NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.glasnost.de/hist/usa/1935invasion.html

That link includes a full-text version of a plan submited by the US Army War College (West Point), G-2 intelligence division, for a US invasion of Canada. And it looks scaringly accurate for the time.

Not only did they have a plan, but they also were practicing and spending millions of dollars preparing to do it:


In February 1935, the War Department arranged a
Congressional appropriation of $57 million dollars to
build three border air bases for the purposes of
pre-emptive surprise attacks on Canadian air fields. The
base in the Great Lakes region was to be camouflaged as a
civilian airport and was to "be capable of dominating the
industrial heart of Canada, the Ontario Peninsula" from p.
61 of the February 11-13, 1935, hearings of the Committee
on Military Affairs, House of Representatives, on Air
Defense Bases (H.R. 6621 and H.R. 4130). This testimony
was to have been secret but was published by mistake. See
the New York Times, May 1, 1935, p. 1.

In August 1935, the US held its largest peacetime
military manoeuvres in history, with 36,000 troops
converging at the Canadian border south of Ottawa, and
another 15,000 held in reserve in Pennsylvania. The war
game scenario was a US motorized invasion of Canada, with
the defending forces initially repulsing the invading Blue
forces, but eventually to lose "outnumbered and outgunned"
when Blue reinforcements arrive. This according to the
Army's pamphlet "Souvenir of of the First Army Maneuvers:
The Greatest Peace Time Event in US History" (p.2).

People believe anything they want to believe. The internet is a magical place, not a realistic place.

...

I mean, c'mon...have you taken a look around the internet lately?

EDIT: Why do I think a War of 1812 debate will spawn sometime later in this thread?

That was if Canada was tooken out by germany and the US need a plan to strike back.

But...why?

I am certain the US has plans to invade Canada now, somewhere in a filing cabinet just in case. You never know if say the Quebec seperatist movement goes Al-Queada on everyone and starts blowing up buildings or something and the US might have to stabalize the situation.

Actually, if I were President, I'd damn well make sure I'd have the plans to invade any and all nations around me. Cuba, Canada, and Mexico. I mean, you never know...

But that's just me.

But...why?

Tactical planning exercises, some of which may become useful if the unthinkable happens - for example, War Plan Orange dealt with a Pacific war against Japan, and was not without influence come WWII. Those who bought in the whole 'cheese-eating surrender monkeys' scam might want to do some research on War Plan Gold.

They should have plans to invade Quebec anyway. If Quebec whent all terrorist, they wouldn't need to invade Canada to do it, we'd help them invade Quebec.

Actually, if I were President, I'd damn well make sure I'd have the plans to invade any and all nations around me. Cuba, Canada, and Mexico. I mean, you never know...

War Plans Gray, Red and Green, respectively.

People believe anything they want to believe. The internet is a magical place, not a realistic place.

...

I mean, c'mon...have you taken a look around the internet lately?

EDIT: Why do I think a War of 1812 debate will spawn sometime later in this thread?

First part:

It's actually a declassified government document. Not an internet rumor.

Second part:

It will eventually. After all, the US sacked Toronto.

Actually, if I were President, I'd damn well make sure I'd have the plans to invade any and all nations around me. Cuba, Canada, and Mexico. I mean, you never know...

But that's just me.


I'd do the same if I was president....they always say better safe then sorry and 9 times outta 10 I end up sorry :p

what is it with people (could they be anglophone Canadians - :eek: ) and Quebec? Not everyone in Quebec is a separatist, and not every separatist is a spawn of Satan.

As for the validity of the plan? Meh, i think they probably do have invasion plans for their close neighbours...

What a way to settle the soft wood lumber dispute... or mad cow disease... or to gain hydro-electricity... or a vaste water supply!

But this was a plan they followed up on and almost did:

In February 1935, the War Department arranged a
Congressional appropriation of $57 million dollars to
build three border air bases for the purposes of
pre-emptive surprise attacks on Canadian air fields. The
base in the Great Lakes region was to be camouflaged as a
civilian airport and was to "be capable of dominating the
industrial heart of Canada, the Ontario Peninsula" from p.
61 of the February 11-13, 1935, hearings of the Committee
on Military Affairs, House of Representatives, on Air
Defense Bases (H.R. 6621 and H.R. 4130). This testimony
was to have been secret but was published by mistake. See
the New York Times, May 1, 1935, p. 1.

