NationStates Jolt Archive

I bring this up because of the bill going through that might make flag burning illegal.

first off, burning a flag is a extremely patriotc thing to do, yes, believe it or not it shows that you have the power to challenge the government, one of our core principals and freedoms established in the creation of our country, is that the government is not absolute and needs to be defied. It asserts that the right of the people, is greater than that f the government. Our government was established to serve you and me, the people, not to rule us. Our founding fathers did not fight to preserve the flag, they fought to preserve our right to burn it. The government only exists because we the people, allow it to exist, the government would be nothing with out us. If you care deeply enough about your rights as an american citizen, then it is your duty to show that the rights of the people is higher than the government. Flag Burning is a patriotic act done by people who care deeply enough about our freedoms to challenge the government when it becomes a threat to the people. Patriots who love America burn flags.

I know what I'm going to do this 4th of July, whata re you gonna do?

more information can be sought here

http://www.flagburning.org/

On the 4th I am going to respectfully decline from doing so because I have the freedom to choose to or not to do so

I dont personaly like flag burning but what good is the flag if we have to desicrate the meanings behind it by making laws restricting our freedom

Flying the flag is patriotic.
Burning it is a civil right protected under the First Amendment.

...and, as someone who still remembers when it WAS illegal to burn a flag, I can tell you that any such legislation would never pass.

Watch out the flag might fight back and set you on fire. Also i will not be burning a flag becuase as Upward Thrust stated i have the choose not to and I beleave that is is disrespctful.

Yes I know I have spelling problems

If you really want to show your dissent, don't burn a flag, burn the government. :D Disclaimer: I do not really advocate illegal actions. Specially not on the Internet where the governments of the so-called "free world" monitor all traffic.

Just fly the flag upside down.

Isn't that cute, the troll is trying to bait us.

Just fly the flag upside down.

That's a symbol of distress. Not a good idea... that's like driving around with your hazard lights on for no reason.

I'd rather have a burning Bush.


In effigy,of course.

Hey, if you choose not to burn the flag for what ever reason, thats fine too, i just want people to understand that burning a flag is a civil right that not all nations get and that we should NEVER give any rights up to the government or anyone else, because we might never get them back.

I'd rather have a burning Bush.


In effigy,of course.

And you can, if you want... :)

Isn't that cute, the troll is trying to bait us.

Doesnt look like trolling to me. Must just be you.

That's a symbol of distress. Not a good idea... that's like driving around with your hazard lights on for no reason.
Why not? It shows you think the country is in distress due to (insert whatever reason here). That would definitely garner more positivie attention to your views than burning a flag, which does nothing more than piss people off and make them even more hostile to your message.

It's kind of like gay pride parades. Do you honestly think that people will do anything more than label you an immoral freak when you're dressed in drag, with your boyfriend on a leash, riding a giant paper mache penis down Main Street? All it does is hurt your cause and make you look like a fool. Same with flag burning.

I don't see what's immoral about burning a flag.
Nor a queen leading his boyfriend on a leash riding a penis. Though the second one is rather tacky.

Why not? It shows you think the country is in distress due to (insert whatever reason here). That would definitely garner more positive attention to your views than burning a flag, which does nothing more than piss people off and make them even more hostile to your message.

It's kind of like gay pride parades. Do you honestly think that people will do anything more than label you an immoral freak when you're dressed in drag, with your boyfriend on a leash, riding a giant paper mache penis down Main Street? All it does is hurt your cause and make you look like a fool. Same with flag burning.

SPOT-ON COMPARISON!!! Well said!

I have ALWAYS thought that about so-called "radical acts" in general and flag-burning/gay pride parades in specific. It all strikes me as a pathetic and childish plea for attention -- a semi-organized tantrum, if you will. Thank you for expressing it so succinctly and neutrally.

*massive standing ovation*

Why not? It shows you think the country is in distress due to (insert whatever reason here). That would definitely garner more positivie attention to your views than burning a flag, which does nothing more than piss people off and make them even more hostile to your message.

It's kind of like gay pride parades. Do you honestly think that people will do anything more than label you an immoral freak when you're dressed in drag, with your boyfriend on a leash, riding a giant paper mache penis down Main Street? All it does is hurt your cause and make you look like a fool. Same with flag burning.

"The flag should not be dipped to any person or thing, and can be flown upside down only as a distress signal."
http://www.ctssar.org/flag_etiquette.htm

...for example, your position is under attack, your boat is out of fuel, etc.
Flying it upside down as a political statement doesn't quite cut it.

I'm all for anyone parading, so long as no laws are being broken.

You know something, I am a fucking firm proponent of the idea that legal civil disobedience should be extended to demonstrative displays such as the incineration of a symbol to indicate extreme depths of displeasure. Which is to say, I think that burning a piece of cloth should not be an offense. It doesn't hurt anyone, and - assuming that you bought the item - it is your personal property and so yours to do with as you please as long as you do not endanger yourself or others doing it.


That being said, the destruction of your main national symbol is considered by most to be an extreme act. As such, one would hope that people would only piss away their money to purchase said item in order to use it to hold a weenie roast for good reason. Because whether legal or not you know damn well the way the act will be perceived by most around you.


Frankly, to my mind anyone who would elect to shit on their national symbol for no other reason than "well I can" is deserving of nothing more than the complete and utter disgust of all around them. Yeah, you can do it. You can go so far as to buy little paper flags to light your cigars with while you sit in your basement dreaming of the day when finally some chick will play White-House Intern with you all the while feeling a juvenile sense of naughtiness as you giggle at the knowledge that your actions would piss off a lot of people.

Well, congrats. Any asshole can piss off a lot of people. That takes no fucking talent at all.


But better yet, if you have a complaint about something how about you put down the lighter fluid, get off your lazy ass, and go out and get involved. Burning the flag might make you feel like you're doing something (and something pretty fucking useless at that given all you do is marginalize your position), but it's amazing what actually WORKING for a cause can make happen.

Try it sometimes. You just might be fucking suprised at what you can accomplish.

"The flag should not be dipped to any person or thing, and can be flown upside down only as a distress signal."
http://www.ctssar.org/flag_etiquette.htm

...for example, your position is under attack, your boat is out of fuel, etc.
Flying it upside down as a political statement doesn't quite cut it.

I'm all for anyone parading, so long as no laws are being broken.

Uh...none of what you quoted is law. The link itself says "flag etiquette" -- suffice it to say that if you're protesting against a governmental iniquity, the rules of etiquette are irrelevant.

You know something, I am a fucking firm proponent of the idea that legal civil disobedience should be extended to demonstrative displays such as the incineration of a symbol to indicate extreme depths of displeasure. Which is to say, I think that burning a piece of cloth should not be an offense. It doesn't hurt anyone, and - assuming that you bought the item - it is your personal property and so yours to do with as you please as long as you do not endanger yourself or others doing it.


That being said, the destruction of your main national symbol is considered by most to be an extreme act. As such, one would hope that people would only piss away their money to purchase said item in order to use it to hold a weenie roast for good reason. Because whether legal or not you know damn well the way the act will be perceived by most around you.


