


Except for the little thing he gave us called free will. Also the reason you don't agree with me. If all that was a plan, this discussion wouldn't be happening, because according to a plan of his, we would all live following him.

And we can have the whole biological argument in a year or so, after I'v egone through basic Bio ... :)

What the hell do any of those things have to do with his religious beliefs, or his ability to articulate his beliefs?


Because the poor little f*cker doen't know why he believes. And he certainly doesn't articulate or reason particularly well. He needs some life experience or does he want to spend the rest of his life with a bad haircut and a suit knocking on doors and listening to the god channel

I'm honestly not trying to argue this subject with him, I'm trying to explain things to him. As I said before, I don't think there's anything wrong with somebody being admittedly ignorant of biology...some people just haven't learned it yet. I like biology, I think it's fun, and I enjoy telling other people about it. I think this young fellow will have a better understanding of his world and his life if he learns some of these things, and I think that would be nice.

I really don't mean to sound hostile or rude in anything I've been posting, I'm just trying to be very blunt and clear (because biology can be murky). I think this is a very important aspect of this discussion, since the image of The One True God some people put forth is simply inconsistent with the natural world as we know it.


Sure, but in fairness, there's no hope he could catch up on microbiology, genetics, biochemistry and the environmetal behaviourism in this thread.... That's just way too much.

Except for the little thing he gave us called free will. Also the reason you don't agree with me. If all that was a plan, this discussion wouldn't be happening, because according to a plan of his, we would all live following him.

And we can have the whole biological argument in a year or so, after I'v egone through basic Bio ... :)

But if he doesn't have a plan, how can he be omniscient?

Except for the little thing he gave us called free will. Also the reason you don't agree with me. If all that was a plan, this discussion wouldn't be happening, because according to a plan of his, we would all live following him.

Inless he intended us to be here talking about this...read my post on pre-ordaned

Because the poor little f*cker doen't know why he believes. And he certainly doesn't articulate or reason particularly well. He needs some life experience or does he want to spend the rest of his life with a bad haircut and a suit knocking on doors and listening to the god channel


You're giving the atheists/agnostics a bad name, I suggest you stop.

Because the poor little f*cker doen't know why he believes. And he certainly doesn't articulate or reason particularly well. He needs some life experience or does he want to spend the rest of his life with a bad haircut and a suit knocking on doors and listening to the god channel

Why do his reasons for believing make his beliefs any less valid? You seem to be well assured in your own beliefs; how much life experience do you have?

Inless he intended us to be here talking about this...read my post on pre-ordaned


We assume predestination is incorrect because that would eliminate the free will he gave us. Thus, it would be biblically inconsistent.

You sir are Racist.

Most German Men at his age were in the Hitler Youth or German army. Not all volenteered. And only the minority were full blown Nazis.


How does that make me a racist, i was just posing a question. Like most "liberals" you stifle debate by bringing up the racist card as usual.

A good topic that got back into the same ol proof vs faith arguement

Lets pull it back on track

Its really a simple question

What makes YOUR god the right one?

We assume predestination is incorrect because that would eliminate the free will he gave us. Thus, it would be biblically inconsistent.


So it says in the bible

"and so god said to kimberly " you have free willl...go and spend it wisely while i watch the test cricket" ??

How does that make me a racist, i was just posing a question. Like most "liberals" you stifle debate by bringing up the racist card as usual.
And rather then continue on with the arguement you bring up the "libeals suck" card as usual

:rolleyes:

A good topic that got back into the same ol proof vs faith arguement

Lets pull it back on track

Its really a simple question

What makes YOUR god the right one?

I am my own god, there is no way I can know anything else for sure except for the fact that my concoiusness exists.... pretty simple. And not very reassuring.

You're giving the atheists/agnostics a bad name, I suggest you stop.


Stop what ?

I am my own god, there is no way I can know anything else for sure except for the fact that my concoiusness exists.... pretty simple. And not very reassuring.
Intresting perspective lol reminds me of

lol for some reason reminded me of this arguement
DORE'S ARGUMENT
(1) I forgot to take my meds.
(2) Therefore, I AM CHRIST!!
(3) Therefore, God exists.

(note not making fun of your belief just off hand rememberance that i thought I would sharE)

Intresting perspective lol reminds me of

lol for some reason reminded me of this arguement
DORE'S ARGUMENT
(1) I forgot to take my meds.
(2) Therefore, I AM CHRIST!!
(3) Therefore, God exists.

(note not making fun of your belief just off hand rememberance that i thought I would sharE)

Mmmkaaaaay....