NationStates Jolt Archive

Having doubts about some element of your faith? Not sharing your family's enthusiasm for church, or perhaps disillusioned with the idea of religion itself?

Give in today! :)

Become an atheist like me, or at least an agnostic.

Don't worry, you can keep your morals just the way they are now!

Benefits include:
- Priceless time freed by not attending religious services
- Fewer feelings of non-specific guilt
- Being taken seriously by more people
- Fewer restrictions on hedonistic behaviour :fluffle:
- And best of all, the secure knowledge that your errors will be consigned to oblivion!

No sign-up required. Reject spirituality, and Live!

Wow! I can see it clearly now. I can see the light!

Don't worry, you can keep your morals just the way they are now!



- Fewer restrictions on hedonistic behaviour


If you kept your morals the way they were, and you believed hedonism was wrong, then wouldn't you maintain the restrictions?



- Being taken seriously by more people

Bah! Humbug! People of faith are taken as seriously as people who lack it. :mad:

Having doubts about some element of your faith? Not sharing your family's enthusiasm for church, or perhaps disillusioned with the idea of religion itself?

Give in today! :)

Become an atheist like me, or at least an agnostic.

Don't worry, you can keep your morals just the way they are now!

Benefits include:
- Priceless time freed by not attending religious services
- Fewer feelings of non-specific guilt
- Being taken seriously by more people
- Fewer restrictions on hedonistic behaviour :fluffle:
- And best of all, the secure knowledge that your errors will be consigned to oblivion!

No sign-up required. Reject spirituality, and Live!

i will pray for you and pray to God that you hange so you wont go to hell.

I'll put in a good word for you with God, I'm sure he'll understand....sorta, kinda, not really. Have fun with your chosen religion, cause that's all that atheism is, another religion.

I'll put in a good word for you with God, I'm sure he'll understand....sorta, kinda, not really. Have fun with your chosen religion, cause that's all that atheism is, another religion.

Actually, it's the lack thereof.

You can't really want to become an athiest I don't think. It is either something which you believe in or you don't. I almost wish I did beleive in god so I would have a sweet afterlife to look forward to but unfortunately the rational side of my brain doesn't buy all that Religious nonsense.

Actually, it's the lack thereof.

No, it's a religion that doesn't worship anything. It's just a roundabout way of saying it's a lack of religion.

No, it's a religion that doesn't worship anything. It's just a roundabout way of saying it's a lack of religion.

Religion is worship. Atheism is lack of worship.

Do you see where this is going?

I'll put in a good word for you with God, I'm sure he'll understand....sorta, kinda, not really. Have fun with your chosen religion, cause that's all that atheism is, another religion.
...or lack thereof.
Afterall, it doesn't have any rituals, any moral obligations, any practices adhered to.
It just means you remain sceptical and refuse to believe things until they are proven.

Yeah, that's what I just said in my last post, I used a roundabout way of saying it's a lack of it. I'm just messing with everyone's heads, don't worry about it.

I hate it when people like this pull shit like this.

Why can't you just believe (or not believe) whatever you want, and quit bashing religion?

I hate it when people like this pull shit like this.

Why can't you just believe (or not believe) whatever you want, and quit bashing religion?

I don't like doing it, but it sure is funny!

Religion is worship. Atheism is lack of worship.

Do you see where this is going?

Look at it this way:

Do you consider 'bald' to be a hair colour?

If so, you can justifiably call atheism a religion.

a·the·ism Audio pronunciation of "atheism" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (th-zm)
n.

1.
1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
2. Godlessness; immorality.


[French athéisme, from athée, atheist, from Greek atheos, godless : a-, without; see a-1 + theos, god; see dhs- in Indo-European Roots.]


Take from that what you will. It seems like a religion to me, but the roots tell a different story.

Yeah, that's what I just said in my last post, I used a roundabout way of saying it's a lack of it. I'm just messing with everyone's heads, don't worry about it.

Yeah, I just caught what you said on the last part of that post.

Still, the term "Atheism" is a lot easier to use than "lacking religion"/"not religious". They all mean the same thing.

Look at it this way:

Do you consider 'bald' to be a hair colour?

If so, you can justifiably call atheism a religion.

Haha. :D

a·the·ism Audio pronunciation of "atheism" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (th-zm)
n.

1.
1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
2. Godlessness; immorality.


[French athéisme, from athée, atheist, from Greek atheos, godless : a-, without; see a-1 + theos, god; see dhs- in Indo-European Roots.]
There is no way I am taking that definition seriously. :rolleyes:

Just cause you're atheist doesn't mean you don't have morals. All of the atheists here seem like very nice people. And you're all right, the definition's relative, like the word fun, or work, or a billion other words.

There is no way I am taking that definition seriously. :rolleyes:

Same here. Who the hell wrote that?

What is this, a sick retaliation of the similar Christian thread? I wasn't aware the atheists were converting....congrats, that will now put you at the level of the Christian converters. [edit: not serious. I don't take this thread that seriously in any way, shape or form; I was under the impression that atheism was something that was decided upon, no pressed upon]

And bald IS a hair colour. My friend has alopecia (sp? I can't spell it 'cos I don't have it, I guess :rolleyes: ) and her DL lists her hair colour as bald. Ergo, it seems to me atheism could be called a religion.....?

But I don't think it is. I think it's just a less casual way of saying that they don't give a damn about the whole deal.

If you kept your morals the way they were, and you believed hedonism was wrong, then wouldn't you maintain the restrictions?

Yes.

But if you were not doing hedonistic things out of fear of reprisal, not out of belief that they were wrong, they you would be free to do these things if you became atheistic.

I hate it when people like this pull shit like this.

Why can't you just believe (or not believe) whatever you want, and quit bashing religion?

This post seems to be a mocking response to http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=425759

Why don't you go flame there too?

i will pray for you and pray to God that you [c]hange so you wont go to hell.
I'd rather run the risk of hell than believe in some god that has never been demonstrated to exist, but who, if he did exist, is such a worthless bastard that he'll send someone to hell because he (God) was too lazy to inform that person of his (God's) existance.

Become an Atheist?

Hmmm.... sorry, I do believe in a god. I don't believe he's anything like the crazystrict God of the Jews/Christians/Muslims, but I still think one exists. I guess I'm deist? Or spiritual? Don't know.

Oh, I have an idea for you! The Atheist Jehovah's Witnesses! It'd be great!

*Knock on their door*
"Would you like to take Jesus out of your life?"

Actually that definition was correct. From www.dictionary.com

a·the·ism Audio pronunciation of "Atheism" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (th-zm)
n.

1.
1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
2. Godlessness; immorality.

I am agnostic. Meaning this:

ag·nos·tic Audio pronunciation of "Agnostic" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (g-nstk)
n.

1.
1. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
2. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

I'm very skeptical as to whether there is a God or not, but since a lot of my friends and family (cousins and the like) are religious, I chose to just go along with the stuff they do if I have to. I find it really boring and kinda dumb, but I don't want to hurt my friends and family, so agnostic I shall remain.

2. Godlessness; immorality.

Saying that you have to be religious to have morals is ridiculous.

Having doubts about some element of your faith? Not sharing your family's enthusiasm for church, or perhaps disillusioned with the idea of religion itself?

Give in today! :)

Become an atheist like me, or at least an agnostic.

Don't worry, you can keep your morals just the way they are now!

Benefits include:
- Priceless time freed by not attending religious services
- Fewer feelings of non-specific guilt
- Being taken seriously by more people
- Fewer restrictions on hedonistic behaviour :fluffle:
- And best of all, the secure knowledge that your errors will be consigned to oblivion!

No sign-up required. Reject spirituality, and Live!

"Humorous. Two thumbs up...just not to Heaven."--S&W Times

...or lack thereof.
Afterall, it doesn't have any rituals, any moral obligations, any practices adhered to.
It just means you remain sceptical and refuse to believe things until they are proven.
Gotta call you on that. Many forms of Shintoism still practiced in Japn have no set moral obligations, required practices or rituals. Many forms do but some don't, they just have recommended practices to obtain some sort of physical goal (ie peace of mind through meditation and the like).

There is no way I am taking that definition seriously. :rolleyes:
Talk to www.dictionary.com

Saying that you have to be religious to have morals is ridiculous.


Technically, you do need a God to have morals. The thing you are referring to is ethics.

Technically, you do need a God to have morals. The thing you are referring to is ethics.

Care to prove it?

i will pray for you and pray to God that you hange so you wont go to hell.

Get out of the church much, Father?

Technically, you do need a God to have morals. The thing you are referring to is ethics.

Okay then. Thanks for clearing that up.

You can't really want to become an athiest I don't think. It is either something which you believe in or you don't. I almost wish I did beleive in god so I would have a sweet afterlife to look forward to but unfortunately the rational side of my brain doesn't buy all that Religious nonsense.

Atheism is as much a faith as any, in fact because it contradicts basic logic, experience, and even feeling it requires far more faith, indeed blind faith, than does the likes of Christianity.

Technically, you do need a God to have morals. The thing you are referring to is ethics.

Ethics--a set of MORAL principles or values. (at least thats what the dictionary said). Seems like they're the same to me.

ag·nos·tic (g-nstk)

1 a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

I suppose one could argue that this is your classic "fence-sitter". I'm ok with that until more information is available.

P.S. Take it easy on each other. A chat board doesn't change people's minds - it only helps to express how we feel more succintly.

ag·nos·tic (g-nstk)
P.S. Take it easy on each other. A chat board doesn't change people's minds - it only helps to express how we feel more succintly.
Amen.... uh what do you say that is like that if you're an athiest :p jk

Atheism is as much a faith as any, in fact because it contradicts basic logic, experience, and even feeling it requires far more faith, indeed blind faith, than does the likes of Christianity.

Believing in things proven through experimentation is less logical than taking the word of somebody who claims that God is telling them what to write? That's new.

Yes.

But if you were not doing hedonistic things out of fear of reprisal, not out of belief that they were wrong, they you would be free to do these things if you became atheistic.



This post seems to be a mocking response to http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=425759

Why don't you go flame there too?


I'd rather run the risk of hell than believe in some god that has never been demonstrated to exist, but who, if he did exist, is such a worthless bastard that he'll send someone to hell because he (God) was too lazy to inform that person of his (God's) existance.

The original poster of that thread is merely trying to help people that said that they needed it, he's not bashing atheism at all. The poster of this thread, however, is ridiculing the fact that he's trying to reach out to people that want to be reached out to. I'm not flaming. I have no problem if he wants to profess his atheism, but do it in an non-flaming manner.

Ethics--a set of MORAL principles or values. (at least thats what the dictionary said). Seems like they're the same to me.

Yeah, I'm looking at my Merriam-Webster dictionary, and it says:

1: A discipline dealing with good and evil and with moral duty
2: Moral principles or practice

Morals and Ethics are indeed one and the same.

Believing in things proven through experimentation is less logical than taking the word of somebody who claims that God is telling them what to write? That's new.


Wow, so God's existence has been disproven through experimentation? That's news to me :rolleyes:

Having doubts about some element of your faith? Not sharing your family's enthusiasm for church, or perhaps disillusioned with the idea of religion itself?

Give in today! :)

Become an atheist like me, or at least an agnostic.

Don't worry, you can keep your morals just the way they are now!

Benefits include:
- Priceless time freed by not attending religious services
- Fewer feelings of non-specific guilt
- Being taken seriously by more people
- Fewer restrictions on ic behaviour :fluffle:
- And best of all, the secure knowledge that your errors will be consigned to oblivion!

No sign-up required. Reject spirituality, and Live!

No thanx. My own common-sense tells me that there must be a god. Not necesary the Christian God, but a God, or Gods, no doubt. Did the big bang creat itself? I highly doubt. If you insist on a universe that created itself, than fine, be stupid. Atheism denys that common sense, and it is scary that so many people will deny. This is not ment to be flaming, or trolling, but Atheism is stupidity.

God bless. :)

Believing in things proven through experimentation is less logical than taking the word of somebody who claims that God is telling them what to write? That's new.
I think I know what he's saying. You can't prove that there is and god and you can't prove that there isn't. Therefore because neither can be proven completly and beyond a shadow of a doubt both take faith. Which takes more is up to your own interpretation but only people who truely do not care or truely don't lean in either direction can be said to lack faith.

Actually, it's the lack thereof.

Not really. Atheism holds that there is no god. Lack of religion would simply have an absence of belief in reference to god.

So, what's the difference between morals and ethics anyway? I've actually always wondered that.

To me, agnosticism is the only logical choice if you want to remove all faith and judge by human reason. Atheism is like Christianity in that it takes faith.

What a mature topic. pffttt.

To me, agnosticism is the only logical choice if you want to remove all faith and judge by human reason. Atheism is like Christianity in that it takes faith.
Even agnosticism takes faith can you prove there is a god of any kind? They all three take faith, religion, agnosticism, and atheism

No thanx. My own common-sense tells me that there must be a god. Not necesary the Christian God, but a God, or Gods, no doubt. Did the big bang creat itself? I highly doubt. If you insist on a universe that created itself, than fine, be stupid. Atheism denys that common sense, and it is scary that so many people will deny. This is not ment to be flaming, or trolling, but Atheism is stupidity.

God bless. :)

Simply saying "this is not flaming" does not make it any less of a flame. ;)

Atheism does not deny common sense, it only goes against your own personal interpretation of what constitutes "common sense".

The original poster of that thread is merely trying to help people that said that they needed it, he's not bashing atheism at all. The poster of this thread, however, is ridiculing the fact that he's trying to reach out to people that want to be reached out to. I'm not flaming. I have no problem if he wants to profess his atheism, but do it in an non-flaming manner.

If this had been your original post on this thread, I would have been fine with it.

However, your first post was flaming. "I hate it when people like this pull shit like this" is a flame, whether intentional or not.