Frankly, to my mind anyone who would elect to shit on their national symbol for no other reason than "well I can" is deserving of nothing more than the complete and utter disgust of all around them. Yeah, you can do it. You can go so far as to buy little paper flags to light your cigars with while you sit in your basement dreaming of the day when finally some chick will play White-House Intern with you all the while feeling a juvenile sense of naughtiness as you giggle at the knowledge that your actions would piss off a lot of people.

Well, congrats. Any asshole can piss off a lot of people. That takes no fucking talent at all.


But better yet, if you have a complaint about something how about you put down the lighter fluid, get off your lazy ass, and go out and get involved. Burning the flag might make you feel like you're doing something (and something pretty fucking useless at that given all you do is marginalize your position), but it's amazing what actually WORKING for a cause can make happen.

Try it sometimes. You just might be fucking suprised at what you can accomplish.

Seconded!

Remember kids, Fire Safety First.

If you are going to burn anything, make sure you do it in an open space, away from other fuel sources, and with an adequate supply of appropriate fire suppressant on standby. Also avoid excessive use of accelerant, and light the item well away from the body.

The most important thing here is not the law, nor other people's sensitivities, but personal safety. ;)

I feel that if you have a meaning behind it, then protest and burn the flag. Just do so on private property and in a controlled manner. I say private property because I don't want a bunch of people lighting anything on fire in the streets, too dangerous and is not the place for it.

I also feel that burning a flag because you want to is, quite frankly, stupid. What point does it prove? Hey look, I love my freedoms so I am going to show the world that I can disrespect the Nation because I can, yay me.

Also it takes away from the impact of it, when a protester burns a flag its because they have a higher meaning behind it, and to make flag burning something of the norm or of the stupid side of things takes away that protesters freedoms. You lessen their message and indirectly lessong their voice.

I will be celebrating my freedoms this July 4th, most likely with a BBQ, Beer, and fireworks. I may not be a big fan of this government, but I am a huge fan of this Nation. This Nation is the People, not the elected officals.

Remember kids, Fire Safety First.

If you are going to burn anything, make sure you do it in an open space, away from other fuel sources, and with an adequate supply of appropriate fire suppressant on standby. Also avoid excessive use of accelerant, and light the item well away from the body.

The most important thing here is not the law, nor other people's sensitivities, but personal safety. ;)
Actually, dissidents should wrap themselves in the flag and use plenty of accelerant before setting it on fire. People might actually take their cause seriously that way. ;)

You know something, I am a fucking firm proponent of the idea that legal civil disobedience should be extended to demonstrative displays such as the incineration of a symbol to indicate extreme depths of displeasure. Which is to say, I think that burning a piece of cloth should not be an offense. It doesn't hurt anyone, and - assuming that you bought the item - it is your personal property and so yours to do with as you please as long as you do not endanger yourself or others doing it.


That being said, the destruction of your main national symbol is considered by most to be an extreme act. As such, one would hope that people would only piss away their money to purchase said item in order to use it to hold a weenie roast for good reason. Because whether legal or not you know damn well the way the act will be perceived by most around you.


Frankly, to my mind anyone who would elect to shit on their national symbol for no other reason than "well I can" is deserving of nothing more than the complete and utter disgust of all around them. Yeah, you can do it. You can go so far as to buy little paper flags to light your cigars with while you sit in your basement dreaming of the day when finally some chick will play White-House Intern with you all the while feeling a juvenile sense of naughtiness as you giggle at the knowledge that your actions would piss off a lot of people.

Well, congrats. Any asshole can piss off a lot of people. That takes no fucking talent at all.


But better yet, if you have a complaint about something how about you put down the lighter fluid, get off your lazy ass, and go out and get involved. Burning the flag might make you feel like you're doing something (and something pretty fucking useless at that given all you do is marginalize your position), but it's amazing what actually WORKING for a cause can make happen.

Try it sometimes. You just might be fucking suprised at what you can accomplish.

Just because something pisses people off does not mean it is wrong. What better way is there to show contempt for an anti-flag burning law than by actually burning a flag? Flag burning actually shows that one's love for his county runs deeper than symbols, and is a genuine respect for freedom.

You know something, I am a fucking firm proponent of the idea that legal civil disobedience should be extended to demonstrative displays such as the incineration of a symbol to indicate extreme depths of displeasure. Which is to say, I think that burning a piece of cloth should not be an offense. It doesn't hurt anyone, and - assuming that you bought the item - it is your personal property and so yours to do with as you please as long as you do not endanger yourself or others doing it.


That being said, the destruction of your main national symbol is considered by most to be an extreme act. As such, one would hope that people would only piss away their money to purchase said item in order to use it to hold a weenie roast for good reason. Because whether legal or not you know damn well the way the act will be perceived by most around you.


Frankly, to my mind anyone who would elect to shit on their national symbol for no other reason than "well I can" is deserving of nothing more than the complete and utter disgust of all around them. Yeah, you can do it. You can go so far as to buy little paper flags to light your cigars with while you sit in your basement dreaming of the day when finally some chick will play White-House Intern with you all the while feeling a juvenile sense of naughtiness as you giggle at the knowledge that your actions would piss off a lot of people.

Well, congrats. Any asshole can piss off a lot of people. That takes no fucking talent at all.


But better yet, if you have a complaint about something how about you put down the lighter fluid, get off your lazy ass, and go out and get involved. Burning the flag might make you feel like you're doing something (and something pretty fucking useless at that given all you do is marginalize your position), but it's amazing what actually WORKING for a cause can make happen.

Try it sometimes. You just might be fucking suprised at what you can accomplish.


i agree too! And by the way, the page the guy posted on flag ettiquite, that is actually law. It is not simply ettiquite. If you burn the flag for no reason, its just showing that you are a useless dumbass.

Just because something pisses people off does not mean it is wrong. What better way is there to show contempt for an anti-flag burning law than by actually burning a flag? Flag burning actually shows that one's love for his county runs deeper than symbols, and is a genuine respect for freedom.
No. All flag burning does is show people that you lack the brainpower to come up with a coherent message.

It's pretty sad when the only way you can express yourself is by setting something on fire. That in itself says volumes about the individual perpetrating the act.

--snip--
I will be celebrating my freedoms this July 4th, most likely with a BBQ, Beer, and fireworks. I may not be a big fan of this government, but I am a huge fan of this Nation. This Nation is the People, not the elected officals.

AMEN and hallelujah. Well said.

how could it be illegal to burn the flag burning a flag is how a flag that has become worn is retired.

No. All flag burning does is show people that you lack the brainpower to come up with a coherent message.

It's pretty sad when the only way you can express yourself is by setting something on fire. That in itself says volumes about the individual perpetrating the act.

So how would you suggest for the protesters to say that they hate the law against flag burning?

