NationStates Jolt Archive

My last babysitter always used to have Ellen on when I dropped off my daughter, and part of the morning ritual was watching her do her little dance before I popped off to work. I love it, because that's exactly the kind of thing I do often...I have a dance for every occassion. The happy dance, the glorious butt-kicking dance, the I-was-right-again dance...the dance of defeat...and so on.

But aside from the dancing, I don't really follow Ellen. I always admired her, though, for coming out at a time when being gay was a show-killer, and I'm glad to see she's back in a bit friendlier times.

A lesbian I met during my French course made a comment one day that it's less acceptable to be lesbian, than it is to be a gay man. I'd kind of always thought the opposite, you know, considering that a lot of straight guys get weirded out at the thought of gay men, but all hot at the thought of lesbians. But she disagreed. Bisexual, that's okay for a woman...buy out and out lesbian? No chance for a man to get in there? No. Gay men can be 'one of the girls'...and are perceived as non-threatening the more 'female' they are...but the stereotypical butch lesbian? She had a theory that men felt threatened by the perceived 'masculinity' of some lesbians, but that 'masculinity' was cancelled out in gay men (not in fact, just in perception).

It got me thinking that Ellen is really the only lesbian I've seen represented in the media that most people are aware of. Yet there are many more portrayals of gay men. Why is this, really?

By the way, if you are of the "I hate/dislike/want to preach against/wish there were no gays" persuasion this thread does not welcome you.

I think the stereotype of the gay man with fashion sense, and the ugly lesbian in her woolen shirts and Birkenstock shoes and ratty hair is in effect.

I think the stereotype of the gay man with fashion sense, and the ugly lesbian in her woolen shirts and Birkenstock shoes and ratty hair is in effect.
I believe that as well. Gay men are "fun" but lesbians have no such label attached to them. There's kind of this undercurrent of thought that lesbians are "angry", yet no one accuses gay men of 'hating women'.

And you see a lot of women being friends with gay men...but not so many men with lesbian friends. Women say that they can relate more to gay men, and it's nice to have a male friend not trying to get into your pants. I guess that doesn't translate the other way around?

I know a lesbian and she doesn't seem "angry" at all.

They aren't talking about reality, just the perception most people have

They aren't talking about reality, just the perception most people have
Exactly.

I know a lesbian and she doesn't seem "angry" at all.
No angrier than I:). If "angry" made you a lesbian, I'd be the UBER lesbian!

No angrier than I:). If "angry" made you a lesbian, I'd be the UBER lesbian!

What should we call "angry" that's correct so that we don't have to use quotation marks?

What should we call "angry" that's correct so that we don't have to use quotation marks?
I'm keeping it in quotation marks in the attempt to make it clear that I'm referring to an imaginary state of being angry. An angry that doesn't actually exist. An angry that is a construct, rather than a real description of an emotional state. "Angry". :D

No angrier than I:). If "angry" made you a lesbian, I'd be the UBER lesbian!

Who has fantasies about a male co-worker...

Maybe the problem is that the first encounter the general population had with lesbians was the man-hating feminist lesbian fringe group. There was never a visible group of gay women-haters.

Maybe the problem is that the first encounter the general population had with lesbians was the man-hating feminist lesbian fringe group. There was never a visible group of gay women-haters.

I have met very few lesbians in real life who did not subscribe to man-hating at some level. While gay men say, "we're gay because we like men", I've heard too many lesbians say they hate men, and that they're glad they are lesbians because they hate men.

Well, I've always wondered how anyone could look at a man's hairy ass and find love, but there it is.

Maybe the problem is that the first encounter the general population had with lesbians was the man-hating feminist lesbian fringe group. There was never a visible group of gay women-haters.
And the other type of lesbian we see are sex mad and will let any man join in if he likes.
If they're not group 2, obviously they are group 1.

I think the stereotype of the gay man with fashion sense, and the ugly lesbian in her woolen shirts and Birkenstock shoes and ratty hair is in effect.


I have a cousin who is gay. HAving spent time with him, I've found that he fits the stereotype. He has a good fasion sense (he's helped keep me from looking the complete fashion retard). I also have a lesbian sister in law. While not the stereotype you posted, she definitle fits some of the stereotype. She is a bit butch, and does not have a fondness for males (last guy to get a grab of her ass had his arm broken. In fact my son and I are some of the few males I know of that she likes). However she has continuously bicked girlfriends that I would classify as hot. As for wardrobe, if they had wollen shirts and birkenstocks, they never wore them when visiting the house(and I mean for extended periods).