So are people aware that atheism isn't a religion at all but a classification like polytheism or monotheism? There are atheist religions, such as Buddhism.

Even agnosticism takes faith can you prove there is a god of any kind? They all three take faith, religion, agnosticism, and atheism

I am hazy on this. How does not-reaching a decision require faith? :/

Also, Atheism is usually a lot closer to a lack of Faith than an abundance of it. We do not have faith that there is no god, we have no faith in god.

Though, to be fair, that is a big load of nit-picking pointlessness. This whole religion/not religion, Faith/no faith debate is generally without meaning.

Simply saying "this is not flaming" does not make it any less of a flame. ;)

Well, I didn't mean it as flame, but Atheism is stupid. I have studied science, but I do not see the part where it says: 2+2=4, therefore, God does not exist!

Atheism does not deny common sense, it only goes against your own personal interpretation of what constitutes "common sense".

Then, do tell all about how the universe created itself. This should be interesting. :p

No thanx. My own common-sense tells me that there must be a god. Not necesary the Christian God, but a God, or Gods, no doubt. Did the big bang creat itself? I highly doubt. If you insist on a universe that created itself, than fine, be stupid. Atheism denys that common sense, and it is scary that so many people will deny. This is not ment to be flaming, or trolling, but Atheism is stupidity.

God bless. :)
I hate to do this because I am a religious person myself but in the intrest of truth, the univers could simply be timeless and thus was never created and will never be destroyed. Like I said I subscribe to the Genisis acount myself but the other is possible.

(for this and my other posts sorry about any spelling errors. I'm not feeling well and not thinking clearly)

To me, agnosticism is the only logical choice if you want to remove all faith and judge by human reason. Atheism is like Christianity in that it takes faith.

Any religious stance - whether to have it or not - requires faith that you are correct. And, contrary to seemingly popular belief, Creationism and the Big Bang Theory can go in hand if one takes the effort to reconcile them. It's not enough for me personally, but I'm married to someone who has.

Hell, while were at it, why do we even have morals? What are morals? Since there IS no God, no governing force of these morals, what purpouse do they serve? Aren't they purely subjective, then, if there is no force governing morals? Wouldn't they be a pile of bullshit invented by society? Why don't we just start running around, raping the women, murdering the innocent, and taking candy from babies?

Edit: I'm not trying to flame here, I'm just stating a point in a rather intrusive way. ;)

Materialism is a dying philosophy, as I've said before. It presupposes that the universe is eternal which would be necessary, for how could there be an effect without a cause?

No thanx. My own common-sense tells me that there must be a god. Not necesary the Christian God, but a God, or Gods, no doubt. Did the big bang creat itself? I highly doubt. If you insist on a universe that created itself, than fine, be stupid. Atheism denys that common sense, and it is scary that so many people will deny. This is not ment to be flaming, or trolling, but Atheism is stupidity.

God bless. :)

Uh huh. So your position could be summed up in the saying "science only goes so far, then comes God". Unfortunately, that could have been applied to the time when people thought the sun was carried on a chariot and made of coal. Science will continue to explain more and more things thus slowly but surely shrinking the area of a perceived God or Gods. This cycle would inevitably lead to the explanation of everything and the elimination of the need for a God. I say would because of course human nature will not allow us to get that far.

Since there IS no God,

Stop right there. No.

Well, I didn't mean it as flame, but Atheism is stupid. I have studied science, but I do not see the part where it says: 2+2=4, therefore, God does not exist!

Atheism being stupid, or otherwise, is nothing more than personal opinion.
There is little proof that god doesn't exist, but then, it is theoretically impossible to prove that anything doesn't exist. (or so i understand).

However, as there is no evidence at all that god does exist, it balances out quite safely. Evidence-wise anyway. The rest is simply down to personal evaluation. Either you can believe that there is some kind of higher power (guiding or otherwise) or you find that unlikely.

Nothing inherantly stupid about either way.

Well, I didn't mean it as flame, but Atheism is stupid. I have studied science, but I do not see the part where it says: 2+2=4, therefore, God does not exist!



Then, do tell all about how the universe created itself. This should be interesting. :p

That is impossible with current science. However, that does not mean that we will not know exactly how the universe was created eventually.

And why don't you tell us how some "all-powerful being" came into "being" before anything else?

Uh huh. So your position could be summed up in the saying "science only goes so far, then comes God". Unfortunately, that could have been applied to the time when people thought the sun was carried on a chariot and made of coal. Science will continue to explain more and more things thus slowly but surely shrinking the area of a perceived God or Gods. This cycle would inevitably lead to the explanation of everything and the elimination of the need for a God. I say would because of course human nature will not allow us to get that far.


Science is actually helping the case for a transcedent force/life-form IMO :)

Any religious stance - whether to have it or not - requires faith that you are correct. And, contrary to seemingly popular belief, Creationism and the Big Bang Theory can go in hand if one takes the effort to reconcile them. It's not enough for me personally, but I'm married to someone who has.
I belive in what I call theistic-evolution or inspired evolution or what ever you want to call it. I don't take Genisis litterally but as the poetry that it is. Because elsewere in the bible it says the 1k yrs is like a day to God and a day is like 1k yrs, why does the Gen. 6 days have to be six days? Rather I believe that God big banged or whatever the next leading theory is (I don't pretend to understand quantum physics.) and then started and guided evolution. That doesn't make my faith weaker in fact I find that that meshes with scripture better than anyother view I have encountered. (To the dismay of some of my religous peers :rolleyes: )

And why don't you tell us how some "all-powerful being" came into "being" before anything else?


He is eternal, therefore he never came into being for He always was, is, and will be. Unlike our universe according to contemporary cosmology.

Having doubts about some element of your faith? Not sharing your family's enthusiasm for church, or perhaps disillusioned with the idea of religion itself?

Give in today! :)

Become an atheist like me, or at least an agnostic.

Don't worry, you can keep your morals just the way they are now!

Benefits include:
- Priceless time freed by not attending religious services
- Fewer feelings of non-specific guilt
- Being taken seriously by more people
- Fewer restrictions on hedonistic behaviour :fluffle:
- And best of all, the secure knowledge that your errors will be consigned to oblivion!

No sign-up required. Reject spirituality, and Live!


Ohhh Ohhh Yes Join us ... the power of logic compells you!

He is eternal, therefore he never came into being for He always was, is, and will be.

That simply doesn't make sense.

What *made* it? Where did it come from? When did it come from? HOW did it come into being?

Something can't just have "always been around".

Hell, while were at it, why do we even have morals? What are morals? Since there IS no God, no governing force of these morals, what purpouse do they serve? Aren't they purely subjective, then, if there is no force governing morals? Wouldn't they be a pile of bullshit invented by society? Why don't we just start running around, raping the women, murdering the innocent, and taking candy from babies?

As i understand it, Consequences.

We do not abstain from murder purely because of a higher power looking down on us from above, we abstain from stabbing random babies because if we did, we know that there would be unpleasant ramifications. Possibly involving but not limited to unconsensual buttsex. It's built into our society on a fundamental level. We play nice, for our own sakes, on the understanding that by doing so, the favour will be returned and we won't therefor be stabbed in the face either.

Whether God exists or not, life remains pretty much the same.

He is eternal, therefore he never came into being for He always was, is, and will be. Unlike our universe according to contemporary cosmology.
Maybe the universe has been around for ever in a constant expansion contraction cycle

No thanx. My own common-sense tells me that there must be a god. Not necesary the Christian God, but a God, or Gods, no doubt. Did the big bang creat itself? I highly doubt. If you insist on a universe that created itself, than fine, be stupid. Atheism denys that common sense, and it is scary that so many people will deny. This is not ment to be flaming, or trolling, but Atheism is stupidity.

God bless. :)

Why is saying the universe existed forever less sensible than saying God existed forever? At least we know the universe exists.


I'm pretty sure this will be the third time I've posted this, but meh...:

As an observer approaches a massive object, time passes more slowly for the observer approaching than for an outside observer. Given a dense enough object, there is a distance from that object where observed time has slowed to zero.

To an outside observer, the person approaching the massive object would appear to approach the object more and more slowly, and never reach the boundary. To the inside observer, (assuming he could survive the gravitational effects) observed velocity relative to the massive object would never change.

Thus, for someone inside the universe at the time of the Big Bang (where the universe was very, very small and packed tight with all the matter and energy that is currently in the universe, but in a much smaller space) time would be a nonissue. "Before" is a worthless consept because all time extending to infinity that happened "before" took precisely 0 seconds to occur.

Uh huh. So your position could be summed up in the saying "science only goes so far, then comes God". Unfortunately, that could have been applied to the time when people thought the sun was carried on a chariot and made of coal. Science will continue to explain more and more things thus slowly but surely shrinking the area of a perceived God or Gods. This cycle would inevitably lead to the explanation of everything and the elimination of the need for a God. I say would because of course human nature will not allow us to get that far.

Uh-huh. That's right, you keep telling yourself that. "When science proves what's beyond the next star, there will be no need for God" If you want to deny the obvious because technology gave us tanks, and Stealth Planes, that's fine, but I think you will be sadly, sadly dissapointed, come the big day... :rolleyes:

Now this isn't my reason but even if I had no logic to fall back on I still wouldn't want to live in a world where God exists. As close-minded as it would be I would rather stick my head in the sand and go the church on sundays simply because I like the feeling. Now as I said that is not my reason for my faith but I just threw it out there to say that I don't think I would be able to stand being atheist.

Hell, while were at it, why do we even have morals? What are morals? Since there IS no God, no governing force of these morals, what purpouse do they serve? Aren't they purely subjective, then, if there is no force governing morals? Wouldn't they be a pile of bullshit invented by society? Why don't we just start running around, raping the women, murdering the innocent, and taking candy from babies?

Why do we need a god to govern morals? Why can't people govern morals? Are you saying that it is impossible for people to treat each other well without some god telling them to? A lack of god is no reason to rape, murder, or anything else for that matter. I am perfectly capable of examining a situation and determining whether it is the right thing to do for the good of my fellow man on my own without the help from some godly figure. Simply doing things to benefit society is enough for me.

Uh-huh. That's right, you keep telling yourself that. "When science proves what's beyond the next star, there will be no need for God" If you want to deny the obvious because technology gave us tanks, and Stealth Planes, that's fine, but I think you will be sadly, sadly dissapointed, come the big day... :rolleyes:

Whatever, because that "big day" is never coming.

:rolleyes:

Why is saying the universe existed forever less sensible than saying God existed forever? At least we know the universe exists.


I'm pretty sure this will be the third time I've posted this, but meh...:

As an observer approaches a massive object, time passes more slowly for the observer approaching than for an outside observer. Given a dense enough object, there is a distance from that object where observed time has slowed to zero.

To an outside observer, the person approaching the massive object would appear to approach the object more and more slowly, and never reach the boundary. To the inside observer, (assuming he could survive the gravitational effects) observed velocity relative to the massive object would never change.

Thus, for someone inside the universe at the time of the Big Bang (where the universe was very, very small and packed tight with all the matter and energy that is currently in the universe, but in a much smaller space) time would be a nonissue. "Before" is a worthless consept because all time extending to infinity that happened "before" took precisely 0 seconds to occur.
Dang that is by far the best argument I have ever heard for atheism. Dosn't sway me but I have a higher opinion of you than I would have

Uh-huh. That's right, you keep telling yourself that. "When science proves what's beyond the next star, there will be no need for God" If you want to deny the obvious because technology gave us tanks, and Stealth Planes, that's fine, but I think you will be sadly, sadly dissapointed, come the big day... :rolleyes:
Or I wont even relize to be disapointed being dead forever and all

That simply doesn't make sense.

What *made* it? Where did it come from? When did it come from? HOW did it come into being?

Something can't just have "always been around".



Oh but it can. It goes against human logic but that is because our mind is finite. In our minds, there must be a beginning. It's a difficult concept to grasp, but it is true. Modern science relies on the concept of eternity to support their theory of universal origins.

Why do we need a god to govern morals? Why can't people govern morals? Are you saying that it is impossible for people to treat each other well without some god telling them to? A lack of god is no reason to rape, murder, or anything else for that matter. I am perfectly capable of examining a situation and determining whether it is the right thing to do for the good of my fellow man on my own without the help from some godly figure. Simply doing things to benefit society is enough for me.

You deserve this.

*hands you a cookie*

No thanx. My own common-sense tells me that there must be a god. Not necesary the Christian God, but a God, or Gods, no doubt. Did the big bang creat itself? I highly doubt. If you insist on a universe that created itself, than fine, be stupid. Atheism denys that common sense, and it is scary that so many people will deny. This is not ment to be flaming, or trolling, but Atheism is stupidity.

God bless. :)
Religion is stupidity. Just because I say it doesn't make it true, just like when you say "Atheism is stupidity". Second of all, who's to say the big bang didn't create itself? There was a website I saw which doesn't seem to exist anymore which made a very convincing argument that the big bang happened simply because it had to. If you like I can give more detail in a later post. Third of all, calling people stupid without evidence to back up your claim is flaming. Again, saying it isn't doesn't make that true. Finally, why are you saying "God bless" to a bunch of atheists?

Whatever, because that "big day" is never coming.

:rolleyes:

It's not obvious to you that people must die someday?

Why do we need a god to govern morals? Why can't people govern morals? Are you saying that it is impossible for people to treat each other well without some god telling them to? A lack of god is no reason to rape, murder, or anything else for that matter. I am perfectly capable of examining a situation and determining whether it is the right thing to do for the good of my fellow man on my own without the help from some godly figure. Simply doing things to benefit society is enough for me.

But how, though? How are we able to know right from wrong? How are we so different from wild animals that we can deduce right from wrong? Animals kill without compassion. How do we know right from wrong, is it simply planted in our brains by society? Did the first humans wake up one day and say "you know what, Killing = bad?" I kind of doubt that.