Actually, dissidents should wrap themselves in the flag and use plenty of accelerant before setting it on fire. People might actually take their cause seriously that way. ;)

Absolutely! Religiously committed Vietnamese monks knew how to stage a PROTEST, didn't they? So come on, you pro-life whiners and flag-burning college hippies (go Cartman!), let's see some SMOKE to match that fire in your belly!

Apologies to George Carlin.

Aside from watching fireworks, I won't be doing anyhting to celebrate the 4th. I don't think this country deserves too many displays of love in the state it's in. Fix some things with this place, THEN I'll be happy to show my love for this country in ways other than doing my part to fix what's wrong with it.

I myself don't care if people burn their flag, as long as they make sure nothing else catches on fire(which'll be hard in a public place, but you shouldn't be lighting stuff on fire in public places anyway). It's their flag(hopefully), they can do whatever they want with it. Of course, chances are that it won't be an effective way to show protest, seeing as there probably won't be many people who know about it, those who do probably won't think much of that person's effort, and there aren't that many people burning flags, as far as I know(I think people would pay more attention if, say, a million people burned a million flags at once or something massive like that). It's not going to fix things, but I see no reason to stop them if they're not hurting anything they don't own.

Just because something pisses people off does not mean it is wrong. What better way is there to show contempt for an anti-flag burning law than by actually burning a flag? Flag burning actually shows that one's love for his county runs deeper than symbols, and is a genuine respect for freedom.


I didn't say it was fucking wrong, I said that it was an act that should be reserved for extreme circumstances rather than just done because you can.


Here's a thought. Right now burning the flag MEANS something. It is a display that says to all who see it "Jesus fuck am I pissed off at the government".


You want to make it an average weekend pasttime for the bored pyromaniacs? Well, what happens? It becomes so fucking commonplace that witnessing it becomes meaningless.

"What's that Ethel?"

"Oh, just the morons burning the flags"

"Again? That's the third time this week!"

"YEah, can you imagine if they'd put their time, energy and money to work on the problem instead of doing dumb-assed things like that?"

"*sigh* kids today...."



Right now this act still means something politically. Attitudes like the post's originator will ensure that eventually it means sweet fuck-all. Is that what you want?

Uh...none of what you quoted is law. The link itself says "flag etiquette" -- suffice it to say that if you're protesting against a governmental iniquity, the rules of etiquette are irrelevant.

Didn't say it was.
But it's just like when you read a "real newspaper" (ie: the New York Times) you expect fact, not stuff from the National Enquirer.

Or, you typically don't go around with your hazard lights on all the time.
Or let off flares on the water for no reason.

There is a big difference between making a statement, and crying wolf. You're not protesting with this sort of thing, you're just confusing people.

I'm all for 1st Amendment Rights, peaceful assembly/protest, etc.
But this isn't the way to do it. You want to burn it? Fine.
But don't fly it upside down.

i will be burining american flags by hte hundreds this fourth of july, AMERICA is CONFUSED!!!!

the socialist system will take over the west as it has the east and north

So how would you suggest for the protesters to say that they hate the law against flag burning?
How about having a march, funeral procession style, in which hundreds or thousands of people are carrying flags in the distress signal? Nobody says anything. No noise. Very somber.

People would be confused, if anything. When they ask, you simply tell them that you're protesting the government restricting your freedom of expression.

I guarantee that people will listen to you that way.

--snip--
There is a big difference between making a statement, and crying wolf. You're not protesting with this sort of thing, you're just confusing people.

I'm all for 1st Amendment Rights, peaceful assembly/protest, etc.
But this isn't the way to do it. You want to burn it? Fine.
But don't fly it upside down.

Now THERE's a reasoned argument. I agree. Well said. Thank you.

IF for some reason, anyone feels the need to burn the flag. First think of what it would show the people that have given their lives for that flag. Then I suggest you find another country in which to reside, because that's a symbol of our country....NOT our government. That flag is part of every citizen that resides within our borders, it represents our brothers and sisters that risk their lives every day for us....not for themselves....but for us. If you don't appreciate what that flag stands for, then find another country that you feel better about.

Your situation, whatever it may be, could always be worse. You could have been born into a 3rd world country with a single mother that couldn't feed you, brothers and sisters that you had to watch die of starvation, and a community that would be just as happy to see you dead so that there may be more food for others.

So if you feel the need to burn the flag, go ahead, but remember one thing. If you do burn the flag, the odds are good that someone like me will be pretty close by, and they'll take it and choke the living sh** out of you with it.

I didn't say it was fucking wrong, I said that it was an act that should be reserved for extreme circumstances rather than just done because you can.


Here's a thought. Right now burning the flag MEANS something. It is a display that says to all who see it "Jesus fuck am I pissed off at the government".


You want to make it an average weekend pasttime for the bored pyromaniacs? Well, what happens? It becomes so fucking commonplace that witnessing it becomes meaningless.

"What's that Ethel?"

"Oh, just the morons burning the flags"

"Again? That's the third time this week!"

"YEah, can you imagine if they'd put their time, energy and money to work on the problem instead of doing dumb-assed things like that?"

"*sigh* kids today...."



Right now this act still means something politically. Attitudes like the post's originator will ensure that eventually it means sweet fuck-all. Is that what you want?

It's not a passtime for pyromaniacs! It's a protest for people's rights, and the message won't be forgotten if they keep doing it. Maybe the governmet will decide not to make it illegal, and the protesters will be happy.

How about having a march, funeral procession style, in which hundreds or thousands of people are carrying flags in the distress signal? Nobody says anything. No noise. Very somber.

People would be confused, if anything. When they ask, you simply tell them that you're protesting the government restricting your freedom of expression.

I guarantee that people will listen to you that way.

That is a superior idea.

I doubt you could get people who are that pissed at the government to be somber (let alone silent) for as long as it would take to make an impression.

Terrific idea, though.

How about having a march, funeral procession style, in which hundreds or thousands of people are carrying flags in the distress signal? Nobody says anything. No noise. Very somber.

People would be confused, if anything. When they ask, you simply tell them that you're protesting the government restricting your freedom of expression.

I guarantee that people will listen to you that way.

But they'll listen more if you burn it.

But they'll listen more if you burn it.
No. They won't. Trust me. Most people will instantly label you "anti-American" or something similar and your message will be immediately lost.

No. They won't. Trust me. Most people will instantly label you "anti-American" or something similar and your message will be immediately lost.

You could carry a banner saying "Patriots for Flag-Burning" or something.

IF for some reason, anyone feels the need to burn the flag. First think of what it would show the people that have given their lives for that flag. Then I suggest you find another country in which to reside, because that's a symbol of our country....NOT our government. That flag is part of every citizen that resides within our borders, it represents our brothers and sisters that risk their lives every day for us....not for themselves....but for us. If you don't appreciate what that flag stands for, then find another country that you feel better about.
--snip--


Okay, and here, at the other end of the reasonability spectrum....