In August 1935, the US held its largest peacetime
military manoeuvres in history, with 36,000 troops
converging at the Canadian border south of Ottawa, and
another 15,000 held in reserve in Pennsylvania. The war
game scenario was a US motorized invasion of Canada, with
the defending forces initially repulsing the invading Blue
forces, but eventually to lose "outnumbered and outgunned"
when Blue reinforcements arrive. This according to the
Army's pamphlet "Souvenir of of the First Army Maneuvers:
The Greatest Peace Time Event in US History" (p.2).

cool.

But this was a plan they were going to follow up on and actually do:

By this logic the US were going to actually nuke the USSR during the cold war: having measures in place in case of contingencies does not indicate a desire to actually carry out the plans which recquire them.

War Plans Gray, Red and Green, respectively.
Plan Red for Canada, as in STOP don't go there!! :D

IF you do decide to invade, please come in the winter. In winter, we can put on our skates and take you down with our hockey sticks. :cool:

Plan Red for Canada, as in STOP don't go there!! :D

IF you do decide to invade, please come in the winter. In winter, we can put on our skates and take you down with our hockey sticks. :cool:

Yea, just hope they don't follow up on the part involving citizens of Quebec being gassed.... :)

I belive there's a clause in the Constitution for making Canada a state, but I could be wrong. It was certainly viable when the Constitution was written.

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcanadawar.html

Straight Dope says it be true.


U.S. plans to invade Canada after the First World War? This is one of the most bizarre stories I've come across on the Internet, and the most bizarre part is that it's true. The U.S. military really did develop a "Joint Army and Navy Basic War Plan--Red" in the 1920s and '30s, and it really did include provisions for an invasion of Canada by the United States.

Geez. American paranoia just didn't start with the Cold War.

ah fiddlesticks! what maybe its true! nah, it could be made up anyone could make that with some trianing. eh, good laugh tho. (<----- didn't evan read any!)

You think that's funny/crazy/nutty, you ain't seen nothin yet. During the 1930s (or was it 1920s?), Canada had a plan for invading the US! Talk about wishful thinking...

Tactical planning exercises, some of which may become useful if the unthinkable happens - for example, War Plan Orange dealt with a Pacific war against Japan, and was not without influence come WWII. Those who bought in the whole 'cheese-eating surrender monkeys' scam might want to do some research on War Plan Gold.

Exactly. While the obvious threats are, well, obvious, it's the less obvious ones that can bite you on the ass. Better to have a general and slightly out of date plan than none at all.
And, AFAIK, the non-use and use respectively of War Plan Grey in planning operations Urgent Fury and Just Cause, contributed to the problems of the first and the better successes of the second.
And War Plan White or "Operation Garden Plot", is a good one to feed the various conspiracy mongers. :D

BTW, here's some more good info on historical and current "Rainbow" War Plans:
http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/2004121222.asp

And on historical War Plan Crimson: http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcanadawar.html

Most of War Plan Crimson's geographic, economic, and political considerations are still applicable today.

Its part and parcel of having a General Staff. All you do is sit around and plan to the last detail every possible contingency just in case. Then you constantly update them to reflect your zone of influence and force structure. You need this shit so when the President says "I want to invade ____", the chiefs of staff can say; 'we estimate it will take x amount of force, requiring y long, and result in z number of american casualties'.

Remember: Prior Planning and Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance. (Sometimes)

Naturally, this system breaks down once civilian government sticks its oar in and starts offering "advice", and placing bizzare restrictions on the execution. Not to mention things like rules of engagement. (Think vietnam).

Probably had plans for the invasion of Brazil and Argentina in 1935 too. Doesn't mean anything.

Plan Red for Canada, as in STOP don't go there!! :D


War Plan Red was for the UK. Shades of red were used for the big commonwealth countries. The one for Canada was War Plan Crimson. And the ANZACs got War Plan Scarlet.

I was going to make the point that the U.S. had a detailed plan to invade the United Kingdom back around World War I. The U.K. had a plan to invade the United States then as well. Even though it's bloody unlikely such a plan will ever be needed, you still make those plans. At the very least, it forces you to adjust to the kind of fighting each "enemy" country specialises in.

In NS, I even try to come up with battle plans against my closest allies, even though I'd only ever use them if I or they made a so-called heel turn. It never hurts to plan things out to the Nth detail.