Uh-huh. That's right, you keep telling yourself that. "When science proves what's beyond the next star, there will be no need for God" If you want to deny the obvious because technology gave us tanks, and Stealth Planes, that's fine, but I think you will be sadly, sadly dissapointed, come the big day... :rolleyes:

It's not very effective to try to persuade somebody with something they don't believe in.

I hate it when people like this pull shit like this.

Why can't you just believe (or not believe) whatever you want, and quit bashing religion?

He's not bashing religion, he's just saying that if you're having doubts about your faith you should consider becoming an atheist, or at least an agnostic. :) I, for one, found the ad highly amusing and entertaining. Don't be so uptight about it.

It's not obvious to you that people must die someday?

In an "apocalypse"? I think not.

It's not obvious to you that people must die someday?
But it is not so obvious that there is anything after so we really wont have any time to "regret" anything

Religion is stupidity. Just because I say it doesn't make it true, just like when you say "Atheism is stupidity".

If it isn't obvious to you that there has to be a God, than it is stupidity. I'm sorry you cannot see your errors.

Second of all, who's to say the big bang didn't create itself? There was a website I saw which doesn't seem to exist anymore which made a very convincing argument that the big bang happened simply because it had to. If you like I can give more detail in a later post.

It happened because it had to? Dude, where is the proof for the Big Bang? Why do you believe it?

Finally, why are you saying "God bless" to a bunch of atheists?

Cus you need it more than I do.

Why do we need a god to govern morals? Why can't people govern morals? Are you saying that it is impossible for people to treat each other well without some god telling them to? A lack of god is no reason to rape, murder, or anything else for that matter. I am perfectly capable of examining a situation and determining whether it is the right thing to do for the good of my fellow man on my own without the help from some godly figure. Simply doing things to benefit society is enough for me.


It's possible to be ethical if there is no God, but would it be logical? The only barrier would be the punishments inflicted by an angry society on the criminal, however if one could get away with what they did, why not do it? After all, if atheism is correct, then we are naught but animals and thus have no purpose other than to gratify our primal urges. Your claim to "do good things for humanity because it makes me feel good" would have no logical basis, as there are things that are wicked yet bring about pleasure greater than that little serotonin release. Good and Righteous living would be meaningless.

That simply doesn't make sense.

What *made* it? Where did it come from? When did it come from? HOW did it come into being?

Something can't just have "always been around".

A God would be a meta-physical agent, and therefore not subject to our physical laws.

Physical matter, on the other hand, is subject to our laws, and as matter cannot create/ destroy itself, something/ someone must have at least set the universe in motion.

Many of my brothers on this form mean well but they really arn't protraying Christianity well. The Christians I know and hang around with wouldn't berate you personally or say things like "won't you be sadly dissapointed on the big day". That kinda thing isn't what Christianity is about really. It's about respecting and loving your fellow man. Perhaps even though you don't agree with it you could respect it for what it's trying to do. The true message of Christianity is love even though it gets perverted out of proportion by the "figureheads" of the religion today.

If it isn't obvious to you that there has to be a God, than it is stupidity. I'm sorry you cannot see your errors.



As I am sorry that you can not see yours

Such is life ... you beleive what you want to, I am not obligated to

It's not obvious to you that people must die someday?

Yes. And when that happens my brain will shut down and I, meaning the complex human organism, will cease to exist. After which my body will decompose and my atoms will be recycled into other things (Scientists have predicted that each of us possess about 100 of Shakespeares atoms (A Short History of Nearly Everything by Bill Bryson). All a human is is an arrangement of atoms, nothing more (not even a soul *gasp*). And in case you couldn't tell, I don't believe in an afterlife.

Your claim to "do good things for humanity because it makes me feel good" would have no logical basis

You're kidding, right? Doing good things for humanity helps us as a species. It's logical in itself.

If there were a god(in the judaic, monopolistic sense)

presumably he wouldn't worship a god other than himself
and again presumably wouldn't actually worship himself.

Wouldn't that mean that if there were a god then he must be an atheist?

After all if one were to accept on faith that there was a god,
which apparently is an important part of belief
then such a god wouldn't have to have faith in himself
knowing as he would that it was a fact that he existed and what powers
he had
then god himself would have neither faith nor belief in any god
ergo that god would by definition be an atheist

Do christians actually believe in an atheist as their creator?

And to get back to the subject
if atheism would be good enough for a god
then surely its good enough for mere mortals



----------------------------------------------------------------

Disclosure:

So there isn't any doubt where I am coming from.
I'm an atheist, its not a religion - it is by definition the absence of any such belief system and carries absolutely no common shared values.
Being an atheist is much the same as describing oneself as human
without going into extra and unnecessary detail about the origin of your
family or your country.

VIP
or
very important point
My own view is that religion in general is a bad thing.
While it doesn't necessarily stop thought, discussion, investigation and
the general betterment of humanity;
in many specific circumstances it has done just that and its effect on
individuals and groups is like a lead weight tied to a person trying to cross a lake.
It doesn't make the achievement of the goal impossible but it sure as heck makes it harder.
That is of course at its mildest.
At different levels it can encourage the weighted swimmer to believe that
the goal is to tread water in the middle of the lake and at the very
worst drives the ambition in people to try to drown as many other
weighted and non weighted swimmers as possible.
(possibly because the weights they use are the wrong shape or size or tied to the wrong part of the anatomy and of course anyone without a weight
would be a heretic or worse an atheist)

In summary the world would not be perfect without religion but it certainly
wouldn't be any worse.

I hope I haven't upset anyone but there are too many people in the world today who seem to feel that religion, if not for them, is at least;
on balance a good thing.
To me it is on a par with disease, famine and war.

I stand by everybodies right to believe in what they want to believe in
but don't expect to be respected if you happen to believe in the big beard in the sky or the little invisible man who lives in the refrigerator and whose job it is to turn on the light when you open the door.

My brothers on this form mean well but they really arn't protraying Christianity well. The Christians I know and hang around with wouldn't berate you personally or say things like "won't you be sadly dissapointed on the big day". That kinda thing isn't what Christianity is about really. It's about respecting and loving your fellow man. Perhaps even though you don't agree with it you could respect it for what it's trying to do. The true message of Christianity is love even though it gets perverted out of proportion by the "figureheads" of the religion today.
You say that ... and maybe you know some nice people but if 80 percent of what we are confronted with is this sort of thing ( and my past lies in christianity as well) it is hard to see otherwise
But we understand ... just understand that we get a bit anoyed at times as well (which is natural) and say things in ways we dont mean to as well

My brothers on this form mean well but they really arn't protraying Christianity well. The Christians I know and hang around with wouldn't berate you personally or say things like "won't you be sadly dissapointed on the big day". That kinda thing isn't what Christianity is about really. It's about respecting and loving your fellow man. Perhaps even though you don't agree with it you could respect it for what it's trying to do. The true message of Christianity is love even though it gets perverted out of proportion by the "figureheads" of the religion today.

*hands you a cookie*

That's better.

My brothers on this form mean well but they really arn't protraying Christianity well. The Christians I know and hang around with wouldn't berate you personally or say things like "won't you be sadly dissapointed on the big day". That kinda thing isn't what Christianity is about really. It's about respecting and loving your fellow man. Perhaps even though you don't agree with it you could respect it for what it's trying to do. The true message of Christianity is love even though it gets perverted out of proportion by the "figureheads" of the religion today.

Great post. Even though I disagree with and have never met most on this forum, I love them as my fellow human.

Christians really do forget about our real purpose when focusing on the trivial bullcrap.

You're kidding, right? Doing good things for humanity helps us as a species. It's logical in itself.

Under this logic, you'd see dogs helping dogs as a species, cats doing good things for other cats, wolves not ripping each other apart for control of the pack. After all, it is logic. :p

My brothers on this form mean well but they really arn't protraying Christianity well. The Christians I know and hang around with wouldn't berate you personally or say things like "won't you be sadly dissapointed on the big day". That kinda thing isn't what Christianity is about really. It's about respecting and loving your fellow man. Perhaps even though you don't agree with it you could respect it for what it's trying to do. The true message of Christianity is love even though it gets perverted out of proportion by the "figureheads" of the religion today.



2 Timothy 4:1-2 - I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to (B)judge the living and the dead, and by His (C)appearing and His kingdom:
2preach (D)the word; be ready in season and out of season; (E)reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great (F)patience and instruction.



We as Christians are not to sit idly by as others hasten to their eternal demise. Christianity is an active religion, not a passive one.

Under this logic, you'd see dogs helping dogs as a species, cats doing good things for other cats, wolves not ripping each other apart for control of the pack. After all, it is logic. :p

Funny :rolleyes:.

Remember that the thought processes of animals aren't nearly as developed as the thought processes of humans.

But how, though? How are we able to know right from wrong? How are we so different from wild animals that we can deduce right from wrong? Animals kill without compassion. How do we know right from wrong, is it simply planted in our brains by society? Did the first humans wake up one day and say "you know what, Killing = bad?" I kind of doubt that.

Animals kill out of a need to kill, not because they feel like it.

Animals kill because they need to eat. Just because you buy your hamburger at McDonald's instead of slaughtering the cow yourself doesn't mean someone didn't have to kill it. I bet they killed it without compassion.

Animals kill because they feel threatened. If you had a choice to kill or be killed, you have to make a decision. Instinct kicks in and you fight back. It's basic animal nature, and even a god can't save you from it.

It's possible to be ethical if there is no God, but would it be logical? The only barrier would be the punishments inflicted by an angry society on the criminal, however if one could get away with what they did, why not do it? After all, if atheism is correct, then we are naught but animals and thus have no purpose other than to gratify our primal urges. Your claim to "do good things for humanity because it makes me feel good" would have no logical basis, as there are things that are wicked yet bring about pleasure greater than that little serotonin release. Good and Righteous living would be meaningless.

And doing humanity for God makes sense? Most of the people I've met do it because they think it buys them brownie points for the Afterlife. Secondly, it is logical to lay down laws in order to form into a productive society. After all, chaos is bad for a population.

Many of my brothers on this form mean well but they really arn't protraying Christianity well. The Christians I know and hang around with wouldn't berate you personally or say things like "won't you be sadly dissapointed on the big day". That kinda thing isn't what Christianity is about really. It's about respecting and loving your fellow man. Perhaps even though you don't agree with it you could respect it for what it's trying to do. The true message of Christianity is love even though it gets perverted out of proportion by the "figureheads" of the religion today.

You're commendable and a good reminder that fundamentalists, on either side, never represent the majority.

2 Timothy 4:1-2 - I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to (B)judge the living and the dead, and by His (C)appearing and His kingdom:
2preach (D)the word; be ready in season and out of season; (E)reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great (F)patience and instruction.



We as Christians are not to sit idly by as others hasten to their eternal demise. Christianity is an active religion, not a passive one.

That's true, but he's saying that we shouldn't be judging/ berating others, because that's not our purpose. The only one that can judge is God.

Just wondering, what religion are you?

If there were a god(in the judaic, monopolistic sense)

presumably he wouldn't worship a god other than himself
and again presumably wouldn't actually worship himself.

Wouldn't that mean that if there were a god then he must be an atheist?

After all if one were to accept on faith that there was a god,
which apparently is an important part of belief
then such a god wouldn't have to have faith in himself
knowing as he would that it was a fact that he existed and what powers
he had
then god himself would have neither faith nor belief in any god
ergo that god would by definition be an atheist

Do christians actually believe in an atheist as their creator?

And to get back to the subject
if atheism would be good enough for a god
then surely its good enough for mere mortals


Peter once wrote (and I paraphrase) that the Holy Spirit gave us three gifts: faith, hope and love but the greatest is love because faith and hope will pass away (in heaven there will be no need to hope because we will have gotten what we hope for and no need for faith because we will know).
Drawing from his wisdom I will say that God needs not faith because he knows himself. I believe that my computer exists not on faith but on knowlage. I'm not an atheist in regards to my computer and by the same manner God is not an atheist in regards to himself.

replying to something from earlier in the forum: whether or not atheism is a religion. the word has plenty of definitions, but according to this one (from webster's) " a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith" atheism is very much a religion.

if one is to objectively examine the facts of the matter, one would conclude that there is no logical evidence for god OR against him. neither atheism nor conventional religion can be deduced rationally, and as such, they both require faith. you can't know for a fact that there isn't a god. any argument you can think of could be countered with a new definition of god.

-brendan vox, your agnostic friend.

Animals kill out of a need to kill, not because they feel like it.

Animals kill because they need to eat. Just because you buy your hamburger at McDonald's instead of slaughtering the cow yourself doesn't mean someone didn't have to kill it. I bet they killed it without compassion.

Animals kill because they feel threatened. If you had a choice to kill or be killed, you have to make a decision. Instinct kicks in and you fight back. It's basic animal nature, and even a god can't save you from it.

Exactly.

All a human is is an arrangement of atoms, nothing more (not even a soul *gasp*). And in case you couldn't tell, I don't believe in an afterlife.


Haven't you kept up with recent experiments which support the existence of a conscience?

If it isn't obvious to you that there has to be a God, than it is stupidity. I'm sorry you cannot see your errors.

It happened because it had to? Dude, where is the proof for the Big Bang? Why do you believe it?

Cus you need it more than I do.
Since reason doesn't seem to have an effect on you, I'll try a more religious approach. If I understand correctly, Jesus is very holy partly because he's the son of god, but also, he stood up for his beliefs in the face of Roman persecution. I think I can be confident in assuming that you probably believe that Jesus went to heaven and his persecutors went to hell, or something like that. Well, the atheists in this thread believe that there is not a god, and you are attempting to persecute them, to the extent that it is possible in this medium. Regardless of belief in god or lack thereof, whatever god that may or may not exist will probably place more value on morality and standing up for your personal beliefs than believing in god and flaming atheists. Also, it is obvious to me that the Christian god must not exist, but I won't bother explaining to you because you'll just criticize it without considering it first.