The flag is exactly what you said it was, partly. It is a SYMBOL. The actual concepts that veterans died for (and please don't lay that whole "I've got friends and relatives who did this in that war" trip on me, 'cause I do, too, and they'd have supported me burning a flag if it was relevant to my argument) are in no way damaged by such a protest. In fact, they're strengthened (it's been stated why, and by far more eloquent than me, so read the whole thread).

When will reactionaries such as yourself realize that the way to stop someone from doing something you disapprove is to NOT obnoxiously harp on about it like some rabid animal? If you haven't yet learned that spite is a powerful motivator, then you're going to spend a lot of your life irritated. Which is fine, if you like cortisol poisoning and other stress-related problems.

I guarantee you that for every so-called patriot who tries to choke the shit out of a legitimate flag-burner, there'll be someone like me who pulls your reactionary ass off him. That said, if the burner is doing it just to get a rise out of people (which takes no thought or skill whatsoever) -- well, then I'll hold him while you choke and let you know when the cops arrive so we can both bolt.

Fair enough?

Now THERE's a reasoned argument. I agree. Well said. Thank you.

And Thank You!

...now, if we could only convince everyone else. :)

You could carry a banner saying "Patriots for Flag-Burning" or something.
*L* You just don't get it, do you?

Burning the flag causes a visceral reaction in most people. They instantly switch into "what an ungrateful, commie sonofabitch, I want to punch them in the mouth" thinking mode and completely miss your message...no matter what kind of banner or sign you hold up.

No one is going to listen to you when they're busy hating you for what you're doing.

You could carry a banner saying "Patriots for Flag-Burning" or something.

It seems you're missing the point. For a majority of people, an act designed to stir up controversy does exactly that -- only too well. Think of a fictional gay pride parade wherein real sex acts are performed out in the open -- now do you think that will arouse sympathy toward the gay "cause" or rampant anti-gay hysteria?

Now apply that to the way a similar majority feels about the flag. You don't get the kind of attention you need to start a debate, you get knee-jerk reactions and immediately locked minds -- and who can blame them?

One last shot -- think of something, anything, that you love with all of your intrinsic passion. It can even be a person or an animal. Now imagine that, to make a point, someone hurt, killed or destroyed that thing. Is your first reaction to calmly walk up to the perpetrator and ask them why they did it? Hell no! Your first reaction is to tie the son-of-a-bitch up to a chair and beat him repeatedly with a piece of heavy mining equipment (no wait, that's MY first reaction...yours may vary).

Does that make more sense?

This is what I hate. You see people that hate America. You see these people disrespect our government. You see them hating the things our country stands for. Now what would happen if you were in an restricted country? Other countries don't take that kind of crap. But if you hate everything that that flag stands for, I suggest you go to another country, burn their flag, and see what happens.

*L* You just don't get it, do you?

Burning the flag causes a visceral reaction in most people. They instantly switch into "what an ungrateful, commie sonofabitch, I want to punch them in the mouth" thinking mode and completely miss your message...no matter what kind of banner or sign you hold up.

No one is going to listen to you when they're busy hating you for what you're doing.
I agree it is a horrible way to express your opinion … but like you I think what it stands for trumps the symbol itself

This is what I hate. You see people that hate America. You see these people disrespect our government. You see them hating the things our country stands for. Now what would happen if you were in an restricted country? Other countries don't take that kind of crap. But if you hate everything that that flag stands for, I suggest you go to another country, burn their flag, and see what happens.To me there's only one way to reply to that. But I'd get banned for that.

Okay, and here, at the other end of the reasonability spectrum....

The flag is exactly what you said it was, partly. It is a SYMBOL. The actual concepts that veterans died for (and please don't lay that whole "I've got friends and relatives who did this in that war" trip on me, 'cause I do, too, and they'd have supported me burning a flag if it was relevant to my argument) are in no way damaged by such a protest. In fact, they're strengthened (it's been stated why, and by far more eloquent than me, so read the whole thread).

When will reactionaries such as yourself realize that the way to stop someone from doing something you disapprove is to NOT obnoxiously harp on about it like some rabid animal? If you haven't yet learned that spite is a powerful motivator, then you're going to spend a lot of your life irritated. Which is fine, if you like cortisol poisoning and other stress-related problems.

I guarantee you that for every so-called patriot who tries to choke the shit out of a legitimate flag-burner, there'll be someone like me who pulls your reactionary ass off him. That said, if the burner is doing it just to get a rise out of people (which takes no thought or skill whatsoever) -- well, then I'll hold him while you choke and let you know when the cops arrive so we can both bolt.

Fair enough?


Hehe, I've been to Iraq twice in the last 15 yrs for this country...proudly too I might add. My father did 2 tours in Vietnam, proudly. To find a rant like this from a fellow citizen disheartens me to no end. I'm afraid if the future of this country relies on people like you, then we are in big trouble. Just because you don't agree with the government, doesn't give you the right to desicrate the very symbol we have to look up to. Yes, your right, people like you would be there to indeed help out the flag burner, and there'd be people there to help the guy trying to protect the flag. Then it becomes a fued over who is right......the only thing that does is divide the country at a time when we SHOULD be pulling together. You actually wanna do that?

I’m a veteran. 8 years in the Navy as a Hospital Corpsman. Stationed with the 1st Marines for the last 3 ½ years of my service. I did my service to my country and the people that inhabit her voluntarily. I’ve been shot at by enemies of our country, attacked physically and verbally for my service by citizens and non-citizens, and in the end I still have pride in my service, my country, and our citizenry.

I support your right to burn the flag, one of our most beloved symbols, even though I’ve seen it carried into firefights on the shoulder patches of my friends and the vehicles that accompanied them. I support your right to burn the flag even though I have treated fellow Corpsman and Marines wounded under that beloved banner. I support your right to burn the flag even though I have pledged my allegiance to my country under it. I support your right to burn the flag even though I have given salute to it countless times. I support your right to burn the flag even though my oath of service was given under it.

I support your right to burn the flag, but I wish you wouldn’t.

There are better forms of protest, such as voting, getting involved in organization whose cause you support, run for office, or donate time and/or money. Burning a symbol of our nation takes absolutely no intelligence. Getting involved, now that takes intelligence.

Hehe, I've been to Iraq twice in the last 15 yrs for this country...proudly too I might add. My father did 2 tours in Vietnam, proudly. To find a rant like this from a fellow citizen disheartens me to no end. I'm afraid if the future of this country relies on people like you, then we are in big trouble. Just because you don't agree with the government, doesn't give you the right to desicrate the very symbol we have to look up to. Yes, your right, people like you would be there to indeed help out the flag burner, and there'd be people there to help the guy trying to protect the flag. Then it becomes a fued over who is right......the only thing that does is divide the country at a time when we SHOULD be pulling together. You actually wanna do that?Though I'd have to be a lot more pissed at the government than I am right now to burn a flag, I feel it's a legitimate form of protest. I feel it's a very strong one, and would hesitate to use it.
No one has the right to protect an object I bought from whatever use I wish to put it to, provided it's not a hazard to public safety.