So, while the stereotypes may sometimes be true, it is again, like all stereotypes. Deeply flawed.

P.S. I feel that as far as the whole sexuality issue goes. If it feels good, do it. But get your partner's permission first.

Who has fantasies about a male co-worker...
That would certainly make it weirder...

well, you know, i didn't hate guys until i came out as a lesbian
i mean, when you get comments like "you've never had a good man" and "hey, i have a bisexual gf, let's have a threesome", you're just sort of driven to hate men
really, straight guys are bad with lesbians, they sort of can't deal with the fact that lesbians are not interested in them

well, you know, i didn't hate guys until i came out as a lesbian
i mean, when you get comments like "you've never had a good man" and "hey, i have a bisexual gf, let's have a threesome", you're just sort of driven to hate men
really, straight guys are bad with lesbians, they sort of can't deal with the fact that lesbians are not interested in them

So you hate all guys just because some guys made a few stupid comments? :rolleyes:

So you hate all guys just because some guys made a few stupid comments? :rolleyes:

well, not all guys, but i hear the "you've never had a good man" one so often, that it really gets me angry, but i have to admit that this is mostly when it's about internet stuff
but it's a really stupid comment to get every time, like you're not the one who knows what you want
and it's not like it's some guys, especially when it comes to internet communication it's like 8 or 9 out of 10
irl it's a lot easier, cause most people will just never know

And you see a lot of women being friends with gay men...but not so many men with lesbian friends. Women say that they can relate more to gay men, and it's nice to have a male friend not trying to get into your pants. I guess that doesn't translate the other way around?

My best friend is a lesbian, I get along great with her. She has that brutally honest personality that some people hate but I admire, essentially I can talk to her about pretty much anything and she will be honest with me. Plus there is zero sexual tension between us so we get along well as “just friends,” a line that usually utterly disappoints in a heterosexual relationship. She also happens to be a Republican so that is always a plus. :D

well, you know, i didn't hate guys until i came out as a lesbian
i mean, when you get comments like "you've never had a good man" and "hey, i have a bisexual gf, let's have a threesome", you're just sort of driven to hate men
really, straight guys are bad with lesbians, they sort of can't deal with the fact that lesbians are not interested in them


I'm a straight guy and I've never had a problem with lesbians. I haven't been interested in them, and I've never made any of the comments you've given as an example (and nothing close, either).

I have, on the other hand, had a lesbian call me a "breeder" and say that all men, regardless of their behavior, should be eliminated, as they are not needed to perpetuate the human race. I asked her where she got these ideas and she showed me a copy of a monthly newsletter she gets from some militant lesbian organization.

I have since met MANY (but not all) lesbians who solidly believe the same thing.

My best friend is a lesbian, I get along great with her. She has that brutally honest personality that some people hate but I admire, essentially I can talk to her about pretty much anything and she will be honest with me. Plus there is zero sexual tension between us so we get along well as “just friends,” a line that usually utterly disappoints in a heterosexual relationship. She also happens to be a Republican so that is always a plus. :D
Just talking about stereotypes and generalities here...

...and a REPUBLICAN lesbian? ARGGHHH!!!

*snip*
*snip*
So basically, extreme idiots exist on both sides. But I think Blobberia has a good point to make...women rarely go around pressuring gay men to 'try' women...or accuse them of having a bad experience with them (thusly turning them gay). I suspect it's a gender difference...women are comfortable with guys as friends, especially when sexual tension is not an issue. But many (YES I'M TALKING STEREOTYPES) men prefer male friends, and perhaps are not as used to having good friends of the other gender, especially if there is no sexual tension. Maybe it's kind of a let down? I don't know...just spouting here. It just seems to me that the lesbians I know get a lot more in your face 'why are you a lesbian' than the gay men I know who are usually, 'oh, your gay...so, how about those Oilers'?

One of my best friends in Germany was a lesbian.

It was fun to sit on a bench in a German city and ogle women who walked by (and then discuss the finer points).

It was just like being with a guy, which is how I viewed it. She just happened to be in a woman's body.

It never occurred to me to treat her as anything but one of the guys.

One of my best friends in Germany was a lesbian.

It was fun to sit on a bench in a German city and ogle women who walked by (and then discuss the finer points).

It was just like being with a guy, which is how I viewed it. She just happened to be in a woman's body.

It never occurred to me to treat her as anything but one of the guys.

well, i do stuff like that with a friend too, but he can still be stupid about the lesbian thing though, but i just try to ignore it
he's almost proud of having a good friend who is a lesbian

No angrier than I:). If "angry" made you a lesbian, I'd be the UBER lesbian!