Under this logic, you'd see dogs helping dogs as a species, cats doing good things for other cats, wolves not ripping each other apart for control of the pack. After all, it is logic. :p
They do help eachother in the small scale ... hunting togeather and such ... things like apes care for orphaned youngins same with cats and dogs

They just dont have the ability to make a concious decision one way or another ... they are not really self aware.

We are unique ... and we are uniquly capable of helping eachother

Haven't you kept up with recent experiments which support the existence of a conscience?
No do tell ... please share

That's true, but he's saying that we shouldn't be judging/ berating others, because that's not our purpose. The only one that can judge is God.



Our purpose is to lead others to salvation. We do not judge, we merely inform others of God's judgement and persuade them to repent.


Just wondering, what religion are you?


New Testament Christian, you know, the type before Catholicism took root.

2 Timothy 4:1-2 - I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to (B)judge the living and the dead, and by His (C)appearing and His kingdom:
2preach (D)the word; be ready in season and out of season; (E)reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great (F)patience and instruction.



We as Christians are not to sit idly by as others hasten to their eternal demise. Christianity is an active religion, not a passive one.
and proverbs says that a soft word spoken cools an angry temper. I'm not saying to sit on you hands that's the last thing I'm saying. I'll debate with non-believers on my death bed if I get the chance. If you don't do it in a respectable manner and remember that these people are human beings that Jesus commanded you to love then you will turn them farther and father away from the Way. Remember "with PATIENCE and instruction."

No do tell ... please share


Gah, I wish I could remember the name of the researchers currently involved in it! Does anyone listen to Coast-to-Coast AM with Art Bell? He interviewed several scientists who conducted research in this field. If anyone could give me the names, I would be greatly appreciative.

replying to something from earlier in the forum: whether or not atheism is a religion. the word has plenty of definitions, but according to this one (from webster's) " a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith" atheism is very much a religion.

if one is to objectively examine the facts of the matter, one would conclude that there is no logical evidence for god OR against him. neither atheism nor conventional religion can be deduced rationally, and as such, they both require faith. you can't know for a fact that there isn't a god. any argument you can think of could be countered with a new definition of god.

-brendan vox, your agnostic friend.
No soft atheism is the absence of faith (hard atheism is faith based) "I dont know so I will not have a belief unless I get more info"
soft atheism is not about believing there IS no god but rather just not enough faith to believe there is one

Under this logic, you'd see dogs helping dogs as a species, cats doing good things for other cats, wolves not ripping each other apart for control of the pack. After all, it is logic. :p

Humans are a far more advanced and intelligent species.

and proverbs says that a soft word spoken cools an angry temper. I'm not saying to sit on you hands that's the last thing I'm saying. I'll debate with non-believers on my death bed if I get the chance. If you don't do it in a respectable manner and remember that these people are human beings that Jesus commanded you to love then you will turn them farther and father away from the Way. Remember "with PATIENCE and instruction."


True, I try to be as kind as possible when dealing with people of other mindsets.

True, I try to be as kind as possible when dealing with people of other mindsets.

Doesn't look like you're trying very hard.

Our purpose is to lead others to salvation. We do not judge, we merely inform others of God's judgement and persuade them to repent.





New Testament Christian, you know, the type before Catholicism took root.

That's true, but the ones who said "you'll be sorry on judgement day" are judging. And that's wrong.

Same here. I dislike what catholocism stands for.

Haven't you kept up with recent experiments which support the existence of a conscience?

A conscience is nothing more than what we think is right and wrong. That does not imply a soul (in the conventional sense anyway). It just implies that based on social standards we have deduced what is better or worse in a given situation. Sorry to be vauge but so is psycology at this point.

Oh but it can. It goes against human logic but that is because our mind is finite. In our minds, there must be a beginning. It's a difficult concept to grasp, but it is true. Modern science relies on the concept of eternity to support their theory of universal origins.
So, why does it make sense for God to have existed eternaly but not for the Universe? After all, the Universe also escapes the grasp of human logic, requiring very complex mathematics to really try to explain it.

Since time started along with the Universe, the Universe is eternal, although not infinite. I know it's hard to understand, but at least there's some evidence to support that.

Humans are a far more advanced and intelligent species.

Why? Evolution?

How are we the only ones capable of such a moral standard?

I'm picturing Tactical Grace's first post coming from a cheesy car salesman with a good tooth and greased black hair.

Humans are a far more advanced and intelligent species.


If we invented the concept of morality, then it would have no premise outside of humanity and thus the only reason to embrace it would be to expedite the expansion and survival of the species. There would be no reason for those who didn't feel like adhering to the law to do so if they could get away with crime.

So, why does it make sense for God to have existed eternaly but not for the Universe? After all, the Universe also escapes the grasp of human logic, requiring very complex mathematics to really try to explain it.

Since time started along with the Universe, the Universe is eternal, although not infinite. I know it's hard to understand, but at least there's some evidence to support that.


Universal eternity was disproven long ago, therefore only those who acknowledge the existence of the metaphysical get that luxury :D

To Weremooseland: Thanks. I don't think you're an idiot either :rolleyes:

But how, though? How are we able to know right from wrong? How are we so different from wild animals that we can deduce right from wrong? Animals kill without compassion. How do we know right from wrong, is it simply planted in our brains by society? Did the first humans wake up one day and say "you know what, Killing = bad?" I kind of doubt that.

If the word "evolution" causes you to go into gibbering histerics and begin chewing on a carpet, read no further.

The consept of morality is a product of social evolution.

A society which holds certain ideas in high regard (composed of people who hold those ideas in high regard) will pass those ideas down to their offspring.

However, as I'm sure you can see in any community, ideas change from person to person. The only difference between ideological and biological evolution is that ideological "mutations" can occur to an individual, rather than only being a trait of projeny.

Over time, societies that uphold ideas, and indoctrinate them into their children, that help that society preserve itself will be preserved.

Societies that uphold ideas that do not help them preserve themselves will not be preserved.

Survival of the fittest occurs, and the society with an ethical code that makes it more successful will win out.

Bear in mind that ethical codes do not always have to be "good". Xenophobia, for instance, can be very useful to a society in certain situations, and therefore be preserved.

This sort of indoctrination is most present among humans for the same reason as all learned behavior is most present among humans. We have language, so we can pass ideas down from generation to generation much more easily than animals can.

This doesn't mean that animals don't do it, though, especially animals that live in societies. Communal grooming in monkeys is one example; the behaviour of helping remove parasites from the other animal makes that society more successful, so it is naturally selected over a society that does not.

(See what you can learn while not chewing on a carpet?)

That's true, but the ones who said "you'll be sorry on judgement day" are judging. And that's wrong.

Same here. I dislike what catholocism stands for.
Specialy sense that does not scare most of us

We figure if there truly is an all loving deity that he will be more fair then to care wether we have a belief in him or not

If he is truly all loving he will recognize that my lack of belief is because every cell in my body screams that most of todays religions are wrong and most of the described christian god goes against my morals (salvation based on faith)

He will understand my problems with christianity in my past and will truly be all loving and unserstand I am doing the absolute best with what I am given

True, I try to be as kind as possible when dealing with people of other mindsets.
Ok I don't know if you were the one I had in mind when I wrote that. (I didn't catch the name of the post that set that off). I'm just trying to show the compassionate side of our religion, after all that is the more important side. Never in the NT do you see someone converted because of a harsh word. (don't get me wrong they do have their place but not if you're trying to win people over, better to save them for hypocrites in our own ranks like the apostles do i.e. paul before the sanhedrin)

A conscience is nothing more than what we think is right and wrong. That does not imply a soul (in the conventional sense anyway). It just implies that based on social standards we have deduced what is better or worse in a given situation. Sorry to be vauge but so is psycology at this point.


Sorry, I meant consciousness.

Humans are a far more advanced and intelligent species.

Advanced, perhaps, but "intelligent" could be highly debated.

Why? Evolution?

How are we the only ones capable of such a moral standard?

That I cannot explain. I am not an expert, but I can look at the world around me and the research of others to see what makes sense. It has been scientifically proven that humans are more advanced than other species. The reason is irrelevant.

Under this logic, you'd see dogs helping dogs as a species, cats doing good things for other cats, wolves not ripping each other apart for control of the pack. After all, it is logic. :p


Dogs do help each other if in a pack, once theyve sorted out their status
relative to one another, they are after all fundamentally a pack animal.
They can and do co-operate and they can and do look out for each other.

Cats are not so much pack animals but anyone who has ever had more than
one will tell you they don't tend to try and kill each other.

Wolves are also pack animals and therefore also co-operate and help each other.

As for what possible reason human's would be decent to each other in the
face of probable short term loss and uncertain long term gain
try the prisoner's dilemma and see who does best
the people who cooperate or the people who don't.


----------------------------------------------------------------

Religion is in and of itself a bad thing, good people can be religious
and being good people can minimize or mitigate the bad effects of whatever
religion they believe in.
That does not make it a good thing or a worthwhile thing.

People do have the right to believe in whatever they want to believe in,
no-one has the right to have their belief respected.

I'm sure many people here don't respect my opinion
which is fine by me as I know no one and therefore thus far
have no reason to respect anyone elses.

I have known decent religious people in my life but my belief is that
they would have been decent people even without the religion
and while I don't want to hurt anyone the concept that religion is
worthwhile, good or deserving of respect is just plain wrongheaded.

Ok I don't know if you were the one I had in mind when I wrote that. (I didn't catch the name of the post that set that off). I'm just trying to show the compassionate side of our religion, after all that is the more important side. Never in the NT do you see someone converted because of a harsh word. (don't get me wrong they do have their place but not if you're trying to win people over, better to save them for hypocrites in our own ranks like the apostles do i.e. paul before the sanhedrin)
And yet god of the OT felt perfectly fine whiping cities or humanity (almost) off the face of the plannet ... makes a nice little direction change in the NT

(he had no problem directly reviling himself in the OT ... wonder why in the NT and beyond he all the sudden (or his folowers) decided that the reason he does not show himself is because of violating free will
He had no problem doing so before NT)

Under this logic, you'd see dogs helping dogs as a species, cats doing good things for other cats, wolves not ripping each other apart for control of the pack. After all, it is logic. :p
Actually, nice of you to mention it. Animals do organize in well stratified groups which rules they respect. Wolves don't rip each other apart, they fight for control of the pack and when one realizes he lost he offers his neck to the winner, and is not killed, the winner acknowledges this signal of respect and then the pack follows the new leader, including the defeated one.

Cats have looser societies, but they also have rules of conviviality. Orcas, sharks, lions, and, of course, apes; all of them follow rules to live better, hunt better, survive better, which sometimes seem harsh from our human point of view, but that have served them well for millions of years. We really aren't that separate from animals.

If we invented the concept of morality, then it would have no premise outside of humanity and thus the only reason to embrace it would be to expedite the expansion and survival of the species. There would be no reason for those who didn't feel like adhering to the law to do so if they could get away with crime.

Well see in America, we have this organization called the police.

Why is it assumed that without a god the world would go crazy and have no order? There are civilizations that get along quite well without the influence of a god.

Actually, nice of you to mention it. Animals do organize in well stratified groups which rules they respect. Wolves don't rip each other apart, they fight for control of the pack and when one realizes he lost he offers his neck to the winner, and is not killed, the winner acknowledges this signal of respect and then the pack follows the new leader, including the defeated one.

Cats have looser societies, but they also have rules of conviviality. Orcas, sharks, lions, and, of course, apes; all of them follow rules to live better, hunt better, survive better, which sometimes seem harsh from our human point of view, but that have served them well for millions of years. We really aren't that separate from animals.
I was trying to say that but did not do it as well lol

Well see in America, we have this organization called the police.

Why is it assumed that without a god the world would go crazy and have no order? There are civilizations that get along quite well without the influence of a god.


Hence, why I added "if they could get away with the crime"

If we invented the concept of morality, then it would have no premise outside of humanity and thus the only reason to embrace it would be to expedite the expansion and survival of the species. There would be no reason for those who didn't feel like adhering to the law to do so if they could get away with crime.


Read up about evolution and consider this

In society A) The trait of empathy and morality does not exist, and so the society declines into chaos, eventually either ending in the creation of a moral system by those who remain, or destroying itself.

In society B) The traits do exist and so the society stays stable, grows in population, and advances in terms of technology.

No magic men in the sky involved, just a bit of common sense.

And yet god of the OT felt perfectly fine whiping cities or humanity (almost) off the face of the plannet ... makes a nice little direction change in the NT

(he had no problem directly reviling himself in the OT ... wonder why in the NT and beyond he all the sudden (or his folowers) decided that the reason he does not show himself is because of violating free will
He had no problem doing so before NT)



Those cities were very deserving of the judgement passed onto them. If you research it, you will find that the cities God nuked or had Israel conquer were actually some of the worst places of their time.

Universal eternity was disproven long ago, therefore only those who acknowledge the existence of the metaphysical get that luxury :D
As I said, the Universe is eternal, meaning that it has existed for all time, but time itself had a start.

Hence, why I added "if they could get away with the crime"

But they can't, so your point is moot anyway.

To Weremooseland: Thanks. I don't think you're an idiot either :rolleyes:



If the word "evolution" causes you to go into gibbering histerics and begin chewing on a carpet, read no further.

The consept of morality is a product of social evolution.

A society which holds certain ideas in high regard (composed of people who hold those ideas in high regard) will pass those ideas down to their offspring.

However, as I'm sure you can see in any community, ideas change from person to person. The only difference between ideological and biological evolution is that ideological "mutations" can occur to an individual, rather than only being a trait of projeny.

Over time, societies that uphold ideas, and indoctrinate them into their children, that help that society preserve itself will be preserved.