BTW, my parents, who both served in the military, my father in Korea, believe it's a legitimate form of protest. As does my brother, who is currently in the army and served in Kuwait.

Hehe, I've been to Iraq twice in the last 15 yrs for this country...proudly too I might add. My father did 2 tours in Vietnam, proudly. To find a rant like this from a fellow citizen disheartens me to no end. I'm afraid if the future of this country relies on people like you, then we are in big trouble. Just because you don't agree with the government, doesn't give you the right to desicrate the very symbol we have to look up to. Yes, your right, people like you would be there to indeed help out the flag burner, and there'd be people there to help the guy trying to protect the flag. Then it becomes a fued over who is right......the only thing that does is divide the country at a time when we SHOULD be pulling together. You actually wanna do that?

Wow.

I even said "please" when I politely asked you not to use military service as an argument and told you why. I offered a polite compromise -- the unified beating of someone who was burning the flag just for kicks as opposed to a legitimate and thought-out protest -- and you just plain ignored it. I am sorry that you can't see the middle ground here.

I thank you for your service, as I thank my friends and relatives who served as well -- those I know and love who served would defend to the death my right to burn the flag in protest so long as my justification was sincere and conscientious. I've never felt compelled to do it, but I know I could do it with a clean conscience should the need ever arise.

As for the country being divided, I've got news for you: flag-burning isn't responsible for that, it is but a symptom. I think that asking one side to simply forget about why it's enraged at the actions of government in a free society just for the sake of "getting along" is just as shitty as a flag-burner who's only motivation is pissing people off.

Thanks again. People like you are the reason I say the Pledge of Allegiance.

People like me are why I always omit "under God".

I love my country!

This is what I hate. You see people that hate America. You see these people disrespect our government. You see them hating the things our country stands for. Now what would happen if you were in an restricted country? Other countries don't take that kind of crap. But if you hate everything that that flag stands for, I suggest you go to another country, burn their flag, and see what happens.
And here you are working twards turning or country into that

I’m a veteran. 8 years in the Navy as a Hospital Corpsman. Stationed with the 1st Marines for the last 3 ½ years of my service. I did my service to my country and the people that inhabit her voluntarily. I’ve been shot at by enemies of our country, attacked physically and verbally for my service by citizens and non-citizens, and in the end I still have pride in my service, my country, and our citizenry.

I support your right to burn the flag, one of our most beloved symbols, even though I’ve seen it carried into firefights on the shoulder patches of my friends and the vehicles that accompanied them. I support your right to burn the flag even though I have treated fellow Corpsman and Marines wounded under that beloved banner. I support your right to burn the flag even though I have pledged my allegiance to my country under it. I support your right to burn the flag even though I have given salute to it countless times. I support your right to burn the flag even though my oath of service was given under it.

I support your right to burn the flag, but I wish you wouldn’t.

There are better forms of protest, such as voting, getting involved in organization whose cause you support, run for office, or donate time and/or money. Burning a symbol of our nation takes absolutely no intelligence. Getting involved, now that takes intelligence.

Now THIS is a reasoned argument. Thank you for your service and thank you for your outstanding words.

Now THIS is a reasoned argument. Thank you for your service and thank you for your outstanding words.

Yes … the always noble “I do not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it” classy :)

SPOT-ON COMPARISON!!! Well said!

I have ALWAYS thought that about so-called "radical acts" in general and flag-burning/gay pride parades in specific. It all strikes me as a pathetic and childish plea for attention -- a semi-organized tantrum, if you will. Thank you for expressing it so succinctly and neutrally.

*massive standing ovation*

i also completely agree with your sentiments.
i would however add,i respect your right to do such immature things such as flag burning,myself find it quite distasteful.
to me that flag does not represent the "government" to me it's represents all the men women and childremn that died for our freedom,back to the revolutionary war.now if we could come up with a flag that represents the government alone....i would gladly burn it..lol :sniper:

Wow.

I even said "please" when I politely asked you not to use military service as an argument and told you why. I offered a polite compromise -- the unified beating of someone who was burning the flag just for kicks as opposed to a legitimate and thought-out protest -- and you just plain ignored it. I am sorry that you can't see the middle ground here.

I thank you for your service, as I thank my friends and relatives who served as well -- those I know and love who served would defend to the death my right to burn the flag in protest so long as my justification was sincere and conscientious. I've never felt compelled to do it, but I know I could do it with a clean conscience should the need ever arise.

As for the country being divided, I've got news for you: flag-burning isn't responsible for that, it is but a symptom. I think that asking one side to simply forget about why it's enraged at the actions of government in a free society just for the sake of "getting along" is just as shitty as a flag-burner who's only motivation is pissing people off.

Thanks again. People like you are the reason I say the Pledge of Allegiance.

People like me are why I always omit "under God".

I love my country!


I fully understood that you wanted me to leave my military service out of the argument. That is why I included it. You may not quite understand exactly why I don't see your point of view. You feel it is your right to desicrate the flag, where I feel it is a complete lack of respect for the people I fought with side by side. Its good that you have your family's support, everyone should, but if I were to walk up to you while you had the flag in hand about to light it and say nicely..."Sir, I've given many years of my life for that flag. I've seen friends die for it. It would mean so much to me if you would reconsider what your about to do." What would be your reaction?

Our founding fathers did not fight to preserve the flag, they fought to preserve our right to burn it.

I bet if you'd mention that to any veteran (or a Founding Father, if one were still alive), they'd piss in your face.

Yes … the always noble “I do not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it” classy :)

I'm no Saint. Because I support the right to burn the flag does not mean that I wouldn't laugh hysterically as the flag burner had the shit kicked out of him by people with less patience and understanding than I. But, then my training would kick in and I'd have to go and patch the poor sap up and send him to the hospital so he could go and do it again some other day.

I wish I had your patience Rackat. Boorah!

I fully understood that you wanted me to leave my military service out of the argument. That is why I included it. You may not quite understand exactly why I don't see your point of view. You feel it is your right to desicrate the flag, where I feel it is a complete lack of respect for the people I fought with side by side. Its good that you have your family's support, everyone should, but if I were to walk up to you while you had the flag in hand about to light it and say nicely..."Sir, I've given many years of my life for that flag. I've seen friends die for it. It would mean so much to me if you would reconsider what your about to do." What would be your reaction?

First of all, as I have REPEATEDLY said, I find the burning of the flag for frivolous or spiteful reasons is reprehensible and I'd be the first one to join your rightful attempted mauling of such an idiot with a pair of Stilson wrenches.

However, were I SO incensed at, say, the VA if my brother (who served in Desert Storm and was at the barracks that were attacked in Dharan and even counted and registered the flag-draped bodies coming back from Iraq, so yeah, I can play that card, too) had needed some kind of surgery or other medical help and was being unjustly refused and I had excercised all my litigational options to the best of my financial ability -- I MIGHT (MIGHT!!!) then decide that a flag-burning was in order to draw attention to the sometimes shameful neglect veterans can receive would be in order.