Somehow you just got hotter.

well, you know, i didn't hate guys until i came out as a lesbian
i mean, when you get comments like "you've never had a good man" and "hey, i have a bisexual gf, let's have a threesome", you're just sort of driven to hate men
really, straight guys are bad with lesbians, they sort of can't deal with the fact that lesbians are not interested in them

Sounds like you've never had a good man.

So basically, extreme idiots exist on both sides. But I think Blobberia has a good point to make...women rarely go around pressuring gay men to 'try' women...or accuse them of having a bad experience with them (thusly turning them gay). I suspect it's a gender difference...women are comfortable with guys as friends, especially when sexual tension is not an issue. But many (YES I'M TALKING STEREOTYPES) men prefer male friends, and perhaps are not as used to having good friends of the other gender, especially if there is no sexual tension. Maybe it's kind of a let down? I don't know...just spouting here. It just seems to me that the lesbians I know get a lot more in your face 'why are you a lesbian' than the gay men I know who are usually, 'oh, your gay...so, how about those Oilers'?

Or maybe guys just joke around more. Nobody seriously believes that one good night in the sack would 'cure' a lesbian. And if they do, write them off and put them in a group with other unreasonable people like HERPower.

well, i do stuff like that with a friend too, but he can still be stupid about the lesbian thing though, but i just try to ignore it
he's almost proud of having a good friend who is a lesbian

Well, I wasn't stupid about it. The only person who DID have a problem with it was my girlfriend. For some reason, she saw me hanging out with a lesbian as somehow "cheating".

Hey, if it's not cheating when I hang out with a guy having a beer, then it's not cheating if I'm hanging out with a lesbian having a beer.

I think the problem some people have is that to them, everything is about sex.

Life is NOT all about sex. It's about a good glass of beer, a decent sandwich, and a good nap, too. Hanging with your friends.

I think its because lesbians tend to be less accepting of the opposite gender than gay men, therefore they in turn are not accepted well. The lesbians that i have known have mostly had attitudes stated previously in this thread, such as "man hating" etc. Also shows like 'the L word' tend to portray men in a very negative light (so I'm told, I admit a friend told me this and i havent seen any episodes yet, its just come one in the UK so maybe i will soon), causing more hostility, although what I've seen of the Ellen show was good.

Sounds like you've never had a good man.
duh, cause i'm not interested in men
and no man will ever be the right man for me

Sounds like you've never had a good man.
i was drinking when i read that! i coulda choked on diet coke!

Just talking about stereotypes and generalities here...

...and a REPUBLICAN lesbian? ARGGHHH!!!

She used to be as liberal as they come because; apparently that's what lesbian's are "supposed" to be. The bullshit eventually got to her and she essentially turned around with a vengeance. In the past years that she was a Republican she has taken more flack from the Gay community alone then she has taken her entire life for being a lesbian. She is a little bitter at this point. Plus that mere fact has become a breaking point in her relationships; apparently that sort of things isn't tolerated much.

duh, cause i'm not interested in men
and no man will ever be the right man for me

Maybe we can find the right man for Jocabia...

duh, cause i'm not interested in men
and no man will ever be the right man for me

Seriously, I was kidding. I suspect that most people are kidding when they say that to you. I have, in fact, seen what I consider to be substantial proof that your 'condition' is not a choice, is biological, and cannot be reversed. I think your rights as a person should be protected regardless of what sexual preferences you were born with. Don't lump so many men into being unable to understand where you're coming from. It doesn't help your cause.

Maybe we can find the right man for Jocabia...

Are you offering, sweetie?

Maybe we can find the right man for Jocabia...

actually, I already found the right man... Sinuhue.

Life is NOT all about sex. It's about a good glass of beer, a decent sandwich, and a good nap, too. Hanging with your friends.
Insert plate of nachos for sandwich, and we are in agreement!

She used to be as liberal as they come because; apparently that's what lesbian's are "supposed" to be. The bullshit eventually got to her and she essentially turned around with a vengeance. In the past years that she was a Republican she has taken more flack from the Gay community alone then she has taken her entire life for being a lesbian. She is a little bitter at this point. Plus that mere fact has become a breaking point in her relationships; apparently that sort of things isn't tolerated much.
Well um, yeah...if I was part of a 'group' that was specifically targeted as being 'evil' by those who held a certain political belief, you wouldn't find me JOINING their ranks...

But then again...

...I do know a few LGBTT conservatives, so it's not out of the realm of possibility or anything:).