Societies that uphold ideas that do not help them preserve themselves will not be preserved.

Survival of the fittest occurs, and the society with an ethical code that makes it more successful will win out.

Bear in mind that ethical codes do not always have to be "good". Xenophobia, for instance, can be very useful to a society in certain situations, and therefore be preserved.

This sort of indoctrination is most present among humans for the same reason as all learned behavior is most present among humans. We have language, so we can pass ideas down from generation to generation much more easily than animals can.

This doesn't mean that animals don't do it, though, especially animals that live in societies. Communal grooming in monkeys is one example; the behaviour of helping remove parasites from the other animal makes that society more successful, so it is naturally selected over a society that does not.

(See what you can learn while not chewing on a carpet?)

I think you're missing the point. What spawned the concept of morality? It can't have come up genetically, as morality isn't a gene to be passed down from parent to offsrping. Ideas can be passed down, because of language. But what started the concept of morality? Morality cannot have invented itself. Monkeys grooming others isn't a good example of morality, it's an example of monkeys grooming themselves. They still fight, kill, and harm one another. What is it in us that makes us feel like shit when we do such things?

Read up about evolution and consider this

In society A) The trait of empathy and morality does not exist, and so the society declines into chaos, eventually either ending in the creation of a moral system by those who remain, or destroying itself.

In society B) The traits do exist and so the society stays stable, grows in population, and advances in terms of technology.

No magic men in the sky involved, just a bit of common sense.



Yes, but once you realize that those are merely traits with no absolute foundation, then what is to stop you from committing crimes you can get away with? After all, there would be no consequences other than maybe some guilt...and, assuming there is no God, that guilt would be baseless and a mere annoyance that would gradually diminish into nothing.

But they can't, so your point is moot anyway.


People don't get away with crimes? Tell that to all the Bush-bashers on this forum ;)

Specialy sense that does not scare most of us

We figure if there truly is an all loving deity that he will be more fair then to care wether we have a belief in him or not

If he is truly all loving he will recognize that my lack of belief is because every cell in my body screams that most of todays religions are wrong and most of the described christian god goes against my morals (salvation based on faith)

He will understand my problems with christianity in my past and will truly be all loving and unserstand I am doing the absolute best with what I am given
Ok I'm gonna do my best not to make anyone mad, so here goes...
God is loving in that he made a way for us at terrible cost to himself. We follow that way by believing in him and doing our honest best to follow his example. I believe that baptism is essential but only because like I said we should follow his example as christians. God is also loving in that you can always come to or come back to him. It's a covenant relationship like a marrage. If you are faithful to God he is faithful to you. However like in a marrage if you desert him he won't force you to come back. The bible does say that the wages of sin is death and the only way to be pure of sin is through Jesus (if anyone wants me to explain about people who lived before Jesus I will, just ask). I really don't know if there will be any special cases but I can't in good faith tell you that the scriptures say there will be.

I think the ball is in our courts as Christians as far as ya'll souls go, and we're dropping that ball. As a result many might find themselves toasting their toes on judgement day who didn't think they would before.

Yes, but once you realize that those are merely traits with no absolute foundation, then what is to stop you from committing crimes you can get away with? After all, there would be no consequences other than maybe some guilt...and, assuming there is no God, that guilt would be baseless and a mere annoyance that would gradually diminish into nothing.


But see, there would be consequences. If you kill my brother, you better believe I'd be coming after you. Thus, you don't kill him for fear of being killed yourself. What goes around comes around even without a god.

Yes, but once you realize that those are merely traits with no absolute foundation, then what is to stop you from committing crimes you can get away with? After all, there would be no consequences other than maybe some guilt...and, assuming there is no God, that guilt would be baseless and a mere annoyance that would gradually diminish into nothing.

Its a learned trait. humanity is habitual, we won't change the way we think unless we have to to survive (Which is what happens in the course of dehumanization). I would argue that people do regularly discover the fact that there is no basis for morality, most of them then harm another, there are a whole lot of them in our jails.

Those cities were very deserving of the judgement passed onto them. If you research it, you will find that the cities God nuked or had Israel conquer were actually some of the worst places of their time.
So if enough of us who do not follow your god or are corrupt get in one area god is going to come smite us? :rolleyes:
I thought god waited till we passed on to judge us you know cause that free will he suposedly gave us could make us change our mind later

I think you're missing the point. What spawned the concept of morality? It can't have come up genetically, as morality isn't a gene to be passed down from parent to offsrping. Ideas can be passed down, because of language. But what started the concept of morality? Morality cannot have invented itself. Monkeys grooming others isn't a good example of morality, it's an example of monkeys grooming themselves. They still fight, kill, and harm one another. What is it in us that makes us feel like shit when we do such things?
Have you seen a dog teaching her puppies when they're playing and one bites too hard or keeps fighting after the other surrendered? What makes you think animals aren't capable of feeling guilt or other emotions? After all, the only way we know that someone is feeling something is by them telling us, but we can't go inside their heads.

Mother chimps act sad when their kid dies, they can be angry at another ape, hold a grudge, be depressed, etc. Why couldn't they feel guilt or something else?

I think you're missing the point. What spawned the concept of morality? It can't have come up genetically, as morality isn't a gene to be passed down from parent to offsrping. Ideas can be passed down, because of language. But what started the concept of morality? Morality cannot have invented itself. Monkeys grooming others isn't a good example of morality, it's an example of monkeys grooming themselves. They still fight, kill, and harm one another. What is it in us that makes us feel like shit when we do such things?

Morality does not need to be derived from religion. I grow tired of having this conversation. I've been Christian, atheist, agnostic, and what I am now and my morals have not changed, nor were my morals taught to me because I was Christian. But let's start with some of the more simple aspects of society:

1) No stealing. Seems pretty logical to me that if you don't want your stuff nicked, you'd better leave other people's things alone. Look, no gods involved in that.
2) Killing. See #1. There's also more of an advantage to working together as a group/society and killing people is a bit detrimental to cooperation.
3) No fighting/arson/other crimes - Pretty much, my argument's going to fall to leaving people alone so they won't do it to you. It's rather late and I'm just slightly tired, so I don't want to come up with examples.

I think you're missing the point. What spawned the concept of morality? It can't have come up genetically, as morality isn't a gene to be passed down from parent to offsrping. Ideas can be passed down, because of language. But what started the concept of morality? Morality cannot have invented itself. Monkeys grooming others isn't a good example of morality, it's an example of monkeys grooming themselves. They still fight, kill, and harm one another. What is it in us that makes us feel like shit when we do such things?
Just because evolution was used as an example doesn't mean your thinking should be restricted to genetics. What probably happened is some guy found out that if he gave a little extra meat to his friend when he was sick, his friend would in turn do the same, and they would both survive a little longer to reproduce. While morality may not be genetic, personality could be, and so his more moral personality was passed along to more children. He also would have told them his little meat trick so they would have a better chance at surviving. It makes perfect evolutionary sense.

I think you're missing the point. What spawned the concept of morality? It can't have come up genetically, as morality isn't a gene to be passed down from parent to offsrping. Ideas can be passed down, because of language. But what started the concept of morality? Morality cannot have invented itself. Monkeys grooming others isn't a good example of morality, it's an example of monkeys grooming themselves. They still fight, kill, and harm one another. What is it in us that makes us feel like shit when we do such things?

Sub indoctrinated social behavior for morality.

I think you're missing the point. What spawned the concept of indoctrinated social behavior? It can't have come up genetically, as indoctrinated social behavior isn't a gene to be passed down from parent to offsrping. Ideas can be passed down, because of language. But what started the concept of indoctrinated social behavior? Indoctrinated social behavior cannot have invented itself. Monkeys grooming others isn't a good example of indoctrinated social behavior, it's an example of monkeys grooming themselves. They still fight, kill, and harm one another. What is it in us that makes us feel like shit when we do such things?

As I said, the Universe is eternal, meaning that it has existed for all time, but time itself had a start.


Yes, time started with the creation of the universe and the end of time will be when the universe ceases to be. Anything outside of that would be referred to as eternity, the realm not subject to the principles of time.

People don't get away with crimes? Tell that to all the Bush-bashers on this forum ;)

They wouldn't get away with crimes any more or less than they do now. Sorry I worded that poorly the first time. The point is that god is not needed to control crime. If god was all that was necessary, a police force and the prisons down the street from my house would be unnecessary.

And yet god of the OT felt perfectly fine whiping cities or humanity (almost) off the face of the plannet ... makes a nice little direction change in the NT

(he had no problem directly reviling himself in the OT ... wonder why in the NT and beyond he all the sudden (or his folowers) decided that the reason he does not show himself is because of violating free will
He had no problem doing so before NT)
Our life as it is right now isn't as important to God as our afterlife is. The best answer I have for that is "different stroke for different folks". The world is more civil then it was in OT times therefore a lighter hand can be used. Those people who were wiped out by God had an oppertunity to repent in Hades at the preaching of Jesus between his death and resurection. If I get to heaven I'm not gonna care what happened here and I don't think those people will either.

They wouldn't get away with crimes any more or less than they do now. Sorry I worded that poorly the first time. The point is that god is not needed to control crime. If god was all that was necessary, a police force and the prisons down the street from my house would be unnecessary.


Not necessarily, his justice will be dished out on the Judgement Day, so, until then, we will need a police force to regulate ourselves and those who choose not to follow the law. His days of unleashing his righteous wrath upon sinners while they are still alive are over (sadly).

I think the ball is in our courts as Christians as far as ya'll souls go, and we're dropping that ball. As a result many might find themselves toasting their toes on judgement day who didn't think they would before.
All very nice and good, but it's all an opinion, not fact. There is no external way to corroborate or test this, so it will remain simply something you believe to be true, but not necessarily the truth. This doesn't mean that what you believe is false, as that can not be tested either.

What about altruism? Kindness without personal reward. All creatures are kind to their own benefit but people are the only ones stupid or good enough to be self-sacrificing to their own detriment. Such a trait is not too uncommon in humanity and does not have any benefit because kindness to those who you will never benefit from only decreases survivability. Ultimately though if we saw someone dying as we were walking down the street we would stop and help them whether we benefit or not. Besides without religion there is nothing awaiting us but death. I may be choosing ignorance but a life as a soulless biological robot, nothing more than an accident, a piece of technology so complex to know the futility of its own existance. That is a life I would not want and that selfish and stupid reason is why I am loyal to God, however I am working on better reasons for myself.

Ok I'm gonna do my best not to make anyone mad, so here goes...
God is loving in that he made a way for us at terrible cost to himself. We follow that way by believing in him and doing our honest best to follow his example. I believe that baptism is essential but only because like I said we should follow his example as christians. God is also loving in that you can always come to or come back to him. It's a covenant relationship like a marrage. If you are faithful to God he is faithful to you. However like in a marrage if you desert him he won't force you to come back. The bible does say that the wages of sin is death and the only way to be pure of sin is through Jesus (if anyone wants me to explain about people who lived before Jesus I will, just ask). I really don't know if there will be any special cases but I can't in good faith tell you that the scriptures say there will be.

Doesn't sound too all-loving to me, sounds like a good business plan. "Hey, ya'll need to beleive in me or you'll toast in hell. Don't beleive? Well, you can come back whenever"

If any God loved me he would accept that I try to do good things for people, and that I care about others, and that my beleiving in him was unimportant to my being a good person. Frankly, any God who thinks otherwise had better send me to hell, cause I want nothing to do with him.

I think the ball is in our courts as Christians as far as ya'll souls go, and we're dropping that ball. As a result many might find themselves toasting their toes on judgement day who didn't think they would before.

And most of us would be just fine if you left us to roast on our own, without adding your nagging and nonsense to it. I'm gonna toast. Good deal. Now leave me alone to toast in peace.

Thought came upon me while reading through this:

The word "moral" itself means "having to do with right or wrong" if the English languages was in anyway at all logical, that would mean that "morals" would be things based on right and wrong, calling someone "immoral" would then mean that that one person had nothing to do with right or wrong (this seems irrational...). But then again, morality is a code of rules dealing with right and wrong, and its adjective also seems to be "immoral"...

So ethics is just better word because it avoids all this confusion.

What about altruism? Kindness without personal reward. All creatures are kind to their own benefit but people are the only ones stupid or good enough to be self-sacrificing to their own detriment. Such a trait is not too uncommon in humanity and does not have any benefit because kindness to those who you will never benefit from only decreases survivability. Ultimately though if we saw someone dying as we were walking down the street we would stop and help them whether we benefit or not. Besides without religion there is nothing awaiting us but death. I may be choosing ignorance but a life as a soulless biological robot, nothing more than an accident, a piece of technology so complex to know the futility of its own existance. That is a life I would not want and that selfish and stupid reason is why I am loyal to God, however I am working on better reasons for myself.

I myself refuse to believe in something because it is easier for me or makes me more happy ... I would much rather know the truth whatever it is

All very nice and good, but it's all an opinion, not fact. There is no external way to corroborate or test this, so it will remain simply something you believe to be true, but not necessarily the truth. This doesn't mean that what you believe is false, as that can not be tested either.
Of course

Another note on "morality exists, therefore god exists"

Let's have some hypothetical social eugenics, shall we?

Take the a group of multiple murderer commiters. Put them in a closed society.

Take a group of peace-loving humanitarians. Put them in a closed society.


Wait 40 years and take a look at the new societies. Which one do you think will have a higher population?

All very nice and good, but it's all an opinion, not fact. There is no external way to corroborate or test this, so it will remain simply something you believe to be true, but not necessarily the truth. This doesn't mean that what you believe is false, as that can not be tested either.
Hence my reason for being agnostic :)

Not necessarily, his justice will be dished out on the Judgement Day, so, until then, we will need a police force to regulate ourselves and those who choose not to follow the law. His days of unleashing his righteous wrath upon sinners while they are still alive are over (sadly).