I'd tell you my story and reflect your military sanctimony back at you with some of my own, fire up my Zippo and politely ask you to stand back. I'd tell you that I am a proud American citizen, but not a blind or deaf one. I'd say that not all military families will lie down and take shitty treatment just because we can't afford (or haven't got the years it takes) to sue. I'd tell you that nobody is listening and I need to make a point that although I've got Union Civil War blood in my veins and my father, grandfather, brother and best friend were war veterans, even THEY agree that burning this flag is as much a symbol of our anger and injustice as the flag itself is a symbol of our pride and dedication.

First of all, as I have REPEATEDLY said, I find the burning of the flag for frivolous or spiteful reasons is reprehensible and I'd be the first one to join your rightful attempted mauling of such an idiot with a pair of Stilson wrenches.

However, were I SO incensed at, say, the VA if my brother (who served in Desert Storm and was at the barracks that were attacked in Dharan and even counted and registered the flag-draped bodies coming back from Iraq, so yeah, I can play that card, too) had needed some kind of surgery or other medical help and was being unjustly refused and I had excercised all my litigational options to the best of my financial ability -- I MIGHT (MIGHT!!!) then decide that a flag-burning was in order to draw attention to the sometimes shameful neglect veterans can receive would be in order.

I'd tell you my story and reflect your military sanctimony back at you with some of my own, fire up my Zippo and politely ask you to stand back. I'd tell you that I am a proud American citizen, but not a blind or deaf one. I'd say that not all military families will lie down and take shitty treatment just because we can't afford (or haven't got the years it takes) to sue. I'd tell you that nobody is listening and I need to make a point that although I've got Union Civil War blood in my veins and my father, grandfather, brother and best friend were war veterans, even THEY agree that burning this flag is as much a symbol of our anger and injustice as the flag itself is a symbol of our pride and dedication.

That's fair enough. My dad wasn't helped as he should have been by the VA before he died. I personally would never burn the flag over it though. So I guess we would both be bloody and burnt. Rackat could patch us up, so we could finish each other off at a later date.

I bet if you'd mention that to any veteran (or a Founding Father, if one were still alive), they'd piss in your face.
My grandfather is a veteran of the korean war and i mentioned it to him one night when i was visiting him, after a long debate he agreed with me that burning the flag was civil liberty not to be tramped upon by the government, he supported flag burning as long as it was a peaceful protest for our civil liberties that he was willing to fight for.

I am glad to see this thread has sparked passionate feelings for and against flag burning, it is important to be a crictical thinker, whether you agree that burning a flag is the best way to protest or not, i think most of use agree that flag burning should be protected since this country was built upon freedom of speech and expression. Someone said that flag burning should only be practiced in the most extreme of circumstances (soemthing along the line of that) what could be more extreme than losing our freedoms? Others said it was "stupid" because most people wouldnt understand, whether or not thats true (it would be hard for them to say since im sure theyve never done it) it is still a simple was to protest that garners much attetion, and curiosity. Thats one of the benefits of burning a flag to protest (or protesting in general) the government, it gets attetion, allowing you to tell your opinions to wider audiences than you would get not burning a flag. And is there any better way to protest a bill outlawing burning flags, than by burning a flag? Is there any easier and simplistic way to show how strongly and passionately you feel about something?

I'm no Saint. Because I support the right to burn the flag does not mean that I wouldn't laugh hysterically as the flag burner had the shit kicked out of him by people with less patience and understanding than I. But, then my training would kick in and I'd have to go and patch the poor sap up and send him to the hospital so he could go and do it again some other day.
I understand .... I personaly detest burning of the flag but i refuse to desicrate what it stands for just to protect a symbol
The freedoms are whats more important

I bet if you'd mention that to any veteran (or a Founding Father, if one were still alive), they'd piss in your face.
There are many vetrans in this thread that have argued with what you have just said

And I beg to differ ... they fought for freedom not a piece of cloth but what that cloth SYMBOLIZED

i bet they would be more upset at the removal of our freedom to protect a THING

That's fair enough. My dad wasn't helped as he should have been by the VA before he died. I personally would never burn the flag over it though. So I guess we would both be bloody and burnt. Rackat could patch us up, so we could finish each other off at a later date.

Fair enough. Agreed. Thanks.

I bet if you'd mention that to any veteran (or a Founding Father, if one were still alive), they'd piss in your face.I know at least two veterans that wouldn't- my parents. And the reason they wouldn't is because they believe in the precepts on which this country was founded. I believe freedom of expression and the right to peacefully protest are two of those. Perhaps you are the one who has a problem with what the flag symbolizes.

*ahem* This fourth of july I will gladly burn a flag not only because I like fire but because of what the politicians did to our country. So many laws were passed supporting inequality, taking away the power to make decisions, and so much more that contradicts our constitution. Personally, that document, in my eyes, sets the rules for what this government should be. But unfortunatly we've disgraced it with the laws we made over petty things when there are bigger decisions to be made. I for one am ANGRY that we've forgotton the constitution, the bill of rights, the declaration of independace, and I'm not old enough to vote, even drive yet! I hope that one day we can set things right.

Does anyone here know what the flag is? It is a symbol representing our country/government. Now, what do you think burning a symbol means? It represents your desire to burn the real thing, i.e., our government. Now, what would happen if, say, our government didn't exist? There'd be nothing to protect your right to do that. It's not a matter of morals or anything like that, it is a matter of respect. You should NOT burn the flag, because you are disrespecting the thing that gives you that right. So, this raises another question, "How can I exercise my right of free speech under the First Amendment?" The answer is simple. Petition your Representitve or Senator to vote against it. It is a very polite way of exercising your right, without the disrespect shown by burning a flag. I hope you've all seen the point I've made. So, by all means, write your congressman today.

Oh, one more thing. I read above aabout a suggestion to fly it upside down instead. That's actually against the law. Don't do that unless your life or property is in dire danger. Other than that, have a pleasant 4th!

Does anyone here know what the flag is? It is a symbol representing our country/government. Now, what do you think burning a symbol means? It represents your desire to burn the real thing, i.e., our government. Now, what would happen if, say, our government didn't exist? There'd be nothing to protect your right to do that. It's not a matter of morals or anything like that, it is a matter of respect. You should NOT burn the flag, because you are disrespecting the thing that gives you that right. So, this raises another question, "How can I exercise my right of free speech under the First Amendment?" The answer is simple. Petition your Representitve or Senator to vote against it. It is a very polite way of exercising your right, without the disrespect shown by burning a flag. I hope you've all seen the point I've made. So, by all means, write your congressman today.

Oh, one more thing. I read above aabout a suggestion to fly it upside down instead. That's actually against the law. Don't do that unless your life or property is in dire danger. Other than that, have a pleasant 4th!
I think there are much better ways to excersize your right to free speach yes but I absolutly adhore any law put restricting what I can choose

You may not quite understand exactly why I don't see your point of view. You feel it is your right to desicrate the flag, where I feel it is a complete lack of respect for the people I fought with side by side. Its good that you have your family's support, everyone should, but if I were to walk up to you while you had the flag in hand about to light it and say nicely..."Sir, I've given many years of my life for that flag. I've seen friends die for it. It would mean so much to me if you would reconsider what your about to do." What would be your reaction?
I guess I'd ask did you bust your ass, and risk your life so other people wouldn't have to and could go living about their lives in a manner which you approve of or which they approve of?