Actually, I'd be damn well surprised if we aren't already figuring out ways to counter any European Union military force in any possible future event and be prepared for an invasion.

Hell, we should have plans for just about every country in the world if we need to invade them. I'm sure Britain does the same thing. It's only common sense.

Do you think the U.S. is going to figure all this stuff out in hours in case of WW3 breaks out and suddenly France is invaded and we need to push the enemies out of there....:rolleyes: :)

You think that's funny/crazy/nutty, you ain't seen nothin yet. During the 1930s (or was it 1920s?), Canada had a plan for invading the US! Talk about wishful thinking...

It was primarily defensive though.

Well, after the Great War the Royal Navy included the possibility of kicking-the-shite-out-of-America in its various plans for possible future conflcits, so this isn't terribly surprising.

Frankly, if it had come to war between the US and Canada in the 30s, I think that Canada would have won pretty easily. The American army was something of a joke, and still practicing cavalry tactics during the fall of France.

As an extension, the UK would presumably have joined in on Canada's side, and while Americans doughboys and cavalrymen were being run over by Canadian tanks in the northeast, the Royal Navy would have been obliterating the American fleets and coastlines, and probably it would have been enough to make Britain go along with what Hitler most wanted, an Anglo-German alliance.

Interesting! "US attacks Canada, loses badly, Hitler lives for another thirty years"

And War Plan White or "Operation Garden Plot", is a good one to feed the various conspiracy mongers. :D

IIRC it currently masquerades under the nom-de-guerre of Noble Eagle, yes?

I was going to make the point that the U.S. had a detailed plan to invade the United Kingdom back around World War I.

It also had plans to nuke the UK, and most of the rest of Western Europe for that matter, during the Cold War. I seem to recall something about there being some American ICBMs which had the British Isles as their primary default targets, but wouldn't want to make anything like an authoritative statement on the matter.

IIRC it currently masquerades under the nom-de-guerre of Noble Eagle, yes?

That's the one.

You think that's funny/crazy/nutty, you ain't seen nothin yet. During the 1930s (or was it 1920s?), Canada had a plan for invading the US! Talk about wishful thinking...


What was so fucking crazy about that at the time? Militarily speaking both countries had let their services lapse to a great degree after WWI and were probably on near-even footing in the early 30's, and certainly as Canada ramped up for WWII before the US, they would have had an advantage. Given that there WERE voices in power in the US still taking a pro-German stance and Canada's treaty obligations with Great Britain made it clear which side of the conflict we would be on, frankly taking a look at what might need to be done was a prudent thing to do. And look at those treaty obligations from both sides. Canada had the British Empire guaranteed to jump in should hostilities be required. The US had no such alliance. In 1930, if a Canada US war erupted it would have been the US versus Canada, Britain, Australia, New Zealand, India, etc. And frankly, you would have lost.

Don't make the common mistake of thinking that the US was some sort of fucking military superpower in the 20s and 30s. It had the industrial base to make itself one, but the isolationist viewpoint and the anti-military sentiment after WWI meant that your armed forces were extremely subpar at the time when matched against many others. And having the industrial potential is rather less helpful if the war is being fought ON your land rather than across the ocean.

It wasn't until AFTER WWII that the US could lay claim to any such superiority in military matters.

it doesn't matter, the U.S can't invade now or the U.N would step in

it doesn't matter, the U.S can't invade now or the U.N would step in
That's cute.

That's cute.

Very, very cute. ;)

Poll added.

They're planning to invade Mexico now. In that way they solve the illegal immigration problem and the outsourcing to foreign countries problem.

By this logic the US were going to actually nuke the USSR during the cold war: having measures in place in case of contingencies does not indicate a desire to actually carry out the plans which recquire them.

Was War Plan Red meant to be against Britain only or the British Commonwealth (Canada included)? I once did a scenario in this naval battle game postulating that Lucky Lindy wins and a second War of 1812 breaks out with G3 Battlecruisers facing off vs the NEW Ironsides (Lexington Class BC's Constitution, Constellation and United States) - interesting game.

Yeah there were different contingency plans for fighting against various potential threats. Even against those who were considered allies. Case in point - Mers el Kebir.