Whether or not they will be punished in a supposed afterlife is irrelevant as it did not stop them from committing the crime in the first place. Just as the threat of being put in jail did not stop them. If someone wants to commit a crime bad enough they are going to do it no matter what the consequence. Someone who chooses to do the right thing only for fear of eternity in hell is not someone I want to associate with.

Doesn't sound too all-loving to me, sounds like a good business plan. "Hey, ya'll need to beleive in me or you'll toast in hell. Don't beleive? Well, you can come back whenever"

If any God loved me he would accept that I try to do good things for people, and that I care about others, and that my beleiving in him was unimportant to my being a good person. Frankly, any God who thinks otherwise had better send me to hell, cause I want nothing to do with him.

He very well might. Jesus said "If you so much as give a cup of water to one of these because he is my child you shall surely not lose your reward"
Now if you take that in the context that God considers everyone his child then you might be on to somthing. I like being a christian so I'm gonna keep doing it.

And most of us would be just fine if you left us to roast on our own, without adding your nagging and nonsense to it. I'm gonna toast. Good deal. Now leave me alone to toast in peace.
Sorry but I can't do that... religous reasons. :D

Whether or not they will be punished in a supposed afterlife is irrelevant as it did not stop them from committing the crime in the first place. Just as the threat of being put in jail did not stop them. If someone wants to commit a crime bad enough they are going to do it no matter what the consequence. Someone who chooses to do the right thing only for fear of eternity in hell is not someone I want to associate with.


I was basing my argument on the presupposition that God did not exist, so it wouldn't be possible to use him as a deterrent. Fortunately for us, he does exist.

Weremooseland, would you be interested in a 1 vs 1 debate with me in private via telegram or e-mail?

EDIT: subject would be the existance or nonexistance of god

Yes, time started with the creation of the universe and the end of time will be when the universe ceases to be. Anything outside of that would be referred to as eternity, the realm not subject to the principles of time.
And what realm would that be? Since any interaction with the Universe would put it within the realm of time, it would cease to eternal. There could be other Universes with other time-spheres (or in a no-time sphere which would make them unchanging), but they would be completely isolated from us, and therefore not really useful to explain the existance of this Universe.

He very well might. Jesus said "If you so much as give a cup of water to one of these because he is my child you shall surely not lose your reward"
Now if you take that in the context that God considers everyone his child then you might be on to somthing. I like being a christian so I'm gonna keep doing it.

More support to my previous arguement about habituality (Hope you don't mind being a test subject :P)

Sorry but I can't do that... religous reasons. :D

Words that fill every atheist with dread...

There is always Pascal's wager. The fact that by being religious there is the chance of heaven while by disbelief there is little to nothing to gain. It is probably true though that if you are religious for that reason then you go to hell if there is a god. But, hey I honestly believe that if no higher power exists then it does not matter if we all just drink the Koolaid because if all that awaits us is oblivion life and death, truth and lie, do not matter as they are concepts that ultimately connote greater things and materialists can not see past their noses or all they see are noses... err something clever.

I was basing my argument on the presupposition that God did not exist, so it wouldn't be possible to use him as a deterrent. Fortunately for us, he does exist.

I'm saying that with or without the existance of god there will still be crime and there will still be punishment. None of that would change. If tomorrow it was proven God did not exist all the prisons would not shut down and the police force would not disband. We would still be in the exact same place we are now.

Weremooseland, would you be interested in a 1 vs 1 debate with me in private via telegram or e-mail?

EDIT: subject would be the existance or nonexistance of god
I'd love it actually. However, I can't right now cause I've got work in the morning but please drop me a telegram at my NS nation, Weremooseland (imagine that :) )
I'm sure you can understand that I'm not too high on putting my e-mail on the message board.

There is always Pascal's wager. The fact that by being religious there is the chance of heaven while by disbelief there is little to nothing to gain. It is probably true though that if you are religious for that reason then you go to hell if there is a god. But, hey I honestly believe that if no higher power exists then it does not matter if we all just drink the Koolaid because if all that awaits us is oblivion life and death, truth and lie, do not matter as they are concepts that ultimately connote greater things and materialists can not see past their noses or all they see are noses... err something clever.
Agreed, but I prefer to think that if god exists, he would take more of a liking to someone who stands up for their beliefs than a suck-up.

There is always Pascal's wager. The fact that by being religious there is the chance of heaven while by disbelief there is little to nothing to gain. It is probably true though that if you are religious for that reason then you go to hell if there is a god. But, hey I honestly believe that if no higher power exists then it does not matter if we all just drink the Koolaid because if all that awaits us is oblivion life and death, truth and lie, do not matter as they are concepts that ultimately connote greater things and materialists can not see past their noses or all they see are noses... err something clever.
Pascal's wager is basicaly flawed

There is always Pascal's wager. The fact that by being religious there is the chance of heaven while by disbelief there is little to nothing to gain. It is probably true though that if you are religious for that reason then you go to hell if there is a god. But, hey I honestly believe that if no higher power exists then it does not matter if we all just drink the Koolaid because if all that awaits us is oblivion life and death, truth and lie, do not matter as they are concepts that ultimately connote greater things and materialists can not see past their noses or all they see are noses... err something clever.


Pascal's wager is a false argument.

1. Case A, god exists, you beleive. Eternal life at the cost of this one.
2. Case B, god exists, you don't beleive. Living this life truly and freely, and burning in the hypocrite god's hell
3. Case C, god doesn't exist, you beleive. Waste your whole life on a story.
4. Case D; God doesn't exist, you don't beleive. Live your life to fullest, no cost.

Pascal's wager is a false argument.

1. Case A, god exists, you beleive. Eternal life at the cost of this one.
2. Case B, god exists, you don't beleive. Living this life truly and freely, and burning in the hypocrite god's hell
3. Case C, god doesn't exist, you beleive. Waste your whole life on a story.
4. Case D; God doesn't exist, you don't beleive. Live your life to fullest, no cost.
That's useful to know. So if god exists, I should believe in him, but if he doesn't exist I shouldn't believe in him.

There is always Pascal's wager. The fact that by being religious there is the chance of heaven while by disbelief there is little to nothing to gain. It is probably true though that if you are religious for that reason then you go to hell if there is a god. But, hey I honestly believe that if no higher power exists then it does not matter if we all just drink the Koolaid because if all that awaits us is oblivion life and death, truth and lie, do not matter as they are concepts that ultimately connote greater things and materialists can not see past their noses or all they see are noses... err something clever.

Pascal's wager is a textbook example of the false dillema fallacy. It claims that there are only two options when there are three or more.

It states that one should be a christian, because if one is a christian and is right, one gains everything, and if one is a christian and is wrong, one looses nothing.

It neglects the possibility of being a chirstian and wrong and loosing everything because a non-christian religion was right. Ergo, Christianity is no more of a good bet than Islaam or Judeism or Buddhism or Scientology.

Edit: Damn. Beaten to the draw by no less than 4 posts.

Doesn't sound too all-loving to me, sounds like a good business plan. "Hey, ya'll need to beleive in me or you'll toast in hell. Don't beleive? Well, you can come back whenever"

If any God loved me he would accept that I try to do good things for people, and that I care about others, and that my beleiving in him was unimportant to my being a good person. Frankly, any God who thinks otherwise had better send me to hell, cause I want nothing to do with him.



And most of us would be just fine if you left us to roast on our own, without adding your nagging and nonsense to it. I'm gonna toast. Good deal. Now leave me alone to toast in peace.

If you honestly, and truly do good things for people, then you are (subconsciously) living for God. He'll recognize this and won't let you suffer.

I don't think God would let a truly good person who didn't believe in him suffer.

That's useful to know. So if god exists, I should believe in him, but if he doesn't exist I shouldn't believe in him.
Even if he does exist any god that would send someone to hell based on weather they believe in him or not is not someone I would wish to worship

I'd love it actually. However, I can't right now cause I've got work in the morning but please drop me a telegram at my NS nation, Weremooseland (imagine that :) )
I'm sure you can understand that I'm not too high on putting my e-mail on the message board.

I'll telegram you in a moment then. I'm looking forward to the debate. G'night.

If you honestly, and truly do good things for people, then you are (subconsciously) living for God. He'll recognize this and won't let you suffer.

I don't think God would let a truly good person who didn't believe in him suffer.
To bad thats not standard christian doctornine there is a LITTLE evidence for salvation for works AND faith ... a lot for just faith and none (ther then one comment in revelation) for just works

Religion only requires one to act morally which has been argued to be a trait belonging to humanity at large not just to religious people and to suffer under a delusion that mystical beings exist. If the morality thing is not a problem then the only thing that is sacrificed is some small part of your sanity. Now that may sound like a lot but crazy people have done some amazing stuff. Like Van Gogh or Patton, I mean religion is not a major sacrifice so long as you have moral beliefs. Just pick the one that makes ya feel all warm and gushy inside. I mean a belief is a belief, the fact is as well that we will never find the truth until we die and then it won't matter anymore, as well I doubt atheism is spiritually fulfilling and that is one advantage to a religion. Sure some sanity may be lost but life is too long, stupid, and pointless to care about a minor thing like that. As well God works as well or better than the imaginary friend you had when you were 6, and that is good enough for me.

I doubt atheism is spiritually fulfilling and that is one advantage to a religion. Sure some sanity may be lost but life is too long, stupid, and pointless to care about a minor thing like that.
Ah, but atheists can be insane too. One of my best friends is an atheist and he is very insane. He even wrote a song about it. (the insanity, not the atheism) Also, atheism doesn't need to be spiritually fulfilling because atheists don't believe in a spirit, at least in a religious sense.

To bad thats not standard christian doctornine there is a LITTLE evidence for salvation for works AND faith ... a lot for just faith and none (ther then one comment in revelation) for just works

Yeah. It's one of my few personal beliefs that disagrees with the church. In my opinion, hell is not an eternal hellfire, but simply a seperation from God. I think that, when you arrive in heaven, God will ask you a few questions. The first one will be to the extent of "Have you accepted my son as your saviour?". The second will be "What have you done with your life, with the abilities that I have given you, to help what I have created?" These will determine your place and purpose in eternity. Just an opinion.

I think you should give Christianity a try. You seem like a good person, that has just been blinded by the bad things about Christianity, and needs to see the good. God is there for you, and many of us would be willing to help you if you needed such help, either with God, personal problems, or whatever. That's one of the greatest things about my church; we're there for each other, no matter what circumstances.

Whatever decisions you make in life, I hope you find happiness, and help others find happiness in the process. ;)

Religion only requires one to act morally which has been argued to be a trait belonging to humanity at large not just to religious people and to suffer under a delusion that mystical beings exist. If the morality thing is not a problem then the only thing that is sacrificed is some small part of your sanity. Now that may sound like a lot but crazy people have done some amazing stuff. Like Van Gogh or Patton, I mean religion is not a major sacrifice so long as you have moral beliefs. Just pick the one that makes ya feel all warm and gushy inside. I mean a belief is a belief, the fact is as well that we will never find the truth until we die and then it won't matter anymore, as well I doubt atheism is spiritually fulfilling and that is one advantage to a religion. Sure some sanity may be lost but life is too long, stupid, and pointless to care about a minor thing like that. As well God works as well or better than the imaginary friend you had when you were 6, and that is good enough for me.


Wrong me relizing what I am absolutly changed my life ... it helped me be content with who I am and relize what I am feeling

It helped me relize I was responsable for my life and I had to make the best of it that I could rather then relying on belief to get me through in the end

It was more fuffilling then being christian has ever been for me

Look don't let the bible be a major factor in whether you want to have a religion. The bible has too much of it altered but self-worshipping morons who sought to increase their earthly power. I would personally take it with a grain of salt and a lot of consideration. Ultimately remember this, the Bible is older than you are and has probably been influenced by people stupider and more corrupt than you are (stinking catholic church ;)) (kidding!) But anyway, a higher power is most certainly smarter, wiser, and better-looking than anyone you could even devise. Personally my little question is if hell exists. That is major blasphemy I suppose but ultimately people are stupid fools that includes me, you, the pope, even the president (especially the president :D ) . I sort of wonder why he would punish us for being just plain stupid. Of course I am a stupid fool and if everything I believe is just a pack of lies it won't matter even to me.

Having been a "devout atheist" (as one of my friends puts it) since age 14, I think I still manage to be just as moral/immoral as anyone else. I swipe occasional paper clips from the office supply cabinet, but I get through the days as best I can without harming the people around me.

I just can't get myself to buy that there is a deity. I've never been good at accepting things just because people tell me they're so. So many American parents have been trying for twenty years to tell their kids "Just Say No" -- when people tell you drugs are fun, that everyone's smoking cigarettes, that a few beers don't get you drunk, you're supposed to realize that people say things that aren't true. Why then is anyone surprised that some people find it difficult to believe it when they're told that there is a god, that god loves us, that god wants us to be happy as long as we donate ten percent of our income to the church and never, ever use birth control.

It would be comforting to believe that there is a deity that is looking out for things. Claiming that belief would be the path of least resistance; my family is Catholic, and I went to a Catholic grade school. But I read the Bible twice through between the ages of 12 and 14, and I read books and articles written by and about religious leaders, and I just didn't believe. Should I delude myself into belief? That would be like trying to convince myself that I like coffee ice cream better than chocolate. Not true, probably not successful, and certainly not productive.

I don't defile religious icons, I show respect and tolerance for others' beliefs, I attend important events that include religious services (weddings, funerals, bar mitzvahs) without any air of scorn. But if someone asks me my religion, I tell them I'm an atheist, and I'm no more ashamed of it than I am of preferring chocolate ice cream to coffee. How boring life would be if everyone held the same opinions! Don't bash my beliefs, and I won't bash yours; go ahead and try to convert me to your religion, as long as you let me try to convert you to mine.