The only point at which I can envision burning a flag is if a flag-burning law is passed; as I take very good care of my flags, my most important being kept in a fireproof safe. (But should one eventually wear out it's sure as hell not going in a garbage can.) But the flag isn't a symbol of the country, it's a symbol of the freedom to be found here, the courage of those who guard that freedom, and their resiliance in that practice. Part of the expression of that resiliance is that when a flag is burned, it's not discarded or thrown away, instead it's consumed and rises to the quintessence beyond terrestrial concerns. Where it is replaced, it's duty is fulfilled, and it's promise renewed.

That's why I can't be mad anytime I see anyone burning an American flag. It's proof of the freedom, and resiliance. That this gift of freedom isn't taken away is proof that it's not just courage, but thoughtfully considered courage, which guards it.

I think there are much better ways to excersize your right to free speach yes but I absolutly adhore any law put restricting what I can choose

Than do what I said and write your congressmen. Just don't dissrespect the symbol of what gives you the right to do so.

Now, what would happen if, say, our government didn't exist? There'd be nothing to protect your right to do that. It's not a matter of morals or anything like that, it is a matter of respect. You should NOT burn the flag, because you are disrespecting the thing that gives you that right.
-snip
the government does NOT give us our right, the government is meant to serve us, not to rule us, read the post moron. The notion that the government gives us rights would imply that we, the people, are supposed to be ruled by the governemnt. Even though the government takes every chance it can get to take away our freedoms because it gives them more power over the people, its a fucking travesty

Wrong. The government serves AND rules us. The point of democracy is that we get to CHOOSE who rules us. Don't miss the post's point, please.

Does anyone here know what the flag is? It is a symbol representing our country/government. Now, what do you think burning a symbol means? It represents your desire to burn the real thing, i.e., our government.

And if people feel that the government is robbing them of their constitutional rights and oppressing them, is it not their right to "burn" it? Certain states even have the right to overthrow the government written into their constitutions. Abraham Lincoln said it was the right of everyman to make armed resistance to an unjust government - burning a flag is mild protest in comparison.

Than do what I said and write your congressmen. Just don't dissrespect the symbol of what gives you the right to do so.
I did not say I was going to (actualy read the second post in this thread I stated I reserve my right not to do such)
But i would if I thought it was actualy going to help them stop desicrating the flag by taking away what that symbol means

And if people feel that the government is robbing them of their constitutional rights and oppressing them, is it not their right to "burn" it? Certain states even have the right to overthrow the government written into their constitutions. Abraham Lincoln said it was the right of everyman to make armed resistance to an unjust government - burning a flag is mild protest in comparison.

I'm going to repeat myself, again. You're just burning that which gives you the right to do that. Why disrespect it, and in effect show that those in the military, and that those who have fought to protect that flag, have done nothing and aren't appreciated?

I just want to know what happened to the days when no one would let the flag hit the ground. Back in the civil war, people risked their lives just to prevent it from touching the ground. And now we want to burn it just to protest the government? I'm sorry, but there's got to be a better way. In fact, why don't we all just wait till the bill fails, and a new pres. is elected. I'm sure all of this feeling will go away.

You could carry a banner saying "Patriots for Flag-Burning" or something.
no, just set up a memorial wreath and in the center of it you put 1st ammendment, RIP.

Very simple, very clear, but not offensively dissmissed from the git-go as your idea would do.

IF for some reason, anyone feels the need to burn the flag. First think of what it would show the people that have given their lives for that flag.


Anyone who dies for a bit of cloth is a certifiable moron and I for one am glad they are gone from the gene pool. What you are showing those who died FOR THE FREDOMS THIS COUNTRY IS SUPOSED TO STAND FOR is that they did not die in vain.

Anyone who dies for a bit of cloth is a certifiable moron and I for one am glad they are gone from the gene pool. What you are showing those who died FOR THE FREDOMS THIS COUNTRY IS SUPOSED TO STAND FOR is that they did not die in vain.

They have died protecting what represents the country. If you are not willing to die to protect the symbol of the country, how can you say you are willing to die for the country itself. All the flag is is a symbol of the freedom we have. I know if my grandfather were alive to see someone burn a flag, he'd shoot them. As would any others in my family who are in the military.

the government does NOT give us our right, the government is meant to serve us, not to rule us, read the post moron. The notion that the government gives us rights would imply that we, the people, are supposed to be ruled by the governemnt. Even though the government takes every chance it can get to take away our freedoms because it gives them more power over the people, its a fucking travesty

The government does not give us any rights, that is correct, but it does protect your rights (like flag-burning). Flag = symbol of the government, burning flag = symbol for burning the government. If there is no government, there is no one to protect your right to complain about how authoritarian and crappy the government is and burn things.

I'm going to repeat myself, again. You're just burning that which gives you the right to do that. Why disrespect it, and in effect show that those in the military, and that those who have fought to protect that flag, have done nothing and aren't appreciated?

I just want to know what happened to the days when no one would let the flag hit the ground. Back in the civil war, people risked their lives just to prevent it from touching the ground. And now we want to burn it just to protest the government? I'm sorry, but there's got to be a better way. In fact, why don't we all just wait till the bill fails, and a new pres. is elected. I'm sure all of this feeling will go away.
you sir, are confused about the government.
And times were so great back in the day of the civil war when racism was rampant, and what not, we should strive to be like it was back then.
And why not wait for a new pres you ask? because its my duty as an american citizen to bitch slap the government when it steps out of line, and try to preserve freedom for all time. If you give the government any power, they will try to keep it, and they WILL use it.

The government does not give us any rights, that is correct, but it does protect your rights (like flag-burning). Flag = symbol of the government, burning flag = symbol for burning the government. If there is no government, there is no one to protect your right to complain about how authoritarian and crappy the government is and burn things.
People protect there rights, not the government. I whole heartedly believe if people give up there rights, the government will take them away, and the only reason the government doesnt take peoples rights, is because the people could take a stand, and say no more, and rise up and overthrow the people in government. Because the government only exists, because the people made, it and allow it to exist.

I fully understood that you wanted me to leave my military service out of the argument. That is why I included it. You may not quite understand exactly why I don't see your point of view. You feel it is your right to desicrate the flag, where I feel it is a complete lack of respect for the people I fought with side by side. Its good that you have your family's support, everyone should, but if I were to walk up to you while you had the flag in hand about to light it and say nicely..."Sir, I've given many years of my life for that flag. I've seen friends die for it. It would mean so much to me if you would reconsider what your about to do." What would be your reaction?