Greetings from the Republic of Maharlikana

Okay not technically an 'official link' but these makes for interesting hypothetical wargames.

http://www.strategypage.com/strategypagegamestore/us_navy_plan_red.asp

Tactical planning exercises, some of which may become useful if the unthinkable happens - for example, War Plan Orange dealt with a Pacific war against Japan, and was not without influence come WWII. Those who bought in the whole 'cheese-eating surrender monkeys' scam might want to do some research on War Plan Gold.

I can accept that. I'm fairly certain plans existed for a complete military occupation of Quebec by Canadian Forces during the FLQ crisis. Mostly for the same reasons as War Plan Crimson. I have a hard time beleiving War Plan Crimson was evr anything more than a hypothetical exercise on paper only. I think it would have been a very long and very bloody campaign if it ever came to pass.

With a wilderness as vast as Canada's, insurgents and guerilla groups would have been near impossible to eradicate. If either the US or Canada had won a war against each other back then, they would have lost the peace (like the US has been doing Iraq, sadly)

I wonder if Canada was aware of these plans (likely) and if Canada ever took it for anything besides the same type of purely hypothetical war plans its own military looked into (not bloody likely)

Specialist combined forces like The Black Devils show that co-operation between the respective militaries of US and Canada was seen as logical and natural thing, and not hampered by any kind of ingrained dislike between the two militaries.

http://www.glasnost.de/hist/usa/1935invasion.html

That link includes a full-text version of a plan submited by the US Army War College (West Point), G-2 intelligence division, for a US invasion of Canada. And it looks scaringly accurate for the time.

Not only did they have a plan, but they also were practicing and spending millions of dollars preparing to do it:

Belgium had plans to invade Holland in 1919. After (and thank's to) WWI it was fully armed (tanks, gas aso..) and trained after 4 years war and wanted to help the Dutch Flemings that wanted to join Belgium and leave Holland, only a warning from the UK allies and (to small) compensation with some lousy German ground (Eupen, Malmédy) but no money (like the UK and France received) prevented a destructive war on Dutch soil..

Would be a easy war against a Army in Holland that was still living in the era of 1815.

Was War Plan Red meant to be against Britain only or the British Commonwealth (Canada included)? I once did a scenario in this naval battle game postulating that Lucky Lindy wins and a second War of 1812 breaks out with G3 Battlecruisers facing off vs the NEW Ironsides (Lexington Class BC's Constitution, Constellation and United States) - interesting game.

Yeah there were different contingency plans for fighting against various potential threats. Even against those who were considered allies. Case in point - Mers el Kebir.

Greetings from the Republic of Maharlikana

Red was against the UK, but Crimson and Scarlet generally assumed that those would be implimented as adjuncts to Red, thus the choice of shades of red.

And you might note that link was posted by soMEone above (#22). ;)

I voted Practice to be funny.

But if this is true.. I'm pretty sure it would be for Resources-Land.

They're planning to invade Mexico now. In that way they solve the illegal immigration problem and the outsourcing to foreign countries problem.


I thought Mexico was invading US!

:rolleyes:

I voted Practice to be funny.

But if this is true.. I'm pretty sure it would be for Resources-Land.

Well, it could be over resources - timber and fisheries in particular, but land is doubtful at best, not unless the US population starts growing at much, much, much higher rates (as in serious double or triple digits).

I voted similarly, BTW - "to piss off the UK" - part as a joke and partly because that was the closest thing to the most likely reason as seen by the Rainbow War Plans - as a part of War Plan Red against the UK.

War Plans Gray, Red and Green, respectively.
You mean Gray, Crimson and Green... Red was Great Britain.

I thought Mexico was invading US!

:rolleyes:

I'd be rather surprised if the militaries of both Canada and Mexico did not have plans for both defensive and offensive operations against the US.

Or you simply do it like Sweden in the Cold War and train your population in non-violent resistance and sabotage and just not have an army at all.
It was an excellent idea. They couldn't have stood up to the USSR anyways and would've saved a lot of lives with that tactic.

Outta curiosity, has the DOD got a War Plan somewhere for an invasion/war with the United Kingdom?

Or you simply do it like Sweden in the Cold War and train your population in non-violent resistance and sabotage and just not have an army at all.
It was an excellent idea. They couldn't have stood up to the USSR anyways and would've saved a lot of lives with that tactic.

:confused:

You must be confusing their neutrality policy somehow. Sweden by no means abolished their military, as you suggest.