Yeah. It's one of my few personal beliefs that disagrees with the church. In my opinion, hell is not an eternal hellfire, but simply a seperation from God. I think that, when you arrive in heaven, God will ask you a few questions. The first one will be to the extent of "Have you accepted my son as your saviour?". The second will be "What have you done with your life, with the abilities that I have given you, to help what I have created?" These will determine your place and purpose in eternity. Just an opinion.

I think you should give Christianity a try. You seem like a good person, that has just been blinded by the bad things about Christianity, and needs to see the good. God is there for you, and many of us would be willing to help you if you needed such help, either with God, personal problems, or whatever. That's one of the greatest things about my church; we're there for each other, no matter what circumstances.

Whatever decisions you make in life, I hope you find happiness, and help others find happiness in the process. ;)


Thanks but no thanks ... I have tried that it did not fit me

things out of my past will never let me be part of any organized religion and I do not have the blind faith in the christian god

Maybe deism someday

What caused the miracle at Fatima in 1917?

Ok I am not the best religious person alright. But anyway religion alters little it does not change physical realities if I believe in God but kill puppies I am still a puppy killer and would probably go to hell under my beliefs. Religion is not a crutch and I do not use it as such I only use it as a substitute for psychological counseling until I can afford the real thing ;) . But anyway I like to joke around. I choose religion because I can, and because I am moral and live in a Red state and most people who share my moral beliefs have those beliefs due to their religious convictions. I know my capabilities as well as I think I can. I doubt my religion hurts my cognitive abilities as it balances me and keeps me sane. As well I speak of spiritual fulfillment as part of this life. One thing that is true is that sometimes people who reject religion are left with spiritual holes they may not have the faith to believe but to a certain extent they miss the comfort of religion.

Thanks but no thanks ... I have tried that it did not fit me

things out of my past will never let me be part of any organized religion and I do not have the blind faith in the christian god

Maybe deism someday

Care to share? I'd be willing to help.

What caused the miracle at Fatima in 1917?
I find it amazing that people claim god does miricals
But then I ask why does he not reveil himself to me who obviously is in need
Then all the sudden thoes "miricals" interfere with free will :rolleyes:

What caused the miracle at Fatima in 1917?

Care to elaborate for those of us not up-to-date on miralcles?

Care to share? I'd be willing to help.
Not likly ... years of therapy are still workin on that problem thanks for the offer though

(lets just say I had one of *thoes* priests who had been known by the catholic church to be a molester for more then 20 years before he got to me ... but they did nothing with that knoledge till after he got to me and two other friends ... then was told I was going to hell by the bishop (now dead I believe) if I said a word) sorry dont mean to rant but I am predisposed to trust an organization with very few built in checks thats only really answereable to a god that does not talk back while we are alive

Care to elaborate for those of us not up-to-date on miralcles?
Marry suposedly visited 3 kids

Originally posted by UpwardThrust.
I find it amazing that people claim god [sic] does miricals [sic]
But then I ask why does he not reveil [sic]himself to me who obviously is in need [sic] Then all the sudden thoes [sic] "miricals" [sic] interfere [sic] with free will [sic]

You did not say what caused it.

Sweet Zombie Jesus!!!

It needed to be said. Logic demanded it.

Originally posted by Feil.
Care to elaborate for those of us not up-to-date on miralcles?

The sun danced. Thousands saw it.

The sun danced. Thousands saw it.

Oh come on... It was a REFLECTION.

This was debated on the PC Gamer forums quite some time ago. I won't be getting into it again.

You did not say what caused it.
Ok then I am going to guess the devil rose mary from the dead to randomly walk the earth forever (she is taking a nap for the last 80 + years ... she nees her beauty rest )

The sun danced. Thousands saw it.

Wait...

Was it mary and kids, or the sun and thousands...

And how can a sun dance without people outside of Fatima noticing? If it just danced for those people, it's a mass halucination, not an actual event.

Yeah, actually I think that catholicism has often times let the cause of christianity down due to its corruption. But really religion does not have to be a communal event and ultimately it only matters on a personal level. God seems to have a non-interference policy and the catholic church due to its organization is prone to corruption. Really it does not matter how anyone else interacts with God only how you do. Ultimately Christianity has suffered too much under fools who have not served the religion as they should have. Christianity really is a good religion, it promotes peace, and moral beliefs however all sorts of nut-jobs have corrupted that good message.

It was not a mass halucination. People several miles away saw it.

Wait...

Was it mary and kids, or the sun and thousands...

And how can a sun dance without people outside of Fatima noticing? If it just danced for those people, it's a mass halucination, not an actual event.
Im not sure I did not find the sun dancing refference

here is what I found
http://members.aol.com/bjw1106/marian6.htm

Look,Even if you don't belive there is a God or Gods, it's still good to have faith and hope in a higher being.. Everything is so clear.. Because of faith I (know) why I am on this planet, I know why everything was created, I Have hope in Death instead of fear.... I just think everyone Should belive in SOMETHING all I have to do Is belive and i'm happier!!! I have nothing against Any Religion(I just personaly think Everyone but Muslims, Islams, Jews and Christians Possibly Buhidists Will go to hell!!) And Instead of an ending to your life.. It's a begining!!! You May try to Contradict me with Theorys and science and say THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPEND but I will live on!!!

Look,Even if you don't belive there is a God or Gods, it's still good to have faith and hope in a higher being.. Everything is so clear.. Because of faith I (know) why I am on this planet, I know why everything was created, I Have hope in Death instead of fear.... I just think everyone Should belive in SOMETHING all I have to do Is belive and i'm happier!!! I have nothing against Any Religion(I just personaly think Everyone but Muslims, Islams, Jews and Christians Possibly Buhidists Will go to hell!!) And Instead of an ending to your life.. It's a begining!!! You May try to Contradict me with Theorys and science and say THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPEND but I will live on!!!
You assume the lack of god creates feer

Not so

I bleive the difference I make in this life will live on ... I would rather not live forever existing would get tiring for me

Originally posted by Ethitopia 20x6.
Look,Even if you don't belive there is a God or Gods, it's still good to have faith and hope in a higher being.. Everything is so clear.. Because of faith I (know) why I am on this planet, I know why everything was created, I Have hope in Death instead of fear.... I just think everyone Should belive in SOMETHING all I have to do Is belive and i'm happier!!! I have nothing against Any Religion(I just personaly think Everyone but Muslims, Islams, Jews and Christians Possibly Buhidists Will go to hell!!) And Instead of an ending to your life.. It's a begining!!! You May try to Contradict me with Theorys and science and say THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPEND but I will live on!!!

Don't damage the reputation of decent religious people.

It was not a mass halucination. People several miles away saw it.


It just goes to show how far the people of the world have fallen
that now when insane nutters see things its more often
flying saucers and not suns dancing or some non christian woman
dead nearly 2000 years popping along to chat with children.

Bring back the good old days of religious mania and not ufo mania.

Go back a bit further and they can burn witches and torture and murder
those who don't believe in the goodness of their imaginary friend.

------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll defend your right to believe whatever you believe
and defend my right to have nothing but contempt for it

It was not a mass halucination. People several miles away saw it.

For a planet that has approximately 90 million square miles facing the sun at any given moment, "miles away" is not very impressive. Either people saw it all over the world, or it was a mass halucination, probably induced by reflections or by layers or air with different densities. (For an example, the way a hot grill makes things on the other side seem to shimmer and distort).


As for the appearances of Mary...

Delusions have been proven to exist.
Halucinations have been proven to exist.
Liars have been proven to exist.
God has not been proven to exist.

Not likly ... years of therapy are still workin on that problem thanks for the offer though

(lets just say I had one of *thoes* priests who had been known by the catholic church to be a molester for more then 20 years before he got to me ... but they did nothing with that knoledge till after he got to me and two other friends ... then was told I was going to hell by the bishop (now dead I believe) if I said a word) sorry dont mean to rant but I am predisposed to trust an organization with very few built in checks thats only really answereable to a god that does not talk back while we are alive

I'm terribly sorry that happened to you, and I don't wish that kind of hurt upon anyone. That's an absolutely horrid thing to do to anyone, and no one is deserving of it. I understand that you'd seek therapy, I know that I would, I'ves ought therapy for less. I think you should understand that God didn't drive him to do this; acts like these are not direct results of God; but rather his notion to give us free will. I can understand why you'd abandon the church after something like this, it definetely raises the question "Why would a just God let this happen?" I'm in no way justifying this, but instead of you turning away from God, he wants you to look to him, and to realize that he is always there for you. I know you don't believe, but I think God lets these types of things happen (pain, and suffering) not because he doesn't care, but He wants you to realize that although there is pain and suffering, there's still much good, and much happiness in the world. Happiness and suffering must co-exist; one cannot exist without another.

The Catholic Church, IMO, is not in God's favor right now. They ignore the key principles of the religion. You should realize, too, that one does not have to be part of an organized religion to be religious. I myself have different views than the church, and have taken leafs from other religion's books, like Buddhism, Judaism, and even Islam. The fact is, (IMO) that there is one God, and I worship him with everything I have, and I know I can look to him, and look to what the bible says whatever. God is there for me. You may not be able to physical speak to him, or physically talk to him, but he is there. He really does work in mysterious ways.

I really do hope you find peace. Things like this leave huge, huge scars, as I've been through similar situations. You may never find answers, but you can still find peace.

Look,Even if you don't belive there is a God or Gods, it's still good to have faith and hope in a higher being.. Everything is so clear.. Because of faith I (know) why I am on this planet, I know why everything was created, I Have hope in Death instead of fear.... I just think everyone Should belive in SOMETHING all I have to do Is belive and i'm happier!!! I have nothing against Any Religion(I just personaly think Everyone but Muslims, Islams, Jews and Christians Possibly Buhidists Will go to hell!!) And Instead of an ending to your life.. It's a begining!!! You May try to Contradict me with Theorys and science and say THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPEND but I will live on!!!


Please don't hurt me!
Therefore, God exists.

:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Feil.
For a planet that has approximately 90 million square miles facing the sun at any given moment, "miles away" is not very impressive. Either people saw it all over the world, or it was a mass halucination, probably induced by reflections or by layers or air with different densities. (For an example, the way a hot grill makes things on the other side seem to shimmer and distort).


As for the appearances of Mary...

Delusions have been proven to exist.
Halucinations have been proven to exist.
Liars have been proven to exist.
God has not been proven to exist.

It was a cloudy day, and a hole opened up in the clouds above Fatima.

It was a cloudy day, and a hole opened up in the clouds above Fatima.
It was cloudy over a third the world except for Fatima ... highly doubtfull

I'm terribly sorry that happened to you, and I don't wish that kind of hurt upon anyone. That's an absolutely horrid thing to do to anyone, and no one is deserving of it. I understand that you'd seek therapy, I know that I would, I'ves ought therapy for less. I think you should understand that God didn't drive him to do this; acts like these are not direct results of God; but rather his notion to give us free will. I can understand why you'd abandon the church after something like this, it definetely raises the question "Why would a just God let this happen?" I'm in no way justifying this, but instead of you turning away from God, he wants you to look to him, and to realize that he is always there for you. I know you don't believe, but I think God lets these types of things happen (pain, and suffering) not because he doesn't care, but He wants you to realize that although there is pain and suffering, there's still much good, and much happiness in the world. Happiness and suffering must co-exist; one cannot exist without another.


If a human let this happen to his child when he knew it was happening, it would be criminal neglect and grounds to deprive him of his right to be a parent.

Why should we hold God to a lower moral standard?

Originally posted by UpwardThrust.
It was cloudy over a third the world except for Fatima ... highly doubtfull

It was a miracle.

Please don't hurt me!
Therefore, God exists.

:rolleyes:
ARGUMENT FROM FEAR
(1) If there is no God then we're all going to die.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

or

# ARGUMENT FROM INTIMIDATION
(1) See this bonfire?
(2) Therefore, God exists.

or
ARGUMENT FROM ECONOMY
(1) God exists, you bastards!
(2) Therefore, God exists.

lol (and I like this one)
ARGUMENT FROM INCOMPREHENSIBILITY
(1) Flabble glurk zoom boink blubba snurgleschnortz ping!
(2) No one has ever refuted (1).
(3) Therefore, God exists.

This doesn't save you...

You either have to proove that the whole world saw the sun dance, or that the whole world minus Fatima was cloudy.

It was a miracle.
Yeah but having it solid clouds on at least a third of the world would be mentionable in and of itself

Any documentation on that? or just random theory without ANY support?

Originally posted by Feil.
This doesn't save you...

You either have to proove that the whole world saw the sun dance, or that the whole world minus Fatima was cloudy.

Why is that necessary? Isn't it possible that the miracle was only visible to the people in and around Fatima? God is supposed to be omnipotent.

I'm terribly sorry that happened to you, and I don't wish that kind of hurt upon anyone. That's an absolutely horrid thing to do to anyone, and no one is deserving of it. I understand that you'd seek therapy, I know that I would, I'ves ought therapy for less. I think you should understand that God didn't drive him to do this; acts like these are not direct results of God; but rather his notion to give us free will. I can understand why you'd abandon the church after something like this, it definetely raises the question "Why would a just God let this happen?" I'm in no way justifying this, but instead of you turning away from God, he wants you to look to him, and to realize that he is always there for you. I know you don't believe, but I think God lets these types of things happen (pain, and suffering) not because he doesn't care, but He wants you to realize that although there is pain and suffering, there's still much good, and much happiness in the world. Happiness and suffering must co-exist; one cannot exist without another.

The Catholic Church, IMO, is not in God's favor right now. They ignore the key principles of the religion. You should realize, too, that one does not have to be part of an organized religion to be religious. I myself have different views than the church, and have taken leafs from other religion's books, like Buddhism, Judaism, and even Islam. The fact is, (IMO) that there is one God, and I worship him with everything I have, and I know I can look to him, and look to what the bible says whatever. God is there for me. You may not be able to physical speak to him, or physically talk to him, but he is there. He really does work in mysterious ways.