My reaction would be "You and your friends have made the grave mistake of confusing the symbol with what it is to represent. I feel sorry for you all." Then I would continue to exercize my constitutional rights.

Does anyone here know what the flag is? It is a symbol representing our country/government. Now, what do you think burning a symbol means? It represents your desire to burn the real thing, i.e., our government. Now, what would happen if, say, our government didn't exist? There'd be nothing to protect your right to do that.

Nor conversly would there be anything to take it away.

Nor conversly would there be anything to take it away.
There would also be no government to protect you from the angry people nearby who would most likely "express themselves" by stomping your ass into a puddle of goo.

I'll echo Rackat, Texpunditstan, and a few others here.

Having already posted my Congresscritter and both senators to ask them not to vote in favour of the bill banning Flag-Burning, I really, really wish the petty, surface-absorbed arseholes who light up old glory would get a fucking clue.

You do not make traction with most of the people you're trying to by burning the flag, throwing rocks, or behaving like a second-grader who's been denied his toys.

"Sparking Controversy"-yes, but not about the subject of the protest. It just sparks and fuels flag-burning in general, and what fucking arsehole twit the guy on the six-o'clock news is for burning the flag.


If you want to sell something, you don't start off by kicking your potential customer in the balls.

it doesn't work, even if you're selling ball-busting it doesn't work.

this isn't 1968, the majority population isn't unemployed spoiled brats below the age of twenty-one, facing a universal draft and smoking dope to be "edgy" and "Cool".

The people you have to appeal to to change things today are generally in the self-supporting, working, family-types. Those types don't respond favourably to strident, hysterical, shouting and ranting by privelaged kids and street-corner preachers.

What I'm saying, is if you want to make any traction at all, you have to be a grown-up about it, which involves (as Texpunditstan and others have noted) NOT using an approach that was old-news when us middle-aged folk were still little kids.

Flag-burning may have been significant protest in the mid-sixties, but today, it's old-hat and not very effective, or interesting. It doesn't highlight your cause, it just makes you look like a dipshit whose brain has been soaked in THC for too long.

At the beginning of the current round of wars, there was this protester holding a sign on Colby and Hewitt (streets, about four blocks from my house), I walked past him, and his clothing and attitude were not conducive to being taken seriously. I continued on my way without paying more than a moment's notice.

On my way back, I watched him start a fist-fight with someone else. The "Pacifist" threw the first punch.

This kind of hypocrisy isn't good for the Peace Movement, or for those who wish to protest our Government's actions and behaviour with an eye towards doing more than deriving a short bit of fame for it.

Just like WTO, nobody who wasn't already decided was moved by this kind of stupidity-and in the hypothetical of Flag-Burning, the same impact is obvious-if you want to get your message out, you need to find a means that doesn't over-whelm your actual message.

People protect there rights, not the government. I whole heartedly believe if people give up there rights, the government will take them away, and the only reason the government doesnt take peoples rights, is because the people could take a stand, and say no more, and rise up and overthrow the people in government. Because the government only exists, because the people made, it and allow it to exist.
I don't think 'the people' were that active in creating the government. You'll notice that there is always a small group speaking for the rest of a society (whether they really support these elites or not) and the individual citizen doesn't exercise any sort of power.

I'm going to repeat myself, again. You're just burning that which gives you the right to do that.

Honestly, I understand the protest: it is being considered that this "right" be taken away from the people.

Do I think that burning a flag is the best way of protesting flag-burning legislature? No. Someone mentioned all the negative sentiment that flag-burning inspires in the average American: excuse the pun, but publicly burning flags is just going to fuel the outcry to have flag-burning made illegal.


There are better forms of protest, such as voting, getting involved in organization whose cause you support, run for office, or donate time and/or money. Burning a symbol of our nation takes absolutely no intelligence. Getting involved, now that takes intelligence.

This is why I'm involved.

Personally, if they prohibit flag-burning, I'll laugh. Namely because it will be the arrogant, the uncreative and the contrary that are punished for breaking the law. The rest of us have better means to express our dissatisfaction with the system.

I'm not supportive of the system, but honestly, we elect the system, and our complacency is their power over us: you want change in politics, try something political! Get petitions, call your representative/senator, raise public awareness in a way that is not counter-productive to your cause. If you're going to claim you're a patriot, don't purposefully do something that the masses see as unpatriotic.

They have died protecting what represents the country. If you are not willing to die to protect the symbol of the country, how can you say you are willing to die for the country itself. All the flag is is a symbol of the freedom we have. I know if my grandfather were alive to see someone burn a flag, he'd shoot them. As would any others in my family who are in the military.

If your family would comit murder due to an exercize of free speach perhaps it is not the flag burners who are un-American.

One of the few things that would get me to burn a flag would be them making it illegal. At that point I'd burn a stack of them in my front yard.
Burning our flag is disrespectful, but it's no longer a symbol of freedom if the ban goes into effect.

Freedom of speach is patriotic. Flag burning isn't. You want to go exercise your right to speak against the government, get a degree, become a journalist and write about it. You want more immediate attention, buy a big piece of paper, write your message and scream your lungs out that the government sucks. But don't go out and burn the symbol of our county. It's like hunting bald eagles. Sure, it should be protected as your "freedom of speach" but there's symply no positive result from ruining a good thing.

Shooting somebody for burning a flag is also a no-no. The military is sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution, 1st amendment included. And until Texas v Johnson gets overturned, we're all just going to have to shake our heads and wonder at the flag burning rights of the unpatriotic.

And don't tell others that the founding fathers wanted you to have a right burn flags. The founding fathers removed the freedom of speach when it didn't suit them (Alien and Sedition acts), they stole power from where it didn't exist (John Marshall and Marburry v Madison) and they restricted certain immigrants from intering the country because they'd vote for the opposing party (too numerous to count).
The Founding fathers weren't that great of people, so you might not want them backing up your case....especially a freedom of speach one.

I don't think 'the people' were that active in creating the government. You'll notice that there is always a small group speaking for the rest of a society (whether they really support these elites or not) and the individual citizen doesn't exercise any sort of power.

Just because a power is not excercised, does not mean it does not exist. A Tyrant really Can't rule without the consent of the governed. That the consent is so easily obtained is regrettable, but the principle remains.
A recent example can be seen in international affairs with the "Orange Revolution" in the Ukraine.

It tends to take a LOT to move the great body of the people to action, though. And that relies on strong persuasion. You have to sell your ideas to the masses.

This is rarely if ever accomplished by attacking things they value, insulting them, or approaching them with a condescending attitude.

A Question I just noticed after sending my post. "If Congress is the one trying to pass this bill, what's stopping the Supreme Court from overruling it just like they did in Texas v Johnson? Unless it's a constitutional amendment, this sounds like old news...

It's kind of like gay pride parades. Do you honestly think that people will do anything more than label you an immoral freak when you're dressed in drag, with your boyfriend on a leash, riding a giant paper mache penis down Main Street? All it does is hurt your cause and make you look like a fool. Same with flag burning.
ROFMAO