Don't lump so many men into being unable to understand where you're coming from. It doesn't help your cause.
She wasn't. She was pointing out a stereotype, and some of her personal experiences, just like the rest of us. Let's all make a pact now...WE ARE DISCUSSING STEREOTYPES AND GENERALITIES AND WE ALL UNDERSTAND THIS.

And I haven't seen evidence that she has a 'cause'....by the way.

actually, I already found the right man... Sinuhue.
Number two in the 'weird conspiracy of Sinuhue actually being her transgendered brother' book...

She wasn't. She was pointing out a stereotype, and some of her personal experiences, just like the rest of us. Let's all make a pact now...WE ARE DISCUSSING STEREOTYPES AND GENERALITIES AND WE ALL UNDERSTAND THIS.

And I haven't seen evidence that she has a 'cause'....by the way.

She said 9 out of 10 men. I think it's a terrible exaggeration and really misrepresents men, badly. If she wants to make generalizations she can, but don't try and suggest an unreasonable prevelence of idiocy and expect me not to defend my gender (that's right I said it).

Number two in the 'weird conspiracy of Sinuhue actually being her transgendered brother' book...

Hey, if you don't have a penis, then I'm a monkey's uncle.

She said 9 out of 10 men.
8 or 9 out of 10...on the internet. She said that she thought they did this more often on the internet than in RL because it was easier to get away with.


I think it's a terrible exaggeration and really misrepresents men, badly. If she wants to make generalizations she can, but don't try and suggest an unreasonable prevelence of idiocy and expect me not to defend my gender (that's right I said it).
I'm taking it as hyperbole and not an actual statistic. You can take it any way you like. I'll refrain from carrying that sentence to it's logical conclusion :eek:

Hey, if you don't have a penis, then I'm a monkey's uncle.
So...what does your monkey nephew do during the day?

8 or 9 out of 10...on the internet. She said that she thought they did this more often on the internet than in RL because it was easier to get away with.



I'm taking it as hyperbole and not an actual statistic. You can take it any way you like. I'll refrain from carrying that sentence to it's logical conclusion :eek:

More evidence you either have a penis or wish you did.

Forget it...I'm not going to tell you about my toys.

too late

too late
Not really.

well, you know, i didn't hate guys until i came out as a lesbian

-snip-
Let me guess, you're about 17 years old?

I asked her where she got these ideas and she showed me a copy of a monthly newsletter she gets from some militant lesbian organization.
Ah yes, the good ol' SCUM Manifesto!

In the past years that she was a Republican she has taken more flack from the Gay community alone then she has taken her entire life for being a lesbian.
I guess they are understandably bitter about her joining a party that contains some people (note: not all Republicans are theocrats) who would just love to take away all rights that gays have fought for.

Let me guess, you're about 17 years old? Why the age assumption?

Why the age assumption?
Because her "men suck!" attitude sounds like a bunch of immature ranting.

Because her "men suck!" attitude sounds like a bunch of immature ranting.
Age doesn't necessarily mean immaturity...or maturity.

Age doesn't necessarily mean immaturity...or maturity.

We're talking generalisations right?

We're talking generalisations right?
Not when it's suddenly become specific, no.

Anyway...good job everyone, you've managed to run her off. Way to change her mind about men.

It got me thinking that Ellen is really the only lesbian I've seen represented in the media that most people are aware of. Yet there are many more portrayals of gay men. Why is this, really?


Partly, there are some fun fucking steriotypes with gay men that don't seem to have lesbian parallels. Yeah, there are the "butch" ones, but compared to the humour they can get out of flamboyant drag queens? Or where are even the steriotypes of lesbian professions? There are no hairdresser steriotypes, interior design steriotypes or anything like that. andif there is one thing scriptwriters seem to love, it's steriotypes.

And I think that might be part of the issue. It's not that they are less accepted, they are not deemed to differentiate enough from their straight female counterparts in ways that can be steriotyped for TV. Because they ainj't gonna show the sex now are they? No. So what does the public expect to see from a lesbian character that will differentiate her from a straight lady?

That being said, there certainly have been more gay characters on TV than Ellen. She got just got the press because both she AND her character came out at the same time. If she had been straight and just had her character come out, it would have been far less newwsworthy.




Hell, there was a recurring character way back on Roseanne that way gay. There was a bisexual lady lawyer on LA Law. There was Paul's sister on Mad About You that came out of the closet. A lesbian pair of cops as partners on NYPD blue.


The characters are out there, they just seem to fly under the radar more. Perhaps the gay men steriotype makes it easier to deal with the issues in more versatile ways, or with more humerous options. Beats the fuck out of me.