I really do hope you find peace. Things like this leave huge, huge scars, as I've been through similar situations. You may never find answers, but you can still find peace.


Its fine and thank you

I do not blame god for it ... I never have I blame the person responsable and I have a healthy adverson to the organization that both alowed and protected this behavior ... but I do not believe god did it rather humans did

My loss of faith came later when the christian god did not match up to what my morals were nor my sence of probability
I could be wrong but so be it

This doesn't save you...

You either have to proove that the whole world saw the sun dance, or that the whole world minus Fatima was cloudy.


Whats the point in this particular argument

either the sun dancing was an optical effect or illusion
which could only be viewed from a particular area (likely with optical effects)

or the sun actually moved about
causing absolutely no weird gravitational effects on the earth
thereby proving god exists because only that particular imaginary friend
could cause the one to happen without the other.

Religion and madness are similar
the one difference being, religion has no redeeming qualities.

Why is that necessary? Isn't it possible that the miracle was only visible to the people in and around Fatima? God is supposed to be omnipotent.

So God caused an optical illusion?

Why is that necessary? Isn't it possible that the miracle was only visible to the people in and around Fatima? God is supposed to be omnipotent.
Which is a logical flaw really but oh well doesent seem to faze thoes with belief

Originally posted by Relative Power.
Whats the point in this particular argument

either the sun dancing was an optical effect or illusion
which could only be viewed from a particular area (likely with optical effects)

or the sun actually moved about
causing absolutely no weird gravitational effects on the earth
thereby proving god exists because only that particular imaginary friend
could cause the one to happen without the other.

Religion and madness are similar
the one difference being, religion has no redeeming qualities.

I suppose people had access to equipment capable of making an image that could be seen for several miles in 1917.
They also had a giant fan to blow the clouds away.

I ask any athiest to reconsider growing his own belief that would encompass the founding principles of America. Fight, and BELIEVE in a republic and the ideology that the founding fathers did. It will give you a moral compass and something to believe in.

The problem with atheism is that there is no real moral compass developed. However, I to was an atheist at the age of twenty. I however came upon a greater set of principles than I was ever shown throughout my life by learning about the people who created the US.

Quote:
Atheism does not deny common sense, it only goes against your own personal interpretation of what constitutes "common sense".

Then, do tell all about how the universe created itself. This should be interesting.
Do tell about how god created himself.

I suppose people had access to equipment capable of making an image that could be seen for several miles in 1917.

I suppose you missed the fact that I already pointed out a known effect (distortion of light waves as they passed through layers of air with varying densities combined with motion of the air (and therefore changing angle of the distortion)) that could explain the event.

Ever heard of Occam's razor? Any effect that can be explained using known causes or unknown causes is most likely caused by the known causes.

List of Things that have helped me through my Religion

1.(Knowing why)I was put on this earth to serve God the Almighty maker of Heaven and Earth.
2.I Die A Birth Into Paradice Forever!!
3.Sex Should be love and passionate
4.If you love one of God's beings you love god more If you hate one of god's Beings you hate more.( If you hate your enemies you hate God more)
5. IF the World respected Each others Religions And followed there own to the brink the world would be a better place.
6. If you cannot follow The Ten commandments Then just Pray to be forgiven!
Or if your Catholic(which I'm not) you can tell your priest(scary) :eek:
7. Uhhh this isn't on the list but Even I belive That Catholisism Is a little wack!!!
8. Come on, drinking alchohal to have your sins forgiven? That rules!!!! you HAVE to admit!!!
9.You proboably aren't using your time Anyway so Church, Mass, Uhh Whatever Buhdists Islams Jews and muslims call it are all A better use of your time!!
10. Earth is just a Trial.... Athiests are failing and that makes God Pissed... So you will go To Hell!!! enjoy!!!!!

11. But Athiests are Actually Clean and haven't been tainted by the devil..
12. Devil Relgions are right!! You can do anything you want on earth, but your going to Hell!!
13. Are there Aliens?? We will never know.... The rest of the Universe was Created in 1 day.. He can do that... So They won't be as Pimped out as us.. Wait.. Not Pimped out... Tricked out!
14. I could go on for days, BUT i've got to practice my Cello For Church!!
YAY!!! I finally got off this God Forsaken computer and started Living a REAL LIFE!!
Of Coarse I myself Have some Wrong belifes and spellings and Documented Errors but I AM only Human!

Originally posted by Chambobo.
Do tell about how god created himself.

God is self-existing. He always was. He also created time.

I suppose people had access to equipment capable of making an image that could be seen for several miles in 1917.


The answer to that question would be .. probably

I however was not suggesting any equipment.

I was suggesting that one explanation for any reports of the supposed
miracle would be natural conditions.

You've heard of mirages?

I'm surprised you weren't happy with the proof that god existed.

There are also such things as overheated imaginations
not to mention downright lies.

But the main criteria for such nonsense to continue is gullibility

which you appear to have in spades.

Your a credit to your imaginary friend.

As I have said before everyone has the absolute right to be a cretin.

Originally posted by Feil.
I suppose you missed the fact that I already pointed out a known effect (distortion of light waves as they passed through layers of air with varying densities combined with motion of the air (and therefore changing angle of the distortion)) that could explain the event.

Ever heard of Occam's razor? Any effect that can be explained using known causes or unknown causes is most likely caused by the known causes.

Has that ever happened before? And if it did, was it predicted?

List of Things that have helped me through my Religion

1.(Knowing why)I was put on this earth to serve God the Almighty maker of Heaven and Earth.
2.I Die A Birth Into Paradice Forever!!
3.Sex Should be love and passionate
4.If you love one of God's beings you love god more If you hate one of god's Beings you hate more.( If you hate your enemies you hate God more)
5. IF the World respected Each others Religions And followed there own to the brink the world would be a better place.
6. If you cannot follow The Ten commandments Then just Pray to be forgiven!
Or if your Catholic(which I'm not) you can tell your priest(scary) :eek:
7. Uhhh this isn't on the list but Even I belive That Catholisism Is a little wack!!!
8. Come on, drinking alchohal to have your sins forgiven? That rules!!!! you HAVE to admit!!!
9.You proboably aren't using your time Anyway so Church, Mass, Uhh Whatever Buhdists Islams Jews and muslims call it are all A better use of your time!!
10. Earth is just a Trial.... Athiests are failing and that makes God Pissed... So you will go To Hell!!! enjoy!!!!!

11. But Athiests are Actually Clean and haven't been tainted by the devil..
12. Devil Relgions are right!! You can do anything you want on earth, but your going to Hell!!
13. Are there Aliens?? We will never know.... The rest of the Universe was Created in 1 day.. He can do that... So They won't be as Pimped out as us.. Wait.. Not Pimped out... Tricked out!
14. I could go on for days, BUT i've got to practice my Cello For Church!!
YAY!!! I finally got off this God Forsaken computer and started Living a REAL LIFE!!
Of Coarse I myself Have some Wrong belifes and spellings and Documented Errors but I AM only Human!

Try using some reasoning next time, plzkthx.

Originally posted by Relative Power.
The answer to that question would be .. probably

I however was not suggesting any equipment.

I was suggesting that one explanation for any reports of the supposed
miracle would be natural conditions.

You've heard of mirages?

I'm surprised you weren't happy with the proof that god existed.

There are also such things as overheated imaginations
not to mention downright lies.

But the main criteria for such nonsense to continue is gullibility

which you appear to have in spades.

Your a credit to your imaginary friend.

As I have said before everyone has the absolute right to be a cretin.

Did you miss me when I said that thousands saw it? And does everyone have the absolute right to make typos?

I ask any athiest to reconsider growing his own belief that would encompass the founding principles of America. Fight, and BELIEVE in a republic and the ideology that the founding fathers did. It will give you a moral compass and something to believe in.

The problem with atheism is that there is no real moral compass developed. However, I to was an atheist at the age of twenty. I however came upon a greater set of principles than I was ever shown throughout my life by learning about the people who created the US.

It is true that many religions have a set of morals laced into them, but I see the bible as more of an acient code of laws that says if you don't follow you're dambed to eternal misery. Apparently back when they were writing laws it was easier to say "god told me to write these and if you don't follow them you're dambed to hell" then "these are the laws, live with it."

And saying that christianity is a founding principal of america because the framers were christen is like saying communism is a jewish sect.

I ask any athiest to reconsider growing his own belief that would encompass the founding principles of America. Fight, and BELIEVE in a republic and the ideology that the founding fathers did. It will give you a moral compass and something to believe in.

The problem with atheism is that there is no real moral compass developed. However, I to was an atheist at the age of twenty. I however came upon a greater set of principles than I was ever shown throughout my life by learning about the people who created the US.


Such principles as the burning of witches and genocide of the original inhabitants

A nation built on such sound morals must be a sight for sore eyes.

When you speak of moral compass I am presuming you mean the type
with two sharp points...
probably explains the sore eyes then

Did you miss me when I said that thousands saw it? And does everyone have the absolute right to make typos?
Yes they do have that right

God is self-existing. He always was. He also created time.

God is self existing because he CAN self exist, since he is meta-physical he is no subject to our physical laws, therefore, he is able to be self-existing.

We will never be able to understand what, or how, God is, until we die.

you can believe that god has always existed but not that the universe has?
great logic.

Originally posted by Haloman.
God is self existing because he CAN self exist, since he is meta-physical he is no subject to our physical laws, therefore, he is able to be self-existing.

We will never be able to understand what, or how, God is, until we die.

We will not understand God when we die, because He is infinite. We will have a less imperfect understanding.

Ok.. I Don't NEED Proof... That would spoil my eternal Happiness!! :) :)
And I'm sure there is proof But Even as I A Christian Belive Your wasting your time and effort I just SEE proof all around me... Athiest might have 120 years of happiness But I will have an eternity!! I Don't Care WTF you say!

Originally posted by Chambobo.
you can believe that god has always existed but not that the universe has?
great logic.

God has always existed because time does not apply for Him.

And the thread has come full circle. Time for bed. Goodnight.

what if this was all an illusion? what if our senses were just lying to us and nothing we see or feel is real? What if "The Matrix" was based off of budhism?

The atheists have stopped talking about Fatima.

God has always existed because time does not apply for Him.
so he is more of a percieved presence then a physical one?

Originally posted by Chambobo.
what if this was all an illusion? what if our senses were just lying to us and nothing we see or feel is real? What if "The Matrix" was based off of budhism?

If it is an illusion, then what is real? Something has to be.

Ok.. I Don't NEED Proof... That would spoil my eternal Happiness!! :) :)
And I'm sure there is proof But Even as I A Christian Belive Your wasting your time and effort I just SEE proof all around me... Athiest might have 120 years of happiness But I will have an eternity!! I Don't Care WTF you say!
Just dont expect your

ARGUMENT FROM STAR TREK
(1) You will be assimilated.
(2) All your salvations belong to us.
(3) Resistance is futile.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

to convince us

Ok.. I Don't NEED Proof... That would spoil my eternal Happiness!! :) :)
And I'm sure there is proof But Even as I A Christian Belive Your wasting your time and effort I just SEE proof all around me... Athiest might have 120 years of happiness But I will have an eternity!! I Don't Care WTF you say!

My god... I try to go to sleep, then I see this beautiful bit of idiocy.

I BLEIVE IN THE PINK FLUFFY UNICORN! It doesn't matter if there is no proof because I BELIEVE! I don't Care WTF you say beacause when I go to heaven the pfu will help me and make me happy forever! I jsut SEE proof all around me... Other may have happyness for life but in heavy I will have happiness forever!!

Ok.. I Don't NEED Proof... That would spoil my eternal Happiness!! :) :)
And I'm sure there is proof But Even as I A Christian Belive Your wasting your time and effort I just SEE proof all around me... Athiest might have 120 years of happiness But I will have an eternity!! I Don't Care WTF you say!
And How God Created HImself? Well How did Nothingness Become everything according to the big Bang? There is a theory that There is one spot in the universe that fisics don't apply, Matter is created from nothing, And that my dear Watson Is the focal point of Where God came from.. Your scientists just Dumbly say "The Big Bang" but What Caused the big bang if there Where no Adams?? GOD!! God is a Force Like "The Force" But Waaaay cooler!!

God has always existed because time does not apply for Him.


People who believe in a single omnipotent god can believe anything they like about them.(well some versions have the 3 in 1 type of god so them could apply)

The entire purpose of the god is to be the ultimate answer.

Don't try and figure out the laws of the universe because god made
them and can change them anytime he wants
The answer to any great question is because god did it

It's like some simpleton child whose only concept of numbers is 1
therefore the answer to any equation has to be 1
Other numbers are meaningless to them , there is little point in arguing with
them, as these people, at least the ones here, are not children and their
ignorance is wilful.

Originally posted by Feil.
My god... I try to go to sleep, then I see this beautiful bit of idiocy.

I BLEIVE IN THE PINK FLUFFY UNICORN! It doesn't matter if there is no proof because I BELIEVE! I don't Care WTF you say beacause when I go to heaven the pfu will help me and make me happy forever! I jsut SEE proof all around me... Other may have happyness for life but in heavy I will have happiness forever!!

I thought you said you were going to bed now. That would have been too good.

The atheists have stopped talking about Fatima.
Because it is pointless god suposingly being omni potent you can just keep adding nonsensical conditions to the mirical untill it reaches a point where it coveres every possibility

Does not mean you are right it just means that having the main charicter in your story be able to do anything gives you flexability when making the story line up

so he is more of a percieved presence then a physical one?

Where did you get that from? You're right. God is not a physical presence. But that doesn't mean it isn't real. It's supernatural. It's metaphysical.