Outta curiosity, has the DOD got a War Plan somewhere for an invasion/war with the United Kingdom?

Mmmm... that has been mentioned several times in this very thread already. The Ranbow War Plan for the UK was Wap Plan Red. I'm not sure what the name for the current variation is.

I thought Mexico was invading US!

:rolleyes:
Nah, it's just trade. You buy our natural resources for a pittance, your corporations anihilate our industry and buy out any successful company, you put our politicians in your pockets; and we send a few people to keep production over your side cheap. It works out, you see. Fair trade.

I'd be rather surprised if the militaries of both Canada and Mexico did not have plans for both defensive and offensive operations against the US.
Mexico's include surrendering with grace and escaping to LA to get a job as a waiter :D

According to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Color-coded_War_Plans), "Many of the war plans are extremely hypothetical considering the state of international relations in the 1920s. Often, junior officers were given the task of updating the plans to keep them busy."

Well the US tried to invade Canada in 1812 and had their ass kicked.

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761571913_1/War_of_1812.html

The only way the US was ever able to seize land from Canada was through political and legal battles.
For example:
- Canada got screwed when the US bought Alaska; the US managed to have the borders redrawned to their advantage.
- Pre-US independence: peasant revolt in northern Maine forced the British authorities to redraw the border between Canada and the US. Canada lost half of the Temiscouata valley (south east of Quebec City).

Also, the US let Irish terrorists cross into Canada in 1866!!!!! :eek: The Fenians were veterans of the US Civil War; they wanted to "seize Canada" and keep the territory as hostage, to exchange it against the independence of Ireland. This was a totally crazy plan, but the US authorities let them go just in case the crazy irish men would succeed. This led to bloody battles on canadian soil.

http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~dbertuca/g/FenianRaid.html

Plan Red for Canada, as in STOP don't go there!! :D

IF you do decide to invade, please come in the winter. In winter, we can put on our skates and take you down with our hockey sticks. :cool:

LOL CH! BTW: How is your vaunted Military doing these days? Navy still at the bottom? LOL

We'll take you down with our baseball bats! They hurt more than hockey sticks.

I was going to make the point that the U.S. had a detailed plan to invade the United Kingdom back around World War I. The U.K. had a plan to invade the United States then as well. Even though it's bloody unlikely such a plan will ever be needed, you still make those plans. At the very least, it forces you to adjust to the kind of fighting each "enemy" country specialises in.

Considering in the 1920s, the US and Britain nearly did have yet ANOTHER full blown war, its not surprising that both nations had plans to invade eachother.

Actually, I'd be damn well surprised if we aren't already figuring out ways to counter any European Union military force in any possible future event and be prepared for an invasion.

I'm sure we have plans in the works for this. It'll be a great mistake not too. I'm sure we have plans on Israel too though I doubt we'll use them unless some muslim country decides to conquer it.

Hell, we should have plans for just about every country in the world if we need to invade them. I'm sure Britain does the same thing. It's only common sense.

Yep, it is common sense. I'm sure we have war plans that don't involve nukes on Russia and China too.

Do you think the U.S. is going to figure all this stuff out in hours in case of WW3 breaks out and suddenly France is invaded and we need to push the enemies out of there....:rolleyes: :)

Nope.

it doesn't matter, the U.S can't invade now or the U.N would step in

This is a joke right?

Okay not technically an 'official link' but these makes for interesting hypothetical wargames.

http://www.strategypage.com/strategypagegamestore/us_navy_plan_red.asp

Very very interesting. Thanks Maharlikana.

Outta curiosity, has the DOD got a War Plan somewhere for an invasion/war with the United Kingdom?

They probably do.

That was if Canada was tooken out by germany and the US need a plan to strike back.

Uhm, maybe you need to look at world history in the 1930s, bud. Germany wasn't a real threat to other countries until they started invading in 1939.

This plan was written well before then.

It was primarily defensive though.
I just wonder what would be our countries response if we woke up tomorrow morning with tanks rolling down wellington st. We prbably wouldn't react until we've had our Tim Hortons, after that who knows?

Canucks are commies.

War Plan Red was for the UK. Shades of red were used for the big commonwealth countries. The one for Canada was War Plan Crimson. And the ANZACs got War Plan Scarlet.
So does the US military keep plans for invading every country in the world? CAn Ireland have plan Green? :D