And I think that might be part of the issue. It's not that they are less accepted, they are not deemed to differentiate enough from their straight female counterparts in ways that can be steriotyped for TV. Because they ainj't gonna show the sex now are they? No. So what does the public expect to see from a lesbian character that will differentiate her from a straight lady?


Good point. I think you're onto something...

I myself have many friends that are Gay & Lesbian. I guess I don't see the difference between the treatment between them in my community. Then again I an a Sci Fi & game geek. As a group we seem to have a lot of trouble throwing stones at anyone for an alternative lifestyle since we choose not to fall into mainstream thought ourselves.
I would like to think the feelings are not there because we are focused on what we have in common vs our sexual differences.
Your sexual identy is only one aspect of your personallity. Why do we have to get so caught up with that. Look at me as a person. It matters very little weather I am a straight man unless your interested in hitting on me or I'm hitting on you.

Good point. I think you're onto something...


Well, I think that the issues of intolerance, acceptance, yadd, yadda faced by the homosexual community can be done fairly equally from the male or female perspective. Which is not to say that the Gay and Lesbian communities face exactly the same challenges, but that there is plenty of overlap which can be explored.

And with the lame-assed writing and paper thin scratching of the surface of these issues that most of TV-Land will ever manage to get into these issues, if they can do it with a cross-dressing interior designer with a limp wrist and a lisp, then they think they can sell it better.

Because if they can make some fucking bigot laugh as they are trying to spoonfeed them a message, then maybe - just maybe - they'll forget that normally they would be ofended by the subject.



Which is why Ellen eventually failed. It wasn't that she was fucking gay, it was rather that she pushed to hard to fit an all-gay agenda into her show to the detriment of the overall writing. People watch a fucking sitcom to be amused - not to be preached to,and when a show becomes less funny and more preachy, people go "well, fuck that - what else it on?"

She had a perfect vehicle to tacke this issue with, and she pissed her chance away by going too hard at an issue that most people couldn't quite relate to. And when she whined that it was about homophobia I wanted to tell her to give her fucking head a shake and remember that the show was supposed to be entertainment. Somewhere along the line she forgot that.

It was not unlike the exodus of many viewers from M*A*S*H in the last couple of seasons as the show was perceived to be less about laughs and more about Alan Alda's politics.

I've gay and lesbian people of all stripes: some do their best to follow stereotypes, and others totally defy conventional characterizations of them. I tend to get upset at people who allow themselves to play the role society assigns them, because it plays into the hands of anti-gay bigots. Point is, stereotypes are self-perpetuating - the more we promote them, the more people follow them, and the more people follow them, the more they're promoted.

I've gay and lesbian people of all stripes: some do their best to follow stereotypes, and others totally defy conventional characterizations of them. I tend to get upset at people who allow themselves to play the role society assigns them, because it plays into the hands of anti-gay bigots. Point is, stereotypes are self-perpetuating - the more we promote them, the more people follow them, and the more people follow them, the more they're promoted.


While steriotyping on the whole is - to agree with you - a dumb fucking idea, the fact is that people DO steriotype and if you can use that to your advantage sometimes then you should.

Which is not to say that gays and lesbians in real life should aspire to become Ellen or write their own "Just Jack " one man comedy revue simply becuase their is a community pressure to do so, because if you aren't being yourself then you really are nobody. Just that using the steriotype as a vehicle to reach out to people CAN sometimes be fucking effective.


After all, not ALL steriotypes are negative either. Ever hear black men complaining about the standard perception that they have big dicks? Do you hear much complaining by women about how in sitcom-land it's always the wife that is the smarter one and the glue that holds the family together while the insensitive and moronic husband runs rampant causing social faux-pas and/or gluing his head to the kitchen counter?


Me neither....

I tend to get upset at people who allow themselves to play the role society assigns them, because it plays into the hands of anti-gay bigots.

While not all gay men I've met conform to the stereotypes, a few do. I don't believe for a second that they do so because they want to - I believe that's just their personality.

I, for one, don't see the way they act as offensive. They're just being themselves. If a bigot has a problem with the behavior of a gay man who is living up to the stereotype, the problem is NOT with the gay man. The problem is the bigot.

Several friends of mine are lesbians, i cant say they arent accepted. Actually its quite fun, they know i wont try anything, its very much relaxed and they are goods sports. Maybe because they dont do the über-feminine "help me, i just a poor small woman" routines so many woman use. None of them is man-hating afaik, but they told me that a sizeable percentage is. Not the majority, mind you, but it isnt exactly uncommon.