NationStates Jolt Archive

A lot of people on this forum make the distinction that Islam is different because it doesn't try and force itself on others or shove itself down the throat of non-believers.

But that's just not true. Instead of just knocking on your door and bothering you like the Mormons, or trying to witness (when it is easy to tell people to "fuck off"), Islam targets schools, and school age children, to spread it's message. All the while insisting that public schools be kept free of "non-muslim influences".

This is twenty times worse than the run of the mill proselytizing done by run of the mill loony christians, because not only is it "shoving it down peoples throats", it is co-opting the government to do so. And making it difficult, or almost impossible, for people who do not want to hear anything about islam to avoid contact with it. Moreover it is tartgeting children, some as young as elementary school age, because they are especially receptive to the message of islam. Disgusting. And also hypocritical.

Here's the link cliky (http://www.dawanet.com/methods/publicschool.dawapublic.asp)

Seems pretty throat shovey to me. The rest of the site is also full of good tricks to get "invite people to the truth of Islam."

I, for one, cannot wait for the day when religion is finally banned in public places. It's been too long coming.

In any event, can someone explain why this is not just as bad? Prevaricate away.

"Let there be no compulsion in religion." -Surah al-Baqarah: 256

Dawa doesn't mean "force" or "coerce". You cannot coerce someone to Islam. Dawa is a method of showing someone Islam, teaching them about it, answering their questions if they have any, and explaining what Islam is and is not.

It is also a means of showing Islamic pride.

However, you cannot coerce. Again, from Qur'an:

"... Then ALLAH leaves to go astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the Mighty, the Wise." -Surah Ibrahim: 4

Hmmmm.......I could only see this taking root in more left-leaning schools. Then again I consider my HS to be rather leftist (I live in NJ for crying out loud; we're as blue a state you can get)

"Let there be no compulsion in religion." -Surah al-Baqarah: 256

Dawa doesn't mean "force" or "coerce". You cannot coerce someone to Islam. Dawa is a method of showing someone Islam, teaching them about it, answering their questions if they have any, and explaining what Islam is and is not.

It is also a means of showing Islamic pride.

However, you cannot coerce. Again, from Qur'an:

"... Then ALLAH leaves to go astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the Mighty, the Wise." -Surah Ibrahim: 4

I didn't say they were coercing people. They are however forcing their message on people, often through disengenious means.

You, for example, would be extremely unhappy if christians arranged the type of things listed in that website at your children's schools.

Clearly, Islam is in the prosletyzing business just as much as Christians. The only difference is that they are much, much sneaker about it. (Which is worse if anything, just admit you are trying to convert people).

I didn't say they were coercing people. They are however forcing their message on people, often through disengenious means.

You, for example, would be extremely unhappy if christians arranged the type of things listed in that website at your children's schools.

Clearly, Islam is in the prosletyzing business just as much as Christians. The only difference is that they are much, much sneaker about it. (Which is worse if anything, just admit you are trying to convert people).
Ummm. Lac... Just to clear somthing up...

<snip>I also deeply apologise if anyone actually takes me seriously. I've made it exceedingly clear that under no certain terms am I to be taken seriously unless you know me IRL. Otherwise, you'll only ever get the internet version of me. Maybe someone missed that.
<snip>

Try asking someone who intends to be taken seriously. You might get a better answer.

Ummm. Lac... Just to clear somthing up...



Try asking someone who intends to be taken seriously. You might get a better answer.


Okay, I must have been out of the office the day that memo went round. Thanks. :)

No-one want's to explain the fifth column of Dawa though. :(

You, for example, would be extremely unhappy if christians arranged the type of things listed in that website at your children's schools.


Not necessarily. I think it depends on the context and situation. If it's just a group of Christians outwardly wearing a cross and handing a pamphlet to anyone who asks "Hey ... what's up with the cross?", then I'd have absolutely zero problem with it.

No part of Dawa, however, says one should stand by the door and hand out pamphlets to anyone at any time, regardless if they've expressed curiosity or not. That's a completely different kettle of fish.

Try asking someone who intends to be taken seriously. You might get a better answer.

If I've said anything in my response to the question at hand that is erroneous, you may at any time point it out. However, you will find that thread hijacking is frowned upon around these parts.

*snip*

Aren't the Dawa those little scavanger people on Tatooine?

I didn't know they were such religious fanatics! :eek: :D

Aren't the Dawa those little scavanger people on Tatooine?

I didn't know they were such religious fanatics! :eek: :D

LOL

Not necessarily. I think it depends on the context and situation. If it's just a group of Christians outwardly wearing a cross and handing a pamphlet to anyone who asks "Hey ... what's up with the cross?", then I'd have absolutely zero problem with it.

No part of Dawa, however, says one should stand by the door and hand out pamphlets to anyone at any time, regardless if they've expressed curiosity or not. That's a completely different kettle of fish.

Well, the website goes so far as suggesting that Islam should be included in class projects.

Indeed:

Schools are therefore fertile grounds where the seeds of Islam can be sowed inside the hearts of non-Muslim students. Muslim students should take ample advantage of this opportunity and present to their schoolmates the beautiful beliefs of Islam.

This is every bit as bad as the Xtain zealotry. In fact, it's worse because they are hiding their motive. At least Xtians in this country don't try and hide their motives, whereas the behaviour advocated in this website is reminiscent of old timey Xtain missionaries (do good things for people so you can trick them into having to listen to religion). I think that people who do this stuff should be asked to leave the community.

If they want to prosletyze it should be confined to the mosque.

Well, the website goes so far as suggesting that Islam should be included in class projects.

Well, sure ... why not? Christian subjects have been matters of school projects since schools were first opened in this country by Puritans. Why not do school projects on your faith? Whether you're Muslim, Wiccan, Christian, or Atheist ... why not?

People should not be afraid to talk of their faith.

This is every bit as bad as the Xtain zealotry. In fact, it's worse because they are hiding their motive.

I disagree. The motive is to "present to their schoolmates the beautiful beliefs of Islam". How is that hidden?

If they want to prosletyze it should be confined to the mosque.

Not needed. To proselytize is to "induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith" (dictionary.com) ... the mosque is generally already full of Muslims ... don't have to induce anything. However, dawa is not proselytizing, it is passing along information ... nothing more or less.

Aren't the Dawa those little scavanger people on Tatooine?

Damn ... secret's out ... we've come for your droids.

Well, sure ... why not? Christian subjects have been matters of school projects since schools were first opened in this country by Puritans. Why not do school projects on your faith? Whether you're Muslim, Wiccan, Christian, or Atheist ... why not?

Because it is a mandatory theology lesson for the children. In case you ahdn't noticed, you are not allowed to have mandatory class projects on Christian theology any more.

If it was a class project about the history of Islam (good and bad) I would have no problem, but that is not what they are talking about. Especially in light of the recommendation that muslim parents should review material for "bias". Whether you believe it or not, very bad things have been done in the name of Islam, and I doubt this is what Dawa.net wants to talk about.

People should not be afraid to talk of their faith.

Yeah, that's what the christians say too.


I disagree. The motive is to "present to their schoolmates the beautiful beliefs of Islam". How is that hidden?

Actually, it is to convert people. They are missionaries, they are just not up front about it. I don't think muslim students should have to listen to christian stuff in school, and I don't think christians should have to listen to Islamic theology in school either. And atheists should be free from both.


Not needed. To proselytize is to "induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith" (dictionary.com) ... the mosque is generally already full of Muslims ... don't have to induce anything. However, dawa is not proselytizing, it is passing along information ... nothing more or less.

I know what it means. :)

If you feel the need to learn about islam you should go to a mosque. If you don't go to a mosque you are obviously quite content not hearing about it.
Therefore, all prosletyzation should be confined to those who have already decided to go to the mosque and have consented to listen to it, and just because there is a lack of new faces, this should not be considered carte-blanche to go out and bother people.

There should be no co-opting community functions with the intention of spreading the message of Islam. At the very least it is highly disrespectful. Depending on the audience, the stranger who has to endure the "the beautiful beliefs of Islam" may find them either blasphemous or nonsensical.

Clearly this is an out and out missionary effort.

But that's just not true. Instead of just knocking on your door and bothering you like the Mormons.....

Hey my rock band wrote and plays a song about this. At our last show I don't think anyone understood the lyrics, which is good, because we might have gotten in some trouble....

Cat-Tribe, those hooded figures are "Jawas." Not Dawas. That Sandcrawler sure is a behemoth.

Because it is a mandatory theology lesson for the children. In case you ahdn't noticed, you are not allowed to have mandatory class projects on Christian theology any more.

True! However, you are also allowed to speak of your faith and even pray (provided it is nondisruptive) in public schools.

Whether you believe it or not, very bad things have been done in the name of Islam, and I doubt this is what Dawa.net wants to talk about.

Yes, I know. The point of Dawa, however, is to show that such things are not part of Islam. Nothing in Islam permits the killing of innocents. Osama bin Laden claimed Islamic reasons to justify the murder of thousands of innocents in the World Trade Center, Pennsylvania, and the Pentagon. That doesn't mean something in Islam permits it. I could easily name hundreds of wrongs done in the name of Islam, but that doesn't make it Islamic. The response to Bin Laden's fatwah in the Muslim world was to declare him apostate ... not a Muslim. I can go shoot a bunch of babies and say it was in the name of Jesus ... but does that make it so? Should then Christians spend every waking moment of every day apologising for me? Should they even acknowledge me?

I gotta go with "no" on that one.


Actually, it is to convert people.

You got something to back that up? I mean ... nothing in the site you've sourced says anything about attempting to convert people, but merely to show the people what Islam is about .. to spread information. Your statement above is your assessment of an alleged ulterior motive with no actual factual backup. (yes, I did just say "actual factual" *coff*)

If you feel the need to learn about islam you should go to a mosque. If you don't go to a mosque you are obviously quite content not hearing about it.

Or maybe you're a little shy or nervous and would feel better with a one on one situation or sitting down with a friend. To someone who's never been to a mosque, they can seem a little overwhelming. Mosques are very different than the churches people are used to seeing. Sometimes people are afraid they'll "mess up" and do something to get themselves kicked out.

Depending on the audience, the stranger who has to endure the "the beautiful beliefs of Islam" may find them either blasphemous or nonsensical.

True ... but is PC thuggery really all that necessary? I mean ... "I can't talk about my faith in public because it might offend someone" is just not a good way to go through life.

Clearly this is an out and out missionary effort.

I'm missing the clarity, then.